Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: V. Gesakaarin on 25 Nov 2013, 00:22
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This is a thought that occurred to me while discussing the Amarr Scriptures elsewhere, but is there a possibility that in the Empire higher education might have a religious aspect to it? What I mean is that, instead of universities as we think of them, do Amarr universities teach the scientific doctrines within the scriptures? Do you go to Hedion University and become something like an ordained minister of high energy physics, for example? Does Amarrian peer review have a scriptural aspect to it? That it has to pass certain scientific standards of rigor to be included in the scriptures?
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Certainly possible, if not likely.
I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but the parallel to the medieval ages has already been drawn: in those times, religious people were at the forefront of research, because they were educated, and they saw it their holy duty to understand God's world better.
The problem arises when scientific discovery collides with dogma (something researchers in Soviet Russia also had to battle) - then something has to give.
Not knowing the PF, I don't know where the Amarr fall, but I can imagine a faith where the mortal representatives do not claim to have all the knowledge or to be infallible (unlike Earthen religious leaders of all kind). If one of the basic understandings of Amarrian faith is that the Scriptures will always be incomplete, and that only the most rigorously reviewed findings are worthy to be added, I can see this combination of science and religion actually work.
An un-dogmatic religion - there's a thought.
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This is a thought that occurred to me while discussing the Amarr Scriptures elsewhere, but is there a possibility that in the Empire higher education might have a religious aspect to it? What I mean is that, instead of universities as we think of them, do Amarr universities teach the scientific doctrines within the scriptures? Do you go to Hedion University and become something like an ordained minister of high energy physics, for example? Does Amarrian peer review have a scriptural aspect to it? That it has to pass certain scientific standards of rigor to be included in the scriptures?
Yeah, it's a common theme that, as opposed to being different disciplines, religion permeates all aspects of Amarrian society. That also means that the religion is much more scientific and interpretive. Don't let the titles and ceremonies that are largely drawn from strict Catholic and Muslim backgrounds fool you. They may have deacons, but the Amarrian Empire definitely hearkens back to a time in history when religious people were also very often also scientists.
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There is still a bit of dogma in the Empire, which is only logical considering how conservative it can be on things. One just has to look at the sacred flesh debate and that kind of things.
The difference between the Amarr and most churches of RL History lies in the fact that the latter often did everything to kill new dangerous ideas out of dogma, where the Amarr have that duality where conservatism and traditions of a stable millenia old empire will always question the necessity of a new idea, and if that is not actually heresy (going against the current scripture canon), but will also consider it out of the other dogma, the scientific one based on knowledge.
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(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/19952184.jpg)
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Don't know how anyone else handled it, but Arist is a psychologist/spiritual counselor because in my viewpoint in Amarr society the two would not be separate things. Her training means "disassociative disorder == spiritual crisis".
In the real world these things are considered separate by scientists because of the concept of Dualism, where the "unseen" was assigned to the church and the "seen" as was assigned to the scientists, and the two shall never meet so that the Church could stop chopping firewood to burn all these smartypants saying that the the Earth wasn't in the center of the universe. In my own head I just assigned the idea of unity - where the seen AND the unseen are all pure radiations from the Divine and should not be treated as separate and incompatable thought-forms, and because I'm Khanid and can do what I want with the written Scriptures as displayed in the Wiki, that all living entities are in a procession to Ascendancy to re-join the broken circle which was "God is Man". Therefore, when a scientist invents a new MWD, where did that though come from? "Thank the Lord".
The Theology Council and that stuff, I can't comment on it, being the half crazed Khanid Zealot I RP. ;) But mainly it functions as a valve so that the Empire can proceed (albeit slowly) without fracturing tradition. If you have a bit of unfired clay and bend it too quickly, it will fracture. Do it slowly, with tools and patience and you have created a new shape from an old one.
The Scriptures are not just those couple thousand words in the Wiki. No one person can read them in their lifetime. Then there's that cool as hell shit like the Book of Truths. It's also a living growing breathing doctrine - again stopgapped by the Theology council who gets to decide which new thought process from which new Priest of this or that fits in. So, does it mesh with science? In my head, dman straight. The Theology Council is the Old Boys Network, your Peer Reviewers, who take your paper and go "bull shit - UNFUNDED!" or "Brilliant! FUNDED! PUBLISHED! NOBLE PRIZE THIS!"
Revelation burrows through the material world, devours creation's soil, digests the thoughtless void, and produces significance with God's grace. From emptiness comes meaning, essence from existence, soul from matter.
Is God through the wormhole? Did God grant us this boon, this new technology, a revelation from on high? These weapons are God's new prophecy, domain, and blessing. Let us use God's grace and prepare New Eden. We are God's soldiers, weapons, glory. Our people are God's army. Together, we are the legion.
-The Heresies of Hinketsu
Amarr Strategic Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% Reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules per level.
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Just a small heads ups: Somen of the world best scientists are katholic men of the cloth. Especially the Jesuits have produced and still do produce some of the greatest astrophysicists of our world. The katholic dogma since Aquinas is that there are two books of God: The Bible and nature.
In katholicism there is no dichotomy of science and religion, nor is it anywhere else, tbh, but in metaphysical naturalism - which is championed by the modern evangelical atheists.
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A number of philosophers and thinkers of the middle ages—priests, rabbis and scientists alike—felt it was not necessary to interpret scripture in a literal manner that was at odds with the findings of science, but rather should be read in a way that is supported by the knowledge we have. Among them were St. Augustine of Hippo, Moses Maimonides, and (much earlier yet) Philo of Alexandria.
I think the Amarr Empire would probably have a very similar approach when rationalizing religion and science.
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(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/19952184.jpg)
You know what is funny? My character, a Minmatar, actually does as advised by the AdMech in the pic. Of course, not actually a prayer. More like a ritual really, and incorporated into his repair-work.
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Just a small heads ups: Somen of the world best scientists are katholic men of the cloth. Especially the Jesuits have produced and still do produce some of the greatest astrophysicists of our world. The katholic dogma since Aquinas is that there are two books of God: The Bible and nature.
In katholicism there is no dichotomy of science and religion, nor is it anywhere else, tbh, but in metaphysical naturalism - which is championed by the modern evangelical atheists.
I do not disagree that Catholic (English spelling), especially Jesuit, priest/monks are also scientist and do not have issues with a dichotomy between science and faith.
I do disagree with the statement that there are not others beyond evangelical atheists who establish a dichotomy of science and religion. In the United States, the dichotomy is enforced by "evangelical Christians"*. While a Catholic priest/scientist does not see a dichotomy between Darwin's Theory of Evolution and their creation beliefs, there are plenty of "evangelical Christians" in modern America who do. They tend to take numerous components of the New International Version of the Old and New Testament as true as written without any room for allegory or interpretation.
*Quotes are appropriate, it is what they call themselves, despite their own failure to live up to their saviors teachings.
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Just a small heads ups: Somen of the world best scientists are katholic men of the cloth. Especially the Jesuits have produced and still do produce some of the greatest astrophysicists of our world. The katholic dogma since Aquinas is that there are two books of God: The Bible and nature.
In katholicism there is no dichotomy of science and religion, nor is it anywhere else, tbh, but in metaphysical naturalism - which is championed by the modern evangelical atheists.
I do not disagree that Catholic (English spelling), especially Jesuit, priest/monks are also scientist and do not have issues with a dichotomy between science and faith.
I do disagree with the statement that there are not others beyond evangelical atheists who establish a dichotomy of science and religion. In the United States, the dichotomy is enforced by "evangelical Christians"*. While a Catholic priest/scientist does not see a dichotomy between Darwin's Theory of Evolution and their creation beliefs, there are plenty of "evangelical Christians" in modern America who do. They tend to take numerous components of the New International Version of the Old and New Testament as true as written without any room for allegory or interpretation.
*Quotes are appropriate, it is what they call themselves, despite their own failure to live up to their saviors teachings.
I wouldn't pay them any mind. You don't get to take the Old Testament as read and then eat pork or shrimp.
I mean, I could pour pop rocks into coke and call myself a chemist. It would technically be true, but I don't think DuPont would take me very seriously.
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Just a small heads ups: Somen of the world best scientists are katholic men of the cloth. Especially the Jesuits have produced and still do produce some of the greatest astrophysicists of our world. The katholic dogma since Aquinas is that there are two books of God: The Bible and nature.
In katholicism there is no dichotomy of science and religion, nor is it anywhere else, tbh, but in metaphysical naturalism - which is championed by the modern evangelical atheists.
I do not disagree that Catholic (English spelling), especially Jesuit, priest/monks are also scientist and do not have issues with a dichotomy between science and faith.
I do disagree with the statement that there are not others beyond evangelical atheists who establish a dichotomy of science and religion. In the United States, the dichotomy is enforced by "evangelical Christians"*. While a Catholic priest/scientist does not see a dichotomy between Darwin's Theory of Evolution and their creation beliefs, there are plenty of "evangelical Christians" in modern America who do. They tend to take numerous components of the New International Version of the Old and New Testament as true as written without any room for allegory or interpretation.
*Quotes are appropriate, it is what they call themselves, despite their own failure to live up to their saviors teachings.
I wouldn't pay them any mind. You don't get to take the Old Testament as read and then eat pork or shrimp.
I mean, I could pour pop rocks into coke and call myself a chemist. It would technically be true, but I don't think DuPont would take me very seriously.
You wouldn't, sure. Neither would I, or, probably, the rest of the people posting in this thread. :P
But the people that they pander to are precisely the (arguably) uneducated and supremely gullible sort that would, and that happens to describe a rather large number of people - which is the problem that orange is alluding to there.
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Since evangelical atheists are by definition trying to spread the "religion" of atheist, I don't think they call for a dichotomy since they believe that their certainty of the absence of god is part of science...
It's the same on both extremes, really.
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I do have to agree with both sides here, but Nicoletta is still on to something when saying there's no (or for my part at least a very ambiguous) dichotomy between scripture interpretation and scientific method amongst scientists who are, for better or worse or whatever reason, religious or of faith, both historically and today.
I wouldn't pay them any mind. You don't get to take the Old Testament as read and then eat pork or shrimp.
With a flat literal interpretation? Sure, you'd be obligated to observe kashrut.
With oral torah/midrash/orthodox anything/additional interpretation (exegesis)? Only if you're actually Jewish, otherwise no need according to most traditions. Quran? Halal for sure.
With (and this may be a strange one to some people) your own interpretation? Magic happens! Or doesn't, it's up to you. I'm hyperbolizing of course, but it's the same reason two people can read the same novel and receive two different underlying messages.
We're treading into the territory of hermeneutics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics) now and this thread could really be yanked back on course, so I'll reiterate my statement that the Amarr Empire probably mostly* uses an approach where their understanding of the meaning of scripture is placed into their much broader understanding the universe as revealed by science. This probably keeps the Theology Council very, very busy.
Another way to put it would be that they use scientific findings to expand upon, alter the perception of, or find new meaning to Amarrian scriptures.
As opposed to burying or stifling science to endlessly twist their findings in accordance with a rigid framework of scriptural understanding or dogma.
I use the word *mostly because I'm sure there would be some rigidly dogmatic or zealous crackpot scientists or clergymen resistant to change in Amarria too, who cause problems and slow academic and cultural progress. Much the same, there are probably scientists concerned purely with secular matters, who may not even care much for the Theology Council at all. However, both of these types are probably uncommon, and don't make up the vast majority within the Empire.
Does this jive with everyone?
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Does this jive with everyone?
10-4, me hearty!
... uhm, I mean: yes.
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Amarr Empire: a bit like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZnDt2wEFjk
Okay maybe not. ;)
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Culturally though it's easy for me to see how inescapable the Amarr faith is within the Empire. You're exposed to it at home, you're exposed to it at schools by teachers who might themselves be part of the theological institution and you're exposed to it in a society where there is no separation between the State and the Church.
It certainly makes for an interesting mindset where everything about the faith and the scriptures is normalized.
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Yeah, for sure. So I guess the answer to the original question is "yes."
Additionally, those millions of tomes of scriptures? The EVElopedia article (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Scriptures) does state:
They are not limited to just religious dogma; they describe everything from out-of-date codes of behavior to early technological breakthroughs.
It goes on to describe recent additions to said scriptures, likely consisting of everything from commentary on previous works to original studies in mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, medical journals, probably pieces on psychology and even humanities, all ranging from theoretical to objective in nature. Then there's probably more priestly commentary on top of that, more additions, more revisions, more discoveries ... all of which apparently brought the Amarrians to where they are, from whatever they began as.
It's an interesting framework in New Eden, science and theology co-mingled, where growth in one field offers expansion in the other and they are presented to be the same.
e; With some further thought, seems the only major thing that hasn't changed for the Amarrians since becoming stranded on Athra is strict monotheism, with the inclusion of prophets proclaiming such. Old tenets have been shifted or been forgotten and new ones arose, with the Reclaiming right at the forefront of the Amarrian modus operandi.
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Well one way I've always thought the Amarr have merged science and faith/theology is in the fact that they're described or presented as being the Empire that has an extremely deep grasp of high-energy and theoretical physics to the point they're able to build fancy things like advanced tesseract capacitor systems. If for the Amarr, science is one means to describe God's universe I don't think it's out of the question they'd try to understand his creation inside a particle accelerator since it's not about trying to make the science fit the dogma.
The fusion between the scriptures and science is an interesting topic to me -- just imagine for one, the Amarr must have the greatest repository in anthropology, sociology and the humanities given the thousands of years of practice they've had assimilating and studying varied cultures that have been subjugated and brought into the Imperial fold.
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Yeah, +1 well put.
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This is why I always do :roll: whenever people try and attack the Amarr IC for being sort of fundamentalist luddite idiots in our modern Earth sense; they were mastering particle physics and space travel when most of the other Eve races were running around flogging each other with sticks.
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If a lot of Amarr RPers were less prone to obscurantism also, it would help to alleviate those attacks a bit... It's on both sides.
Some are attracted to play Amarr just for the Deus Veult, some are attracted to troll Amarrians because of atheist evangelist crusades...
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This is why I always do :roll: whenever people try and attack the Amarr IC for being sort of fundamentalist luddite idiots in our modern Earth sense; they were mastering particle physics and space travel when most of the other Eve races were running around flogging each other with sticks.
The Amarr, during the Reclaiming when the power of the church was at its highest in the Empire, went from starting with simple wooden sailing ships and metal swords in 20078, to discovering gunpowder and clockwork during the Udorian Reclaiming in 20236, to having telephone cables, steam warships and electricity in 20445, to the start of the Amarr Space Program in 20569.
All of this, whilst fighting a global religious war.
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This is why I always do :roll: whenever people try and attack the Amarr IC for being sort of fundamentalist luddite idiots in our modern Earth sense; they were mastering particle physics and space travel when most of the other Eve races were running around flogging each other with sticks.
The Amarr, during the Reclaiming when the power of the church was at its highest in the Empire, went from starting with simple wooden sailing ships and metal swords in 20078, to discovering gunpowder and clockwork during the Udorian Reclaiming in 20236, to having telephone cables, steam warships and electricity in 20445, to the start of the Amarr Space Program in 20569.
All of this, whilst fighting a global religious war.
Amarr are suddenly amazingly awesome.
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What do you mean suddenly? :(
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This is why I always do :roll: whenever people try and attack the Amarr IC for being sort of fundamentalist luddite idiots in our modern Earth sense; they were mastering particle physics and space travel when most of the other Eve races were running around flogging each other with sticks.
The Amarr, during the Reclaiming when the power of the church was at its highest in the Empire, went from starting with simple wooden sailing ships and metal swords in 20078, to discovering gunpowder and clockwork during the Udorian Reclaiming in 20236, to having telephone cables, steam warships and electricity in 20445, to the start of the Amarr Space Program in 20569.
All of this, whilst fighting a global religious war.
Or because they were fighting a global religious war...
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This is why I always do :roll: whenever people try and attack the Amarr IC for being sort of fundamentalist luddite idiots in our modern Earth sense; they were mastering particle physics and space travel when most of the other Eve races were running around flogging each other with sticks.
The Amarr, during the Reclaiming when the power of the church was at its highest in the Empire, went from starting with simple wooden sailing ships and metal swords in 20078, to discovering gunpowder and clockwork during the Udorian Reclaiming in 20236, to having telephone cables, steam warships and electricity in 20445, to the start of the Amarr Space Program in 20569.
All of this, whilst fighting a global religious war.
Or because they were fighting a global religious war...
You know, it sort of makes sense the Amarr faith doesn't have science and religion at odds with each other if one considers that during the time they were reclaiming all the other people on Athra they couldn't afford to deny technological advancement if their enemies were doing the same.
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I do disagree with the statement that there are not others beyond evangelical atheists who establish a dichotomy of science and religion. In the United States, ...
I don't think the "evangelical Christians" want/work to establish a dichotomy between science and religion, but a relationship of science being subservient to their religion. But you have a point there.
Yeah, for sure. So I guess the answer to the original question is "yes."
Additionally, those millions of tomes of scriptures? The does state:
Scriptures - EVElopedia[/URL]]They are not limited to just religious dogma; they describe everything from out-of-date codes of behavior to early technological breakthroughs.
It goes on to describe recent additions to said scriptures, [...]
It's an interesting framework in New Eden, science and theology co-mingled, where growth in one field offers expansion in the other and they are presented to be the same.
[...]
[...] If for the Amarr, science is one means to describe God's universe I don't think it's out of the question they'd try to understand his creation inside a particle accelerator since it's not about trying to make the science fit the dogma.
The fusion between the scriptures and science is an interesting topic to me -- just imagine for one, the Amarr must have the greatest repository in anthropology, sociology and the humanities given the thousands of years of practice they've had assimilating and studying varied cultures that have been subjugated and brought into the Imperial fold.
[...]
The Amarr, during the Reclaiming when the power of the church was at its highest in the Empire, went from starting with simple wooden sailing ships and metal swords in 20078, to discovering gunpowder and clockwork during the Udorian Reclaiming in 20236, to having telephone cables, steam warships and electricity in 20445, to the start of the Amarr Space Program in 20569.[...]
All this is why, if someone goes "I have skillbooked all this stuff in my brain, that's certainly much more stuff than the Amarr Scriptures" I go :roll: - because what they skillbooked there is just a tiny part of the Scriptures.
Also +1 to all these posts.
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You know I've seen very few Amarr characters making use of a very nifty clause in the Scriptures when dealing with r/atheist types -- the, "I do not specialize in that area of the Scriptures," escape.
For example:
"All you Amarr are evil due to slavery"
"I'm sorry, I'm only trained in Scriptural astrophysics and not in the Scriptural study on the duties of a Holder."
"All you Amarr are evil due to your religious reclaiming."
"I'm sorry, I'm only trained in Scriptural anthropology and for a more in-depth and insightful elaboration upon Scriptural military codex doctrines I'm afraid I must refer you to a Paladin."
Etc.
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Good idea.
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You know I've seen very few Amarr characters making use of a very nifty clause in the Scriptures when dealing with r/atheist types -- the, "I do not specialize in that area of the Scriptures," escape.
Pfft, the scriptures are small enough for any capsuleer to read them in a day. ALL of the Scriptures. Including those ones written in archaic language. :bear: :bear: :bear: :bear:
Therefore, specialisation in an area is unnecessary, and only a simpleton is incapable of understanding ALL of the Scriptures written by billions of people across the thousands of worlds of the Empire. 8) 8) 8) 8)
Therefore, you are a simpleton and your argument is irrelevant, as is your religion. :yar: :yar: :yar: :yar:
Or so the argument goes. Lalalalalalalalalalalaaa :cowbell: :cowbell: :cowbell: :cowbell:
Guys, stop trying to not be evil, religion is evil IRL, you're doing it wrong if you're religious and not stupid/evil/insane. :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup:
Because capsuleer cyberimplants. :brilliant: :brilliant: :brilliant: :brilliant:
edited for REASONS.
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I approve. /evil
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(http://content.artofmanliness.com/uploads//2010/10/dick.jpg)
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(http://www.the60sofficialsite.com/images/1215468-boris_badenov_and_natasha_fatale_super.jpg)
Come now Boris, let us show them that we are not so evil!
I'd take it as a personal insult to my intelligence if I cared enough about what gets murmured about Amarr RPers if its assumed we're capable of only playing one dimensional characters that endlessly slaver at the mouth about how their way is the only right way...
.. owait.. that's common in every EVE faction in game.
I do admit that I enjoy not even needing a killboard to peeve people off. They're mad cause when I first saw eve I decided I liked lasers. Tee-hee.
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They're mad cause when I first saw eve I decided I liked lasers. Tee-hee.
Eventually all ship weapons will be lasers... or have you been missing the marketing material.
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You know I've seen very few Amarr characters making use of a very nifty clause in the Scriptures when dealing with r/atheist types -- the, "I do not specialize in that area of the Scriptures," escape.
For example:
"All you Amarr are evil due to slavery"
"I'm sorry, I'm only trained in Scriptural astrophysics and not in the Scriptural study on the duties of a Holder."
"All you Amarr are evil due to your religious reclaiming."
"I'm sorry, I'm only trained in Scriptural anthropology and for a more in-depth and insightful elaboration upon Scriptural military codex doctrines I'm afraid I must refer you to a Paladin."
Etc.
Actually, Luna has.... sort of. :) it makes sense given the nature of the Amarr scriptures.
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1. Scientific advancement is definitely considered holy. I would not call its practitioner's priests, though. Rather, its just understood that science is also religious. The very idea of there being any separation between secular things and religious things is one that I think is entirely absent in Amarrian thought. I see scientific revelation as being part of the revelatory function of religion in Amarr, and as such would expect there to be tech saints.
2. I have been pushing the "scriptures are too big for you to have read all of them line" for years now. It makes for a much more interesting world than a closed book scriptural model.
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What Gaven says. This bit deserves special recognition, thopugh, imho with this topic: "I would not call its practitioner's priests, though. Rather, its just understood that science is also religious."
A scientist's purpose isn't to see to the church rites and minister to the people, but to explore and describe God's will as represented in natural laws. Both may mix, though, on occasion and as Amarr are the best educated people in the cluster (or at least the only ones that by PF "tend to be highly educated") a priest would usually have an idea about what's going on in the sciences and a scientist would know a bit about theology - especially where the topics touch.
And yes, Amarr citizens will have to learn science - because it reveals God's will.
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Well it certainly makes the Amarr far more complicated than some might give them credit for if they see no conflict between their faith and rational inquiry through the sciences.
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mmhmm.
just you wait.
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The conflict can arise though, as shown through the godflesh debate or cloning or else... But it does not arises from faith or religion per se, but from TRADITION and CONSERVATISM (since the Empire is rather conservative).
I'll take a crazy analogy but when they voted the law on gay marriage here all the protestors were not faithful people and religious movements, but traditionnalists mostly. The religious movements just jumped on the bandwagon...
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The conflict can arise though, as shown through the godflesh debate or cloning or else... But it does not arises from faith or religion per se, but from TRADITION and CONSERVATISM (since the Empire is rather conservative).
Agree with this.
Amarr also has a fairly conservative scientific process I would say. The burden of evidence to disprove a scientific theory is probably pretty massive. I am also not sure how rational they are about their scientific project.
IE Technological progress and scientific knowledge are holy, but I am not sure that challenging beliefs is as sacrosanct as it is in the modern scientific project.
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The conflict can arise though, as shown through the godflesh debate or cloning or else... But it does not arises from faith or religion per se, but from TRADITION and CONSERVATISM (since the Empire is rather conservative).
Agree with this.
Amarr also has a fairly conservative scientific process I would say. The burden of evidence to disprove a scientific theory is probably pretty massive. I am also not sure how rational they are about their scientific project.
IE Technological progress and scientific knowledge are holy, but I am not sure that challenging beliefs is as sacrosanct as it is in the modern scientific project.
The Amarr do seem conservative and old fashioned as a people, but I think that's because they're a more cautious, crafty people on the whole. They aren't likely to take on a new idea until it's been vetted and tested, since they don't like missteps. So they probably stick to older ideas that work until they absolutely know something else will work better and they know how to best integrate it.
On the other hand, I'm not sure that new scientific ideas that seem to upend their notions of reality are going to jar them as much as, say, conservatives of contemporary Earth religions. They do seem to figure, rationally, that if the Scriptures seem to say one thing and it is discovered that the reality is something different, they go with reality and try to figure out what the Scriptures must have meant instead. Amarrian Scriptures also seem to be much more metaphorical and commanding rather than spending time trying to describe the minutiae of God's schedule while creating the universe.
It makes it more fun since it's easy to come up with a parable rather than trying to coordinate how many children preceded the first emperor from the first human.
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It's taking the scriptures as the bits we are feed on the eve wiki though. Those are very generic bible like texts, which would answer to their religious parts. With more mundane or scientific scriptures, you can bet that their texts are extremely precise and rational. You can not make serious science by remaining highly evasive or metaphorical. The only science texts that would be written in such way would rather be essays and philosophic thoughts on science facts, rather than science theories themselves.
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I always thought the bits of Scripture currently available in PF were more or less metaphorical or allegorical snippets of history: parables and fables of theological importance.
I mean, one might say the the excerpt from Amarr Prime Customs Agency regulations, section 17, subsection 4, paragraph 8:
The following items may only be imported or exported with the express prior approval of the Imperial Underscrivener for Commercial Affairs:
Narcotic substances; handheld firearms; slaver hounds (except as personal property); Mindflood; live insects; ungulates; Class 1 refrigerants and aerosols; forced laborers/personal slaves (or other sapient livestock); animal germ-plasm; biomass of human origin; xenobiotics; walnuts.
Is Scripture, legal Scriptures in an Empire that has no separation between Church and State, no?
If the laws change, they become apocryphal. If new theories arise in the field of science that countermand previous theories then they become apocryphal too -- which might explain why scientific progress is slower in the Empire because they want to be absolutely sure before making a Scriptural theory apocrypha?
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I mean, one might say the the excerpt from Amarr Prime Customs Agency regulations, section 17, subsection 4, paragraph 8:
The following items may only be imported or exported with the express prior approval of the Imperial Underscrivener for Commercial Affairs:
Narcotic substances; handheld firearms; slaver hounds (except as personal property); Mindflood; live insects; ungulates; Class 1 refrigerants and aerosols; forced laborers/personal slaves (or other sapient livestock); animal germ-plasm; biomass of human origin; xenobiotics; walnuts.
Is Scripture, legal Scriptures in an Empire that has no separation between Church and State, no?
Not all laws in the Empire are Scriptural. There's a distinction between civil law and Scriptural law. The latter is less easy to change, the former seems something that would regulate import of walnuts to certain planets - which is not to say that it'd be easy to change either, given how traditional Amarr are.
Anyhow, that said, that the Bible is to be taken literally only arose as an idea with Martin Luther: Most of the time and to most Christians that lived it was clear that biblical texts are to me taken as trying to convey another meaning than the litteral one (though sometimes a litteral meaning was meant to be conveyed atb the same time). If you read the 'minutiae of God's schedule while creating the universe' in the Bible you will become quite aware that they couldn't be meant to be taken literally, as then god would a) crate humankind after creating the animals and b) at the same time create the animals after creating mankind.
So... it's really not the 'conservatives' that insist on literal bible interpretation, it's the nutters. A 'conservative' would instead insist on the metaphorical nature of the Bible, it's spiritual message and the exegetical tradition (handed down within the body of the church) that is the key to that meaning.
Thus, a conservative Christian would have little problem with bringing science into accord with his understanding of the Bible. Again, it is really a pretty old and established (at least since Aquinas) idea of Christianity that God handed down two testaments: The Bible and the book of Nature. I could go on how modern science is indepted as much to the (rather Christian) idea of God ordering nature by laws as it is to the idea of systematized study of nature by the greek philosophers.
And all that said, I'm not sure whether that was the intended implication, but good philosophy is neither evasive nor metaphorical. Of only bad philosophy was meant, then it can equally be bad scientific texts that are opaque. God knows I read more than one of those.
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I mean, one might say the the excerpt from Amarr Prime Customs Agency regulations, section 17, subsection 4, paragraph 8:
The following items may only be imported or exported with the express prior approval of the Imperial Underscrivener for Commercial Affairs:
Narcotic substances; handheld firearms; slaver hounds (except as personal property); Mindflood; live insects; ungulates; Class 1 refrigerants and aerosols; forced laborers/personal slaves (or other sapient livestock); animal germ-plasm; biomass of human origin; xenobiotics; walnuts.
Is Scripture, legal Scriptures in an Empire that has no separation between Church and State, no?
Not all laws in the Empire are Scriptural. There's a distinction between civil law and Scriptural law. The latter is less easy to change, the former seems something that would regulate import of walnuts to certain planets - which is not to say that it'd be easy to change either, given how traditional Amarr are.
Anyhow, that said, that the Bible is to be taken literally only arose as an idea with Martin Luther: Most of the time and to most Christians that lived it was clear that biblical texts are to me taken as trying to convey another meaning than the litteral one (though sometimes a litteral meaning was meant to be conveyed atb the same time). If you read the 'minutiae of God's schedule while creating the universe' in the Bible you will become quite aware that they couldn't be meant to be taken literally, as then god would a) crate humankind after creating the animals and b) at the same time create the animals after creating mankind.
So... it's really not the 'conservatives' that insist on literal bible interpretation, it's the nutters. A 'conservative' would instead insist on the metaphorical nature of the Bible, it's spiritual message and the exegetical tradition (handed down within the body of the church) that is the key to that meaning.
Thus, a conservative Christian would have little problem with bringing science into accord with his understanding of the Bible. Again, it is really a pretty old and established (at least since Aquinas) idea of Christianity that God handed down two testaments: The Bible and the book of Nature. I could go on how modern science is indepted as much to the (rather Christian) idea of God ordering nature by laws as it is to the idea of systematized study of nature by the greek philosophers.
And all that said, I'm not sure whether that was the intended implication, but good philosophy is neither evasive nor metaphorical. Of only bad philosophy was meant, then it can equally be bad scientific texts that are opaque. God knows I read more than one of those.
My favorite was that you're supposed to take literally that the Earth and all things were created in seven days. A day is the rotation of the Earth on its axis. He doesn't get around to gathering stuff into a ball until day two. Obviously, it's a little more metaphorical than that. With all the talk of lights and lighting in the first part of Genesis, I keep laughing thinking that God is a contractor trying to explain to some homeowner why it's taking so long to wire the lights.
"Yeah, this might take a couple days. I mean, you've got light, you can see that. But you gotta run this light through the firmament between the heavens, or you're not gonna have seasons, years, or days, man. And I haven't even started putting together any animals yet. Look.... this might take a week to set up."
But yeah, I'm sure the Amarr has its variety. Everything from ministers that want the whole world to join hands all the way to grouchy slavers who think the only way to get the universe in order is to enslave every single living person in the cluster and addict them to Vitoc. They're probably more conservative on whole, comparatively, to the other empires probably because they take such a long view for their plans and they're very careful about how to proceed.
With everyone I've RPed with, the one personality trait I see least in Amarrian characters is impatience. Maybe they exist and I just never play with them, but impulsiveness seems to be the one thing that's counter-intuitive to the culture at large.
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Impatience?
/me smiles serenely.
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Impatience?
/me smiles serenely.
*Results may vary
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Scientific progress is "slower" in the Empire, because the Holders, Heirs, and the Emperor are all long lived.
For an example: A variety of wheat is developed, what is the cost of using that wheat ?
It would increase the food production from the farmland, which would increase the power and prestige of the Holder who owns that farmland.
There would be increased demand for phosphates and other fertilisers, a different Holder would benefit from that, increasing their power and prestige.
The run-off of fertilisers would affect the fishing and other aspects of the environment, reducing the prestige of the Holder in the coastal areas.
The increase in population that the food would support, would affect things such as military recruitment by Imperial forces, Imperial taxation, and much more.
So, the new variety of wheat, would alter the balance of power between the planetary Holders, the planet's overall Holder, and also the relationship between other planets in the star system, constellation, region, as well as the relationship with the Imperial authorities.
And the Holders, Heirs and Emperor can see such situations arising within their lifetimes. So they are conservative in implementing some technologies.
The Empire is conservative in implementing things, but not necessarily in researching them.
And with the whole thing about newer works making older works apocryphal, then there is the thing that the Amarr religion places scripture within the context of the time.
If an old text says Pi is 3.14, and a newer text determines that Pi is 3.142, and a more recent one says 3.14159, then it does not mean the older one is apocryphal, as it is entirely righteous within the context of the time.
It may also be inspirational - "The ancient philosophers determined Pi to be 3.14, with only simple tools. Consider the difficulty of that achievement, and reflect on what is then expected of you, with modern tools."
Or something
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The example of Pi gave me the funny thought that somewhere in the scriptures there's a part that is simply noting down Pi to an incredibly accurate precision that'd be printed out quite a few pages. ^^