Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP DUST 514 Discussion => Topic started by: Denak Kalamari on 14 Sep 2013, 13:26
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Since I noticed that there is a lack of threads where people can generally express their opinions on the state of DUST 514, I decided to go ahead and create one for your leisure.
So basically, what do you think of DUST 514 at its current state? Does it have potential to be the game it was promised to be? Is it going to be a huge flop and be the next Incarna disaster? Is it actually Godzilla that goes on a rampage to destroy EVE Online? And moreso, how woulf you improve DUST 514? Share your thoughts here!
My opinion is that it's good. While there are several features that could be improved greatly or they're missing entirely, I believe it has the potential to be the great game it aspires to be. 1.4 patch was a step in the right direction in terms of gameplay, and with my beloved scout suit getting some love in 1.5, I'll eagerly wait for next winter.
What I would like to see more is a greater connection between DUST 514 and EVE Online, in terms of gameplay and story, which would include making DUST markets available to EVE Online too, without breaking the economy preferably. Seeing more PvE content -- manufacturing, rogue drone missions etc.
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I don't really see people talking about it in the industry press anymore. I don't even see many people discussing it within the Eve community.
I think that's a bad thing.
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What I would like to see more is a greater connection between DUST 514 and EVE Online, in terms of gameplay and story, which would include making DUST markets available to EVE Online too, without breaking the economy preferably. Seeing more PvE content -- manufacturing, rogue drone missions etc.
I think this is what it all comes down to right here. The whole big thing about DUST 514 was that it was going to be A) an FPS that was B) on a console and C) interconnected with and taking place in the very same universe as an online MMO, on the very same server, and that D) (this is the biggest one) the actions of players in the two games would have an effect on the other game respectively.
A, B and C were delivered. D... not really delivered - at least, not anywhere near to the extent that was promised. I don't have a PS3 currently, but I've been logging into DUST 514 on a buddy's PS3 on the weekends from time to time. I like it as a shooter, it's pretty good. Gameplay is fair, graphically it's excellent, I love the whole thing (though the skill stuff could be laid out a little better imo, and I'd like it if the market had ISK stuff and AUR stuff separated so that those customers could find their stuff easily and I could find my stuff without having to sift through AUR shit).
But it isn't what we were promised, I don't think. I'm looking forward to that game ever being delivered, but it hasn't been yet.
I wanna hire DUST mercs to go shit up PI installations of people I don't like. Or just people who aren't me. I wanna hire them to act as landing parties to attack POCOs and POSes (having the effect of shortening RF timers, perhaps). I wanna be paid by them to take a Maelstrom with some 1400mm artillery and wtfpwn large areas of a battlefield from orbit (which requires the whole orbital bombardment thing to be expanded and improved from its current sort-of iteratation).
I want a lot :(
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uhm, if DUST514 survives with a small commited community and CCP starts making gradual improvements and expanding the game....then dust 514 will be fine..
the problem is the whole F2P + micro-transaction model does not support that, it actually goes against it, you cannot have success with an incomplete game under that framework.
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Unfortunately, it's either that or charge up front for the thing (like, you know, normal console games), but with it being unfinished who's going to pay for it? Probably would've been smarter to wait and complete the bloody thing but I suppose they're irrevocably committed to their chosen path at this point.
I remain optimistic, however. It's usually not until years after the "Game X is dead/dying" starts that a game actually dies. There's time to turn it around if they can figure out which side of their bread is buttered.
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what do you think of DUST 514 at its current state?
I'd rather go play Battlefield 3 (Which was free on PSN a couple months ago) or Defiance (also an incomplete game, but much, much more fun than DUST).
Does it have potential to be the game it was promised to be?
No. As much as I'd like it to, there's no chance with the limitations of the PS3. They need it on PS4 to have LARGE battles to actually take advantage of the huge maps they are using. It's... flat out ridiculous.
Is it going to be a huge flop and be the next Incarna disaster?
No. It will probably just slowly die over the next couple years while CCP shores up development resources and shifts their focus away from the Shanghai office without alerting the gaming media in order to avoid worrying investors.
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To be totally frank, although I haven't played it in quite some time, the game seemed pretty... Dull.
Like, essentially, it played like your average flavourless generic matchmaking FPS, with a few pretty adornments. Nothing really tremendous in terms of scale, design, visuals...
The only thing that really makes the idea interesting is it's networking with the Eve world - With the massive economy, the intrigue, the crazy player governed conflicts, etc - And right now, that's so curtailed that they might as well not be linked at all. And from what I've heard, there are no signs of that changing any time soon.
It breaks my heart, since there are a couple DUST based roleplayers I really enjoy interacting with, but I don't see it lasting in the long term.
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I'm making no predictions.
The game will establish its niche, stabilize, improve, and grow, or it will not. As to which is more likely, there is too little data. CCP has a long history of creating wounded marvels and marvelous wounds; I expect transcendence only in error, and will be patient even then.
Whatever happens, life goes on. I will take what I want from the game for as long as I wish to, and spend my time in it as I choose.
That will be a longer time if CCP manages to stabilize its community. In fairness, a fair few of that community's members definitely vote with their pocketbooks ... for further development. I feel strangely cheered whenever I am killed with a "Dren" item, and the highly-commonplace nature of Blood Raider Sagas suggests that CCP is getting more income from this house of cards than many might suspect.
Incidentally, never buy AURUM straight when you can get the same funds plus a sizeable toybox at the same price.
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I'd really like to play it, as I've considered playing Planetside, but I refuse to buy and set up a PS3 solely for the pleasure of one game.
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To be totally frank, although I haven't played it in quite some time, the game seemed pretty... Dull.
Like, essentially, it played like your average flavourless generic matchmaking FPS, with a few pretty adornments. Nothing really tremendous in terms of scale, design, visuals...
... customization. Oh, wait. ;)
DUST, if played like Battlefield, doesn't have much to offer. What it does have is a lot of ambitious possibilities, none of which are off the table yet.
Meantime, its fitting options allow me to zip around the battlefield as the infantry equivalent of a very quiet interceptor, bait overconfident ambulatory tanks into explosive traps, and shank snipers and hackers in the spine-- and have it all mean something at the end of the day (for both me and my unfortunate victims).
In other words, it lets me extensively customize and upgrade my build to suit my play style, much like fittings in Eve, and then use those fittings to do unpleasant things to people.
It's exactly the sort of thrill I kept wanting Eve to provide, without having to go out hunting for hours at a time without a kill.
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How is it compared to planetside 2 and its RTS-like scale at a tactical level ?
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How is it compared to planetside 2 and its RTS-like scale at a tactical level ?
From what I gather, much smaller.
For now.
The maps we're playing on have been getting larger over time.
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Played it, hated it, haven't looked back.
Considering the amount of time, money, and resources and time spent and the disappointing end result.... an unfortunate set of decisions for the parent company to have made.
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I couldn't tell you the names of the maps, but I've had a little bit of fun finding sniping spots that cover other sniping spots that cover a decent field of view around an objective. I've got no mic or keyboard for the PS3 I'm playing on every other weekend or so, so I haven't gotten anything near serious about it, but it's fun to get a couple of kills, then go to the secondary spot and wait for someone to go hunting for me and pop them, too.
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As an EVE player, here's my issue with DUST 514 at the moment:
It's irrelevant.
Let me explain: Every activity in EVE so far fits in somewhere as a need to follow a want. Want a ship built? You need a miner somewhere. Want a T2 ship? Now you need an explorer and an industrialist. Want a faction mods? Someone needs to run missions somewhere. Want to control huge swaths of space? You need coordinators and planners.
DUST has no need. The "trial run" with Molden Heath suffers from a lack of controlling anything needed by the rest of EVE that is not found in most other regions in the cluster. The FW interaction is crippled by being overridden by a greater "need": The need for the faction warfare LP farmers to make their (highly-in-demand) money, and in DUST there's even less of a benefit to playing for the FW side loosing at any given point than there is in EVE.
CCP promised us a Need. If we were wanted to take over a district on a planet, they said, we would Need to involve DUSTies. We've yet to see that Need materialize, though. I understand why CCP wanted to integrate DUST a bit at a time - I really do - but several months on we've yet to see an iota of movement towards that Need, and if there's one thing EVE's history tells us it's that things that aren't Needed get left behind.
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Clunky. Cumbersome. Crap.
I would be slightly more enthusiastic if it dd the Need Esna described. It's just another Incarna now, wasted money for a barely a product. I think Dust would have far more potential had it been a PC game as the core who wanted to play it and seemed passionate about it is on PC. But yeah eh. Seen better, played better. I'll stick to Payday 2 thank you very much.
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How is it compared to planetside 2 and its RTS-like scale at a tactical level ?
From what I gather, much smaller.
For now.
The maps we're playing on have been getting larger over time.
The thing I was impressed with planetside 2 was not the FPS Halo-TF2-like gameplay which is quite common, but rather the scale of the toy. The fact that you have the infantry/armor soldier individual, yes, but combined with many like them, they need commanders that sit in front of a map hologram and relay their order to squad lieutnants, etc. Which make them like RTS players, with a real strategic and tactical planning, as well as coordination heavy.
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One upside Dust has over Planetside is that, well, it's on a single platform, the PS3. Which means if you buy a PS3, you can play it.
Can't guarantee that with a PC, as a number of Backstage users who play(ed) Planetside can attest.
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It needs spiced up, way more. Meaning;
(1) More Eve/Dust Interaction. I wanna see a dread get blapped by a skyfire cannon
(2) Meaningful impact of DUSTies. "Oh, claiming sov here from [INSERT OTHER ALLIANCE] will be so easy, we have way more ships and...wait what? Why can't we cap the planets?...So what, how many DUSTies could they ha-HOW MANY THOUSAND?!?!"
(3) Maps. Moar Maps. Dynamic as can be. Give variety. We have a giant fucking universe with who knows how many worlds. Let's see them. I mean for goodness sake, Phantasy Star Online II sets itself up as hyperfuturistic and when you combat drop on a city needing defended you SEE it's hyper futuristic. Let's see some city combat dammit! BIG cities!
(4) Player commanded Airships. Air carriers with fighter craft for epic dogfights right above the ground.
(5) I may get flamed but; quests. A storyline. What ever happened to those proto-types? What about those Sleepers? How about a mission to deploy inside a Sleeper construct with an NPC capsuleer or something? Console shooters have had stories. Do that.
I could go on.
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All that stuff.
Gods, how I wish. I would become serious and get good at DUST and possibly defect altogether like Aria did if DUST had all THAT cool shit going on.
Sadly I don't think they're even planning to do half of that.
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Console shooters have had stories. Do that.
It's supposed to be an immersive and persistent virtual world MMOFPS linked to an MMORPG. The player's interactions take center stage, not the story.
:bash:
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Console shooters have had stories. Do that.
It's supposed to be an immersive and persistent virtual world MMOFPS linked to an MMORPG. The player's interactions take center stage, not the story.
:bash:
Yeah how's that LOL U NUB HEDSHOT, I C@/\/\P U story going?
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All that stuff.
Gods, how I wish. I would become serious and get good at DUST and possibly defect altogether like Aria did if DUST had all THAT cool shit going on.
Sadly I don't think they're even planning to do half of that.
Actually, they kind of do seem to be. I wrote a post on their forums a week or so into trying the game out that said, substantially, this stuff, and essentially got the response, "Thank you for the great feedback; that's what we're trying for."
We'll see whether they can pull it off.
Yeah how's that LOL U NUB HEDSHOT, I C@/\/\P U story going?
Surprisingly well. When the game forces you to make a budget if you're going to run quality kit, that "LOL U NUB HEDSHOT" is a bit more meaningful.
One of the things that makes DUST interesting is the persistence of gear. Killing a proto-runner with basic or advanced gear is like downing an assault ship with a Merlin-- right down to the relative expense of the loss. Killing someone running full prototype gear by using kit that cost a fraction of what his did just brings a grin to my face. Better still if I can bait a handful of them onto a remote explosive, or teach a tank driver the dangers of overconfidence.
It's like PvP in Eve, over, currently, somewhat smaller stakes. Better still if you can fit in some character motivation behind it all beyond wanting more ISK, which FW is good for.
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Clunky. Cumbersome. Crap.
X gets the square.
It has a fantastic original concept and potential..... abysmal, and I do mean abysmal, execution.
The things that make other FPS games successful, be they amazing story, innovative controls and multiplayer gameplay, "polish", or sheer WTF holy jesus spectacle, none of these are present in DUST.
It's a kernal of a possibly fantastic game, weighed down by so much clunky and unresponsive gameplay as to be ignored by just about everyone.
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Clunky. Cumbersome. Crap.
X gets the square.
It has a fantastic original concept and potential..... abysmal, and I do mean abysmal, execution.
The things that make other FPS games successful, be they amazing story, innovative controls and multiplayer gameplay, "polish", or sheer WTF holy jesus spectacle, none of these are present in DUST.
It's a kernal of a possibly fantastic game, weighed down by so much clunky and unresponsive gameplay as to be ignored by just about everyone.
Yep, that was pretty much the impression it left on an awful lot of folks at release. CCP's been polishing furiously ever since, with a roughly 1-month patch release cycle.
I'm a little concerned, actually, that they're polishing so furiously that by the time they're ready to start linking the game more closely to Eve, the player base will have wandered off to play something else. There are some recent indications that this link is on the back burner while they work on hit detection and such-- and in fairness, (1) aiming and hit detection needed a lot of work and (2) they're both much better now.
Without a closer link to Eve, DUST is way too similar to the likes of Battlefield for comfort-- "for comfort," mostly, in the sense that it's in serious danger of being wholly overshadowed by the likes of Planetside II and (oh-God-this-looks-good) Destiny.
A lot of coordination is going to be needed to link the games more thoroughly (through the market, for example), and apparently it's not looking like there's enough contact between the development teams for that to be a realistic possibility this winter.
The main thing I really do not understand about all of this is why CCP insisted on releasing the game in May with a pile of new and untested features. It's only now getting back to where the gameplay was BEFORE they decided to update the shading.
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The main thing I really do not understand about all of this is why CCP insisted on releasing the game in May with a pile of new and untested features. It's only now getting back to where the gameplay was BEFORE they decided to update the shading.
To start the clock early. The earlier they release, the earlier they can get out of the PS3 exclusive contract.
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There is a pattern, since Incarna.
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To start the clock early. The earlier they release, the earlier they can get out of the PS3 exclusive contract.
If it's not a success on PS3, what would be the point of shopping it around elsewhere?
My guess is that CCP had a release window, and if they didn't make that window, there would be consequences. Star Trek Online and Defiance are two notable MMO examples of what happens when that release window comes close without being able to develop the game properly. You fix the major holes, you patch it as much as you can, and "Iteration" becomes your mantra.
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To start the clock early. The earlier they release, the earlier they can get out of the PS3 exclusive contract.
If it's not a success on PS3, what would be the point of shopping it around elsewhere?
My guess is that CCP had a release window, and if they didn't make that window, there would be consequences. Star Trek Online and Defiance are two notable MMO examples of what happens when that release window comes close without being able to develop the game properly. You fix the major holes, you patch it as much as you can, and "Iteration" becomes your mantra.
Sounds about right.
I'm hoping that they're also planning some Eve-style major expansions, but there are starting to be indications that they're not. Yet, anyway.
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I'm hoping that they're also planning some Eve-style major expansions, but there are starting to be indications that they're not. Yet, anyway.
With STO and Defiance, there was talk before launch of expansions. Featured Episodes in STO started almost immediately, and "episode" missions for Defiance started a week or two after the game started if I remember correctly.
The events for DUST might count. However, STO was on PC and Defiance is on PC, PS3 and 360. Defiance even had a past EVE EP as Lead Developer (who was canned not too long ago, a few weeks before Trion consolidated offices), and a horrible patch history for the first few months, and are turning out content faster now despite the company downsizing. I don't think DUST should be in the state it is in, and really wouldn't be if DUST was anything more than a high-concept boondoggle.
Signs point to DUST needing resources, publicity and marketing to keep from completely drowning as CoD and Battlefield and Halo and Defiance and Destiny and... well, do I really need to go on? CCP might be happy with a niche game for the time being, as they probably already got enough stake to develop WoD and Valkyrie.
Yes, I'm very, very cynical. :|
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CCP might be happy with a niche game for the time being, as they probably already got enough stake to develop WoD and Valkyrie.
Marketing aside, I don't think the clearer heads at CCP ever expected DUST to be anything but niche. You fit suits like Eve Online ships, for Pete's sake, and the major advantage of high-grade suits is additional slots to fill. Even a bit dumbed-down from Eve skills and fitting, it's substantially more involved than your typical shooter.
Niche is all I ever wanted or expected. Eve is niche, itself, and for good reason: it's utterly ruthless, cutthroat to the point where less-jaded gamers are frequently shocked at what is allowed. If DUST ends up any different, I will be gravely disappointed.
Personally, I'd like to see DUST move deeper into its niche: restore Eve-style skill advancement by killing the "unlock" skills, put comprehensive fitting information at our fingertips (let me see my signature profile, damn it!), or at least let us access an "advanced" mode that will show us the complete numbers, and let us see and fully interact with the full wealth of information available to Eve players.
Of course, I look on DUST as an RPG first and an FPS second, not the other way around, so making the sophisticated bits more-so strikes me as nothing but a plus. If DUST can be to Destiny what Eve is to Star Trek Online, I think it'll be in a pretty good spot.
Big if, but I'm happy to stick around and watch it play out.
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Niche is all I ever wanted or expected.
Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
Here's the thing; is the connection to EVE mechanics so important? What if there was another option that could be just as fun, just as deep, but worked within an FPS format?
Core mechanics are what should draw people in to the game, depth is what keeps them there. As it stands, new players look at the skills and fittings and everything else and just go "Why?" If it's a FPS, there needs to be something familiar to FPS players. The skills, fittings, etc. turn off more casual players, and that's a huge mistake.
That's what's lacking, because I can just not log in for a month or two and pump skill points into a couple skills, and then play for a couple days and get bored. Headshots to Proto armor with my Toxin AR? Fun for a day or so, then it's back to Battlefield to rank up my soldier. See you in a couple months to pump more skill points into AR.
What makes EVE so unique? It's not the skill point system. It's not the fitting system. It's the feeling that your actions matter, and while I applaud CCP for trying to do that, they needed the core FPS aspect first and foremost. With that they can maintain a small core while gaining traction with the larger gaming community. As a fan of EVE, and of FPS, DUST is not what I want right now.
Loyalty Points, building up rep with a faction, flaunting my Gallente LP store armor? Not there. That's the depth that could keep me playing, not SP boosts.
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The skill system in eve is actually one of the biggest direct and content generated (opposed to player generated) part of the game that makes it addictive. A lot of people stay and are also hooked up because they have goals, short run and long run, and crave to pilot this or that. It works for a certain time before , well... you know.
Anyway it's different from DUST since the format is completely different (RPG slow paced, etc).
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Here's the thing; is the connection to EVE mechanics so important? What if there was another option that could be just as fun, just as deep, but worked within an FPS format?
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Loyalty Points, building up rep with a faction, flaunting my Gallente LP store armor? Not there. That's the depth that could keep me playing, not SP boosts.
What you're talking about is a very different sort of depth. It's one I'd like to see, but which seems to be at least as tricky to add. Probably trickier. Also, it's not inconsistent with the kind of depth the fitting system takes.
What is so important about the Eve-style fitting is the flexibility and variety-- the room for imginative fittings and unorthodox tactics, and also for bungling things horribly and learning from mistakes. For example, my current favorite scout fit involves two sidearms (SMG and nova knives) and no primary "light" weapon. This, on its face, under-utilizes suit resources, but the net effect works frighteningly well.
The fit I use most often is efficient and affordable, meshes with my personal playstyle to near-perfection, and, best of all, is mostly something I pieced together myself over time out of a wide array of options. Piecing it together is something I actively enjoyed doing.
I am the sort of person who has been disappointed in the slowly-decreasing selection of skills, weapons, and even armor pieces in the Elder Scrolls games. I like my choices in a game to have meaning and variety, and, in general, the more a game challenges me to think, learn, and adapt, the more I enjoy it.
It's likely that Destiny will be just the sort of game you're talking about, Reyd. It's going to have a sort of dynamic ecology; did you hear about that? Fascinating stuff; apparently Bungee's not planning on scripting the changes and development in the world, instead letting it develop itself organically. If they can make it work....
But I have worries about their class system. Classes are often more than a little arbitrary and limiting. I want stealth options, but I'm not sure I want to play a Hunter; I like sniper rifles, but what's this about six-shooters? I'm okay with the "space magic" of the Traveler, but ... must I really go about "enchanting" my guns?
In DUST, I design my own character class. It's shaping up nicely. If that means having a few less playmates, well, that might be a problem taken to an extreme, but I think CCP would really be better off embracing the niche-ness of their game. People who are intimidated by the fitting aren't likely to be fans of AWOXing, corp theft, and scamming, either.
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Seemsv like CCP's friends at Sony couldn;t save them from this savaging:
http://www.officialplaystationmagazine.co.uk/review/dust-514-ps3-review-galaxy-sized-potential-marred-by-patchy-execution/
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One upside Dust has over Planetside is that, well, it's on a single platform, the PS3. Which means if you buy a PS3, you can play it.
Can't guarantee that with a PC, as a number of Backstage users who play(ed) Planetside can attest.
I have no issue playing PS2 every day, in spite of it's issues. At this point it's my new main MMO, and I do love it for what it offers. Dust offers something similar, yet smaller and less accessible; you need a PS3 to play Dust, and at this rate the PS3 is soon to be obsolete - the vast majority of console-gamers will move to PS4 given what an utter debacle Xbox1 turned out to be, and guess what? Planetside 2 is coming to PS4. This means that console players who want a shooter get's two big options: Stick with the PS3 and a small and dwindling population to play Dust, or move on to the PS4 for a bigger population and a massive-in-scale alternative to Dust in the form of PS2. PS2's other strengths is that it's an open-world battlefield that never rests - it ebbs and flows as people log on and off, especially during the night, but it never really stops.
Unless CCP does something, anything, then as far as I can tell Dust will shrink up and eventually die, not solely out of a lack of effort on the part of CCP, but mostly the conditions on the gaming-market today. Releasing it as a PS3 exclusive was, IMHO, a huge fuck-up. Making it another arena-shooter with waiting lines in between matches was a mistake - even if they could hardly do anything else. Surely they can't make huge maps like in PS2 to represent the hundreds of worlds the battles will be on, even if many of those were air-less barren places where EVE players dumped their resource extractors and other players asked the Dusters to go fight.
The short and simple of it is that, unless CCP does something to deal with the bleak out-looks soon Dust won't amount to much beyond a niche little shooter tacked-on to EVE on a console only a handful bother to play on. That would be a crying shame, tbh.