Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Louella Dougans on 09 Aug 2012, 11:10
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I believe there is a substantial difference in how characters are treated based on their gender.
Amarr Religious types, if they are female, I believe have a considerably easier time of things than Male Amarr religious people.
Examples would include the female Holder that mentions her estates, servants and such. People make polite conversation with her.
the male Holder, gets accused of all sorts.
An extreme example would be the handful of EoM people.
The female EoM pilot, people say "oh hello, how is your day" and other polite conversations.
The male EoM pilot, there is a lot more "Oh, it's the death cultist. Burn anyone today?" and so on.
Blood raiders, too, but there appears to be like, no male blood raiders. At All. what gives there?
This is not a phenomenon that is confined to Amarr religious types. I have observed it in other situations.
So, to me, it looks like if you want to create a char to explore a controversial thing, you'd have a far easier time of it if the char is female.
So, have you seen this?
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One million percent yes.
I started up a female alt(Quite a long time ago) and in comparison to my male alts and Logan it's not only ridiculously easy to get some form of interaction with her in comparison with all the male alts. The RP through her is also much better because of the level of what I would call 'buy-in' that happens when she came online. People would convo her, invite her to go and do things, join channels, party, etc.
I thought for a while that it was because I was spending more time on the female alt actively trying to RP than I was on Logan so I put her away and refocused on Logan, putting him in same/similar situations that generated RP for her, and got nothing, or at least next to nothing.
I wonder a bit about the state of RP in this manner though, where Men are less likely to talk to one another than if a woman walks into the room (hey look it's the opposite of real life nerds). I am pretty guilty of this as well, but am working towards being better engaging with other men in conversations and making the effort so to speak. Like it is rare for Logan to know another man in some other corp that he's not flown with before, but to be on a first name basis with women he flies against, or could fly against if I ever undocked. :bear:
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I try not to engage in this, as I try to engage every character the same way regardless of their gender - I'm more interested in how they portray themselves, how they interact and so on.
I've also never played a female character so I don't know if it's easier or not. I can really only attest that trying to play a male Amarr religious character has proven very difficult on a social level.
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I try not to engage in this, as I try to engage every character the same way regardless of their gender - I'm more interested in how they portray themselves, how they interact and so on.
I've also never played a female character so I don't know if it's easier or not. I can really only attest that trying to play a male Amarr religious character has proven very difficult on a social level.
Were eve 'real' this would be much easier as there are far, far, far more religious male amarr than any other race, with the Empire being the most populated of the four by a large %. There is a dearth of Amarr males in RP-world but in the fictional world you'd have plenty of company.
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I do find it curious how well Red gets along with most people, as I've been trying to get her to rub certain people the wrong way in an attempt to stay IC. I'm not sure if I'm playing the "Gallente Female" role extremely well (work hard/play hard, infectious zest for life, etc.), or if, you know... she's a redhead with a great rack.
I like to flatter myself and think it's both >.>;
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In a game environment dominated by males, It's hard to be surprised by a surplus of lesbians and special treatment for females. Plus, I think there is a bit of a social stigma with males, in that they are not allowed to express their full range of emotions (like vulnerability) without being perceived as weakness.
I should make a male character just for the challenge.
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(M)any (M)en (O)nline (R)ole (P)laying (G)irls
EVE is no different
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In general, I
go out of my way prefer to interact with women (character or real world) over men. I can pick from a plethora of reasons, but I simply find it much more mentally engaging.
Edit ; Slight changing of wording, as the context was a bit off.
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I know it exists, but I haven't noticed the effect in EVE quite as much as I have in some other games.
This might be in part because my main character can pass for male fairly well?
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I know it exists, but I haven't noticed the effect in EVE quite as much as I have in some other games.
This might be in part because my main character can pass for male fairly well?
I confess to thinking Jev was a male for the longest time. >.>
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In general, I go out of my way to interact with women (character or real world) over men. I can pick from a plethora of reasons, but I simply find it much more mentally engaging.
This. It's also why I prefer to use a female character for RPing.
Will probably respond in more detail later, have to wrap up some stuff here at work so I can go home. /o\
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In a game environment dominated by males, It's hard to be surprised by a surplus of lesbians and special treatment for females. Plus, I think there is a bit of a social stigma with males, in that they are not allowed to express their full range of emotions (like vulnerability) without being perceived as weakness.
I should make a male character just for the challenge.
The gender stereotypes and accompanying labels that aim to push people back into the traditionally ascribed roles cuts both ways. If a woman comes across as 'strong' or 'emotionally distant' they are b****es.
See the current "not impressed" memes about McKayla Maroney floating around.
If it's a male athlete being broodsome and angsty after placing 2nd, you'd probably hear something along the lines of "that's the mark of an exceptional competitor, they never give themselves a break. Always clawing, always striving for that next ledge, pushing themselves just a little further all the time." But for a woman to do the same results in being called 'snobby', a 'brat' or a 'diva'.
Also, just heard this on the radio yesterday:
http://www.npr.org/2012/08/08/158433079/virtual-harassment-gets-real-for-female-gamers
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she's a redhead with a great rack
its why gender makes a difference :oops:
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I don't know. I have always had 100 times more success with male avatars than female avatars, except maybe on eve (but I have never played a male avatar on eve). Ok, especially with female players that loved one of my male character on another game, but also male players (so I guess it was more universal ? I hope...).
On another hand, people sure have been more... polite or courteous with Lyn as a female than if she had been a male. But that's pretty much it : courtesy. Nothing more really. She suffers of the same considerations from other characters than male characters when she deals with controversial things.
There was also the case of Elizabeth Vea. The lynching she had to face looks like any gender would have faced the same thing.
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I'm not sure if I'm playing the "Gallente Female" role extremely well (work hard/play hard, infectious zest for life, etc.), or if, you know... she's a redhead with a great rack.
Competition eh..? :3
I do actually agree with this. More than a year ago, I started up a female khanid alt who wished independence from the Empire. Nobody batted an eyelid, and in fact quite a few people seemed rather keen to help. If it had been a male character, I expect there would have been rather more cries of 'heretic!' :P
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To be honest, I dont know?
Ava seems to have plenty of people willing to rip into her, and she rips into people (Meiyi and Sanguina come to mind) whether theyre men or women if she thinks theyre tards.
Of course, people give me a lot of stuff; is this because they know I am a woman IRL?
I clicked "i dont know" because I seriously dont know?
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I actually haven't gotten this impression at all. In my years of playing Katla, she's been addressed or described in such words as "cold-hearted bitch" (of course), "coward" (well, she won't protest that one), "race traitor" (as though she ever swore an oath of loyalty to her race in the first place), "CONCORD fairy" (whatever 'fairy' means in Syndicate Pikey), "Captain Cardboard" (I used this as an MSN nick for a while), "toaster" (well, naturally) and simply "creature" (used as an address - a favorite of mine). She's also been accused of crimes against nature. And those are just the ones I remember. She's provoked positive reactions from people as well, of course, but I wouldn't say they outweigh the negative ones.
Ruby is more well-liked, but she's gotten her share of condemnation, too, and been denounced as "evil" on several occasions.
And I've seen my fair share of male characters who seem to have no trouble getting positive IC interaction wherever they go. Jude Kopenhagen comes to mind as an example.
One possible explanation for this perception could be that a huge chunk of EVE roleplay (in my experience) traditionally happens in a bar environment, between strangers or casual acquaintances. That's a setting that lends itself naturally well to interaction between genders, or at least along lines of sexual compatibility.
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And I've seen my fair share of male characters who seem to have no trouble getting positive IC interaction wherever they go. Jude Kopenhagen comes to mind as an example.
wat
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Tasha Ayanara is another recent example in favor of the argument that playing a female character does not protect you from IC shitstorms over whatever controversial issues you're fronting: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=139086&find=unread
Diana Kim would count as another, I'd say. And historically, both Jade Constantine and Revan Neferis are examples of female characters who've provoked a lot of vitriol from other characters. There are many others, too.
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Nat,
I think the issue is more that female characters are receive a better welcome initially (at first glance, so to speak). In general people seem to be more responsive and kind to female characters until that character proves to be more provocative and irritating.
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Yeah, there is a big difference. In my experience, it wasn't as huge in Eve - but that may be because it was fairly commonly known that I was a male player behind a female character. However, in instances where it hasn't been clear, the differences have been startling. My female blood elf rogue gets treated VASTLY differently from my male characters.
In short, all the stereotypes and legends are true, eg. a female avatar gets free stuff, makes friends far easier and receives offers - veiled, indirect and joking - for cyber.
I don't think the reasons for different treatment stem from RP or the IC dimension, but the OOC level of omgagirl. It's not really all that different from RL, except the barrier to approach is far lower and every girl is potentially the girl of your dreams when your imagination calls the shots.
It's a little absurd, quite funny and just the way things are, apparently.
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There was also the case of Elizabeth Vea. The lynching she had to face looks like any gender would have faced the same thing.
Without going into too many details, I feel this needs to be clarified: that so-called "lynching" was earned entirely through Vea's own hard work and effort, and every bit of the response was deserved. She had many opportunities to change her behavior, and pretty much declined them all.
Tasha Ayanara is another recent example in favor of the argument that playing a female character does not protect you from IC shitstorms over whatever controversial issues you're fronting: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=139086&find=unread
With Tasha having turned out to be one of Vea's myriad alts, this result really wasn't too much of a surprise in retrospect. :s
I think a language barrier is partly to blame for Diana's case. That said, I would happily slap the character with a brick IRL if they tried arguing with me the way they do it on the IGS, perfect English or no. :bash:
Not going to touch the examples of Revan and Jade, primarily because that's mostly old(er than me) history. :P
Anyway, I said I'd go into more detail earlier:
I prefer to use female characters for RP because I find it a more engaging experience for me. I'm not sure whether it causes a difference in the amount of interaction I get; I can personally state that the reason Morwen tends to shy away from talking to (most) guys is due to the fact that the attitudes just aren't appealing to interact with. There's only so many ways a conversation can go when one side is constantly trying to show off how big his dick is or get laid, which seems to be the prevailing attitude among male characters in EVE that I've witnessed. (That's not to say that it's the only attitude, or that female characters don't exhibit it either, of course, but Morwen's oft-repeated claim that the multitude of bi/lesbian capsuleers is due to the lack of a decent selection of men isn't pulled out of her ass, contrary to the belief of some. ;))
I've personally steered away from RPing a male character as well because I just don't enjoy it - it's 'different' to me in the wrong ways, whereas RPing a character like Morwen is 'different' in the right ones. It's a little hard to explain.
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I don't notice a difference (When I play either). I usually only RP a male in any game, I think it mostly has to do with the personality of the character. Female characters tend to act differently then male one, so in the end its what the person is comfortable with. When I make IC interactions with John, male, or female they are treated the same respect.. well depending if he can take them seriously or not.
vOv
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I have a theory - it's pulled from ass-space, so make of it what you will.
In most MMORPGs, the women are mostly played by men. And men usually RP women because they're not interested in 'stereotypically male' behavior. Women are allowed to have a greater emotional range and aren't immediately tossed into a more-badass-than-thou competition.
And it becomes a cycle of sorts. If you're a guy and you want to play someone who's friendly or someone who doesn't irritate others, you feel it's easier to play a woman. People get used to women being the friendlier characters, so they treat them nicer and are more tolerant of them.
Though I do think the original post overstates the case. There are a few Amarr women who come into the Summit, demand people call them Lady, and almost always end up in a fight about something or another.
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I'm told, by some male friends who play female characters in other, avatar-based MMOs, that their choice was motivated by the desire to have something pleasant to look at if they were going to be spending that many hours watching its rear view.
This might not have anything to do with choices in EVE, where you're as likely to be looking at the rear view of a Drake...
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There was also the case of Elizabeth Vea. The lynching she had to face looks like any gender would have faced the same thing.
Without going into too many details, I feel this needs to be clarified: that so-called "lynching" was earned entirely through Vea's own hard work and effort, and every bit of the response was deserved. She had many opportunities to change her behavior, and pretty much declined them all.
Well yes, I never said the contrary. IC consequences and all that. It was just an example. But I could very well take Lyn instead, a lot of people want to slap her as soon as she opens her mouth.
Of course, it has only been true for the last year or so since it was quite different before. People actually found her interesting, clever, and endearing, with a few exceptions. Maybe because she started to aggro the Amarr bloc in the first place, so people liked it ? But no, I think it was more tied to the fact that she mostly dealt with people with few friends, relations, or not very famous in the community. Recently she has started arguing with people that are more appreciated or have strong ties in the community, and the result is totally different. Where she was seen as intelligent and fresh before, she is now seen as the lecturing ass of the IGS.
I think a language barrier is partly to blame for Diana's case. That said, I would happily slap the character with a brick IRL if they tried arguing with me the way they do it on the IGS, perfect English or no. :bash:
You might have put the finger on something. I have a hard time sometimes to be more diplomatic than I already am, OOCly or ICly, and it might well be because of that. Sometimes you just can't find another way to say things, or you just do not "hear" it the same way a native would. This may also be why I quite like Diana's character. Well, I wouldnt like her OOCly ofc, but the character in itself is quite good in her own way.
( I usually have more trouble with constantly whining characters... but nobody likes whiny emo characters, be it in a novel or ICly, they are annoying as hell)
I prefer to use female characters for RP because I find it a more engaging experience for me. I'm not sure whether it causes a difference in the amount of interaction I get; I can personally state that the reason Morwen tends to shy away from talking to (most) guys is due to the fact that the attitudes just aren't appealing to interact with. There's only so many ways a conversation can go when one side is constantly trying to show off how big his dick is or get laid, which seems to be the prevailing attitude among male characters in EVE that I've witnessed. (That's not to say that it's the only attitude, or that female characters don't exhibit it either, of course, but Morwen's oft-repeated claim that the multitude of bi/lesbian capsuleers is due to the lack of a decent selection of men isn't pulled out of her ass, contrary to the belief of some. ;))
I've personally steered away from RPing a male character as well because I just don't enjoy it - it's 'different' to me in the wrong ways, whereas RPing a character like Morwen is 'different' in the right ones. It's a little hard to explain.
I think I couldnt either play a male character in eve. Maybe because I do not feel like playing male characters in very realistic settings (I mean, unlike adventures, great sagas and the likes where playing males suddenly becomes a lot more interesting for me).
I can agree that a good part of the male characters are dicks, but I still think it is overexagerated to say that all of them are. As I already said, a good part of female characters are just whores or phantasms directly coming out of nerd fantasies, but nothing really sounding like a real girl. And a lot of them also are male disguised in females, meaning females litterally behaving like males.
Also, I know quite a lot of male characters that do not fit to your description.
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Well yes, I never said the contrary. IC consequences and all that. It was just an example. But I could very well take Lyn instead, a lot of people want to slap her as soon as she opens her mouth.
Of course, it has only been true for the last year or so since it was quite different before. People actually found her interesting, clever, and endearing, with a few exceptions. Maybe because she started to aggro the Amarr bloc in the first place, so people liked it ? But no, I think it was more tied to the fact that she mostly dealt with people with few friends, relations, or not very famous in the community. Recently she has started arguing with people that are more appreciated or have strong ties in the community, and the result is totally different. Where she was seen as intelligent and fresh before, she is now seen as the lecturing ass of the IGS.
Personally, I find that the issue most people take with Lyn isn't whom she's arguing with but what she's arguing about and how she goes about arguing. To put it simply, she seems to find anything she can argue about and argue it with anyone at any time about any subject and seems to ignore the responses of whom she's arguing with our completely take them out of context in order to keep arguing them.
Please don't take this is an attack on you or your character, it's merely my perception and why my characters have personally stopped talking to her in the past.
I can agree that a good part of the male characters are dicks, but I still think it is overexagerated to say that all of them are. As I already said, a good part of female characters are just whores or phantasms directly coming out of nerd fantasies, but nothing really sounding like a real girl. And a lot of them also are male disguised in females, meaning females litterally behaving like males.
Also, I know quite a lot of male characters that do not fit to your description.
Just to clarify, Morwen didn't say "all of them were dicks," she said "a good majority" of them, which you agreed with.
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Well yes, I never said the contrary. IC consequences and all that. It was just an example. But I could very well take Lyn instead, a lot of people want to slap her as soon as she opens her mouth.
Of course, it has only been true for the last year or so since it was quite different before. People actually found her interesting, clever, and endearing, with a few exceptions. Maybe because she started to aggro the Amarr bloc in the first place, so people liked it ? But no, I think it was more tied to the fact that she mostly dealt with people with few friends, relations, or not very famous in the community. Recently she has started arguing with people that are more appreciated or have strong ties in the community, and the result is totally different. Where she was seen as intelligent and fresh before, she is now seen as the lecturing ass of the IGS.
Personally, I find that the issue most people take with Lyn isn't whom she's arguing with but what she's arguing about and how she goes about arguing. To put it simply, she seems to find anything she can argue about and argue it with anyone at any time about any subject and seems to ignore the responses of whom she's arguing with our completely take them out of context in order to keep arguing them.
Please don't take this is an attack on you or your character, it's merely my perception and why my characters have personally stopped talking to her in the past.
Well, it may be an OOC issue then. I do not even understand why OOCly. But this is not the thread to speak about it anyway.
I can agree that a good part of the male characters are dicks, but I still think it is overexagerated to say that all of them are. As I already said, a good part of female characters are just whores or phantasms directly coming out of nerd fantasies, but nothing really sounding like a real girl. And a lot of them also are male disguised in females, meaning females litterally behaving like males.
Also, I know quite a lot of male characters that do not fit to your description.
Just to clarify, Morwen didn't say "all of them were dicks," she said "a good majority" of them, which you agreed with.
Yes indeed, and this is why I don't understand why talking to women is somehow better than men considering female characters suffer from the same amount of issues than male characters.
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I have a theory - it's pulled from ass-space, so make of it what you will.
In most MMORPGs, the women are mostly played by men. And men usually RP women because they're not interested in 'stereotypically male' behavior. Women are allowed to have a greater emotional range and aren't immediately tossed into a more-badass-than-thou competition.
And it becomes a cycle of sorts. If you're a guy and you want to play someone who's friendly or someone who doesn't irritate others, you feel it's easier to play a woman. People get used to women being the friendlier characters, so they treat them nicer and are more tolerant of them.
Though I think your theory ignores the primary fact that men just treat women/girls differently (and even perceived females, as the case here may be), with a lot of supplicating behavior in order to earn approval, I think there's something to your theory in regards as to why there's plenty men playing female characters so there could be some of that going on as well, certainly.
My thinking on that says there's two behavioral things going on:
The first is in accords with archetypal behavior: to be "cool" a male has to act a certain way, while a female can act another way and still be "cool", and most folks want their characters to be "cool". That's not to say it's impossible to be cool in another way, just that it is usually more difficult and requires originality along with good execution.
The second is the players just wanting to play with different gender roles, the traits in relevance of which you elaborated.
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To be honest I don't think it is the same for a majority of people, but I tend to consider characters the same way an author does. I do not care at all if it is a male or female, I just choose to play one or the other depending on what I want to do and what I have in mind.
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I've given away free stuff to both male and female characters and players but that's more a case of me having enough assets that I'm comfortable giving things away if I'm in a generous or charitable mood, or if they happen to be a corpmate in need. I tend to be more ambivalent towards providing handouts to female characters/players unless I know them in most cases because I don't want to give the impression I'm being generous due to tits. This also becomes a factor when I'm playing a male character and want to interact with a female character and I actually have to consider how not to give the impression that I'm only doing so because boobs are involved. I think I've curtailed a lot of RP on my end due to being self-conscious of the fact that in playing a male character a difficulty exists in trying to break out of perceptions of only being in it to get laid when approaching females.
I've only very recently attempted to play female characters because I have never attempted it before and I thought it might be challenging and engaging to try and pull it off. From the limited time I've spent playing females (As a man) I've found:
- I feel I RP better because there's an additional IC/OOC boundary in playing the opposing gender. I take more time and care considering background history, personality, and interactions with others. It's easier for me to take a step back and gauge effectively how to react and respond and a lot less potential bleed through of me the player into the characters.
- Less emotional investment and attachment to the character. This may or may not be a good thing.
- I've gotten this vague sense female characters are perceived to be less threatening overall and as such more open to talk to and approach.
- Some male players forget the general rule to assume everyone is a man on the internet and then trying to figure out how to let them down gently in telling them that the woman they seem to have fallen for in a pique of nerdgasm is in fact a man. Even if it is amusing.
- It's really creepy being flirted with and/or propositioned to by male nerds on the internet through random convos and mails.
In all though I'd say playing the opposite gender is interesting because it allows, to some extent, an ability to experience things from a different perspective. It's been eye opening to say the least.
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As Gessanier pointed out above, RPing the opposite gender provides the opportunity to minimize bleedover and maximize character distancing.
Personally, I find myself playing an "idealized" version of a woman that I would prefer IRL...which is not surprising, given the occurrence of playing characters of our own gender as "idealized" versions of ourselves.
As a result, all my female characters tend to trend around the same personality, which is a bit annoying when I want to try and RP differently. Anette is basically a miniature version of Rhea (if anyone remembers her); confident, self-assured, hyperfeminine. Kiam's not far off either.
Guess I'll just stick with one man and one woman for all my RPing needs. I don't picture myself able of RPing a male character very different from Seriphyn either, unless it was a fundamentally different build (Amarr zealot or something)
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I kinda miss Kiam.
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I have noticed that some male players with female characters portray their characters in a way that accords with cultural stereotypes about feminine behaviour - i.e. as types of characters I recognise from fiction, but have never actually met in real life.
I've also seen a number of conversations in OOC over the years about how particular RPers with female characters were 'doingitwrong' because their characters weren't 'like real women' - they were too strong, opinionated, and independent. Ironically, on each occasion the players singled out as 'not knowing how women really are' were, in fact, female players.
In my experience some players have their characters treat female characters differently and more positively than male characters where those characters are played in a way that fits stereotypes of femininity.
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Of course, people give me a lot of stuff; is this because they know I am a woman IRL?
"showers Ava with items (of course its all IOU notes but the thought counts"
Back on actual thread topic. Yes, noticed a clear difference. while my actual rp been light for a year or so now i tend to get more rp on the female char i use the most than on my 3 real mains (which are all male).
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I have noticed that some male players with female characters portray their characters in a way that accords with cultural stereotypes about feminine behaviour - i.e. as types of characters I recognise from fiction, but have never actually met in real life.
I've also seen a number of conversations in OOC over the years about how particular RPers with female characters were 'doingitwrong' because their characters weren't 'like real women' - they were too strong, opinionated, and independent. Ironically, on each occasion the players singled out as 'not knowing how women really are' were, in fact, female players.
In my experience some players have their characters treat female characters differently and more positively than male characters where those characters are played in a way that fits stereotypes of femininity.
So much this.
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I have noticed that some male players with female characters portray their characters in a way that accords with cultural stereotypes about feminine behaviour - i.e. as types of characters I recognise from fiction, but have never actually met in real life.
I've also seen a number of conversations in OOC over the years about how particular RPers with female characters were 'doingitwrong' because their characters weren't 'like real women' - they were too strong, opinionated, and independent. Ironically, on each occasion the players singled out as 'not knowing how women really are' were, in fact, female players.
In my experience some players have their characters treat female characters differently and more positively than male characters where those characters are played in a way that fits stereotypes of femininity.
Generally speaking across my entire RP experience, I either try not to play female characters or, when I do, I try to give as little thought to their gender as possible. I am not holding this up as an example of doing it right, but a G.I.R.L. friend (LOL) in SWG played a strong woman largely based on himself. He was amazed how many people told him he played a believable woman because he made no efforts in any direction to feminize or masculinize (why is that not a word?) his character. So I tried to follow his example with Casi.
Because of this, I intentionally play(ed) Casiella as a "strong, opinionated, and independent" woman who also eschewed romantic relationships. I never really noticed much difference in her IC treatment, though I saw a lot of supposition IC and OOC that, because she always turned guys down (or because she was played by a RL male), she must have been a lesbian.
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[....] masculinize (why is that not a word?) [....]
It is. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/masculinise)
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OK then it's just my browser's spell check that's behind the times. Thanks! Carry on!
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Actually, other than getting inspiration for Anette from various 11-year-olds I've taught here and there, I stole some personality inspiration from the eyebrow girl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoNtKdkEJww&feature=channel&list=UL).
But yeah, Ciarente is right about the unrealistic femininity thing, so I try to keep it believable. There might be some license as far as EVE goes, though. Gallentean finishing schools that teach such concepts, I 'unno.
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I have noticed that some male players with female characters portray their characters in a way that accords with cultural stereotypes about feminine behaviour - i.e. as types of characters I recognise from fiction, but have never actually met in real life.
I've also seen a number of conversations in OOC over the years about how particular RPers with female characters were 'doingitwrong' because their characters weren't 'like real women' - they were too strong, opinionated, and independent. Ironically, on each occasion the players singled out as 'not knowing how women really are' were, in fact, female players.
In my experience some players have their characters treat female characters differently and more positively than male characters where those characters are played in a way that fits stereotypes of femininity.
Generally speaking across my entire RP experience, I either try not to play female characters or, when I do, I try to give as little thought to their gender as possible. I am not holding this up as an example of doing it right, but a G.I.R.L. friend (LOL) in SWG played a strong woman largely based on himself. He was amazed how many people told him he played a believable woman because he made no efforts in any direction to feminize or masculinize (why is that not a word?) his character. So I tried to follow his example with Casi.
Because of this, I intentionally play(ed) Casiella as a "strong, opinionated, and independent" woman who also eschewed romantic relationships. I never really noticed much difference in her IC treatment, though I saw a lot of supposition IC and OOC that, because she always turned guys down (or because she was played by a RL male), she must have been a lesbian.
I could just quote this and leave it here, but y'all just can't be that lucky.
I ran an experimental alt recently1. Modeled her personality after what I remember of my own as a twenty-year old, modulo a handful of my eccentricities that are hardly worth mentioning2.
It took about oh, three, four weeks before she got ICly accused of being a lesbian. Never got accused of being a guy playing her, but since I didn't have any OOC conversations with her, it's possible I didn't give anyone the opportunity to do so.
1Like none of you do that. Don't judge me! :twisted:
2Yeah, I have more than a handful. I have a list that I keep in a 3-ring binder.
3Casi, she bored you to tears.
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She bored me to tears? I don't remember interacting with people that much lately, mostly because the entire Summit often bores me to tears. (And I know I never accused anyone of being a lesbian. :P )
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On topic: I've never run into a roleplay community where female characters weren't treated (and played) vastly differently then male ones. But then, roleplay is always just a reflection of real life, so it's not really surprising that it's the case. I mean, we don't live in a post-sexism world, and lots of people are trained to be more forgiving to women and harsher on men (and well as innumerable other things) by the society they live in. And roleplay is, though it's a grim way to put it, basically just the real world dumbed down and with a different coat of paint- People play what they see... And often what they see in media rather then reality, which adds an extra layer of conformance to stereotypes and expectations. Especially when playing characters vastly different from oneself, where there's no real personal context to add into the mix.
In regards to the tangent about female characters being played poorly, well... I worry a bit sometimes that I might have made Gwen a little too "Fragile", in personality terms, and set a bad example or annoyed others. :s Just to clarify: I'm a girl in real life and almost always play really strong, unfearful (and often villainous) characters, regardless of gender. Gwen is one of the only exceptions to this rule, who I've tried to present as someone utterly out of their element and feeling weak compared to those around her for legitimate, relatable reasons. But... When other new/first-day Capsuleers stream in already extremely confident and with a strong set of ideals, which seems to be how things roll, she ends up just sort of seeming weak-willed and "innocent", which is, to some, stereotypically feminine.
I intended her to be down-to-earth, introspective and quietly defiant and independent in spite of her having considerable anxiety and fears, and I think I've stuck to this in most cases. But I feel like it's easy for others to perceive her as a bog-standard frail waif, so to speak, and when people treat your character a certain way consistantly, it's easy to sort of "slip" into that role by accident. And I think I have fallen into it a couple times, which is no good.
I'd hate for her to end up that way full time or it just to be how everyone see's her. Maybe I need to change how I approach playing the character a little.
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Hmm.
I've had considerable experience being other people in Eve Online. Some of them were girls. At first, I sought advice from my chick friends on how to act girly... but that mainly confused and frightened the male objectives I was working on. I discovered something interesting shortly after that.
An actual female operative is less effective at convincing male objectives to do things, than a guy roleplaying a chick is. The reason for this appears to be that guys are better at pretending to be an ideal adorable chick, than actual female operatives are. I've had a few broads in my corp, hoping to take advantage of some obscure effect, but it just never happened. A guy pretending to be a chick is WAY more enticing than an actual chick.
I'll leave you all to ponder the implications...
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Men know better about what men really like? You don't say!
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That explains my uncle.
/me ducks
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Men know better about what men really like? You don't say!
[Some] men don't want real women, but prefer fantasy constructs? You don't say!
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Gwen, I'd say the Gwen character is an example of a particular personality type (and social role) done rather well. She's fantastic for asking questions and getting people to talk. I also like the occasional dry humour in there. Change her how you like to reflect her experience, but I'm not seeing a need to overhaul her.
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Gwen,
I personally really enjoy Gwen as a character and not because I see her as stereotypically feminine, because I don't. I see her more as someone who is not entirely certain of themselves around those who wield impressive power, wealth and influence and I imagine that stems from her background (which I picture isn't one of wealth, power and influence).
I also don't think she's weak, though Azdan personally thinks she's overly timid at times (which he's told her).
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Men know better about what men really like? You don't say!
[Some] men don't want real women, but prefer fantasy constructs? You don't say!
I think we learned lots today. ;)
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About the OP:
Yes, indeed. Even in EVE, where the player population is supposedly 95% male and everyone knows this, the believable female characters get treated differently. Personally I don't care about gender in computer games at all, except going "meh" and "ugh" from time to time at horrid topless avatars with huge "assets" instantly betraying Barry the Basement Dweller at the controls. But there are, surprisingly, enough people who seemingly do.
But the main difference in RPing a male or female is, from my point of view, the freedom of self-expression and the wider range of socially approved emotions available.
Females are allowed more self-expression than males and the people like them for it. Let's take my character as example: just try to imagine a proper Amarr male (something Azdan Amith-like) writing lengthy blog posts about his childhood toys and dreams, first love, home, family and whatnot.
Gallente one, sure. A college graduate. Even with some poetry and attached pretty "photos", perhaps. But not Amarr or Caldari or Minmatar - those are cultures where gender stereotypes and social roles are much stricter.
The fact that there are "no male blood raiders" really amuses me though. Why?! Evil cultists in robes are cool, much more so than space vampire lesbians :P At least EoM has Koronakesh.
More Palpatines please.
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The fact that there are "no male blood raiders" really amuses me though. Why?! Evil cultists in robes are cool, much more so than space vampire lesbians :P At least EoM has Koronakesh.
More Palpatines please.
Well, duh, no one wants to cyber Palpatine.
(cue in creepy Emperor voice "you want this....dont you..." )
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The fact that there are "no male blood raiders" really amuses me though. Why?! Evil cultists in robes are cool, much more so than space vampire lesbians :P At least EoM has Koronakesh.
More Palpatines please.
Well, duh, no one wants to cyber Palpatine.
(cue in creepy Emperor voice "you want this....dont you..." )
A proper Evil Mastermind in a Hooded Robe must be sexless. It is through the power of his supreme intelligence, charisma and the will of the Blood God that he dominates the universe :P "...Desires of flesh weaken you, my child. Let them be purged from you, give them up on the altar of our Crimson Lord and know His bliss..." (*minions prepare the bleeding device*)
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I tried to roleplay a female character for a short period of time. I can definitely say that trying to emulate something not resembling the perfect, beautiful woman with amazing cleavage raises eyebrows. I rather intentionally made her homely and celibate, and I came to the same conclusions some have raised here already: male players definitely expect idealized, stereotypically feminine characters in their interactions.
I suppose something that may pop up in a male player's mind when they make a female character to roleplay on is "How do I RP a woman?". And from that question, certain stereotypically feminine characteristics are forced into the character development, leading to what we see now.
Gender definitely does have some impact on character development, but to what degree and how I don't know.
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Infiltration is 100x easier on a female character, especially if you can stay off of voice chat for the first few weeks and leave it ambiguous as to whether or not you are actually female or male IRL. Women are perceived to be more trustworthy and guys always take that extra step to impress them (give out more info than they should, for instance).
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Infiltration is 100x easier on a female character, especially if you can stay off of voice chat for the first few weeks and leave it ambiguous as to whether or not you are actually female or male IRL. Women are perceived to be more trustworthy and guys always take that extra step to impress them (give out more info than they should, for instance).
Confirmed. I'm already a director.
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Well may as well weigh in :)
An extreme example would be the handful of EoM people.
The female EoM pilot, people say "oh hello, how is your day" and other polite conversations.
The male EoM pilot, there is a lot more "Oh, it's the death cultist. Burn anyone today?" and so on.
This is indeed more-or-less the case! Particularly among anyone who wouldn't know who my character or corp actually are, or simply don't care (I'm looking at you, Tarunik :eek:). But first impressions with my kindly old lady character have generally been positive with most anyone. Whenever I do poke her nose into a public channel, such as the Summit, it's often the Amarrian hardliners that will be the first to scorn her. I like that a lot. Really, she ought to be condemned. That's the kind of dynamic I was after when her concept was just forming; the pious old villain lady with a heart of gold. I really don't think this would work the same with a male character at all, where she would've likely been painted as another Koronakesh then treated as such from the start.
So yes, I believe it does make a difference, and I did make the decision to create Safai as a female based on this. "The Baroness to Koro's Cobra Commander" is an analogy I like to use ... or, for those that remember ME1 well enough, perhaps "The Benezia to Koro's Saren."
However, my prior character, who some may recall, was also female but really very male. She talked like a man, acted like a man, and (perhaps most importantly) looked like a man, which was also by design. But it's hard to tell if this really affected the way her chats played out because she was also a huge dick to most people. She was never meant to be likeable. (But re: full time ass is another thread ...) In any case that character is no longer mine, so onward into the future.
The fact that there are "no male blood raiders" really amuses me though. Why?! Evil cultists in robes are cool, much more so than space vampire lesbians :P At least EoM has Koronakesh.
More Palpatines please.
Oh man, for real. I've wondered about that before too. Space vampire lesbian fantasies aside, I seriously wonder where all the male Blood Raiders are hiding.
I'd actually like more Palpatine types of any sort, be it a sicko cultist or Orthodox Amarrian. I'm talking about a ghoulish, non-holder, speaker-of-truths style man, who can't help but disturb anyone he is talking to. This character type would be off the scale of the female-male spectrum when it comes to the approachability and interaction being discussed in this thread, and admittedly not everyone's cup of tea, but you'd think there would be at least a handful of people who are into playing that other than my lovably creepy CEO.
Also, FWIW, the Seekers' M/F character ratio is currently 5/2.
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Something interesting on forbes.com. In an analysis of activity and engagement on different social networks. A study found that:
Twitter: It isn’t particularly shocking, but users tweet at, and engage with females much more than they do males ...
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Yes, it makes a difference.
Yes, I'm also going to act differently around women in real life.
Sorry, ladies.
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I believe Synthia is probably treated far more gently than she would if she was a male character.
There was an incident recently, where a male Gallente character was doing some curious things relating to connecting his brain to a rogue drone thing.
iirc, it did not turn out at all well.
People were very hostile towards that particular character.
Yet Synthia is seemingly considered one of the more well regarded users of "the Summit". Is it just her calm, polite manner? or is it because she's a pleasant (if somewhat plain) looking youngish woman. Or has that appearance, anyway.
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If Synthia and Niccolo can be compared, the differences in the treatment they receive goes, in my opinion, beyond the male/female thing.
Niccolo was (is ?) a cartoonish, mustache-twirling villain. One of his description in The Summit was a carbon copy of the illusive man : smoking cigarettes and drinking whisky in his comfy chair, planet in the background. On both sides of the screen, my reaction was "Oh, come on !"
On the other hand, the way you roleplay Synthia... She's weird, she makes unpredictable, baffling statements : simply put, on the player side, you crack me up with that toon.
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Adreena more or less got it. While gender certainly plays a part, in this case it's mostly how the two act. Synthia is a very odd sort of person (putting it lightly) but she is also civil and polite almost to a fault. Niccolo was not, so when he did something outlandish and, well, dumb, people picked up the bats and started beating on him because he'd provided a justification for the action that words alone didn't justify.
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I believe Synthia is probably treated far more gently than she would if she was a male character.
There was an incident recently, where a male Gallente character was doing some curious things relating to connecting his brain to a rogue drone thing.
iirc, it did not turn out at all well.
People were very hostile towards that particular character.
Yet Synthia is seemingly considered one of the more well regarded users of "the Summit". Is it just her calm, polite manner? or is it because she's a pleasant (if somewhat plain) looking youngish woman. Or has that appearance, anyway.
I think it might be more that Synthia is almost a black box. She didn't appear as a 'human' at first and then try to plug dronebits into her noggin, she was already a drone thingie when she showed up. She acts very very alien, and thus people aren't sure whether she's just a demented capsuleer that thinks she's a drone, or if she's actually a drone. Its like the difference between rolling a Minmatar character and saying you're minmatar, and rolling an Amarrian character and claiming you're actually minmatar.
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Synthia seems mostly harmless to people's eyes. Like Valerie and the other CTCS.
The other one however...
But just try to make Synthia sound serious and things might change a lot. I think the crux of the matter lies in the fact that gallente guy mostly seemed serious, where Synthia and the rest of CTCS sound too much silly and joyful to seem really serious.
If it is not serious ICly in Eve, it's ok. Start making it sound serious and people reactions will naturally adapt and reply seriously too.
She may really think she is serious, and that's why make people giggle, because everyone seem to assume that the character is just silly in her own way. In my experience at least.
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(Referring to Lyn's post above.)
That would actually be pretty scary: Some rather eccentric quirks, light-heartedly considered funny. Except in the cases where the fun fun fun would be just a screen. If I were into tinfoilhattery, Synthia would probably make me rather scared of spoons, regardless whether Appropriately Sized or Not.
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I believe Synthia is probably treated far more gently than she would if she was a male character.
There was an incident recently, where a male Gallente character was doing some curious things relating to connecting his brain to a rogue drone thing.
iirc, it did not turn out at all well.
People were very hostile towards that particular character.
Yet Synthia is seemingly considered one of the more well regarded users of "the Summit". Is it just her calm, polite manner? or is it because she's a pleasant (if somewhat plain) looking youngish woman. Or has that appearance, anyway.
There is a new dev actor named Citizen Ahvar that I took an immediate liking to because he has the same mannerisms as Synthia. If it weren't for him trying to convert her, I'd have let Kat be a bit friendlier. Come to think of it, if you recall, Kat was less than friendly to Synthia in the beginning. That changed later on, and it may very well change with Citizen Ahvar.
... SHUT UP -TSF-. NO. SHUSH. NO CITIZEN ONISEKI.
Ahem. Anyways... I think it is worth noting that synthia has become a fairly standard character for the Summit. She's not very controversial (except for what she actually is), she tends to have childlike qualities, and she gets along with everybody. She's also been around for a while, and hasn't suddenly exploded into dramatic flair with kidnappings or other nonsense. So, I think this has allowed players and characters alike to relax around her, despite the drone bits.
I don't know if this male Gallente was new or not... but people tend to get chewed up when they start doing crazy stuff within their first couple months on the Summit. I've seen many new players try to go for the Academy Award for Best Dramatic Actor and fail miserably because they have not yet established a solid character reputation to leverage.
Or, maybe it's just because Synthia has tits.
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To be fair, the guy would turn up and talk about doing things FOR THE SCIENCE that were basically research no-no's and completely illegal/insane. Several people played along, took part in a couple of RP events with him and it really only got out of hand when he started logging into the Summit to twirl his moustache and stroke his cat at us.
It started off interesting, but definitely veered off into Special Snowflake territory.
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I honestly don't know if I respond differently to women than to men.
Ciarente is one of the the only two women I recall being in a corp of mine (the other being a director in a 0.0 corp), and Mata is probably the only one I've spoken to regularly, and I have fairly high opinions of both, given what limited knowledge one can have through the medium of a MMORPG. As for female characters, I do note that most of the females I have known of play female characters, while men will play females or males. Very rarely have I seen a woman RP a male character - although, to be fair, I know that Ciarente has at least one male as an alt.
A few of the men-RPing-women I've interacted with also post on this board, and some no longer play Eve. Lycana was an old member of White Rose, and we went on some roams, but I don't recall being interested in his character as a female as much as I was interested in the player, and his ability to put blaster rounds on target. Casiella was always fun to RP with, but that had nothing to do with her gender status.
I don't like to make the claim to being gender neutral. I'm probably not, and I don't have the tools for determining it. On the other hand, on the IGS or in The Summit, the words people use tend to impact more on my immediate actions or responses than the (character) gender of a poster. Speaking as my character, I don't particularly care now whether Desideriya (hope I spelled that correctly) or Seriphyn is male or female, I care about whether they are on my side or not. In other words, someone's gender means nothing as to whether they need to be fed through an IC shredder for the good of the State. But then, I play a very ideologically focused character, always have, and enjoy that. I do have a Gallente alt, who is much less ideological (Why? Well, I personally feel that the Federation is way too much of a Mary-Sue-topia to be interesting RPing ideologically) but I'm not telling who. I imagine things are different when one is mainlining heavy personality RP, which seems to be a fairly addictive drug for those on it. ;)
And yet, I know that Vikarion's (as opposed to my) feelings towards Ciarente (seeing her as a rather naive, helpless person) were definitely influenced by gender. This was partly the nature of the character, and partly the storyline I was constructing (and constructing for my own, personal enjoyment, I should note), which was of a man with genuinely good intentions and utterly horrible means totally destroying just about everything he held dear, including his fiancee, his transhumanist goals, and those he worked with (sorry, Cia! :bear:) Part of that tragedy is that he couldn't see Ciarente or those with her as independent and capable persons: in a very real way, Vikarion had completely bought into the Sansha philosophy of others needing to be directed for their own good. Now, how much of that was caused by gender? Well, his misunderstanding of Ciarente was partly because she was a young Intaki female, and his failure to see Petra Bealer's completely lunatic side was certainly aided by the "cute and cheerful chipmunk" personality that Petra adopted. As well, he certainly has feelings for Aria Jenneth, who, as an RPer, I personally must say I have some admiration for as someone who managed to so completely merge philosophical discussion and character drama.
Now - given that I am likely not at all perfect in this regard - do I see preference being given by others to female characters? Absolutely. But I also think part of it is in how female characters present themselves. It is generally true, I think, that male characters (say, an Amarrian) tend to come off more initially aggressive and hostile in their introduction and comportment than female characters. Female characters that behave aggressively and with open hostility (Silas Vitalia, for example) tend not to be beneficiaries of the supposed female bias.
This would lead me to think that the response is less a factor than the presentation - in other words, the audience of the specific character is less likely to accord special treatment to a female than the RPer is to act differently as a female. If you examine the posts by male and female characters, regardless of the actual gender behind the character, I think this trend tends to hold true - to wit, that female characters on the whole do not approach any particular issue or situation with the same aggressiveness and, well, often tactlessness, that male characters do - and that where this trend is broken, reactions also tend to differ.
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I think, generally speaking, that aggressiveness in men is viewed as desirable while aggressiveness in women is viewed as undesirable. Conversely, kindness in men can come off as weakness, while kindness in women tends to be viewed as warm or inviting. It would seem to follow that female characters will get a better reception as long as they're nice, while male characters suffer fewer consequences for being rude. So, female characters can achieve higher highs, while male characters can avoid lower lows, maybe?
One thing that sticks out as interesting to me is the idea of being interesting 'as a woman'; namely, is there a corresponding status of interesting 'as a man'?
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I don't think Lyn has ever payed attention to other character's genders since only the content and the form matter to her eyes. However, would have I played another type of character, it could have been interesting to make him/her behave differently depending on character's genders.
IRL though, as Vikarion, I am not sure that I could tell honestly if it makes a difference or not for me.
However I think that character gender heavily affects the perception people have of said character. A female version of Adam Jensen may share the same qualities and defects than the original, but she will not be percieved the same way either by the audience or other characters. The difference of perception also tends to vary a lot when you start to enter into some stereotypes that are almost exclusively gender specific : how would be seen a female variant of Gandalf in his role ?
I believe that the character concept behind my own would not work the same way with a male either. It would be rather... clunky, without important tweakings here and there.
(Referring to Lyn's post above.)
That would actually be pretty scary: Some rather eccentric quirks, light-heartedly considered funny. Except in the cases where the fun fun fun would be just a screen. If I were into tinfoilhattery, Synthia would probably make me rather scared of spoons, regardless whether Appropriately Sized or Not.
Realistically definitly. But people know unconsciously that they are still playing a game. I think they make a clear distinction between "comic relief" and "serious business", and I think that it is quite visible in RP.
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As I'm bored, counting the minutes slowly ticking to midnight, I thought I'd post up my thoughts on this.
There is definitely a difference in the way male and female characters are treated IC. Usually the female ones get a lot more deference by other characters who are unfamiliar with them - what the cause of this is, I can't tell for sure, though of course my gut reaction is that it's probably 'teh boobies'. Male characters are given far less leeway, and are often elicit a far more aggressive response. In short, they're willing to put up with less bullshit from male characters, possibly because while disagreements might exist with the female characters, the latter will be more respectful in how they disagree - it's all in the delivery. Sak would much rather talk about Federal policy with a character like Mekhana on the forums than with Seriphyn, for instance.
So from a personal standpoint, my characters tend to talk with other females because, in general, they can be reasoned with. In contrast, arguing things like theology or politics with male characters is no fun at all, so unless I'm on one of my more "annoyed and bitchy" characters (like Sak or Eri), I'll often just lurk and wait for the party to AFK it up.
Some other observations and comments:
- Strong women rock, especially the types that can play the dual role of assertive when they want to be, and more passive and reserved at other times (rather than one or the other). Good example would be military women IRL, especially the officers - to be disciplined and in-command during the day, under shitty situations at times, and then to revert to Mommy and wife in the evenings (if they're lucky)... lot of admiration for women like that. Especially for the ones that happen to be beautiful and physically gifted, and almost have to overcome that like it's an obstacle (for a RL example, see beautiful female CEO's or government officials, and you'll always have some asshole think they got there by sleeping to the top. Motherfuckers :bash:.)
- Sweet jebus, Morwen isn't kidding about the whole romance scene and lack of decent male characters. At least 95% or more of the male characters that mine happen to encounter, they're either a) fucked up in the head, b) assholes, c) already in relationships. The lack of suitable IC "Y chromosomes" out there is causing a lot of women to be more "open minded" about romance, if you get the drift.
- Regarding the "believability" of female characters, I try not to think too much about it. At the end of the day, women are not a homogenous population that all think alike and have similar tendencies. If any behaviors or reactions are different than what you'd normally expect a woman to do, one can always chalk it up to podders being odders (I lol'd!), or just a different childhood culture than the norm. Case and point, I'd say that the Nihil sisters' background has made them a lot more disciplined and assertive than the average IC female, due to the circumstances of their upbringing1. Problem solved for me, at least IMO.
- Red, where'd you get your avatar from? I like it, was it done as a commission? Evemail me IG/OOC with details on the artist if you wouldn't mind (and read this). On second thought, I should probably PM them instead of doing a forum post about it.
:brilliant:
1 Just each other and their parents in Minmatar lowsec, fairly isolated by themselves on a barely habitable ice planet. When your parents are former CalNav, and lapses in discipline could lead to injures, deaths, starvation, discovery by unsavory elements, etc... I would hope they'd adapt at a young age. Especially for Civire kids, no fucking around in discipline there.
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Apparently I have had a slightly different experience.
I usually find Seri or Mekhana not really aggressive. Seri no more than her. And I also find Seri a lot less progressive/rebel than Mekhana, who is quite the Gallente patriot in comparison. She is more radical and I find it surprising that you still prefer to argue with her.
For the lack of IC "Y chromosomes", I can't really disagree, but as I already said somewhere else I do not see how it is better for the X chromosomes. It's not a matter of gender to my eyes, but more or matter of roleplayers.