Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE Guides, Mechanics & Gameplay => Topic started by: Anslol on 03 Sep 2013, 10:18
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Is there a guide to help new FC's learn about different strategies for different fleet size? For instance:
Fleet=3-7 Members
1) Do this
2) Do that
3) Have this
Fleet=8-15 Members
1) Do this
2) Don't do that
2a) WHAT DID I JUST SAY?!
3) Have this to make up for ignoring number 2
Fleet=15-30
1) Do this
2) Don't do that (seriously)
2a) Good job
3) Have this
4) Watch for that
Fleet=30-50+
1) Welp...
My roams are uh...getting bigger now :S Could use some lessons.
Edit: Or would helping me be considered aiding the enemy for some?? OR IS IT?! IT'S A CONSPIRACY! I AM FOUND OUT!!! AAAAAH!!!
/me flees
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I did a similar question in FHC, here are a couple of helpful links:
http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?13499-Doctrines-Megathread
http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?12704-TMA-Fleet-doctrines
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....wooooow that's a lot....
I mean it helps cause it talks about logi, EWAR, etc but...wooooow.
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A few here on backstage as well. Try using the research, too lazy to try it myself after that day tbh.
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What day?..
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Today.
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i recalled there was once a small mention on OODA loops here
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1907.msg24623#msg24623
also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare
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PvP strategies, I hope not. Besides, if you have decent PvP knowledge, that scales up excellently with larger gangs.
Communication however scales up very badly, and thus good communication becomes more important than good decisions.
Oddly enought, the bigger your fleet get the less your fleet members have to do while your job gets busier. This means the odds of people going off on their own, not paying attention or doing something stupid goes up while your ability to notice such stuff it goes down.
So, basically, the larger your fleet, the simpler your orders need to be, the more often you need to repeat them: KISS.
Some FCs do informal 'tests' where they see if everybody is aligning properly before they commit to a fight to judge the ability of their fleet to follow orders.
Also, the better you need to be at keeping the spirits up of those people in your fleet that often having nothing interesting to do for a 30 minute stretch at a time while you're juggling 10 tasks at the same time.
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Keep it fun
Don't rage too hard for losing or people fucking up
Repeat your voice commands often in a clear, steady tone.
Everyone in the fleet can tell super fast if you are having a good time and keeping it breezy vs a stressball who is about to have a nervous breakdown. Your emotional state will translate to how everyone else operates as well.
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Also having a general idea of what to do in what situations ahead of time helps immensely.
A good little thought game is to have some of your friends give you random lists of 5 or 6 ships and for you to mentally figure out a target order as fast as you can.
Also having a good idea in your head about relative strengths of groups will save you a lot of pain and death. Getting a rough number of enemies and their ship types, measuring it against your fleet, and knowing if you can have a good fight, die horribly, or wipe the floor with them, will be very useful.
As you get to know your people better you'll start to know if you can push those odds up or down in either direction and make better decisions to fight or not.
The other super important thing, at least once the ships start getting bigger and more tanky for you, is making judgments on if enemy tanks are breaking, going to break, or is it time to switch targets. Your most valuable resource is always TIME. If you spend 30 seconds shooting the most tanky enemy ship and it's getting reps and you get nowhere, you are wasting your time and your people are dying. You have to be able to kind of quickly figure out if you are shooting the wrong thing and if there is a better thing to shoot.
Many many fights that I've won have just been due to bad target calling by the badguys, going after big, tanky, or flashy ships instead of killing things and reducing incoming damage.
Many fights I've lost have been for the same reason.
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OK, here's a situation I ran into and couldn't win cause well, we weren't in big enough ships. But still. The enemy composition was;
2x Vexors (armor tank)
1x Vexor (speed tank)
1x Thorax
1x Caracal
1x Exequror OR 2x Guardians (they switched)
In my mind, if we had an equivalent fleet with cruisers and logi, I would think to assault and neut their logi first. Reason being is that no matter how hard they hit us, it's pointless to hit back because they'll be repped, and deepsing through reps is time better spent deepsing the rep source.
So my priority would be the logi, focus on the exequror, or focus on disabling their chain (ewar 1 logi/neut 1, kill other). THEN, go after the caracal, then vexors, then thorax.
Logical?
If so...GIMME MORE TESTS.
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Generally yea that's the way to go!
But occasionally you might have enough blap to just ignore their reps entirely. You can always toss all your ewar/neuts onto one of the logis and then just work on your primaries since the chain will be dead and the logi's fairly useless.
Sometimes especially with cruisers they just don't have the buffer to survive more than a handful of volleys and you can blap them out before logi gets to work on them very much.
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Fascinating...
....can I get another scenario/test? LOL
EDIT: I actually have one.
I had a fleet of 10-11 with logi, ewar, heavy destroyer count. We've torn through AFs before with minimal losses but were jumped by about 18 AF's/Faction frigates (enyos, hawks, IN slicer, comet, etc). I had has warp out cause I didn't think we could handle it...but in retrospect, we've demolished AFs before. Could I have taken them? They had no logi or ewar to speak of, but their deeps were like WHOA.
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Ask Merd, my frig/destroyer meta is fairly shite :P
I mean on paper if you are all shooting the right stuff at the same time you should be able to pop all those guys in like 1 or 2 volleys each? Just alpha, next, alpha, next, alpha, next all the way down the line.
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Speed tank says no...I think.
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Destroyers aren't built to handle that kind of thing?
Those frigs will all be picking on someone and orbiting around them but your entire dessie wing will be getting plenty of good shots from different vantage points where transversal will be super low?
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Tell that to the Slicer moving away at 4,000+ m/s or the asshole Hawk with medium ASBs. My ship pushes 2,000 m/s and catching people in frigs is still a problem sometimes. Slicers and Hookbills man...Slicers and Hookbills.
Also a lot of us are short range and brawly to keep people webbed and scrammed to avoid said running away of the enemy so..eh. The RR helps but still.
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Tell that to the Slicer moving away at 4,000+ m/s or the asshole Hawk with medium ASBs. My ship pushes 2,000 m/s and catching people in frigs is still a problem sometimes. Slicers and Hookbills man...Slicers and Hookbills.
Also a lot of us are short range and brawly to keep people webbed and scrammed to avoid said running away of the enemy so..eh. The RR helps but still.
Don't try to catch them (you cant). You are a death blossom of destroyer rageface, if they want to tango they will have to come to you and you proceed to chew them to oblivion.
I assumed your query was that they wanted to fight and you were the one that left the scene? If those frigs want to engage then let them 'come at me bro' and die in a fire :)
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Wanted to avoid massive losses, as we had lost...nothing that roam. Our kill to loss ratio has just kept getting better and better, really good for the guys to see it.
But I guess the take away was that I should have engaged and that, even if we died, they would have had more pricey loses.
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Mh'yes, it probably would've ended up a big brawly bloodbath. You might've come out ahead on ISK, but avoiding it wasn't a bad call, necessarily.
Try encouraging your destroyer guys to fit mid-range (20-30k), maybe. Enough deeps to crack most things still, pick off brawlers while they're motoring around, evaporate disruptor-range kiters.
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How does long range handle fast moving frigates? They just sort of lol as they zip around while artys and such miss.
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IIRC Dessies will have range and tracking bonuses over AF's/Frigs every day of the week? If they can hit you you can hit them, twice as hard.
If they are buzzing around a 4k/s they aren't shooting you, shoot someone you can.
And trading a bunch of cheap dessies for t2 ships is always win.
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Huh...I tried blapping a condor zooming around me once at 2-3k m/s. Range went from ooh...7,000m to 12km. Couldn't touch it :\
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Huh...I tried blapping a condor zooming around me once at 2-3k m/s. Range went from ooh...7,000m to 12km. Couldn't touch it :\
7-12km he should be scram/web dead?
The point is they can kite all they want and be ignored. If they get in their weapons range your dessies should murder them.
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Well the condor in my solo case got scrammed and that shut down the MWD, but they still managed to use traversal to get away from me. They just slipped in and out of my scram range and sling shotted their ship. My artys couldn't keep up.
Happened again with autocannons and the son of a bitch died. Same guy too. I felt good podding him :3
Regardless, I dunno. I suck at long range with dessies lol. They just move and keep their angle good enough to avoid shots many times.
vOv
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Yea I'd stick with brawly stuff for most of your guys, maybe have a few fit range gear just to be able to poke at people on their way in or out. When they are zooming straight at you with 0 transversal a few dessies with long range kit can likely get a super nice alpha on them before they start orbiting.
I pulled it off once on an interceptor with an apoc; waited until the little zoomy bastard turned and made a run at me from like 200km doing a few km/s, soon as he got into optimal he was one-shotted and sad.
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We never alpha'd anything yet...we did melt a Rote scythe fleet issue pretty fast. His reinforcements showed up in local right after he popped so we rolled out quick. Was funny.
But yeah. I guess the take away was that we should have stayed and taken on the squishy pricey ones (comet, enyo, ishkurs, etc vs. med asb hawks, slicers, tormentors).
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From experience once your fleet is big enough, long range weapons are the best. You just have to spread out and align everyone out, and shoot at stuff from various angles. If they try to primary your members, they will have to run huge distances between each one of you, while you all bleed them to death. You can also engage at most ranges. Tracking doesnt really matter when everyone is long range.
Does only work with fleets of good size though, more than 20 I would say.
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From experience once your fleet is big enough, long range weapons are the best. You just have to spread out and align everyone out, and shoot at stuff from various angles. If they try to primary your members, they will have to run huge distances between each one of you, while you all bleed them to death. You can also engage at most ranges. Tracking doesnt really matter when everyone is long range.
Does only work with fleets of good size though, more than 20 I would say.
....we've gotten a weee bit above 20 now >.>.....
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Skirmish fleets that fight aligned are very ~no mistakes~
Try to have perches on the target before you engage on it. The first four and a bounce are essential, six is best for maximum mobility on grid. If you do not have those perches already made, a far bounce and a combat prober (best to use an alt) can do the job. Use both and you are gold. Use interceptors and you are pro level for skirmishers. For fighting with skirmishers in FW, it is best to use range+speed over many of the slower but harder hitting skirmishers. Talwars, SDestrels, snoop bills, Boi Heretics, Crows, etc. (flycatcher too though I haven't seen them yet.) All of these doctrines are light missile, what is transversal doctrines that rely on range and effective kiting to win. They are far far more effective in lowsec than proper skirmishers simply because there are no bubbles and much smaller ranges and targets. Skirmish Naga's won't do the jobs better than skirmish Talwars in low. They use range, and speed/sig tanking to avoid enemy damage, the best doctrines are ones that are cap stable or very good in one area or more. They rely on alpha as well and take time to hit their target so splitting stacks and calling volleys work well once you get the hang of it. FC's job is to anchor and call targets, drive them away, kite effectively and prioritize fast tackle so your fleet doesn't get snatched.
There is no better way to learn how to effectively skirmish and these kinds of fleets are often cheap, easy and loads of fun while still hitting well above their weight. =)