Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Alizabeth on 18 Feb 2013, 21:39
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So, someone makes a character, claims a distant (really distant: cousin 9th removed). In practical terms, this means nothing. My 5 greats uncle was the vice president of the CSA. I'm also descended from William Bradford. Does this mean anything practically? Nope(.jpg).
Now, there are plenty of other characters that have interesting relations, minor branches of the Sarum family, for instance.
Backgrounds cannot be vetted. Asking Verone to make a post from some CONCORD official or record keeper from each empire to verify a background is too much.
So, rather than immediately calling them out. "I checked the records, and you're not there" which, in my completely unhumble opinion, counts as godmodding, just go with it. If they start using that relationship for anything other than fluff, i.e. some character says that they're the Empress's favorite niece and, well, we can stop there, by all mean, question that validity. Since, in my completely unhumble opinion, godmodding an NPC, living or dead is bad as well.
If someone wants to do anything regarding a background--and really, what's to stop someone else from saying that "I dug in the records and you were a prostitute as a teenager!"--they should contact the other player first. If someone feels that a background is an issue, make a post here, send a mail, but don't, in my completely unhumble opinion, decide that their version of RP must be wrong and corrected.
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Ah, but, what about:
IC claim: "Yes, and I'm the grandson of Matias Sobaseki, leader of the Caldari Rebellion, and therefore, my words have more weight then the rest of you plebian fools!" /IC claim
See, the problem with making these sorts of claims is that they are essentially requiring that other people RP according to your personal universe, with your rules. Making the claim that you are a relative of Tovil-Toba is essentially making a claim on my RP - specifically, that my character has to recognize that some member of the Tovil-Toba family believes the State is essentially junk. Since Tovil-Toba is the greatest Caldari hero, and the Caldari are family-oriented, that's actually a pretty big problem.
And if we can appropriate NPC names to ourselves, then hey, what's to stop me from creating a *sister of Roden* character to reveal that the Fed president, say, plans to kill all the Caldari? Or "brother of Jamyl Sarum* character to defect to the Republic? Doing this sort of thing seems to imply that one is a special person, who has the right to dictate to other players the storyline of the world. This is a privilege usually reserved for the authors of the setting.
This would be fine if we could get everyone to agree to it in a small setting. But in a large setting, like Eve, there's a tacit agreement that none of us will screw up another's RP by trying to be the special space princess or prince, because it causes problems for everyone else. When someone is perceived to be attempting such, they tend to receive the sort of response that goes along the lines of "prove it".
But this doesn't mean that your character has to do so. Your character can take such claims at face value if you wish. But it doesn't seem reasonable to insist that everyone else's character must do so as well.
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Roleplaying a character related (or even connected) to a character from the fluff can really rub people the wrong way, I think.
The problem is, while they might be subtle, they force the person interacting with the character to, albeit in a sometimes very minor way, add something to or change their perception of the PF. I'm going to assume this thread is in reference the girl roleplaying Tovil-Toba's greatgreatgreat niece on the IGS, so please correct me if I'm wrong in that regard.
While you're totally right that her character is pretty inoffensive outwardly and doesn't wave her lineage around in peoples faces in any sense of the word, she still pushes a few assumptions onto others that aren't in the fluff. For instance, that Tovil-Toba wasn't an only child, that his entire family hadn't been killed by the Gallenteans, that he wasn't an implanted Jovian spy...
Well, you get the idea. All of these things might be true, and some people aren't going to be willing to accept that they aren't by virtue of the characters existance. RPers are generally pretty territorial with their background, (sometimes to their benefit, sometimes not so much) and don't like the idea of someone being able to just waltz in and mess with it, especially if they're someone new to the community.
I'm not saying it can't work - I knew a guy who roleplayed a relation to a lore-centric character in Lord of the Rings online, and did a fantastic job of it. However, I think it's still unfair to expect people to universally accept it. So characters of that vein should probably... Well, keep it to private roleplay? I'm not saying it's right to hit them, ICly, with a big old your-rp-sucks, but for some it's a choice between that or breaking their immersion to willfully pretend the character, or that aspect of them, does not exist.
And that's not to mention that it can be a tremendously slippery slope. What might start as a minor connection can become more and more rooted in ones roleplay over time once it's accepted, and can also give the idea to others who might do the same thing with quite a bit less discretion.
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Accidental post.
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[mod]Just a friendly mod heads-up. This thread does seem constructive so far, and I appreciate it. Please keep it that way. I know this is a somewhat volatile subject matter as RPing goes. Remember: There's a difference between 'You can't RP that way!' and 'You can RP a cylon, but everyone is probably going to call you nuts IC. Here's how I would approach it.' One of them is allowed, one isn't.[/mod]
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IC claim: "Yes, and I'm the grandson of Matias Sobaseki, leader of the Caldari Rebellion, and therefore, my words have more weight then the rest of you plebian fools!" /IC claim
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See, the problem with making these sorts of claims is that they are essentially requiring that other people RP according to your personal universe, with your rules.
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And if we can appropriate NPC names to ourselves, then hey, what's to stop me from creating a *sister of Roden* character to reveal that the Fed president, say, plans to kill all the Caldari? Or "brother of Jamyl Sarum* character to defect to the Republic? Doing this sort of thing seems to imply that one is a special person, who has the right to dictate to other players the storyline of the world. This is a privilege usually reserved for the authors of the setting.
I think it's a matter of distance. If someone were to make a character that was Aliza's brother, that would be godmodding. If someone were to make a character that shared a common ancestor 13 generations earlier, that's some wiggle room. It makes no demand on someone's rp. My response would be something along the lines of: "oh, we share a name and maybe someone way back when the Caldari still lived on Caldari Prime. Big effing deal."
While you're totally right that her character is pretty inoffensive outwardly and doesn't wave her lineage around in peoples faces in any sense of the word, she still pushes a few assumptions onto others that aren't in the fluff. For instance, that Tovil-Toba wasn't an only child, that his entire family hadn't been killed by the Gallenteans, that he wasn't an implanted Jovian spy...
The relation makes no demands on Tovil-Toba (the PF one). All it presupposes is that his grandfather had more than one child. Remember that scene in Dogma, where Chris Rock tells Bethany that she's related to Jesus? Same concept.
Everybody's related to someone. Hell, how many people in the world are related to Genghis Khan? A metric crapton.
A good response would be: All you share with the admiral is his last name, because you sure did not acquire his honor.
My litmus test would be: does this affect PF. Jamyl's brother, cousin, aunt, niece, would affect PF, since that would require some action on Jamyl's part (and would likely get a CCP urdoinitwrong poast.) Her thirteenth cousin, though? Assume 2.5 kids per generation. After thirteen generations that's 150(ish) thousand people that someone could be related too. And, Seraphia is not claiming direct ancestry, which might fall into something that should not happen.
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Can't read the OP, but there's a big difference between giving your character the family name and being 'distantly related'. Carrying the family name is not so distant. It's rather in-your-face obvious and direct relation.
That said, people make Kador and Sarum characters... why not Tovil-Toba. That's not going to stop everybody saying you're effectively not part of the family legacy when you go traitor though. Name your character what you want, but don't expect IC folks to take you more seriously because of it, or OOC for that matter. It's just a name.
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The relation makes no demands on Tovil-Toba (the PF one). All it presupposes is that his grandfather had more than one child.
Well, yeah, but even that assumption is enough to upset people.
I mean - Who says Tovil-Toba even exists? Maybe he's a construct of the Caldari media. Who knows.
People get upset when other players make decisions about the reality of the lore for them, even if those realities are impossibly trivial. I'm not saying if this is a good thing or if it's somewhat neurotic - That probably depends on the scenario - but it's a thing to expect when one goes for something like this.
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I mean - Who says Tovil-Toba even exists? Maybe he's a construct of the Caldari media. Who knows.
That's like saying the Tetatae don't exist. *Squawk!* I think we'd be getting in dangerous grounds the moment we start denying PF.
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Well, personally, I think that avoiding confusion with NPC entities is a good thing to do. I mean, to take your own example, Goonswarm has become very famous without having to trade on an NPC name. I think that players should make their own names, not use NPCs. I think that's fairest to other players, and to the devs.
I'm really trying to be sensitive to "urdoingitwrong" here, without losing my phrasing. Basically, when someone calls themselves a "Sarum", or "Heth", or "Shakor", or whatnot, it seems to me that they are trying to essentially buy RP credibility at the cost of everyone else's RP possibilities and perceptions. At some level, names do mean something to us. At some level, therefore, they probably mean something to our characters. It doesn't seem fair to me to try to seize that as a hammer over other's heads. I don't mind people using those things for background, certainly - say, if Vik grew up in KK or something - but there's a difference between a past history and a present association as a member.
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Hahah - Alright, fair enough. I phrased that a little poorly.
I more meant that there are things about Tovil-Toba that we simply don't know about. It's very unlikely that this is by design, but people will still get upset at others deciding to fill in those gaps for them, since he's such an important character in the backstory and the assumptions are very, well, specific.
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People name-drop all the time in reality, associating themselves with distant relatives that no one can corroborate without way more effort than most people are willing to perform. Why? Because it's ultimately not that important, unless somehow their lives are impacted by that influence. Who cares if Jared Sarum III is the great niece to the Empress unless they actually can wield the influence in some constructive way? Otherwise, it's just a good tale to tell at a bar.
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I'm really trying to be sensitive to "urdoingitwrong" here, without losing my phrasing. Basically, when someone calls themselves a "Sarum", or "Heth", or "Shakor", or whatnot, it seems to me that they are trying to essentially buy RP credibility at the cost of everyone else's RP possibilities and perceptions.
If I meet someone who's last name is Kennedy, and I find out they are JFK's 13th cousin twice removed, how does that change my perception of them?
By all means, correct Seraphia on the history, as some have. "The Admiral would be ashamed, he did all this stuff for the people, you're betraying his memory, etc, etc." Use what Aliza said, that the family has disowned her. "You don't have the right to call yourself Tobil-Tova any more."
Hell, send her an OOC mail, find out the story behind the 'chaos' call sign, get it, make a post about that (it's not flattery, that call sign). There are plenty of ways to work with a character, rather than pull the old "records search."
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I'm sure you would agree, though, that just as players can't make a records search, she can't produce records verifying her claim. So simply saying 'No you aren't' or calling her a fraud is perfectly valid IC. That sort of thing works both ways.
That is also why it is fairly uncommon, I think - leaving aside possible OOC reactions, IC you are unlikely to get much traction unless you do a very good job.
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People get upset when other players make decisions about the reality of the lore for them, even if those realities are impossibly trivial. I'm not saying if this is a good thing or if it's somewhat neurotic - That probably depends on the scenario - but it's a thing to expect when one goes for something like this.
The thing is, in lore there are no truly 'trivial' bits. They all help form a cohesive universe, with established rules and a defined history.
If I claim to be the son of Empress Jamyl, for example, it requires that we throw out the established conventions of the EVE universe (that clones can't reproduce, and that Jamyl doesn't have any children).
It's important to remember that to our characters, the 'lore' isn't just the creation of someone sitting at a desk in an office in Iceland -- it actually happened, and someone trying to disregard it will most likely be dismissed as a crackpot.
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I'm sure you would agree, though, that just as players can't make a records search, she can't produce records verifying her claim. So simply saying 'No you aren't' or calling her a fraud is perfectly valid IC. That sort of thing works both ways.
That is also why it is fairly uncommon, I think - leaving aside possible OOC reactions, IC you are unlikely to get much traction unless you do a very good job.
I think that player backgrounds should be taken at face value. If the player wants to have some twist, that should be communicated to someone OOCly (preferably the character that it affects) before hand. Say for example, I were to make a freed minmatar slave that came to the republic, but was really an amarrian spy or some sort. Depending on the circumstance (say, if I wanted to remain friends with said character, I would tell them before the big reveal. This is EvE, and if you want to wind up a director of UK and then hand over everything to CVA or PIE and claim you were an Amarr plant the whole time, you're perfectly free to do so.
Now that there are CCP actors running around, I think that the urdoingitwrong should be left to them. If someone makes a character that says they are Heth's brother, I'm pretty sure Falcon is going to slap that one down right quick. I saw that happen with the Leopold Caine getting arrested RP that happened. Someone claimed to be an RJD enforcer and an RJD actor said "nope!"
I'll agree that she can't produce concrete evidence of her claim, but by the same token, someone should not be able to claim a records search, either. In this case . . . I don't know how to proceed since two people have claimed two things that, in the future, should not be claimed.
If Vik can request a records search, then Aliza can just as easily say that she bribed an employee, or they were a GIA mole all along.
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You can believe that of course. But the thing is, people are under no obligation to go along with your RP, just as you are under no obligation to not have a character that claims to be some PF figures distant relative. Their character saying 'Oh, so you're crazy' is just as valid as your character saying 'I'm Heth's secretary's nephew'. It may not lead to much more RP interaction afterward, but that's the risk in playing that type of character.
That's why I feel entirely comfortable having a no 'ur doing it wrong' rule here. People can offer constructive advice, but at the end of the day, if someone's character is a Cylon (it happened, more than once), that's their business. And it's perfectly valid RP. But they probably aren't going to have a lot of people RPing with them. No OOC 'ur doing it wrong' needed.
The distant relative idea might be doable - but I think a key part of having a useful RP future for a character like that is going to be how you approach people who disbelieve you, and how you approach the character. A contest of back and forth proof/counter-proof is unlikely to get you anywhere. Shrugging it off and then playing an interesting character is more likely to be profitable in the long run, from what I've seen.
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If I claim to be the son of Empress Jamyl, for example, it requires that we throw out the established conventions of the EVE universe (that clones can't reproduce, and that Jamyl doesn't have any children).
Emphasis mine. You may want to read this thread (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76497&find=unread), and this post in particular (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=925223#post925223) from Abraxas.
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That's why I feel entirely comfortable having a no 'ur doing it wrong' rule here. People can offer constructive advice, but at the end of the day, if someone's character is a Cylon (it happened, more than once), that's their business. And it's perfectly valid RP. But they probably aren't going to have a lot of people RPing with them. No OOC 'ur doing it wrong' needed.
By cylon, you mean Sansha, right? Or are we talking actual cylon with the little sweeping glowy eye?
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Actual Cylon. It's a bit of an extreme example, but illustrates the mechanism I'm talking about, I think.
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The more a particular thread of your RP crosses other people's, the greater the potential for contradictions, and for godmodding. For example, to take an even more apparently innocuous example, what if I roll a character who is a distant cousin of the Mayor of Caille? Well, for one thing, it forces people to agree with me that Caille has a mayor. A famous author, or artist? That godmodes other characters into having heard of me, if they have any awareness of the arts.
Being the distant cousin of a PF character may seem like a bit of harmless fluff and color, but these PF characters are pretty big deals to our characters. Posting as a relative to Tovil-Toba is like, say, writing a letter to the editor to the New York Times as 'Jane Lincoln yes related to that Lincoln'. People would pay attention to the claim, not the content, and there'd be demands for proof and claims it was impossible.
In real life, there'd either be documentation or you'd be written off as a fabulist. In Eve, there's no such documentation. Requiring people not to write you off as a fabulist because the documentation doesn't exist is godmodding their responses.
This is why it's generally better to be the distant cousin of the mayor of a town or city not mentioned in the PF; or an artist or author who is known locally; or the distant descendant of Tovil-Toba's bridge officer.
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In real life, there'd either be documentation or you'd be written off as a fabulist. In Eve, there's no such documentation. Requiring people not to write you off as a fabulist because the documentation doesn't exist is godmodding their responses.
I'm in agreement. If they want to go that route, that's fine. But saying they did a records search is an entirely different something.
Example: when I made Sapphire, I had no knowledge of much of the lore, so I made her a malfunctioned trueslave that didn't remember anything. Slowly she got her memories back and spoke out about Nation. Kyber simply said, "I think you ran into some mad scientists that messed with your brain." This was a million times better than "I talked to papa Sansha and he says you're full of shit."
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In real life, there'd either be documentation or you'd be written off as a fabulist. In Eve, there's no such documentation. Requiring people not to write you off as a fabulist because the documentation doesn't exist is godmodding their responses.
I'm in agreement. If they want to go that route, that's fine. But saying they did a records search is an entirely different something.
"There are no records I can find" seems to me to be an entirely accurate statement, ICly and OOCly. The problem seems to be that this character made claims that are, by their very nature, unverifiable. There are, in fact, no records linking her to the Tovil-Toba family. Rather than RPing with that (records got lost!), or (as I would have done) contacting people OOCly prior to making the claim IC to work out the kinks and problems, Alizabeth Vea doubled-down on the claim by ICly claiming such records did exist and were accessible.
However, they don't exist, and aren't accessible. Claiming they do is an attempt to force other players to respond to RP in specific ways.
A generally good rule for avoiding this kind of sticky situation with a new character is, in my experience, not to claim anything specific that actually isn't verifiable by other players or agreed with them beforehand.
The only things you can point to as 'facts' about your character that other players must accept are what shows on showinfo and on killboards. The less intrusive your other claims are, the less likely other people will bother to dispute it, but they always have that option. (Cia was born planetside? Prove it! I, ah, can't.)
Also, what will this player do if a dev actor from the House of Records does turn up and makes it PF that the character is lying or deluded? These are all good reasons not to entangle a back-story with important NPCs, places and events.
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For what it is worth, I actually have entered "Seraphia 'Chaos' Tovil-Toba" into the Evelopedia, making sure I didn't miss anything, but got no hits. So...no, neither my character nor I can find any records.
Keep in mind, my character's statements have been entirely predicated on the inability to find information. I think that this is perfectly reasonable: you can make claims to such relations, but my character doesn't have to buy them.
I haven't always been on this side of the line. I once did an RP storyline where we (friends and I) blew up a city on a planet. It was a small town, but the response was still "ok, proof?". And, I looked at that, and went "you know, that's reasonable. If someone claimed they killed people planet-side in the State, I'd say the same thing." So I've been bitten by this, but I still think that "proof?" is a reasonable response to assertions of this type.
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For what it is worth, I actually have entered "Seraphia 'Chaos' Tovil-Toba" into the Evelopedia, making sure I didn't miss anything, but got no hits. So...no, neither my character nor I can find any records.
Keep in mind, my character's statements have been entirely predicated on the inability to find information. I think that this is perfectly reasonable: you can make claims to such relations, but my character doesn't have to buy them.
IC, it should be pretty simple to do a search on the galnet to find out things about a person's background. It's easy enough to do IRL. A name and a little bit of info and you can find out someone's address, their credit history, arrest records, phone number, and a scary amount more for around two hundred bucks.
I suppose that every character could make a eveolopeia entry for their character upon creation, but you know, :effort:
If the community is going to start demanding proof for every claim that is made, RP is going to get very, very sucky.
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Just an aside on the Amarrian characters sharing surnames with the Heirs.
The surnames of the Heirs are also names of Regions, therefore the name does not equate any kind of blood relationship. Sharing a surname with a Region might be something comparable to the surname of 'Snow' in the Game of Thrones. A common surname for bastards.
Which would be bloody hilarious if it were true. :D
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My random two cents for what they are worth (which is pretty much nothing) is this is really none of your business. If you don't like how someone RPs you don't have to RP with them. *shrugs* Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Then again, I would never make any fantastical claims that Lasa is related to someone high and mighty. Never crossed my mind really.
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Just an aside on the Amarrian characters sharing surnames with the Heirs.
The surnames of the Heirs are also names of Regions, therefore the name does not equate any kind of blood relationship. Sharing a surname with a Region might be something comparable to the surname of 'Snow' in the Game of Thrones. A common surname for bastards.
Which would be bloody hilarious if it were true. :D
It would be, and I would die of a giggling fit. However, I know for a fact there are some members of the Amarrian RP crowd that say "minor branch of whatever family."
For sanity's sake, if the community only accepts what can be 'proven' (which is damn little) then there is really no point to RPing. If someone says something, and if one is not sure whether their meant to be lying or grandstanding or what have you, a quick ooc, "yo duder, your character really such and such, or you just messing around." Get to the truth and run with it. Else, we can all quit RPing and just write fiction.
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I generally try to avoid threads with kind of claims at all costs when they are used the way they are here on the IGS. Vikarions points are valid to me and can cause a lot of concern and/or uneasiness.
Using a wide big family name like an Amarr house is a slightly less impacting on the scale of PF names. They are refering to Houses, like we refer to megacorps.
In the case of single famous individuals, it's closer to the familial side.
On another note, I tend to consider any background related to PF famous names (houses, or individuals) the same way a GM would consider it as "buying an advantage" for a character sheet. I usually expect the people using it to compensate for it and be subtle and clever about it.
tl;dr : as long as it's reasonably used with subtletly... I can accept almost everything.
I mean - Who says Tovil-Toba even exists? Maybe he's a construct of the Caldari media. Who knows.
That's like saying the Tetatae don't exist. *Squawk!* I think we'd be getting in dangerous grounds the moment we start denying PF.
It is not denying PF to me. It is merely an interpretation of it, as absurd as it may be.
Denying that interpretation, however, is denying the possibilities of PF, as silly as they may be.
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There is a distinction between asking other players to accept at face value something unprovable, but minor and non-controversial (My father was a naval officer; my age when I began pod-training was 18 or 28 or 38; my mother is a civil servant; my uncle is a minor poet) that doesn't affect everyone else's in-game universe, and expecting them to take at face value something unprovable, controversial, and affecting NPCs, identifiable places, or PF.
I doubt anyone, for example, would have said "I can't find any records showing your character is 24 years old / born on the Lai Dai Station in Torrinos / had a father in Mordu's Legion / all of the above".
The 'point' of RPing, for many people including me, is collaborative world-building, which requires a certain amount of awareness of the places where what you are building crosses over into other people's imaginative space.
Crossing into that space generally works much better if done with sensitivity and tact.
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Just an aside on the Amarrian characters sharing surnames with the Heirs.
The surnames of the Heirs are also names of Regions, therefore the name does not equate any kind of blood relationship. Sharing a surname with a Region might be something comparable to the surname of 'Snow' in the Game of Thrones. A common surname for bastards.
Which would be bloody hilarious if it were true. :D
Those regions are the heirs' Holdings. Either the Holder family has been named after the Holding, or the Holding has been named after the Holder family. That means that anyone who possesses that surname is going to be related by blood to the heir, though it may be to an extremely limited degree (like some minor Holder off in Tash-Murkon who happens to be related by his aunt's cousin-twice-removed's nephew's etc etc etc). The Empire is a feudal society, which means Family names and lineages are extremely important.
To the main topic: Personally, I don't mind people sharing surnames of major characters as long as it's only to an extremely minor degree. That being said, it is frequently used to 'piggyback' fame and importance off of. Essentially, anyone who takes a surname of a famous character and then immediately draws reference to that name every chance they get, then it doesn't matter how far removed they are as it's clear OOC exploitation.
It's much, much safer to just make up your own, or to use names from very minor families (like some random agent off in nowhere's land). While it's theoretically perfectly feasible to have someone have the surname of Heth, or Sarum, or Ardishapur, or whoever, who is only very distantly related to the NPC, from an OOC level it's rather poor form since it's used badly so very often. It will instantly give people a sour opinion of you, which will be very difficult to recover from even if you do play it well.
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I don't care one bit whether someone is someone's great-old-uncle's nephew nine times removed. I happen to share a name and distant familial connection with a (relatively) famous writer. Beyond the occasional blink as people recognize the name, and some added anonymity as hits on me tend to be buried deep in search results about this person, the consequences on my own and other people's lives are zero. YMMV. vOv
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On another note, I tend to consider any background related to PF famous names (houses, or individuals) the same way a GM would consider it as "buying an advantage" for a character sheet. I usually expect the people using it to compensate for it and be subtle and clever about it.
tl;dr : as long as it's reasonably used with subtletly... I can accept almost everything.
Any advantage that was gained from that name, was thrown away in the same breath by declaring for the Guristas. Sin's mail in response was literally: "I'll be watching your progress with a curious eye." Which is how it should be. No free passes for Seraphia based on her name. For her, the last name of Tovil-Toba and five kredits will get her a cup of coffee at StarISKies.
The 'point' of RPing, for many people including me, is collaborative world-building, which requires a certain amount of awareness of the places where what you are building crosses over into other people's imaginative space.
Crossing into that space generally works much better if done with sensitivity and tact.
There's really not a way to communicate with the community as a whole. Backstage does not represent all RPers, just a not insignificant number of them.
What's the difference between someone that happens to have a famous last name and someone that says, "I served in the CalNav for 27 years and now that I'm in the capsule, I'm going to torch this place?" The latter, I think, has a lot more implications.
You know why this happened? Because I'm sicker than a dog and could not think up a good last name. I remembered my 5 greats uncle was Someone Important (vice president of the Confederacy. Although, if we'd won, he'd be Someone More Important, heh) and thought, huh, that could be cool.
I'm a Marine Corps fangirl. Hell, I'm such a crazy fan that I joined them. (Which, I am sure you all will admit is some hard corps fandom, seeing how the country was at war when I enlisted.) I once had the opportunity to meet General Vandegrift's--you know the former Commandant that saved the Marine Corps--granddaughter. It took me all of two seconds to realize that there was nothing important about her, she was 17 and about as far from a Marine as one can get. I was all polite, and moved on.
I saw the name as a flaw. She has a huge complex about her, having grown up being told about how great the family was and never being able to live up to the standard. She's left the State not so much for any of the reasons listed on the thread--propaganda being propaganda--but to be somewhere that her name doesn't mean anything. She was a huge screw up at SWA; her callsign "Chaos" comes from her disregard for orders. She would just do what she wanted. She also graduated near the bottom of her class.
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I saw the name as a flaw. She has a huge complex about her, having grown up being told about how great the family was and never being able to live up to the standard. She's left the State not so much for any of the reasons listed on the thread--propaganda being propaganda--but to be somewhere that her name doesn't mean anything. She was a huge screw up at SWA; her callsign "Chaos" comes from her disregard for orders. She would just do what she wanted. She also graduated near the bottom of her class.
Well actually I find that more interesting. The main issue imo is that that specific thing was not emphasized and the focus was on something completely different, like the political views she holds, so people immediatly thought of a strawman alt or whatever.
I may have missed something of course, but that was definitly not the impression I got from the character when reading the IGS thread.
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I saw the name as a flaw. She has a huge complex about her, having grown up being told about how great the family was and never being able to live up to the standard. She's left the State not so much for any of the reasons listed on the thread--propaganda being propaganda--but to be somewhere that her name doesn't mean anything. She was a huge screw up at SWA; her callsign "Chaos" comes from her disregard for orders. She would just do what she wanted. She also graduated near the bottom of her class.
Well actually I find that more interesting. The main issue imo is that that specific thing was not emphasized and the focus was on something completely different, like the political views she holds, so people immediatly thought of a strawman alt or whatever.
I may have missed something of course, but that was definitly not the impression I got from the character when reading the IGS thread.
I didn't want to give everything away in the first post. . . .
Alizabeth deceives, misdirects, lets people falsely assume and sometimes outright lies in her RP. You may assume that Seraphia will do likewise.
Seraphia, though, is also lying to herself. She's convincing herself that going Guri is for the betterment of the Caldari people. As time goes on and she kills more and more State ships, her ability to doublethink is going to be checked. What happens then, I don't know.
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I am not saying that she necessarily should do the contrary.
I am just saying that's what brought the problem up.
And did you have to take Tovil-Toba ? Why not an imaginary lesser admiral caldari hero ? Should have worked better imo.
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Just adding my 2 cents
Some people get aseninely "youre doing it wrong" over the most simple, pedestrian things. I have had people go on great windy tirades at me, IC and OOC, because Ava has an Amarrian grandparent. "Even if that were true, you cannot produce the records to prove it!!!" .
So, I was taken to task over something in Ava's backstory for something that, uh... what was the problem with that, I still wonder?
Unless people appear and claim "I am teh son of teh empess!" I really think backstory is an area where people should have a pretty free hand. That is as fundamental to your character as it gets. Make sure youre not decrying something simply because it isnt what you would do.
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Ava! \o/ :cube:
If I could plusrep your post, I would. I would then make hundreds of alt accounts and plusrep it some more.
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Just a personal input, I suppose.
My response to these kinds of things is usually to focus on the substance of the character's character (heh) and have my characters respond accordingly. For example, in the case of young "Chaos" Malcolm hasn't mentioned one word about her heritage. Why? Because her heritage is irrelevant.
Even to a Caldari, whom tradition and heritage mean a great deal, the girl is advocating joining the Guristas which pretty much means she's forsaken any heritage she had and Malcolm basically just adopts the mindset "your Ancestors have forsaken you, time to earn your own merit" and he plays it accordingly. Accordingly, all of his discussion with her thus far has been arguing against her "for the good of the State, join the Guristas" mindset.
Likewise and Amarrian (whom heritage is also important to) would likely treat the character with a level of formality based on their name. For example, if you're a minor Holder in the Sarum family, my Holder (coming from a no-name family) would likely treat you with the respect you deserve - the respect of a minor Holder. He'd then pay attention to your political stances and see how similar they are to the rest of House Sarum and judge you individually from there.
TL;DR - Names be damned, stand on your own two feet. At least, as far as me and my characters are concerned.
On that note, the points made by Ciarente regarding forcing other players and characters to accept certain things based on your assertions and presumptions are really good points.
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To me it looked like the name got dropped to add further validation to the point.
"Tovil-Toba would disprove of the current State and I should know."
Add into that that this alt's sole purpose seems to be posting on the IGS.
While I agree that names themselves are rather unimportant I'd like to add that once you start using them to further an agenda that is related to them they tend to matter a great deal.
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While I agree that names themselves are rather unimportant I'd like to add that once you start using them to further an agenda that is related to them they tend to matter a great deal.
True.
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The character is not an IGS poster. I made another account so I could train her up to do things. Aliza and Sang are very restricted in their RP, as nothing that affects their place in GSF is tolerated. This alt will not be joining goons, but will be doing missions in venal, pvp in blackrise and placid and high sec ganking (piracy at it's best!)
Which is kinda why I made this thread, so that some misconceptions can be cleared up.
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I have to agree with Isis - Seraphia's last name isn't going to buy her any favors at all (especially since she's gone Gurista), and the relation is distant enough that I don't see the big issue.
There's a good handful of lesser Kuvakeis running around out there, last I checked, including an old Aurora character. To the best of my knowledge, not a single one of them has made the slightest bit of impact, unwelcome or otherwise, on Sansha RP.
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Just adding my 2 cents
Some people get aseninely "youre doing it wrong" over the most simple, pedestrian things. I have had people go on great windy tirades at me, IC and OOC, because Ava has an Amarrian grandparent. "Even if that were true, you cannot produce the records to prove it!!!" .
So, I was taken to task over something in Ava's backstory for something that, uh... what was the problem with that, I still wonder?
Unless people appear and claim "I am teh son of teh empess!" I really think backstory is an area where people should have a pretty free hand. That is as fundamental to your character as it gets. Make sure youre not decrying something simply because it isnt what you would do.
All of my this. As long as it's feasible, backgrounds shouldn't be PROVE IT PROVE IT. If it were, every single thing ever done in RP would be questioned and dismissed. Nothing would be done, NOTHING. EVERYTHING would be contributed to capsuleer dementia until everyone has been branded crazy.
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To me it looked like the name got dropped to add further validation to the point.
"Tovil-Toba would disprove of the current State and I should know."
Add into that that this alt's sole purpose seems to be posting on the IGS.
While I agree that names themselves are rather unimportant I'd like to add that once you start using them to further an agenda that is related to them they tend to matter a great deal.
This is definitely what it felt like to me - "I am not yet important, so here is a name to make me so."
This doesn't preclude the character becoming a standalone character in the future, of course, but it's a rocky start.
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To me it looked like the name got dropped to add further validation to the point.
"Tovil-Toba would disprove of the current State and I should know."
Add into that that this alt's sole purpose seems to be posting on the IGS.
While I agree that names themselves are rather unimportant I'd like to add that once you start using them to further an agenda that is related to them they tend to matter a great deal.
This is definitely what it felt like to me - "I am not yet important, so here is a name to make me so."
This doesn't preclude the character becoming a standalone character in the future, of course, but it's a rocky start.
This. First impressions are important.
When the first words out of a character's mouth give off a vibe of "I'm a special snowflake, hear me roar♪♫" as strongly as yours did, it's not an impression (taint would be a better word, really) that goes away very quickly, or at all.
Given your history with a number of your past characters, you really ought to be more than aware of this, and should be taking extra care to avoid it.
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None of us are related to anyone PF famous, and trying to shoehorn that we are has always been met with skepticism and general ignoring, for many many years.
Every once and a while someone pops up with a famous last name, and they are generally ignored or looked at as crazy. I don't see this changing.
There's a big world out there, and plenty of stories to tell that are removed from established PF characters.
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What Esna and Morlag said. That's the main point.
For sanity's sake, if the community only accepts what can be 'proven' (which is damn little) then there is really no point to RPing. If someone says something, and if one is not sure whether their meant to be lying or grandstanding or what have you, a quick ooc, "yo duder, your character really such and such, or you just messing around." Get to the truth and run with it. Else, we can all quit RPing and just write fiction.
This depends on the group you are RPing with. Some of the friends I've played with in EVE have made up some exceedingly fantastic backstories (mine included) which would have been (and were) ridiculed if (when) they'd ever been made public - which is part of why they never did. We kept to ourselves, we had our fun.
The more people that are going to be exposed to something, the more carefully crafted (or simply harmless) it's going to need to be to avoid a chorus of "Prove it!" The IGS is about as wide exposure as exists, and it's basically the last place you ever want to make any claim that isn't backed up by in-game action, particularly backstory stuff. I remember when Merdeneth (I think?) claimed to have set up orphanages in the Republic, and people came out of the woodwork to attack him (including some truly heinous examples of godmoding). Claiming to be the distant relative of someone famous is almost as certain a way to be mocked/questioned/discredited as actually claiming to be that person. Possibly worse, as claiming to be someone famous will get you accused of insanity, while claiming to be related with get you called a liar.
RP is built on people working from a shared understanding of the world. Yes, it would be nice if people were willing to accept background stories at face value - and many of them are. But there's a reason that the IGS is a cesspit of some of the worst RP you'll ever see. If I weren't such an RP addict, the IGS would have kept me away from EVE RP entirely. If you say anything on the IGS that is more detailed than "I am a capsuleer," someone is going to try to say that you're wrong.
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None of us are related to anyone PF famous, and trying to shoehorn that we are has always been met with skepticism and general ignoring, for many many years.
Every once and a while someone pops up with a famous last name, and they are generally ignored or looked at as crazy. I don't see this changing.
There's a big world out there, and plenty of stories to tell that are removed from established PF characters.
The "it's a big world" argument cuts both ways. It's just as likely as there are some people related to famous PF characters out there. Probably closer than first cousins, 9th removed. Generally speaking, no one really counts as family past second or third cousins. (This might vary with the upper tiers of the Heir's houses.) As for Seraphia, there are around 150k people that can make the same claim as her (maybe more, depending on Caldari birth rates). It is a big world.
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None of us are related to anyone PF famous, and trying to shoehorn that we are has always been met with skepticism and general ignoring, for many many years.
Every once and a while someone pops up with a famous last name, and they are generally ignored or looked at as crazy. I don't see this changing.
There's a big world out there, and plenty of stories to tell that are removed from established PF characters.
The "it's a big world" argument cuts both ways. It's just as likely as there are some people related to famous PF characters out there. Probably closer than first cousins, 9th removed. Generally speaking, no one really counts as family past second or third cousins. (This might vary with the upper tiers of the Heir's houses.) As for Seraphia, there are around 150k people that can make the same claim as her (maybe more, depending on Caldari birth rates). It is a big world.
I guess the more important question is what such a relationship gets anyone? Character or Story-wise, what does it add to anyone's story to be such a distant relative as to make it meaningless? It colors people's perceptions.
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I have to agree with Isis - Seraphia's last name isn't going to buy her any favors at all (especially since she's gone Gurista), and the relation is distant enough that I don't see the big issue.
There's a good handful of lesser Kuvakeis running around out there, last I checked, including an old Aurora character. To the best of my knowledge, not a single one of them has made the slightest bit of impact, unwelcome or otherwise, on Sansha RP.
It's a little different. Kuvakei is quite a common surname in the state. There are a number of significant Kuvakeis in PF beyond Sansha - Vorada Kuvakei of the RISE incident is an example.
From my perspective, I don't think linking your character to a known name is intrinsically wrong. The character Illoren Kainta who I've RPed with a bit and hangs around OOC from time to time is ostensibly Vorada's child, but he/she doesn't use it as an RP crutch, which makes people less inclined to call them out on it.
As opposed to Tovil-Toba using her name as an appeal to authority, which is the crux of the issue as I see it.
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As opposed to Tovil-Toba using her name as an appeal to authority, which is the crux of the issue as I see it.
This.
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As opposed to Tovil-Toba using her name as an appeal to authority, which is the crux of the issue as I see it.
Pure propaganda and can be dismissed just as easily. I would see your point if she had tried to join any StaPro corp. But she went Guri, losing any bit of credibility her name might have given her. I would also say it's fallacious to assume that simply because of a relation, any authority is passed. Shoot, look at the Fonda family. I still watch Henry Fonda's movies.
I guess the more important question is what such a relationship gets anyone? Character or Story-wise, what does it add to anyone's story to be such a distant relative as to make it meaningless? It colors people's perceptions.
Imagine joining the Marine Corps with the last name of Puller. Or the Army with the last name of Patton. Or the British Navy with the last name of Nelson. Bootcamp/OCS/Service academies are hard enough without everyone knowing who your great grand uncle or what not have you. Shit cuts deep in the military. I was once personally told by a Sergeant that my parents failed the world by not having me aborted (I know, plenty of you agree. So do I.) I would imagine it's a million times worse when your last name/relation gets thrown in your face. And no matter how well one preformed, it would.
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I have to agree with Isis - Seraphia's last name isn't going to buy her any favors at all (especially since she's gone Gurista), and the relation is distant enough that I don't see the big issue.
There's a good handful of lesser Kuvakeis running around out there, last I checked, including an old Aurora character. To the best of my knowledge, not a single one of them has made the slightest bit of impact, unwelcome or otherwise, on Sansha RP.
It's a little different. Kuvakei is quite a common surname in the state. There are a number of significant Kuvakeis in PF beyond Sansha - Vorada Kuvakei of the RISE incident is an example.
From my perspective, I don't think linking your character to a known name is intrinsically wrong. The character Illoren Kainta who I've RPed with a bit and hangs around OOC from time to time is ostensibly Vorada's child, but he/she doesn't use it as an RP crutch, which makes people less inclined to call them out on it.
As opposed to Tovil-Toba using her name as an appeal to authority, which is the crux of the issue as I see it.
you guys remember Sanchez Kuvakei from during the pre-incursion live events? :D
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In EVE the background that you create to your character is pretty much irrelevant.
The other roleplayers will react to you by how you conduct yourself and who you are affiliated with in the game.
Which pretty much means that a background serves only as a tool for the player to guide their own interaction, to think that the same tool would be something that would dictate the flavor of interaction of the other players (whom are completely unaware of your background) is a bit silly.
It might be a habit brought over from LARPing or PnP roleplaying where you actually have a RP authority that will rein in the extremes of dictating the actions of other players or of a small roleplaying group that won't mind altering the behaviour of their own characters because the players themselves have shared experiences together.
To me, RP in EVE is about shared experiences with other players, ostensible backgrounds are just things a player has created alone in their echo chamber that do not have any purpose because they are not something that has been created through sharing an experience with someone.
Writing a blog about it, or an evelopedia article does not count.
There is no time for that stuff if you meet a new person in a RP venue.