Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Casiella on 11 May 2010, 10:00
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They're back (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=759).
Discuss...
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I think Seraphim Risen/Dibblebill phrased it best.
Seraphim Risen > ((hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooly FUCK <3))
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:s "checks date" hm...not april 1st..."checks outside environment" hm, world does not seem to have ended..."phones his lawyer" hm, hell have not frozen over....
Want more details before doing any cartwheels of joy but seems promising. Of course always the chance that it will crash and burn.
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Interesting use of a wormhole in the picture for this announcement. Too bad I'll probably be unsubbed by the time anything happens with it.
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I suspect a substantial connection to the Sleepers, particularly given the recent discussion on interactive storytelling.
Maybe they'll start to come back to our side of the WHs?
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I suspect a substantial connection to the Sleepers, particularly given the recent discussion on interactive storytelling.
Maybe they'll start to come back to our side of the WHs?
Oops. (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1316517&page=1#6)
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I suspect a substantial connection to the Sleepers, particularly given the recent discussion on interactive storytelling.
Maybe they'll start to come back to our side of the WHs?
Streaming out of wormholes at the trade and missionhubs, attempting to kill anything and everything they encounter....
Yes, yes, i know, but a guy can dream, can he not?
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wtb Sleeper camps in Jita.
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Very pleased about this.
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So, it's evidently not the Sleepers, or at least not in the way I was thinking. Maybe tied to the Ducia Foundry (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3870&tid=2) stuff?
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It's going to imbalance everything, goons and bob will insta camp any events and, in effect, will drive away any and all highsec dwellers - which will lead to a rapid decline in subscription and in turn to the closing down of EVE. /eve is dying
Fun times ahead :)
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Meh
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Laerise raises a valid point about BoB & Goons interfering, which also goes for all other major powers.
Still, that's the way of nature.
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We're issuing a press joint press release w/ SYNE regarding the Ducia Foundry investigation. We'll post the Inner Circle documents then.
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They said something about how the problems of the past wouldn't be repeated, didn't they?
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Joy. Now all those of us who weren't around for the AURORA arcs can go through the experience of the oldbies and accrue our own bitterness at CCP for events.
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Yay!
This might actually cause me to log in again.
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You know, I had a feeling Soter couldn't be that special. :P
Looking forward to seeing what they have planned.
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Me when I was just hearing the first bits (http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3292/1217702462198.gif)
My immediate impression (http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/8093/1256543619107.jpg)
My immediate impression after my first impression (http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1863/1236676025927.png)
Me during and after the event (http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6176/1213418437948.jpg)
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Awesome news.
Time to dust off the signed Pax and fire up the Navpoc.
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You know, I had a feeling Soter couldn't be that special. :P
Looking forward to seeing what they have planned.
Unfortunately he is...he got in DED docs :x
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They said something about how the problems of the past wouldn't be repeated, didn't they?
Yes, and I say every day I'm going to drive to one of my customer's houses and murder them in their sleep.
However it is very unlikely that I will actually accomplish what I've said.
Now let's go about this another way: I am generally unimpressed. I mean sure it's cool and all. Ish.
It was in highsec in Ashab, right? So if anyone wanted to be on the side of Sansha's Nation and get in there and raise a fuss: Too fucking bad. No CCP still doesn't love you.
CCP's facilitations of "community outreach" are... less than stellar. I am not really ready to believe their event planners for their live events are really going to kick out anything that is truly "fair" for all parties involved.
So meh I say.
Meh.
Someone else said it best:
Joy. Now all those of us who weren't around for the AURORA arcs can go through the experience of the oldbies and accrue our own bitterness at CCP for events.
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Yeah, I do hope they make some events so a person can choose either side to fight with/against.
It would just suck if they just deleted sansha from EVE itself and the little Sansha fanboize couldn't do a thing about it. :(
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I don't think they'd seriously consider deleting a faction entirely, myself.
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It isn't really just about Sansha. It's about the fact that CCP very rarely offers anyone outside of the main empires time to join in the fun.
Faction Warfare? "All the factions get to fight" Well, no. Not really, only 4 of the eight or nine or so factions actually get to fight.
Events: Forget you, pirate corps/alliances that are aligned with various pirate factions, you don't get to help your entities along.
The thing about EVE is that it's a perfect PvP venue. Everything is PvP, even the PvE (you're competing for resources and markets) and the mining. So why would you not use these events as a good reason for highsec empire players to get some solid PvP going with people?
It would make the events more interesting, because let's face it even hundreds of NPC ships that are not smart are not overly difficult to combat, it's just a longer fight. Throw some PCs into it trying to stop you from fighting off their favored faction? Now you've got something going.
Boo on the event team.
Boo.
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They have run essentially one event, and I have read that it hasn't actually concluded yet.
So have you provided feedback to the team? I think that the most productive and positive thing to do is point out that some players would like to participate in another method, rather than immediately criticize them for not getting it "perfect" right out of the door.
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Sure. Point me in a direction. Would be happy to offer constructive criticism.
It's also not about getting it "perfect".
However when attempting to engage the player base as a whole, it does not accomplish that when you are alienating large chunks of said player base.
This is an issue AURORA had. Not their biggest, as hindsight obviously shows, but still a major issue they had.
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Well, there's a thread linked in the OP, and the devs have responded to several questions and such (including mine).
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There is also the scale issue. There isn't really any way for them to interact with everyone. Having events, at least to start with, in populous areas is probably how they can reach the most people.
How would you go about making it so that players could PvP at such events?
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Events do not need to be in static locations. Starting in high security to "amass forces" due to an anamoly opening in X system and then bringing the forces with you (with harrassment along the way from NPCs, and upon entering low security harrassment from both NPCs and PCs trying to stop the convoy) until you reach the final destination of where the event is taking place where a large pitched battle.
Just as an "off-the-top-of-my-head" method.
Edit: This would also infuse mild RP into the non-RP players, as well as gather a greater number of people as you move through systems, thusly increasing the scale, mind you.
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Well, that is kinda the stuff that Aurora used to do. And it is quite possible they might go a similar route. With the actors (and obviously NPCs) being flagged as attackable, though, what often happened in practice is they all got wiped by whoever was nearby. There were exceptions, though.
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Well the slick resolution to that (and mind you they could have had the Sansha faction doing the same thing and working to gather assistance from capsuleers with promises of fame, fortune, and power and whatnot, but starting in nullsec and moving towards lowsec, with the Slave (insert number here) triggering the wormhole event from the anamoly in question upon its arrival) would be to have the attackable/not attackable or damageable/not damageable flag be something a console command could toggle on and off, and simply toggle it the other way upon the opening of the wormhole and the beginning of the event anew.
Put the focus on the players not the spawned entities.
And further more put the focus on dividing the players and not on uniting the players.
I find that making people choose sides would also add a burst to the dynamism of the roleplay and alliance strategies cluster wide (from both an RP and non-RP standpoint on this aspect).
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I agree that factions would be nice. It is early days, yet, though.
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Personally, I am not one that believes in "starting off small" with something of this nature.
The playerbase is generally disillusioned about events based on the wake of AURORA and the bits and pieces of nonsense that we all heard about dealing with what it was doing wrong.
Why start off small and work your way back up?
Why not start it off with a massive, earth-shattering explosion to say "Forget what your cynicism about AURORA tells you. Now it will be different! WELCOME TO EVE!!"?
Otherwise those who have a bitter taste in their mouth from the ineffectiveness of AURORA will see this and go "Oh great, more of the same."
Which I somehow suspect was not the goal.
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Possibly they have limited resources in terms of people to commit to this.
Edit: To clarify, not that I think this was a perfect event, by any means. Given the limited information we have, it seems like they could have done better, and gotten more player involvement. But the info we have is limited, so I'm thinking that giving them a chance to get a couple of events under their belt isn't a bad idea.
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Possibly.
Though; given the proper tools, the event would only require 1 personnel per actor after the initial planning and setup.
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Hindsight is 20/20, but what seems to be the issue here is that instead of treating the pirate factions as another faction, they've been reduced to a role of a antagonist against the players. So instead of 'fight with concord or help the sansha invasion', the players are left with 'fight the ebil sansha'.
And to be honest this all fits in with the mechanics of the game, except for the fact that you can do missions for these pirate entities. It's not like, with standings, the belt spawns won't suddenly appear green to you once you've gotten high enough in standings and stop attacking; they will always attack.
What might have been interesting is if the sansha had approached some of the 0.0 entities out in their space, like CONCORD had done with one of the players, and said, "hey look we're gonna go attack the empires, you might keeping a lookout at our staging base just outside the wormhole until we come back?". Then the invasion gets repelled and the ded says, "Go in there and gettem!" and we have some player conflict and drawn sides.
I'm just thinking outside of the box here, but that would be helluva lot more encouraging for battles and interactive events overall....
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I really hope that the whole 'good and evil' thing isn't where CCP is heading. Really hoping.
I know that at least part of the people behind the storyline don't seem to be capable of that sort of complex storytelling in a simple written format, much less a dynamic format. Not naming any names. :s
I'm hopeful that that is only part of the team responsible for this stuff, though.
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My cynicism and past experiences both in this game and others (which had both entirely superior complex writers and entirely inferior) do not allow me such hope.
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This is an interesting development. I think it's somewhat safe to assume that many of the current dev now team are ex-ISD types that were involved in the old events back in the day. This means that they'll have a pretty firm grasp on what works and what doesn't. We can also hope that the available tools have been improved a little.
You can't please everyone, and on a single server, it's next to impossible to create events that will touch everyone. This stuff is always going to be for a minority, but with the side effect that it has ramifications beyond the scope of the actual event itself. You always know that getting involved is a possibility, and that is in itself an enticing prospect, even if you never actually do get involved in an event personally.
If you have any belief in the tenet of 'show, don't tell' in storytelling, then in gaming that applies tenfold. It's all very well for people to write chronicles and news articles, but these things will always pale next to the prospect of seeing, doing and influencing yourself. That is something that has been denied Eve players for a long time now. We missed out on a lot of good stuff. Eve was a poorer place without its events team and its dedicated volunteers. It was much less interesting. Sure, some of the events were shit. Some were ill-conceived from the outset. Some were purely self-serving enterprises to make rich people richer. There was corruption. There was also massive overreaction to the corruption. There was wilful ignorance. There was the more usual ignorance that you can expect from any large group of idiots people on the Internet too. Toys were thrown out of prams. I don't blame CCP for cutting their losses in the face of the disgusting rivers of tears, but at the same time, they were schooled by a small group of vocal trolls and the rest of us suffered for it.
Yes, Eve is PvP. That is its strength. It separates it from the sheep grazing on endless WoW pastures ad nauseam. Yet, the players still seem to exist in their own bubble, and interactions with the world itself, where they do occur, are abstracted to the point of being inconsequential. Actual PvE is as meaningless as it is possible to be beyond creating money for players. It mostly stretches credibility to somewhere far beyond breaking point. There's quite the disconnect between the supposed power of player groups and their actual ability to change anything at all in the world. I would think that the grail for Eve would be a future game world that changes dynamically according to what is taking place within it, and live events offer the tiniest taste of that possibility. Bring it.
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To add to what Wanoah said (and I generally agree with it): just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.
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Didn't someone say this stuff was happening in Stain too? Where exactly should they be doing these events if they want to open them up to Sansha supporters? Because I think unless they hit every single region, it's going to be impossible to make sure everyone has a chance. I think you need to accept that the events are going to be limited in scope just because they only have a certain number of people to run things.
Besides, the real value is not just in the people who get to participate directly -- it's all the people they talk to and say "Man, I was in this cool event where X and Y happened, check it out!" From a purely business perspective, anyway, which is one of the big factors in whether CCP decides these are worth continuing to pursue I'm guessing.
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Didn't someone say this stuff was happening in Stain too
Got a link for that? The only reference to that I found throughout everything was one of the DED Dossiers that were leaked mentioned an increase in comms traffic in the Gallente Quarter of Stain.
There was nothing in any of the information I've found of any actual events happening there.
To add to what Wanoah said (and I generally agree with it): just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean it shouldn't happen
You're making a fallacy of extension here. You're implying that since I denounce poor planning and ineffective outreach that I am stating that the goal is perfection.
This is patently not true.
I will even go one further, the scripts that I saw were fucking terrible.
To wit:
[17:21:14 ] Silonneri Balginia > What the hell are these brainless bastards doing here?
[17:21:55 ] Silonneri Balginia > I think they're coming in through that wormhole
[17:22:06 ] Reimina Muar > Confirm, Caldari Navy, does the wormhole exhibit two-way connectivity?
[17:22:14 ] Silonneri Balginia > For the glory of the Republic!
[17:22:47 ] Slave 32152 > Nation will not tolerate resistance.
[17:23:28 ] Silonneri Balginia > Watch out for more reinforcements. I don't think this is the last of them
[17:23:40 ] Silonneri Balginia > By the Elders - that's a lot of Nightmares
[17:24:03 ] Reimina Muar > Capsuleers; Weapons free, weapons free, engage! Planet 4 is under attack by Sansha forces!
[17:24:37 ] Silonneri Balginia > I can't take them on my own here, mates. I need my fellow Republic pilots to push them back!
[17:25:24 ] Silonneri Balginia > We have to protect this system
[17:26:03 ] Silonneri Balginia > I'm sending probes through that wormhole. Something's different here...
[17:26:47 ] Reimina Muar > Any confirmed Sansha kills will be rewarded per the bounty system, fully endorsed by CONCORD.
[17:27:18 ] Silonneri Balginia > These brainless bastards are giving us quite the fight
[17:27:40 ] Slave 32152 > Capsuleers are weak. Heirs ot a mistake. We are the correction.
First of all, despite the glaring bastardization of english which we can attest to a typo, except unlike most typos I can't for the life of me figure out what it's supposed to say. The script is... ugh.
Moving on to this being the best they can come up with in the forum??
It is already too late.
All that remains now is for you to accept this simple fact.
"It is already cliche. All that remains now is for this to be a big fucking joke."
Thankfully I saw one breath of fresh air and well done bit from CCP as Koja Tsutariba. That was well written.
What I'm saying is not that it isn't perfect. Perfection is inaccessible. What I'm saying is this is like Uwe Boll doing Phantom of the Opera.
We have an event that wasn't well designed for community outreach from an entity that is notoriously bad at it. Which is fine from a business sense. They're making their game the way they want it. What the community wants isn't relevant unless they're going to stop giving them money. As they have not in countless perceived nerfs, they can pretty much continue on course.
However when you're making community events this is unacceptable. If you're trying to engage the community, then engage the fucking community. If you want people to feel like they're important and have an impact on the story, make a complex story and bloody well include large chunks of the player base.
This is the typical "we're going to spawn lots of mobs for getting slaughtered with nothing but a cliche'd invasion story that will expand out.... maybe unless we just get bored and drop off to another story while leaving these ends loose" crap that AURORA always did.
Now that it is inhouse, you would think they would have more leeway.
There's quite the disconnect between the supposed power of player groups and their actual ability to change anything at all in the world. I would think that the grail for Eve would be a future game world that changes dynamically according to what is taking place within it
Then in order to do this, knowing full well that this is what people want, why would you A. Focus it on Empire players only, whom I would suggest are less ambitious or have ambitions different from causing major change in the world, and B. Only allow one side to have any sort of impact?
That is not dynamic. That's putting a story on a rail and letting the players jump in and pretend they have any impact on the inevitable outcome that has already been preplanned.
In the short term? Sure, people will think it's cool.
In the long term? People will see it for the hollow, shattered promise it is, and have less and less concern about whether or not they get to be involved.
Sound familiar? Perhaps like some other entity that used to do this?
Hmmm...
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A recent post in the same thread from the devs indicated they'd heard the feedback and were including it future planning. Given it's been two days since they announced anything publicly, I'm comfortable with that.
If it's still like that at the end of the summer, then I'll assume it's gone the way of FW and feel sad. Until then, or until events warrant otherwise, I will continue to maintain my optimism.
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Ahh... goddamnit, there was a whole lot of useful stuff in that post despite my response to it. You could've just clipped it. :/
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So copy and paste the non-responsive stuff into a new post! :)
I do have to note that the events have already spurred a lot of additional RP, so that at least is a good sign in and of itself. We don't have to accept mediocrity, I agree, but we can choose how to respond. I choose to provide positive feedback and constructive criticism and do my bit to help guide CCP toward a more useful program.
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Ahh... goddamnit, there was a whole lot of useful stuff in that post despite my response to it. You could've just clipped it. :/
That stuff turns into editing someone else's post to reflect what you (or I, in this case) believe too easily. Think it is better to give people the opportunity to repost in lines with the rules in their own way.
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I would just like to stress that negative feedback and constructive criticism are not mutually exclusive.
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In my experience, constructive criticism can be accepted as such far more readily when it's sweetened with some credit where it is due as well as highlighting the negatives.
Things that are useless, from my POV:
"This is great!"
"This is shit! DIAF! Also, your momma."
"I hated this / enjoyed this."
"This is awesome and everyone who disagrees is an idiot."
OK, so unmodified praise is nice, admittedly, but beyond stroking your ego a little (and fuck, it so needs it a lot of the time!) it doesn't help you improve things one iota. 99% of all opinion on the Internet falls into the utterly useless category one way or another; whether it's unmitigated fanboyism or fangirlism; or the usual mouth-foaming rabid hatred and ignorance that accompanies anything published anywhere publicly where comments are allowed.
People seem to think that they have this colossal right to not only have opinions, but express them too. Something about democracy and freedom of speech. Go figure. This mostly seems to equate to the notion that you have the inalienable right to be a colossal cunt, as evidenced by the most cursory of glances at youTube comments.
In my ideal world, though, people would offer up criticism and actually say why they think things have worked or haven't worked. They won't reach straight for the rhetoric and the hyperbole. Instead they will say things like:
"I enjoyed this because you did x really well. Y wasn't a bad idea, but was less effective because <insert reasoning>."
"I really didn't like this at all because <insert reasoning>. Still, z was quite effective when you did <something>."
Everyone has opinions, but qualified opinions are gold.
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I would suggest that throughout this thread I have not only qualified my opinions but also offered suggestions. Emotive language does not equate to rage, contrary to what people here seem to think.
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I would suggest that throughout this thread I have not only qualified my opinions but also offered suggestions. Emotive language does not equate to rage, contrary to what people here seem to think.
Oh, just in case it isn't clear, I wasn't directly responding to what you were saying in my earlier post. I was just talking more generally about what I think re criticism. I just have this need to outline my utopian vision of a world where people aren't idiots every so often. :)
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What I find amusing about all this is that Lillith is practically ostracized for having a critical viewpoint about the manner in which the events are run, based on a view point that a) we don't have any voice on how these are run anyway, so just run with it and b) we don't want to hurt the developer's feelings with 'negative' commentary that makes them stop it altogether. Maybe they appreciate alittle critical thought, eh?
Whether you think it needs improving or not is subjective, and I'm sure most of you are content with things as it is. I respect that, but I also respect constructive criticism and an opportunity for improvement, which hopefully they might consider if they watch these boards. If not, it's just blowing steam anyway.
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I wasn't trying to ostracize Lillith, I was just pointing out the practical problems with what she was complaining about.
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The event in Intaki (which I missed by an hour dammit!) brought more than 100 pilots to the system and forced some meaningful interaction between the Intaki Prosperity Initiative and several Pro-Fed corps.
Since our war with Moira. ended a few months ago, we had been at a stalemate in terms of RP. We remained hostile because of what had happened, but there was very little to go on. The Sansha attack has pushed us into the area of "unlikely allies." I will grant that this is a bit cliche, but most storytelling relies on some archetype and I'm excited to play this one out.
After reviewing transcripts and logs, I agree that there is room for improvement. However, I cannot condemn the effort that has been put into these events thus far. Considering the relatively small portion of role players in the overall player population, I think CCP is putting forth all of the resources they feel they can justify.
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Just an update on this, I think the live events have significantly improved and really included the player base alot more, and most of the criticisms I had have about them are gone. I think I can safely say I haven't had this much fun in EVE in years...literally. :lol:
My question at this point is; Is this event arc simply a grandios introduction for Tyrannis or will a team be committed to this kind of player involvement in the future? I just have to say I hope the latter is true, and I hope it shows that this kind of venture, investing in the entertainment of your player base, can be a profitable excursion. I know it'll keep me around.
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I really hope we get a "closure" report of some kind, it has been awfully difficult to keep track of all the details. I just read that Sutola Endoma was a Sansha agent and now Harah Joele has designated several officers to maintain contact.
Nice development, but would be nice if CONCORD and the governments file official reports afterwards.
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Just an update on this, I think the live events have significantly improved and really included the player base alot more, and most of the criticisms I had have about them are gone. I think I can safely say I haven't had this much fun in EVE in years...literally. :lol:
Aha! See? See? :P
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See what? :eek:
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My question at this point is; Is this event arc simply a grandios introduction for Tyrannis or will a team be committed to this kind of player involvement in the future? I just have to say I hope the latter is true, and I hope it shows that this kind of venture, investing in the entertainment of your player base, can be a profitable excursion. I know it'll keep me around.
If it's an introduction to Tyrannis, I hope it doesn't come out that the "Sansha Invasion" was something arranged by CONCORD in order to force the Empires to allow capsuleers to develop planets.*
*Warning: pure OOC speculation. Plz do not eat mai brain, Meester Kuvakei.
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I don't think it is an introduction to tyrannis per-se, but just a build-up towards an event that will happen during the extended downtime. At least thats how i see it.
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My question at this point is; Is this event arc simply a grandios introduction for Tyrannis or will a team be committed to this kind of player involvement in the future? I just have to say I hope the latter is true, and I hope it shows that this kind of venture, investing in the entertainment of your player base, can be a profitable excursion. I know it'll keep me around.
If it's an introduction to Tyrannis, I hope it doesn't come out that the "Sansha Invasion" was something arranged by CONCORD in order to force the Empires to allow capsuleers to develop planets.*
*Warning: pure OOC speculation. Plz do not eat mai brain, Meester Kuvakei.
I raged a little.
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I don't think it is an introduction to tyrannis per-se, but just a build-up towards an event that will happen during the extended downtime. At least thats how i see it.
I've been thinking about this for a bit myself. If they don't tie this into planetary management in some way, I will be disappointed.
Not too much, though, as the storyline is leading up to my IC plans for PI and such.
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Having events during downtime would be really silly....that goes against everything the live events are supposed to represent. :P