Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Zuzanna Alondra on 21 Apr 2010, 15:15
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Role playing romantic relationships is one of the most interesting and complicated things in any role playing community.
Lately however there it has seemed to me that I have observed, like the poster of the original thread, that there seems to be a strangely large amount of couples that are lesbian, cross-faction or both when compared to their counter-parts. (Where's the straight and gay couples?)
It made me pause and wonder - alot of female characters are played by men - does this go back to the joke from the girls locker room that men love watching two girls together?
The idea made me wonder as well what type of other relationships are in the RP community from what I see day to day?
Seriphyn mentioned a few ideas that seem to be missing to his knowledge:
- Powerful Amarrian married couples, a Holder wife and husband who wield power over their domain as king and queen?
- Controversial Gallentean sweethearts, the focus of much fame and media attention. A war hero and his celebrity wife? An older, rich Gallentean businessman with a far too young model for a spouse?
- A Matari clan chief and priestess, being beacons of example and role models for the youth of their clan?
- A married Caldari couple with equal standing as the dastardly duo go from place to place striking deals and trades with various entities?
I personally know of a few "traditional" (I hate that word sometimes) couples if you will, male-female same race. But they keep to themselves.
This also brings up the other idea of is alot of romance role play us as the players just playing out our own hidden fantasies? I know myself historically have been a very quiet person who unfortunately early in my young adult life was told, "If you get a man worked up enough that he wants it - it's cruel to tell them no." and therefore had always wanted to be able to be in a relationship where I felt very much in control.
This naturally lead to finding great enjoyment in at least trying to play characters that relationship wise are very assertive when they decide they want someone. It also lead me to making the mild OOC meta-gaming move of avoiding having Zu get "attached" to women - as I personally like my boys - even if Zu very well might on her own been bisexual.
I also historically personally felt leery of letting my characters get involved with people where I know the player is single and looking or people that I didn't mesh with well on an OOC level - even if my character might of adored them.
Food for thought - add some salt folks.
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I admit to slight metagaming in this area. Note that I have not engaged in this sort of RP in EVE, though I have in other games like SWG, so my comments about my own experiences should be seen in that light. Casiella actually has hacked her implant to, erm, take care of her needs from time to time and shuns any sort of relationship. I might someday explore this with an alt, however.
First, I have never RPed an IC same-sex relationship. I'm just not comfortable with that for myself, though I've had IG friends in all sorts of RP configurations and I even frequently do not know (nor care) about the other player's RL gender or orientation. Despite Evanda once assuming that, being a G.I.R.L., I was almost certainly playing a lesbian, that's not so.
Second, after some bad experiences, I generally do not like any sort of relationship RP without a good bit of OOC communication before. I need to make sure that everyone involved knows "RP != RL" and "IC != OOC". In other words, my character might hit on your character, and might even go further, but that doesn't mean we have any sort of relationship. I'm a happily married man with kids who intends to stay that way. Preferably, the other player is also happy in a RL committed relationship and won't misconstrue anything. The two IC relationships that felt the most "real" for me both occurred with individuals whom I knew to be in marriages, and in one case I even chatted from time to time with one of their spouses.
Finally, if the other player annoys me OOCly, there'll be no IC relationship. This doesn't contradict the previous point. It works with it. If we can't get along, then there's no point in trying to have any sort of fun together.
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Some time ago, I Roleplayed Milo in a romantic relationship with another corpmate. (Opposite Sex) It eventually culminated in a FTB near-rape incident in a cargo elevator. I was slightly worried the person I was RP'ing with wouldn't FTB, and it'd be really awkward, and probably not that pleasant.
I think many of the 'same sex' relationships in EVE are often associated with cyber and therefore the stigma and issues surrounding that.
This was during a time where the directorate were worried that RP Dramaz were happening, due to a lot of 'unrealistic' relationships, and (to my utter amazement) I was cited as a good example of a believable one.
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FTB?
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FTB?
Fade to Black
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Fade to black.
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Ah! Thank you!
Also, the known tally of 'traditional' couples is +1 if someone is keeping track as Mit is involved with a Ni-Kunni male.
:D
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Indeed, the issue is that many of these same-sex relationships have a vast amount of cyb0rs in them. It's mostly male-male player, but I have come across the odd male-female player in a same-sex female character config (there is a big trend of female players behaving bi-curiously in EVE RP). I mean, RP is RP, it should be fun, right? If people enjoy RPing that, that's ok. Just the issue is what it means for the image of EVE RP overall.
I'm sure there are plenty of straight couples in EVE RP, but I would like to see them RP more publicly? It would be nice to contribute to realism, or something...
As Casiella brought up, I think the biggest thing is the giant questionable morality that is brought up in that area. Hell, FTBing fixes a lot of these problems, and both players being male I think also fixes it....I dunno, it's one of those things we don't talk about much as RPers, but when we do, it all gets very awkward... :s
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Not to sound arrogant, but if people don't bother me with what they do in private I couldn't care less what they do.
Right now I can only think of one example of this alleged "space lesbian" relationships, and that one's so well known and, to me, annoying, that I'll happily regard it as the exception from the norm.
But then, maybe its just because the amarrian RP scene which I frequent is a lot more pious about these things, privacy and all that.
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I'm running two relationships at the moment, one M/F and the other F/M.
In both cases, the other player is female.
There is a significant amount of "fade to black" involved :D
There's also a certain amount of "Fade up from black" for the after-snuggling and relationship building conversation stuff.
I don't completely understand what Seri means by
I'm sure there are plenty of straight couples in EVE RP, but I would like to see them RP more publicly? It would be nice to contribute to realism, or something...
Do you mean that they should be doing more PDA? Or hanging out in bars where you can watch? Or just having more of a presence so people know that there are IC-hetero couples out there?
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Seri, can you elaborate on the issues of questionable morality and things you feel need 'fixing' in this area?
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Do you mean that they should be doing more PDA? Or hanging out in bars where you can watch? Or just having more of a presence so people know that there are IC-hetero couples out there?
The third thing, I think. Presence. The F/F couples roleplay everywhere in public, that's fine, but let's see some straight couples with the same amount of presence.
And I approve of FTB. cyb0rz RP has a horrid trend of destroying any other meaningful RP between players/characters. At least, talking from personal experience.
@Casiella
When a single guy ERPs with a married woman, or two married players do so, it just seems a bit dodgy? I don't know myself, I have chosen to ignore these issues and just go with it anyway :S...kinda bad idea. These moral issues seem to be alleviated with FTB and players of the same sex.
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Let me say this as politely as I possibly can.
Seri, you may wish to rethink whether the RP of others behind closed doors (whether they choose FTB or to RP more details) really should present any problems you feel anyone else should "fix". Frankly, it's none of your (or my) damn business what they do. Certainly it's not my business what you do, heh.
But I do not believe that spending time and energy worrying about other people and their approaches to RP relationships (or RL relationships, for that matter) is something useful in any sense.
I have a lot more to say here, but I can't think of how to do so within the guidelines for the site, so I'll leave it there for now.
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Why does anyone expect realism in a spaceship game? Rp should be fun, interesting, and keep those who are doing the playing intrigued.
I personally don't want a normal boring relationship in RP. Thats what real life is for. ;)
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If you checked out RP in more public channels, you will see that these issues aren't necessarily private. If they were, it wouldn't have been brought up. Hell, I think even Verone came out in the OOC channel with similar views one time...
@Shalee. Point, but some of this stuff turns me off. F/F couples? Great. F/F couples making out in a bar channel? Not great. In fact, the same goes with M/F couples. Like that IRL too. Get a room! :lol:
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Even taking out the "behind closed doors" stuff... here, I'm referring mostly to your opinions as to the "dodginess" of ERP / cybersex when one or more of the players is married.
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Though it is a valid point, Casi.
Edit: To expound on that. It is a valid point to bring up, and it is a concern of many people, so there is no reason to not talk about it, as there may be individuals that this affects. I think he brought it up in a fairly tactful manner.
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Well Seriphyn, if its such a problem, why do you visit those venues or don't just tell them to take the proverbial room :) I know I would - and Laerise as well... although she'd be more vocal about it. :lol:
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I actually find it amusing the idea of wanting to see more straight couples publicly - because alot of the time - how would you know they were a straight couple, bi or otherwise if there wasn't a PDA.
My alt's boyfriend and her have gone into public and if you watched *real* careful you might of caught that he knows how she likes her coffee without asking and that when she enters a room she will sit by him. Not in his lap, or leaning over him, just next to him.
That's also two Matari together - but they don't count as "normal" to me due to the fact the guy is considerably older then her and when they first met he was a father figure to her. Wasn't it Freudian theory that said little girls want to marry their daddy?
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haha. Laerise so would.
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haha. Laerise so would.
Excuse me...?
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Relationships?! COOTIES!
I dunno, they're just things to spark more RP and enrich your character. But yes, they can get extremely complicated. I'm all for IC drama that's fun, but I've seen silly things happen OOC too and it makes me go T_T.
On that note, there *are* a lot of space lesbians. wtf.
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On that note, there *are* a lot of space lesbians. wtf.
Lol, and I can't say this without getting modded :D
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It's not that you said that, more the other extra stuff you added after that which resulted in said modding. :P
I'll add my 2 ISK in a bit after I've had some time to think about it.
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[mod]Topic split to: here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=273.0) in the Speakeasy [/mod]
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Just the issue is what it means for the image of EVE RP overall.
I don't have problem with the image of Eve being that it's full of lesbians?
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The image of EVE RP from folks outside the game (and many inside) is basically "you're... a ship?"
Sexual orientation, along with everything else, basically seems to fall by the wayside. Every RPer I know outside of EVE says exactly the same thing.
"So... we can't, like... leave the ship?"
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The image of EVE RP from folks outside the game (and many inside) is basically "you're... a ship?"
Sexual orientation, along with everything else, basically seems to fall by the wayside. Every RPer I know outside of EVE says exactly the same thing.
"So... we can't, like... leave the ship?"
As for me, I consider in-character interactions on forums as well as in in-game channels as the "out of the ship" role play. On the ILF forum and on the Eluetharian Guard forums, I've participated in some interactive storytelling RP that was fantastic.
In the Catacombs version of this thread, someone mentioned Saxon's marriage as being "traditional." This is true and has been revealed in a number of places. However, Saxon's wife is not a capsuleer so you won't see her showing up in any public channels.
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I can see Seriph's issue. While far be it from me to judge on whether you're FTB or not (Far, far, FAR... Let's leave it at that) the issue of relationships IRL is a valid issue to be discussed. There is a bunch of emotional commitment that goes into a relationship that can be broken for reasons which don't have anything (Or at least very little) to do with emotions. How many think that the Executive's feelings towards the secretary are more emotional than "I'm stressed and you've got just... A great pair of buttocks, let's get nasty"? Alright, now how many of you think that the executive's wife will accept that as an excuse when she walks into his office unnanounced to find him and Jennifer halfway through a bottle of marmalade and pipe cleaners scattered all over the desk?
Naturally there's a considerable difference between having a brain-bleach-reaching affair with your secretary and talking dirty with some guy or gal in sweden via a chatroom, but it can still be seen as a violation of whatever unwritten and ridiculously vague contract you two signed when you started going steady/moved in together/married. This is even true if the 'relationship' you're RPing out is entirely non-sexual or just FTB. In some cases in can be especially true, since your partner might decide that if there's no sex imperative then it's an entirely emotional thing (Whether this is true or not) and feel even more betrayed.
Or they could just shake their head and say 'I'm dating a nerd', maybe laugh at you a bit, then move on. Depends on their attitude and general understanding of how RPing relationships can work.
Ultimately my opinion would be that whatever's been cleared with your partner is just fine, but if you're keeping the 'relationship' a secret then it's a little dodgy. I personally don't engage in completely IC romances at all short of some comedic or plot-driven element (But in the latter case I prefer alts/NPCs) because it's not my gig, and don't engage in OOC or OOC/IC mix romances long distance because of logistics issues.
And on the space lesbians aspect: Simple answer is a combination of the following facts
1) It's not all that unusual for men to play women, especially when the only necessary effect on the RP is a pretty avatar on their bio page. Especially especially when the character introduction page notes that the only difference is how others treat you, and knowing that women are generally treated more nicely online than men.
2) These men will rarely be interested in imagining their female characters lusting over a male. If they choose to be in a relationship, it'll be with their actual preferred gender: Female.*
3) Along with the above, lesbians are hot. If it's only an FTB relationship/they're scarily good at getting in character, they'll be willing to overlook the fact that the person behind the avatar is male.
4) Females, by contract, seem to very rarely choose male characters unless they're trying to pass for men OOC. The contrast might be indicative of which is the superior gender, but who knows.
5) Females tend to be more emotionally based than sexually based when compared to men, so if they choose for their characters to be in a relationship it'll be based more based on personality than gender when compared to men.
6) Along with the above, since most 'girls' in eve are played by men it's easy for straight females to ignore the fact that the character theirs is draped over is female when the person behind that character is male. Assuming they have any issue with that in a purely IC relationship in the first place.
*Obviously doesn't apply to gay men. I'm not interested in rewording/making an entire section to deal with my lack of forethought right now, so use your imagination.
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I can see Seriph's issue. While far be it from me to judge on whether you're FTB or not (Far, far, FAR... Let's leave it at that) the issue of relationships IRL is a valid issue to be discussed. There is a bunch of emotional commitment that goes into a relationship that can be broken for reasons which don't have anything (Or at least very little) to do with emotions.
To be clear: I do agree that the issue merits discussion. I don't agree that it merits discussion of the type where one says, "players who RP as X are immoral heathens," whether X = "cybersex" or X = "slavers" or X = "drug dealers".
Sure, even those other things raise interesting discussion points. I just believe that calling out other players is a non-starter. Perhaps Seri didn't intend to sound like that, and I've known him just well enough to know he occasionally doesn't quite mean what he actually says. At any rate, I do sort of get suspicious when any player says, "oh people who do X in a game are bad people". :)
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@Casiella
When a single guy ERPs with a married woman, or two married players do so, it just seems a bit dodgy? I don't know myself, I have chosen to ignore these issues and just go with it anyway :S...kinda bad idea. These moral issues seem to be alleviated with FTB and players of the same sex.
Underlines added to draw attention, though it seems a bit more demanding than I wanted. Whatever.
I'm not sure that Seri was talking about cybering in general so much as the fidelity of someone who's in an IRL relationship engaging in an ERP relationship, which is what I was responding to. If I'm right then it's less an issue of "People who RP as X are jerks" and more of a meta-game discussion.
Though of course I could be wrong and he could in fact be trying to launch a moral crusade against erotic role play overall, in which case I wag my finger.
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Well, yes, but my point remains, just with a slight condition on X. I don't think the conversation starts off well by immediately calling into question the moral standing of other players, do you? :)
Again, Seri may not have intended it quite in that way, but it certainly read that way to me.
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Well if they didn't want to be called on it, they shouldn't be such filthy heathen dogs :roll:
:twisted:
Seriously though, agreed. We're trying to make this a place of level headed discussion if I'm not mistaken, and that will involve thinking about each statement at least twice. Quid pro quo, Sereeph, quid quo pro.
Is going to hell forever for contrived and ill-fitting movie references.
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@Casiella
When a single guy ERPs with a married woman, or two married players do so, it just seems a bit dodgy? I don't know myself, I have chosen to ignore these issues and just go with it anyway :S...kinda bad idea. These moral issues seem to be alleviated with FTB and players of the same sex.
This is even true if the 'relationship' you're RPing out is entirely non-sexual or just FTB. In some cases in can be especially true, since your partner might decide that if there's no sex imperative then it's an entirely emotional thing (Whether this is true or not) and feel even more betrayed.
Just re-quoting what sounds word for word like a conversation held over the dinner table at my house more then once.
The results of that conversation turning out to say, "You can read all the romance novels and erotic porn you want hun... " because of the reason Jakiin mentioned.
But he knows I love my RP and finally realized it's just fun and started playing with me (not in Eve) as mentioned in Miz's little thread about sexual lifestyles where Havo quoted me for posterity. (The big bully - I should have deleted the post faster or not posted it here - rather PM'd Miz... *teases*)
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Well, I'll throw my 2ISK in as a "space lesbian™" RPer.
OOC, I'm a conservative WASP. I roleplay in any game to stretch my mind, Inara is actually the first female character I've ever RPed as. My intent when I started RPing with her was to be very different from myself, force myself to see things from a perspective I don't typically use. There's only a few things that Inara and I actually agree on, and even those things are for very different reasons.
There was no intent on making her a "space lesbian™", that just happened through RP. I had her react to the situation as I felt she would react. And for the record, she's just 'not picky' about gender.
If it was about 'wish fulfillment' I promise I wouldn't be playing as a female character ;).
EDIT: FTB is my best friend in all RP relationships. Conversation leading up to FTB are important, and after I go get something to eat and whatnot, the after FTB conversations are important. I don't need to write out or read what my characters do in the bedroom.
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Whether or not it's Wish Fulfillment RP depends on the players behind the characters, not the actions other characters see during public RP. It, like almost all other RP, stands and falls on IC/OoC separation. What would your character do? Miz herself fell for Misan Pal'taek. Someone very different from herself, in so many ways. (Not that I know of anyone who matches Miz, for that matter). She pursued Misan for quite a while, and she was obvious in her intent and desire. After a couple of months, or more, can't recall... She managed to fell her prey.
Gender had nothing to do with it. Personality was the key. Miz and Misan's views and ways moved against eachother will strike sparks and be rather... abrasive. Miz was fascinated by the few similarities and the other stark opposites. This means that to Miz, Misan was an enormously interesting person. Of course, that she was aesthetically pleasing didn't hurt either, but Misan could have been a battlescarred Brutor male for that matter, as long as the personality remained. Same interest.
Personally, from the players point of view? I'd never go for someone like Misan. Too... rogueish. Too shady and willing to make compromises for various reasons. Not my cup of tea. Hardly wish fulfillment RP there, don't you agree?
I can't speak for others, but I believe a lot of the 'spaec lezbiunz' RP have nothing to do with wish fulfillment or fapping men. It's roleplaying, and good RP at that, if there's more to it than '/me starts making pflblblblfft noises between your legs.'
By all means, do the ERP. That can be great characterization and relationship RP too. Just make sure there's a little more to it than that.
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I don't have a problem with the thought of space lesbians.
I do have a problem with people trying to RP romances that just wouldn't happen with their characters (ie public cross-factional ones).
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I don't have a problem with the thought of space lesbians.
I do have a problem with people trying to RP romances that just wouldn't happen with their characters (ie public cross-factional ones).
At least they have a strangely comedic value... or had, until it aparentl became fashionable :|
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I do have a problem with people trying to RP romances that just wouldn't happen with their characters (ie public cross-factional ones).
O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?
Deny thy father and refuse thy name;
Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
And I'll no longer be a Capulet.
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.
tl:dr: Cross-factional love does happen. However, let's not forget the last line of the play:
"For never was a story of more woe Than this of Juliet and her Romeo."
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"Cross-factional romance" shouldn't even present an issue in every single case. I don't think most folks will give a flip about a Brutor male and a Jin-Mei female, for example, or a Sebiestor punk chick and some Gallente stallion.
As my RL marriage crosses national and racial boundaries, I fail to understand why "cross-factional" relationships "just wouldn't happen," particularly among a social class that has power and wealth beyond most any other individuals in the cluster.
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Indeed. I don't see a problem with cross-factional relationships. I see a problem with cross-ideological and cross-hostile boundaries relationships. Matari freedomfighter/ex-slave whatever, shacking up with a Holder for instance. Caldari Navy zealot/loyalist/whatever shacking up with a Gurista Pirate. That kind of thing.
And more importantly, what does get a bit annoying is that people don't react to such things much. "Oh, it's their RP, and pointing it out could mean inconvenience in my own RP. Better not mention it."
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Indeed. I don't see a problem with cross-factional relationships. I see a problem with cross-ideological and cross-hostile boundaries relationships. Matari freedomfighter/ex-slave whatever, shacking up with a Holder for instance. Caldari Navy zealot/loyalist/whatever shacking up with a Gurista Pirate. That kind of thing.
And more importantly, what does get a bit annoying is that people don't react to such things much. "Oh, it's their RP, and pointing it out could mean inconvenience in my own RP. Better not mention it."
Thats exactly what I meant, apologies for not being 100% clear. :)
Edit (added new content follows) :
Regarding the later statement, some of the most interresting and lasting RP arcs I got involved in came about exactly because it was not convenient for either party - which imnsho makes for a much better IC motivator than happy bunny land :P
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I have no plans of letting Myyona engage in any kind of romantic or sexual relationship with any gender as I quite frankly have no time for that with all the other stuff I do in this game. Also, another important IC reason ties into Myyona's actual situation: Unlike many others, Myyona's original body has never been destroyed* but are in stasis at a medical station. The only clone jumping Myyona ever did was not because of death but to preserve this original body. I cannot really imagine how she must feel when visiting her self, looking at the physical scars and bruises from her childhood, in another body. She keeps telling her self that the current body is only temporary at that one day, when everything is over, she will go back to her real self, make family and die of old age.
I generally feel the introduction of jump clones, while being a nice game feature, screwed up a lot of the philosophy regarding death and recloning. I guess that is why I have never seen a chronicle touch that subject.
*: assuming pod pilots do not have their body destroyed during training time at the academy.
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Though, I think Jowen has a wife and maybe even children. With all the time he spends at stations and managing production and research efforts he has plenty of time for that. Though, what ever he does in station when I am not around is really not any of my business. ;)
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To stir a different view outside of romance - since not all wishes are romantic -
How much are we playing out other desires - or fears in our lives?
Zu made a comment early in her career as a pod pilot on the IGS that she would rather throw herself on a chair and miscarry then have a child born into slavery - which immedately got me several concerned folks who had heard I was pregunaunt and wondered if I had miscarried (Lisa's 6 wks old and squirming in my arms as I'm trying to type and the reason I rarely undock as much as I would like anymore)
Little known fact Zu had lost a child to the boy being born premature and having bad lungs for it. But in the birth she lost so much blood she nearly died herself and her uterus was damaged bad enough she had been told she was barren (unless she had a death wish of course).
I could easily in hindsight argue with myself that this was me putting in a character quirk as a way with dealing with my fears associated with carrying a child myself. Zu at char gen was barren - I was trying to get pregnant and having little luck. Then over time as I developed her I came up with the why. Did I realize at the time I was reflecting my own fears? No - but I was.
Side bit - I hear a few folks they weren't fulfilling OOC wishes - which also brings in mind the idea of what things do we "let" our characters do that is the most unlike us to try to stay true to the character?
I know I personally have had Zu get in rather heated "chats" with Havohej about different things the corp has done even though I OOCly helped think it up. I've had a character say NO to an idea that I thought was brilliant OOCly because she would say no.
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In a wider sense, Casi is wish fulfillment. Cybernetically enhanced hacker and researcher who can live forever, travel faster than light, talk with her mind, research technologies of which we can only dream, and work for a secret government intelligence agency for Freedom and Liberty, while simultaneously working for a high-tech organized crime syndicate?
Um. Yeah.
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In such a harsh and brutal universe where no one can be trusted, and the essential imperitive to reproduce has been subverted by pseudo-immortality, one could argue that finding anyone in this god-forsaken place worth trusting beyond sharing a corporation together is quite a feat in itself. Yes, that's right, Kaleigh is one of those evil cross-factional space lesbians everyone seems to be raving about these days.
And yet what many would never know had I not brought it up is that there have been many male counterparts that I had been involved with prior to my induction into the 'rp community'. However, my more vocal roleplay relationships have involved a Sansha supporter, a Sani Sabik cultist, freespace guerilla fighter, Caldari ultranationalist, Cartel smuggler, Krusal assassin, a Matari Dominatrix, and *exhales* probably many more I've forgotten along the way.
I really give everyone a chance, but most of the male characters I interact with are not even close to 'relationship' material. I think one of the reasons playing a female character is so attractive, especially in roleplay, is that they're allowed to be dynamic- you can be the tough, badass tomboy with an attitude, the vulnerable, soft-spoken flower, or the seductive black widow. Being a male imposes a narrow spectrum of expectation from the community, which I think is largely unattractive for players wanting to experience the whole gammut of emotion. There are certain expectations of them and they aren't necessarily allowed to be vulnerable without being sensitive (if that makes any sense).
As far as ERP goes, I enjoy the experience with the right partners, and not so much with others. It's alot like the real world; some make it pleasure and others make it a job. It's all part of the package, and I wouldn't ever deny the flow of a relationship with uh...FTB?
That said, I have to admit I'm kind over the whole relationship scene. Of course, I've said that before and suddenly I find myself surprised by a well-spoken roleplayer that I click with well, and...you never know what'll happen. ;)
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Being a male imposes a narrow spectrum of expectation from the community, which I think is largely unattractive for players wanting to experience the whole gammut of emotion. There are certain expectations of them and they aren't necessarily allowed to be vulnerable without being sensitive (if that makes any sense).
I think it does, but any chance you could expand on it? I think that the 'expected' gender roles in RP in the game are worth discussing.
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Dex Nederland has a woman he loves/loved and a daughter. He has never knowingly met his daughter and if he met his former love, he would have to spend the next day in an LDPS interview room being debriefed about him knowingly coming in contact with a Hyasyoda/Corporate Police Force agent.
Dex Nederland's mother keeps track of her granddaughter by way of her contacts in the Navy's Child Care & Education System. Dex occasionally ask how his daughter is progressing.
All this leads to Dex understandably having a very closed relationship state.
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Being a male imposes a narrow spectrum of expectation from the community, which I think is largely unattractive for players wanting to experience the whole gammut of emotion. There are certain expectations of them and they aren't necessarily allowed to be vulnerable without being sensitive (if that makes any sense).
I think it does, but any chance you could expand on it? I think that the 'expected' gender roles in RP in the game are worth discussing.
People will argue against this, and I'm sure there are just tons of people that break my generalization, but I think western civilization (ie. the real world) has an impact on what is expected of men and women, and I think to a degree that carries over into our roleplay. Men are expected to be manly, egotistical, idealistic, protectors, and warriors, and too egotistical to show weakness. Thanks to feminism, women can be any of those things AND show weakness and humility if so desired, without negative connotation. Consider the double-standard on homosexuality in a male-dominated culture and you see why lesbians (and women in general) are preferred over men.
While I believe the capsule technology makes for a great sexual equalizer, not all of the societies our characters originated from enjoyed such ambiguity. Granted the Federation is probably the best at espousing sexual equality, the Jin Mei would be a huge exception to that rule following traditions passed down from the beginning of their civilization (and only now disrupted thanks to their introduction to liberal gallentean values). Minmatar tribal traditions encourage a patriarchial and polygomous society that's discriminatory (voluvial markings determine your fate), not unlike their Amarrian foes.
The point is, as much as we're told there are no differences in gender, I think we all know there are, even if its just society's impression on us. I think if we're conscious of that, and aware of our own interpretations of our character's origins, our approach to relationships might be more...realistic to us and others that look in.
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Is there stuff about the inequality for the Jin Mei and the Minmatar somewhere? From what I've seen, gender equality seems to be nearly universal (unlikely though that is - CCP position from the start, though, I think?), but I might have missed references, or things that indirectly implied the structures of some of these societies?
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I've always found this a difficult topic. On the one hand, FTB is what you get to see in your average movie these days, so why not in RP? On the other hand it is more personal than watching a movie. And to take another movie analogy, the obligatory romance / sex scene can seriously spoil a good plot.
It is a funny thing that murder, theft and so forth are perfectly acceptable roleplay, but relationships / sex still are either taboo, or not taboo enough (openly flaunting about it to be provocative or get attention), and it can get mighty complicated when you look past the characters.
I personally disapprove of people doing it as an escape from their own relationship, especially if the partner does not know about it in a steady relationship. HTFU and deal with your real life first. The reverse case, where a partner is very restrictive or jealous is also a case where talking is advised though, because in a healthy relationship this shouldn't be an issue.
I've taken a stance in the past where I told corp members to keep their shit private, not because of what they did, but because it was being part of a bigger drama spiral making everyone feel bad both in and out of character. And if RP no matter what the topic is causes personal distress for some involved, that is where I draw the line.
To conclude, I can't totally shake off the feeling that two men roleplaying women and getting it on is wrong. Maybe because I was raised rather conservatively, or maybe I simply don't understand it as a woman. Annoying, since I do consider myself to be open-minded.
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I have to admit I have found the space lesbians phenomenon a bit stomach-twisty at times. My early days in Eve were littered with sexist jibes, godmode cyber and continuous rape jokes that made me feel really, really uncomfortable and being bi myself, it felt (and I stress this is a personal impression) a lot like in every possible arena, women were being held up as fap fodder and nothing else and one or two women, I perceived as playing into it and essentially encouraging behaviour that was making my time online into hell.
It's been a lot of years since then. I've grown a thicker skin and reached a sort of mindset where I'll crusade happily for things I need in my gaming headspace, but not out of some need to "protect all women players" and whatnot. Other women can make their own decisions or I'm just as bad as some of the people I might complain about.
So these days, if people want to play something they consider both erotic and beautiful, why not?
Though from a setting point of view, it would be nice to see heterosexuality as not statistically nearly extinct. My quip to Kudon was basically meant to be a joke on what has sometimes felt to me like a setting cliche. "Hi, I'm a guy about to play a female character." "Orilly? You're a lesbian then?"
My views have become similar on the subject of cyber, something else I started off militantly against. I knew a lot of people who had their hearts more or less crushed through too much cross-over from game to RL one way or another. FTB has a lot less risk of upsetting people (or accidentally talking porn with a minor) but basically, if you enjoy writing erotica with a partner, why not? Why, in the end, is it any of my business?
Except for purposes of teasing dibble. I reserve the right to tease dibble about being a cyb0rhound for the rest of eternity or until I find out he doesn't like it.
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When I first clicked the topic, I was expecting an EVE version of the Make-A-Wish Foundation.
*puts that idea aside for later use*
My early days in Eve were littered with sexist jibes, godmode cyber and continuous rape jokes that made me feel really, really uncomfortable and being bi myself, it felt (and I stress this is a personal impression) a lot like in every possible arena, women were being held up as fap fodder and nothing else and one or two women, I perceived as playing into it and essentially encouraging behaviour that was making my time online into hell.
I've hit that wall in every online game I've touched. The rape jokes are the worst and a quick trip to ignore and reporting; why did that suddenly become so "cool"? I just hope I don't make trouble for you when I pipe out a quick dirty comment in our OOC channel.
Spaaaaaaaace Lesbians: Maybe it's because of my absence from the game; maybe it's because I'm in such a relationship IRL and don't really pay attention to it in-game; maybe it's because of the small cluster of people I orbit in the game; but I've not really seen it to any outstanding degree in EVE compared to any other place I've had online RP.
To FTB or not to FTB; that is the question: Both methods, if you even choose to enter the physical relationship side of RP, have their pros and cons. I see it as something that needs to be decided between the players involved for themselves - the thought police stuff is for the Black Eagles and Provists; we players shouldn't try to assume that role.
I look at my RP with one big question in mind, "How can I make it the most fun for everyone?" I have a trust in everyone else to consider the other player(s). Everyone I know personally here does. So, whether you FTB and then go pew pew rats with the player of your IC lover to pass the time or act out calling down the Amarrian god, it's usually a safe bet in the interests of "everyone" to handle all of that behind closed doors. But, the question becomes, "How much is too much for public consumption?" Affectionate talk? Flirting? Resting against? Holding hands? Pecks on the cheek? A proper kiss? What intensity of a proper kiss? On and on. Each of us will draw the line at a different point.
I think a lot of the problem in both cases comes from a difference between personal tastes. As an example, Player A thinks they're portraying something "dangerous, sexy, and proudly uninhibited" with their overt emotes and IGS love letters. They may think they're adding a needed "edge" by making it so public. On the other side, Player B is thinking, "I don't see how you're acting in the same way you do. You can do unrestrained sexy-rawr without shoving it up my nose." And, that difference in playstyle will always be the self-feeding nature of the beast for topics like this and why they appear regularly on so many RP-related forums.
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Though from a setting point of view, it would be nice to see heterosexuality as not statistically nearly extinct. My quip to Kudon was basically meant to be a joke on what has sometimes felt to me like a setting cliche. "Hi, I'm a guy about to play a female character." "Orilly? You're a lesbian then?"
There are guys playing hetero women out there...
(And indeed, women playing hetero men)
One of the reasons my female character is hetero is that I think I have a fairly good grasp on the whole het relationship, and can make plausible decisions about what they're thinking and how they behave.
I don't feel confident that I could play a lesbian with more depth than a caricature, which is part of why I avoid it.
(Ciarente, this is not your cue :)
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One of the reasons my female character is hetero is that I think I have a fairly good grasp on the whole het relationship, and can make plausible decisions about what they're thinking and how they behave.
I don't feel confident that I could play a lesbian with more depth than a caricature, which is part of why I avoid it.
Me too, man. My females are hetero because I believe I've got a fairly good grasp on what it means to be a heterosexual woman, even if I don't understand their obsession with shoes (my characters -- though Celeste does occasionally step into brightly colored stilleto-heeled pumps -- tend to wear sensible ones).
I'm pretty sure I'd be stressing the b in subtle if I tried playing a genuinely lesbian character. Possibly even giving it an umlaut.
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Once me and eva tried out making two gay dude alts for some innocent rp lulz.
Started out shakey, ended pretty awesome. Some people actually rped along with us as well. Others were disgusted I think. Prolly cuz my alt kept shamelessly flirting with anything that moved. xD
But I don't worry about that shit with the Izzeh. The Izzeh is just the Izzeh. Everyone else has cooties.
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But you promised yourself to me.
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My characters are a mix, but I haven't rally sought out relationships for any of them.
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Penis. Lot's of it ITT.
Just sayin'.
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