Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Dame Death on 17 Aug 2010, 04:12
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Right for a while now I've been considering writing more about Eliza's training.
But as most proberly know kameira PF is shit. First hurdle is these so called "Trails" would I be overstepping if I used SaS selection as a base?
ps: Meeting annother Kameira rper the other day gave me the poke i needed to start these again
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http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=08-12-08
I thought that was pretty clear right there. It's not SAS selection, but from birth. Also as a capsuleer, would there by any reason to still serve as a Kameira? Considering we can purchase them off market, maybe Dame now commands a group of them, especially as a former one, so they have their respect.
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http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=08-12-08
I thought that was pretty clear right there. It's not SAS selection, but from birth. Also as a capsuleer, would there by any reason to still serve as a Kameira? Considering we can purchase them off market, maybe Dame now commands a group of them, especially as a former one, so they have their respect.
She doesnt still serve as a kameira I'm writing the storys bout her past before she was a capsuleer.
And cant check due to firewall but if thats the chorn it mentions "Trail" twice both in junior and senior subakos (sp)
thats what i was refering to when i mentioned SAS selection as it doesnt give any clues as to what is involved.
And Eliza wouldnt have the respect of any serving Kameiras, she turned her back on her faith remember (though did take her a while)
And Miz eliza isnt the only ex kameira out there even though I do only know of one and hes been doing it a lot longer then me :P
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It's not SAS selection as those are for members of the military already serving. Kameiras are trained from birth, which is not practiced by the British special forces.
The beginning
Every maturing fetus of the breeding program is rigorously monitored, subject to a series of genetic tests to see if it is developing to the exacting standards of the Kameiras. If the specimen is found to be genetically unworthy – if it would be born short, weak, sickly or afflicted with any of a multitude of genetic abnormalities - then the pregnancy is terminated. Any surviving neonates are given over to a specialized care centre where Amarrian females take responsibility for their upbringing in supervised crèches until the age of six, whereupon the infant enters its first Subigo House, a place of training and education.
Junior Subigo
Here the subject begins a vigorous physical regime. The Amarrians have learned that this is the most effective time to begin adapting the Minmatar body for military duty. Increasing in pace and vigor as the body grows, the training regime pushes the child to an established limit that will not adversely affect its later growth. The youth is schooled in combat arts and forced to attend an extensive indoctrination program. This program forms the foundation of maintaining control over the Kameiras when they are fully fledged adults. They are institutionalized into the Amarrian faith - taught about the Amarr God and his love for them, their place in his creation and their duty to uphold his law for the good of all. For all intents and purposes, they are taught that they too are Chosen. Although this continues to be a hotly debated topic within certain circles of the Empire, time has proved it to be the most effective form of control.
Senior Subigo
Most survive the rigorous Junior Subigo and undertake the testing trials at the age of fourteen. If they survive this tortuous experience they are moved onto the Senior Subigo House, where they are divided into combat-sized groups. In teaching them to act as part of a greater whole, their instructors take their training to a whole new level: The young neophytes are schooled in a wide range of skills including strategy, tactics, survival, personal combat and the use of firearms, body armor as well as wide range of military equipment and vehicles. If they survive this intense period they then undertake the final and most testing trial. If this is passed, they are accepted as adepts; if they fail, they do not return.
That's some of it but I recommend waiting until you can access the chron via a different computer. It's very detailed, and a very good infodump
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Seri I know that chron off the top of my head but heres what I mean as you dont seem to be listening/reading.
they then undertake the final and most testing trial. If this is passed, they are accepted as adepts; if they fail, they do not return.
It was this I was going to use the last stage of SAS trails as a base for. As tbh I cant think of anything harder then those,.
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It can be a test if the brainwashing stuck or not.
If it didn't a killing machine of that caliber can't be allowed to be able to go free.
Therefore it will be terminated.
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It was this I was going to use the last stage of SAS trails as a base for. As tbh I cant think of anything harder then those,.
I doubt it would be SAS training. Consider the vast array of technology that is of course way ahead of our own. Melee weapons that are still probably used, hovercars, VTOL gunships and dropships. SAS aren't trained to pilot, for example, tanks and helicopters, but I imagine Kameiras could even pilot atmospheric fighters and the like.
SAS training would have nothing on the EVE special forces.
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It can be a test if the brainwashing stuck or not.
Technicly from what I gather it isnt brainwashing their rasied to belive that their chsoen as well. May be a test of thier faith yes.
but I imagine Kameiras could even pilot atmospheric fighters and the like.
Am glad someone else thinks this as its a little known fact of dames RP shes got her templer wings (not atmospheric I know)
SAS training would have nothing on the EVE special forces.
Its not the training per se I'm on about its the last phase of selection when their chucked into the woods for 5 days with almost nothing. But if you have a better base on what they would involve please say.
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Again, I'm not sure why SAS should be a reference point, considering you are referring to the Amarr Empire :P
Being chucked 5 days in the woods, though, I could easily picture being dumped on a remote, uninhabited world and having to survive x amount of time.
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[mod]Be constructive[/mod]
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Elementals. Just ditch the power armour and replace genetic engineering with selective breeding. (I.e. breeding stock is kept alive, unlike Clan warriors in Battletech whose genes might be passed on posthumously after they have confirmed their worth by dying with honour.) That should give some extra material (if you have access to Battletech books). Though of course, any bloodname things need to be removed, since Kameiras will not have a chance of becoming truly free. Though I would assume that any Kameira who survives their ops is made of the same stuff legends are, so if you see a Kameira Sergeant Major (Master Chief Petty Officer), chances are that he knows what he's doing. Ranks up to Staff Sergeant might be awarded based on training alone, but higher ranks would likely mean that the guy has survived an effective suicide. After all, when you can't afford to nuke the site from the orbit, you can still use Kameiras.
...and oh, you'd likely need to figure out a role for a female Kameira. Think about it, the future Kameira are examined for weaknesses since before they are born. Women generally do lack the physical strength of men. So unless they are going to serve the Amarr some other way (most obvious being, um, laying on their back, closing their eyes and thinking of the Empire - after all, no sense in letting good genes go to waste) I don't see much future for Kameira girls.
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I was about to make a longwinded post regarding this thread filed with advice on how,possibly, such a person would be raised and trained.
I then re-read the Chron and it holds all the information needed as an info dump.
That said the question stands:
What manner of trials is it they're going through ?
I believe that the instructors and training staff know everything except one thing: Has the indoctrination stuck ?
So the test would thus be physical only to exhaust the subject and put him in a vulnerable mental and physical state where you can then gauge wheter the instilled belief system has truly taken hold.
If one agrees with my hypothesis then the SAS comparison would be a faulty one as that is done to gauge physical and mental endurance and if the applicant (volunteers mind you) is a good enough soldier.
As stated the would be Kameiras skills as a soldier are already known and noted down,this goes for their physical and mental strength and endurance as well. Up to a point their belief system and trust in what has been indoctrinated has been tested and looked at.
But man is ever beset by doubt in what he's told,except if he's a hardcore fanatic. To make sure you make them vulnerable and see if they stick it out. You bind them further by forcing them to commit atrocities in the name of "X".
If they stick with the blief system even though all hope is lost and is turning to the belief system in order to explain why killing,raping and burning women and children is necessary.
Then you have your man/woman.
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I was about to make a longwinded post regarding this thread filed with advice on how,possibly, such a person would be raised and trained.
I then re-read the Chron and it holds all the information needed as an info dump.
That said the question stands:
What manner of trials is it they're going through ?
I believe that the instructors and training staff know everything except one thing: Has the indoctrination stuck ?
So the test would thus be physical only to exhaust the subject and put him in a vulnerable mental and physical state where you can then gauge wheter the instilled belief system has truly taken hold.
If one agrees with my hypothesis then the SAS comparison would be a faulty one as that is done to gauge physical and mental endurance and if the applicant (volunteers mind you) is a good enough soldier.
As stated the would be Kameiras skills as a soldier are already known and noted down,this goes for their physical and mental strength and endurance as well. Up to a point their belief system and trust in what has been indoctrinated has been tested and looked at.
But man is ever beset by doubt in what he's told,except if he's a hardcore fanatic. To make sure you make them vulnerable and see if they stick it out. You bind them further by forcing them to commit atrocities in the name of "X".
If they stick with the blief system even though all hope is lost and is turning to the belief system in order to explain why killing,raping and burning women and children is necessary.
Then you have your man/woman.
This, tbh.
Only alternative would be to create a soldier that has no way of even questioning one's actions or orders from superiors. To achieve that one will likely need a regime of brainwashing so intense that it never break, usually by enforcing it at all times. Something like what the Sansha's do with their true slaves.
I got the impression that the Empire wanted totally loyal, but thinking soldiers, not an army of will-less robots. The Khameira program is about as close you will get without actually lobotomizing your troops.
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...and oh, you'd likely need to figure out a role for a female Kameira. Think about it, the future Kameira are examined for weaknesses since before they are born. Women generally do lack the physical strength of men. So unless they are going to serve the Amarr some other way (most obvious being, um, laying on their back, closing their eyes and thinking of the Empire - after all, no sense in letting good genes go to waste) I don't see much future for Kameira girls.
I dunno. I think a Kamiera female might make a good intelligence gathering asset. Not domestically -- she'd probably stick out like a sore thumb if she were embedded among household or domestic security (e.g. a guard for the harem of a wealthy Ni-Kunni merchant) slaves.
I doubt many in the Federation or the Republic would bat an eye at ... oh ... a mixed-race woman recently released as part of the Empress' slave liberation program.
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I dunno. I think a Kamiera female might make a good intelligence gathering asset. Not domestically -- she'd probably stick out like a sore thumb if she were embedded among household or domestic security (e.g. a guard for the harem of a wealthy Ni-Kunni merchant) slaves.
I doubt many in the Federation or the Republic would bat an eye at ... oh ... a mixed-race woman recently released as part of the Empress' slave liberation program.
Not just that. As soldiers, there is very little difference between the performance ratio of male and female humans. I fail to see why the Empire, or any government for that matter, should ignore 50% of their possible recruitment pool because females are so-and-so less strong or durable etc. as males. It makes little sense - a far more likely scenario is that the Empire has one 'expected performance' bar for males and one for females, the one for woman a tad lower than men. This would value the men towards a total performance report that they expect from them, while still agreeing women are just as 'usefull' as men though a tad 'weaker'.
So, while they might train special ops member for different things depending on gender, as your general 'infantry fo the line' troops there is likely to be near zero difference between males and females. Unless the Khameiras has some kind of traditional reason to divide the genders, and to me atl that's unlikely based on the fact it is not depicted anywhere else in Empire PF that the Empire consider the separate sexes anything but equal. Unless, I missed something...
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Intelligence gathering, while I'd be rather fond to note that it'd be a natural role for the (Matari) Kameiras, is out. First, they're conditioned to think they're Chosen. They are likely religious. Teaching them to be Minmatar would be counterproductive. They might pass in a camp of recently freed slaves, but I'd assume there's a lot more effective ways to get informants in such places. Furthermore, Kameira troops - starting from the description of the in-game item - are kept in a tight leash. They don't act alone. Sure, they might go first as shock troops, but they'd be most likely followed by Amarr troops, and their officers are Amarr - a Kameira might, in rare cases, get to be a senior NCO, but warrant officers might be already pushing it, and all officer positions in Kameira units are filled with actual Chosen: Amarr.
A Kameira-like system might be for indoctrinating "spy slaves", but that's not Kameiras.
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Intelligence gathering, while I'd be rather fond to note that it'd be a natural role for the (Matari) Kameiras, is out. First, they're conditioned to think they're Chosen. They are likely religious. Teaching them to be Minmatar would be counterproductive. They might pass in a camp of recently freed slaves, but I'd assume there's a lot more effective ways to get informants in such places. Furthermore, Kameira troops - starting from the description of the in-game item - are kept in a tight leash. They don't act alone. Sure, they might go first as shock troops, but they'd be most likely followed by Amarr troops, and their officers are Amarr - a Kameira might, in rare cases, get to be a senior NCO, but warrant officers might be already pushing it, and all officer positions in Kameira units are filled with actual Chosen: Amarr.
A Kameira-like system might be for indoctrinating "spy slaves", but that's not Kameiras.
I concede the point. I'd glossed right over the unit-orientation of Kameira training (I blame a momentary fit of mistaking my own messed up shit for PF: I've done a fair bit of sandcastle building with Kameira-esque infilitration specialists/social engineers).
You're right. They wouldn't be lone operators. Thanks for the reminder.
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First, I will admit that I didn't read the whole thread.
However, in the case of Kameira's, I would stick to an old school French Foreign Legion / IDF model.
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First off i'll answer the female question.
On the chron there is a piture of a girl and it doesnt say anywhere that their all mail, Plus it does state they are enhanced so a kamirea female can probely kick the arse of most other males. (plus brutor)
As for the trails yeh it may be a test of weather their training stuck, as for what RL forces the Kamieras are most like after a agrument/decuision in ooc the other day I think the concesus was Waffen SS.
Alough the diffent race soilders fighting in a army thing did make me lean towards gurkas/jassinarys the fighting style would proberly be like the waffen SS plus they also tried the super soilder thing
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And of course, the fact that in EVE the genders are equivalent. In the mathematical sense. Though if thinking a moment, there's a load of technical stuff where it doesn't matter how strong you are (specially if the heavy duty loading etc. is done with MTAC assistance), and the higher tech, the more there's that kinds of stuff. Second-line corps. Some tank / armoured reconnaissance stuff. Signaling. For first-line stuff, I'd assume that things would depend a lot on culture and testing involved, because even if the Kameira women are stronger than most men, Kameira men are going to be stronger and therefore rank higher in physical tests - as far as I am aware, women are technically better in only one thing, swimming (since the body fat is divided more evenly, women float in a better pose), though even there, men are just stronger.
Amarr are rather equal, so likely there's no need to do segregation by gender or stuff (no separate rooms/barracks etc.), and the conditioning of the troops as well as likely having them grown up together solves the problem of romances coming into the way of command chains. The human psyche has a mechanism to prevent incest - allegedly, the Israeli kibbutzes have problems with marital arts (not a typo) assumed to come from growing all the kids together, so they mentally thinks of each others as "close family".
And of course, if the women in question are not required for procreation, I'd assume that it'd be within possibilities of the tech for them all to have hormonal control implants. Boost testosterone levels and lower estrogen levels, and the women will perform equally well as men (because they basically are men). Women do produce testosterone (though not as much as men), the effect is blocked by estrogen. (Most notable in old women whose body no longer produces estrogen - they start to grow a beard.) To be quite cold, it is not like first line Kameira troops are going to live long enough to be of much use at having children. And wouldn't afford to have the shock troopers be effectively off-duty for several months even in the case they're not needed for "live" missions.
There is, of course, a way to use the genes of the successful frontline troopers, as well. If the hormonal manipulation starts late enough, the eggs could likely be harvested, and if needed for their genes, fertilized in vitro and placed to some other slave. Kameira might get biologically mature early. And the human strength peak appears relatively late, roughly 25 - 30 for modern humans. If the harvesting is done early enough (teen donor), there'd be ten years of time to mess with male hormones before the strength maximum.
...and yes, if the above is even close, well, previously hadn't really thought how sick the Amarr human endurance program could be.
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Kameira's probably don't live to 25 tbh as their put into service at 19 :P
I've always had it dame was sterilised tho, and for those that dont know this isnt something ive ust started saying shes had this story since i started rping ust only now trying to write backstory about it.
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I'm sorry dame, usually I stay away from you for a reason, but... seriously? :D
What you want is the guy I have as my avatar, 2.5m tall genengineered superhuman - and thats not really eve - neither is baroque armor and .20cal bore full auto rpg guns.
It would be nice if people could just settle on playing EVE instead of dragging anything from "insert anime of choice here" to 40k.
It's alright, we all know the apeal of above mentioned Smurfs and 40km long ships with cyclonic torpedoes and that - but its got its place, just like 'immortal' space captains. :)
Edit: Oh, and to be constructive, why would you use perfectly good, genetically suited women who can be used for breeding, for combat - after all they can give birth to a perfectly new generation of super soldiers.
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Noone questioned it when I started using it and tbh why not :P
EDIT: and for those that think i did just start this http://www.eve-search.com/thread/948610/page/1#13
Man i feel old going though that
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I tend to think the trials are intended to test how well the Kameiras candidate took in the mental and religious indoctrination (Junior Subiago) and later how well the candidate took in the training necessary to become a fully fledged Kameiras (Senior Subiago).
The Junior Subiago trial might be a mental, religious and physical stress test to determine if the teen is viable stock to undergo combat training to become a Kameiras. The trial might include:
- Simulated torture to determine the mental and psychological limits of a candidate. Methods might include things like sleep deprivation, stress positions, electrocution, deprivation of food/water, being put in a hole/cage for a few days, being put in a hole/cage whilst slaver hounds sit outside, varied methods of pain inducement, mock executions and other fun stuff intended to push a candidate to the mental limits.
- As above, candidates might intentionally be broken to further psychological/religious indoctrination: "God is your only salvation. Embrace God so he may deliver you from pain."
- Induce increased levels of stress in the candidate in order to gauge their ability to resist and control it for future training. Induced stress might be environmental (such as throwing them into the wild to do escape and evasion whilst being chased by Slaver Hounds) and mental (as above).
- Variety of physical testing intended to determine suitability for future training.
Anyway, the Junior Subiago appears to me to be where a candidate is initially moulded to undertake the actual Kameiras 'combat course' so the testing is there to determine if the candidate is suitable to undergo that training. The combat training is no doubt exhaustive and both physically and mentally demanding so the Amarr handlers would want to ensure that they don't waste time trying to conduct such with inferior stock. Hence, the 'trial'.
The trial is probably only the final stress test for a candidate and inferior or failed candidates are weeded out during the course of a child's life and the Junior Subiago prior to the trial.
The final test of the Senior Subiago would be to me, a series of live-fire exercises intended to determine a Kameiras candidate ability in actual combat and suitability to join a Kameiras unit. So anything and everything small unit tactics, atmospheric drops, MTAC/Vehicle operation, urban combat, force recon, surveillance and how to kill your fellow man armed only with a plastic spoon. Once passing all that and deemed fit they're slotted into a Kameiras unit.
However, I think candidates are watched over very carefully by their Amarrian handlers during the entirety of the selection process and undesirables are selectively weeded out and removed. The trials being more of a final test to determine desired factors and traits in a candidate.
As for women being Kameiras, there's nothing to say they're not in it. In fact, as part of any Kameiras breeding program they would be essential. In much the same way as one breeds dogs and selects certain genetic stock to increase desired traits over generations the Amarr might do the same with the Kameiras.
Removal of the uterus and associated reproductive organs in female candidates would allow for increased uptake of relevant testosterone treatments. Would probably occur after the first trial as they would be deemed of 'good stock' and they would have the highest number of eggs available for harvesting and fertilization as they would have just hit puberty.
Hmm, perhaps all Kameiras both male and female are tagged as part of the eugenics program to ensure that positive traits such as physical endurance, loyalty, tenacity, adaptability and aggression are increased generation by generation. As I said, it's much like breeding dogs at the end of the day for the Amarr.
Loyal dogs that will gladly die in the name of God.
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http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=08-12-08
The one on the left in the picture looks pretty damn female. Other than that, the article is gender neutral. Arguments over females not being able to be Kameiras is therefore moot unless you find another article that says otherwise. Plus when we made our characters, EVE said chicks can do everything dudes can do, they just might be treated by other capsuleers differently :P
Kazzzi was once a commander of Kameiras, perhaps he knew Dame's mother. ;)
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Kazzzi was once a commander of Kameiras, perhaps he knew Dame's mother
Bloody fithly mind :P Well even if he did Eliza didnt ;P
Edit: If he did plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz tell me it wasnt 22years and 9monthsish ago?
This brings me to annother part of my rp and this bit im unsure on and thats Alice
whos dames sister would the females that bred the Kameias be in a postion to have "slave children" smuggled back to the republic?