Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 22 Apr 2010, 03:23
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To start this off, I think the biggest thing that is a problem is that there are plenty of Gallentean roleplayers...except they all roleplay as another faction. Either as a Gallentean that is (apparently) a happily accepted State citizen, a Gallentean that converted to Amarr, or a Gallentean that "stepped down" and joined the Republic. If you ask me, that doesn't seem characteristic of Gallenteans at all; there are non-ethnic Amarrians who fight for the Empire, yes, but the tend to be Ni-Kunni, Khanid, Matari etc., and the State is marketed as xenophobic and the Gallenteans being their "hated enemies"...but I think that is another discussion altogether, and possibly sparked by my personal resentment over the fact you have more Gallenteans roleplaying a different faction instead of roleplaying their own.
EL-G attempted to provide, to which it worked to varying degrees, "militaristic" Gallentean RP. The tangible RP is all there; kicking out the State out of Gallentean systems and keeping them out so their can keep their corporate slavery blahblah to themselves. CCP provided an escalation to the war, a reason for the Gallenteans to fight, the same way that the Amarrians are fighting for the Reclaiming and the Matari are fighting against slavery. The Gallenteans are now fighting against corporations that will exploit their systems for material gain.
Why is it, then, in the face of this tangible RP goal, that the Gallente still are neglible in size? With the release of the Black Eagles chron, I was thinking of styling EL-G as a Black Eagles auxiliary. Lots of tasty lore that make the Gallentean secret police seem quite badass. Protecting Freedom by any means necessary. This has been discussed before really, but I am curious; the lore is there to be able to RP a Gallentean loyalist to the same degree as the other factions...so why don't people?
(also the Federation aren't Cosmic Catholics or tribes-in-space hurhur lolol :P kidding)
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To start this off, I think the biggest thing that is a problem is that there are plenty of Gallentean roleplayers...except they all roleplay as another faction. Either as a Gallentean that is (apparently) a happily accepted State citizen, a Gallentean that converted to Amarr, or a Gallentean that "stepped down" and joined the Republic. If you ask me, that doesn't seem characteristic of Gallenteans at all; there are non-ethnic Amarrians who fight for the Empire, yes, but the tend to be Ni-Kunni, Khanid, Matari etc., and the State is marketed as xenophobic and the Gallenteans being their "hated enemies"...but I think that is another discussion altogether, and possibly sparked by my personal resentment over the fact you have more Gallenteans roleplaying a different faction instead of roleplaying their own.
EL-G attempted to provide, to which it worked to varying degrees, "militaristic" Gallentean RP. The tangible RP is all there; kicking out the State out of Gallentean systems and keeping them out so their can keep their corporate slavery blahblah to themselves. CCP provided an escalation to the war, a reason for the Gallenteans to fight, the same way that the Amarrians are fighting for the Reclaiming and the Matari are fighting against slavery. The Gallenteans are now fighting against corporations that will exploit their systems for material gain.
Why is it, then, in the face of this tangible RP goal, that the Gallente still are neglible in size? With the release of the Black Eagles chron, I was thinking of styling EL-G as a Black Eagles auxiliary. Lots of tasty lore that make the Gallentean secret police seem quite badass. Protecting Freedom by any means necessary. This has been discussed before really, but I am curious; the lore is there to be able to RP a Gallentean loyalist to the same degree as the other factions...so why don't people?
(also the Federation aren't Cosmic Catholics or tribes-in-space hurhur lolol :P kidding)
I originally selected an Intaki ethnicity when I made Syyl'ara, fitting most of my natural outlook as a first roll. This was before the recent strife that has taken place within the Federation, and I had no plans for any dischord in her relationship with the government. Deeper understanding of Caldari-Gallente history and especially recent events lead me to this basic conclusion: from a narrative perspective most other factions offer a way for players to join their faction's antagonism while the primary route for doing so with the Federation is to direct it against the faction.
Its easy for people to roleplay an imperialist zealot (or cautious liberal reformer), it fits right?
Its easy for people to roleplay oppressed tribalists enacting retribution and spreading emancipation (or working quietly to bring their people into a more modern life), it fits right?
Its easy for people to roleplay bottom-line minded corporate meritocracies with meticulously streamlined logistics backbones and smart division structure (that looks super on a flowchart...I mean or the loyal provist soldier)
When it comes to the Federation, well...who ever sticks up for democratic bureaucracies with entrenched parties, obscured oversight, and the right to disenfranchise its citizens?
The problem is, it hits too close to home for a lot of people. This game is naturally played in more advanced parts of the world who's governments are most easily identifiable with the Gallente...with varying degrees of the same problems portrayed (and in probably all of them, very clear examples of such across their history). The natural position to take is one of antagonism.
We "know" brainwashed-from-birth generally leads to the prototypical Amarrian
We "know" formerly enslaved cultures have a hard time integrating and harbor deep resentments
We "know" corporate culture and supreme loyalty lead to questionable ethics
We know abuses of power in democracy must be met with indignation, not support or apathy
The first three most people have only experienced through anecdote or fictional/literary portrayal, the last we shy from "un-writing" from our conscience without grave consequences, so putting on the role of someone loyal to that institution might just be too far of a stretch for most of us.
Now with Yaan and the backstory of their Intaki exile heritage, my characters have a view equally critical of both for their irrational xenophobia and abuses.
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Some have made the argument that since the Federation shares many similiarities to Western Culture that the roleplay is too close to the real world. Obviously, that's selling Fed rp a bit short and clearly they have many differences worth presenting. What I find interesting is that Federation roleplay has the most vibrant internal conflict (intaki separatism) of any of the factions.
Before faction warfare started, Kaleigh had started the Egaltarian Movement and the Rue Lounge that brought together all the major fed roleplay alliances and independent looking out for the best interests of the Federation people and each other in space. Cyrene, and a couple other alliances banded together, they worked together on projects, and I think overall strengthened the fed rp movement because of it, despite all their minor differences.
Ultimately, Federation citizens thrive on individuality but need to learn the value of banding together as a cohesive movement. It needs a natural leader to bring them together, and that might be something you could pull off, especially if you're well respected.
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We "know" brainwashed-from-birth generally leads to the prototypical Amarrian
We "know" formerly enslaved cultures have a hard time integrating and harbor deep resentments
We "know" corporate culture and supreme loyalty lead to questionable ethics
I might suggest that points 1 and 3 show up more commonly IRL than we might like to admit. I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, but certainly one can think of various religious groups who've reached conclusions that trouble many who do not belong to their belief system, yet seem completely acceptable to large parts of the world. And if you don't think that corporate culture leads to questionable ethics and decision-making, I wonder where you've been for the last few years. ;)
The second point is a little more complicated, but many of us have substantial experience interacting with individuals from the developing world (if not from there ourselves). Certainly the colonial pasts of many of these regions have an impact on their current situations, economically and culturally, so I can identify to a degree with the carryover into EVE.
I do agree that part of the issue described here with the Gallente is that it hits even closer to home for many EVE players and forces us to confront issues we face IRL, particularly in recent years. The other three issues seem a little more clear-cut, but ask around in the US about "enhanced interrogation techniques" and the current wars and you'll get lots of answers, some angry, with many varying viewpoints.
Carrying that conflict into a game that many of us play for escapism might defeat the purpose...
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I would say it isn't unlikely that you would find Gallente pod pilots scattered around other cultures pretty frequently. If you have a culture that is all about individuals, then they will go and make decisions for themselves. It's messy, but there you are.
I disagree with the idea that there is once 'type' - or even a few - that people 'should' play based on their race or background. It's a big cluster, and everyone should be different, to one degree or another.
I think a lot of the trouble for Gallente RP has already been hit on, but to add: There is no unifying theme. No hook for new RPers to grab onto. That is something that someone or some corp might be able to fashion.
Also, it seems to me you have a lot of 'RP-lite' folks in the Gallente block, particularly involved in FW. Someone might try and make contact there, and see if they can find a few people who are interested in the whole 'RP' thing.
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As an adjunct member of the Gallente RP bloc, I think what is sorely missing are a few charismatics leaders to serve as the catalyst for a vibrant RP scene.
I've been doing the Intaki separatist thing for three years now. When I started the ILF there were already TWO, yes TWO, Intaki RP groups going. Placid Reborn leaned too Pro-Fed for me and INTAKI UNION was too, well, crazy PEW PEW for me.
So I started doing something in the middle. We advocate independence like Phantomas did, but also working with the Federation to improve things like Pytria did. While I didn't agree completely with their corporations, I was saddened to see them fade from the scene. They made it more lush and deep.
Similarly, where have the Bruno Bonners and other champions of the Federation gone? I remember the days when Placid was thick with groups like Strix, The Durandal Organization, Scrutari and each of these groups had a slightly different flavor of Pro-Federalism.
Julianus gave us some fun RP with Moira. and their brand of Federation RP, but sadly, he too has gone on to other things.
So what advice do I have to give? Perhaps this is the best I can do: Build it and they will come.
The ILF started off as me and a bunch of day old trial account players. Members have come and gone over the years, but I never stopped building on the foundations. We've added depth and breadth to what already existed and now I don't have to recruit because players come to me. When they search for information about the Intaki, they find the ILF and see what we have created and WANT to be a part of it.
Those who want Gallente RP need to do the same thing. You're right, the cannon is there. The PF is there. The sandbox is there. Take ownership of it and build your sand castle.
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx194/saxonhawke/_sandcastle02.jpg)
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Gallenteans worship individuality and pleasing their own ego's. Capsuleers would be extreme examples of those. 'Bloc' would be a foreign concept to the culturally true Gallente. Gallente that like blocs go over to the Amarr or somesuch. The Gallente 'bloc' is al those crazy pirate leaders, wealthy philanthropists and hosts of other self-interested individuals.
I think it perfectly fitting that there is no 'Gallente Bloc'.
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[mod]Please do not make personal attacks on other players. [/mod]
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The more individual freedoms in the culture, the more wild and varied the culture becomes. Even supposed to be French descendants, I really only compare it to the american culture of which I am a part. Which is were not unified on a single thing. Hell there could be a debate on something retarded like babycide and somebody would come up with an arguement for why it's a good idea. And it'd be even worse across different planets instead of different states.
Ditching the american thing, the Gallente don't really have that easy to spot characteristic that is just integrated into the culture. I imagine them being at their worst when they stop being individualistic and start with the mob mentality taking over. The FW is good for this, allowing the mob mentality into the mix, creating that unifying angle for somebody to sink into the team effort of driving back those devil Caldari and pillaging their hotties.
Which I assume was the Federations goal end goal all along.
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Gallenteans worship individuality and pleasing their own ego's. Capsuleers would be extreme examples of those. 'Bloc' would be a foreign concept to the culturally true Gallente. Gallente that like blocs go over to the Amarr or somesuch. The Gallente 'bloc' is al those crazy pirate leaders, wealthy philanthropists and hosts of other self-interested individuals.
I think it perfectly fitting that there is no 'Gallente Bloc'.
I would say they worship such things when they're safe to do so. Individuality and self-indulgence cannot survive if outside forces act against "individuals". In such a light, I could see even extreme individualist Capsuleers and the like banding together for the greater good of insuring their (cultural) survival.
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I guess the Gallente capsuleer society doesn't feel threatened enough yet to form a 'bloc'?
A thing I'm getting from Gallente culture is their obsession with media. Maybe a clique of Gallente media-personalities all using each other to remain in the spotlight would be a good form for a Gallente bloc? Seriphyn Inhonores characters is certainly a good start for it, but I also like Kayleigh Doyle and Verone as Gallente media-horny larger-than-life personalities.
However, if anyone wants to form a Gallente bloc of any persuasion and have fun, do so by all means!
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I guess the Gallente capsuleer society doesn't feel threatened enough yet to form a 'bloc'?
They were, they did, they lost. And CAIN was not involved.
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[mod]Had a couple reports on this thread. Please try to remain civil.[/mod]
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To throw out there there is a little bit of "folks made the wrong race RPly" for skills back when certain races were better at certain things.
And odd ball cases like mine - boil it down to the basics here:
Friends: "Play this game with us"
Me: "MmmK. So what do I do?"
Friends: "Make a toon - do the starter missions and we'll hook ya up."
Me: Made a Gallente-Intaki-Artist with a ugly blue backdrop- is that a problem?
Friends: "Nope - we're a Matari Terrorist group."
Me: "Did I mess up and shoulda rolled a Minnie?"
Friends: "Nah. It adds character."
I had no idea what "being" Intaki meant when I started Eve and started researching to build her history. More then once RPly she has seriously sat and considered "going home" - even ICly (never OOCly - love Havo and Miz too much) sat and almost opened coms with Saxon a few times and still have a lingering grudge on Moria for having war-decced the ILF.
Of course the lack of a Gallente bloc wouldn't be helped if Zu did leave, because oddly the Gallante players really have sorta split into the "Intaki bloc" and "Gallente Bloc" in my mind.
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I still tend to agree with your friends that say "it adds character". Having her ponder the inner conflict between Intaki culture and belonging to a Matari terrorist group should provide all sorts of interesting dramatic tension.
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I've seen people come and go, trying to make a central Gallente organization. There just seems to be something about the Fed that doesn't hold people. It's an issue that other empires have, but it usually isn't quite so problematic.
It might be that a lot of people like to be an anti-hero, and the image the Fed presents is just a little too 'good', without a compelling cause (like slavery) to rally behind.
I think it is more possible to have a fringe or extremist position within the spectrum of what might believable be Fed-related than other empires, though. More possible in that there might be more variety.
A Gallente flavor of Sani Sabik, Anti-government (particularly after the disenfranchisement), anti-immigration (or even nastier kinds of nationalism hiding behind that facade), more moderate but still fervent opposition to external (particularly Republic? and of course those darn Caldari stations) links. Hell, neo-monarchists. Etc.
Now, I don't know that a polarizing position would help, just a thought about what might be tried.
There are, also, several fairly successful Gallente corps (Strix, several 'RP-lite' FW corps), so it might be that the perception there is no Gallente 'bloc' is more that they just aren't seen around a lot.
In fact, thinking about it, I think it is a surprisingly good reflection of, at least my idea, of Gallente society. There is no block because of course there are factors dividing everyone. Yet many (most?) still work for the good of the Fed, in their various ways. They don't agree and fall in line because that isn't required of them by the Fed, that kind of thing.
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Hmm, there is potential for so-called "Evil RP" in Gallente Federation, and particularly sinister at that.
Before joining Veto. I dabbled with ideas and notes of making a FIO Black Eagle capsuleer corp. What little info bits have given about they come of as a mix of the Gestapo and PsiCorps (from Babylon 5). People who are basically above reproach by their position and do things behind the scenes 'for the sake of the nation' because it's 'citizens do not always know what is good for them' and 'Because Democracy is too important to leave to chance'. I say above reproach because they answer only to Mentas Blaque. One could say that you could hold Blaque responsible but, would you really wanna do that knowing he has a government sanctioned gestapo-esque force at his disposal.
Am not sure how accurate this interpretation is but there is a venue for that kinda stuff with the Gallente as well. I just think Black Eagles need more sinister publicity in the form of fiction to bring forth the darker side of the Federation. Burning people on TV for 'justice' was a bit blunt and clumsy effort to bring the grimdark to the Feds imo.
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Sounds like the Black Eagles and the RSS have a lot in common.
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Back in the days I first considered Gallente. There could be a few possible openings.
First, a Gallente megacorp. A bit like a Caldari mega, except that you're not responsible of the people working for you. They're your staff, not your citizens, so as long as you don't break any major laws, the PR machine can deal with the general populace. Or if it's a criminal mega (like the Serpentis), ditch the PR, you won't need it. Examples: Several old Gallente paramilitaries would be mix of this and the third flavour.
Second, political radicals. There's a plenty of activists of all sorts in the Federation. The exact flavour might vary a bit. Liberals would be out of the question, but the mentioned Royalists would do fine, as well as Commies. Examples: Intaki separatists.
Third, at least before the FW (and why not in the FW, too): Team Gallente: Universal Police. The existing paramilitary corps might do well here.
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Strix is around. At the risk of oversharing, one of the reasons folks don't see much from it in terms of self-publicity these days is that few within the current organization care to interact with the RP community at large, and those who do have been beset by RL issues that limit their game time.
Then there's me, who's all over interacting with the RP community at large (even though I don't have much in the way of time to do so anymore) -- but I don't to be even unwittingly in charge of any corporate-level RP. That's not true of just Strix, but also applies to any corporation I didn't create. :P
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Gallente (and Caldari) corps have lots of public RP? :roll:
I thought it was just par for the course that we tend to avoid threadnaughts on IGS.
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I thought it was just par for the course that we tend to avoid threadnaughts on IGS.
:D
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I just registered to say, this thread delivers, and personally feel very honored to be mentioned.
I'm back ingame, and building new stuff, not as Bruno though, he is dead. Too idealistic, too nice, too naive, he had too many pitfalls.
New character is Gallente thru and thru.
And one thing i came to realize, there can never be a "Gallente Bloc" per se, since those who wish to RP democracy, liberalism, politics and other aspects of the Gallente culture means a level of complexity that can never form a single cohesive front, only a loose one gathered by what the Federation "ideals" represent to each individual.
And perhaps after realizing that, Gallente RPers can explore better what it means to be part of "the bloc".
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Well, you look at how fractured even apparently more monolithic 'Factions' are (Republic or Amarr RPers, for example) and it's easy to see where there would be even less cohesion in the 'Gallente' block.
How is the rebuilding going, Bruno, and who is the character/what is the corporation - if it isn't a secret?
I might have someone to point your way for an event. Been looking for Gallente participants.
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I don't even bother to read the IGS any more :ugh:
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My question is: "Why do the Gallente need a bloc anyway?" For myself, one of the draws of Gallentean/Federal RP is its lack of homogenity. Some may see the lack of a, 'Party Line' as detrimental but for Fed RP you don't need one. There's so much possibility and opportunity in Fed RP it's amazing people don't explore them. It's far more interesting having a variety of Federal corps pursuing their agendas than having one single bloc in my opinion.
If we're talking raw numbers of Fed RP'ers then yes, it's true it's smaller than the other factions but the issue is really that currently only the ILF/IPI is visibly pursuing its agenda in a solid fashion. I will say that Strix is pursuing its own agenda but visibly? No. Strix has always operated as an SDII (Previously FIO) corporate front. As such in terms of RP, it's detrimental to be seen as 'nothing more' than a Federal PMC. Visibility tends to be more a liability than asset for Strix. We can't exactly go around screaming, "We're with the SDII!" now can we?
As for people wanting be the anti-heroes in regards to Fed RP I've found the opposite to be true. When presented with the fact that as a part of Strix one is expected to murder, assassinate, kidnap, extort, torture, perform renditions, foment extra-territorial insurgency and conduct corporate and state espionage all in the name of the Federation, more than a few have decided to opt-out of the corp. People seem to want to be the white knights when it comes to the Federation and not do, "Whatever it takes", to preserve democracy and ensure citizens sleep soundly at night.
Such as with Lokikamo Innova, it was nothing more than an unfortunate attack by the Angel Cartel, not the utilization of Cartel assets to cover the massacre of staff at Pertnineere, the liquidation of its Board of Directors and the torture of its Chief Executive aimed at containing suspected Provist infiltration of the company and the exposure of tenuous links between Strix and Ishukone.
As for what that has to do with the Gallente Bloc? It would get boring if the Federation was just a bunch of jackboot wearing fascists. You also need people to apply that jackboot to.
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I think previously there just haven't been enough RPers to really sustain an extremely multi-faceted Fed landscape. You've got people who are involved in Gallente RP of any stripe (not traditionally a huge number) and then you divide them into a bunch of smaller groups and you kinda run out of people. At least that was always my impression. I know there have been corps that were aligned with particular facets and successful, but I never really saw enough folks to cover a good spectrum of facets. That might have been a failure of observation on my part, ofc.
With live events generating interest, and the overall ongoing increase in player numbers, that hopefully will no longer be the case, though, if it was previously.
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If we're talking raw numbers of Fed RP'ers then yes, it's true it's smaller than the other factions but the issue is really that currently only the ILF/IPI is visibly pursuing its agenda in a solid fashion.
Thanks for the props, Zag! I remember a time back in the day when there were four or five fairly active pro-Fed corps. It was a lot of fun to see some of their pilots in local and launch into a rhetorical debate on the meanings of Freedom, the bonds of multinational democracies, the finer points of the nullification doctrine, etc.
I'm not saying I need another Moira. episode, but it was nice to have a group that could be relied upon to serve as a counter to our position. Yin-Yang and all that.
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Honestly, when you ask the question, "Why is the gallente bloc non-existant?", you really need to first ask what defines the culture first before you can identify whether it even exists or not. So taking directly from the character creation screen I've bulleted the essentials, taken right from the new character info: Democratic, multi-cultural, welcomes outsiders with open arms, intolerant of closed societies, fierce defenders of personal and social liberties.
Now, my question to all of you: if you walk into a capsuleer roleplay bar and interacted with the people there, could you tell the difference between a fed rp'er from a Republic-born capsuleer, an independent trader, and a Caldari pilot? Unless they're painting broad brush stereotypes (*looks at the caldari squeezing his isk*), it may be rather difficult. The problem I've seen is there simply isn't enough diversity from the other cultures to really set the Feds apart. Most are already roleplaying all of those attributes, just not in the name of the Federation.
So honestly, what I'd like to see is a little more diversity from all the other cultures in the capsuleer community, because with some few exceptions I'd say the Feds are in the majority. Also, whether you hate them or not, the Star Fraction are the ultimate expression of the Federation culture taken to the extreme. They pretty much espouse all of the values of the Federation without actually representing them.
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Now, my question to all of you: if you walk into a capsuleer roleplay bar and interacted with the people there, could you tell the difference between a fed rp'er from a Republic-born capsuleer, an independent trader, and a Caldari pilot? Unless they're painting broad brush stereotypes (*looks at the caldari squeezing his isk*), it may be rather difficult. The problem I've seen is there simply isn't enough diversity from the other cultures to really set the Feds apart. Most are already roleplaying all of those attributes, just not in the name of the Federation.
So honestly, what I'd like to see is a little more diversity from all the other cultures in the capsuleer community, because with some few exceptions I'd say the Feds are in the majority. Also, whether you hate them or not, the Star Fraction are the ultimate expression of the Federation culture taken to the extreme. They pretty much espouse all of the values of the Federation without actually representing them.
I actually agree with this, and it fits PF perfectly in the sense of how the Gallente are the most "culturally dominant". There were parties in Three Sisters for example, last year, that was all decadent and depraved and was very much "Gallentean", despite the fact the amount of Gallente faction RPers were minimal.
And yes, if you read the description of Proteus, the first thing I thought of was the Star Fraction.
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We'll just have to adapt ;)