Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Jace on 22 Oct 2014, 10:22
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Why don't they exist? How is it that nobody has really made a 'gang' RP corp? Angels are pervy twats in business suits, Guristas are militaristic pirate insanity, Raiders vant to suck ur blood, Serpentis are the drug dealers by the playground, Thukkers are the tribal-respectable ones. No gangbangers. This should be remedied.
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Jace, can you clarify what you mean by gangbanger? If you mean to say a person commonly associated with uneducated inmates. Maybe you can look into True Power and Sansha loyalists. Otherwise, I think gangbangers as we know them today probably do not have the aptitude to pass capsuleer training.
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:?:
I don't really understand what you're asking ?
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Define gangbanger and we'll talk.
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Okay, I'll elaborate a bit more.
The Angel Cartel is to some extent a space mafia. Raiders are an occult group. Guristas are a sort of an ex-military third-army of criminals. Serpentis are the high-end luxury drug dealer trope. Thukkers are Thukkers.
But there isn't really a 'gang' faction nor can I recall any RPers ever trying to create one. By gang I mean containing the features commonly associated with street gangs in real life: somewhat amorphous structure and organization, consisting of linked cells, a prescient subcultural moral code, the EVE equivalent of fairly low-tech (which obviously is relative, this is EVE after all), often stemming from and thriving off of poverty-induced environments, etc. Guristas are the closest to me to the gang 'feel,' but their extreme hi-tech and militarism move them away from it. So if you take Maras in real life and scale down the size of operation and organization (they are getting to be more of a cartel than gang, these days).
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I think the Angels and Serpentis are closest to what you are looking for.
While the core command of the Cartel has a well-earned reputation as 'pervs twats in business suits', the low-level enforcers and distributors are probably far closer to what you are imagining: A generally limited command structure with very little oversight so long as dues are paid up the command chain, a culture heavily influenced by and formed in the poverty and ghettos in the Federation and State, etc...
Remember that what we see as capsuleers are the guys flying spaceships, which even at the lowest is already a step up from the low-level enforcers and distributors operating on planets and stations.
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I think the Angels and Serpentis are closest to what you are looking for.
While the core command of the Cartel has a well-earned reputation as 'pervs twats in business suits', the low-level enforcers and distributors are probably far closer to what you are imagining: A generally limited command structure with very little oversight so long as dues are paid up the command chain, a culture heavily influenced by and formed in the poverty and ghettos in the Federation and State, etc...
Remember that what we see as capsuleers are the guys flying spaceships, which even at the lowest is already a step up from the low-level enforcers and distributors operating on planets and stations.
I can see that. For some reason I have always interpreted the Cartel as trying to be the EVE Italian Mafia. Fingers in every pie, abnormally organized, loved by certain locals due to their protection and assistance, attempting to keep a pretty business-like appearance most of the time.
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like, you mean, why aren't there angel cartel rp'ers who fly ghetto fit Rifters, instead of angel cartel rp'ers who fly bling Cynabals ?
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like, you mean, why aren't there angel cartel rp'ers who fly ghetto fit Rifters, instead of angel cartel rp'ers who fly bling Cynabals ?
No, I am talking more about the 'feel' and lore around the criminal factions.
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Once you're a capsuleer, the "street" factor sort of goes away. When you can't sneeze without spraying enough money to buy every street you ever walked on, the gang factor sort of dies off.
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Okay, I'll elaborate a bit more.
The Angel Cartel is to some extent a space mafia. Raiders are an occult group. Guristas are a sort of an ex-military third-army of criminals. Serpentis are the high-end luxury drug dealer trope. Thukkers are Thukkers.
But there isn't really a 'gang' faction nor can I recall any RPers ever trying to create one. By gang I mean containing the features commonly associated with street gangs in real life: somewhat amorphous structure and organization, consisting of linked cells, a prescient subcultural moral code, the EVE equivalent of fairly low-tech (which obviously is relative, this is EVE after all), often stemming from and thriving off of poverty-induced environments, etc. Guristas are the closest to me to the gang 'feel,' but their extreme hi-tech and militarism move them away from it. So if you take Maras in real life and scale down the size of operation and organization (they are getting to be more of a cartel than gang, these days).
Respectfully Jace, even if they aren't specifically "rp'ers" in the backstage sense, i think a lot of low sec pirate gangs fit the "gang" / "thug" bill to a tee (except the 'poverty' part)
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I think quite a lot of capsuleer groups operate with a gang-like structure. Especially pirate corps. Instead of streets though you have systems or regions.
As far as major in-universe gangs go, you should look at the Maru. They're a major Republic gang, large enough to have interstellar impact but not quite at the level of the actual pirate empires. At least for me, their description makes them sound similar to the various racially-motivated gangs that exist RL (Aryan Brotherhood, Latin Kings, MS-13, etc).
The Maru Rebels were once part of a gang of pirates who turned into a sinister terrorist network claiming to fight for Minmatar freedom. In fact, they're little more a ruthless gang of criminals dealing in the black market, smuggling, and extortion and blackmail, even sometimes working as hired assassins. Their official agenda is to murder as many citizens of the Amarr nations as possible ― i.e., Amarr Empire, Ammatar, and Khanid Kingdom ― hoping to force them to withdraw eventually from historically Minmatar systems currently under Amarr control. The Minmatar Republic leadership has denounced them as being cutthroats and criminals even though they support Republic goals, and has put up a sizable bounty on their leader's head. But even so, the Rebels do maintain some support within the Minmatar Republic, which has allowed them certain freedoms other criminal networks do not have.
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Fair enough, folks. Perhaps the feel I am wondering about just doesn't work in the setting.
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Fair enough, folks. Perhaps the feel I am wondering about just doesn't work in the setting.
Not necessarily for capsuleers themselves, but their low-level baseliner employees, yes.
Criminal type capsuleers are at the top of the criminal enterprise pyramids. They are sitting on top of a pyramid of less and less organized crime that feeds into their coffers. So 'kingpin' capsuleer at the top, criminal bosses below, down and down to the street gangs you mention.
S. for example had her cultists and non-afiliated baseliners running all sorts of criminal enterprises on low sec planets, from narcotics manufacturing, brothels, and run of the mill criminal gangs. The street gang ripping off banks and robbing people might not even know who they are really working for, but their profits get fed into their bosses, who feed it to their bosses, who eventually report to the capsuleer.
Also:
(http://media1.break.com/breakstudios/2011/11/2/old%20school%20gang%20bang.jpg)
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It works just fine in the setting. However you sort of have to go 'lower' than the capsuleer caste to get it. Poverty is not an issue for capsuleers.
Samira's backstory includes issues with a local street gang, prior to her becoming a capsuleer. For capsuleers, where wealth is prominent, you're more likely to be dealing with mafias and indeed most of nullsec is dominated by organizations with very mafia-like organizations.
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Yeah, and perhaps the sort of structure I am describing is not particularly detachable from the poverty aspect that it is almost always associated with in real life. Even for some of the more renowned gangs in real life, when their leadership or particular cells hit a certain level of 'success' they maintain a certain aspect of the previous culture. To me, that is part of what distinguishes gangs and the more mafia-esque organizations. The latter like to look like businessmen when they are successful, the former tend to maintain their subcultural identity throughout the varying levels of success.
But in the case of EVE, well, as you have both said there are capsuleers at the top. There are just certain subcultural tropes that are difficult to pull off or even subsist within when you are flying around in half a billion ISK worth of assets.
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Tbh I didn't know that word could be used to describe something like that. You learn something everyday. Was fearing the worse when I read thread title. :lol:
For RP groups, maybe some fitted the bill more than others. Some characters with those type of background more than RP corps, but some RP corps were close enough I think.
I think quite a lot of capsuleer groups operate with a gang-like structure. Especially pirate corps. Instead of streets though you have systems or regions.
That's pretty much how I see it yes.
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This usage of the term existed long before the perverted one you were interpreting.
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I think the Angels and Serpentis are closest to what you are looking for.
While the core command of the Cartel has a well-earned reputation as 'pervs twats in business suits', the low-level enforcers and distributors are probably far closer to what you are imagining: A generally limited command structure with very little oversight so long as dues are paid up the command chain, a culture heavily influenced by and formed in the poverty and ghettos in the Federation and State, etc...
Remember that what we see as capsuleers are the guys flying spaceships, which even at the lowest is already a step up from the low-level enforcers and distributors operating on planets and stations.
This would be my interpretation as well, Saede in particular grew up in extreme poverty on the streets, and was swept into the Cartel in the ways any poor teenager would get pulled into a gang.
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Tuskers.
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You might find it useful to use a street gang affiliated background for a capsuleer character.
Growing up in a rough way can be useful character background.
Not quite equivalent, but much of the Warhammer 40k lore has entire city 'hive' planets full of vicious street gangs; some of the space marine chapters recruit from these 'rough' planets, figuring anyone who can survive and thrive in such places is a good candidate for training. They do the same thing with all manor of 'fantasty' settings, flying down and scooping up recruits from pre-industrial or early firearms sorts of civilizations.
I imagine more than a few capsuleers out there who grew up in backward, dangerous, 'primative' locations who eventually found themselves in civilization and capsule compatible.
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You might find it useful to use a street gang affiliated background for a capsuleer character.
Growing up in a rough way can be useful character background.
Not quite equivalent, but much of the Warhammer 40k lore has entire city 'hive' planets full of vicious street gangs; some of the space marine chapters recruit from these 'rough' planets, figuring anyone who can survive and thrive in such places is a good candidate for training. They do the same thing with all manor of 'fantasty' settings, flying down and scooping up recruits from pre-industrial or early firearms sorts of civilizations.
I imagine more than a few capsuleers out there who grew up in backward, dangerous, 'primative' locations who eventually found themselves in civilization and capsule compatible.
Mmhm, yeah. I have one of my alts that has that sort of backstory. It helps.
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This usage of the term existed long before the perverted one you were interpreting.
Dunno lol, i'm not a native.
Couldn't even find the original meaning on wiki and stuff afterwise.
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I think quite a lot of capsuleer groups operate with a gang-like structure. Especially pirate corps. Instead of streets though you have systems or regions.
This does it for me. Corp I started with fit the description nicely.
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Uneducated, poor street hoods, as a group, generally arent up on things like engineering, physics, large group cohesion and social engineering, etc needed to fly and operate and maintain an advanced combat spaceship.
Convincing angry, uneducated, disenfranchised youth to perform various street crime is easy. Having them serve as skilled, disciplined crews of a state of the art warship is likely much, much harder without them losing the very elements that make them a street gang in the first place.
Can you take street gangers and turn them into soldiers? Sure, happens all the time, but generally they stop acting like hoods and start acting like soldiers. But taking say the Gangster Disciples and trying to get them to operate high end combat aircraft would likely end disastrously (and humorously).
Are there criminal organizations with that kind of technical know-how in real life? Sure. But the organizations who do are much more sophisticated than the typical gangbanger set. The South American cartels are chalk-full of former military and dirty spec ops types, the Russian mafia is full of former KGB and GRU operatives, etc.
Even the street hood who fights from the ground up rarely holds onto gangbanger mentality after he "makes it", in fact it was likely his ability to look beyond the limited world view of being a street hood that helped him advance in the first place.
Basically, if a gangbanger had the technical, scientific, and social skills needed to be an effective crew member of a combat spacecraft, he or she would likely not be a gangbanger anymore. They would either graduate to the upper echelon of criminal organizations (i.e. RL Mafia, EVE Guristas, etc), or they parley those skills into a productive career as either a legit military personnel or something more conventional that likely pays better and less likely to get them shot.
Short Answer: EVE gangbangers exist....probably in the untold billions. They probably serve as street muscle for the various syndicates. They just dont pilot or crew warships. Theyre pawns, not kings.
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Gottii stahp poasting and log in. Come wardec softies with us.
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Uneducated, poor street hoods, as a group, generally arent up on things like engineering, physics, large group cohesion and social engineering, etc needed to fly and operate and maintain an advanced combat spaceship.
Convincing angry, uneducated, disenfranchised youth to perform various street crime is easy. Having them serve as skilled, disciplined crews of a state of the art warship is likely much, much harder without them losing the very elements that make them a street gang in the first place.
Can you take street gangers and turn them into soldiers? Sure, happens all the time, but generally they stop acting like hoods and start acting like soldiers. But taking say the Gangster Disciples and trying to get them to operate high end combat aircraft would likely end disastrously (and humorously).
Are there criminal organizations with that kind of technical know-how in real life? Sure. But the organizations who do are much more sophisticated than the typical gangbanger set. The South American cartels are chalk-full of former military and dirty spec ops types, the Russian mafia is full of former KGB and GRU operatives, etc.
Even the street hood who fights from the ground up rarely holds onto gangbanger mentality after he "makes it", in fact it was likely his ability to look beyond the limited world view of being a street hood that helped him advance in the first place.
Basically, if a gangbanger had the technical, scientific, and social skills needed to be an effective crew member of a combat spacecraft, he or she would likely not be a gangbanger anymore. They would either graduate to the upper echelon of criminal organizations (i.e. RL Mafia, EVE Guristas, etc), or they parley those skills into a productive career as either a legit military personnel or something more conventional that likely pays better and less likely to get them shot.
Short Answer: EVE gangbangers exist....probably in the untold billions. They probably serve as street muscle for the various syndicates. They just dont pilot or crew warships. Theyre pawns, not kings.
I understand your point and it makes sense. I have just been trying to figure out the plausibility (at least I have started thinking about it now that everyone has replied) of somehow keeping that sort of milieu alive within the capsuleer dynamic. If such a thing can be done, if it can what it would look like besides just lip service fluff prose about their baseliner members, etc. I'll think on it some more.
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The closest you are going to get to Gangbangers will be with the Goons from Eve: True Stories comic series. Seriously, narcisst? That's not a word! You have to be an uneducated gutter thrash to even use it with regularity.
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I fully agree with Gotti (damn, stop thinking like me :lol:)
IMHO the easiest explanation is, that submarginal elements simply lack funding to access the space and space piracy, resorting to primitive dirt- and station-side debauchery.
When these elements get access to space, they are either suppressed by those with money and power, or kicked back to slums.
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I could see organizations like the Cartel or even Serps finding those with potential among their subsidiary gangs on planets, moons, and stations and giving them further training. After all, it isn't as if those who join 'gang' type organizations are entirely uniform. I'm sure that in the less nice parts of the cluster, it is just one of the few ways to support yourself among certain parts of society - or at least it promises to give you more resources than other avenues.
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I agree with Silver, up to a point. Once a character has come to the point of joining the elite of the elite, Capsuleers, I think they've gone beyond the ganger archetype, even if they might retain some of the mentality.
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Well, it might be more like they got to that point, but for a certain personality type, once they had their podder license that would mean the disciplined part of their life is over, and they might revert to a more 'gang-like' attitude. Particularly if they came up through a criminal syndicate. 'I worked for this, and now it's my payday'.
Edit: It also might be cultural. PArticularly in a group like the Cartel, (and in this it is probably something like RL very powerful criminal organizations) you have to maintain a certain attitude/not show weakness/etc, even if the actual running of the thing means you have to also be smart and a certain sort of 'porofessional'.
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I could see organizations like the Cartel or even Serps finding those with potential among their subsidiary gangs on planets, moons, and stations and giving them further training. After all, it isn't as if those who join 'gang' type organizations are entirely uniform. I'm sure that in the less nice parts of the cluster, it is just one of the few ways to support yourself among certain parts of society - or at least it promises to give you more resources than other avenues.
I am very sure this is a given. They screen their thugs and hoodlums for those with vision, ambition and ability, and then pick them up and make them an offer. If accepted and successful, they will shed their gangbanger skin and become a Space Don or something.
I mean, where else are they going to recruit from?
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Well, there are also disgraced/disappointed members of legitimate organizations. Even though that seems to be more the Gurista's thing I'm sure the other criminal syndicates engage in it also.
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Well, as others have mentioned, once you get into the criminal syndicate level of things, you tend to have to shed the more "primitive" kind of gang mentality in favor of more disciplined cooperation/organization. Cartels and syndicates in real life often tend to use gangs and gangmembers, but are primarily composed of people with training or skills suitable for the life. It's an extremely demanding life to live, after all.
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Well, as others have mentioned, once you get into the criminal syndicate level of things, you tend to have to shed the more "primitive" kind of gang mentality in favor of more disciplined cooperation/organization. Cartels and syndicates in real life often tend to use gangs and gangmembers, but are primarily composed of people with training or skills suitable for the life. It's an extremely demanding life to live, after all.
Only the Godfather can make an offer you can't refuse.
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Well, as others have mentioned, once you get into the criminal syndicate level of things, you tend to have to shed the more "primitive" kind of gang mentality in favor of more disciplined cooperation/organization. Cartels and syndicates in real life often tend to use gangs and gangmembers, but are primarily composed of people with training or skills suitable for the life. It's an extremely demanding life to live, after all.
This is actually part of what I had in mind, to an extent - a disorganized, inefficient group that really aren't all that organized or disciplined. I like everyone's input though, nice to see what the different impressions are of the terms and concepts.
Though this is all rather moot as far as my original pondering goes, since most of my alts are going to be unsubbed soon.
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Seems to me that quite a few of the low sec denizens operate more than a little like what you are talking about. They aren't connected to any lore group directly, but they definitely fill the nitch you are describing and act similarly.
It seems to me that it doesn't make much sense for people wanting to play that sort of a character to look to NPC organizations. As has been pointed out here, the NPC organizations have to be too organized and big to really make it into space in a big way. It makes good RP sense that the gangs of EVE are developing inside the capsuleer economy and are independent from non-capsuleer organizations.
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Yeah, it does make sense. I think a lot of it also has to do with internet culture, in a way. When people in-games think of criminal organizations they want to emulate, they look to pirates, mafia, black ops, and other groups - not gangs.
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There are the Es and Whizz drug dealers, they might come pretty close to what you are thinking.
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There are the Es and Whizz drug dealers, they might come pretty close to what you are thinking.
My brothers in profit :3
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Thanks for the replies, folks. Fun discussion. Kind of moot now that I'm letting the character I had in mind lapse into unsub now that I am focusing on Jace again, but enough to think about for the future someday.