Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Arkady Sadik on 14 Sep 2011, 16:00
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I've been using the new "like" button on the e-o forums for a while to reward cool posts, and have noticed that this is a very OOC consideration - I want to reward people with good RP posts and say "awesome, please more of those." This differs greatly from what Arkady would reward (I've "liked" a number of Amarr posts, say).
How do others handle this? Do you "like" IC or OOC?
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OOC/IC for me. I only toss a like if both my character and me are impressed with what was said. That way, no matter which way someone takes it... they've got it right.
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I've been taking it OOC, I don't really see Malcolm caring all that much about giving someone a "like" for a post.
I've liked posts that I've found to make good points, even if they are points Malcolm would disagree with, I've liked funny, sarcastic and creative posts.
If I see a post that I think is really well written, or brings out effective arguments, or simply reflects a character's viewpoints really well, I like it.
Ultimately, if I feel a post is fitting, I will probably like it - no matter how Malcolm feels about it.
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Considering the anonymity behind the feature, I'm hard pressed to think it has any IC relevance outside of when characters specifically mention using it IC.
All it shows is someone somewhere +1'd, but the who and why is a complete mystery. Now, if it showed others who +1'd, then it'd have more weight IC as a function.
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You are aware that you can see who "likes" your posts, right?
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But we cannot see who has liked other people's posts.
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Then I'd consider it ic. My character can use this info to react to people who like what I have written. I'd say its a difficult path to ignore it as ooc info.
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Not too difficult from my perspective. I just presume that Mal doesn't see the "like" function at all. He's going to say what he feels he needs to say (or wants to say) to whomever he pleases, whenever he pleases, regardless.
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So when Kaleigh messages you and says "Thanks for endorsing my post", you're going to pretend it never happened? Sure, I guess you could, but to ME that seems a tad silly. ;)
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So when Kaleigh messages you and says "Thanks for endorsing my post", you're going to pretend it never happened? Sure, I guess you could, but to ME that seems a tad silly. ;)
In a case like this, to be quite honest, Malcolm would ask what you are talking about. Unless he vocalizes an endorsement, he didn't endorse anything. (Because if he doesn't have something to hold him accountable to that endorsement, then the endorsement is worthless by the very fact that he cannot prove he did it).
Malcolm has, from the time of his creation, always stood for honesty and integrity. Anything he does, he will take account for and do his absolute best to ensure that he could prove his actions in order to be held accountable to them. Whether that be to his benefit or his detriment.
I understand it's a bit of a stretch, but to be honest, having "like" buttons on a bunch of open debate forums in a dark, cutthroat setting like New Eden is pretty much silly to begin with.
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So when I provide a screenshot to you and the public declaring your support for my message, what then? Would I be accused of blurring the boundaries of IC/OOC behavior?
Mind you, I'm not singling you out for some devious purpose Malcolm, you just happen to be a convenient example of the insanity that people go to to AVOID player interaction when the opportunity presents itself. I guarantee you there will be discussions about the like button in-character, and you (and others who think as you do) may be forced to deny its utter existence.
It doesn't make you wrong or me right, but personally, I just consider it another tool, or opportunity to interact with others. I don't want the vision of a grim-dark world to include isolation either. :(
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I'd say it's OOC.
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I'd say it's IC on IGS posts and OOC on other EVE-O forums. But it's possible to +1 an enemy for at least being the sort of enemy you can have a proper argument with.
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I have used it one or two times until now because I felt bad not to award this back to people that did this to me in the first place... :oops:
But I will probably sound like an ingrate and say this is over. I do not support nor condone that kind of facebook thingy and will therefore not use it, and even ignore it as much as I can.
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So when I provide a screenshot to you and the public declaring your support for my message, what then? Would I be accused of blurring the boundaries of IC/OOC behavior?
No, I wouldn't accuse you of blurring the lines at all. If you went that obnoxiously far about it, I'd probably just make an IC post about disregarding it with an OOC disclaimer and then never "like" anything you typed again.
If people want to be that obnoxious about it and begin using it as an "IC tool" for promoting turning it into a "let's be buddies! I'll like you and you like me!" cabbage patch babies group toy, then I'll simply stop using it altogether.
Not being hostile, just making my point clear. It's an OOC mechanic and I don't see any reason to try using it from an IC perspective and if someone wants to be obnoxious about it and claim that my "liking" their post meant I was "endorsing" what they said, they'll simply never get another "like" from me. The last thing this game needs a stupid mechanic to help form even more cliques.
I think it's funny that you meantion "the INSANITY people go through to avoid player interaction" because that IS blurring IC/OOC. Players shouldn't be interacting on IC forums, characters should. If you want to interact with me as a player, use backstage, an OOC chat channel, Ventrillo or any of the other available methods to do it, but keep player interaction out of my IC forums. It's irritating enough already that it exists so that a silly conversation like this one is even possible. Besides, you're talking about "player interaction" and then trying to say that it's an IC device - that's not "player interaction" that's "charaacter interaction." I'm the one talking about player interaction and how it should stay OOC.
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Ugh...and reading my above post, I realize it probably sounded a lot more hostile than I meant it. That's what happens when I'm responding while low on sleep and irritated with something else.
Sorry Kaleigh, I'm not trying to be hostile toward you, I was trying to make a point and could've chosen slightly less confrontational words to do it. :(
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I miss IC Ventrilo.
Okay, I've only been on an IC Ventrilo once (the audio channel run during the Malkalen Incident), but it was a lot of fun.
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I consider it OOC.
These likes go for the IC section as well as the OOC section. This is the reason why you can't say that a character is well liked by the amount of 'likes' in a mostly OOC board. Also I would want to use this feature to like posts from "enemies" when they're well-written.
As far as "shying away from player interaction" goes I can't help but grin. You can like an in-character post made by a character via character interaction - consequently called roleplaying - such as posting on the IGS, dropping it in conversation or writing an IC mail to complement.
This surely is a better way than just clicking a button. It requires more effort, too, and is therefore considered to be more honest by me.
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I can only recommend not to put too much value into the total sum of "likes" any character or player has - the sum usually means very little, as these like/reputation/+1 features are used in very different ways, and some people just "like" everything their friends say. Putting too much value into the sum means encouraging people to just "like" everything regardless of post value to endorse their friends. (The effects of reputation systems etc. are very interesting to watch on various forums...)
On the other hand, I really like such features to provide a "thank you for this post" feature. Some posts are very well-written, good RP, and I want to give some positive feedback to those players without having to write an OOC EVE mail every time going "oh, I liked your post there".
As someone mentioned, IC "endorsement" of posts is such a great opportunity to generate actual RP interaction that I wouldn't want to miss it. Though I guess having both an IC and OOC "like" button would be nice. On the other hand, that would get kind of complicated...
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I treat my one and only like as OOC. Thanks, Mal.
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No, I wouldn't accuse you of blurring the lines at all. If you went that obnoxiously far about it, I'd probably just make an IC post about disregarding it with an OOC disclaimer and then never "like" anything you typed again.
If people want to be that obnoxious about it and begin using it as an "IC tool" for promoting turning it into a "let's be buddies! I'll like you and you like me!" cabbage patch babies group toy, then I'll simply stop using it altogether.
I bolded the part that I'm replying to, just for clarity, as I didn't want to rip out sentences from your response.
The like button can be just as an effective tool for showing support for someone's message as a reply to the comment. It doesn't necessarily have to be lovey dovey; it could be just a pleasant and private way of saying "I agree with your point. Well said." This is a mature and private response that I think some characters utilize in-character to voice silent support. In other words, its presence doesn't necessarily have to be antithetical to the theme of EVE. Honestly, I think the backlash against the tool is rooted more in PLAYER's preconceptions about the implementation of the LIKE tool, based on prior experiences with it in the world of FACEBOOK. So when people look at the LIKE tool here, they say, "Oh god, its facebook in space. fuck this! NOT IN MY EVE!"
Now granted, you may not have any experience with Facebook and my point may not represent your feelings, but I think the general sentiment still hits on target. My point is the TOOL can still be utilized positively in-character, and I don't think it should be tossed aside as OOC so easily.
I think it's funny that you meantion "the INSANITY people go through to avoid player interaction" because that IS blurring IC/OOC. Players shouldn't be interacting on IC forums, characters should. If you want to interact with me as a player, use backstage, an OOC chat channel, Ventrillo or any of the other available methods to do it, but keep player interaction out of my IC forums. It's irritating enough already that it exists so that a silly conversation like this one is even possible. Besides, you're talking about "player interaction" and then trying to say that it's an IC device - that's not "player interaction" that's "charaacter interaction." I'm the one talking about player interaction and how it should stay OOC.
I often hear and see on these boards and throughout EVE 'my character wouldn't do this' or 'my character wouldn't do that', and I always see players using this excuse to avoid participating in projects. That's fine, this is the player's prerogative. YOU, the player behind Malcom, have final say in the character's behavior. Why? Because the character cannot function without your fingers moving. It's the players motive to remain true to the character when interacting, not the character's final decision to remain true to themselves.
What I'm saying to YOU the player is that YOU the player have a choice as to whether to make IGS like buttons IC or OOC. My entire point behind this discussion is that EVERYONE ELSE also has this choice to make, and there WILL BE situations where people will misinterpret each other's likes as either IC or OOC, and there WILL be discrepancies. Just understand that not everyone agrees with your position, such as myself. Am I going to use it ever to engage characters/players? Probably not, but others might. :o
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I press the "like" button on things which I thought would provide interesting opportunities for people to rp with.
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A valid clarification, Kaleigh and thank you for not taking my original tone too much to heart.
I personally don't have any experience with Facebook, I avoid that site like the plague. But you are right, others probably use it quite frequently and so their experiences would be related, I had not thought of that.
Like a lot of things in EVE when it comes to RP, it's really going to come down to how we, as a community, choose to perceive it as a greater whole. Since it's not like CCP is going to come forward and declare "The Like button is an OOC feature and should not be considered IC." We agree wholeheartedly that it's going to come down to individual player perceptions.
A point on the "my character would or wouldn't do this" comments. You are correct, and it's a point I've made before, that a character is a lifeless, inanimate thing without the player behind it and that it is the player's choice to stick to their perception of what their character would or wouldn't do. For some of us, this distinction is easy, for others it isn't. There have been several times that I, as a player, have wanted to do something but didn't because my character simply wouldn't do it. (This is most commonly seen when I played Raze and specifically opted out of several fleet and militia operations because they clashed with Raze's "defense only" philosophy. In the end, it is me deciding to uphold Raze's viewpoints, but the scope is that Raze, the character, wouldn't participate and chooses not to, not that I, the player wouldn't.
If people choose to use the "like" function as an in-character endorsement, I would probably offer the same justification to them as my OOC justification. That being that Malcolm would argue that it isn't an "endorsement" it's a "I thought this was a very well constructed post and could respect it, even if I disagree with it" in most cases.
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You are aware that you can see who "likes" your posts, right?
Well that changes the equation a tad.
I haven't explored it very thoroughly it seems :D
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It's important to note you can see who likes your posts.
Other people cannot see who likes your posts, only the number of times a specific post has been liked and how many likes a person has received.
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if you get more than 3 or so likes for a post it just shows 2 names "and x others liked your post"
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I think my concern with it is that it's publicly visible and therefore runs the risk of becoming a sort of popularity contest. I recall last time the forums went live there was some light competition to see who could get the most 'likes' - a competition 'won' by certain [disrepectful slur self-editted] players in majror nullsec alliances. It had nothing to do with whether you posted anything good, just how many friends you had.
So while I can appreciate its value as Kaleigh has pointed out, overall I think it's... bleh. More potential downsides than upsides.
As for IC vs OOC... eh, it's kinda like in the game. Everything in space is IC. If some nullsec [edit] has a thousand+ likes, it's because there really are that many people that 'like' her (or at least like listening to her on comms). As for liking someone's IC post of OOC reasons... *shrug* handwave it, or use an unknown alt, or deal with comlimenting people on their well-reasoned and eloquent posts before pointing out how very wrong they are.
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The like button can be just as an effective tool for showing support for someone's message as a reply to the comment. It doesn't necessarily have to be lovey dovey; it could be just a pleasant and private way of saying "I agree with your point. Well said." This is a mature and private response that I think some characters utilize in-character to voice silent support. In other words, its presence doesn't necessarily have to be antithetical to the theme of EVE.
I will probably sound like a cynical bittervet, but I do think that this is probably not the case for the majority of the people roaming on the IGS. This whole thing is ruled by the OOC boundaries of who is friend with who and just rating their friends with a +1 for whatever they say, like Arkady said, and to my eyes the rest being at best, anecdotal.
It is maybe ok for the rest of the eve forums, where everyone is melted into the mass of the playerbase, but on the RP forums, we are a little community where everyone almost knows everyone else.
Edit : oh well, what Vic said.
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If I ever were to use the IGS, I'd use the function IC.
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I'd say it's OOC.
I have to say I'm surprised by this stance, Rodj.
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In the IGS I use it as a means of 'liking' a post that my character would like. Quality of posting does not really enter into it, nor does the level of amusement it gives me as a player. I don;t see the need to click 'like' on many threads about Intaki or Caldari politics, since my character could not give a toss about them. Even though I may have enjoyed reading them myself. In a way we have things like Facebook in real life and the like button concept and the Google+ version of +1 has emerged for reasons. I don't see why such reasons would not exist in eve either so I see no need to view it totally as ooc.
I understand people might want to click the like button to to encourage better forum posting habits, but I personally don't see it being effective in encouragement since other people click it for different reasons, myself being one of those other people.
Of course anywhere else on the forum I click it when I agree with a subject or a post gave me a giggle.
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If I ever were to use the IGS, I'd use the function IC.
This. If I were to pres butan, I'd be doing it IC on the IGS. Elsewhere would be different.
I supposedly have a like here or there, but I've only posted to the new forum once. And despite being logged in and having notifications and stuff turned on, I still can't see any of that info. :s
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I can begin to see the merit of using it as an IC function.
I still feel it is primarily OOC myself, but I guess that may or may not change in the future.
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Heh, I just noticed that the "likes" under the profile names are the total likes the character has accumulated, not how many likes they earned from that one post. I guess they really are trying to encourage forum warfare and popularity contests.
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Right, which was my original issue with it. :(
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The majority of my likes are IC, and I assume that a like is from the PC and not necessarily the player.
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I endorse your necroposting of Malcolm and Kaleigh guests forms.
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in my opinion...
OOC, always OOC...
if it was IC, and enforced as such, certain individuals would have far less, and others far more...
Not only that, I think the likes are across all the boards, so if you get 100 likes in the like and get likes thread. you look popular on the IGS
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I endorse your necroposting of Malcolm and Kaleigh guests forms.
Why thank you. :)
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I'm liking all these threads being dug up so people who maybe hadn't seen them before have a chance to check them out.