Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => Moderation Discussion => Topic started by: Lasairiona on 07 Apr 2013, 13:46
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Personally, I don't understand why it was removed? Wasn't that the premise of the thread? To say what you would do with certain characters? No one was even named specifically.
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Yes, saying what you would do with someone's character is the premise - the problem is when you do that in a way that violates the rules. In particular, the implication of the post was very clearly that the groups mentioned weren't RPing 'right' because they fraternize with 'enemy' characters.
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I didn't get that. Maybe I read it wrong. I just thought it was saying that you would have the person RP straight to the point of what the character stood for, if you get what I mean?
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Norrin's issue is that a lot of characters seem to say one thing and do another, in the sense that if they claim to stand for X and oppose Y but still party/positively interact with those who support Y the point of opposing Y seems lost entirely, and he would have then change this.
Basically, he said (in a round-about way) that they were doing it wrong, and that is frowned on on these boards.
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I think what people miss is that there's "you're doing it wrong" and then there's "no really, you're fucking doing it wrong"
Norrins post is in the latter category, and I think that's possibly worth discussing. It's something that always confused me about a lot of RPers (and yes I think I've been quilty of it a little), but while sure we can all be civil why do we have to be friends?
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I kinda agree with Ember. Perhaps the original post of the thread could be made clearer?
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Now, what's the difference between "you're doing it wrong" and "no really, you're fucking doing it wrong"? The latter is okay, because the words "no really" and "fucking" have been added?
There is nothing stopping someone from claiming to not do x and doing x and even less is stopping someone from claiming to do x and doing y. People even can do x and y. Actually, it's quite realistic that people do all that. It's realistic that people don't behave rationally all the time and that their lists of preferences isn't rationally ordered.
I think, especially given how Norrin worded his post, by implying that everyone "aligned with some faction / ideology" does not "behave accordingly" is, in fact quite a loud 'doinitrong' and a quite one-dimensional one and unwarranted at that. I agree with Silver there.
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I can't agree with Ember.
The fact is that the New Eden capsuleers are, while still human, a bit more enlightened. Blind hate and fury simply because someone's DNA is different or because someone has stuff in their head would, to me, be illogical. Why would a near immortal group harbor petty hatred simply because the mortals of their faction attempt to sow it? One can be an enemy (Gallente and Caldari), but still be civil, friendly, and respectful of each other (as shown in Khross and Raithe, or even Anslo and Pieter...even though the former shows it more intelligently than the later).
Regardless, Norrin's post did seem as a subtle YDIW by passively suggesting that people who say they're anti-Sansha should treat ALL Sansha as filth without even knowing their logic behind the choice. They base the judgement on association as opposed to action. Or that ALL Amarr should treat all Minmatar like animals. Essentially, it's like saying Diana Kim's 'doin' it right' by blindly hating all Gallente. While it's funny, not EVERYONE has to do it. It'd make the game and the RP associated with it far, far less interesting.
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Why would a near immortal group harbor petty hatred simply because the mortals of their faction attempt to sow it?
Cultural indoctrination.
They base the judgement on association as opposed to action.
Choosing to associate yourself with people that do atrocities on daily basis is an action.
Or that ALL Amarr should treat all Minmatar like animals.
Cultural indoctrination again.
Norrins' post is one of the most common peeves within the RP community which revolves around the issues of RP consistency and world building.
It is pretty much about eating a cake and keeping it.
Is the character just a tool for the player to have lols with or someone that lives by the rules of New Eden and making it act in ways that would be unwanted by the player himself?
For me, Norrins post was not just about 'urdoinitrong' it is about a deeper issue within the community that the player was fed up with to the extent that he was putting his capability to post on these forums on the line.
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Okay, I was just looking for clarification. No need for everyone to get their panties in a twist. ;)
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Why would a near immortal group harbor petty hatred simply because the mortals of their faction attempt to sow it?
Cultural indoctrination.
They base the judgement on association as opposed to action.
Choosing to associate yourself with people that do atrocities on daily basis is an action.
Or that ALL Amarr should treat all Minmatar like animals.
Cultural indoctrination again.
Norrins' post is one of the most common peeves within the RP community which revolves around the issues of RP consistency and world building.
It is pretty much about eating a cake and keeping it.
Is the character just a tool for the player to have lols with or someone that lives by the rules of New Eden and making it act in ways that would be unwanted by the player himself?
For me, Norrins post was not just about 'urdoinitrong' it is about a deeper issue within the community that the player was fed up with to the extent that he was putting his capability to post on these forums on the line.
So everyone should treat their IC 'enemies' with contempt and not talk to them unless it's insulting? That doesn't world build or further stories. In my opinion, it'd get old, tiring, and detrimental. Not a very pleasant SOP for a community, RP or any. :S Just my opinion though.
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I think, especially given how Norrin worded his post, by implying that everyone "aligned with some faction / ideology" does not "behave accordingly" is, in fact quite a loud 'doinitrong' and a quite one-dimensional one and unwarranted at that. I agree with Silver there.
It is loud, and I think it is warranted. For instance (Leo had a quote about this and I wish I could find it, but...) I'm a Matari. I'm very anti-slavery. My best friend is an Angel Cartel pirate, yesterday I went to a party hosted by PIE, but I'm still dead set against slavery.
NOTE: The above example is in no way directed at anyone. It's just what I remember from what Leo said. His version was much funnier btw.
What I'm getting at with the example though is that said character doesn't make much sense. As lallara said its a case of people wanting to eat their cake and keep it too.
One can be an enemy (Gallente and Caldari), but still be civil, friendly, and respectful of each other (as shown in Khross and Raithe, or even Anslo and Pieter...even though the former shows it more intelligently than the later).
Sure they can be and hell I'm all for that, but I dont see them becoming bffs4lyfe which seems to happen more often than not.
Regardless, Norrin's post did seem as a subtle YDIW by passively suggesting that people who say they're anti-Sansha should treat ALL Sansha as filth without even knowing their logic behind the choice.
Well yeah why not? If I had a character that was anti-Sansha I would treat all of them with at least a little contempt. Sure in public channels like the Summit I would be civil and it would be toned down, but in private or in space let it all hang out and give those damn toasters what for! ;)
They base the judgement on association as opposed to action
Like lallara said association is an action.
Essentially, it's like saying Diana Kim's 'doin' it right' by blindly hating all Gallente.
Honestly, she is. She made her character that way and is sticking to her guns even when it's not the popular thing to do. If that's not right I don't know what is.
Now, what's the difference between "you're doing it wrong" and "no really, you're fucking doing it wrong"? The latter is okay, because the words "no really" and "fucking" have been added?
Ya damn right. The words "no really" and "fucking" make everything okay. :P
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I think this thread is being a bit derailed, and although a discussion on the topic is warranted this probably isn't the place.
Getting a bit back on topic, I think the reason it was treated as a case of 'urdoinitwrong' by the mods is that - unlike objectively discussing the trope in question - the post could be interpreted as saying that he would take control of the characters explicitely to 'fix' what he saw them as doing wrong given their role. That it had to do with characters associating with 'enemies' is irrelevant - if the post had said "I would take control of the hardest-liners of X faction and make them less anal and more social", I am sure it would still have been modded.
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I think this thread is being a bit derailed, and although a discussion on the topic is warranted this probably isn't the place.
Yeah it kinda is given the OP and it probably isn't since this is the mod discussion section, but threads evlolve discussions happen so why not have it?
Also: inb4 thread has "run its course" :bear:
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There is "I might try XYZ with this character if I had the opportunity to pull their strings", and there is "I would do ABC because their player is doing it wrong".
Norrin's post very clearly fell under the latter category, and even without naming names, was very clearly directed at several specific individuals; it's important to note that for several of those people, his accusations don't actually hold water. Which would be immediately apparent if interactions outside of the Summit or similar channels were taken into account.
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I think, especially given how Norrin worded his post, by implying that everyone "aligned with some faction / ideology" does not "behave accordingly" is, in fact quite a loud 'doinitrong' and a quite one-dimensional one and unwarranted at that. I agree with Silver there.
It is loud, and I think it is warranted. For instance (Leo had a quote about this and I wish I could find it, but...) I'm a Matari. I'm very anti-slavery. My best friend is an Angel Cartel pirate, yesterday I went to a party hosted by PIE, but I'm still dead set against slavery.
NOTE: The above example is in no way directed at anyone. It's just what I remember from what Leo said. His version was much funnier btw.
What I'm getting at with the example though is that said character doesn't make much sense. As lallara said its a case of people wanting to eat their cake and keep it too.
Now, why can't someone portray a character that makes no sense? vOv Actually, I'd venture the claim that most people IRL don't always make sense. The guy who is really okay with homosexuality - really, he is! - but who wouldn't touch a gay with an 20 inch pole? Often seen, not rational, but very realistic.
A character concept doesn't have to conform to logics and make rational sense, because people can be and oftentimes are illogical and irrational beings. vOv
If you have a problem with that, it's not solved by trying to dictate to people that they have to portray their chars as making sense logically and rationally, nor by telling them that they are 'doinitrong' if they don't.
Tl;Dr: It makes sense to portray characters that don't always make sense.
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There would be plenty to discuss with perceived flaws in the RP community, things that irk people and finding will to change things, if possible.
But these forums are not the place for it.
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Because then it just turns into a big point and laugh fest while discrediting someone's RP for how it's wrong or flawed or something.
Sure there's some situations (i.e. god modding) where saying something can't be avoided, but to try to say something along the lines of "State loyal characters should NOT be friends with ANY Gallente" is the way to induce stagnation into player drive content and emerging lore and stories and some potentially really interesting arcs.
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I would probably phrase it as 'Those Caldari that has been raised in the school system and the traditional culture of the State will probably find it hard to find any common ground with anyone of a similar background that has been raised within the Federation.'
I fail to see how it would cause stagnation.
I would perceive clear lines drawn in the sand as something that you could gather behind and use it as something to snowball into critical mass for wardecs on those that you would perceive as your ideological opposition.
Which would spur internal RP of the groups in question and external conflict of the groups on public venues like IGS which would most likely lead to more activity in space.
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This thread isn't really here for discussion of whether you think Norrin was right or not. Ultimately that isn't actually relevant to his being moderated - and I have with some frequency moderated people who I thought were right.
This is a thread about why Norrin's post broke the rules. Which it did with it's passive-aggressive YDIW content.
I think there is some confusion here about the difference between what can be discussed, and how things can be discussed. Norrin's post was moderated because of the how rather than the what.
To quote a couple of bits from the FAQ:
It is not a place for telling other people they are 'doing it wrong".
Q: But they ARE wrong! On the internet!
A: Disagreeing with you doesn't make them wrong. Sometimes people do make errors of fact, but its possible to point that out without asshattery. For example, if Joe Bloggs says that Fedos are kept by the Amarr to hunt down escaped slaves, you might say: "I got a different impression from here." and link to the EVO Chron. Also, remember how big the EVE Cluster is. Someone has a different approach to something that the PF is silent on? Think about the difference between Fiji and Siberia, and how many cultures there are on this one planet. Now multiply that by every planet in every system in every constellation in every ... you get the picture.
Q: So you want us to act all lovey-dovey?
A: Yes. Deal with it.
Q: Doesn't being polite to people I disagree with make me a hypocrite?
A: No. It makes you a grown-up.
Q: What about free and frank debate?
A: Strange as it may seem, given some of the forums on the internet, but it is possible to have an honest exchange of views without being rude, hostile, offensive, aggressive or bullying. That kind of behaviour destroys communities, virtual and otherwise, and Will Not Be Tolerated.
Q: But I totally know more about EVE and RP than that idiot who just posted!
A: Good for you. Now demonstrate that you also know more about being a grown-up. Your personal experience in EVE and outside it can inform your opinion and provide you with examples for your position, but it doesn't magically make your opinion worth more than someone else's. There are veteran EVE players, life-long table-top gamers, expert LARPers, published authors and many others in the EVE RP community. We all bring something different to the table: so share what you bring rather than trying to use it to knock everyone else's plate to the floor.
Q: How can I tell if my post is out of line or not?
A: It's a safe bet that if you finish typing and think to yourself: "Hah! I showed HIM!" you should probably not post. Other danger signs: personal attacks on the player, including the player's style of RP (i.e. "of course you think that, you RP an Amarr"), insinuations that anyone who disagrees with you is a moron.
Q: So I can't disagree with anyone's RP?
A: Sure you can disagree. Just do it politely, I'll even venture to say nicely, and remember that they have as much right to their opinion as you have to yours. For example: Player A writes: "I see the Intaki as space hippies." Player B answers: "Of course they aren't space hippies, there are no hippies in Eve." That would be the WRONG way to answer. The RIGHT way would be something like "Really? I see the Intaki as more techno-buddhists. That's how I play my character, but hey, it's a big Cluster, right?"
Quite a bit of the FAQ is designed in part to address these very sorts of issues, in fact.
If you want to have a discussion about how you, with your characters, approach interactions with enemies, that is certainly allowed. What isn't allowed is the suggestion that because other people don't interact in what you believe to be the 'correct' way, that they are doing it wrong or that their RP isn't valid.
Posting YDIW flamebait in a thread is the wrong way to go about it.
TLDR: It doesn't matter if someone is pretending to be a Cylon, there is no special 'But they are really, really wrong!' exemption to the 'YDIW' rule. Feel free to post about your own approach without casting aspersions on other people's approaches, though.
Finally, this thread isn't the place for that discussion. So if you want to have it make your own thread. There are slightly different standards in Mod Discussion, but additional off-topic posts will be catacombed.
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Yes well, to Norrin and anyone else who doesn't like the way I have my cake and eat it too in a game I pay money every month to play - you can take those opinions and sit on them. I will very happily have Katrina fraternize with whoever I want in EVE, share a beer with them, have a chat with them, get to know the person behind the loyalties. I will do this while continuing to be a Liberal Caldari Loyalist.... and I'm not going to let you tell me I'm 'doinitrong'. Not even you, Ember.
Yes. Norrin's post can go burn in the catacombs. I agree with Silver.
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Clear YDIW.
We should open a more serious thread about the issue, it would be healthier, instead of flamebaiting. If people really have an issue with that, it can be discussed by mature beings.
I have difficulties to see why we have to catacomb so many posts every week. Sanctions are too light or something ? People unable to behave more responsibly ? Is that so hard to behave according to the rules ?
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We actually had gone an entire week without anything needing to be catacombed (or, for that matter, without anything being reported by anyone for us to look at).
Nice things never last. :P
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I was mostly asking to myself a rhetorical question about the ethical dichotomy in that RP community.
Most people support the moderation and the reason why it is what it is. And yet a lot feel like they suddenly can break the rules when they feel it "justified" (no, it never is).
I can't comprehend that. To me that's a serious issue of selective ethics.
I'm maybe not going to get popular by stating things like this, but I don't care.
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What vaguely irritates me is neither the moderation, nor the posts that get moderated (I read FHC, backstage is unnaturally polite in comparison).
It's how every other time a post gets moderated, some people appear to go "It's not that bad! What did you do that for?!" no matter what the subject was.
Someone has reported the post, the moderators have seen it and declared it unworthy, HTFU. :roll:
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Well, if we didn't want people to be able to discuss moderation, we wouldn't have a section for it. Sometimes things aren't that clear, and it helps we can clarify them. Also, if someone doesn't understand why they were moderated, we want to make sure they know so they won't do the same thing in the future (or alternately so that when they do do the same thing, they can't say they didn't know).
That being said, I may notate every moderation action I take from now on with just:
[mod]The post has been found Unworthy.[/mod]
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I would love you forever if you do.
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I would love you forever if you do.
I would not, because it would result in more (usually) unnecessary threads like this.
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Thanks much for declaring my thread "unnecessary" Morwen. It makes you so endearing as a mod.
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I guess I'm not allowed to ask questions. Is that the case? I'd love to know now.
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Stop it, you're posting wrong :(
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Lasa I think Morwen's referring to the change in discussion, not your thread. Don't read so much into things. Not everyone is out to get you.
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Lasa I think Morwen's referring to the change in discussion, not your thread. Don't read so much into things. Not everyone is out to get you.
Oh shush, Anslo. Not everyone is as special as you. She could be more specific. :roll: May I have my thread locked now?
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I notice that noone suggested you weren't allowed to ask questions - and indeed moderators have responded to your questions and answered them in this thread. Kindly avoid putting words into people's mouths, as it doesn't tend to lead anywhere good.
Morwen was, I believe, referring to threads that result from lack of clear explanation of the rationale for moderation (like just posting 'this post is Unworthy' would be). So, something that is the fault of the moderators, rather than the posters.
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As stated in my report, I took it exactly like Lasa did, so it might not be something isolated. It may have been a mistake of form, but it remains offensive and your doing it wrong to my eyes.
Edit : "unecessary threads like this" is explicit enough in my book. You can twist it as much as you want, I fail to see how to read it otherwise.
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Well, either way, it didn't come across like that to me. Can you please just remove this thread? I think I have my answer now.
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As stated in my report, I took it exactly like Lasa did, so it might not be something isolated. It may have been a mistake of form, but it remains offensive and your doing it wrong to my eyes.
Edit : "unecessary threads like this" is explicit enough in my book. You can twist it as much as you want, I fail to see how to read it otherwise.
I notice that a) There is a 'usually' there, and b) It isn't twisting it to point out that the context was the suggestion that we would use an almost perfectly unhelpful moderator comment in threads. Threads in Moderator discussion are often unnecessary in the sense that had the moderator more clearly explained why a post or thread was being moderated in the first place, people wouldn't need to ask. For example, in this case, I went with a very short explanation, and it clearly wasn't sufficient.
Generally speaking, treating a portion of a sentence as standing apart from the context of the rest of the sentence (much less the rest of the discussion) will net you many more offensive comments than actually exist.
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I disagree.
I could have quoted the whole sentence and it would remain the exact same conclusion for me. I do not understand the logic behind your explanation and am sorry to say it, but find it highly irrational and trying to minimize what I consider to be clearly a wrong, even if not intentional (you have the benefit of the doubt).
Usually refers to other posts, like this one. It is written like this one. I am not inventing anything. If other threads are usually unnecessary like this one, that does not change the fact that this one was deemed unnecessary.
Am I doing a mistake of english comprehension or something ?
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I can see where you are coming from.
However, what they were discussing was specifically moderator comments in moderated threads (in this case, that it might be simply 'This thread has been found Unworthy'). Overly brief (or in that case, completely information free) moderator comments lead to threads that are 'unnecessary' in that a more detailed moderator comment initially would have meant that people would not still have questions. Given that what Morwen was commenting on was what the result of using that moderator comment on moderated posts and threads would be, I don't think that is irrational. In fact, it makes rather more sense than Morwen up and deciding to be dismissive of a thread he has already constructively commented in, I think.
I'm afraid that is the best that I can explain it, and I apologize if it still isn't clear for you.
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Perhaps it would be helpful for the discussion to explain why the post below was not moderated, as it could still be interpreted as YDIW?
Istvaan Shogaatsu : I would make him behave with cool and less crazed. Give him some more dignity. 8) He deserves it. I lost quite a bit of respect for the character both IC and OOC after Silas' Festus.
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It was not reported?
If the moderation is mostly guided by reports it means that those that are more liked within the community or whom represent the views of the majority will get their posts less moderated.
It seems a bit off, but there is plenty of YDIW stuff out there that is not moderated just because of the person posting it.
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I can see where you are coming from.
However, what they were discussing was specifically moderator comments in moderated threads (in this case, that it might be simply 'This thread has been found Unworthy'). Overly brief (or in that case, completely information free) moderator comments lead to threads that are 'unnecessary' in that a more detailed moderator comment initially would have meant that people would not still have questions. Given that what Morwen was commenting on was what the result of using that moderator comment on moderated posts and threads would be, I don't think that is irrational. In fact, it makes rather more sense than Morwen up and deciding to be dismissive of a thread he has already constructively commented in, I think.
I'm afraid that is the best that I can explain it, and I apologize if it still isn't clear for you.
I have to admit I have a difficult time following you, but my issue is not that Morwen was thinking something else and did a mistake unconsciously, my issue is that it is not moderated, period. Anybody else would have been for less than that.
My issue is that once again, members of the mod team seem to defend each other, when they actually do a very nice and decent job for everyone else breaking the rules.
I find it even more funny to read that specific post just after my post on selective ethics. :bash:
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I wouldn't have moderated anyone else for making the same post, but given he was talking about an issue specific to moderators, I'm not sure anyone else would have made the post anyway?
EditEdit: Edited out something that should be handled through PM.
Edit2: Also, I'm not suggesting that in this case Morwen made a mistake. I think Morwen's post is fine. I understand why you might read it the way you read it, but I think you are immediately going to the most negative possible interpretation.
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It was not reported?
If the moderation is mostly guided by reports it means that those that are more liked within the community or whom represent the views of the majority will get their posts less moderated.
It seems a bit off, but there is plenty of YDIW stuff out there that is not moderated just because of the person posting it.
afaik, reporting is anonymous.
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Perhaps it would be helpful for the discussion to explain why the post below was not moderated, as it could still be interpreted as YDIW?
Istvaan Shogaatsu : I would make him behave with cool and less crazed. Give him some more dignity. 8) He deserves it. I lost quite a bit of respect for the character both IC and OOC after Silas' Festus.
I didn't see it, and that post would indeed probably qualify for moderation. We don't see every single post, or when we do we might not read closely enough to realize it needs moderation.
Edit: Katrina: Reports have the reporter's name attached, along with their comment. That being said, the only people who see it are Mods, and we have rules against telling anyone who reports what. Similarly, we don't disclose who gets warnings or bans in most situations. The exception is when someone brings it up themselves.
Edit2: Lallara, I would encourage you to use the report button if you see a YDIW post that isn't moderated. The thing about reports is that except in particularly egregious cases, we generally only get 1 report - maybe 2 - for any given post. So it isn't like 'Oh, this post has 15 reports, better look at it'. It's more like, 'Oh, this post has a report, better look at it'. It doesn't matter if the reporter or reportee is 'liked' or 'in the majority'.
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I am going to be horrible for a moment.
While it is not heavily trafficked, you are welcome to invite someone to have a "no-rules"* discussion on what they are doing in Eve at Chatsubo (http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/).
*Please follow the scant rules that are there like no porn, spam, or actually illegal posts.
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I am going to be horrible for a moment.
While it is not heavily trafficked, you are welcome to invite someone to have a "no-rules"* discussion on what they are doing in Eve at Chatsubo (http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/).
*Please follow the scant rules that are there like no porn, spam, or actually illegal posts.
I would (and have in the past, and continue to) recommend this, for people who feel the rules here are too restrictive. Chatsubo doesn't have a YDIW rule. You're still a mod there, right?
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I am and while there is no YDIW rule, those engaging it are warned that other users will point it out in the guidelines.
Users are entitled to say that someone is 'wrong'. For that matter, users are entitled to say that someone's 'RP is wrong', but should note that it is considered quite discourteous and other forum users will likely point this out in a more or less robust manner (unless the person being told they are wrong is claiming that the Cylons live on Amarr Prime or something of the sort).
Users are entitled to their opinion and to state it so long as it does not amount to a direct attack, a derogatory or defamatory OOC accusation of some kind or a racist, (or sexist, etc.) exhortation.
Link (http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5546)
What this really means is that a discussion about whether or not characters in PIE should hang out with Blooders in a Minmatar Bar is fine so long as folks can manage to be at least as pleasant as debating politicians (and hopefully not as boring).
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Edit2: Also, I'm not suggesting that in this case Morwen made a mistake. I think Morwen's post is fine. I understand why you might read it the way you read it, but I think you are immediately going to the most negative possible interpretation.
Lasa too went to the most negative interpretation, apparently, I assume, then ?
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I am going to be horrible for a moment.
While it is not heavily trafficked, you are welcome to invite someone to have a "no-rules"* discussion on what they are doing in Eve at Chatsubo (http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/).
*Please follow the scant rules that are there like no porn, spam, or actually illegal posts.
I would (and have in the past, and continue to) recommend this, for people who feel the rules here are too restrictive. Chatsubo doesn't have a YDIW rule. You're still a mod there, right?
Wouldn't it be easier to make a place for such discussions here? I say this because chatsubo is practically dead, but still a really great resource.
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I'm no mind-reader, but I suspect that Silver's response to the suggestion that we make a subforum where all of the rules that were put in place specifically to make this place NOT like Chatsubo are ignored is going to be a flat, resounding, no.
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That would be quite insane to have one forums were flamewars are raging and just on the same forum all the rest supposed to stay clean...
It's going to spread. Considering how people seem unable to restrain themselves already... no ?
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I am going to be horrible for a moment.
While it is not heavily trafficked, you are welcome to invite someone to have a "no-rules"* discussion on what they are doing in Eve at Chatsubo (http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/).
*Please follow the scant rules that are there like no porn, spam, or actually illegal posts.
I would (and have in the past, and continue to) recommend this, for people who feel the rules here are too restrictive. Chatsubo doesn't have a YDIW rule. You're still a mod there, right?
Wouldn't it be easier to make a place for such discussions here? I say this because chatsubo is practically dead, but still a really great resource.
There's a reason even Chatsubo closed down its "Bitching section" where it was a free for all.
Didn't work there and won't work here.
As for mods there I'm still one and I visit regularly to houseclean the place from Bots and wander the empty halls.
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I doubt we would ever get something with no rules, but less rules where we could talk and be a bit blunt without worrying about someone crying about their feelings getting hurt would be kinda cool. v0v
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I don't think I would like it, personally.
If we start with sections with different rules, it's going to become a damn mess quite fast. People will start to ask other sections with their own set of rules since someone got his own here and complain that it's unfair that some can and some cannot.
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I don't think I would like it, personally.
If we start with sections with different rules, it's going to become a damn mess quite fast. People will start to ask other sections with their own set of rules since someone got his own here and complain that it's unfair that some can and some cannot.
It's not the Ember subforum, it's just a subforum that I think could be warranted or perhaps maybe even wanted by some. ( I dont think I'm the first person to suggest this.)
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I don't think I would like it, personally.
If we start with sections with different rules, it's going to become a damn mess quite fast. People will start to ask other sections with their own set of rules since someone got his own here and complain that it's unfair that some can and some cannot.
It's not the Ember subforum, it's just a subforum that I think could be warranted or perhaps maybe even wanted by some. ( I dont think I'm the first person to suggest this.)
You aren't - I think there is a thread in the website features section about it. Morwen is correct though, it is something that has been looked at in the past, but the judgement has been that it would undermine the who atmosphere we go for here.
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I don't think I would like it, personally.
If we start with sections with different rules, it's going to become a damn mess quite fast. People will start to ask other sections with their own set of rules since someone got his own here and complain that it's unfair that some can and some cannot.
It's not the Ember subforum, it's just a subforum that I think could be warranted or perhaps maybe even wanted by some. ( I dont think I'm the first person to suggest this.)
You're not the first and you won't be the last.
The stance, as far as I can tell, is that it won't happen.
There is a ready made solution though in The Chatsubo. There are existing mods. The infrastructure exists and the ruleset is laxer.
Looking back on how this place was created it was in similar circumstances:
A few people were not happy with how things were and then started Backstage. This was in response to a general feeling of a need for enforced civility through rules.
In this case where there are people wanting a forum where you can be brasher.
It exists. All it needs is people posting.
Sure it'll mean you have to check two places.
Sure it'll mean fewer users, at least in the beginning, or for the duration depending on what people want.
Why is this a problem? For my various gaming needs I often go to several places to check for information or input. I am part of several communities which in some cases overlap. I can't possibly be alone in this.
It is not a competition nor a divisive split. It is merely two places were you can express yourself in different ways. Just as this is an addition so would posting on Chatsubo be.
Why not accept the differences and adapt to them instead of trying to change this place to something it isn't and doesn't need to be as there is an alternative?
This isn't solely aimed at you Ember but for all those that have expressed views wanting a laxer ruleset.
I'm just curious as to why people won't use Chatsubo. Is the only reason "But no one posts there"?
Then that would be easily remedied by posting there and have interesting enough debates and discussions to have others join in.
What are people afraid of?
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I know I don't have much of a say in this and it's probably hypocritical to even say this in the first place in some way I don't realize yet, but I feel this needs to be said.
We have a tight community despite our differences, flaws, sins, and life outlooks. We make enemies ICly as much as we make friends. We build alliances and break them. We trust and get back stabbed. But this all happens IC. For the most part, we are rather tight and civil with each other OOCly. This is what drew me to and keeps me in this community and Eve as a whole.
I know when I started I was derpy, but since then I have learned. The only reason I came back to Eve was because of you all and because things were not only kept interesting, but high quality. There wasn't a massive amount of cold shouldering or unnecessary exclusion. The community grew, became constructive, and really attractive. So I came back, and I'm happy.
But since that time, I have noticed a steady stream of discontent, vitriol, and in some cases outright animosity over more trivial things. Yes to some they may seem like 'a big deal' whether it be someone 'doing it wrong' or feeling their faction has been given the short straw, but step back a minute. Take a good step back and look at the situation.
Is arguing over one thing again and again and again and attacking people in this community really worth hurting a friend? Hurting an ally? Not IC but OOC.
I like to think that, OOC, we're all pretty tight. ICly Silas and Anslo hate each other, but I love Silas OOC for giving me that little spat of hate. It's fun. I haven't had this much fun or felt this close to a community in years of playing Eve. It's the equivalent of some smaller pvp corps of friends from years and years of knowing each other. Sure we don't always agree, but hey whatever.
But is constantly arguing and telling one of those friends 'you're doing it wrong' because they don't act like you think they should despite remaining within a certain boundary of action that isn't offensive worth hammering again and again? This brings me to my point.
Why does this keep happening? Why does the same YDIW crap and insults and demeaning keep happening? Why are we doing this to one of the few communities left that's actually really fun and lulzy? Constructive criticism is all well and good and it helps to better RP. Anslo's story is all the better for the CONSTRUCTIVE feedback he's gotten as well as the help in tweaking bits here and there.
That didn't happen from insults, that didn't happen from demeaning the idea, that didn't happen from saying trash the idea it's rubbish. It happened from people enjoying the same thing in the same game wanting to better the community and the lore for everyone to have a good time despite the potential derp because that same derp is what can create interesting stories that stick with people for a hell of a long time with a little tweaking.
But no, we keep on with this YDIW, we keep on cutting and gashing and hammering at others for small transgressions because we feel they're ruining the community, when in reality they're acting in an innocuous manner. Sure we have some exceptions where someone tries to stick a Sleeper in them and say they're the King of New Eden...that just isn't going to happen....yet anyway. Boy that'd be weird.
But we do it. And it irks people to no end. The last thing I want to see is a community, a great one, torn apart because people argued about who was friends with who. Yes it's Eve, yes the HTFU is always there, but I'm personally fucking sick of human nature being used as an excuse to HTFU when something like this pops up. I'm sick of people saying if you don't like it, find another game or RP circle. I'm sick of people using Eve's harshness to justify continued vitriolic and venomous rhetoric against people who are friendly, creative, and some of the best friends I've had in a long time. I'm sick of people tearing and ruining things because they don't get their way instead of taking their own advice and HTFUing instead of messing with others for the tiniest reasons.So to those who might do that I say this.
Get the flying fuck over yourselves. I'm sorry to say it, but I don't want to see the RP community turn into some ultra dramatic shit show that ends in everyone just sodding off. Drama will happen yes, but it can be mitigated to only IC with some OOC. We're adults. We're intelligent. We're civilized. Fucking act like it before this continued, angry, and unnecessary passive aggressive (and sometimes aggressive) activities ruin the one last fucking good thing in Eve that drives stories forwards and sparks creativity in people willing to jump into it.
Call me soft, tell me to HTFU, tell me whatever you want but I am sick of it and I'm saying this here and now. Block me, bounty me, do whatever you want. But the vitriol and ydiw and aggressive posturing against OOC, Summit, and everything else needs to stop if we want to see an already flourishing RP community grow.
Get the fuck over yourselves and be civil. Have fun with people instead of holding grudges.
FUCK.
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+1 to anslol, although, to take a slightly different view: Backstage is a large part of why we have a semi-meaningful RP community. Seriously. The enforced civility allows discussions which make it possible to realize that the player behind the character you hate isn’t quite as much of a shithead as you thought. EVE is a game that makes keeping IC and OOC separate really hard – and the fact that it’s actually possible to lose an IC conflict means the stakes are a lot higher. Even with backstage, we still have some rather deep divisions and a lot of mutual personal distaste, but from where I sit it looks like it’s much less than it’s been in the past.
The rules on this forum don’t really stop you from expressing an opinion; they simply require you to express it in a way that doesn’t pass judgment on people who disagree with you. What ‘community’ we have exists because we’ve been forced to rephrase our disagreements in ways that aren’t insulting and suddenly discovered that we don’t actually have to hate each other’s guts.
For many of us, this has worked really well. For some people, it hasn’t.
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Why does this keep happening? Why does the same YDIW crap and insults and demeaning keep happening? Why are we doing this to one of the few communities left that's actually really fun and lulzy?
In a nutshell, because of things a man smarter than me can explain better (http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html), and because ultimately, imagination is not the same as empathy.
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Why does this keep happening? Why does the same YDIW crap and insults and demeaning keep happening? Why are we doing this to one of the few communities left that's actually really fun and lulzy?
In a nutshell, because of things a man smarter than me can explain better (http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html), and because ultimately, imagination is not the same as empathy.
Your link went to a viagra dealer website.
Dude wat.
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I don't think I would like it, personally.
If we start with sections with different rules, it's going to become a damn mess quite fast. People will start to ask other sections with their own set of rules since someone got his own here and complain that it's unfair that some can and some cannot.
It's not the Ember subforum, it's just a subforum that I think could be warranted or perhaps maybe even wanted by some. ( I dont think I'm the first person to suggest this.)
That's mostly for reasons similar to what Anslo explained above that I would really fear such an initiative. It's like suddenly giving guns to chimps (sorry for the comparisons but are we so much better than chimps at times ?).
A lot of members are already unable to control their basic, entrenched emotional urges even with this polished and strict environnement. Why would it be better in a relaxed one ? Chatsubo is the proof it did not in the past.
Edit : I will review my opinion when there will be no more than 1 catacombed post per month. Of course, that moderated post will have to be done by mistake, not intentionally. And of course, I do not count the possibility where everyone got banhammered out of the forum so that nobody posts anymore (<- I see you coming, smartasses). I challenge all of you to prove me wrong by doing so for a few months.
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Why does this keep happening? Why does the same YDIW crap and insults and demeaning keep happening? Why are we doing this to one of the few communities left that's actually really fun and lulzy?
In a nutshell, because of things a man smarter than me can explain better (http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html), and because ultimately, imagination is not the same as empathy.
Your link went to a viagra dealer website.
Dude wat.
Worked for me? A group is it's own worst enemy. Do you have adblock? :P
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Why does this keep happening? Why does the same YDIW crap and insults and demeaning keep happening? Why are we doing this to one of the few communities left that's actually really fun and lulzy?
In a nutshell, because of things a man smarter than me can explain better (http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html), and because ultimately, imagination is not the same as empathy.
Your link went to a viagra dealer website.
Dude wat.
Worked for me? A group is it's own worst enemy. Do you have adblock? :P
No but I've been offered Viagra and Cialis for $.20 a pill.
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Yeah, that's supposed to go to an article by Clay Shirky titled "A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy." Does for me and apparently for Kala as well.. maybe you've caught some kind of adware?
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VCsqWxa1ENQ/TZI2HmpA6pI/AAAAAAAACUk/jQfDtz-68mg/s400/YOU-ARE-BAD-AND-YOU-SHOULD-FEEL-BAD.jpg)
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I didn't see it, and that post would indeed probably qualify for moderation.
:eek:
In the light of this new knowledge, I've edited my post:
Istvaan Shogaatsu : I would make him behave more cool and less crazed. Give him some more dignity. 8) He deserves it. I lost quite a bit of respect for the character both IC and OOC after Silas' Festus. [Edit: In no way should this be taken as YDIW, it's just that my perception of Istvaan was altered after the Festus. Can't argue about tastes. :bear:]
Better?
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... the whole thread is based on the notion of YDIW?
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... the whole thread is based on the notion of YDIW?
Depends on if the respondents consider their actions an improvement or correction of behavior. If they are just doing something they'd 'like to see' (characterful activity be damned in some cases), then YDIW isn't much of an issue IMO.
Then again I am very much of the 'hold strong opinions, but speak softly' on the issue of YDIW. In a competitive game, if the YDIW perception doesn't compete with your rp, money making or pew pew, then there's really no reason to start treading on dreams. If it does enter that domain - stamp on it with your meta boots like a four year old would a puddle. All's fair in love and war, the grey in between is just there for the long drive ;).