Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Ulphus on 03 May 2010, 21:02
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I must say I'm rather impresssed with the Station/System set up by Star Fraction recently. They way they say they're running the system seems to fit into my initial expectations of what they did when I first heard of them and started getting inspired to do RP in Eve. It feels like they're trying to make something and I wish them success.
The Court system offer that ChipMo has put out there is interesting, although it feels like they're trying to shoe-horn the court from "The Stone Canal" http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/m/ken-macleod/stone-canal.htm (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/m/ken-macleod/stone-canal.htm) by Ken MacLeod into Eve, and I'm not convinced it's going to work. The reason it did in TSC seemed to me to be that the price of not coming to an arrangement (even if negotiated by a third party judge) was significantly more than the price of not coming to an arrangement in Eve.
In Eve, people complain when not enough people are shooting at them!
So I'm not sure it can work, but I'll be watching the experiment with interest.
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Two comments on this -
One, having watched HTA set up our own station some weeks ago, I can prety categorically state that the "egg" SF used to put the Norlonto up was either bought prebuilt or manufactured far in advance of their claiming sovereignty in YWS0. Either possibility gives an interesting insight into strategic use of assets by Star Fraction.
About the courts - the ability of a court to deliver judgements and expect them to be acted on is also directly related to the authority invested into the court system, even within the context of EVE. This is in turn directly related to the respect given to the organization backing the court system. In ye olde days of CVA operation in Providence, the CVA-diplo channel was that court. If you had an issue, you jumped into there and hashed it out. Decisions granted by the court were expected to be followed through on, because there was respect for the authority that backed it (CVA and the allied Holders).
The new Providence, however, is a much more nebulous situation. From what I've heard, it is a mish-mash of assorted NAPs, hostilities, intel channels that allow some sov holders and ban others, and generally rather more chaotic. While it has settled out some since the sov grabbing ended and the political landscape has started to come into form, it still remains to be seen whether people will respect the authority of a court which, unlike CVA's, or even U'K/-A-'s diplo channels, is not backed by a massive, overwhelming force in the region, but merely by claims of fairness in judgement.
Not saying ChipMo's got a bad idea; more that we EVE players, and nulseccers in particular (IMO at least) tend to be a spectacularly distrustful bunch.
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SF has been given an earfull about just destroying and never doing anything constructive. This is indeed an interesting time to see the endless pages of Freespace probaganda do or die in space.(although i have no doubt there are numerous ways to RP out of utter failure) :lol: I truely think this is a good RP development, and look forward to see what implications it'll have both IC and OOC.
About the CCCNP it really is an experiment. It wont have anymore authority than what those who choose to involve themselves with it chooses to give it, whitch was the intention all along.
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the chipmo thing is unrelated.
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The deployment of the outpost as I commented on chatsubo was one of the first real tangible achievements the alliance has made in the past 6 years. I for one congratulate them for it.
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I'll be watching this development with interest. Almost like the intaki self-run stations.
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while i have doubts that it will work for any longer period of time (hopefully wrong on that thoough ;)) better to have tried and failed than never have tried at all.
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It will be interesting to see how things pan out.
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I was going to criticise them for naming it Norlonto, which I believe is an abbreviation of North London Town.
But then I remembered Inflatable House...
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I love it.
Years of IC pressure of "you can't do anything constructive" has convinced them to do something like this. Of course, that's how Merdaneth thinks about it. To have a revolutionary unit tie themselves down to a part of space and start to try and govern (the FreeSpace way) is a small cultural victory to Merdaneth.
It will be very interesting to see the developments, and Merdaneth will be pushing and questioning the process all the way of course.
I consider shifts in the landscape good to generate interesting play. CVA losing Provi is a good opportunity of new kinds of play (and conflicts) to emerge.
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Years of IC pressure of "you can't do anything constructive" has convinced them to do something like this.
nope
To have a revolutionary unit tie themselves down to a part of space and start to try and govern
nope
Almost like the intaki self-run stations.
yes
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Toma, would you like to expand on that a little bit?
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nope
Toma, you cannot argue with Merdaneth on an OOC forum.
As for myself, I honestly don't have a clue if anything affected your decisions OOC, and I don't really care. It really doesn't matter for Merdaneth's vision.
As a player I'm happy with it because it changes the landscape and generates new RP possibilities.
I don't see what purpose your responses of 'nopes' here are trying to achieve. To me it seems you want to deny Toma the character being affected by Merdaneth the character or want to attack Merdaneth's idea that he has scored a cultural victory. I don't really see how you want to achieve by talking to me OOC. Care to explain?
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While I don't think Toma should do it, I'll elaborate a bit for him.
To the first 'nope': If anyone thinks that outside pressure makes us do, well, much of anything, they're wrong. Especially if they think it makes us throw 30+ billion isk into a static asset that was put up mostly on a whim from a small group of SF's membership. Sort of how we do things. Which segues into the next point...
It doesn't hold us down at all, and to claim as much is rather amusing. We're also not governing anything or anyone. We don't own YWS0-Z. We just handle the CONCORD administrative fees (bribes). The presence of the outpost in the system won't affect our campaigning strategy and plans.
Though I think this has a much better place in an IC forum than here, and I hope I've not misconstrued Toma's thoughts.
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[admin]Toma: Flippant, one word replies smack of trolling. Please stop.Merdaneth: Flippant, one word replies don't warrant assumptions that people are posting ICly on an OOC board. Please stop.To All: I don't care how you view and treat other forums, this is not a place to extend your IC IGS political squabbling. Don't.[/admin]
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Havo, it was stupid of me to refer to Merdaneth's perception of the issue in the first place. I knew this could be a touchy subject and should avoided it in the first place.
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Havo, I had not intending to troll. I am a bit confused on what is IC and what is not IC in Merdaneth's couple of posts here. Especially considering the reply. I actually though that in the first post Merdaneth trying to take credit in some way. He hasn’t had any involvement IC or OOC in anyway with anything.
I seem to be confused on what was said. I apologize and I will clarify.
Merdaneth has zero impact on any operation actions that I have been involved with. And I would know as I am leadership and majorly involved in all operations and I have been involved in all of them for about 8 or 9 months.
Silver, Koronkesh hit the nail on the head. realistically I will not provide specific planning information due to this being a popular public forum. There isn't anything more than I can say except that the assertions made were wrong. Sorry if I came off as abrupt. I really was just making a clear clarification for statement of fallacy that I did not was to be misinterpreted.
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The "years of pressure of you never do anything constructive" thing - that's not something only Merdaneth says. A LOT of people say it. So much so that internally there was a running joke of "We're not here to build empires, we're here to tear them down." I remember this from my 3 months in SF... I'm sure you remember it.
I also saw someone make a post in jest (I think it was Cosmo, but I couldn't find the post so I may be wrong). Anyway, the post was something to the effect of "People keep saying we can't do anything constructive, so we figured we'd give it a shot :p"
I don't think Merd was trying to take personal credit for talking SF into making an outpost.
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those people are mistaken.
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"You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system! I grow tired of asking this so it will be the last time: *Where* is the rebel base?"
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those people are mistaken.
[mod]Could you elaborate rather than simply dismissing them? [/mod]
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I am gonna put my continued backstage career on the line and repost what I said earlier, but which was deemed hostile and I was 'formally warned' about...
(reworded, and to those that have choosen to take issue with Merdaneths post)
unsurprizing and quite resonable that Merdaneth would take that position guys. Well thought out Merdaneth. Im sure when that is presented on IGS that it shall generate alot of replys and RP.
...
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Look Toma, I really haven't got a clue if I've influenced you in that way. It doesn't really matter. Merdaneth sees continual challenges to the SF dogma, and he sees SF change. He simply thinks of it as cause and effect. It could be all internal or even planned before Merdaneth ever arrived on the scene. I don't know, I can't look into the heads of other character, let alone the people playing them. It is completely up to you to decide if Toma has been affected. I'm not trying to influence you the player, I'm trying to influence your character.
There seems to be an awfully big sentiment around between all the struggling factions of "you didn't influence me", "you are not relevant", "we caused corp X to leave FW" etc.
It seems that non-consensually affecting your opponent is (both IC and OOC) something horrible if it is done to you, and a great victory if you do it to someone else. I don't think it should be that way OOC, I think that style is unhealthy for play, I think we should be very happy that we are influencing each other OOC! The interplay between our characters is a combined effort, even if it is not always consensual.
Therefore, I wondered what your purpose was to explicitly take the time on an OOC forum to deny any influence. It seemed to me some OOC version of "You don't scare me, you are irrelevant to my play!"
I get the odd OOC mail from opponents describing me as sad, being a nobody and having no relevance at all. You don't need a Psychology degree to figure out that if people mail you personally to bitterly tell you that you aren't affecting them are more trying to convince themselves rather than get a point across.
Moderators, perhaps this is a good point to split the thread since we are moving away from the YWS0 debate?
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Well, don't know about any quotes attributed to me (not one I recall posting) but leaving that aside, I think I will say a few words.
First, Merdaneth's suggestion that years of IC pressure have induced the Star Fraction to build an outpost.
Can be dealt with both IC and OOC.
IC, I don't believe the characters that are the Freecaptains of the Star Fraction feel themselves in any way pressurized into building TAZ Norlonto. For them, it is simply a project that is enabled by the circumstances. They have many times contemplated such a project and even gone so far as to plan similar. It is simply that the opportune moment came now and not before.
OOC, I can honestly say that while it is true that people have many times said 'What have you ever built?' or words to that effect, it was not really a consideration in the minds of those planning this effort as an act of players in the game of EVE. It really mirrors what I think the IC reasons are: circumstance and opportunity. The main OOC factors are two-fold: 1) The game state in Providence region. 2) Sov 2.
In my view, the second is the more important factor. Ultimately, who knows when, who knows how, we may lose this outpost. But looking around the game it is quite clear that the opportunities for outfits like SF to have an outpost are quite wide. The amount of unclaimed systems in EVE is the highest I have seen it since Sov 1 reached its, so to say, maturity.
The reasons for this are not obscure and this is the wisdom of the Sov 2 design: it costs to needlessly and thoughtlessly gobble up every system in sight.
Sov 2 is not perfect by any means though and I look forward to future developments. Treaties or leases are something that I think would be useful and beneficial. If we could let others access the 25% POS fuel bonus for some reasonable fee (let us say... 5% fuel equivalent making for a still highly desirable 20% saving for the POS operator?) then we would surely do so.
But I want to briefly and without heat refer to Grr's remarks:
The deployment of the outpost as I commented on chatsubo was one of the first real tangible achievements the alliance has made in the past 6 years. I for one congratulate them for it.
I won't be a surprise to anyone that I rather differ with this claim. I also, if I may say so, think it is a problematic claim to make in the context of roleplay organisations.
The fact is that most self-described roleplay corps and alliances have not built outposts to date. To be sure some of the bigger ones have but let's be honest it hasn't happened a lot. (Though I think it could well increasingly happen in future.) The problem with the remark is not difficult to see: it seems to imply that building an outpost is when a corp or alliance achieves something real and tangible in EVE.
I don't even agree with that for non-RP corps/alliances in EVE. I think it is... well, I won't say what I think it is for RP corps/alliances: you get the idea.
EVE is a game where there are many achievements, real and tangible, to be made throughout the history of a corporation or alliance. You don't need to build outposts (or Titans) to have made real and tangible achievements in EVE.
I don't think Grr meant any real disrespect but I think the claim is, well, not in accordance with my vision of the great game of EVE and the many and various ways in which it may be played.
Cosmo
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IC, I don't believe the characters that are the Freecaptains of the Star Fraction feel themselves in any way pressurized into building TAZ Norlonto. For them, it is simply a project that is enabled by the circumstances. They have many times contemplated such a project and even go so far as to plan similar. It is simply that the opportune moment came now and not before.
I don't believe that is relevant. What the Cosmopolite thinks and Merdaneth thinks is obviously wildly different. The Cosmopolite believes in a future without governments dictating how people should act, Merdaneth believes in the opposite. Hence discussing on an OOC forum if one is wrong or right about such IC beliefs serves no purpose I can think of.
OOC, I can honestly say that while it is true that people have many times said 'What have you ever built?' or words to that effect, it was not really a consideration in the minds of those planning this effort as an act of players in the game of EVE. It really mirrors what I think the IC reasons are: circumstance and opportunity. The main OOC factors are two-fold: 1) The game state in Providence region. 2) Sov 2.
OOC I don't know and I don't really want to know. I know from my own experience that considerations between OOC friends and internal corp and alliance relationships and debates are way more important to determining direction and decisions than external pressure. Most corp simply fold or split out of boredom.
I don't think Grr meant any real disrespect but I think the claim is, well, not in accordance with my vision of the great game of EVE and the many and various ways in which it may be played.
Agreed. Grr's OOC remark seemed well-intended, but there are many ways to achieve great things. An Outpost isn't neccessarily the hallmark of achievement. An daring GHSC heist could be just as great but mining dutifully for years and allowing others to build great fleets and outposts might be just as great (although unrecognized and unsung a deed).
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[admin]Suggesting that a person is a troublemaker and all threads they're involved in will turn to shit is a no-no. Suggesting an entire alliance is full of troublemakers and any thread they're involved in will turn to shit is right out.Post and replies to it removed.[/admin]
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I have for years thought about visiting Providence, but it just never happened due to priorities. From an OoC view, I am rather pleased that there is at least one (more would be better :)) place out in no sec space that practice "open house" and NRDS policies still, so I still have the point on my "to do"-list.
But what I know about SF project(s) in Providence OoC and if this information is correct or not matters absolutely nothing in regard to the opinions of my characters in regard to the same situation. People do not need any true facts in our world to make opinions about a thousand things, even take dramatical actions based on no correct information at all, so why should people in New Eden be any different?
From my multiple characters; one believes SF is criminal organization and all members should be locked away for good, another has no thought on SF as her empathy is on the non-capsuleer population, a third thinks SF is an interested social experiment and a fourth think a little anarchy is great and that the established order needs to be shaken up a bit.
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IC, I don't believe the characters that are the Freecaptains of the Star Fraction feel themselves in any way pressurized into building TAZ Norlonto. For them, it is simply a project that is enabled by the circumstances. They have many times contemplated such a project and even go so far as to plan similar. It is simply that the opportune moment came now and not before.
I don't believe that is relevant. What the Cosmopolite thinks and Merdaneth thinks is obviously wildly different. The Cosmopolite believes in a future without governments dictating how people should act, Merdaneth believes in the opposite. Hence discussing on an OOC forum if one is wrong or right about such IC beliefs serves no purpose I can think of.
For that matter, if you're going to take that line then I am not sure what purpose telling us what Merdaneth thinks serves on this forum.
If we're not supposed to respond then there is no conversation and the remarks seem a bit pointless.
However, I chose to respond and in some ways whether you find it relevant or not doesn't really matter.
I'm happy to have a forum conversation about anything myself or SF do in EVE. Whether my remarks are relevant or not is up to each reader to decide.
I would note that I have not said anyone is 'wrong', rather I have said what I believe the Freecaptains of the Star Fraction, as characters, feel about the matter. Which is no more or less than what you did with regards to Merdaneth the character.
I have difficulty seeing that as a controversial way to respond.
Anyway, the experiment of TAZ Norlonto has only just begun and nobody knows where it is leading. Which is what makes it so entertaining for us and, hopefully, for others.
Cosmo
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I wish you good luck with that. Can be very wicked.
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For that matter, if you're going to take that line then I am not sure what purpose telling us what Merdaneth thinks serves on this forum.
Sometimes I like to share something. Like telling how my characters are thinking. I don't share it for the purpose of having people challenge Merdaneth's vision because as I said, that is rather pointless. One can still talk about it though.
If we're not supposed to respond then there is no conversation and the remarks seem a bit pointless.
There are other responses possible than a challenge or argument. I considered the response 'nope' quite unproductive. Did you consider it otherwise?
I would note that I have not said anyone is 'wrong', rather I have said what I believe the Freecaptains of the Star Fraction, as characters, feel about the matter. Which is no more or less than what you did with regards to Merdaneth the character.
Which was interesting, and I would like to hear more about it IC if I knew how to get the information IC.
Anyway, the experiment of TAZ Norlonto has only just begun and nobody knows where it is leading. Which is what makes it so entertaining for us and, hopefully, for others.
It *is* entertaining. Although as I said before, I made the mistake of stating Merdaneth thinks SF has been influenced by this decision. It is my experiencing that influencing people is a touchy subject OOC and I should have known better.
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EVE is a game where there are many achievements, real and tangible, to be made throughout the history of a corporation or alliance. You don't need to build outposts (or Titans) to have made real and tangible achievements in EVE.
I would suggest you're half-right on this statement. I would suggest you need to build something object-oriented (creating a trading hub, building a sovereignty, building a titan, etc) in order for it to be tangible, but something being real does not require it to be tangible.
I think what Grr was trying to say (and (s)he can correct me) was that this Outpost is the first really tangible thing that SF has accomplished. Not that it's the first "real and" tangible thing that SF has accomplished. I think that it's pretty evident when one looks over the history of EVE that SF has accomplished a very large number of very real goals, but this is really the first tangible one that I am aware of.
That does not, mind, make the previous accomplishments less valuable, simply because they are intangibles.
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If we're not supposed to respond then there is no conversation and the remarks seem a bit pointless.
There are other responses possible than a challenge or argument. I considered the response 'nope' quite unproductive. Did you consider it otherwise?
Given I didn't say 'nope' and given I responded not with a challenge or an argument but rather with information on another IC perspective and with an ancillary OOC perspective, I would have thought the answer is evident.
As to Lillith on 'tangible' relating to 'object-oriented' achievements, I don't altogether agree actually.
But I think this leads us to questions of interpretation and definition. I do agree that Grr was speaking reasonably if, in my arguable view, a little loosely and questionably.
I would note that as SF has a publicly-confirmed titan (and alliance members were intimately involved in the build logistics of that titan, though I personally don't see direct involvement in the build as necessary to the achievement of acquiring a titan) even on Lillith's working definition the outpost is not the first.
The thing about EVE that is so important (even if at times CCP neglect it a little) is that any alliance, corp, or for that matter individual pilot can achieve great things...
...and if anything it is through roleplay that the greatest of achievements can be attained.
If that were not so, personally I wouldn't have played this game for nigh on 6 years.
Cosmo
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EVE is a game where there are many achievements, real and tangible, to be made throughout the history of a corporation or alliance. You don't need to build outposts (or Titans) to have made real and tangible achievements in EVE.
I would suggest you're half-right on this statement. I would suggest you need to build something object-oriented (creating a trading hub, building a sovereignty, building a titan, etc) in order for it to be tangible, but something being real does not require it to be tangible.
I think what Grr was trying to say (and (s)he can correct me) was that this Outpost is the first really tangible thing that SF has accomplished. Not that it's the first "real and" tangible thing that SF has accomplished. I think that it's pretty evident when one looks over the history of EVE that SF has accomplished a very large number of very real goals, but this is really the first tangible one that I am aware of.
That does not, mind, make the previous accomplishments less valuable, simply because they are intangibles.
Spot on. None of Star Fractions past intangible achievements (whatever they are) are any less valuable im sure. No disrespect is intended at all.
Incidently is there a list of them somewhere that can be read? I mean a real list not the spin on IGS of course. I'd be very interested in reading some facts about SF.
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Dear lord, there's a question.
I hope people won't be too disappointed that (despite all that may be said about our ruthless self-promotion ;) ) we don't have a ready list to hand of our glories.
I'll maybe think about that but I'd not want to engage in too much trumpet-blowing.
I can think of several but putting them into words is another matter. (I also suspect that inevitably some will be open to contest despite the best efforts at avoiding spin.)
Cosmo
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Cosmo... [mod]snip[/mod] can put together such a list [mod]snip[/mod] And I would actually be very curious to see it as well. Right now, it's so easy to take the achievements and go 'meh, probably overdone and overhyped'.
(This isn't critique, you know as well as I do that this is simple appearance issues, no more.)
[mod]Please no inferred slurs[/mod]
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As to Lillith on 'tangible' relating to 'object-oriented' achievements, I don't altogether agree actually.
I'm pretty sure, though, that that's the definition of "tangible". ;)
I would note that as SF has a publicly-confirmed titan (and alliance members were intimately involved in the build logistics of that titan, though I personally don't see direct involvement in the build as necessary to the achievement of acquiring a titan) even on Lillith's working definition the outpost is not the first.
Ahh. I did not know that, then this would make the outpost clearly the second tangible thing. Impressive on both counts, good work guys. :)
The thing about EVE that is so important (even if at times CCP neglect it a little) is that any alliance, corp, or for that matter individual pilot can achieve great things...
...and if anything it is through roleplay that the greatest of achievements can be attained.
I agree with this. SF has done a lot -- both things that I personally would feel are good, and also a number of things I think were poor form, but accomplishment is accomplishment! :) I was not aware of the Titan (I've been gone for a year so cut me some slack, hehe), but the Outpost I thought was pretty cool.
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New toys are always a good thing, best of luck with this and any other infrastructure plans!