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It's important to consider that Amarish has very, very deep roots. The basic shape of the language can be traced straight along the path of expansion the Amarr people followed on their homeworld. But it has changed dramatically along the way, and whenever the Amarr have spread and divided, so has their language splintered and developed along tangents.
The most notable change must be the linguistic restructuring that occurred during the Moral Reforms, 1400 years ago. Before this, the ruling class and bureaucracy had been conducting all its business in what was largely considered an antique form of the language - out of respect for tradition and the language of the Scriptures. The Empire was already old at this point, and in the general population the language had rapidly evolved to be practically unrecognizable from Amarrad - the clerical language.
At some point during the Moral Reforms, a decision was made to change the language of the state into something more modern - symbolically moving the power closer to the people than the church (as the clergy practically monopolized Amarrad education and information, and used it in all ceremonies). The process was problematic, as the common Amarish could have tremendous differences between regions, constellations, planets and even different cities. In the end, the linguistic reform married Domain Amarish with the roots of Amarrad, eventually producing the Imperial Amarish used throughout the Empire today - a modern language that rests on foundations older than the Empire itself.
- Prof. Arnaudel Rochin, University of Caille - Lecture on World Languages
Amarrad naji emun.
Amarrad naji e Chorim.
Amarrad naji divreon Sacerotu, Darogu, ta Mispalu.
Amarrad naji Vishen puor ta Vishen osedas.
Amarrad naji amarr-rad.
Amarrad is religion.
Amarrad is The Scripture.
Amarrad is the word of the cleric, the seer, the apostle.
Amarrad is the old knowledge and the coming knowledge.
Amarrad is our speech.
- Our Speech, foreword to religious studybooks up until AD 21897
* * *
Having found this document you may be wondering at its purpose and at my intentions for having created it. The simple answer is that it is a piece of fan fiction written for the setting of EVE Online. The harder answer is that it is an expression of the freeform play encouraged in the sandbox game world of New Eden and it is also homage to the deep, rich, and dark universe of EVE and the characters that inhabit it. Some players prefer to mission, some to mine, some to steal, and some to save. I enjoy these things too, but most of all I prefer to imagine.
- Ken, introduction to "On Napanii, Reconsidered"
The collective writings have been maintained and updated throughout the centuries by Imperial Theologians and include texts that hearken back to the very origins of Amarr society, written in a tongue so ancient as to be unreadable by today's Amarrians.
- Evelopedia, The Scriptures (CCP Ginger)
Latin is boring. There, I said it.
Latin has two pros: it is a simple way to evoke a sense of recognizable antiquity, and it's readily available. That's about it. Yes, I've used my fair share (like in my current corp name), and so has CCP/AURORA in the past (like the Holder oath), but maybe with this project there can be an alternative. An alternative that doesn't pierce immersion like a submarine surfacing through three feet of ice.
Amarrad is not modern Amarrian/Amarish. It is a much older language that no-one is even bothering to machine translate, and was phased out of use so long ago that commoners haven't spoken it in generations. The clergy still studies it, as practically all religious texts are in Amarrad (or even older pre-cursors to it), and some Holders (particularly Ardishapur and Kador ones) learn it to impress the priests. Outside the confines of Imperial authority however, the old language sometimes thrives.
Cults, criminal rings and splinter factions often make use of Amarrad - sometimes because they can trace their origins back to a time when the language was the tongue of the state (like the Tetrimon), sometimes simply because the local police can't understand it. In some fringe settlements, the modernisation and revision of language never really caught on, and priests kept Amarrad entrenched amongst the populace.
In many ways, the language can be compared to today's latin in terms of history and utility. A language that used to dominate the land and which became the de-facto language of scripture, eventually surpassed by its own children and pushed into the fringes where it stuck to its scrolls and bibles.
This project was inspired by a TV program I saw a few days ago, about the Romani language. It's a language that has a mix of influences I think makes a perfect foundation for the Amarr - ancient indian, persian, greek, slavic, european cocktail... it's a tremendous blend! And it is what I decided to use as the ignition spark for Amarrad. A great number of words and terms are from Romani - albeit usually with a fair amount of syllable switcharoo and modding. Added to this is an icing of Yiddish and Hebrew, with some sprinklings of latin and assorted additional semitic languages.
This is, like with the Fenno-Japanese mixture of Napanii, more a matter of producing the right sound than any sort of origin theory.
Grammar
Keep in mind that I've been working on this for a grand total of, like, three days at the time of posting. The Amarrad grammar is in flux at the moment, but I think I can define a basic outline. Also, I'm hardly a linguist.
Amarrad mainly relies on a Subject-Object-Verb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_Object_Verb) typology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_typology), but also uses Object-Subject-Verb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_Subject_Verb) structure on occasion.
Nouns
Amarrad doesn't really seem to have grammatical gender at the moment, which saves a lot of trouble really.
Possession can be expressed using either the -i (of/in) or -(n)u (of/from) suffixes, -i usually being applied to the subject (Sani Sabik - Friends in Blood) and -(n)u applied to the object (Imud Hubrau - Beast of Heaven). The two possessives are as a rule never combined. The -(n)u suffix is often attached to possessive pronouns to form words equivalent to "of his", "of theirs", etc. (e'shlech jarru - a slave of his).
Pluralisation is expressed by appending -(a)n to a word (sa - friend, san - friends; rab - brother, raban - brothers).
Definite article is usually left to inflection and context. In writing is it usually represented by a capital letter. In special cases, the word e is injected into the mix to make things pop (Dei e Tet - God the Divine; e Chorim - the Scriptures).
Verbs
Most verbs begins with va-/la-, and many end in -eer/-ir, but there's plenty of irregularities already. Anyway, the conjugations are pretty regular. Everybody now: Hooray! Conjugations! :D :bash:
Song: alagor
Sing: lagorim
Sang: lagorimet
Sung: lagorit
Speech: rad
Speak: radir
Spoke: radiret
Spoken: radit
Sight: khijd
See: vakhid
Saw: vakhidet
Seen: vakhit
Pronouns and other fun guff!
I/Me: em
You (s): tey
You (pl): teyn
He/Him: jav
She/Her: lav
It/That: chov
I am: a
My/Mine: emarr
Your: teyrr
His: jarr
Hers: larr
Our: amarr
Their: teynarr
a/an: e', ekh
One: iekh
Two: jud
Three: intr
Four: rasht
Five: shpan
Six: kese
Seven: estik
Eight: tsegh
Nine: yien
Ten: sedd
First: ikhni
Second: juddi
Third: intrin
Fourth: rashtin
Fifth: shpani
Sixth: kesen
Seventh: estikin
Eight: tseghn
Ninth: yienne
Tenth: seddni
Phrases!
Let's see if this shizzle works at all...
English: My slave was stabbed by my brother.
Amarrad: emarr shlech ejed chetoman emarr rabu vetekht.
Lit. trans: my slave was, at the hand of my brother, stabbed.
English: I am the devoted hand of the divine god!
Amarrad: a Manu Dei e Tet rimon!
Lit. trans: I am of the hand that is to God the Divine devoted
. I am . of (the) hand . God . the . Divine . devoted .
. a . Manu . Dei . e . Tet . rimon .
English:
In the beginning all things were as one.
God parted them and breathed life into his creation
Divided the parts and gave each its place
And unto each, bestowed purpose"
- The Scriptures, Book I 1:4
Amarrad:
for Ikhnitiast resa zakhn iekhi ejed.
Dei chavn vaplatset, ta for Shaife jarru khaies dechjret.
Platsen vaplatset ta ijed mojem teynarr vedat.
ta kajiv itlech ziel vedat
- e Chorim, Buaran iekh 1:4
Lit. trans:
in The First Time, all things were in one.
God them parted and, into Creation of His, life breathed,
(he) the parts parted, and each their place given.
and unto each, purpose given.
- The Scripture, Pages one 1:4
Glossary!
Big H's Awesome Amarrad Glossary (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AgVYINUB8y0gdEYxNGo1Z3JzNEd4QW5OekJrVUNySWc)
(Moderator's Note: Original glossary link no longer works. A copy of the glossary can be found here (https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/message/5642932/#post5642932) instead.)
Go ahead and hate it, I dare you! :evil:
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Amazing, will give this a thorough read soon as I can :) very promising!
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Awesome! You've got a very good start for only a few days work.
Now watch out, Artabanus will be by in a few minutes to turn this into The Complete Unabridged Amarrad. That is as soon as he and Bataav are done pumping Intaki full of steroids. :D
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Awesome! You've got a very good start for only a few days work.
Now watch out, Artabanus will be by in a few minutes to turn this into The Complete Unabridged Amarrad. That is as soon as he and Bataav are done pumping Intaki full of steroids. :D
I'd welcome such a treatment to Amarrad. :D
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Tetrimon used latin. There is an interview of the Grand Master Elata Ardo where he uses it...
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Tetrimon used latin. There is an interview of the Grand Master Elata Ardo where he uses it...
Yes, AURORA used Latin a couple of times - because the players had resorted to Latin.
I don't like it, so I made this.
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All right, looks good, just one question: Why Amarrish? Why not Amarr or Amarrian? I mean, Amarrad looks all right, but Amarrish looks kind of amateurish (No pun intended I swear to the gods).
Pretty minor complaint considering it's not the dialect you're actually focusing on, but it's just bugging the hell out of me.
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All right, looks good, just one question: Why Amarrish? Why not Amarr or Amarrian? I mean, Amarrad looks all right, but Amarrish looks kind of amateurish (No pun intended I swear to the gods).
Pretty minor complaint considering it's not the dialect you're actually focusing on, but it's just bugging the hell out of me.
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=apr02
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All right, looks good, just one question: Why Amarrish? Why not Amarr or Amarrian? I mean, Amarrad looks all right, but Amarrish looks kind of amateurish (No pun intended I swear to the gods).
Pretty minor complaint considering it's not the dialect you're actually focusing on, but it's just bugging the hell out of me.
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=apr02
Damnit CCP...
Complaint withdrawn. 'Cept you spelt 'Amarish' wrong.
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All right, looks good, just one question: Why Amarrish? Why not Amarr or Amarrian? I mean, Amarrad looks all right, but Amarrish looks kind of amateurish (No pun intended I swear to the gods).
Pretty minor complaint considering it's not the dialect you're actually focusing on, but it's just bugging the hell out of me.
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=apr02
Damnit CCP...
Complaint withdrawn. 'Cept you spelt 'Amarish' wrong.
Yeah, I noticed. Corrected.
And I agree, it's not the most creative of language-names - especially when there's a different adjective consistently pushed (Amarrian), but still.
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Ok...just noticed this posting...this looks extremely promising...
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Working on translating some more Scripture passages at the moment, and adding to the glossary to keep pace.
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OShit!
\o/
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I really do love all these languages popping up all over the place. :)
Although, I think we're going to start needing translators on hand, anyone techy enough to do that. It would be quite awesome.
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Just found this.
>Amarrish
>Amarrad is The Scriptures.
Ho-ho, no no.
Amarrians speak Amarrian, because the Empire is big and the culture is bigger. And because Caldanese is also aesthetically displeasing.
But nice fluff, other than that.
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>Amarrish
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1078.msg12471#msg12471
>Amarrad is The Scriptures.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Scriptures
"The collective writings have been maintained and updated throughout the centuries by Imperial Theologians and include texts that hearken back to the very origins of Amarr society, written in a tongue so ancient as to be unreadable by today's Amarrians."
CCP has established that the Amarr language is (at least sometimes) called Amarish. CCP has established (as far as I can tell, Ginger edited in the part I quoted above) that The Scriptures - at least the older parts - are written in a language that cannot be Amarish, because Amarish is readable by today's Amarrians. I decided to create the "ancient tongue" mentioned.
I should also point out that the Our Speech Poem is ... poetic, and not meant to be interpreted 100% literally.
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1) Old English is unreadable to today's English speakers.
2) The developers don't do well with aesthetics. If you play by their rules at all times simply for the sake of it, you're a cute little bunny and I'm going to make a stew out of you. I don't think it's particularly clever that the Caldarians speak Caldanese, or that the Minmatars are hanging around, or that the Amarrs speak Amarrish. And half that shit came in with TonyG anyhow, so.
If it's not to be taken literally, say so in it, please. Words matter. You know why? Because every time I see people have a 'deep theological debate' on the IGS lately, it's this silly shit that revolves around interpreting the snippets of dev-approved scripture again and again rather than thinking on the result of interpolating the available cultural data we have in regards to the Amarr. And that's pitifully surface-level.
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If it's not to be taken literally, say so in it, please. Words matter. You know why? Because every time I see people have a 'deep theological debate' on the IGS lately, it's this silly shit that revolves around interpreting the snippets of dev-approved scripture again and again rather than thinking on the result of interpolating the available cultural data we have in regards to the Amarr. And that's pitifully surface-level.
I'm sorry but what?
No, I'm not going to point out in a piece of in-character fiction that the item is not to be taken literally. I leave that to context and insinuation. The structure of Our Speech is poetic, something that should be obvious. Furthermore, it's a poem (presumably) written by an Amarrian (religious) scholar, about a language almost only found in religious texts, religious ceremony and religious education. When he wrote "Amarrad is The Scripture", perhaps he meant it as a way to emphasize in a single simple sentence the close bond between the holy texts of the Amarrian religion and the language they're written in?
He could have written a whole paragraph about it, an essay, a dissertation, a paper... but A) it wouldn't have been poetic enough to last as a foreword in all religious textbooks for so long as to place the initial use so far in the past as to be indeterminable, and B) I couldn't have, because when I wrote Our Speech that was essentially the full extent of the Amarrad vocabulary.
And in-character theological debates being "silly shit that revolves around interpreting the snippets of dev-approved scripture again and again rather than thinking on the result of interpolating the available cultural data we have in regards to the Amarr"? That's exactly what theological debates are in real life, with "God" replacing "dev" and whichever people the relevant religious scripture first appeared among replacing "Amarr." Sure, some theologians can be quite reasonable and scientific in their approach, but they have a luxury of having an absolutely staggering amount of relevant prime fiction to pour over and analyse.
Even if you have every piece of Amarr PF committed to memory, there is very little for you as a player to extrapolate with. The situation is further complicated by the implication that your character has much more of the same material to work with, but you can argue that this applies to all RP.
In addition, CCP has indicated that Amarr is rife with cults that focus intently on limited Scripture passages - in part because it takes half a lifetime to read all Scripture and another half of a lifetime to figure out what it means. I think that is also part of what's driven the very narrow-focus analysis on the already narrow slice of scripture we've been offered to read.
tl;dr: I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
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Context and insinuation. Oh, dear.
YOU are the creator of this piece of history. You either give it the appropriate context at its creation, or you damn well don't stick in anything about how it was the foreword in all the textbooks. Because you can make shit up about the culture that doesn't box in everyone else, thank you very much. Not everybody likes being boxed in.
Theological debate is also not worth your low opinion, considering its appropriate role in Amarrian society according to the prime fiction. One which you're seeking to bolster, given that you're creating more material to use in said debates.
And I didn't say extrapolate, I said interpolate. Because there's plenty to interpolate from. Namely, seven years of prime fiction.
I tell you the following having looked over plenty of prime fiction and having my opinion asked damn near constantly on Amarr materials and writing fiction and what should be avoided by players seeking to respect everyone else's capacity for expression: DON'T create restrictive content that seeks to establish how EVERYTHING is for a given faction, it's language, it's history, or whatever else. That serves only your ego, not my creative outlet; being proud and defensive of it is like being happy to have put someone in a cage. Cut it out, don't do it again. There's plenty of other things to build.
You want to make a dialect? Fine.
You want to write some fluff about how things were back in the day, in this corner of the society over here? Fine.
You want to claim that ALL INSTRUCTIONAL TEXTS in a field as crucial to the others among us who like to so much as think about the Amarr had a certain work in them, a work set into the first page, a work whose character speaks to the content and form of the Amarrian scriptures? Well, SURPRISE SURPRISE! Someone's going to object, and lots of people are going to ignore you, because it upsets the concensus. It closes off more probability space than it opens. It seeks to affect the nature of what MUST apply to the group in question.
Don't do that. It cheapens the game for everyone else.
As for what CCP's story team has indicated over the years - again, I've looked at it plenty long. If you're going to take anything away from the material presented, it's that there's plenty of room for you to make shit up that doesn't reduce my capacity to make more shit up.
But thank you for constructing another story I don't want to use to add to the breadth of the game. It had been a while since anyone carried it off quite as well as you had.
Addendum: If we take the rest of the available content into consideration, Ginger and company were wrong about the nature of the scriptures. Because the rest of the content indicates that the Scriptures contain the full sum of published and respected knowledge available to the Empire, not just a few religious volumes.
There are a significant number of references to how scripture encompasses practical knowledge as well as esoteric information, art, literature, and most mainstream cultural product. EVERYTHING goes into that cauldron-pot. If we were to construct a comparison using real-world examples, the set of information that would go into such a collection would include the full range of expression of religious thinkers from now into prehistory, all published academic papers from every source that were judged to have even a modicum of truth, all literature that made it past a publisher, histories of every nation on earth, trade records, tables of data, tabulated scientific observations, and anything else significant. A paper on the production processes of laser weaponry is a scriptural document. In the Kingdom, so is Khanid's propaganda and ideology from the time of secession and the war (think Declaration of Independence). So are the records relating to the capture, administration, and award of all Mandate territory to appropriate vassals (think Louisiana purchase). The 'scriptures' that the theology council stamps 'approved' on are added to hourly; they must be - and it is only the highest source of these documents. There are plenty of others.
Let's not pretend we're talking about there just being enough administrative work here to busy the hands of a single council of theologians. There are dozens of Theology Council stations all over the Empire, and some well outside it. Why? To give a couple dozen people near the capital some folks to lord over? These places must have a function.
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Thank you for actually giving me criticism, other than "Ho-ho, no no." I honestly appreciate it.
It's definitely not my intention to make anybody overly constrained by this, no more than I imagine Napanii (as an old Caldari language or as a state lingua franca) is intended to constrain people. My only intention is to create a basis for an asset that may (however little) help make the roleplay of EVE more immersive.
I don't want this to be a one-person project, because it won't get anywhere if anyone regards it as such. All comments and items of criticism will be valued, as long as they are complete sentences :D
Addendum: If we take the rest of the available content into consideration, Ginger and company were wrong about the nature of the scriptures. Because the rest of the content indicates that the Scriptures contain the full sum of published and respected knowledge available to the Empire, not just a few religious volumes.
I'm not sure I see how that is mutually exclusive with the texts (originally) being written in a language foreign to the commoners.
Before the Moral Reforms, as far as I can tell, the Empire was a complete theocracy. The Emperor as head of the Council of Apostles might as well have been titled Pope. The church was the bureaucracy, and had the power to interfere in everything with absolute power. It needed the populace to be kept ignorant and subservient, and for the nobles to be completely dependent on the church.
If a religion wants to control the thoughts of a nation, what better way than to make sure that all scientific and authoritative writing is penned in a language only available through education from the representatives of said religion? The Catholic church controlled Europe from the fall of Rome to the Renaissance by this very technique, keeping knowledge of Latin and literacy in general confined to within monastic walls.
Would it be such a stretch to imagine that the Empire played the same game? That the theocratic state controlled the populace in part through the monopolization of Scriptural language, and ensuring that all scientific texts were written in that same language (ostensibly to ensure that those texts could be elevated to the same level as other Scriptures)?
There are a significant number of references to how scripture encompasses practical knowledge as well as esoteric information, art, literature, and most mainstream cultural product. EVERYTHING goes into that cauldron-pot. If we were to construct a comparison using real-world examples, the set of information that would go into such a collection would include the full range of expression of religious thinkers from now into prehistory, all published academic papers from every source that were judged to have even a modicum of truth, all literature that made it past a publisher, histories of every nation on earth, trade records, tables of data, tabulated scientific observations, and anything else significant. A paper on the production processes of laser weaponry is a scriptural document. In the Kingdom, so is Khanid's propaganda and ideology from the time of secession and the war (think Declaration of Independence). So are the records relating to the capture, administration, and award of all Mandate territory to appropriate vassals (think Louisiana purchase). The 'scriptures' that the theology council stamps 'approved' on are added to hourly; they must be - and it is only the highest source of these documents. There are plenty of others.
I completely agree with this view of the Scriptures. The vast majority of the Empire's scientific literature would be found within the libraries of Scripture, and any dedicated scientist in the Empire would likely need to study those same texts if she wanted to get anywhere in her work. When religious power was absolute, all scientific knowledge would likely have had to been directly approved by the precursor to the Theology Council before it was allowed to be applied to anything. That said, the Moral Reforms was a strong movement away from the theocratic control in Amarr, and this would have also applied to the control of scientific thought.
While the Theology Council - which is described as "the last vestige" of religious control in the Empire - is likely still busy with reviewing research papers for heresies or scriptural qualities, I don't think there are any indications that science in the reformed Empire needs to be expressly approved (though I imagine it can be declared heretical). This change was necessary to keep the Empire from stagnating, and absolutely vital when Amarr started bumping heads with other starfaring nations. Using a Caldari shield emission theory to design a more efficient shield booster would be neither heretical nor held up as Scripture - it would more likely fall in a broad field of "Acceptable" that might not have existed before the Reforms (or if it did, it would have been very narrow).
In addition, I believe most of the Scriptures has been translated from Amarrad to modern Amarrian (they would have had over a millennia - plenty of time, even if there's a lot of work), plus new modern texts being approved as Scripture. This is something I don't think would have happened in the pre-reform society, but has become accepted (and, indeed, the standard) after the theocratic rule was ousted from power.
I hope that explains some of my thoughts on the matter further.
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Updated the glossary, moving on to some more modern terms.
Someone may be interested to know that I used Basque to plug some glaring gaps - and the fact that Google has started including transliteration in Translate is a godsend :D
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Slow day at work, so I'm doing some of this...
English:
The Amarr people came into the world and the world came into being.
Our illustrious ancestors freed their souls from the evils of the old world and created a new one.
The great Amarr Empire was founded to cultivate the spirit of man.
To do so the enemies of the outside had to be defeated and the enemies of the inside controlled.
The Lord gave our Emperor the power to harness the Good and punish the Evil.
Ever since, the Emperor has lived the lives of his subjects and breathed the air of authority.
- The Scriptures, Book I 1:14
Amarrad:
Haman Amarru foriv Dunija haveret, ta Dunija foriv valorush haveret.
Anle Atan Amarru teynarr ruhan kuchulet en Cotijan fin Dunija Puor, ta nij dunija vashaifet.
vaiach Reshios Amarr ihyn yetistirim Insan Hamanu ejed karalmasit.
Tushman Tisindu hereket ihyn olemth jenilgh, ta Tushman Icinkhu ihyn olemth tesel, et chov ejed ihyn ulesmet
Meza kachiv amarr reshjvaj, vedet Derman ihyn Kuch cosum ta Cotij vekheb.
dentiast soner, Reshjvaj Khaies jarr fhaifen vakhait, ta hav jekhti dechjret.
- e Chorim, Buaran iekh 1:14
Lit(ish). trans:
The Men of Amarr into The World came, and The World into existence came.
Our Celebrated Ancestors liberated their souls from The Evils of The Old World, and a new world created.
The great Amarr Empire, to the spirit of man cultivate, was established.
The Enemies of the outside needed to be defeated, and the enemies of the inside needed to be in submission, for that to be achieved.
The Lord, unto our Emperor, gave the power to the Good harness and the Evil punish.
Ever since, The Emperor the lives of his subjects has lived, and air of authority breathed.
- The Scripture, Pages One 1:14
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Translated the ranks used by the 24th Imperial Crusade:
Sovalji Lejhacla - Paladin Crusader
Techme Tapinachu - Templar Lieutenant
Techme Onemel - Cardinal Lieutenant
Techme Sahu - Arch Lieutenant
Baiach Reshij - Imperial Major
Aresh Onhach - Marshal Commander
Onhach Reshvadim - Imperator Commander
Harahk Elbenij - Tribunus Colonel
Jerec Ogerat - Legatus Commodore
Tetogerat - Divine Commodore
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Cool stuff, Horatius, keep up the good work!
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Based on whats happening here. What would our Amarish names be?
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Based on whats happening here. What would our Amarish names be?
I'm not that fond of translating proper names, but I imagine Invelious' title would render as: Reshjvajarr Man - 'The Emperor's Hand' or Man Reshjvaju - 'The Hand of the Emperor'
EDIT: And, of course, there's a world of difference between Amarish (which is much younger than Amarrad and enjoys machine translation) and Amarrad.
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Some ship classes, from prior glossary expansion:
Kheber - Punisher
Tafidhas - Executioner
Qutyb - Magnate
Teslevar - Crucifier
Lejhacla - Crusader
Ghfraij - Absolution
Sefarugh - Apocalypse
Heremdakh - Armageddon
Adharat - Redeemer
Danads - Sacrilege
Tejberek - Coercer
Metrechar - Maller
Mateseb - Zealot
Sovalje - Paladin
Of course, Amarr shiptype names have the added benefit of being religious terms and concepts. :)
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Trying my hand at some organization names...
Khvaj Muhafezen en Sah - The Alliance of the Guardians of Truth
Merkez Bekzan Reshij vasherrechit - The Center of the Watchmen Imperial, incorporated
I'm sure you can guess who they are.
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Here's a list of all the real-life languages Amarrad currently draws from, roughly in order of level of influence (number of words and grammar):
Romani (Ancient Indian, Ancient Persian, Balkan mix, European mix)
Yiddish (Hebrew, German)
Turkish
Hebrew
Arabic
Persian
Basque
Latin
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(http://www.palinola.com/stuff/tet.png)
This thought has been infecting my head for a while, probably since I saw a symbol on the side of my Legion...
This is the word Tet - 'The Divine', rendered in one of the more well-known Amarrad scripts.
A glass of spiced wine to the first person to get where I extrapolated this from. Or, rather, what modern Amarrian symbol this ancient word has become.
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I've read and re-read this post. Really. You're worse than children.
This is internet spaceships and your arguing about make-believe? Nonsense. Really, how old are you two, 5?
My view is this - and I'll keep it short and sweet: there is no end-all and be-all in RP. You play your character and just get on with the wild fantasy about being an ex-secret agent demi-mortal that flies spaceships with enough firepower to blow up a small moon.
Adding content is never going to please everyone, but lets give people the room to create and make their RP that much more enjoyable.
/rant
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This Amarrad stuff is pretty damn cool looking. Nice to see some stuff that gives a more Arabic/Persian flavour to Amarr, they really have the potential to have a sort of futuristic Persian thing going on, with women in neck to toe, sleeveless robes and whatnot. With Ni-Kunni now looking unmistakably Arab it's \o/
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Cheers Seri.
If anyone wants a PF indication that Amarr use arabic-style writing, I would like to offer this (the scribbles below the third sign):
(http://content.eveonline.com/www/chronicle/img/SignsOfFaith.jpg)
Should also offer a hint to my previous question.
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This Amarrad stuff is pretty damn cool looking. Nice to see some stuff that gives a more Arabic/Persian flavour to Amarr, they really have the potential to have a sort of futuristic Persian thing going on, with women in neck to toe, sleeveless robes and whatnot. With Ni-Kunni now looking unmistakably Arab it's \o/
Mitty commonly wears an abaya when off duty :D
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Another slow day at work, with a page on perso-arabic script open and a sketch pad full of ink:
(http://palinola.com/stuff/khanid.png)
(the) Khanid
EDIT:
(http://palinola.com/stuff/amarrad.png)
amarrad
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Hmm... I'm wondering, if I should scrap my lettering scribbles and just use persian transliteration instead.
فر ا یخنیتیاست رسا زخن یخی اجد
دی چون واپلاتست تا فر ا صحیفه جارو خیس دچجرت
ا پلاتسن واپلاتست تا ایجاد مجام تینر وادت
تا کاجو یتلچ ذیل وادت
ا چرم ، براران یخ ۱:۴ -
ا همان ا امرو فرو ا دونجا هورت ، تا ا دونجا فرو والوروش هورت
ا انله اتان امرو تینر رهن کوچلت ان ا کوتیجان فن ا دونجا پور، تا نیج دونجا واشفت
ویچ ا رشیوس آمار یین یتیستیریم ا اینسان همنو اجد کارالماسط
ا تشان تیسیندو حرکت یین المته جنیلق ، تا ا توشمان یکینخو یین المته تسل ات چوو اجد الصمت
ا مزه کچو آمار رشجواج وادت درمان یین ا کوچ کسم تا ا کوتیج وخب
دنتیاست سونر، ا رشجواج ا خیس جار فهایفن واخایت، تا هو جختی دچجرت
ا چرم ، بران یخ ۱:۱۴ -
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Mitty commonly wears an abaya when off duty :D
Really? :D awesome, nice to know I'm not alone in dressing a character in futuristic variants of M Eastern wear (Anette wears kercheifs and whatnot on her head when she goes to the Empire). Woop.
Equally awesome is that Amarrad stuff there, Horatius.
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Mitty commonly wears an abaya when off duty :D
Really? :D awesome, nice to know I'm not alone in dressing a character in futuristic variants of M Eastern wear (Anette wears kercheifs and whatnot on her head when she goes to the Empire). Woop.
Equally awesome is that Amarrad stuff there, Horatius.
Dossie can be found wearing qipao or cheongsam a lot. Unless she's just been working.
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Based on whats happening here. What would our Amarish names be?
I'm not that fond of translating proper names, but I imagine Invelious' title would render as: Reshjvajarr Man - 'The Emperor's Hand' or Man Reshjvaju - 'The Hand of the Emperor'
EDIT: And, of course, there's a world of difference between Amarish (which is much younger than Amarrad and enjoys machine translation) and Amarrad.
I fully support this. Awesome work brother.
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Based on whats happening here. What would our Amarish names be?
I'm not that fond of translating proper names, but I imagine Invelious' title would render as: Reshjvajarr Man - 'The Emperor's Hand' or Man Reshjvaju - 'The Hand of the Emperor'
EDIT: And, of course, there's a world of difference between Amarish (which is much younger than Amarrad and enjoys machine translation) and Amarrad.
I fully support this. Awesome work brother.
You may be interested to know that I may have devised an explanation for Latin name endings (-us, -ius, -ios, -ious). You see, they all render the same way in Persian, and they all sound the same anyway, and I've already started applying the -ios suffix to a meaning (domain, land, country) in Amarrad.
So bear with me...
To my knowledge, there is a sparse number of PF characters that have such a suffix in their names.
Emperor Damius III, who initiated the war of conquest against the Minmatar
Commodore Barius, who explored some nullsec
Dakos, the late brother of King Khanid
Damius would have been Emperor around 400 years after the end of the Moral Reforms, which in my book would mean the Empire was using the new state language Amarish while Amarrad took a backseat role. It is however quite likely that the Old Tongue would continue to serve as inspiration for Amarrian names for a long time to come.
The Amarrad word damios means duchy (literally "lands of the city"), and while it might seem a strange thing to name a boy, it might offer some possibilities of Amarr culture. Consider that all Amarr nobility are addressed by their first names - "Empress Jamyl", "Lord Victor", etc.. Usually this likely comes from the fact that many nobles would be from the same large families and everyone can't go by "Mr. Sarum" at the Sarum Prime court, and lower holders likely adopted the custom from there.
However, it gives rise to its own problems: "Hi, I'm Lord Joe." "Lord Joe who?" "Lord Joe Kador, you simpleton!" "The Lord Joe Kador of Kamda, Lord Joe Kador of Zorozih or the Lord Joe Kador of Pezarba?" "Execute this man, and fetch me a better first name!"
I believe what happened was that Holders (royal and lower alike) started working hard to figure out unique and place-descriptive names for their children. Rather like the European thing of referring to people by where they came from (da Vinci, von Mecklenburg) but as first names, and usually more poetic. It served both as a sign of prestige (first son of a family would often find himself named after the land he was to inherit) and as way of associating a face not just with a name but also a place of origin.
Emperor Damius' name, in this interpretation, would mean that his birthright was originally mainly associated with the domain of a notable city (dam). This also shows where in life he started out, in a way. Though of course the value of his nominal duchy might vary depending on if it was at the Minmatar fringe or on Amarr Prime, his very name would eternally mark him as City Boy.
Eventually this use also faltered, mainly as the royal families established themselves and famous names started being cycled endlessly anyway. Some families in certain parts still make occasional use of this toponym naming convention, but mainly the -us/-os/-ous names you see today are the names of famous ancestors recurring in the family line.
Translated literally with this interpretation, Horatius' name (hor-ata-ios) would mean "the Yellow Ancestor Lands."
And if we find a translation for invel we can find out what Invelious means :P
tl;dr: Latinate name endings can be backformed into Amarrian personal names based on place names.
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:eek: Will there finally be a meaning to a name I made up out of thin air :D
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Oh, and I was planning to do something nice for when I got 1000 thread views, but I suppose that brain-dump will serve for now. :bear:
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:eek: Will there finally be a meaning to a name I made up out of thin air :D
I haven't been able to track down anything resembling "invel" in my real-life sources, but I have gone through the existing Amarrad glossary and may have some poetic suggestions that may suffice, mainly approaching this from the angle of a place name, which means it can be quite mangled as far as etymologies go:
I'm thinking that in may come from ikhni ("first"), or perhaps ihyn ("to" or "for")
vel might be short for valorush ("existence") or maybe vhiellth ("revelation")
The result might be something like "The Lands for Existence", "The Domain of Revelation", "The Country of First Revelation" or "The Land of the First Existence"
If it's a name referring to a place name, it may be an ancient name for Earth or the New Eden system, a famous location on Athra, or maybe just a mythological location mentioned in Scripture.
Might indicate that the proper pronunciation of the name is Ih'n-(val'/vh'll)-ios or something ;)
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<rambling>
Was looking through some Evelopedia pages in hope of mining some data for this project, and I found some interesting fan conjecture:
A second interesting feature of the family names is, that by an new takeover in the family, the new head of the family lost his nomen gentile and praenomen. He kept just his cognomen, so that Garkeh (praenomen) Khanid (nomen gentile) Khanid II (cognomen) beomes to just Khanid II. Another example: If had Dakos become the new head, Naladon Khanid Dakos, would become just to Dakos.The cognomen is also used inside the narrower family circle and in the news. Family memebers outside of the succession, like related by marriage, may not take a cognomen, like the grand admiral of the royal navy Zidarez Khanid.
This would be the Roman method of naming, having a first name, a "clan" name and a name of the family within that clan. i.e: Gaius (praenomen) Octavius (gentile) Thurinus (cognomen), later modified by a bunch of adoptions and honorifics to become Gaius Iulius Caesar Augustus.
Pretty sure Dakos would be the praenomen of Dakos Khanid, and I don't think we've seen any indication of sub-family or additional given names in PF, but it's still a good base to work from, even if the Amarr approach the different names from another direction.
For example, as noted in my wall of text above, the Amarr seem to emphasize the praenomen of its nobles - unlike Roman names where the given name was almost always ignored in favour of the family name.
If we return to my conjecture of place-naming, it's possible that the Amarr have/had Tria Nomina with a praenomen (given name, possibly several), toponym (associated place name), nomen gentile (family name) and potentially also cognomen (sub-family name or nickname).
It seems likely that if the structure was ever rigid, it's now probably turned rather fluid. As people by necessity or prestige mainly became known by their toponym, those toponyms may have re-entered use or shifted to be considered praenomen. With a more extensive number of praenomen, the cognomen as a differentiator would be rendered practically useless - so Amarr names today would likely simply be rendered praenomen + nomen gentile.
In certain large noble families (such as the royal houses) you would probably find some sort of sub-family name structure (separating the core of the family from satellite lines that are still related but hardly considered a part of the royal hierarchy), and those families would likely be driven by convention to use their sub-family name as their surname instead of the core family's name. Looking at it again, you might have something like:
First name(s) + Family name + House name (when applicable)
I know that Merdaneth has named his character Ubar-Sarum. Depending on how the family name is supposed to be regarded, the name could be de-constructed into:
Merdaneth (First name) Ubar (Family) Sarum (House)
or
Merdaneth (First name) Ubar-Sarum (Family) Sarum (House)
Horatius' name would be:
Horatius Kheed Zeremassa (First names) Caul (Family) Sarum (House)
Amarrad terms:
First name - negesh iszenu (lit: name of human/person)
Family name - negesh fhaidu (lit: name of father) or negesh atanu (lit: name of ancestors, usually reserved for family names of long history and perceived esteem)
House name - negesh hedienu (lit: name of house)
</rambling>
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An interesting thread.
I spent time over the years when I used to play EvE analysing what I interpreted to be the Amarrian language. As a speaker of Persian and Arabic, I recognised many similarities in the spelling of words. Based on looking at system names and the names of significant characters, my view is that the etymology stems from Persian, Hebrew, Arabic, and Latin - in that order. I will elucidate.
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There are reasons why I feel that Persian is the dominant root language for Amarrian;
The nuances of the Persian language, an ancient language, lend themselves to Amarrian attributes - the language is florid with words and modes of speech that denote degrees of respect, multiple words for degrees of trust, idioms rooted in religion and bazaar-culture etc. There are words that are concepts in themselves, that cannot be directly translated.
When speaking very formally, the language has enough beautifying adjectives to markedly extend a regular sentence - which is why it was adopted in the royal courts and used as the language for poetry in the indian subcontinent. When trying to insult someone, it can routinely be done with such subtlelty as to be done with polite words. Even when trying to be rude, the language does not sound offensive to those who do not understand it.
Here's a video of spoken farsi (persian):
Democracy 1/4: Persian (Farsi) Readings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1Vh38XZrls)
1) This is Farsi spoken with a significant westerner's accent.
2) Listen to his translation as he goes along.
3) Compare the sounds you hear to the sounds you could make out when reading Amarr words from the map
Examples of words (taken from the game/map) that sounds Persian
Ardishapur
Jarzalad
Hoona
Kador
Aband
Gasavak
Peyiri
Jedandan
Danyana
Sasta
etc
A single example about words in the farsi language for degrees of trust:
"These words include: e‘temaad, etminaan, and e‘teqaad. E‘temaad has wider use in business
transactions than the other two. When someone has e‘temaad in someone else, he can trust him with his
money and family, and he is sure that his friend will not leave him alone in a moment of need.
Etminaan serves in phrases such as “peace of mind” and “to rest assured,” or in cases in which one
government has requested assurances from another. E‘teqaad means profound trust or belief, with
religious connotations. Conviction in God, for example is affirmed using e‘teqaad."
Source: http://www.herzliyaconference.org/_Uploads/2614Iranianself.pdf
Recommended read!
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Persian is a softer-sounding language than the semitic Hebrew and Arabic languages. The harsher single and double-syllable words appear .
Arabic:
Uhodoh
Chanoun
Khafis
Jarizza
I could guess which words sounded Hebrew, but my rudimentary understanding of the language would be based on style rather than resemblance to actual words.
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My view on the Latin influence on Amarrian
This is where things get a bit more difficult to accurately describe.
I believe that Latin words in the Amarr language are not integral to the Amarr language itself, but are words that come from the vocabulary of the Amarr religion. It is important to distinguish this from saying that latin exists as a complete language in the EvE world - I'm not suggesting that at all!
My view is that 'whole' Latin words come from the vocabulary of the Amarr religion and are recognised as such when speaking Amarrian. I don't think that latin words form an integral part of the common Amarrian language and are seen as having a root from a language that the Amarrians themselves do not know. However, the use of such words is associated with religion and thus have a tendency to be used by clergy/educated/higher nobility.
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Err, did I miss out on the distinction between Amarrad and Amarrish?
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Yes.....I would definitely agree that quite a bit of the Amarr language is main Persian base with lots of other influences. I don't think people realize how many languages have actually taken from the original Persian language. Mediterranean ones especially along with maybe several European ones due to cultural exchange from trade. I wonder if CCP added in any Akkadian also even though it hasn't really been natively spoken in a few thousand years or so.
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Err, did I miss out on the distinction between Amarrad and Amarrish?
They have the same roots, but Amarrad is older - like French and Latin.
The effort to build Amarrad could really benefit from someone who knows languages like arabic and persian. I've been trying to incorporate as much arabic and persian stuff as I can, but it's difficult without useful transliteration services. If you have ideas to expand the glossary or the grammar, don't hesitate to post here.
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Err, did I miss out on the distinction between Amarrad and Amarrish?
They have the same roots, but Amarrad is older - like French and Latin.
The effort to build Amarrad could really benefit from someone who knows languages like arabic and persian. I've been trying to incorporate as much arabic and persian stuff as I can, but it's difficult without useful transliteration services. If you have ideas to expand the glossary or the grammar, don't hesitate to post here.
Thanks for the feedback, will do.
This thread reminded me of a short animation I made of scagga 'speaking amarrish' a few years ago.
See here:
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/scagga/th_scaggaanimated-1.jpg) (http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/scagga/?action=view¤t=scaggaanimated-1.mp4)
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Err, did I miss out on the distinction between Amarrad and Amarrish?
They have the same roots, but Amarrad is older - like French and Latin.
The effort to build Amarrad could really benefit from someone who knows languages like arabic and persian. I've been trying to incorporate as much arabic and persian stuff as I can, but it's difficult without useful transliteration services. If you have ideas to expand the glossary or the grammar, don't hesitate to post here.
Thanks for the feedback, will do.
This thread reminded me of a short animation I made of scagga 'speaking amarrish' a few years ago.
See here:
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/scagga/th_scaggaanimated-1.jpg) (http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/scagga/?action=view¤t=scaggaanimated-1.mp4)
:o
I love it!
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People are settling back into their routines after the exhausting tempest of Fanfest, so I bring refreshing treats!
Been working on pieces of this for a while, and recently hammered out the final parts. Don't do lyrics that often, and this probably deserves a few edits still. Even so, I've gone through translation to see if it works in Amarrad...
CUE MUSIC! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7zI5r6LxVE)
WE FIGHT PROUD FOR THE HOLDER - ENGLISH LYRICS
We fight proud for the Holder
We fight proud for Him-On-High
We fight proud for the Holder
Give our lives for Great Amarr
We fight proud for the Holder | Our lot to fight for God
We fight proud for Him-On-High | To gain our place at His Abode
We fight proud for the Holder | To give our lives for Great Amarr
Give our lives for Great Amarr | Lay our souls in Care of Fate
To give our lives for Great Amarr
Our flesh, our soul, our faith, our blood
We fight proud for the Holder | To gain our place at His Abode
We fight proud for Him-On-High | To stand beside the Heav'nly Throne
We fight proud for the Holder | Give our lives for Great Amarr
Give our lives for Great Amarr | To stand beside the Heav'nly Throne
WE FIGHT PROUD FOR THE HOLDER - AMARRAD LYRICS
Aman sah murid in e Sahibe
Aman sah murid in hubrana-meza
Aman sah murid in e Sahibe
amarr khaien in e Vaiach Amarr
Aman sah murid in e Sahibe | murid in Dei amarr ezem
Aman sah murid in hubrana-meza | vatkhad cheto mojem Hed-Imla
Aman sah murid in e Sahibe | ihyn khaien in e Vaiach Amarr
amarr khaien in e Vaiach Amarr | for Tetios ruhnen veda
| ihyn khaien in e Vaiach Amarr
| Insan, emun, sabik amarr
Aman sah murid in e Sahibe | vatkhad cheto mojem Hed-Imla
Aman sah murid in hubrana-meza | vamam yania e Hubrana-taht
Aman sah murid in e Sahibe | amarr khaien in e Vaiach Amarr
amarr khaien in e Vaiach Amarr | vamam yania e Hubrana-taht
The song would have a choir and a solist (choir on the left, solist on the right above), likely a boy's choir and a mature male vocalist. It's a Kameira psalm, highlighting their position of servitude and their struggle to approach God in their grisly duty.
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Omnomnomnom.
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Epic - Now we need to get a Choir to Sing it.
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It reads very nicely old chap, stellar work. One can see the various language origins cooked into the cake :)
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Coinciding with this thread reaching 1600 views and over 50 posts, the glossary (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&hl=en&key=0AgVYINUB8y0gdEYxNGo1Z3JzNEd4QW5OekJrVUNySWc&single=true&gid=0&output=html) has grown to over 500 words!
Might be time to start cranking out a coherent and consistent grammar...
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I.....love....you?
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Coinciding with this thread reaching 1600 views and over 50 posts, the glossary (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&hl=en&key=0AgVYINUB8y0gdEYxNGo1Z3JzNEd4QW5OekJrVUNySWc&single=true&gid=0&output=html) has grown to over 500 words!
Might be time to start cranking out a coherent and consistent grammar...
\o/ Horatius!
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Cheers guys!
I wish to once again stress that I don't mean for Amarrad to be a one-man project. If anyone wants to chip in, be it with ideas for single words, phrases or idioms, translations, grammar ideas, PF words I've missed (I'm sure there is at least a couple out there I have overlooked), etc., I would be more than happy to have it.
And again, all feedback is welcome - as long as it's more than "You suck!" or "You rock!" (though I have to admit that the latter does make me feel warm and fuzzy).
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I can appreciate that this may complicate things, but at some point, perhaps we could consider working on the
I also have suggestions for the glossary book, to do with cases.
I presume (please correct me if I'm wrong), that the case you are using there is the nominative (i.e. how it would appear in a dictionary) case. There are words that you've placed there that in my view sound more like they have been conjugated towards the past tense or to one of the pronoun articles.
e.g.
120. Vakhid = see. As a farsi/arabic speaker, to me, it sounds like 'he/she saw'. Vakhidan would sound like 'to see', or 'the faculty of sight'.
There are small spelling/sound suggestions I'd make for certain words, when time permits.
I would strongly suggest you focus on more pronouns - as Amarr culture is very stratified, it is important to have pronouns to address those above, very above, and below us. It is important to have degrees of politeness that one can use (see the comparison I gave in my earlier long post, where I cited the different persian words for 'trust').
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Other suggestions:
- Conjugation in general, what would the rules be to convert the base verbs to conjugate with he, she, it, them, etc?
- Cases - will they feature significantly?
- Compound words, e.g. gereftanbikar (lit. to be in a state of being taken by work /effectually: busy), peydanih (a lost one, close to peydaneest, which would mean '[it] cannot be found')
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I can appreciate that this may complicate things, but at some point, perhaps we could consider working on the
The what?
Anyway:
Yes, verb conjugation may need to be revised. I don't want to just take the whole grammar from persian and call it a done job, but I also don't want it to be jarring for someone who may recognize some roots. It's an area that should definitely be sorted out as grammar is nailed down properly.
Pronouns? Definitely an area that can be expanded and complicated, especially if we develop cases.
Compound words I believe will be easier to develop if I get down to dismantling the current glossary to extract word roots and such, and making proper rules for making adjectives, adverbs and verbs from those roots.
One thought I've been toying with recently is to have two (or more) distinct types of verbs, essentially one active/delivering and one passive/receiving. For example, the Amarrad versions of the verbs "kill" and "die" could both have the same root, but different verb padding. Again, I'm not a real-life language expert, so I'm not sure if there are real examples of this kind of stuff, but if nothing else it might save some work in the root department :P
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I can appreciate that this may complicate things, but at some point, perhaps we could consider working on the
The what?
:lol:
I can be a bit absentminded. The necessary content is latent within the post, I wrote that sentence then had other ideas of how to proceed.
Definitely agree with not lifting the entire vocab/grammar from one language. However, roots would be very valuable in my view, particularly for understanding and constructing new words.
Arabic is quite good at this, where there are three core letters that bind words of similar meaning together.
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Okay, a bit of a draft for some verb rules.
prefix + root + conjugation suffix
Verbs are divided into three rough groups - active, passive, and irregular. With english examples, "do", "give" and "conquer" would be active verbs; while "be", "have" and "succumb" would be passive verbs. Irregular verbs can be either active or passive (or span both groups), but generally don't follow grammatical conventions to the same degree as the others.
'la-' and 'ra-' are the most common prefixes for active verbs.
'va-' and 'ha-' are the most common prefixes for passive verbs.
(yes, I know this means I probably have to retcon a whole bunch of glossary entries)
Simple conjugation tables. Stuff here retcons the first page.
Root: l-g-r (poem, psalm, song, music)
Noun: alagor (song)
Simple Present: lagorir (sing)
Simple Past: lagorimid (sang)
Present Participle: lagorim (singing)
Present Past: lagorit (sung)
Root: w-r-d (language, speech, rhetoric, linguistics)
Noun: rad (speech)
Simple Present: laradir (speak)
Simple Past: laradihd (spoke)
Present Participle: laradirem (speaking)
Present Past: laradit (spoken)
Root: kh-j-d (see, experience, regard, observe, awareness)
Noun: khijd (sight)
Simple Present: rakhin (see)
Simple Past: rakhijd (saw)
Present Participle: rakhidem (seeing)
Present Past: rakhijt (seen)
Conjugations still make me go :bash:, so if anyone want to make a better (or expanded) proposal, please, please do.
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Just wanted you to know I named my station in A2-V27 "Amen Sah" from this thread, which means "we fight" from "Aman sah murid in e Sahibe" or "we fight proud for the Holder."
I might change it soon, but I wanted some of this to be tangible and in-game for the record :)
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Aman Sah would just mean "we true" or "we truly" - aman sah murid in e sahibe would literally translate to "we truly fight for the holder"
It's because I at first didn't have a word for proud, and later had a word that didn't fit in the lyrics, so I just decided to broaden the meaning of Truth to also encompass Pride.
"We fight" would be aman murid, or possibly am'murid if we start doing pronoun shifts of verbs.
It's still nice to see someone using this pile of random.
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I have also nicked a couple of words from the Amarrad for use in my (while currently unused) Alt-corp.
Its good stuff :P
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:eek: Will there finally be a meaning to a name I made up out of thin air :D
Hahahahahaha.
That happened to me today. Horatius, consider this a rambling thank you note.
I noticed the latest round on the etymology of names (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1502986) and said to myself "Huh, you never did get around to figuring out what Vieve's middle name meant".
Her middle name is "Amhaline". When I created the name, I just threw together syllables that sounded vaguely Arabic, since her Amarr god worshiping father gave her that name. (He picked his own name -- Alons Tisserand -- out of a Federation comm directory.)
I did a Web search for parts of "Amhaline" and came up with an Omani proverb:
man amhal ... ahmal, translated as "He who delays ... neglects".
This made me go 'huh'. It probably would have made me go 'huh' more if I understood Arabic.
I then hit the Amarrad glossary. I didn't find words close to amhal or ahmal, or definitions for 'delay', 'wait', 'hesitate,' 'neglect', 'ignore' or 'abandon'. I did find the lovely pronoun lav 'she/her', which, for giggles, I appended to amhal.
amha'lav
Unfortunately, this construction's got an apostrophe in it. That combined with that terminal 'v', and I can't help but look at it and think Vieve's dad might have grown up next door to Ze'ev and Shin in Tierjiev ... which so didn't happen.
So I peered at the verbs in the Amarrad glossary, and made some minor adjustments to the proverb text.
amhal became 'amhah' - which I think means 'to delay', 'to wait', 'to hesitate', and feel free to think so too (or suggest otherwise, if that won't fit the new conjugation schema). I turned ahmal into 'ahmak' - 'to neglect', 'to ignore', 'to abandon'.
amhahlav looked a little better to my eyes, but not perfect. I'm not familiar enough with the constructions here to feel right about using pronouns as suffixes. So I dropped the 'lav', and took another look at the '-ine' suffix in Amhaline. That's used in Greek, French and Latin to suggest "like or of", and stuck on the end of a bunch of male names to make them feminine (e.g. Francine, Claudine).
And then I imagined a conversation between Alons and Celeste that might have gone like this.
Alons: Amhah.
Celeste: Patience?
Alons: You could translate it as that.
Celeste: But you aren't.
Alons shrugs slightly.
Celeste: One of these days I'll get a straight answer from you...
Alons: ... and you won't like it.
Celeste: Very likely not. Hmm. Vieve Amhah ... I don't like it. People will forever be thinking we just bastardized the spelling of Emma. And it just doesn't flow.
Alons: Fine. Name her Emma.
Celeste: You're horrid at looking like you don't care...
Alons: I'll work on that.
Celeste ... and it'd have to be Emmaline in order to flow, and that's just one step away from giving her both of my grandmother's names. Genevieve Emmaline? Can you just imagine? She'd grow up to be a...
Alons: Librarian.
Celeste: I was thinking romance novelist.
Alons: The medication is polluting your mind.
Celeste: Quite. So ... Vieve Amhaline?
Alons: If you like.
Celeste: I believe I do. It seems strangely appropriate, even if it doesn't entirely mean patience.
Alons: Mmm.
I believe the translation, particularly with Celeste's appending that '-ine' suffix is very close to 'obstacle; thing that causes waits, delays and hesitation'.
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'm-h-a, - root: delay, patience, stop, ignore, leave undone
:D
I should really get around to working out a root index, with child-words.
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Ok, I'm definately loving this!
Kinda missed on the "Aman Sah" translation, we've been using Aman Sah as "We fight" for a bit now. And if the right sig comes up, I did one using the full phrase. Next time, I'll try to do it with Arabic script.
I'm not a good linguist, but I do know history. An influence on certain aspects of language and culture in the general Persian area was the influence of the Mongols. And Arabic culture definately influenced Mongol culture as well. So it would seem to me that the Khanid and Khanid dialects might easily reflect this as well.
I guess i'll take a look through a few things and see if I can come up with a good working example.
In the meantime, there is one aspect of Amarr language that I feel needs some development too.
Expletives and invictives. ;)
We probably don't have to go into the full "sailor with tourettes" level of extreme swearing (or as I like to call it, Brooklynese), but I think a few of us might like to toss in the occasional Amarr-style cuss word from time to time on IGS. Obviously, we shouldn't try to circumvent CCPs language filter, but terms like "pig" "dog" "one who sleeps with slaver hounds" "person of questionable birth" "person with no clearly defined maternal lineage" and such might be fun to develop.
Any thoughts?
I see
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Discrepancy fix!
Considering how deeply rooted Amarrad would be in tradition and ritual, it's possible that a phrase such as Aman Sah - while technically meaning "We Proud" or "We Truthful" - in this case would evoke the implication of battle through its connection to Murid (to fight), which has been drilled into every Amarrian citizen from a very young age through "We Fight Proud For The Holder"
Technically, Aman Sah would be a grammatically meaningless phrase, but from its historical and religious context everybody who knows the words in that phrase would also know the title of the song.
Crying "Aman Sah!" would essentially be a short form for "We fight for the users Holders! (and we're proud/srs about it)"
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Points of information ;)
'murid' (depending on pronounciation), means 'sick' (pl.) in Arabic.
Mordeh means dead (pl) in Farsi
Iman means faith in both
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Silly Vaari cultist and your tongues.
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Silly Vaari cultist and your tongues.
LOL!!!
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Considering the developments these past few days, I doubt I'll be around much in EVE up ahead.
If I feel inspired, I might work a bit more on this project, but if I were you I wouldn't count on any further (ir)regular production from my end. If anyone else wants to pick up where I'm leaving off, I'd be happy to take on an advisory role in development.
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Considering the developments these past few days, I doubt I'll be around much in EVE up ahead.
If I feel inspired, I might work a bit more on this project, but if I were you I wouldn't count on any further (ir)regular production from my end. If anyone else wants to pick up where I'm leaving off, I'd be happy to take on an advisory role in development.
/me is sad
:(
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People are settling back into their routines after the exhausting tempest of Fanfest, so I bring refreshing treats!
Been working on pieces of this for a while, and recently hammered out the final parts. Don't do lyrics that often, and this probably deserves a few edits still. Even so, I've gone through translation to see if it works in Amarrad...
<snip>
The song would have a choir and a solist (choir on the left, solist on the right above), likely a boy's choir and a mature male vocalist. It's a Kameira psalm, highlighting their position of servitude and their struggle to approach God in their grisly duty.
I'm not sure if this is the place for it but...
There is, for those of you who haven't heard of it, a famous series of SF novels about mercenaries called the Dorsai trilogy by Gordon R. Dickson.
Book two introduces a competing group of mercs from a bunch of impoverished colonies settled by religious extremists. They are called the Friendlies. Their battle hymn goes:
Soldier, ask not - now or ever,
Where to war your banners go.
Anarch's legions all surround us
Strike - and do not count the blow.
Glory, honour, praise and profit,
Are but toys of tinsel worth.
Render up your work unasking,
Leave the human clay to earth.
Blood and sorrow, pain unending,
Are the portion of us all.
Grasp the naked sword opposing.
Gladly in the battle fall.
So shall we, anointed soldiers,
Stand at last before the Throne.
Baptized in our wounds, red-flowing,
Sealed unto our Lord - alone!
Sounds OK for the Amarr, no? No idea if it would work in Amarrad though.
It's usually sung to the tune of an old New Model Army marching song (from the English Civil War for those of you who don't know who they are) called Babylon is Fallen.
Music, and original lyrics, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmDwjDiDXb8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmDwjDiDXb8).
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Nicely done!
Languages are sort of my "thing" especially those of central and western asia :D
The Amarr RP pancakes are, indeed, coated in tasty syrup!
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Because I found myself in need of a generic greeting:
Ashaltiasten
Ashal - good, blessed, holy
tiast - time, moment
-en - plural suffix
Basically a broad "good morning/day/evening" that could either be an organic development or something that came out of post-unification Athran society where people were communicating across timezones, and which carried over into space as people were operating on completely different local clocks.
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I love the idea of this so I thought I would see if I had the skill to help. As a result I have translated http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Holder_Oath (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Holder_Oath) into Amarrad. Please let me know what you think.
English:
Give strength to my hands, O God, to wipe away all stain, so that I may be able to serve you in purity of mind and body.
Lord, set Avetat the staff of salvation in my hand to fend off all the assaults of Molok.
Purify me, Lord, and cleanse my heart so that, washed in the Blood of the Ancients, so that I may be able to lead the people in purity of mind and body.
Lord, gird me with the belt of purity and extinguish my fleshly desires, that the virtues of reverence and service may abide within me.
Lord, restore Avetat the crown of immortality, which I lost through the collusion of our first parents, and, unworthy as I am to approach Thy sacred mysteries, may I yet gain eternal joy.
Amarrad:
E fin tey emarr Dei emarr manan valoutit e derm neercotim emarr lojvamil ta necrunh vaslecei Dei e Tet
khane man veda Avetat e ribnarermi kuchcot ulesm sedch murek ur Molok
neercotim em khane, ta kuchul emarr lojha Chov avotheti sabiku chov em labili onhachu Haman neercotu lojvamil ta necrunh
Khane jomn em sher cosum neercot vizotir em emarr sjamau vanec chov em ashal yetistirim lab vavor icinkh em.
Khane leheneratu Avetat e taash meretat chov em galdu amarr ikhni jafha, nepemkuch hurbil Dei e tet ascunscrat lab em osedas gasi ubday posa.
Lit(ish). trans:
from you my God my hands tied the power to purify my mind and body to serve God the Divine
Lord to my hand give Avetat the staff of salvation to achieve defeat of the fight off Molok
Purify me, Lord, and liberate my heart that, washed in the Blood of the Ancients, so that I may be the leader of the men pure of mind and body.
Lord, stenght me with the harness of pure and bleed me of my fleshly, meatly desires, that the holyness cultivate reverence may live inside me.
Lord, restore Avetat the crown of immortality, that I lost through the collusion of our first parents, and, unworthy as I am to approach God The divine mysteries, may I future gain eternal joy.
Boffles
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ok so to explain some of my word choses, find below the explaination of where the words came from
amkhim=Light or Moving Sun, general light
Khim = religious light
Khimtetu= belief= Light (sun) of the divine = khim tetu
Herartetu = Disbelief = Night of the divine = Herart tetu
ekhimtetu = believer = A person with the word of the light of the divine = em Khim tetu
teheratetu = Unbeliever= A person with the night of the divine = tey Herart tetu
kuchcot = Salvation = liberate from evil = Kuchul fin cotij
fincot = sin = from evil =fincotij
fincotey = sinner
neercot = pure = not with evil = nep sher cotij
If this is completely terrible feel free to tell me so
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:cube:
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:cube:
Is that good or bad ?
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:cube:
Is that good or bad ?
Yes.
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Arteko amkhimu amkh ta Khimtetu for Dei e tet, theko alej emun
Between the light of the sun and the belief in God the Divine there is but faith
I really should create an Amarr character. :)
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Edit : Removed as realised that made a fundimental error I will post again soon
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<rambling>
Was looking through some Evelopedia pages in hope of mining some data for this project, and I found some interesting fan conjecture:
A second interesting feature of the family names is, that by an new takeover in the family, the new head of the family lost his nomen gentile and praenomen. He kept just his cognomen, so that Garkeh (praenomen) Khanid (nomen gentile) Khanid II (cognomen) beomes to just Khanid II. Another example: If had Dakos become the new head, Naladon Khanid Dakos, would become just to Dakos.The cognomen is also used inside the narrower family circle and in the news. Family memebers outside of the succession, like related by marriage, may not take a cognomen, like the grand admiral of the royal navy Zidarez Khanid.
This would be the Roman method of naming, having a first name, a "clan" name and a name of the family within that clan. i.e: Gaius (praenomen) Octavius (gentile) Thurinus (cognomen), later modified by a bunch of adoptions and honorifics to become Gaius Iulius Caesar Augustus.
Pretty sure Dakos would be the praenomen of Dakos Khanid, and I don't think we've seen any indication of sub-family or additional given names in PF, but it's still a good base to work from, even if the Amarr approach the different names from another direction.
For example, as noted in my wall of text above, the Amarr seem to emphasize the praenomen of its nobles - unlike Roman names where the given name was almost always ignored in favour of the family name.
If we return to my conjecture of place-naming, it's possible that the Amarr have/had Tria Nomina with a praenomen (given name, possibly several), toponym (associated place name), nomen gentile (family name) and potentially also cognomen (sub-family name or nickname).
It seems likely that if the structure was ever rigid, it's now probably turned rather fluid. As people by necessity or prestige mainly became known by their toponym, those toponyms may have re-entered use or shifted to be considered praenomen. With a more extensive number of praenomen, the cognomen as a differentiator would be rendered practically useless - so Amarr names today would likely simply be rendered praenomen + nomen gentile.
In certain large noble families (such as the royal houses) you would probably find some sort of sub-family name structure (separating the core of the family from satellite lines that are still related but hardly considered a part of the royal hierarchy), and those families would likely be driven by convention to use their sub-family name as their surname instead of the core family's name. Looking at it again, you might have something like:
First name(s) + Family name + House name (when applicable)
I know that Merdaneth has named his character Ubar-Sarum. Depending on how the family name is supposed to be regarded, the name could be de-constructed into:
Merdaneth (First name) Ubar (Family) Sarum (House)
or
Merdaneth (First name) Ubar-Sarum (Family) Sarum (House)
Horatius' name would be:
Horatius Kheed Zeremassa (First names) Caul (Family) Sarum (House)
Amarrad terms:
First name - negesh iszenu (lit: name of human/person)
Family name - negesh fhaidu (lit: name of father) or negesh atanu (lit: name of ancestors, usually reserved for family names of long history and perceived esteem)
House name - negesh hedienu (lit: name of house)
</rambling>
First of all... Nice work realy good...
Now I have the feeling I have to expalin my self :P
So Why I choose.. the three name... that first...
I have write the article in the old days, where you can have just two names... so I choose first three names, because I was annoy about the user... like Khand ||, Khanid ii, Khanid II or Khanid ıı. You could always count that all 6 months someone of those peolpe show up... with something like "Im your King" etc...
The second reason was... that I thought that if the family had just two names Khanid Khanid would be sound weird... and it very possible that the family would use another name to like... Louis XIV of France and his ancestors and his successor... because almost every boy in the family had the name Louis.. would the mother screem after one, she had to use a nickname like Xavier... etc.. the rest have I pull out of thin air. :P
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I dunno. I kinda like the idea that King Khanid's name really is Khanid Khanid the Second (which of course adds the fact that there was someone else named Khanid Khanid before him) :P
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em noc ejed fin e ikhni cliptab ejed emarr shaife ata cliptabu emarr exkhaies vaslech aphrimu imla
em noc ejed fin e ikhni passado cliptabu emarr khaies atingere et tarafin aphrimu imla
em noc usc emarr vamilsit ta vamoijr ejed mai emkuchu aphrimu imla
lab em iekh dive dovedi em nay iekhu ambeden
I who was from my birth to my death under the Blessing of god
I who have been in each moment of my life touched by the blessing of god
I who with my thoughts and fears have never been worthy of the blessing of god
May I one day prove myself once more to be one of Gods believers
Sorry been gone so long. I have something more very soon.
moment, cliptab
until, ata
touch, atingere
last, passado
prove, dovedi
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Louella made an excellent post in the Northern Sebiestor thread about giving words to unique concepts. Thinking about that I could identify two clear such concepts in amarish and set out to make some more for amarrad.
The two I identified were kaoli (the idea of siding with a person and take on any threats against them as threats to yourself) and shatol'syn (the act of sacrificing yourself for the sake of stability). Shatol'syn is interesting because it's a two-parter and can thus be broken apart for more stuff. I admit that my extrapolation from the word is entirely based on my rather speculative take on its meaning, but it makes a good base for future work, and a good thematic anchor that people can recognize. Thus:
shatol - n. taken bluntly it means "balance" but the way it's used in the scriptures it's closer to "divine order" and "greater good".
syn - n. "suicide", usually in a context of noble sacrifice. Warrior saints of old who took their own lives rather than be captured by the enemy are usually said to commit syn.
Combined, shatol'syn makes the ultimate sacrifice for the sake of stability. It probably existed as a concept way before the Moral Reforms, but after the new order was instated the term was definitely brought to the fore anew. It was what had to be necessary to ensure there were no potential usurpers within the Empire after a succession - a sacrifice to ensure the stability of order.
Using shatol we can build similar related terms. One I could identify as probably being common in a struggling minor community as well as in a sprawling feudal empire is to set aside your own desires and motivations if it preserves order. Combining some of the roots I have developed for amarrad I came up with this:
ezmyj - n. "no mouth" or "closed jaw"
shatol'ezmyj - the act of going with a closed mouth - silent and hungry - if it benefits stability and, by extension, one's ability to speak and eat in the future. This would be both a virtue in times of struggle, something parents threaten their children with, and something lords invoke to ask for patience from their vassals. It would also mean ignoring corruption and malpractice if drawing attention to it might have a destabilizing effect. Generally it's a concept that saturates much of Amarr society. The modern example would be tolerance of Jamyl's reign despite her suspicious ascendancy, as well as the lack of opposition towards Karsoth's interregnum.
Also working from existing amarrad roots, I constructed the following words for unique concepts:
imheyeshe - someone who pays lip service to the faith (rather serious insult)
vinashilam - a non-clergyman who knows the scriptures (a wise noble or commoner)
ambajzil - a non-clergyman who thinks he knows the scriptures (another insult, humorously very similar to "imbecile")
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Im so going to call people ambajzil now. :cube:
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We all know Amarrians really sound like the Martians in Mars Attacks
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Louella made an excellent post
\o/
shatol'ezmyj - the act of going with a closed mouth - silent and hungry - if it benefits stability and, by extension, one's ability to speak and eat in the future. This would be both a virtue in times of struggle, something parents threaten their children with, and something lords invoke to ask for patience from their vassals. It would also mean ignoring corruption and malpractice if drawing attention to it might have a destabilizing effect. Generally it's a concept that saturates much of Amarr society. The modern example would be tolerance of Jamyl's reign despite her suspicious ascendancy, as well as the lack of opposition towards Karsoth's interregnum.
I like this one, because, one of the Amarr corporation descriptions mentions how there have been periods of famine in the past.
"Nurtura - The Amarrians have whole planets dedicated to food production, the populous state has bitter experience from famine and wants to make sure it never experiences famine again on a large scale. Nurtura is one of the larger Amarrian agricultural companies, one that has been in the forefront of exporting basic foodstuff to the other empires."
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Yeah, it might stem from historical famines. Learn to endure the hunger, and when you have lived through the famine there will be all the more food on the table for you.
The concept would have gradually turned into patience for the greater picture though.
The Tash-Murkon family endured political hardship for their heritage, but still served with distinction. They worked hard and didn't make a fuss - and when the time came around their shatol'ezmyj paid off, taking up the royal seat of House Khanid.
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Horatius,
Hope you don't mind but I have used a little Amarrad in my submission to EON. Fingers cross if it gets in means Amarrad would become Canon... We can but hope.
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The language belongs to everyone. No need to ask permission, but as always it's nice when people post that they've used it - just to show it's alive.
I hope you get published!
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Just for a bit of fun. In honour of the Queen's Diamond Jubilee in the UK... I give you the national Anthem....
Imla muhaf amarr kuch reshjval.
Onli vavor amarr khaios reshjval.
Dei muhaf e reshjval.
Veda lav iach jenilgh,
aphrid ta hubrana.
Onil vatejbrek rana amarr.
Dei muhaf e reshjval
And the translation...
God guard our good Empress
Long live our lordly (domain) Empress
God guard the Empress
Give her no defeat,
Blessed and heavenly.
Long coerce above our (us?)
God Guard the Empress
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Because I found myself in need of a generic greeting:
Ashaltiasten
Ashal - good, blessed, holy
tiast - time, moment
-en - plural suffix
Basically a broad "good morning/day/evening" that could either be an organic development or something that came out of post-unification Athran society where people were communicating across timezones, and which carried over into space as people were operating on completely different local clocks.
As I resent the shortening of this greeting to "Ashal" (it's just sloppy language ;P ), but acknowledge the fact that it gets quite repetitive if the proper response is Ashaltiasten as well, I put a little thought into that.
My suggestion is that the proper response would be something along the lines of "Ashalagram":
Ashal - truth, holiness, right, good
agram - endless, eternal (cf. herartagram - endless night)
So, the response would be an affirming "Good(ness) eternal!" What do you people think? Horatius?
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Sounds good.
I'd suggest that a more agreeable shortening would be Ash'ten or Ash'en, with Ash'ram or Ash'am as the reply.
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The shortenings you suggest sound more agreeable to me, indeed! :)
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The good news is that my short story "The Soulless Pilgrim" made it into the latest edition of EON which words and sentences from Amarrad. Unfortunately there is no credit in it for Horatius Caul for creating it for which I am very sorry.
It includes the phrases Izok and "Lab em iekh dive dovedi em nay iedkhu ambeden". It also introduces the Sanctum of the high Sacellums, Holders of Amarrad.
I hope that I have done justice to the work done here.
I would like to submit a further work to EON in the style that was done once before, a selection of scriptures, but this time in Amarrad. Would anyone else be interested in creating a few four line verse ? I am thinking that if it was submitted it would be credited to eve-inpiracy itself.
Boffles
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Unfortunately there is no credit in it for Horatius Caul for creating it for which I am very sorry.
It's a community project. I wouldn't want to be credited with creating it anyway :P
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Saint Caul the Wordsmith. Why not? :lol:
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Just was wondering what had become of this? While I dont think anyone will ever (nor should they!) "speak" a language ICly, this was a damn cool project, I hope it hasnt died =(
If you ever need, drop me a mail or PM or whatever. I think I know someone who speaks Romani ;)
Ava
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I've used Amarrad to name quite a few of my ships...and I've even brought it into the Minecraft server I play on.
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I haven't updated anything since the start of the year, for various reasons.
However, I maintain that whether I update things or not shouldn't have any bearing on the life of this project. If people like it and use it they should mention it, if they think they can contribute they should.
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Contributing a word!
qati
adj : exact, absolute, precise
I needed a word that started with Q and ended up coming with this. It is derived from the Urdu word qataee or qatai ( قطعی ) which means the same thing. Hope it's able to fit.
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Sounds great! ;)
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Well, although I'm new and haven't read everything yet, here are some ideas/remarks. :) Perhaps it sounds like splitting hairs.
Nouns
Possession can be expressed using either the -i (of/in) or -(n)u (of/from) suffixes, -i usually being applied to the subject (Sani Sabik - Friends in Blood) and -(n)u applied to the object (Imud Hubrau - Beast of Heaven). The two possessives are as a rule never combined. The -(n)u suffix is often attached to possessive pronouns to form words equivalent to "of his", "of theirs", etc. (e'shlech jarru - a slave of his).
Two different kinds of suffixes, or actually genetive cases, interesting. Actually I'm a little bit surprised to see a case that means 'in' and is here translated as a possessive marker, but maybe I'm wrong in my thinking. I don't think you can really consider them to be alike, though. Perhaps the -i is a remnant of a locative case.
Also, I don't understand the subject-object part. Am I correct here that you consider 'san' as the subject part of 'sani sabik', and 'hubra' the object of 'imud'?
'Sani Sabik' seems like a regular compound to me, and therefore I would expect it to be written as one word, or case marking on both elements.
Basically 'jarru' appears to be a form of hypercorrection, then? After all, 'jarr' itself is already the genetive form of nominative 'jav'. The English form 'theirs' is originally an inflected adjective, written: 'theirselves'. Hence, I think, it becomes clear where the final -s comes from. (By the way, of course I'm not a native speaker of English, but I had the impression constructions like 'of his' are rather marginal phenomena?)
Definite article is usually left to inflection and context. In writing is it usually represented by a capital letter. In special cases, the word e is injected into the mix to make things pop (Dei e Tet - God the Divine; e Chorim - the Scriptures).
Perhaps this is interesting too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_(grammar)#Evolution. Anyhow, I've got a question about your first fictional quote: Amarrad naji divreon Sacerotu, Darogu, ta Mispalu'. How do I have to translate 'ta' here? I also used CTRL+F to look it up in your glossary, but couldn't find it. First I thought it was an article.
Verbs
Most verbs begins with va-/la-, and many end in -eer/-ir, but there's plenty of irregularities already. Anyway, the conjugations are pretty regular. Everybody now: Hooray! Conjugations! :D :bash:
Why do a lot of verbs begin with va-, or end with -eer/-ir? It sounds like affixes, but then what is their meaning?
Just an idea: did you ever try glossing? You can easily make those in a Word document. When glossing some basic sentences to display the syntaxis of the language (questions, indicatives, passives etc.), everything can be translated, analysed etc. much easier (by yourself and by readers). :) Would be awesome for feedback etc.
Also, I wonder how I'm to pronounce all this. Do you have a table with all the phonemes listed?
Verbs are divided into three rough groups - active, passive, and irregular.
With irregular you mean ditransitive? It would be particularly interesting to mess around with semantics in this field. After all, every language community has its own ideas (unconscious), otherwise we would be simply translating everything here directly from English into Amarr. For instance, English 'to live' is basically intransitive (exception: to live a great life etc.), but a semantical shift towards the transitive spectrum in a religious community would be interesting: to live something, namely God, or heavenly rules, or whatever.
Root: l-g-r
I like this semitic move. This is useful as a starting point to create semantic networks/families, because roots are often used to create new words that are a little different. For instance, k-t-b is Arab for 'writing', and from this stem 'kitab' is derived, which means 'book', but also words like 'iktataba', 'he copied'. Etc.
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Oh thank god, someone who knows what they're doing, unlike myself. If anything isn't making sense, just assume it's because I'm not actually educated in grammar and linguistics. I like to think that I'm decent at figuring out how languages work, but not actually why they work, or putting it into solid terminology.
ta means "and". It's word 223 in the glossary.
You can ignore most shit I've written about grammar, especially the early stuff which has probably been revised later on. Establishing roots is something I found useful later on, yeah - especially as it means the community could build more new words that way. I think the direction I was heading was to possibly have several roughly synonymous roots, which would have come from different cultures (Amarr, Udorian, Khanid, Takmahl), possibly giving rise to some roots being more official, technical, or noble; and others being utilitarian, lower-class, or crude. If you have ideas for explaining or revising, or at all making sense of the grammar, I cannot welcome it enough.
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You can ignore most shit I've written about grammar, especially the early stuff which has probably been revised later on [1]. Establishing roots is something I found useful later on, yeah - especially as it means the community could build more new words that way. I think the direction I was heading was to possibly have several roughly synonymous roots, which would have come from different cultures (Amarr, Udorian, Khanid, Takmahl), possibly giving rise to some roots being more official, technical, or noble; and others being utilitarian, lower-class, or crude. [2] If you have ideas for explaining or revising, or at all making sense of the grammar, I cannot welcome it enough.
Ad 1: Okay! ;)
Ad 2: Well, first you could make a Swadesh list of words, or roots. Then you've got basic vocabulary items plus a starting point for creating those 'webs' I was talking about. As you say, this system is easy to build upon for other players indeed, plus it provides a more firm foundation for the fictional history, because it is easy to use a root, change affixes, some vowels and in this way creating a new word with a new language (Udorian, Khanid whatever).
Actually this is your project, so I didn't wish to interfere too much. But here are some concrete ideas.
As I read your work, it seems that you are going for a Semitic look, and for a more synthetic (lots of affixes in stead of loose words) structure. If you do this, you should look at
- The 'case hierarchy': the most common cases are the nominative (blank, zero) and accusative (object: 'he sees me'). Genetives, datives, locatives etc. are more secundary. This means that íf a language has a genetive, like yours, it will certainly have an accusative as well. The question now is: how many cases do you want?
- Agreement. It is common for synthetical languages to have a lot of agreement of e.g. particles and adjectives with the inflected noun. So: des heren, Middle Dutch for 'of the lord', and in Modern Dutch its 'van de heer'. Des was a case form of de.
- Of course there doesn't have to be a strict line between analytical and synthetical. On the one and you find English, on the other Latin, but somewhere in between is Italian. Italian has clear conjugated words, like in your language, that allows pronouns to be deleted. It also has a lot of agreement, e.g.: La casa piccola ('the small house') and il ragazzo piccolo ('the small boy'). Here's how Arabic does it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_nouns_and_adjectives
- If you wish to 'rebuild' your glossary for the sake of a harmonious, logical and consistent stem-based system, you should consider the sounds you want to put into the language. No language has all sounds. A consonant based language, like Arab and Hebrew (the ones you are aiming for) has a lot of consonant phonemes (28), since consonants bear the most information. This is exactly the reason why the alphabet was written with consonants only. You could simply copy the Arabic list of phonemes, if you like. Besides, not all combinations of those recognized phonemes are allowed. English does have [š], [k] and [r], but starting a word with škr- is not done. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_phonology
- About those stems, if you're going to do that. I'm not sure, but it seems likely to me that vowels aren't inserted at will, randomly. There should be patterns. Not only for grammatical reasons, but also because consonantal context may trigger specific vowel changes. And of course affixes can trigger this too.
Take for instance the stem w-r-d you proposed, meaning 'word'. A web could contain the following concepts (and phonotactis depend on your inventory of sounds):
word: worod
informing: tarafworda (taraf: ‘by’; second o is deleted because of word length; a indicates an infinitive verb)
support: tarvrawrada (taraf + verkh (‘other’); f and v assimilate)
reason: vamilorod (vamil: ‘think’, w is deleted, because wl is akward)
reasoning: vamilorda
utterance: traworod (I made up tra ‘to’, with same stem as taraf, because by and to share semantic features)
uttering: traworda
language: denirod (den: ‘all’, deletion of w)
linguistics: vishednurod (stem from vishen: ‘knowledge’ + d-n)
tongue: uflorod
rhetoric: vumlorod
I made these words up simply as an example, nothing more. You don't have to use any of it.
For tongue I made up the stem f-l, ‘do’, fela ‘doing’ and z-l as a affix, from your glossary entry ziel, ‘goal/purpose’. Doing is atelic, that is, it is continuous and does not semantically result in a specific state, product etc. With these morphemes we can make a telic verb, making: zelfela. On the other hand f-l results in moving, ufula. From there ufel, ‘muscle’, and hence uflorod.
You could also consider vowels to have some semantics themselves: a appears in active verbs; e in passive verbs; u in outward movements (vumlorod is something you do in front of others, based upon reasoning, which is an internal process); o in ditransitive verbs. And so on.
Some semantical ideas:
- There are two types of we, namely the inclusive we (that includes the hearer to whom one is talking) and the exclusive we (that excludes the hearer) (same goes for the plural form). The distinction is made clear by a suffix. Since I here a lot about Amarrians as being zelots with brotherhoods and striving for devine enlightenment or whatever, I think both we-forms fit in really nice. If one says: 'We+SUF. go to war', this gives a whole new meaning to the sentence, because the speakers know that we includes God, for example.
- For instance, English 'to live' is basically intransitive (exception: to live a great life etc.), but a semantical shift towards the transitive spectrum in a religious community would be interesting: to live something, namely God, or heavenly rules, or whatever.
I think your verb conjugations are absolutely fine. Strong and clear conjugations, however, will usually result in pronounless constructions, simply because the verb ending indicates person, number, tense etc. perfectly.
O yes, typologically speaking an SOV-language tends to have postpositions, and to have auxiliary verbs placed behind the main verb. So: I table beautiful upon stand, meaning 'I stand upon the beautiful table'.
I don't have enough time to dwell upon this any further, due to examns and a Pre/Proto-Gallentean project. ;)
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As I read your work, it seems that you are going for a Semitic look, and for a more synthetic (lots of affixes in stead of loose words) structure. If you do this, you should look at
- The 'case hierarchy': the most common cases are the nominative (blank, zero) and accusative (object: 'he sees me'). Genetives, datives, locatives etc. are more secundary. This means that íf a language has a genetive, like yours, it will certainly have an accusative as well. The question now is: how many cases do you want?
I don't have enough time to dwell upon this any further, due to examns and a Pre/Proto-Gallentean project. ;)
About the time.... NO, NO, forget the gallente, help us :lol:. But really nice to see an expert on this field and how they work thru such a problem. If I may make a small suggestion? I would love to have the latin kasus (with the vokativ), as was that which teach me to use german "proper" (http://conjd.cactus2000.de/showverb.php?verb=lieben); as well as the strict us of the active and passive and the right subjunctive/konjunktiv (not just the so call "Juristen-Konjunktiv). Still can the konjugation of amare (http://www.haudenverres.de/latein/programm/grammatik/a_konjugation.html) :lol:.
So my suggestions would be:
-Us the latin cases/kasus (nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, ablative, vocative and locative case)
-An "easy" to use active and passive system, as well as an easy to use subjunctive/konjunktiv system. As I think many NNS english player would like to use it, or lets say would use it more heavily (my suggestion would be again something close to latin or a even more structure ones like arab etc...).
-Most important point: Help us, not those gallente :P. As the wiki article says: "Speakers of interstellar Gallente are either found in space, where it is the official language for Federation starship captains and traffic controllers, or in major cities with active spaceports and off-world trade. In both instances, these individuals will not be speaking interstellar Gallente as a first language, unless perhaps if they were born in a space habitat. The Gallente language as the cluster’s foremost second language and the language with the most speakers overall after Amarr means there are more speakers of interstellar Gallente outside the Federation than inside it."1 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Gallente_Federation#Language) As you can see, Gallente isnt even the first language in the Fed, so forget them and help us :D.
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Lol. Well, the reason why I started with Gallentian was because my character back then was Gallentean. ;) I don't have any experience with Amarr stuff. Well, Gallentean is, I presume, the first language of most people from Gallentia. And still it is apperently a huge lingua franca. To me, tat justifies the effort of creating the language.
Your native language is German, by the way?
As for your request: of course I'm willing to help with Amarr language, but I prefer a simple role on the side-line. Let's see how useful my earlier remarks turn out to be for the project first. ;)
I think your suggestions are fine, although personally I don't particularly like the conjunctive and cases (I always ignore them when I speak German). I'm not sure about the locative, though.
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Lol. Well, the reason why I started with Gallentian was because my character back then was Gallentean. ;) I don't have any experience with Amarr stuff. Well, Gallentean is, I presume, the first language of most people from Gallentia. And still it is apperently a huge lingua franca. To me, tat justifies the effort of creating the language.
Your native language is German, by the way?
As for your request: of course I'm willing to help with Amarr language, but I prefer a simple role on the side-line. Let's see how useful my earlier remarks turn out to be for the project first. ;)
I think your suggestions are fine, although personally I don't particularly like the conjunctive and cases (I always ignore them when I speak German). I'm not sure about the locative, though.
Yes, Im a native german speaker.... I had french just for two years (and during my school time... never used since); so most likely I will not be a great help on the gallente site. About the latin, I had it way longer and used a little during my university-time; so I could help there a little (if it is needed) and more important: "I could use then the Amarrad more easily" (and isnt it all about me? :P And making the world easier for me? :P).
As for the kasus, I always liked the latin cases; as I mention before: They are, if you can use them, easy to use. And if you cant use them.... stick to what/which you know (Julius Caesar). So I agree, a writer which uses less cases (like Julius Caesar) are easier to read and to understand; but sometimes you have a complex issue, which needs badly the full width of tools. As amarrian RP, is a "tool rich" amarrad very desirable. But just my 50 cents.
About: "I don't particularly like the conjunctive and cases (I always ignore them when I speak German)" Why? Dont do that :lol:.
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Adding a few words:
verdhart, adj. - veritable; real, true, actual, genuine, authentic: being in fact the thing named and not false, unreal, or imaginary. - insipired by indo-european root 'u̯erǝ-' (friendship, tustworthy, true), e.g. lat. 'verus', ger. 'wahr'.
destra, noun - the main/sword/right hand; the hand including the arm to the elbow, an ell, a term applied to hawks or falcons, the chief seat of precedency given to the most honoured guest, a prime minister (informal), power, strength,superiority, victory, advantage. - inspired by farsi "dast"and lat. "dexter".
rasaj, noun - skill; (practical) wisdom, cleverness, ability, perfection, access: the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance. - ispired by Farsi "rasāʼī".
destrasaj, noun - swordmanship; martial arts, fencing, swordplay, combat skill, art of fighting: art or skill of combat and self defense. - compound of destra and rasaj.
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First up, awesome - been trawling through this making use of it for future plottingz.
Second, I offer a new word:
Shardal, noun - gryphon, a mythical half-lion, half-eagle creature associated with divinity, power and being a guardian of both. Inspired by Persian 'شیر دال' (transliteration 'shar dal'), meaning the same.
There are actually quite a few Persian words or phrases for gryphon - when all you have is google translate, working out the subtleties implied by each is effectively impossible, so I went with the one that had the right sound to it.
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Just wanted to say I have started using this, as for similar reasons to first post I find Latin a bit meh.
If you are still working on it and want a hand I will happily lend one (and drag in a linguist friend, he owes me) as I would really like to see this fully expanded and expounded :D
Cheers regardless for all the awesome effort!
-A
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I'm unlikely to put any more significant effort into this, at least for the foreseeable future, and as I've always said I want this to be a community project rather than a one-man show I'd be more than happy if someone else wanted to keep working on it!
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Caul-Sensei !
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I'm unlikely to put any more significant effort into this, at least for the foreseeable future, and as I've always said I want this to be a community project rather than a one-man show I'd be more than happy if someone else wanted to keep working on it!
I might keep chipping away at it then, if that is fine with you of course, and see what I can add to all this awesome work! :D
-A
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The Amarr religion is an offshoot of something called the "Unified Catholic Church of Mankind". If "Catholic" means "Roman Catholic", which is what springs to mind because of the Catholic inspiration for Amarr art, then it makes sense that Latin would be the ancestral language of Amarrian. However, looking at the collection of Amarrian constellation and system names, the phonetic resemblance to Persian is uncanny.
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For your eyes only! (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarrian_language)
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I am not sure if this project is even alive anymore but for my RP character in eve I took what you had an added some more Arabic/Hebrew wording following the normal syntactic and pluralism. Here is what I would be introducing:
Pluralizing: Causes a word to end in 'o'
To : o
Break : Aikh
Broke : Aikhet
Breaking : Aikhit
Breaks : Aikho
Limit : Grenze
Limits : Grenzeo
Emarr granze e sama ejadlays, em aikhetes.
Emarr granze e ketteo ejaditlays, em aikhetsie.
A maelays grenzeo, A nur yamlik grenzeo o aikh.
TRANSLATED
My limit the sky was not, I broke it.
My limit the chains were not, I broke them.
I am without limits, I only have limits to break.
LIT TRANSLATED
My limit the sky was not, I broke through.
My limit the chains were not, I broke them.
I am without limits, I only have limits to break.
Complete View
My - limit - the - sky - was not, I - broke through
Emarr - grenze - e - sama - ejadlays, em - aikhettaraq
My - limit - the - chains - were not, I - broke them
Emarr - grenze - e - ketteo - ejaditlays, em - aikhletsie
(without)
I am - with not - limites -, I - only - have - limits - to - break
A - maelays - grenzeo -, A - nurr - yamlik - grenzeo - o - aikh
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pretty cool stuff here, a bit a colanging fan got the three books on colanging from zompist.
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Apologies for potential thread necromancy, but the link to the glossary isn't working for me. Google is telling me the file no longer exists... So does anyone have this backed up anywhere and would be willing to share it?
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Very sad this disappeared. I have used this resource for quite a few things :(
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I know it's just cheating, but I've resorted to just going Broken Latin for Amarrad. It's not exactly the most common thing to use, but it's well inside Miz's sphere of interests given her... well, chosen lifestyle and goals.
Besides, I find it amusing that a couple of her tattoos would most definitely raise some eyebrows among the learned.
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Broken Latin
Amarres eunt domus !
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Since I had needed it and noticed the link to the glossary no longer works, here is a copy of it that was posted to the official EVE forums awhile back.
https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/message/5642932/#post5642932
I have also used my vast mod powers to add that to the original post.
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Awesome, Sami, thanks!
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A couple new words to contribute! With SFRIM making our own alliance, we decided to come up with some Amarrad names for it, which required inventing a couple new words.
Harar: dark. The idea here is to use the h-r-r from herart (night) as a root for words relating to darkness.
Mikhim: candle. Working off of amkhim and khim, both words for light (with different connotations), I took m-kh-m to be the root for light, and worked from there. We didn't end up using this for the name, but I like it.