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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Ulphus on 21 Jun 2011, 14:37

Title: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Ulphus on 21 Jun 2011, 14:37
Something that came up in discussion the other day. Is the voluval true - does the mark really accurately describe or predict your personality? If you get a bad mark, does that really mean you're a bad person?

Personally, I interpret the Voluval as being "technology indistinguishable from magic" that reads a persons genetics, brain chemical mix, etc and produces a prediction of the persons future behaviour that is, while not determinate, fairly accurate.

Incidentally, this is one reason I suspect that brain injuries (or too many drugs) might lead to a different mark if you got it done again - although pod pilots are probably the only ones who might get away with that nowdays.

For example, if you spend your childhood torturing squirrels to death, you end up with a bad mark. You carefully list all the things you want from santa every christmas and save your pocket money obsessively, and you end up with an accountants mark... You're straight forward and blunt and don't step quietly around people's feelings, you end up with the bull mark. etc.

Your future is not set, but it will take hard work to avoid your "destiny".

OOC, I'd like to think that the Matari are not so barbaric as to continue such a practice if it didn't give societal benefits, and that therefore, they believe a clan is better off exiling people with bad marks even at the cost of writing-off the years of effort to raise a child to Voluval age (I could have borrowed Cia's rose coloured glasses here without noticing).

Therefore, IC I think there are real and demonstrable personality issues with people who have the "bad marks" which make them a risk and a liability to the clan and the people around them. They don't play well with others.

Am I completely out in left field here?


Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Casiella on 21 Jun 2011, 14:49
Hmm. I tend to think that it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy: tell a kid he's destined to be a great soldier, and he'll go out and train and fight. Tell her she will be a great leader, and she'll get into politics. Tell them they're outcasts and not worthy of being among polite society, and that will happen.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Ava Starfire on 21 Jun 2011, 14:51
No. Not in left field at all.

The Matari may be thought of as simplistic, but seriously, these were an advanced people before the Day of Darkness... they know about nature vs nurture and all the other arguments that people raise against the voluval. If they didnt have a LOT of reasons to keep doing it, they wouldnt keep doing it. Matari may be lots of things, but stupid isnt one of them.

I can buy that the Voluval "might" not be accurate 100% of the time. I expect its accuracy is over 99%, however; people that do thinks like skin frogs alive and pull the legs off bugs, who grow up to decide humans are more fun to torture than animals, are wired differently. The Voluval detects that.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Esna Pitoojee on 21 Jun 2011, 15:04
Eh... here's my question about that, then - why are people so concerned about those in Vo'Shun if everyone there are "bad people"? Seems to me that Vo'Shun isn't so much a "prison island" as a "mix of innocence and evil".
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Mithfindel on 21 Jun 2011, 15:08
I've also heard the theory about previously space-capable races (possibly Jove) setting loose the Voluval. So it's still technology advanced enough to be indistinguishable from magic, and it works, but it has a quirk - it favours those individuals which have the genetics its original designers want people to have. In short, it is an eugenics tool.

Naturally, this is deeply in the tin foil padded domain of mass wild guessing.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Ulphus on 21 Jun 2011, 15:15
Eh... here's my question about that, then - why are people so concerned about those in Vo'Shun if everyone there are "bad people"? Seems to me that Vo'Shun isn't so much a "prison island" as a "mix of innocence and evil".

Uh, who's concerned about Vo'Shun? I'm not. "The Outcast" article seemed to be written by some Gallente bleeding heart who was shocked to discover how the Matari deal with their likely serial killers, lawyers, and people who talk in the cinema.

Vo'Shun seems to me to not actually be much to do with the Matari at all. Once someone is exiled, where they go is up to them.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Ulphus on 21 Jun 2011, 15:25
Hmm. I tend to think that it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy: tell a kid he's destined to be a great soldier, and he'll go out and train and fight. Tell her she will be a great leader, and she'll get into politics. Tell them they're outcasts and not worthy of being among polite society, and that will happen.

The article on Voluval suggested (to me) that it was possible to predict which mark a person might get based on their personalilty - Nobody seemed surprised Mattmar got the mark of the Bull in "Ray of Matar". So I don't think it's as simple as just encouraging someone in a particular direction.

I could be wrong though.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Lyn Farel on 21 Jun 2011, 15:41
I have always favored Casiella's approach.

Eh... here's my question about that, then - why are people so concerned about those in Vo'Shun if everyone there are "bad people"? Seems to me that Vo'Shun isn't so much a "prison island" as a "mix of innocence and evil".

Uh, who's concerned about Vo'Shun? I'm not. "The Outcast" article seemed to be written by some Gallente bleeding heart who was shocked to discover how the Matari deal with their likely serial killers, lawyers, and people who talk in the cinema.

Or maybe the author is right and there are a lot of victims of injustice in the lot that have not been differenciated from the truly deviant ones or been outcasted for the sake of obscurantism.

In any case I prefer this idea for several reasons :

- The narrator is not said in the text to be a character with his own convictions, and no clue is left to tell us that it is the case. By default, it is most likely the author/the storyteller himself that is speaking (so CCP). Occam's razor for me.

- I find it best for the story when a tool is even more misused and badly understood, with a lot of prejudice and clichés anchored in tradition (much like slavery in amarr). It goes pair with the grimdark side of eve, and it makes it more relevant to my eyes for that precise reason.

Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: lallara zhuul on 21 Jun 2011, 16:02
The Amarrian Holders are just laughing as their nanite based breeding program indicators have been adopted by the Minnies as something holy and they keep purifying the stock from any weaknesses.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Ulphus on 21 Jun 2011, 16:15
- The narrator is not said in the text to be a character with his own convictions, and no clue is left to tell us that it is the case. By default, it is most likely the author/the storyteller himself that is speaking (so CCP). Occam's razor for me.

Then it's OOC, not PF? Filled with the opinions of a modern RL person?
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Sophie Starsparrow on 21 Jun 2011, 16:35
I tend to think like all religions, it has truth in it that's been distorted. No matter how technological the method may be, it is treated and discussed as a religious truth. How many of those bad marks were on people the Shaman didn't like? or was a possible rival to a chief? etc...
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Saede Riordan on 21 Jun 2011, 16:45
Hmm. I tend to think that it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy: tell a kid he's destined to be a great soldier, and he'll go out and train and fight. Tell her she will be a great leader, and she'll get into politics. Tell them they're outcasts and not worthy of being among polite society, and that will happen.

I think its probably a combination of this, and what Ulphus said in the OP, chances are the mark is accurate enough that there is decent reason to keep doing it. Although IMO, dumping out people who might have mental/socialisation issues and treating them like rubbish is a pretty surefire way of bringing out those issues. Someone who might otherwise have been a productive member of society loses their friends, family, clan, everyone, is it really a huge shock that they turn into a disillusioned thug lurking in the back alley preying on the people that put him there?

The way I play it with Nikita is that yes: there is a gentic/mental aspect of the voluval. She's definitely more violent, and ruthless, then most people, however, her mark definitely doesn't define her, and its definitely open to interpretation if that behaviour is because of her nature, or because of her socialization, where she was basically raised to be ruthless and violent to survive.

Also, keep in mind that nowhere in the PF does it specifically say why someone with an outcast mark is exiled. Is it because they're sociopaths? I don't think it is. Why, because the matari employ sociopaths, I mean, that's basically what the Valkears are. Criminals, murders, sociopaths, ones given weapons and governmental permission to inflict misery on their fellow man.

No, I have to think there is something deeper behind this, poor genetic stock perhaps? Or maybe Genetic stock that's too good to let get into the general population? There's all sorts of possibilities.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Casiella on 21 Jun 2011, 17:03
They're exiled because the mark / spirits / shaman said so, AIUI.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Matariki Rain on 21 Jun 2011, 17:10
This is EVE: bias is everywhere; bias is good.

Anything using the words "poignant", "sin", "blame", "beleaguered underdogs", and "shameful taint" -- and that's just in its first paragraph (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=11-03-05) -- is displaying its biases. Understand and embrace that, and work out how the likely underlying events and conditions might seem from your viewpoint.

However, please remember that we don't know about Vo'shun: "even the liberal Gallenteans, always eager for a good cause to leap upon like lampreys and saturate their media with, have never heard of Vo’shun." It's one of those cryptic bits of PF that we're told would have significant impact were it known, and that impact hasn't happened. (And yes, I set up my first RP character to have seen Vo'shun, but although her angle is kind of interesting (a) she's pretty reserved about volunteering anything, and (b) I soon found that stuff to do with bad marks and outcasts is so cliche in Matari RP circles that it's a bit eye-rollingly "not another one".)

How the outcasts themselves hear about about Vo'shun and manage to get there is one of the unanswered mysteries of EVE. I've expressed my frustrations with that elsewhere on Backstage. Realistically, I expect that those who are both cast out and manage to use space travel to get away will be much more likely to find a place in the Federation: keep your shirt on around other Matari and get on with life without this silly "place of shame" business in Amarrian space.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Vincent Pryce on 21 Jun 2011, 17:18
Quote from: Ulphus
Vo'Shun seems to me to not actually be much to do with the Matari at all. Once someone is exiled, where they go is up to them.

If the exiled happened to find themselves with an outlaw group that is far more open minded, and then come for a little payback with a pair of shackles for not even given a chance because a bad mark said so...

One can argue it's the proof that the marking works, but I would argue that in many cases we create our own monsters.

Maybe that person would have grown up to be the general to lead the Republic or Tribes to victory against the oppressors. Instead never given chance because of an old tradition they grew bitter, vicious and the violent nature nurtured instead of harnessed for a cause you get the most vicious bastard around, who might even contribute to the possible fall of the Republic/ Tribes purely by "This is for me and my sister you superstitious fuckwads."

I would also argue it has a lot to do with the Matari. Just because you throw out the trash doesn't magically cut the trace back to you. It's your doing, thus part of you and your legacy. I think it's a nice reminder of "Matari, like anyone else, in EVEverse are bastards".

Now this is me playing the Devil's advocate, everyone wants to think the best of their given factions we grow very fond of them. Be it one of the Pirate Factions. I'm guilty of this as well from time to time. But lets face it, this is EVE, this again very grimdark. I would argue Voluval is not all that infallible, instead of afore mentioned 99% it'd be closer 50-60% accuracy rate, while the technology might be accurate, it's old and people don't know quite how to use it anymore or have made a mistake of how the results were supposed to interpret or other blunder in learning to use it. So they make mistakes. One destined for front line infantry ends up outcast, and as such their potential unharnessed runs rampant and grows corrupt as I mentioned before. Or like Sophie said, are manipulated intentionally. Surely if there's technology to make them, someone's figured a way to fuck with them.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Mizhara on 21 Jun 2011, 20:12
I'm with Ulf here. The Matari is an advanced civilization with good understanding of technology, psychology and so on. The Voluval being 'technology indistinguishable from magic' is how I've seen it from the very beginning. While not perfect, it's certainly overwhelmingly accurate enough to keep the practice going even in an 'enlightened' society. I took that idea a bit further with the Gripdjur clan, letting it build it's spirituality and faith on technological and scientific bases, acknowledging that you don't need to truly believe... as long as you accept and understand the effect of rituals and spirituality.

The Voluval marks are 'truth' as far as I'm concerned. I've seen nothing in PF that says otherwise, no matter how much 'bleeding hearts' or 'wrongfully exiled outcast' RPers spin stories that says otherwise.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Seriphyn on 21 Jun 2011, 20:23
I actually interpreted Minmatar technology to be in a different scale of measure in terms of technology. They've "futurized" something that would be seen as ancient and anachronistic. I haven't read "Ray of Matar" or anything, but doesn't sound too farfetched that the Voluval measures off of DNA and all that.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Casiella on 21 Jun 2011, 20:34
But what's it measuring?
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Ulphus on 21 Jun 2011, 20:44
If the Voluval is 99.9% valid, that means that you only miss one sociopath per thousand sociopaths, but if you only have one sociopath per 1000 people, then for every sociopath you detect, you probably get a false positive on an innocent person.  (note that these numbers are wild guesses to illustrate the situation, assumes only two options, and that the answer is a yes/no option; and therefore should be taken with a large dose of salt)

So, even with 99.9% valid detectors, half your exiles will be (more or less) innocent.

So sure, there's a level of unfairness on a bunch of the exiles, but I imagine that such a level of accuracy might still be considered acceptable to a lot of people in the tribes.

Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Saede Riordan on 21 Jun 2011, 20:49
But what's it measuring?

evilness
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Mizhara on 21 Jun 2011, 20:55
Brain chemistry. Everything that a person is, mental issues and all, sloshes around in your skull. The voluval analyze this, then marks you accordingly.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Casiella on 21 Jun 2011, 21:04
I don't think everything it supposedly indicates can be measured chemically, certainly not at the ages at which it's administered.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Mizhara on 21 Jun 2011, 21:10
I don't see why it wouldn't.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Matariki Rain on 21 Jun 2011, 21:11
For Seri:

Quote from: Chronicle: Tattoos (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tattoos_%28Chronicle%29)
The Voluval is the sacred coming-of-age ceremony for the Minmatar. It is here that the individual transforms from a child into a fully recognized member of their tribe. At the height of the ceremony the presiding shaman will finalize the ritual by invoking the Voluval mark, where the soul and destiny of a person are said to be revealed through the emergence of a tattoo on the recipient, the secrets of which are closely guarded by the Vherokior mystics who kept it alive during the long centuries of subjugation.

The Voluval is considered the most sacred mark a Minmatar can carry, and in some rare cases can change his life irrevocably. Although the significance attached to the Voluval mark has waned considerably in today’s Republic, certain marks can still see the recipient cast out from his clan and tribe, and conversely certain marks can lend the bearer much acclaim. In nearly all cases, however, the mark falls somewhere between these two extremes and the bearer moves on with little effect.

Quote from: Ray of Matar (http://www.eveonline.com/races/rayofmatar/page_05.asp?pp=background%2Cstories)
    Vormar cleared his throat before replying: “Yes, thank you Eliza for coming right to the point. As you know, if you’ve witnessed a Voluval before, those being tested undergo a special treatment by the spirit conductor overseeing the ceremony. This treatment involves direct injections into the heart and the ventral root area…”
    “What kind of injections?” Eliza interrupted.
    “Well, a large quantity of tyrosine is injected into the heart, which then, through metabolism, is turned into melanin by the body. Frankly, I’m not sure what exactly the mixture injected into the ventral root area consists off; it’s a closely guarded secret of the chemists that prepare it. Only a few of the ingredients are commonly known, among them are acetylcholine, oxytocin, calcitonin, and vasoactive intestinal polypeptide.” The names were clearly just as unfamiliar to Vormar as the rest of them, but at least it was something.
    “And what does it do?” Eliza probed further. Vormar didn’t seem annoyed by Eliza’s discourteous questions; he was probably used to all kinds of weird or silly or rude questions from those he was preparing for the Voluval.
    “Magic!” Vormar said and smiled. “No, seriously speaking, I can’t tell you with certainty. The melanin spreads all over the body through the blood stream, but only the small bit that is affected by the other injection is actually used. The rest flushes out of the body. Now, the real mystery is what the ventral root injection does. We only know what little the chemists that prepare it tell us: that it connects with the sub-consciousness and then uses the free-flowing melanin to form intricate marks on the body. These marks become a permanent feature of the person’s skin, a permanent tan so to speak that alters according to the skin color of the person to be constantly visible. They describe that person’s inner-self; what kind of person he is deep down. I’m afraid that’s all I know, and I guess you’ve heard it many times before.”

I recall entire threads speculating about how the voluval injections might work (possibly on the EM forums). I'm with Ulf: my understanding is that it's a genetic and psycho-chemical test of your proclivities which outputs a reading on your skin, like a much more complicated version of a pregnancy test giving a plus or minus. It says something true about you, and the clans have learnt to act on what the test reveals.

Others will, of course, interpret this completely differently.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Casiella on 21 Jun 2011, 21:29
I don't exactly think that the brain chemistry of a 14yo determines whether she'll be the prime minister someday...
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Acerba on 21 Jun 2011, 21:30
I don't see any reason to assume that the Voluval is an accurate measure of a person's innate personality or tendencies.  After all, The Outcast is written from a third person omniscient perspective (how else would the author know about the ritual, the obscure Amarrian law, and the Sisters of EVE's efforts when even the Gallente are unaware?), and there is no reference made to the ritual's efficacy.

The other thing to keep in mind is that it's part of a coming of age ceremony, and most of the people who undergo the ritual would consequentially be adolescents.  This is pretty important when you're talking psychology because the brain wouldn't be fully developed.  This is a very big deal.  It's why the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI) has different versions for adolescents and adults.

Of course, even if the ritual is just an example of self-fulfilling prophecy (a phenomena which has been demonstrated to have profound effects), it's still culturally useful.  It provides a nice, tidy way of explaining the way people work, and it gives individuals a path to walk.  Those who undergo the ritual don't have to worry about what they're good at or what they should do with their life, because it's been conveniently laid out for them.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Casiella on 21 Jun 2011, 21:32
Didn't Istvaan write that chron?
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Matariki Rain on 21 Jun 2011, 21:52
Didn't Istvaan write that chron?

I believe he wrote the Vo'shun chron. Hadn't heard about him being involved with Ray of Matar or Tattoos.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Casiella on 21 Jun 2011, 22:02
Yes, but doesn't that one refer to folks who get certain marks being outcast?
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Esna Pitoojee on 22 Jun 2011, 00:56
Yes, Istvaan did write that chronicle. Here's the text where he says as much, from the Selective Atheism thread (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1734.0).

I actually wrote that chronicle. I had no idea how much impact it would have on Eve when I wrote it. It's very rewarding to see something like that become canon. I love CCP for letting me sneak it in. The original intent was simply to give the Minmatar a 'stain' of sorts - a glaring example of darkness that almost justified the Amarr in their conquest - it's a tradition they'd see as barbaric, and want to purge, out of some perceived intergalactic white man's burden or god-given superiority complex. I wanted to build on the 'bad marks' and consequences for getting one.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Merdaneth on 22 Jun 2011, 01:48
It just measures some general attributes. Self-fullfilling prophecy and societal expectation does much of the rest.

If you get marked a criminal, and people treat you like a criminal, odds are that you will become a criminal if you already have the base genetic attributes favoring such a path. Similar for being a leader.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Ulphus on 22 Jun 2011, 02:08
It just measures some general attributes. Self-fullfilling prophecy and societal expectation does much of the rest.

Do you have some evidence for believing this, or is this just your opinion?
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Merdaneth on 22 Jun 2011, 02:16
It just measures some general attributes. Self-fullfilling prophecy and societal expectation does much of the rest.

Do you have some evidence for believing this, or is this just your opinion?

Opinion, what would make the most sense to me. There isn't any evidence either way, as with much of EVE stuff.

IC you can believe and play it like you want to, this seems to be the best OOC explanation that will give sufficient playing room for all parties.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Saede Riordan on 22 Jun 2011, 05:51
It just measures some general attributes. Self-fullfilling prophecy and societal expectation does much of the rest.

If you get marked a criminal, and people treat you like a criminal, odds are that you will become a criminal if you already have the base genetic attributes favoring such a path. Similar for being a leader.

I'd rather like to see the PF that states that outcast marks are automatically indicative of being a criminal/sociopath/murderous monster/whatever
because from what I've been able to find, the only things that outcast marks specifically do, is make you an outcast. Why it makes you an outcast is never specified.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Mithfindel on 22 Jun 2011, 06:25
I think the limitations of a few marks are mentioned, but not why they are in place. For example, if you get a mark that forbids you to speak, if you want to say a word, you must be in a place where the tribal laws about Voluval marks are not enforced.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Merdaneth on 22 Jun 2011, 06:51
I'd rather like to see the PF that states that outcast marks are automatically indicative of being a criminal/sociopath/murderous monster/whatever
because from what I've been able to find, the only things that outcast marks specifically do, is make you an outcast. Why it makes you an outcast is never specified.

It is certainly specified. From the Ray of Matar:

"We only know what little the chemists that prepare it tell us: that it connects with the sub-consciousness and then uses the free-flowing melanin to form intricate marks on the body. These marks become a permanent feature of the person’s skin, a permanent tan so to speak that alters according to the skin color of the person to be constantly visible. They describe that person’s inner-self; what kind of person he is deep down."

People aren't cast out because their 'inner self' is an outcast or because 'deep down they are outcasts'. They are cast out because their mark represent traits considered undesirable by the society. Their inner selves are considered undesirable. Generally such traits tend to be those who are associated with anti-social behaviour. Those with criminal and sociopathic tendencies probably are probably at the forefront of the anti-social traits.

If there is a connection between traits and the ritual, then for me that would be the most sensible one. An advanced personality profile test based on genetic markers if you will.

The same is also true for positive marks. Like the Ray of Matar mark on the face signifying someone with the psychological potential to become a great leader. Positive marks don't signify just that a person shouldn't be outcast, they signify a certain combination of traits, a desired type of  inner self.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: lallara zhuul on 22 Jun 2011, 06:53
If the voluval marks would be the truth in a moral and expansive way, would it not mean that all capsuleers would have 'bad' marks?

Being genocidal sociopaths that are only motivated by greed and self-indulgence.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Mizhara on 22 Jun 2011, 07:06
What Merdaneth said, pretty much. That it's been going on for so long and with such massive sample sizes as they've got, one'd think it's efficiency is fairly confirmed or debunked by now. Since it's going strong, it's from all indications confirmed, especially taking into account that it is an advanced society with (probably) higher understanding of psychology, nurture vs genetics, brain chemistry and so on than us in our real life time-period.

As for Zhuul here, I mostly agree. I certainly wouldn't RP a Minmatar capsuleer with a 'good' mark... however...

We can't even remotely infer that the genetics required to become a capsuleer is somehow tied to 'bad marks' genetics. The whole genocidal sociopath thing is most likely tied to environmental/external impact of capsuleer life rather than qualities you're born with. Thus you'd probably see capsuleers with all kinds of Voluval marks.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Merdaneth on 22 Jun 2011, 08:58
If the voluval marks would be the truth in a moral and expansive way, would it not mean that all capsuleers would have 'bad' marks?

Being genocidal sociopaths that are only motivated by greed and self-indulgence.

You don't need to be a sociopath for push-button killing hundreds. You need to be one to look hundreds begging for mercy in the eye and then kill them. Empathic principles operate way better when you can actually sense (see, hear etc.) those who you hurt.

I'm not ascribing to the school of 'capsuleers are sociopaths'.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Merdaneth on 22 Jun 2011, 09:00
What Merdaneth said, pretty much. That it's been going on for so long and with such massive sample sizes as they've got, one'd think it's efficiency is fairly confirmed or debunked by now.

Since there is no double-blind testing going on, my estimation is that its only partially grounded in 'truth'. Self-fullfilling prophecy and labelling theory provides the rest of the evidence.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Louella Dougans on 22 Jun 2011, 11:09
Quote
The Disgraced Son
The Brutor, Hnarlir Afer, has been an outcast from his home-world, Matar, ever since his Voluval ritual. The mark it left behind was so shameful even his loving father disowned him. He moved to the Gallente Federation, where hardly anyone recognized the mark or paid it any attention. There he began a life of a mercenary, having been bred as a space pilot by his military veteran father.

He quickly made a name for himself, before becoming a freelancer. Using the wealth he garnered from that profession, he started up his own corporation, The Markoni Dragons. It has been quite successful, earning Hnarlir a small fortune.

But even with his change of fortune, Hnarlir greatly misses his homeworld. He desperately wants to return and reclaim a position within his nation of birth. But he dares not return with the mark on his cheek as visible as ever. His family has suffered enough shame on his behalf already.

Yet Hnarlir still has hope. Hope that his ‘condition’ can finally be modified. Even though it goes against everything the Minmatar consider holy, Hnarlir is just desperate, and wealthy, enough to pull it off. He wants to learn the method which the Vheriokor shamans use to perform the Voluval ritual and modify the mark so that it no longer resembles the symbol of the Ammatar Mandate.

This is from one of the introductory missions for Minmatar. The agent is I think in Eram.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Isobel Mitar on 22 Jun 2011, 16:05
For what it is worth, I think the Voluval mark ceremony is a magical technology personality test of sorts. So yes, I do think Voluval has a portion of truth in it in the sense it does accurately pick out and make visible some actual good and bad characteristics/tendencies of a person - while missing and not showing others.

To elaborate, I find it fairly likely the test is pretty accurate in recognizing correctly the things that it is designed to recognize from the data it gets. Advanced science handwavium and all that.

However, I also expect both the test and the lore surrounding the marks and their meanings have limitations. All classification schemes have limitations. And something classifying "inner-self" based on brain chemistry and DNA of a teenager and outputting the most important thing about that inner-self in a single blot of pigmentation sounds like something that would by necessity have plenty.

For example, good or bad stuff about the personality the test does not (or cannot) measure, or which by necessity gets lumped together with other variables, or stuff about inner-self that just gets ignored in favour of a variable the test creators considered more important. Human factors in interpreting and passing down the lore about different marks - what marks there exist, what do they signify when they appear in different parts of the body, what to do about different marks? (Human factors including politics, but also many other issues.)

Some more questions I consider interesting and relevant to the topic:

1. Where Voluval came from? Who designed the stuff and decided what personality variables to measure? What were they trying to do with the test? Just as one example, a test designed to weed out "bad people" will be quite different from one designed to indicate suitable career choices for a person - the choices made about weighing and displaying factors will be quite different.

2. Where the lore surrounding the different marks came from? How old is the tradition and the lore? How much reliable recorded data there is about different marks and their significance?

3. Is there a discrete preprogrammed set of marks, or are the marks freeform? (In which case interpreting whether a mark qualifies as an instance or a variation of a known mark or whether it should be considered a completely new type of mark is necessarily part of the traditional lore)
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Lyn Farel on 22 Jun 2011, 18:22
Everyone seems more or less agreeing on the fact that the Voluval is a not fully understood technology anaylizing the inner self, not writing a "label of unique destiny" on each face. From what we know at the moment, the mark shows an "inner self", nothing more, no truth about something unavoidable mentionned (could be the case, could also not be).

Then we have matari people interpreting this and outcasting the bad ones. Be it the TRUTH or just the picture of an inner self, they will be right in every case in the former, and wrong in a lot of cases in the latter.

Sidenote : has anyone more info about the voluval mark looking like the Mandate sign ?


The Voluval marks are 'truth' as far as I'm concerned. I've seen nothing in PF that says otherwise, no matter how much 'bleeding hearts' or 'wrongfully exiled outcast' RPers spin stories that says otherwise.

There is also nothing of the PF that clearly states it is "truth" either. They let it vague that way for a purpose actually I think.

You are biased by your faction, you should take some detachement. I am not sure if going for a "my way of intepreting it is the only valable one" approach is a good idea ("urdoingitwrong").

- The narrator is not said in the text to be a character with his own convictions, and no clue is left to tell us that it is the case. By default, it is most likely the author/the storyteller himself that is speaking (so CCP). Occam's razor for me.

Then it's OOC, not PF? Filled with the opinions of a modern RL person?

No, this is about 2 kinds of narrative styles :

- Either you have a point of view.

- Either you have a 3rd person omniscient narrative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-person_omniscient_narrative), and this has nothing to do with IC or OOC.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Isobel Mitar on 23 Jun 2011, 00:38
Some idle speculation:

To contemporary western eyes, the Matari practice of making people outcast based on the marks they get seems quite cruel, as it judges people based on what they might do, not what those people have actually done.

I find it interesting to speculate why the tribal Matari find such practice justifiable or even good. What is different in their value system and view of society? Perhaps their view of justice and rights is more group-oriented?

In the contemporary western world, the individual has traditionally a strong right to be judged by what they do - "innocent until proven guilty".

Perhaps among the Matari the members of a clan are seen to have a communal right to trust their clanmembers? A right to live in a society where all clan members have a low likelihood of engaging in intra-clan antisocial behaviour? The communal right to safety and ability to trust all members of the group is seen as weightier than individual rights of potential "problem members"? (Perhaps even the communal right to breed out criminal tendencies from the clan future generations of descendants?)

This would possibly mesh well with clan being to some extent held responsible for what it's members do - an assertion I find quite reasonable given what we know about Matari culture. (weak central justice system, strong clan/tribal autonomy, strong clan ties, a value system that seems to consider nepotism a virtue)
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Kaito Haakkainen on 27 Jun 2011, 08:15
The technology behind the Voluval may no longer be fully understood by the Mystics who keep the technique secret. It may be a true reading with the Matari having forgotten how to fully interpret the marks.

The Minmatar have been acknowledged as being capable of advanced engineering before the Day of Darkness but are not noted for having had any other advanced technologies. It is pointed out that their hospitable world made striving to retain and rediscover such technology less of a priority. Yet the Voluval appears to imply a level of understanding in genetics thus far attained by no other race and could be tied in with many "soft sciences" at an advanced level. Because of this it could be thought that the technology might originally stem from the Enheduanni influence on the Matari and their attempts to steer them onto a similar path to themselves. Alternatively it could be linked to the Yan Jung who appear to have occupied Matar in the distant past. Less interestingly it may also be related to Jovian genetic studies, or a Jovian attempt to subvert the Enheduanni agenda for the Matari. But then almost every mystery can result in fingers being pointed at the Jove.

Point?
What the Sefrim were to the Amarr through the Scriptures another (or the same) group may be to the Minmatar through the Voluval.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: hellgremlin on 27 Jul 2011, 15:56
Let's say you're a member of a dwindling race. Only a few thousand of your kind left. Millenia of genetic tampering have ruined your own genome. Your only hope for survival is a fresh infusion of genetic material from a compatible donor. However, the only donors available happen to have a 20,000 year evolutionary disadvantage, compared to your people. It would be akin to having a bonobo liver transplanted into a human body.

You decide to tamper with the genetics of those lesser cousins to your species, in order to bridge the genetic gap. However, with your limited numbers, keeping track of favourable and harmful traits among a fluid population of billions is logistically infeasible. Instead, you devise a test involving attaching a pigment to favourable genetic markers in the test population. You wrap the test in superstition and folklore, and teach your test population to self-administer it. The test becomes a ritual. Those conducting the test have forgotten its actual purpose. You teach them which marks are "good" and which are "evil" and they self-segregate across un-counted generations according to your directives.

That's my Voluval theory. Freakin' Joves trying to hollow us out and use us for canoes.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Matariki Rain on 27 Jul 2011, 18:11
That's my Voluval theory. Freakin' Joves trying to hollow us out and use us for canoes.

Yeah, it seems likely that someone's doing that, and the Jove and the Sleepers do seem to be reasonable contenders.

Do we have any information about how long the Voluval tradition's been going? (Since time immemorial?) Do we have any other suggestions of Jovian contact before the obvious stuff? Apparently they like to infiltrate (and watch)...

Also, does anyone else see the Jovian fetus-tubes (http://www.eveonline.com/races/jove.asp) and think that the pod wasn't the only thing the Jove had shared with the Caldari?
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Casiella on 27 Jul 2011, 18:49
Joves and nanites. They explain everything (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1549856), right?
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: hellgremlin on 11 Aug 2012, 11:55
I just thought of something. There's a "negative" mark called the Broken Shield. That's what the Ammatar mandate logo kinda looks like.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Khloe on 11 Aug 2012, 15:16
Just a thought here, but perhaps the interpretations of these markings are based on historic significance.  For example, a former leader who led their tribe through a period of hardship to prosperity would have their mark remembered and seen as a positive sign for future generations.  Now imagine tribes on other worlds building their own histories and interpretations of these markings and you have yourself a diverse blend of Minmatar following tradition without all being pigeon-holed into the same status no matter where they travel.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Saede Riordan on 11 Aug 2012, 17:18
I purposely didn't give Saede an outcast mark, I also purposefully made her sort of incredibly evil, because I went with the assumption that the voluval is a Jovian thingie and the Jove would have valued the presence of her intelligence more then the absence of her moral limits.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Casiella on 11 Aug 2012, 19:00
I went with the assumption that the voluval is a Jovian thingie

[citation needed]
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Ulphus on 11 Aug 2012, 19:40
Just a thought here, but perhaps the interpretations of these markings are based on historic significance.  For example, a former leader who led their tribe through a period of hardship to prosperity would have their mark remembered and seen as a positive sign for future generations.  Now imagine tribes on other worlds building their own histories and interpretations of these markings and you have yourself a diverse blend of Minmatar following tradition without all being pigeon hoped into the same status no matter where they travel.

I quite like this Gyra. Even if the Jovians had anything to do with voluval, I doubt they will have provided an instruction manual for interpreting the signs, so I like the idea that bad marks are bad marks because people with those marks have turned out bad.

Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Tamiroth on 12 Aug 2012, 00:08
By the way, Minmatar players probably have invented a lot of marks for their characters. It'd be cool to have a compendium thread on those in player-created content or something.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Louella Dougans on 12 Aug 2012, 00:29
There's a "negative" mark called the Broken Shield. That's what the Ammatar mandate logo kinda looks like.

But, which came first? Did the Ammatar mandate choose a logo, making the mark "Bad". Or was the mark already "Bad", and the Ammatar chose it for their logo to represent something ?

It's like one of the other marks mentioned somewhere, the "Slavers fang", which is a bad mark. How is it called the slavers fang, when slaver hounds would not be encountered before contact with the Empire ? Was it always bad ? Or did it only become bad after the Empire appeared ? maybe that mark was called something else before.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Saede Riordan on 12 Aug 2012, 09:07
I went with the assumption that the voluval is a Jovian thingie

[citation needed]

Quite honestly, this thread. Its obviously all heresy, but I felt like it would be interesting to have s seemingly evil character with a benign mark, and thus obviously, Jovians Did It.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: lallara zhuul on 12 Aug 2012, 13:41
Why would the voluval goop be benign or passive in nature?

It could have even more active than just passively doing eugenics on the whole population, it could be actively changing the genome of the Matari.

There is just a few things that I think have been disregarded in this thread.

The fact that during the enslavement bit it was not given as a ritual to the population, even now 60%(?) of the Minnie population is enslaved. So actually in the terms of the whole race it is actually a minority that gets the ritual done.

If it would be a Jovian thingamabob, then Jovians would be actively working towards getting the whole Minmatar population under the umbrella of the ritual.

I think one thing speaks highly against the uber high tech nature of the voluval.

It's production.

I seriously doubt that the shamans of the have sekrit artifact that they milk for the voluval goop.

For one primary reason, logistics.

Getting the goop from one location to the people pre-Day of Darkness would not have been that hard, but now it would be very much so. Especially since the whole logistics chain would have to be a secret as well, otherwise the invaders (Amarr) would have found the sekrit voluval Slurm milking plant.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Matariki Rain on 12 Aug 2012, 14:49
Why would the voluval goop be benign or passive in nature?

Didn't claim it was. Talking about that in too much detail, though, blurs the boundaries between IC public knowledge, IC secrets (which might or might not be "true"), and OOC suppositions.

(I can't resist saying, though, that Mata uses the phrase "infection or inoculation" to describe it.)
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Makkal on 12 Aug 2012, 18:26
But what's it measuring?
Your 'totally not worthy of society' gene.

Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Reyd Karris on 12 Aug 2012, 18:44
But what's it measuring?
Your 'totally not worthy of society' gene.
Genetic predisposition (key markers for mood disorders, late childhood/early adulthood onset genetic disorders, psychosis, etc.), neurology (serotonin and melatonin levels), drugs and toxins, etc.

Lots of little things can be detected, and a combination of these "markers" determine the mark. While there may not be a set interpretation, these marks could be used along with oral and written tradition to cross-reference what kind of person they may be.

In short; a really nifty way to pass down genetic testing and integrate eugenics principles into a tribal society in a culturally acceptable way, without telling them exactly what's going on.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Ulphus on 12 Aug 2012, 20:23
We had a number of conversations at one stage about what might be being measured, and one interesting question was what would happen if you took it twice?

For most people, that might not be an option, but capsuleers?

You're not the same person now that you were when you were 14-18 and got your Voluval. Does this mean you'd get a different mark in a new body?

Maybe. It's not a question that's easy to answer without knowing a bit more than they tell the players.


Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Tara Erata on 10 Nov 2017, 05:17
In short; a really nifty way to pass down genetic testing and integrate eugenics principles into a tribal society in a culturally acceptable way, without telling them exactly what's going on.

psychosis has not a direct genetical marker and 10% get it indepedently of situation throughout there live.

one could weep out shizophrenia that is genetical related yet shizophrenia can be prevented through good nurture - development experiments with mices.

a predisposition for low strength could be measured by muscel growth hormone.

another approach

what the minmatat have is animistic believe then everything is ensouled or bespirited in some way and a person has a guardian animal, spirit protector or representation in the spirit realm.

what the minmatar shaman might have as model of is a kind spiritual of entanglement with an energy or potential and this potential shows through a small mark.

okay also not the best explanation.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Arnulf Ogunkoya on 10 Nov 2017, 15:49
Well, if you look back in this thread hellgremlin suggests that it might have been a Jove ploy to manipulate the Minmatar gene pool.

Now, given he wrote the chronicle Ray of Matar, I would say his thoughts on the matter carry a fair bit of weight.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Tara Erata on 11 Nov 2017, 02:49
Well, if you look back in this thread hellgremlin suggests that it might have been a Jove ploy to manipulate the Minmatar gene pool.

Now, given he wrote the chronicle Ray of Matar, I would say his thoughts on the matter carry a fair bit of weight.

I was thinking hellgremlin's suggestion through with the few medical knowdledge of mine(unfinished nurse edjucation).
it's less that it fails more that there a development vectors which may prove not what the jove may want.(but then perfection is a relative term imho)

the vehrokior mysticsmight want an explanation that is more sound than siebving out sociopaths something like we are experts and therefore a meaning b meaning that he is going to show c menas he is going to be a sociopath.
Title: Re: Voluval as truth, especially bad marks.
Post by: Tara Erata on 11 Nov 2017, 08:15
let's say the jovians planned to uplift the minmatar tribes then tool might have to be introduced through some use of spiritual symbolism like an star spirit or warrior spirit.

then if it is genetic it had to prevent some eugenicism that lead to impairing like mongoloidism.
let's assume one get's bull because of genetic combination then they either have bul for female's with a opposite genetic combination or females get no bull. we know ray of matar seems to appear on either gender as we are not told it's female specific.so male bull has to not marry female bull. but he can choose hoove female.

so jovians uplift minmatar with marker systematic then they need to implement some breeding policy.
otherwise population relying on voluval would eventually  not be capable of more the ball looking at in no time.(can ask my father about this if you want he is a human geneticist specialised in enfermidat hereditaria ... uff i think i misspelled that term)

okay genetic markers are somehow able to look at sexual genomes x and y and warn about bad coupelings. does okkham's razor ask us to assume anything to make this work. well only that ther needs to be an additional marker to the core symbol like fire ... the triangle in the center of the ammatar mandate symbol is the metaphysical symbol for fire by the way
(maybe broken shield he brings fire to the defense burning it in the process)

so let's say there is earth bull, fire bull, air bull and water bull. and fire can marry earth,air water which leads to a possibility of 3 different same tattoord child combinations in bull pairings (easy to calculate) most likely two.

then the tatoo would be with something akin to a radical in chinese writing (kanji?)

well as long as ccp says not otherwise then a voluval tatoo has at least 2 different geometrical lines.

from the tattoo chronicle

Quote
where the soul and destiny of a person are said to be revealed

which also states that tatoos to minmatar are as god to the amarr, basicly revelations of a higher truth.

means they might speak about tatoos as similar to astrology, numerology, "elementalology"(yin yang, i ching)
not sure but i slowly think they have a story for each tatoo and shamefull for the bad tatoos.
as shame is an emotion and what is better suited to stirr emotions than a good story.


and i set the hypothesis that minmatar is a kind of ai we don't yet understand at all