Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: JMadFour on 01 Aug 2013, 14:18
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I see you guys in IGS using these a lot.
Please explain them to me, so that I know what I am reading.
thanks!
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It's part of the player made Caldari language Napaani, a language system created as something fun for people to use/immerse in OOCly, and create an IC explanation of how the Caldari communicate despite having broad and varying linguistic and cultural backgrounds. It's akin to Mandarin Chinese versus other dialects (Cantonese, Changshahua, Weinan-huu, etc).
There's a primer...and I have it downloaded...but I forgot from where. When I'm home I'll make an upload for you!
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-haan = Citizen (male)
-haani = Citizen (female)
-suuolo = Friend
-Kirjuun = Admixture of Comrade/Coworker/Sibling
-guri = Gangmember/Criminal
-hnolku = Criminal
-baka = Idiot/Fool
-tyuui = Scum
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There's a primer...and I have it downloaded...but I forgot from where. When I'm home I'll make an upload for you!
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Ken/Napanii_Primer_(July_10)%5B1%5D.pdf
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-haan = Citizen (male)
-haani = Citizen (female)
-suuolo = Friend
-Kirjuun = Admixture of Comrade/Coworker/Sibling
-guri = Gangmember/Criminal
-hnolku = Criminal
-baka = Idiot/Fool
-tyuui = Scum
This is basically all you need to know. The only other Napaani words that come up are:
'Heian' is difficult to translate, and essentially means 'Caldari ideal'; what all Caldari should aspire to be in their actions and mindset.
Jaijii = Foreigner, derogatory implication. Used both independently and as a suffix.
...why do I have a horrible feeling I've misspelled those?
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I've made a few edits to Pieter's post.
-Kirjuun = Admixture of Comrade/Coworker/Sibling Close, but Kirjuun is not used in the familial sense, as it means comrade in the sense of service to a common organization, like a fellow corp officer.
-guri = Gangmember/Criminal "Naughty", in the criminal sense. Guri literally translates into naughty, as Guristas translates into "naughty people" and is a slang term for gang.
-hnolku = Criminal "Traitor" It's literally taken from a family name. Ullia Hnolku, the creatore of Insorum, ended up branded a traitor of the Caldari State in some live event arc I was never around for.
NAPANII GREETINGS AND SALUTATIONS
Hello: Saisieni
Hi: Saisa
Goodbye: Uaaka
Thanks: Rikaato
NOUNS
Patriot: Uakan
Practical: Usari
Liberal: Ualaa
Ship: Maru
Pod: Yasun
Station: Sasaanko
Planet: Wakuu
Sun: Aunni
Moon: Tsuun
Foreigner: Jaijii
Friend: Suuolo
Citizen: lastname-haani(fem)/-haan(male)
Comrade: Kirjuun (As in, a fellow corp Officer)
Loyal: Onuoto (Ukaki do onuoto, Hnolku tyuui...)
Traitor: Hnolku
Fool: Baka
Dissident: Jaalan
Scum: Tyuui
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I've made a few edits to Pieter's post.
-Kirjuun = Admixture of Comrade/Coworker/Sibling Close, but Kirjuun is not used in the familial sense, as it means comrade in the sense of service to a common organization, like a fellow corp officer.
-guri = Gangmember/Criminal "Naughty", in the criminal sense. Guri literally translates into naughty, as Guristas translates into "naughty people" and is a slang term for gang.
-hnolku = Criminal "Traitor" It's literally taken from a family name. Ullia Hnolku, the creatore of Insorum, ended up branded a traitor of the Caldari State in some live event arc I was never around for.
Kirjuun doesn't mean a familymember precisely, no, but there is an essence of 'family' in close co-worker relationships in the State, which is what I was trying to allude to.
Guri is obviously derived from the Japanese words 'gumi' which refers to a gang. It is usually referred to solely in the case of those in organised crime, although the flavour of it is closer to the bosozoku gangs who tend to DO a lot of criminal shit but aren't criminal as their raison d'etre.
-hnolku - totally right.
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I've made a few edits to Pieter's post.
-Kirjuun = Admixture of Comrade/Coworker/Sibling Close, but Kirjuun is not used in the familial sense, as it means comrade in the sense of service to a common organization, like a fellow corp officer.
-guri = Gangmember/Criminal "Naughty", in the criminal sense. Guri literally translates into naughty, as Guristas translates into "naughty people" and is a slang term for gang.
-hnolku = Criminal "Traitor" It's literally taken from a family name. Ullia Hnolku, the creatore of Insorum, ended up branded a traitor of the Caldari State in some live event arc I was never around for.
Kirjuun doesn't mean a familymember precisely, no, but there is an essence of 'family' in close co-worker relationships in the State, which is what I was trying to allude to.
Guri is obviously derived from the Japanese words 'gumi' which refers to a gang. It is usually referred to solely in the case of those in organised crime, although the flavour of it is closer to the bosozoku gangs who tend to DO a lot of criminal shit but aren't criminal as their raison d'etre.
-hnolku - totally right.
I fuckin love raisins.
Anyways, yeah I see where you're coming from with the rest of it.
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-haan = Citizen (male)
-haani = Citizen (female)
-suuolo = Friend
-Kirjuun = Admixture of Comrade/Coworker/Sibling
-guri = Gangmember/Criminal
-hnolku = Criminal
-baka = Idiot/Fool
-tyuui = Scum
hah, this I love.
why?
Cause Excalibur.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOUdopw2k3M
anyhow, thanks everyone for the explanations, makes things a lot clearer for me.
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Not a problem at all! If you want anymore help with Caldari Faction RP, please feel free to drop me a PM here, an Evemail in game or just grab me for a chat.
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-haan = Citizen (male)
-haani = Citizen (female)
I'm part of Stitcher's hipster lonetrek camp on how Napanii should be, wherein Haan is gender neutral and singular, and haani is plural, with the reasoning that a society like the caldari state doesn't seem like one that would place emphasis on gender in that regard.
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There's many ways to read it, with regards to Caldari gender differentiation. Frigid homeworld, all in. Or, frigid homeworld, keep the women at home so we can guarantee that the childbearers will not succumb to the cold. If we let them work, the survival of the species is doomed. With the 'survival of the fittest' angle, one can easily argue women should not work (in pre-industrial Caldari ofc) because that means the domestic life could not be supported. It's why many women are stuck in the home in deprived parts of the world; a rough environment (both climatically, scientifically, and economically) means that there must be a domestic support base otherwise the men will be coming home to nothing. Tangentially, I worked for an Indian NGO that aimed to give rural women their own set of skills to support the community; simply liberating them would result in a societal collapse in those places.
I presume that's why the Gallente were able to espouse liberty and equality; they could afford it, because their homeworld was comfortable in all senses.
That's just one idea, just to challenge the 'hipster lonetrek camp', but I wouldn't parade it around as absolute truth or anything. Modern Caldari might be different, but for some reason the Caldari are written to have not sociologically evolved from their Stone Age. Who knows why.
"We have hundreds of worlds, over a thousand stations, and the most advanced technology in New Eden. No longer do we need to continue living as our ancestors did!"
"Lolnope"
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-haan = Citizen (male)
-haani = Citizen (female)
I'm part of Stitcher's hipster lonetrek camp on how Napanii should be, wherein Haan is gender neutral and singular, and haani is plural, with the reasoning that a society like the caldari state doesn't seem like one that would place emphasis on gender in that regard.
I'm not sure 'hipster lonetrek camp' is quite the most flattering way to describe it. :P
That said, when I started RPing in EVE I'm pretty sure that it was used as a singular/plural thing rather than gender. I'm not sure when the change happened. For a supposedly collectivist society I'm not sure using it as a gender suffix makes as much sense as quantity would, though.
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my thought towards an in character explanation for it was that when a woman was pregnant it be cutesy/flattering/etc to refer to her in the plural, (her+child), and it just evolved from that.
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Modern Caldari might be different, but for some reason the Caldari are written to have not sociologically evolved from their Stone Age. Who knows why.
In fact, it's quite easy to identify some major changes in Caldari history in PF. Simply because Caldari don't conform to our (post-)modern inclination and sensitivities to what we consider as 'sociologically evolved' doesn't mean they didn't change from the social order of their Stone Age. The problem here is the use of 'evolved' in a normative sense and presupposing that everything should be measured by our standards.
The haan/haani distinction as male/female seems to be in existence from one of the 2010 versions, given the Napaani Primer is dated such, still and no later updates are indicated. Interestingly, if gender/sex is uncertain the caldari default to the feminine form.
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Modern Caldari might be different, but for some reason the Caldari are written to have not sociologically evolved from their Stone Age. Who knows why.
In fact, it's quite easy to identify some major changes in Caldari history in PF. Simply because Caldari don't conform to our (post-)modern inclination and sensitivities to what we consider as 'sociologically evolved' doesn't mean they didn't change from the social order of their Stone Age. The problem here is the use of 'evolved' in a normative sense and presupposing that everything should be measured by our standards.
This. Thank you.
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my thought towards an in character explanation for it was that when a woman was pregnant it be cutesy/flattering/etc to refer to her in the plural, (her+child), and it just evolved from that.
That would work. I normally just shrug and say "Lol-Lonetrek."
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-guri = Gangmember/Criminal
When I as Dex use(d) -guri in conversations with characters like Aria or Kyoko, my intent is (was) to not portray them as outside the community of the Caldari, but as a naughty aspect of the Caldari whole. I would propose that foreign criminals, like all foreigners, are called Jaijii (by both -haan and -guri).
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Guri are... Well, they're not jaijii I agree.
Canon seems sort of a little unclear on how reviled they are by the State. I guess the corporations dislike them intensely and the Navy seems to hate them too - but how does the average Joee-haan on the street feel about them?
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Depends of the background of the Joe-haan, but most likely reviled as the example of what could become of them if they slip between the cracks.
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-haan = Citizen (male)
-haani = Citizen (female)
I'm part of Stitcher's hipster lonetrek camp on how Napanii should be, wherein Haan is gender neutral and singular, and haani is plural, with the reasoning that a society like the caldari state doesn't seem like one that would place emphasis on gender in that regard.
From what I know, the literal meaning of these suffixes is "Comrade" as official honorific. And when you are not sure about the gender, you use "-haani" for both males and females.
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The history of it is that Napanii was invented to service the need for a lingua franca in the newly-formed State. It's a constructed language, in other words. The thing to remember about constructed languages is that they use consistent and rigid rules for things like pluralization and so on. In English we have oddities like "sheep/sheep", "mouse/mice" and "goose/geese" because the language was mashed together by common usage over centuries and has loaned both words and grammar from foreign dialects. If English were a constructed, consistent language then the plurals would me "Sheeps", "Mouses" and "Gooses"
"-haan" literally just means "citizen". It's a gender-neutral term by definition. The English equivalent to the feminine "haani" would be "citizeness" which is an absurd, divisive construct which serves only to suggest that men and women are different kinds of citizen. That's not in keeping with how I think of Caldari attitudes.
Remember, the whole "-haan" thing was inspired by the Japanese "-san" tradition, which itself is gender-neutral.
The correct pluralizations for all Napanii nouns and verbs is actually -t/-et/-at/-ut. So the plural term "citizens" would be "Haanat"
"-i" is the stem for infinitive expression and present action. Applying it to "haan" results in the term you use when referring to citizenry in an abstract or objectified way.
"I am a citizen" = "Nei haani
"This citizen" = "Hanta haani"
"Those citizens" = "Soyi haanat"
"We citizens" = "Kiriit haanat"
"All citizens of the Caldari State" = "Haanaten Caldarin Vaktikun"
So in fact, "haani" when used to refer to a woman treats her as an object rather than as a person. Which suggests a rather more sinister explanation than the cutesy "you're pregnant! I'm going to start calling you citizens-plural now."
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The history of it is that Napanii was invented to service the need for a lingua franca in the newly-formed State. It's a constructed language, in other words. The thing to remember about constructed languages is that they use consistent and rigid rules for things like pluralization and so on. In English we have oddities like "sheep/sheep", "mouse/mice" and "goose/geese" because the language was mashed together by common usage over centuries and has loaned both words and grammar from foreign dialects. If English were a constructed, consistent language then the plurals would me "Sheeps", "Mouses" and "Gooses"
"-haan" literally just means "citizen". It's a gender-neutral term by definition. The English equivalent would be "citizeness" which is an absurd, divisive construct which serves only to suggest that men and women are different kinds of citizen. That's not in keeping with how I think of Caldari attitudes.
I've been treating "-haani" as a gender-based construct quirk that slipped in the common use back door from old Caldari-Federation language (likely a flavor of Gallente) mashups.
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Question. When I brought up the possibility of expanding napanii, it was met with criticism saying that anything added would not be napanii. However, the original person who made it is...well MIA.
Why can we not work on an agreeable expansion to the primer without the original creator's input? Why must he have the final say? Why can we not make it a living document and language and, as players, continue to further enrich it?
Not trying to be snippy/annoying, I'm just wondering what everyone's opinion is re: linguistic expansion.
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I'm in favour. I've found that it's missing some important words, and is inconsistent to boot. It's pure fanon, we have a perfect right to muck around with it.
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Question. When I brought up the possibility of expanding napanii, it was met with criticism saying that anything added would not be napanii. However, the original person who made it is...well MIA.
Why can we not work on an agreeable expansion to the primer without the original creator's input? Why must he have the final say? Why can we not make it a living document and language and, as players, continue to further enrich it?
Not trying to be snippy/annoying, I'm just wondering what everyone's opinion is re: linguistic expansion.
Was Napanii his thing and/or copyrighted or something ?
My opinion about some interpretations of Napanii is well known though.
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I'm in favour. I've found that it's missing some important words, and is inconsistent to boot. It's pure fanon, we have a perfect right to muck around with it.
I agree with Stitcher definitely.
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The problem with multiple interpretations of Napanii is that the Primer states that Napanii is IC used explicitly to overcome dialect issues. This means that it does not change from region to region, does not have multiple versions, and is highly formalized. It's a necessary inflexibility so that somebody with a Lonetrek accent can't butcher the words or meanings, so that somebody from Black Rise can still understand him. It also means that we all have to agree on one version of it, because "-haani" can't mean three different things. It has to mean one thing alone.
Maybe that's not what Herko intended, and maybe he didn't add that to the Primer. Not sure. But it's worth noting it.
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I understand the issue with the dialect thing. But can't that be bypassed by just developing and agreeing on words to help complete sentences? The thing needs more verbs, adjectives, adverbs, etc. I mean it's impossible to write a single sentence from my post in napanii without missing words. I've tried to have Anslo speak it in such a way that a conversation could be had with it. But as the thing is now, it's not really feasible.
I dunno. Personally, I'm for expanding the thing in a slow, logical, step by step process. IF it is to be expanded, this isn't a 2 week project kinda thing.
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I think there may be some desire to avoid taking the language past the level of it being a 'flavour'. We don't want to make there be so much to it that new Caldari RPers are overwhelmed and can't interact.
The problem with multiple interpretations of Napanii is that the Primer states that Napanii is IC used explicitly to overcome dialect issues. This means that it does not change from region to region, does not have multiple versions, and is highly formalized. It's a necessary inflexibility so that somebody with a Lonetrek accent can't butcher the words or meanings, so that somebody from Black Rise can still understand him. It also means that we all have to agree on one version of it, because "-haani" can't mean three different things. It has to mean one thing alone.
I would have to ask then, what's to stop the language from mutating over time anyway, as is the fate of all languages? It would seem to me that the only languages that don't change over time are the ones presently in the process of dying out. Language is never static, never fixed. "-haani" clearly does mean three different things now. People have made it mean different things by imparting our own varied meanings on it. That's how language works.
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Frankly, the "haani" thing is the only real bugbear of mine. I'd LOVE to see it gone.
But, whether or not Napanii was INTENDED to be the uniform, unchanging language of the entire State doesn't mean it won't change and be subject to colloquialisms and dialects. Short of making it illegal to speak Napanii in anything other than a grammatical way, which would be hideously impractical, you just can't prevent that from happening.
I do think maybe we should take the primer and improve on it some, though. The language has been sitting stagnant for a while and needs new words for things like "Sleeper", "wormhole", "DUST trooper" and so on. Plus things like colours.
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And love please. The Caldari do have a concept for love.
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Oh come on, the fun part is making up your own endearments. :)
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And love please. The Caldari do have a concept for love.
Romantic love would be "Rakk". "Rakkaan" would be "beloved" and "Rakkai" is "most loved"
I guess maybe we also need words for familial love, "I love this ice cream" and bromance.
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And love please. The Caldari do have a concept for love.
Romantic love would be "Rakk". "Rakkaan" would be "beloved" and "Rakkai" is "most loved"
Caldari love involves annoying pterodactyl things that spawn from a vagina-faced monster?
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Caldari love involves annoying pterodactyl things that spawn from a vagina-faced monster?
I always did have a theory that the reason for the Caldari tube child program was due to the penchant of Deteis women to kill their mates after fertilization and then use the bodies of the male as a source of nourishment and sustenance for their broodspawn.
So I guess when a Deteis lady says, "I love you" what it really means is, "I want to lay my eggs inside your corpse"?
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Notable that saying "I love you" directly to somebody is considered a very Western/American thing in cultures outside of the West.
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To do so in public, certainly. In private...
well, I maintain that Caldari capsuleers tend to get some of the harsh angles knocked off them just by rubbing shoulders with fellow Empyreans. When you're surrounded by happy-go-lucky Intaki or whatever on a daily basis, then your only options for coping are to either mellow out, or go full Diana Kim.
Never go full Diana Kim.
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Bromance should be 'ansieter.' Clearly.
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Notable that saying "I love you" directly to somebody is considered a very Western/American thing in cultures outside of the West.
that's less that other cultures languages don't say it, and more that, most cultures languages, have different words for familial love, romantic love, friendship, liking something, etc.
For instance, in hebrew, ahavah (אהבה), is the word for romantic/intimate/familial love, and chesed (חסד), is the word for...I suppose the best way to translate it would be 'loving kindness'.
For another example, in Greek, there is, Agapê (love, charity), Philia (friendship, love), and Storgê (natural affection).
The fact that the English language rolls all these ideas and concepts into one word, 'love' is really something unique to the English language.
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I don't see why the Caldari would not make a distinction between men and women, and have words for that.
Since the Caldari are the faction where homophobia is well established in the PF, as a part of Caldari culture and society. Look at all those exiled homosexual ex-navy officers in the Guristas and other places.
Man, woman. and idealised concepts of what their roles are in society.
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I don't see why the Caldari would not make a distinction between men and women, and have words for that.
Since the Caldari are the faction where homophobia is well established in the PF, as a part of Caldari culture and society. Look at all those exiled homosexual ex-navy officers in the Guristas and other places.
Man, woman. and idealised concepts of what their roles are in society.
The homophobia isn't a gender thing 'man should not lie with man' style though. It's a 'how dare that unpatriotic homosexual not breed and expand our workforce' thing. Right?
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I don't see why the Caldari would not make a distinction between men and women, and have words for that.
Since the Caldari are the faction where homophobia is well established in the PF, as a part of Caldari culture and society. Look at all those exiled homosexual ex-navy officers in the Guristas and other places.
Man, woman. and idealised concepts of what their roles are in society.
The homophobia isn't a gender thing 'man should not lie with man' style though. It's a 'how dare that unpatriotic homosexual not breed and expand our workforce' thing. Right?
I don't know.
Since there is clearly a big homophobic element to Caldari culture, then there are obviously societal expectations as to how men and women should behave.
And societal expectations, can be laid onto someone through use of language.
E.g. saying "Lieutenant" to someone, reminds them of their Rank, and the expectations of Duty that society expects of them.
So, -haan referring to a man citizen and -haani to a woman citizen, is a subtle reminder to them, of the expectations of society.
No ?
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I don't see why the Caldari would not make a distinction between men and women, and have words for that.
Since the Caldari are the faction where homophobia is well established in the PF, as a part of Caldari culture and society. Look at all those exiled homosexual ex-navy officers in the Guristas and other places.
Man, woman. and idealised concepts of what their roles are in society.
The homophobia isn't a gender thing 'man should not lie with man' style though. It's a 'how dare that unpatriotic homosexual not breed and expand our workforce' thing. Right?
What Jianni said was my thought, for one, and I think for two, is that its possible they are anti-gay as a way to be Anti-Gallente. Similar to how certain groups have decried the anti-gay 'propaganda' laws in Russia as being a way for the Russian government to try to distance themselves from American/western culture.
I think napanii likely would have words to make a distinction between man and woman, I just don't think citizen would be one of the words they draw the distinction using, and especially since, as stitcher pointed out, '-haani', isn't even grammatically correct, when compared to the rest of the language.
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I'm with Louella. Grammatical error aside, I don't think gender neutrality has a place in the State given the PF that's available. If homosexuality is kinda looked bad at, why would gender-queer individuals be looked at any better, let alone have vernacular to help them fit in?
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I'm with Louella. Grammatical error aside, I don't think gender neutrality has a place in the State given the PF that's available. If homosexuality is kinda looked bad at, why would gender-queer individuals be looked at any better, let alone have vernacular to help them fit in?
Well, the grammatical error isn't exactly something that should be ignored. If there needs to be words to refer to someone's gender in conversation, like the Caldari version of Sir or Ma'am, then we can come up with some, but they should fit in with the rest of the grammar of the language.
One interesting place that would sort of make sense to add gendering would be to gender Heiian. To split it into 'men's duty' and 'women's duty.'
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Can you clarify the error in -haan and -haani? Because, for instance, in Japanese, you use the words separately when addressing genders (i.e. Obasan vs Ojisan).
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Citizen, is a word that would be used to lay on societal expectations, pretty heavily.
the whole thing with "heiian" meaning "Heiian: This word cannot readily be translated, it is the concept of supreme loyalty over anything else to the State. It applies readily to military service but can be applied to any other work aiding the State", it's a word that conveys a whole bunch of stuff in a single word. Economy of expression.
So, -haan meaning male citizen, conveys a whole bunch of stuff about what it means to be an idealised Caldari Man, and so on and so forth.
Communist parties used "comrade" instead of "mister/miss" for same reasons, to convey more than just a means of addressing someone.
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So is she suggesting doing away with -haani/-haan in favor of a more 'comrade' type form of address?
If that's the case, I'm still 100% against it.
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I have no preference but can readily see both sides of this argument. The homophobic angle would be correct, from the societal point of view. Ie. make babies not rainbows muthafcuker. So for this reason and because the holy primer says so, I will continue to use the existing -haan/-haani suffixes for the correct gender.
On the other side there is a foundation (I have no time to find the links sorry) for the State maintaining actual equality between men and women. None of this psuedo equality we have today. Men and women in the state are not (or rather should not) be discriminated upon due to their gender. So rolling -haan/-haani into one word would fit along those lines.
I guess basically I don't see anything wrong with any of the arguments. That said, because there is nothing wrong, I see no reason to change it.
My £0.02
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my point was, the communists used "comrade" as a form of address, to remind people of the whole communist struggle, with every sentence. They were trying to create a whole new culture.
It changes people's views of each other, when language is used like that.
single word of "-haan" to remind a person of the entireity of the concepts of "being loyal to the State, aspiring to be the ideal Caldari Man". Same for "-haani" to remind of "being loyal to the State, aspiring to be the ideal Caldari Woman".
It's a term that would be required to be used all the time, and as such, is a very strong tool in reinforcing the societal expectations of the culture.
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Can you clarify the error in -haan and -haani? Because, for instance, in Japanese, you use the words separately when addressing genders (i.e. Obasan vs Ojisan).
What Stitcher says here sums it up:
The history of it is that Napanii was invented to service the need for a lingua franca in the newly-formed State. It's a constructed language, in other words. The thing to remember about constructed languages is that they use consistent and rigid rules for things like pluralization and so on. In English we have oddities like "sheep/sheep", "mouse/mice" and "goose/geese" because the language was mashed together by common usage over centuries and has loaned both words and grammar from foreign dialects. If English were a constructed, consistent language then the plurals would me "Sheeps", "Mouses" and "Gooses"
"-haan" literally just means "citizen". It's a gender-neutral term by definition. The English equivalent to the feminine "haani" would be "citizeness" which is an absurd, divisive construct which serves only to suggest that men and women are different kinds of citizen. That's not in keeping with how I think of Caldari attitudes.
Remember, the whole "-haan" thing was inspired by the Japanese "-san" tradition, which itself is gender-neutral.
The correct pluralizations for all Napanii nouns and verbs is actually -t/-et/-at/-ut. So the plural term "citizens" would be "Haanat"
"-i" is the stem for infinitive expression and present action. Applying it to "haan" results in the term you use when referring to citizenry in an abstract or objectified way.
"I am a citizen" = "Nei haani
"This citizen" = "Hanta haani"
"Those citizens" = "Soyi haanat"
"We citizens" = "Kiriit haanat"
"All citizens of the Caldari State" = "Haanaten Caldarin Vaktikun"
So in fact, "haani" when used to refer to a woman treats her as an object rather than as a person. Which suggests a rather more sinister explanation than the cutesy "you're pregnant! I'm going to start calling you citizens-plural now."
The 'comrade' thing is worth pointing out, its notable that in Russian, comrade is товарищ (tovarishch), which is gender neutral. It would seem to me that being a citizen, and having duty to the state would transcend gender. You are a citizen, your gender is irrelevant as long as you do your Duty to the State.
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Point taken. Still, I prefer -haan, -haani.
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Given the clearly stated PF of homophobia, the "Duty to the State" is then apparently dependent on the individual citizens gender. That is, a woman has a different Duty to the State than a man.
E.g. Kaikka Peunato. PF states: "Peunato, an extremely competent pilot, was forced out of the Caldari Navy when he revealed he was gay."
the Duty to the State was incompatible in some way with being homosexual. Thus, the Duty to the State has a clear gender role part to it. Which means man/woman has significant relevance, and so, would be something that an artificial language would want to emphasise.
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..I'm confused. So the Russians were wrong, then? Or did they expect men to start carrying children as well?
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I see both points of the arguments. Both sound sensible.
I would even tend to think that -haan can be pretty generic and gender neutral - much like -san in japanese - where -haani could be just a specific way to address a woman when one wants to make it clear.
Maybe -haan is ambiguous, and can be either neutral (in the sense of the status and title of the individual like in japanese, meaning, part of the Caldari and thus not a jaiji like gaijin in japanese) or masculine (in the sense of citizen or the persona, with a duty, male or female).
Maybe better to compare it to the suffix -kun rather than -san in japanese, -san being exclusively a title of rank and status where -kun is either used to express attachment to someone, either used for juniors (rank and status here), or either used as a specific way to address to male individuals (reference to the sex of the person here).
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It'll be the mother of all cluster-fucks to change it now.
Can't it be an inherited construct from the original Raata era language?
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Given the clearly stated PF of homophobia, the "Duty to the State" is then apparently dependent on the individual citizens gender. That is, a woman has a different Duty to the State than a man.
E.g. Kaikka Peunato. PF states: "Peunato, an extremely competent pilot, was forced out of the Caldari Navy when he revealed he was gay."
the Duty to the State was incompatible in some way with being homosexual. Thus, the Duty to the State has a clear gender role part to it. Which means man/woman has significant relevance, and so, would be something that an artificial language would want to emphasise.
In a setting where bodies are grown and a civilization increased its population through entirely artificial mass procreation, how does a woman carrying a child for 9 months even matter? It takes the woman away from duties that can otherwise not be fulfilled by common place medical systems!
Secondly, there are multiple threads about the topic of homosexuality in the State. The State and sexuality (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=873.0) and Gender in New Eden (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3349.msg52737#msg52737). Or said another way, the PF is not as clear on closer examination.
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What's always clear in the State is that whilst you don't have to toe the State line in private, acting openly against social and cultural norms is heavily frowned upon.
Heavily.
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It'll be the mother of all cluster-fucks to change it now.
Can't it be an inherited construct from the original Raata era language?
It was changed in the first place. Seriously, when I was first introduced to Napanii, it was "haan" for both genders, end of. As I said, the entire point was to echo the Japanese "-san", which is genderless, and the soviet "comrade". Remember, this primer (http://tinyurl.com/kdn6haf) was compiled after Napanii had been around for a while. If it still existed, I'd link to a much older Fourth District thread on the subject where the word "haani" was conspicuously absent.
Anyway: Whether or not there are gender-based expectations of what constitutes a person's duty to the State is not in any way relevant to whether or not the word "duty" itself requires gender variance.
Real example: "Men's work" versus "Women's work." the word "Work" is identical between them. It doesn't describe a specific activity or expectation, it just describes expending energy to accomplish a task. When I say "I am going to work" I am telling you precisely nothing about what my job entails or what qualifications are involved in being able to do it.
I think that the same should be true for "heiian" and "haan". Heiian is the abstract concept itself. If you want to talk about "male heiian" versus "female heiian" then again, the concept of having a heiian of some description remains neutral and non-prescriptive. The same goes for "citizen".
Laying aside the whole question of institutional sexism for a second, this is the Caldari we're talking about - in some cases irrational and impulsive, in others pragmatic to a fault. Remember: Napanii was invented, and designed to facilitate communication across a culture of billions of people. The creation of a common language for the State would absolutely fall under the second bracket. The language would be designed so as to be terse, economical, and flexible.
Brevity and clarity would be essential tools in such a language. If you have two words which mean the exact same thing, but one of them is the masculine form and the other is the feminine, then you're unnecessarily cluttering up the language with redundant vocabulary, which I feel its history would preclude. In inventing Napanii, I feel they would actively have looked for opportunities to condense the vocabulary.
Caldari would reserve masculine and feminine forms for where the distinction actually matters. "Mother" and "Father" both mean "Parent" but contain additional useful information. "Sir" and "ma'am" in a military context, however, just mean "superior officer" and I suspect that the Napanii equivalent would literally just translate to "Superior". It doesn't matter if the person giving you an order is male or female, young or old - if they outrank you, you jump to.
They are a collectivist culture. "We are all Caldari!" "We are all Lai Dai citizens!" "We are all part of Work Team Twelve!". Language is a powerful propaganda tool for reinforcing a sense of community and togetherness. It's also a powerful propaganda tool for isolating and dividing people. "haan" versus "haani" creates a division which makes men and women feel like separate kinds of citizen. That would seem to me to contradict and weaken the "pull together for the State" mindset.
There are practical reasons of morale involved, and I think those would guide the decision-making process more than any idealism about eradicating gender stereotypes.
The fact that the State prefers people to be cisgender heterosexual has no bearing on whether the State would also prefer a gender-neutral pronoun for general use.
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The 2007 thread on 4TH's forum (http://fourthdistrict.net/forums/index.php?topic=1172.0)actually lacks -haan, not haani. However, the use of -haan and -haani only recently became about gender, previously I saw it has how formal the speaker was being.
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There you go then. Whole thing's officially a clusterfuck that's subject to whatever convention happens to be popular at the moment.
In that case how about this: if we're sticking with the "-i = female" convention, then how about adding an "-e = male" convention? Pronounced like the "ay" in "array".
sibling/sister/brother: an/ani/ane
parent/mother/father: asen/aseni/asene
spouse/wife/husband: arun/aruni/arune
Citizen/female citizen/male citizen: haan/haani/haane.
Friend/female friend (informal)/male friend (informal): suuolo/suuli/suule
Apply to the end of a noun that might realistically have a male or female context. For instance, if you want to inquire "are you doing well?", then "ukaki moittet?" is the correct form when addressing a woman, and "ukake moittet?" when addressing a man. you could also use "ukak moittet" if the other's gender is unknown, but this would be considered rude or insulting.
This could of course lead to unsubtle jokes about Intaki men being effeminate.
It would also give the word "Caldari" a female twist to it, evoking the whole "mother earth"/"mother nature" thing.
I'm just spinning off ideas at 2:30am here, they may not all make sense.
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I like it.
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Oh Dark Thirty ideas...
...best ideas.
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Ooh neat stuff Stitcher, I like it too.
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This seems to be a workable idea. You going to update the primer with it, Stitch? We need to start circulating it as THE defacto standard.
So, mixed-gender groups, or cases where the gender is unknown? Apply the neutral gender suffix. I disagree that it should necessarily be an insulting gesture - except in context.
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I only meant that the specific example "ukak" would be insulting, because "uka" means "you" in the sense that you're speaking to somebody, which would mean that using the gender-neutral form means you're not paying attention to anything about the person in front of you.
"haan" is perfectly acceptable, and even maybe a mark of respect. Like, you're saying that you consider the other to be a citizen of such good standing that their gender doesn't enter into it.
I'll do what I can to compile and neaten out a newer version of the primer. If people could give suggestions about what they'd like to see added to it and help bash out stuff like conventions and so forth, that would be much appreciated.
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I suggest making a mailing list and inviting Caldari RPers to join it. We're going to need consensus for a working group if this new Primer is not going to enter into warfare with Hoshisuuvi-kirjuun's one.
Certain of us have discussed this sort of thing before, but we also have to avoid making this into the domain of the communities ivory tower types. Napaani has JUST ABOUT reached the sort of penetration in the RP community where you can chuck 'Saisa' and 'Moitte' and 'Rikaato' around without being too worried you're talking to yourself - let's not take something that works after a fashion and fuck it up.
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sure. I want it to remain recogniseably the same language too. But a large part of the primer is stuff that people drop in to reference but never actually remember, and I feel like we can get away with tidying that up, tweaking the words to conform to the kind of hard-and-fast conventions you would get in a constructed, artificial language.
We're talking small fine-tuning here rather than a gross overhaul.
A mailing list seems like a good idea. How about "Napanii Update Project"?
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Sounds perfect! I'm not saying you're picking this ball up and scribbling your name on it, Stitch, just want to make sure that we don't wind up in a situation where some peeps stick with the old Napaani, citing the update as "Stitcher's Wankery". You know how much this community loves schisms, sometimes. ;)
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There should be a suffix word for:
-(word) : (Literal) One who chokes their ancestors, (figurative) deviant, reprobate, scoundrel, (colloquial) Gallentean
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And a Caldari variant of -desu.
/nodnod
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And a Caldari variant of -desu.
/nodnod
This so much
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There should be a suffix word for:
-(word) : (Literal) One who chokes their ancestors, (figurative) deviant, reprobate, scoundrel, (colloquial) Gallentean
-kuribun/-kuribuni/-kuribune?
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And a Caldari variant of -desu.
/nodnod
-daasuu?
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And a Caldari variant of -desu.
/nodnod
-daasuu?
(http://i.imgur.com/Qjo9ppf.jpg)
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And a Caldari variant of -desu.
/nodnod
-daasuu?
(http://i.imgur.com/Qjo9ppf.jpg)
This is now a thing.
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And a Caldari variant of -desu.
/nodnod
the problem with that is that the word "-desu" is a copula, a linking word that performs much the same function as "is" or "are" in English (as in "this is" "That is", "those are" etc.)
...except that because of the way Japanese syntax works, it comes at the end of the sentence. "This is sushi" is "kore wa sushi desu" for instance.
Napanii, however, works along the same syntactic lines as English, in that the linkage between a subject and a noun or verb comes between them. Also, the way Napanii's stem-root system works would be to have the root "this" be modified by the stem for "is" or "was" or "will be". It'd be like if I said "thisis [a] cat", "thoseare mountains", "hewasnot [a] coward". (the "a" is in square brackets like that because it performs a function that's implied in Napanii by the syntax, rather than being spoken aloud)
As it is, though, although the primer currently has words for "that" and "those" but not for "this" "them" "they" "it" "the" "some" "all" and so on. Indeed, the two words for "that/those" actually mean both "that" and "those" at the same time, and differ in how distant the thing being described is - far away, and REALLY far away.
so.
the [singular] = taa
the [plural] = taaet
it/this/that/they[singular] = Isoy
These/those/them/they[plural] = Isoyet (obeying the convention that -et = plural)
Some - ishik
All - Ishiket
is/are/has = daasuu
putting it together
"The Gallente" = "Taaet Gallentin".
"The Gallente Federation" = "Taa Gallentin Liitovalt (note that the "taa" means that the Federation is being treated as a singular entity)
"The Gallente Federation is prepared for war." = "Taa Gallentin Liitovalt daasuu valkurutui rikkonet."
"All Gallente are decadent... Are the Amarr Empire with us?" = "Ishiket Gallentin daasuu kakkushuu... Taa Amarrin Valteikoku daasuu kanssto hakiit hido?"
"They are... for now." = "Isoy sa... tai naayet."
"And what about the Minmatar? Are they a threat?" = "Samat kui taaet Minmatarin?" Daasuu isoyet kinaari hido?"
"I do not know. Their relationship with the Gallente is souring. We should be cautious." = "Hak tietostsa. Isoyet tsukulainaga ro taaet Gallentin daasuu katkeri. Hakiit pitaa vaaroeka."
This is what it sounds like (http://bit.ly/156vUhp). Apologies for poor mic quality. Also, I suspect this is probably what Verin sounds like when he's speaking.
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Stitcher... Either you have just constructed the most complex carbon nanopun in the history of humour, or you have found a way to make daasuu work in Napaani that is actually founded in linguistics.
Either way, you are awesomesauce. A little scary, sure, but awesomesauce.
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Now you understand the power of the beard.
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As much as I dislike the whole Napaani thing for the same reasons as Davlos (everytime he mentions it, it hilariously gets modded out; guess we're an oversensitive bunch), hearing Stitcher's vocal recording was totally awesome. I could totally picture two Caldari speaking it in my head, for that live action TV Show maybe.
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Stitcher... Either you have just constructed the most complex carbon nanopun in the history of humour, or you have found a way to make daasuu work in Napaani that is actually founded in linguistics.
I'm going to say it's both and there's no way you can prove otherwise.
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And a Caldari variant of -desu.
/nodnod
the problem with that is that the word "-desu" is a copula, a linking word that performs much the same function as "is" or "are" in English (as in "this is" "That is", "those are" etc.)
...except that because of the way Japanese syntax works, it comes at the end of the sentence. "This is sushi" is "kore wa sushi desu" for instance.
Napanii, however, works along the same syntactic lines as English, in that the linkage between a subject and a noun or verb comes between them. Also, the way Napanii's stem-root system works would be to have the root "this" be modified by the stem for "is" or "was" or "will be". It'd be like if I said "thisis [a] cat", "thoseare mountains", "hewasnot [a] coward". (the "a" is in square brackets like that because it performs a function that's implied in Napanii by the syntax, rather than being spoken aloud)
As it is, though, although the primer currently has words for "that" and "those" but not for "this" "them" "they" "it" "the" "some" "all" and so on. Indeed, the two words for "that/those" actually mean both "that" and "those" at the same time, and differ in how distant the thing being described is - far away, and REALLY far away.
so.
the [singular] = taa
the [plural] = taaet
it/this/that/they[singular] = Isoy
These/those/them/they[plural] = Isoyet (obeying the convention that -et = plural)
Some - ishik
All - Ishiket
is/are/has = daasuu
putting it together
"The Gallente" = "Taaet Gallentin".
"The Gallente Federation" = "Taa Gallentin Liitovalt (note that the "taa" means that the Federation is being treated as a singular entity)
"The Gallente Federation is prepared for war." = "Taa Gallentin Liitovalt daasuu valkurutui rikkonet."
"All Gallente are decadent... Are the Amarr Empire with us?" = "Ishiket Gallentin daasuu kakkushuu... Taa Amarrin Valteikoku daasuu kanssto hakiit hido?"
"They are... for now." = "Isoy sa... tai naayet."
"And what about the Minmatar? Are they a threat?" = "Samat kui taaet Minmatarin?" Daasuu isoyet kinaari hido?"
"I do not know. Their relationship with the Gallente is souring. We should be cautious." = "Hak tietostsa. Isoyet tsukulainaga ro taaet Gallentin daasuu katkeri. Hakiit pitaa vaaroeka."
This is what it sounds like (http://bit.ly/156vUhp). Apologies for poor mic quality. Also, I suspect this is probably what Verin sounds like when he's speaking.
Heh, lol, I was being mostly facetious, but that's funny that you took it so seriously.
Although in your case you are mostly equating desu/daasuu with is/be. Well it's up to you for daasuu, but for desu, it is incorrect, I believe. It's a copula, not a verb. Though considering that I do not speak Japanese at all, I may well be wrong.
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I decided to pick it up the joke, run with it, and convert it into something that would work within the existing framework of Napanii.
I think I succeeded.
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As much as I dislike the whole Napaani thing for the same reasons as Davlos (everytime he mentions it, it hilariously gets modded out; guess we're an oversensitive bunch), hearing Stitcher's vocal recording was totally awesome. I could totally picture two Caldari speaking it in my head, for that live action TV Show maybe.
Have you considered that the popularity of Napaani only increases each time you tell us how much you dislike it?
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Huh? I don't think I've mentioned anywhere publicly my dislike for it.
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On the topic at hand, I've personally always wondered if the Caldari maintain some form of suffix to denote corporate affiliation as part of social protocol with people you've just met.
"Hello citizen, I am Gesakaarin-Kaalakiota"
"Good to meet you, Gesakaarin-haan/i I am Hakatain-Ishukone"
Of course if they don't provide their corporate affiliation as part of their initial greeting then they must be nothing more than a filthy foreign devil.
I just wonder if providing your associations, positions etc. when meeting people in the State is part of the social protocols Caldari use to evaluate how they should behave and speak with each other. Although it might also vary depending on the social situation, and seen more as being part of formal protocols, business meetings and the like.
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"-haan" fills the same kind of role as "Mister" or "Sir" or "Lieutenant" or "Doctor" does. it's not a component of the name, it's an honorific and denotes rank and social position.
Caldari might well include their megacorporate affiliation when introducing themselves, yes, but they wouldn't do it that way because that'd be like if I was filling in an application form and wrote "Wales" in the section marked "title".
It'd go under the equivalent of "nationality". and in any case would quite likely be unnecessary - I daresay you could usually tell the difference between an Ishukone citizen from Lonetrek and a Lai Dai citizen from the Forge just by their accents, just like how if you meet an Australian you don't usually need to ask them which country they're from.
if they introduce themselves as "Bruce" and they're wearing a kangaroo-skin hat with corks, then they're probable British and taking the piss.
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Not to necro the crap out of this, but if there actually is a mailing list about the Napanii update, I would love to be on it.
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To necro the crap out of this, Stitcher and I are working on a Napanii expansion.
I don't want to to trample upon any soft PF that has already been developed. I'd love for all those who were involved in Napanii 1.0 and 1.5 to be involved with 2.0. I have huge respect for all the thought and history that went into what already exists, and, as a relative newcomer, the last thing I want to do is to dishonor the old spirit of Napanii with my own new-fangled ideas.