Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => Moderation Discussion => Topic started by: Lyn Farel on 07 Sep 2013, 03:29
-
Since you said it's better to post it there instead, so be it.
Sometimes this forum's rules protecting privacy of users in addition to the usual social standards are extremely frustrating. There is more going on than the case of someone making an unlikable character and then repeatedly complaining that nobody wants to RP with them to the point nobody wants to listen to it anymore, but only a handful of people can actually come out and spill the details without breaking the rules.
Then do it privately ? If I wanted to convince others of my point of view where sensible "shit" might break the rules, then I would do that instead.
The only thing you managed here was to post an inflammatory answer on the first thread in the middle of similar answers from others, and it did not even went into the detail you refer to...
What Morwen is referring to here is the rules that say we cannot discuss, for example, who reports what, who who gets reported for what by whom or when someone is warned or banned (much less why someone is warned or banned) or any of the (limited) personal details we have access to like email/ip/etc. The rules that protect user privacy, in other words, which we take very seriously. The only exceptions are when people bring those things up themselves (for example, saying 'Why was I wanred for x?' publicly, or 'I reported x why did you do anything?' when in fact they didn't.) That means we can't discuss it publicly, privately, or otherwise except among Backstage mods and Admins.
I am not sure to understand what you are trying to say... : |
Also, nice jab at me reporting people where I supposedly never sent reports. In the series of cases you are referring to, I may not have reported every time I complained, but I sure made a decent amount of reports on the mods in question over the time period. To see that you continue to deny their existence is rather disappointing. To see that nothing happened and that some mods continue to post abrasive and inflammatory answers (that get catacombed or not, seems pretty random), is also disappointing. I would like to point out that it's always the same individuals that fall into that pattern and that the rest, the majority of the mod team seem to do their job correctly.
Disclaimer : privately to involved people, like, you know, the people that do not understand or Seri's defenders, not randomly to newcomers that never asked for it...
And let's face it - it's not like Seriphyn's alone in this type of situation either. Most of us have seen others treated in a similar fashion through the years.
Yep. Had a few things like that when I was offline that got reported to me
[redacted]
Not the worst of these mind you. It's just an example, i'm not going to post the worst.
Most of the time if you start a debate or don't agree with the majority, you greatly increase the chances for people to start waging a popularity war against you, constructing a whole reputation around your OOC persona that most people that do not know you personally will eventually accept as a fact.
I believe the person you are quoting here was me (though I can't verify that 100% because my HDD died a couple months ago - but it rings a bell pretty strongly and looks like my sort of turn of phrase). As a long time veteran of Eve, I am not under the illusion that anything I say in a public channel is not, in fact, public - including those occasions when I comment on other people and/or their posting here on Backstage (although it does worry me a little bit when that sort of Eve-induced borderline paranoia is vindicated.) Happily, when I am not posting here, the only rules that I have to follow are the ones that live in the venue where I am posting*. That including expressing opinions about posts and even posters here, in reference to their posts (as I am not only an Admin and mod, but a fellow Backstage user!) A thorogh search of OOC/Corp/Soundstage/etc chatlogs would no doubt reveal instances of me saying mean things about many people. I am, when not posting on Backstage, sometimes rather unkind.
All of that being said, I don't have a problem with you posting that here, since the only person insulted is you and the person who posted it is me, and as I said, as many regrettable things as I may have said in public channels, I am (generally) aware that they are public channels and I assume that their content is forever available to all and sundry; however posting quotes (even anonymized) of that nature from other users will quickly get you modded, because it is basically just trolling and baiting the person quoted for a response (particularly when you post something like this without context - although IIRC the context here probably just involves me saying something mean about someone else as well). Also, you may want to clarify what you mean by 'ammo' 'just in case'. You can contact me privately or not at all, or edit your post to clarify, or not, but my first impression on reading that is that you are saying you would publish them to discredit or embarrass people if they did something you disagreed with (that is, blackmail). If that wasn't your intent you may want to make it clear.
*Though when I say that, I mean the rules for Backstage users (because when I bitch about backstage users, it is mostly either in a very general way (someone is in the catacombs fifty times - I feel comfortable calling them in a pain in the ass in a non-Backstage venue without breaching confidentiality) or it is in my capacity as a user ([redacted]) The rules regarding, for example, discussing reports/warnings/user information/etc. stand wherever I am.
If you believe mods and admins should be compelled adhere to some certain code of behavior when interacting other places (beyond the one set of rules I've mentioned) then that is a topic for Mod discussion. Also, you will noticed I have not commented on your characterization of the quote as part of 'waging a popularity war against you'. That is because I am making this post as a matter of moderation, not to defend or discuss my personal views, expressed outside this forum. However, the temptation to do so is strong, which is why (as I've said) if you decide to post that type of quote from other users, you will very likely get moderated, just like for posting any other type of flamebait (and when I say 'you' I don't just mean Lyn, I mean anyone). I will appreciate it if you also refrain from responding to this post inside the thread - again, feel free to use mod discussion if you have questions or comments.
You don't need to feel targeted. It was not you that I quoted. It is also not trolling and baiting but just serves as an example for people that just don't want to believe what is happening in a pretty regular basis. And when they do, the only answer we get is "So what ? It's human nature ! Even mods are human !".
I see what makes you believe it was done with that intent in mind though, and I can remove it if you wish.
It was not done to blackmail either. I hold these logs proving that people can't behave not if I disagree with them. I don't see why I would release logs publicly, that were made public in the first place btw (<- the irony), just because I disagree with someone on a subject that has nothing to do with them. That sounds completely silly, but I understand that a lot of people would do it. Though it can be considered a warning for the individual in question to stop that kind of disrespectful behaviour on OOC, thinking i'm not online to read it. So yes, that's completely part of the crux of the matter discussed here !
I hold these logs as proofs to back up the reports I do on the behaviour of certain individuals when people just seem unable to believe me otherwise. I hold these logs for the exact situation that has arised here with this post where people seem unable to believe that it does not only happen with people that looked for it. That's what you can get when you get into a disagreement over a debate with someone. Just like that, ad-hominem, gratuitous public slander just because "you can". It then influences people that will inevitably read it. It will probably colour their perception of the real content of the debate and make them care for the ad-hominem instead (kindof poisoning the well with a heavy hand).
And for some other logs I have from another individual, that I haven't posted because they are a lot worse than these - and would sure be catacomb worthy - I also hold these as free ammo that was stupidly given to me to make sure that I can defend myself if such a verbal aggression shows up again in public. And before anyone tell me that I brought that upon me, the only reason I got that flak was that my RP somehow displeased the guy in question. And since then I have continuously been on the receiving hand of petty, childish OOC insults, that I took the time to keep somewhere.
So yes, that's what we are reduced to do at times, it's unfortunate, it does not make me sleep worse at night, it's certainly not something that will make me feel bad, and it's not something as bad as it is for Seri since I never really did what apparently he did to piss off people and bring that upon himself, but it still exists. Believe me, if it really got into me, I would already have done what Seri did here because it would be slowly killing me.
My apologies again if that was taken as flamebait, but you are not making it easy either.
-
Since you said it's better to post it there instead, so be it.
Sometimes this forum's rules protecting privacy of users in addition to the usual social standards are extremely frustrating. There is more going on than the case of someone making an unlikable character and then repeatedly complaining that nobody wants to RP with them to the point nobody wants to listen to it anymore, but only a handful of people can actually come out and spill the details without breaking the rules.
Then do it privately ? If I wanted to convince others of my point of view where sensible "shit" might break the rules, then I would do that instead.
The only thing you managed here was to post an inflammatory answer on the first thread in the middle of similar answers from others, and it did not even went into the detail you refer to...
What Morwen is referring to here is the rules that say we cannot discuss, for example, who reports what, who who gets reported for what by whom or when someone is warned or banned (much less why someone is warned or banned) or any of the (limited) personal details we have access to like email/ip/etc. The rules that protect user privacy, in other words, which we take very seriously. The only exceptions are when people bring those things up themselves (for example, saying 'Why was I wanred for x?' publicly, or 'I reported x why did you do anything?' when in fact they didn't.) That means we can't discuss it publicly, privately, or otherwise except among Backstage mods and Admins.
I am not sure to understand what you are trying to say... : |
Also, nice jab at me reporting people where I supposedly never sent reports. In the series of cases you are referring to, I may not have reported every time I complained, but I sure made a decent amount of reports on the mods in question over the time period. To see that you continue to deny their existence is rather disappointing. To see that nothing happened and that some mods continue to post abrasive and inflammatory answers (that get catacombed or not, seems pretty random), is also disappointing. I would like to point out that it's always the same individuals that fall into that pattern and that the rest, the majority of the mod team seem to do their job correctly.
2 things:
1) I'm not sure how to explain more clearly that we consider moderation related information, and information that is available to us because we have access to non-public information, private any more clearly. It can be frustrating at times (which Morwen is referring to) because it would make it much easier to prove a certain point or to clarify something - but unfortunately we can't share that information, even privately, with people who are not mods/admins.
2) Unless, of course, the person in question brings it up. As you did here (again). I'm not sure why you think we would really lie about that, but every single report is recorded in a subforum, and I can assure you that you did not report any mods except for the single catacombed one over the 'time period'. I looked. As can be seen below it is easy to mis-remember things. Even when it is embarrassing (as with my post below - heh) the best thing you can do is admit it, not call everyone else a liar. Frankly, the only reason I can see for you continuing to insist otherwise is to create drama, and you will be modded for it.
Disclaimer : privately to involved people, like, you know, the people that do not understand or Seri's defenders, not randomly to newcomers that never asked for it...
And let's face it - it's not like Seriphyn's alone in this type of situation either. Most of us have seen others treated in a similar fashion through the years.
Yep. Had a few things like that when I was offline that got reported to me
[a regular in OOC] > vov neither does spewing pseudointellectual bullshit, but we've seen how well that works w/ Lyn
Not the worst of these mind you. It's just an example, i'm not going to post the worst.
Most of the time if you start a debate or don't agree with the majority, you greatly increase the chances for people to start waging a popularity war against you, constructing a whole reputation around your OOC persona that most people that do not know you personally will eventually accept as a fact.
I believe the person you are quoting here was me (though I can't verify that 100% because my HDD died a couple months ago - but it rings a bell pretty strongly and looks like my sort of turn of phrase). As a long time veteran of Eve, I am not under the illusion that anything I say in a public channel is not, in fact, public - including those occasions when I comment on other people and/or their posting here on Backstage (although it does worry me a little bit when that sort of Eve-induced borderline paranoia is vindicated.) Happily, when I am not posting here, the only rules that I have to follow are the ones that live in the venue where I am posting*. That including expressing opinions about posts and even posters here, in reference to their posts (as I am not only an Admin and mod, but a fellow Backstage user!) A thorogh search of OOC/Corp/Soundstage/etc chatlogs would no doubt reveal instances of me saying mean things about many people. I am, when not posting on Backstage, sometimes rather unkind.
All of that being said, I don't have a problem with you posting that here, since the only person insulted is you and the person who posted it is me, and as I said, as many regrettable things as I may have said in public channels, I am (generally) aware that they are public channels and I assume that their content is forever available to all and sundry; however posting quotes (even anonymized) of that nature from other users will quickly get you modded, because it is basically just trolling and baiting the person quoted for a response (particularly when you post something like this without context - although IIRC the context here probably just involves me saying something mean about someone else as well). Also, you may want to clarify what you mean by 'ammo' 'just in case'. You can contact me privately or not at all, or edit your post to clarify, or not, but my first impression on reading that is that you are saying you would publish them to discredit or embarrass people if they did something you disagreed with (that is, blackmail). If that wasn't your intent you may want to make it clear.
*Though when I say that, I mean the rules for Backstage users (because when I bitch about backstage users, it is mostly either in a very general way (someone is in the catacombs fifty times - I feel comfortable calling them in a pain in the ass in a non-Backstage venue without breaching confidentiality) or it is in my capacity as a user ('Morwen is fucking terrible' or 'vov neither does spewing pseudointellectual bullshit, but we've seen how well that works w/ Lyn.')) The rules regarding, for example, discussing reports/warnings/user information/etc. stand wherever I am.
If you believe mods and admins should be compelled adhere to some certain code of behavior when interacting other places (beyond the one set of rules I've mentioned) then that is a topic for Mod discussion. Also, you will noticed I have not commented on your characterization of the quote as part of 'waging a popularity war against you'. That is because I am making this post as a matter of moderation, not to defend or discuss my personal views, expressed outside this forum. However, the temptation to do so is strong, which is why (as I've said) if you decide to post that type of quote from other users, you will very likely get moderated, just like for posting any other type of flamebait (and when I say 'you' I don't just mean Lyn, I mean anyone). I will appreciate it if you also refrain from responding to this post inside the thread - again, feel free to use mod discussion if you have questions or comments.
You don't need to feel targeted. It was not you that I quoted. It is also not trolling and baiting but just serves as an example for people that just don't want to believe what is happening in a pretty regular basis. And when they do, the only answer we get is "So what ? It's human nature ! Even mods are human !".
I see what makes you believe it was done with that intent in mind though, and I can remove it if you wish.
It was not done to blackmail either. I hold these logs proving that people can't behave not if I disagree with them. I don't see why I would release logs publicly, that were made public in the first place btw (<- the irony), just because I disagree with someone on a subject that has nothing to do with them. That sounds completely silly, but I understand that a lot of people would do it. Though it can be considered a warning for the individual in question to stop that kind of disrespectful behaviour on OOC, thinking i'm not online to read it. So yes, that's completely part of the crux of the matter discussed here !
I hold these logs as proofs to back up the reports I do on the behaviour of certain individuals when people just seem unable to believe me otherwise. I hold these logs for the exact situation that has arised here with this post where people seem unable to believe that it does not only happen with people that looked for it. That's what you can get when you get into a disagreement over a debate with someone. Just like that, ad-hominem, gratuitous public slander just because "you can". It then influences people that will inevitably read it. It will probably colour their perception of the real content of the debate and make them care for the ad-hominem instead (kindof poisoning the well with a heavy hand).
And for some other logs I have from another individual, that I haven't posted because they are a lot worse than these - and would sure be catacomb worthy - I also hold these as free ammo that was stupidly given to me to make sure that I can defend myself if such a verbal aggression shows up again in public. And before anyone tell me that I brought that upon me, the only reason I got that flak was that my RP somehow displeased the guy in question. And since then I have continuously been on the receiving hand of petty, childish OOC insults, that I took the time to keep somewhere.
So yes, that's what we are reduced to do at times, it's unfortunate, it does not make me sleep worse at night, it's certainly not something that will make me feel bad, and it's not something as bad as it is for Seri since I never really did what apparently he did to piss off people and bring that upon himself, but it still exists. Believe me, if it really got into me, I would already have done what Seri did here because it would be slowly killing me.
My apologies again if that was taken as flamebait, but you are not making it easy either.
Not making what easy? This isn't the place to drag your IG vendettas, and given that the only reason it wasn't modded the first time is that I thought it was me, the only reason it isn't going to get modded now is that you will be given the opportunity to remove it. Placing an out-of-context quote and then making up context here to explain it is also not doing you any favors, since again - the person involved has no real opportunity to defend themselves. So saying 'sorry for posting this flame bait, but not really, and here is why this person that posted it is terrible' after I told you why that's on the wrong side of the rules is probably not a great idea. My point stands, even if I was mistaken about the author of the quote (I do believe I m almost certainly another participant in the same conversation, in my defense :oops:). Long story short:
[mod]Remove the stuff that breaks the rules, or it will be removed for you. [/mod]
-
1) I'm not sure how to explain more clearly that we consider moderation related information, and information that is available to us because we have access to non-public information, private any more clearly. It can be frustrating at times (which Morwen is referring to) because it would make it much easier to prove a certain point or to clarify something - but unfortunately we can't share that information, even privately, with people who are not mods/admins.
Ok, yes, I see. Thanks for the clarification.
2) Unless, of course, the person in question brings it up. As you did here (again). I'm not sure why you think we would really lie about that, but every single report is recorded in a subforum, and I can assure you that you did not report any mods except for the single catacombed one over the 'time period'. I looked. As can be seen below it is easy to mis-remember things. Even when it is embarrassing (as with my post below - heh) the best thing you can do is admit it, not call everyone else a liar. Frankly, the only reason I can see for you continuing to insist otherwise is to create drama, and you will be modded for it.
I definitely mis-remember things as it seems that the first time I complained about it (in the aftermath of the slavery on the summit debate, where that quote I wrote above happened btw), you told me that no reports were done and maybe that's the case.
However we may not refer to the same time period then, because I KNOW that I have reported several inflammatory posts from Morwen since then. I can learn from my mistakes, and you can bet that you will find a shitload of reports coming from me in your special forum over various things, including heavy moderation. However it's cleat that there is a lot less of them than usual members (fortunately...).
I hope your mods do not have the ability to remove these reports themselves, correct ?
Anyway, you chose again to elude the point that a lot of people have complained about over time, which is that a few moderators are always the source of the issue and continue to neglect the forum rules to no end. And nothing has been done about that in a few years of time.
-
Remove the stuff that breaks the rules, or it will be removed for you.
Sure thing. You could have said it like that from the beginning, it's true it breaks the rules.
Edit : It's done. You might want to check your own posts and pyramidal quotes, I can't fix those for you.
-
Those I am leaving in place for purposes of transparency.
And I am entirely aware of the sorts of reports you have been making about Morwen posting.
-
Those I am leaving in place for purposes of transparency.
Wait, so we censor the bits that I posted that break the rules, but only in my posts ? You mean that they stay in yours ? What's the point then ? Transparency that still breaks the rules ?
And I am entirely aware of the sorts of reports you have been making about Morwen posting.
Ah, so these exist finally.
-
See: The Catacombs
And yes, you finally started using the report button, that is correct.
-
Ok. But it makes your posts catacomb worthy for still containing my few bits that broke the rules.
Also, still no answer ?
-
No answer to what?
-
Anyway, you chose again to elude the point that a lot of people have complained about over time, which is that a few moderators are always the source of the issue and continue to neglect the forum rules to no end. And nothing has been done about that in a few years of time.
-
At least one moderator has been de-modded as a result of issues. In the most recent examples, who was the 'source' of anything is arguable at best and the key point remains here that we are all volunteers who also participate in the forum. We try to stay within the rules that we as a community decided upon in March 2010 and which have been added to over the years and we refrain from moderating discussions we are actively engaged in. That's about the best anyone could hope for.
-
Anyway, you chose again to elude the point that a lot of people have complained about over time, which is that a few moderators are always the source of the issue and continue to neglect the forum rules to no end. And nothing has been done about that in a few years of time.
Which moderators, Lyn? Which 'few'? Havo had a post that broke the rules, which was modded. But he has been gone for the past few years.
Have I been breaking the rules? I don't remember seeing any times you reported me, but I can't check from my phone, and I'm at work.
Cia? Jek?
Or when you say 'A few' do you mean Morwen?
Also, I don't see a question anywhere in what you quoted, just a claim that 'a few' mods are breaking the rules regularly and for years with no consequences . Which claim, if you can't back it up, is pretty problematic.
-
What is it to back up ? The inflammatory post count done by Morwen as a mod is pretty high. I'm not the only one that took issue with it over time.
Or you want me to go through the pain to find every thread where it was the case ?
-
What is it to back up ? The inflammatory post count done by Morwen as a mod is pretty high. I'm not the only one that took issue with it over time.
Or you want me to go through the pain to find every thread where it was the case ?
You are the only one who spends inordinate amounts of time poring over every single post I make trying to find some way to interpret it so that you can call it inflammatory or report-worthy. If these posts actually were what you're frothing about them being, Silver would've been the first person to do something about it.
Maybe you should stop wasting your time looking for excuses, and stop wasting our time as a result.
-
Right. The first one heh ? Doesn't seem so to me.
I'm not surprised, just disappointed and pretty disgusted, but at least it makes it clear. You could have said it since the beginning instead of playing the ostriches, if you are complaining about the time it saves us.
I am the only one that actually held hopes to see something moving forward, which is quite different.
You can close that thread if you wish.
Edit : actually close that shit, catacomb it, turn it into origami, make it disappear... I'm done with that.
-
Lyn Farel, it's not just Silver/Morwen who sees some of this. Both here and on IGS, I've noted that you and your character seem to be expert in taking someone's post and finding what seems to be the most hostile interpretation of it.
I can be prone to doing this myself, when I am disagreed with, but you seem to do it all the time, with everyone, and even to the extent of finding disagreements when another clearly did not mean what you say they meant.
I get the fun of causing conflict and shaking things up, but did you really think that others wouldn't eventually catch on?
-
Weird, if Lyn responds to my posts e.g. on IGS, it's usually not by giving the worst possible interpretation...
-
Weird, if Lyn responds to my posts e.g. on IGS, it's usually not by giving the worst possible interpretation...
Excuse me. I do not literally mean, every single post. I mean, temporally, this is neither a rare phenomenon nor a new one, from my perspective, and I think that it is happening with Lyn's interpretation of Morwen and Silver here.
-
You can call it a weak excuse, but I happen to maybe reason differently at times. It's also a problem of communication.
I was perfectly fine with the discussion being held here since we were slowly starting to move ahead and actually solve that issue that has been rampant for years now. I promised myself to get answers in the past, and I continued until now, even if i'm aware that the cases i'm referring to have mostly ceased in the past months (because there is nobody left like Bloodbird, Leopold, or whoever else that caused troubles at times, or because of something else, I don't care) and it's appreciated.
Now as you can see we are all weary of that, and I was fine to see that coming to an end, where we might disagree on some things, but at least I got my answers (I never got them either through PMs or posts on the moderation, countless times...). Or I think ?
Note : oh and Vik, equating myself to my character to make a point, really ? I'm not doing you the disservice to do the exact same thing between you and your char, but I could dig and find similarities as well. They are characters, not copies of ourselves. Or for mine, at least, I don't know your character enough to tell. And i'm pretty sure that you don't know mine either, so I would be you I wouldn't engage myself onto such a slippery slope, and not only because it's quite cheap.
-
Weird, if Lyn responds to my posts e.g. on IGS, it's usually not by giving the worst possible interpretation...
Excuse me. I do not literally mean, every single post. I mean, temporally, this is neither a rare phenomenon nor a new one, from my perspective, and I think that it is happening with Lyn's interpretation of Morwen and Silver here.
So, when you said every single post, you didn't mean every single post? And when you said Lyn does it all the time, you didn't mean all the time? And when you said with everyone, you didn't really mean everyone either?
So what you really mean is that it happens from time to time? Or what? Maybe you should use less hyperbole next time. <.<
-
I like how people go around Lyn's point and right to attack her and her short comings.
The mods made inflammatory remarks where they should have simply stomped out the flaming to begin with. They should have put aside their personal feelings on the situation and just halted the dog pile instead of joining it.
-
*ahem*
I flamed him, MorLag really didn't. Should I have Catacombed his thread from the word "go?" Yep. Did I choose to participate in a thread instead? Yep.
Sue me.
EDIT: Or dec me. Or hire mercs to do it. vOv
-
And you shouldn't have. You can comment sure whatever, but as a mod you're supposed to set an example. You didn't set a good one, thus we have shit like this thread.
-
As a:) a volunteer, and b:) a person who isn't widely liked IC or OOC due to being largely anti-social OOC and an even more anti-social madman/terrorist/pseudo-cultured prick IC, I wasn't aware of my role-model status. My bad, yo.
-
You're a moderator. Doesn't matter who you are. You're a staff member on here. Joke about it, go around it all you want. But at the end of the day, that's the situation. The precedent you set in that thread, as well as other mods backing up that precedent instead of just quashing it was not good.
-
No other mod in that thread "backed up the precedent" of my shitpoasting.
-
You're a moderator. Doesn't matter who you are. You're a staff member on here. Joke about it, go around it all you want. But at the end of the day, that's the situation. The precedent you set in that thread, as well as other mods backing up that precedent instead of just quashing it was not good.
Morwen posted before Havo.
and
I Catacombed the thread. So, no, other mods didn't 'back it up' and I specifically called out the mods in the thread (though with closer review, Morwen's post was actually okay. If someone asks for advice, and you give them criticism that is constructive, that isn't against the rules.)
Also, mods fuck up sometimes, it happens, and (as happened in this case with Havo and in the past with Morwen and other mods) we deal with it just like when anyone else fucks up. Just like with everyone else, just because you don't see anything except the post being catacombed doesn't mean there isn't anything but the post being catacombed. Mods making mistakes isn't 'precedent setting'. It's just one of the things that happen when you run a forum like this, and overall I think we do an alright job of handling it. You are free to disagree, and to use the report button any time you see mods (or anyone else) breaking the rules. Also, let me address Lyns 'points' directly:
And on that topic:
Lyn, a couple things:
1) We have rules here. You are correct, in that I should not have made an exception for you, I should have simply modded your posts rather than allowing you to change them.
2) January 24th (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3910.msg64387#msg64387) was the last time we had this discussion. At that point, you had reported Morwen 1 time, ever, as far I could ascertain with a review of the report subforum - and he was modded following that report. You did not even report him for the thread you were objecting to while complaining that we did not pay attention to your reports. Since then, you have reported 4 posts of Morwen's. Of those, 2 were pretty clearly not even close to the rules (at least to everyone on the mod team) though equally clearly you disagreed. One was in the 'The Summit' subforum, which suffered at the time from a somewhat unclear relationship to the moderation of the rest of the forum (and in part due to that thread, we clarified that somewhat - though the post you reported, on reviewing it, likely still wouldn't qualify for moderation). The last one was somewhat strongly worded, but does not, as far as I can tell, break any of the rules.
So, lets say for the sake of argument that 2 of those posts did break the rules enough to warrant moderation - perhaps we are being lax on Morwen due to his sunny disposition and the fact he knows the secret moderator handshake. Do you know what happens to posters who get moderated 2 times in 8 months? Generally, nothing. If the posts are particularly egregious violations (which none of these would be, even looked at in the most negative light) then maybe a formal warning. If, over the past 2-3 years, he had been modded 3 times, it would probably still be basically nothing, as that still puts him well behind many posters who have not received a formal warning for far more in the way of infractions.
So, the score then, is you have reported Morwen 5 times, with 1 report (the one that predated your not-quite-telling-the-truth about how much you reported him) resulting in moderation. Which is actually pretty in line with our general moderation-to-reports ratio - though I would suggest that 5 reports over a couple of years is not a 'pretty high' inflammatory post count (even were 2 of your reports not basically without any merit and bordering on being submitted in bad faith, and 2 of them look like good faith, but a determination was made they did not break the rules) if that's all you found report worthy.
Also, just to clarify, in the first Seriphyn thread, the moderator who should have posted more within the rules was Havo. Morwen's post seemed constructive to me, when I had time to go back and read it thoroughly. If the other responses there had been in that vein - actually trying to provide useful, constructive advice - it might not have been Catacombed even given the problematic OP.
I would suggest that if you are so deeply dissatisfied with the moderation here, you find somewhere else to spend your time. I'm getting a bit fed up with you being disruptive and trying to undermine the moderation team with accusations which are either outright lies, exaggerations, or which you fail to support with, like, facts. What this looks like is essentially a personal vendetta against Morwen by you, which you couch in terms of complaining about 'a few moderators' and insinuations that we are secretly deleting your supposedly numerous reports. It's also going to stop.
You have 2 options:
1) Leave. It's easy, it's free, and it gets you away from Morwen scarring your psyche with abrasive word-sandpaper. It also gets you away from the conspiracy of mods making your reports magically disappear (actually, it would be me magically disappearing them, since I think you have to be an admin to delete a post in the Reports subforum) and talking crazy about 'facts' and 'things you actually did'.
2) Stay. If you see someone, anyone, actually break the rules then report it - to make our job easier, feel free to reference the rule or guideline you believe they are breaking. Please note that disagreeing with you is not, in and of itself, against the rules. If I see you pursuing a vendetta against Morwen or anyone else, I will drop a sack of mod hammers on you, but that is easily avoided by not abusing the report feature (and given the paucity of reports from you for Morwen, I'm willing to believe that the couple baseless ones were in fact just a fluke) and not flamebaiting/trolling. Post constructively and be merry.
-
I will try to be the most honest possible, with myself included. I have no hope that some of you do the same someday, but i'm not really concerned about that, i'm not expecting it.
You know, the first thing I have been struggling against for the past year and months is what is being discussed in the other thread in the summit section (especially cf Shiori's last answer and conclusion). As you might have noticed, i'm weary of that and as I said I acknowledge that I cared too much. You tend to end up like that when you care for something like backstage.
We have gone into tortuous and convoluted nit picking about various violations, number of reports, because that's what you asked at the beginning. "If you have an issue with a post, report it". I completely agreed with that but now that I look back at it it made you all actually mostly elude the point being discussed in a more general way (again, the one currently discussed in the summit section).
And it also made me go into a personal vendetta against Morwen that completely trash talked me the first time in that slaves in the summit debate for the simple reason that it was unacceptable, and the lack of reaction of the mod team, was unacceptable too. So, you tell me it's a precedent, fine. You could have told it before. In any case I strongly disagree that those posts were not breaking any rules.
You see, the problem is that you tell me to report what I consider to blatantly violate the rules, and you tell me that most of them do not. I concluded since long that my reports were useless and that as I said above, there is a clear problem of communication and what we consider offensive. And yet, I continued to send reports, either for Morwen, or people in general, in good faith. Telling me that 2 of these were done in bad faith is rather stunning to read. If you could, I would like to ask you if you could forward them to me via PM so that with some detachment now I can review them and make up my mind again about these 2. The other 2 of them you tell me that looked like good faith were apparently not enough. Fine, it is your forum, but I still do not understand, and since I can not see the arguments brought to their defense, then it sure will not help me understand better. I am honestly trying to understand most of the time, but it doesn't make sense to me. It's just opaque. The only thing I see is offensive or rule breaking posts for which my reports systematically are deemed done on bad faith or not worth the trouble.
Also I never asked you dispose Morwen or whatever. It's crazy, as you said. The main issue is that not only me but plenty of people over time (as pointed out by Nico in the other thread again) continue to come and complain about the moderation that can't even hold to the rules they are supposed to enforce. That's what I tried to point out all the time, and since you all plugged your ears all the time it was just a matter of time before it got worse and worse until we had that final discussion here, eventually. I would have stopped since long if somehow I noticed that I was the only retard sharing that opinion. Some of the other people that held it too were for some completely non objective and felt wronged by the mod just because of their behaviour. It, though, didn't completely invalidate their complaints at times, since they were thrashed by some mods from time to time. But I was more concerned about the few people that felt better for them to stay away and that actually never caused any issue. And we can see today that we are not the only ones to think the same. I may have forgotten the past months to tell again what made me voice my concerns in the first place in that summit/slavery debate, and my concerns were mostly done to fix, or at least try to fix the issue, but people just kept denying there was one in the first place.
As for your last advice, which is rather insulting btw but whatever, I decided to stopped caring at all. You will probably see no reports from myself from this day on, and no posts from myself in discussions about the community, dramas, or problems to be solved. I will actually stop being what I considered to be constructive and just stop investing myself in the community.
Thank you, and sorry if it ended up like that.
-
Also yes, Morwen's answer was perfectly fine this time, I am not sure that I said somewhere that it wasn't.
One last question : if some mods can perfectly control themselves, why not some others ? You say that they are human and all voluntary and thus, it can happen. Does that mean the other ones are not human ?
-
Also yes, Morwen's answer was perfectly fine this time, I am not sure that I said somewhere that it wasn't.
One last question : if some mods can perfectly control themselves, why not some others ? You say that they are human and all voluntary and thus, it can happen. Does that mean the other ones are not human ?
I don't think anyone, including any of the mods 'perfectly control themselves'. But one thing about humans is that they are all different, handle things in different ways, etc. Otherwise we wouldn't have much to talk about on the board, I suspect.
Edit:
We've acted on many of your reports. There are also others of your reports (including, I believe, a couple cases where you reported the same person multiple times) where we didn't take action. That's how this works. I do notice that on the people (non-mods) where we have taken 0 action based on your reports, you haven't started or piped up in any threads.
It isn't 'tortuous and convoluted nitpicking' when you say, "I report Morwen all the time and you never do anything!" and then I say "Well, I just looked in the reports forum, and all the time is 5 times ever."
The two reports of yours that were borderline in bad faith were not, I think, actually in bad faith. I think your perception was just colored by your conflict with Morwen, which is slightly different. Also, you've only made 4 reports since last time you complained about this, 8 months ago. I don't think that is enough to systematically be anything, unless you are complaining that if you did that many reports, we should act on at least some of them by virtue of the number that were made (more than 1) - which is not how reporting works, explicitly because people would then report people they didn't like for nonsense reasons (and no, I'm not saying you had only nonsense reasons. And as I mentioned, in two of the reports, I could definitely see why you saw it the way you did).
I understand that you feel like it is more than that, or feel like Morwen violates the rules all the time, but I think your past conflicts with him are coloring your perception. If you see a post of his that feels wrong, go into the rules and guidelines, see if it violates one of them, and submit a report if it does. We don't deal in 'It seems like this person always breaks the rules!', we deal in 'Look at all these posts we had to catacomb, and these warnings this person has gotten because they broke the rules'. In Morwen's case I think that is 2 or 3 catacombed posts due to his own actions (as opposed to being swept out with everyone else when a whole thread is Cataed) over the years the board has been open. Which is probably not far off average for long-time users.
-
Editted out. Not useful.
-
Also yes, Morwen's answer was perfectly fine this time, I am not sure that I said somewhere that it wasn't.
One last question : if some mods can perfectly control themselves, why not some others ? You say that they are human and all voluntary and thus, it can happen. Does that mean the other ones are not human ?
I personally would frame it that some people are more suited to the role of moderation than others. Our team is mostly pretty good.
More accurate to say that some people wear the mod hat at all times, while others set it on the mantle from time to time and just participate in the forum they enjoy.
We're not getting paid for this, folks. In fact, Silver is paying for it. That's not a cry for money - it's not that expensive - it's to illustrate the point that any one of us, when we choose to do so, is allowed to post our hearts out without a thought to moderation of the forum because we are vo-lun-teers.
Every volunteer firefighter doesn't drop everything and run to put out every fire. Every volunteer moderator doesn't read every thread as a mod at the expense of their own ever posting.
-
More accurate to say that some people wear the mod hat at all times, while others set it on the mantle from time to time and just participate in the forum they enjoy.
We're not getting paid for this, folks. In fact, Silver is paying for it. That's not a cry for money - it's not that expensive - it's to illustrate the point that any one of us, when we choose to do so, is allowed to post our hearts out without a thought to moderation of the forum because we are vo-lun-teers.
Every volunteer firefighter doesn't drop everything and run to put out every fire. Every volunteer moderator doesn't read every thread as a mod at the expense of their own ever posting.
I've actually resolved to take the mod hat off more, since I find most of my forum activity taking place here or in the mod-only sections it sometimes seems.
-
Also yes, Morwen's answer was perfectly fine this time, I am not sure that I said somewhere that it wasn't.
One last question : if some mods can perfectly control themselves, why not some others ? You say that they are human and all voluntary and thus, it can happen. Does that mean the other ones are not human ?
I don't think anyone, including any of the mods 'perfectly control themselves'. But one thing about humans is that they are all different, handle things in different ways, etc. Otherwise we wouldn't have much to talk about on the board, I suspect.
Edit:
We've acted on many of your reports. There are also others of your reports (including, I believe, a couple cases where you reported the same person multiple times) where we didn't take action. That's how this works. I do notice that on the people (non-mods) where we have taken 0 action based on your reports, you haven't started or piped up in any threads.
It isn't 'tortuous and convoluted nitpicking' when you say, "I report Morwen all the time and you never do anything!" and then I say "Well, I just looked in the reports forum, and all the time is 5 times ever."
The two reports of yours that were borderline in bad faith were not, I think, actually in bad faith. I think your perception was just colored by your conflict with Morwen, which is slightly different. Also, you've only made 4 reports since last time you complained about this, 8 months ago. I don't think that is enough to systematically be anything, unless you are complaining that if you did that many reports, we should act on at least some of them by virtue of the number that were made (more than 1) - which is not how reporting works, explicitly because people would then report people they didn't like for nonsense reasons (and no, I'm not saying you had only nonsense reasons. And as I mentioned, in two of the reports, I could definitely see why you saw it the way you did).
I understand that you feel like it is more than that, or feel like Morwen violates the rules all the time, but I think your past conflicts with him are coloring your perception. If you see a post of his that feels wrong, go into the rules and guidelines, see if it violates one of them, and submit a report if it does. We don't deal in 'It seems like this person always breaks the rules!', we deal in 'Look at all these posts we had to catacomb, and these warnings this person has gotten because they broke the rules'. In Morwen's case I think that is 2 or 3 catacombed posts due to his own actions (as opposed to being swept out with everyone else when a whole thread is Cataed) over the years the board has been open. Which is probably not far off average for long-time users.
Now, there, you are making a lot of negative assumptions... And put words in my mouth. I'm not interested the slightest in that kind of nonsense.
The couple of times I reported twice as you say were recent cases where I eventually got fed up with the absence of mod reaction for things I consider blatant, and asked if you were still considering the case and being late, or you were just dissing me. You seem to disagree, fine. That's why I said I'll stop bother reporting altogether if we can't understand each other.
And that's not the damn point, by the way.
-
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant there have been cases where you reported the same person in multiple different threads. AFAIK I don't think it generates a second report if you report the same post more than once (though it does if different people report the same post, or if you report different posts in the same thread).
-
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant there have been cases where you reported the same person in multiple different threads. AFAIK I don't think it generates a second report if you report the same post more than once (though it does if different people report the same post, or if you report different posts in the same thread).
I make sure every time that I report something with a good reason, not petty vendettas. Or I would have reported every posts from people I have grievances with. I have reported posts from friends and other people all alike, no matter how close they were to me, or agreeable they were. Difficult to do more neutral imo.
I took the system very seriously, because I believed in it.
Also yes, Morwen's answer was perfectly fine this time, I am not sure that I said somewhere that it wasn't.
One last question : if some mods can perfectly control themselves, why not some others ? You say that they are human and all voluntary and thus, it can happen. Does that mean the other ones are not human ?
I personally would frame it that some people are more suited to the role of moderation than others. Our team is mostly pretty good.
More accurate to say that some people wear the mod hat at all times, while others set it on the mantle from time to time and just participate in the forum they enjoy.
We're not getting paid for this, folks. In fact, Silver is paying for it. That's not a cry for money - it's not that expensive - it's to illustrate the point that any one of us, when we choose to do so, is allowed to post our hearts out without a thought to moderation of the forum because we are vo-lun-teers.
Every volunteer firefighter doesn't drop everything and run to put out every fire. Every volunteer moderator doesn't read every thread as a mod at the expense of their own ever posting.
Fair enough.
Although, when you choose to do so, you can post your hearts out without a thought for moderation and insult/curbstomp people just because you are "vo-lun-teers" ? I can understand that mistakes are made, but actively finding excuses to make them sounds rather unwarranted.
Also, every volunteer firefighter doesn't drop oil on the fire they try to extinguish. Except the crazy ones that light forest fires.
-
I think his point was that mods are also forum users, and like other forum users, they occasionally might cross the line in their capacity as forum users - and when they do they are modded for it. They also get bonus scolding from me, which regular forum users don't.
-
This thread displays such a shocking lack of respect that it's kinda breathtaking.
I think some people should consider their position and why they think it is constructive/helpful.
-
I think his point was that mods are also forum users, and like other forum users, they occasionally might cross the line in their capacity as forum users - and when they do they are modded for it. They also get bonus scolding from me, which regular forum users don't.
I'm glad we agree on that.
Sorry to ask another time but could you send me the 2 reports that were not done in bad faith but still quite done in bad faith or something ?
-
I think his point was that mods are also forum users, and like other forum users, they occasionally might cross the line in their capacity as forum users - and when they do they are modded for it. They also get bonus scolding from me, which regular forum users don't.
I'm glad we agree on that.
Sorry to ask another time but could you send me the 2 reports that were not done in bad faith but still quite done in bad faith or something ?
Clearly (to the mod team) baseless, but as I said above, I don't think it was bad faith - I think it was a matter of your particular perspective on Morwen.
-
Can I still get them ?
-
You can call it a weak excuse, but I happen to maybe reason differently at times. It's also a problem of communication.
Lyn, Silver expressed my thought better and with more information than I did, but I'll try to clarify.
Everyone has a certain style of reading and thinking. It seems to me that you have a propensity for sometimes coming up with meanings from a person's statements that others do not. I don't think that it's a cheap shot to point out that this is a meta-style that can persist over locations. I'm sure that you could find similarities between my writing and the writing I do as my character, and I'll admit that many of them have even been frustratingly difficult to alter.
But when I read many of your posts, I have to admit that a recurring perception of mine is "how did he get that out of that?", or "I don't think that the person he's responding to meant to offend, or to imply offense."
If I were doing this, the only motivation I could ascribe to myself was an intention to cause conflict. However, reading some of your subsequent replies, this does not in fact seem to be the case. You do apparently have other motivations, and while I have trouble appreciating them, perhaps, I can certainly recognize that they exist and are valid to you.
Now, this all could very well be me. I'm not always the best at extracting social cues. It could be that there is often an undercurrent of hostility that I simply miss or am unaware of. If this is in fact the case, I would not be averse - if you would not be bothered - in a little instruction as to what I am missing. But it could also be that my perception is at least somewhat accurate, and thus, might be worth consideration.
-
Weird, if Lyn responds to my posts e.g. on IGS, it's usually not by giving the worst possible interpretation...
Excuse me. I do not literally mean, every single post. I mean, temporally, this is neither a rare phenomenon nor a new one, from my perspective, and I think that it is happening with Lyn's interpretation of Morwen and Silver here.
So, when you said every single post, you didn't mean every single post? And when you said Lyn does it all the time, you didn't mean all the time? And when you said with everyone, you didn't really mean everyone either?
So what you really mean is that it happens from time to time? Or what? Maybe you should use less hyperbole next time. <.<
My apologies. I will attempt more precision in the future.
-
Maybe. Perhaps that I tend to see that kind of snipes sprouting everywhere. Most of the time i'm not that far from the truth, it's often between people that do not appreciate each other or do not share the same ideas. Perhaps it makes me paranoid.
But I still don't see what this has to do with the IGS...
-
Can I still get them ?
I sent them to you. Here's what's not going to happen: A whole additional discussion about how valid those posts were for moderation. Because 1) They were both months ago and 2) One of them you already had explained to you in detail. If you do have questions, feel free to contact me, but as I said, no mods saw issues with those posts, and we still don't while you apparently did.
-
Yes, i'm not going to discuss them there (since it would defeat the purpose to send them via PM in the first place).
I still don't understand why they aren't valid though. Answer me via PM, or not if you don't feel like speaking about it.
-
In any case thank you for taking the time to settle that for once, and having had to bear with it all along. Silver, feel free to share my last PMs with Morwen or the mod team if you wish. Maybe it can explain at least a little why it didnt work.