Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Jikahr on 03 Nov 2014, 22:39
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I recall there was a similar thread regarding the Caldari state and sexuality. Apparently homosexuality is taboo in the Caldari Navy, which caused at least one capsuleer to defect and to turn Pirate.
I am speculating about how much is 'too much' for EVE.
For example, Odelya starred in a pornographic movie and displays intercepted letters about having lesbian affairs. That seems acceptable, content wise.
However, the image of a scantily clad holographic dancer was removed from the in game Gallente (?) pleasure centres. Presumably that was something that had to be done in order to market the game towards 13-18 year olds.
Sandbox yes, 'adult' content no.
I am interested to know about white slavery, aka sexual slavery, and it's place in EVE.
Slavery is an integral part of the Amarrian religion. Presumably this would include sexual slavery as well. True, the religious aspect of the Amarrians might (and most likely would) override and condemn this. However, we still don't have any demonstrable evidence from the Prime fiction that recreational sex was either permitted or scorned by the Amarrian Orthodox Church.
I can understand how Blood Raiders, Angels and other outlaw factions would be involved with something as nasty as this, but what about Orthodox Amarrians, or even Hereto-orthodox sects? We know that slaves can only be owned by Holders, and presumably the Holders are a law unto themselves...at least as we can see in the case of Articio Kor-Azor. Even in this case however, the Speakers of Truth can still hold the mighty holders to account.
What about the instance of an Amarrian traveling military brothel made up of slaves? History provides us with many examples, such as the Korean comfort women. Is it something that is too taboo to even be discussed in the Intergalactic Summit?
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Relations with slaves, and possibly/probably Minmatar in general and other less-respected bloodlines, is considered poor form, according to Khumaak (Chronicle) (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/khuumak/).
"Involuntary, [Idonis Ardishapur's] mind drifted to the little hiding place he had down in the city, to the lithe and winsome creature he whispered words of passion and affection to during lovemaking. His family and friends would be appalled if they knew of his dark-skinned Starkmanir girl, with her almond eyes and her smile that was coy and bold at the same time."
I'd expect it to be something that is seen as publically improper and morally wrong, but that is done quite frequently by nobility across the Empire regardless and simply swept under the rug. Probably an open secret within less conservative families and especially in the Kingdom.
It can be said that legally it would depend on the Holder of the territory. The Holder would probably not care unless exposure risked the Family's position in Holder politics. I don't see there being any Empire-wide ruling on the matter (though we do know from the Government of the Amarr Empire article however that 'egregious mistreatment of slaves' is a religious crime, I don't think relations with slaves would considered falling under that, as the existence of the HEP programs and breeding colonies would be much, much worse and as I understand it those are not illegal).
Regarding recreational sex, Aritcio did quite a lot of it in his various hedonist ventures and was viewed poorly. However there was no legal action and one would expect the biggest issue was how public his activities were. Karsoth was additionally very hedonistic, which probably contributed to his disciplining and execution being done in private as it would have been shameful for the Empire to reveal that things like that were going on by members of its administration. We know, from the Exotic Dancers item, that public indecency is a very big issue for the Empire.
Additional note on this topic: x-rated holoreels are banned in the Empire and Kingdom, according to the in-game item. So pornography is not approved of. Probably a lot of bootlegging and under-the-table stuff going on though.
Regarding comfort women, I don't think this would be an official thing but probably existing in some level of unofficial capacity in some cases.
Basically, as with many things in the Empire, there's probably a common tendency towards deviancy and indecency behind closed doors due to heavy represession in public. The moment those activities become public is the moment they become a major issue.
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I think that the Khumaak chronicle likely speaks primarily to Ardishapur views.
And it seems entirely possible to me that the problem is more that Idonis seems to be in love rather than the sex.
But I agree that the "public" aspect is key. Recreational sex isn't bad, publicly known of recreational sex is bad. But I think that applies to publicly known recreation... period.
We also only have evidence for upper holders, which means it is hard to talk lower classes. It could equally be that someone like Ardishapur is so powerful that there is an idea that he shouldn't *need* to have sex with slaves.
I see Amarrians, both holders and overseer types, as likely to be having rather gross rapey relations with their slaves on a quite common basis. But I would also say that they are unlikely to ever talk about those relationships.
And I don't think that the white slavery discussion is particularly useful. It is too modern a paradigm. Roman slave practices always strike me as the closest clear model for Amarrian ones.
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However, the image of a scantily clad holographic dancer was removed from the in game Gallente (?) pleasure centres. Presumably that was something that had to be done in order to market the game towards 13-18 year olds.
There's a number of fake images claiming that.
It was only ever a hologram of the Quafe girl.
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Also, sexual slavery exists. IN the Gallente federation, it's mentioned on the Evelopedia.
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And I don't think that the white slavery discussion is particularly useful. It is too modern a paradigm. Roman slave practices always strike me as the closest clear model for Amarrian ones.
I think that Roman slave practices are a better model for Amarrian ones as well.
With that said, the Romans had pimps that owned slaves that acted as streetwalkers. I suppose that's not too much different than what we have today.
There is a controversial story in the Bible about Jesus giving his blessing to a Roman soldier and his slave boy. Obviously, this is a homosexual non-consensual relationship between Master and slave. (However, it is clear that the owner loves and cares for his slave boy.) It seems that in the Roman Army, wives were forbidden, but slaves were allowed. The slaves did everything a wife would do, such as cooking, cleaning, mending. A homosexual relationship seems practical in this instance, since newborn infants don't belong on a military campaign.
Which brings us to the problem of Masters making slaves pregnant.
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I would expect that slave children with noble parentage would almost always be left as slaves. While there are likely exceptions, I see these exceptions as something that would be fuddled in the paperwork to avoid public revelation. Some might be given preferential treatment and possibly released, but probably not considered part of the family in most cases.
As seen with those of Udorian heritage, having non-True Amarr heritage (or Khanid heritage, where it is viewed in similar loftiness) would be seen, at least by conservatives, as a stain on the family's lineage. By leaving the child as a slave, and thus part of the slave's lineage, the family avoids that messy affair getting added to the family line.
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Here is a separate, yet related question.
I am toying with the idea of making one of my female characters into a Nun affiliated with the Sisters of EVE, who is also clandestinely running a brothel. Pictures of Nuns wearing sexy clothes, and the idea of slutty Nuns are pretty amusing to me.
Corporate titles and characters would be tongue in cheek puns and play on words. For example, the Monk in charge of making french fried foods would be the 'Chip Monk'. His obese but philosophical assistant would be the 'Deep fat fryer'.
I understand that EVE is a big enough sandbox that some people veer off in completely different roleplay directions, such as playing a Vulcan or a Jedi or whatever. However, I personally don't want to be in a position where I am in a logical conflict with the Prime Fiction.
Is it even possible to have an SOE affiliated corporation that is secretly (yet openly) a brothel, as portrayed in stories such as 'Juliette' by the Marquis de Sade?
If my character already has a billion ISK bounty, is that something that would escape the notice of the Mother Superior of the SOE?
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that genre is apparently called "nunsploitation".
depending on who you ask, some characters would just say "I knew it!", given that there's no clothing evident on the individual in this picture: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/File:Sisters.jpg
lol.
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And I don't think that the white slavery discussion is particularly useful. It is too modern a paradigm. Roman slave practices always strike me as the closest clear model for Amarrian ones.
The PF seems to dither back and fourth on whether slavery in the Empire more closely resembles Roman stuff or 1800s chattel slavery, in my experience. While it's more styled that way in the surface (Slavery as a form of criminal punishment, annexing new territories for stock, etc) Roman slaves, especially post-republic, had a surprising amount of rights - They were protected under the law from murder and serious assault, had the right to their own wealth (to an extent) and to to eventually buy their freedom, and even to go to court to protest against their masters if they felt they were being mistreated. Later on, their owners were not even permitted to imprison them privately, and many punishments were completely banned.
Amarrian slavery doesn't really have any of that - Most of the PF describes Holders as functionally being able to do whatever they want, and control every aspect of their slaves lives. And of course there's a very strong racial overtone to it all as well as a cultural one concerning the "it is their rightful place" justification, something that the romans never had at all.
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some slaves are also very highly educated. Hedion University has indentured professors, for example.
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Here is a separate, yet related question.
I am toying with the idea of making one of my female characters into a Nun affiliated with the Sisters of EVE, who is also clandestinely running a brothel. Pictures of Nuns wearing sexy clothes, and the idea of slutty Nuns are pretty amusing to me.
Corporate titles and characters would be tongue in cheek puns and play on words. For example, the Monk in charge of making french fried foods would be the 'Chip Monk'. His obese but philosophical assistant would be the 'Deep fat fryer'.
I understand that EVE is a big enough sandbox that some people veer off in completely different roleplay directions, such as playing a Vulcan or a Jedi or whatever. However, I personally don't want to be in a position where I am in a logical conflict with the Prime Fiction.
Is it even possible to have an SOE affiliated corporation that is secretly (yet openly) a brothel, as portrayed in stories such as 'Juliette' by the Marquis de Sade?
If my character already has a billion ISK bounty, is that something that would escape the notice of the Mother Superior of the SOE?
Considering how dirty the Sisters actually are, I wouldn't put it past them at all tbh. They have their hands in a lot of very clandestine and outright illegal stuff. It's just all painted over with the legitimate and respected humanitarian front.
I think the key thing to make it work would be an ultimate, noble goal. The Sisters do dirty things, but it's usually always in pursuit of something grander. If they were to have a clandestine brothel that brothel would be about something much, much more important, rather than simply being a money-making scheme.
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And I don't think that the white slavery discussion is particularly useful. It is too modern a paradigm. Roman slave practices always strike me as the closest clear model for Amarrian ones.
The PF seems to dither back and fourth on whether slavery in the Empire more closely resembles Roman stuff or 1800s chattel slavery, in my experience. While it's more styled that way in the surface (Slavery as a form of criminal punishment, annexing new territories for stock, etc) Roman slaves, especially post-republic, had a surprising amount of rights - They were protected under the law from murder and serious assault, had the right to their own wealth (to an extent) and to to eventually buy their freedom, and even to go to court to protest against their masters if they felt they were being mistreated. Later on, their owners were not even permitted to imprison them privately, and many punishments were completely banned.
Amarrian slavery doesn't really have any of that - Most of the PF describes Holders as functionally being able to do whatever they want, and control every aspect of their slaves lives. And of course there's a very strong racial overtone to it all as well as a cultural one concerning the "it is their rightful place" justification, something that the romans never had at all.
Slaves are described as having some freedoms, the right to request positions and education provided that request fits into the Holder's needs. They have the opportunity for getting high education, and are given breaks, good healthcare, and even vacation time with some level of freedom of movement (in Source, the Minmatar story describes mine slaves being given extra vitoc supplies during vacation periods so that they could travel to town). They also have some monetary freedoms. In Chained to the Sky, the slaves were freely capable of ordering for themselves food and beverages from a local bar. I see it likely that while slaves might not make 'real' money, they are given some form of stipend that they can use on common supplies and goods. Slaves do afterall make up about 50% of the Empire population, and ergo would need some capacity for self-sufficiency, with strict boundaries of course. Slave families likely shop at the same stores as commoners, with restrictions on what can be purchased based on their permissions. This has the side benefit of making the taking away of those permissions and benefits a method of slave control. We do know that they have their own homes within the slave districts, they are not kept in slave pens or anything. Though obviously there are always outliers. Slave colonies, breeding colonies, these things give slaves a lot less freedoms, of course.
Really though, the class of slave is vastly important to determining what level of freedoms and rights they possess. There's no one catchall definition of slave life.
Additionally, as I said above, Government of the Amarr Empire does describe that damaging someone else's property (which slaves are considered as) and egregious mistreatment of slaves are straight up religious law (IE, they're forbidden by Scripture). So slaves do have some rights that they can appeal to their owners or the Theology Council, though by merit of their upbringing they probably rarely make any attempt at appealing to these rights, if they are even aware of them in the first place.
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And I don't think that the white slavery discussion is particularly useful. It is too modern a paradigm. Roman slave practices always strike me as the closest clear model for Amarrian ones.
The PF seems to dither back and fourth on whether slavery in the Empire more closely resembles Roman stuff or 1800s chattel slavery, in my experience. While it's more styled that way in the surface (Slavery as a form of criminal punishment, annexing new territories for stock, etc) Roman slaves, especially post-republic, had a surprising amount of rights - They were protected under the law from murder and serious assault, had the right to their own wealth (to an extent) and to to eventually buy their freedom, and even to go to court to protest against their masters if they felt they were being mistreated. Later on, their owners were not even permitted to imprison them privately, and many punishments were completely banned.
Amarrian slavery doesn't really have any of that - Most of the PF describes Holders as functionally being able to do whatever they want, and control every aspect of their slaves lives. And of course there's a very strong racial overtone to it all as well as a cultural one concerning the "it is their rightful place" justification, something that the romans never had at all.
Well, I think like much of EVE, it's quite open to interpretation. I tend to think of Roman slavery as 'institutionalized', progressing over a long period of time. It would also be essential to award the slaves with some rights, since the danger of slave revolts was very real and ever present. This was what happened in the Star Trek episode where they had a 20th century Roman empire. Slaves had labor unions, health care, dental plans and so forth.
There were periods in the Roman empire when slaves were so cheap that their owners simply didn't feed them. It was more 'cost effective' to simply work them and starve them to death. Slaves that worked in the mines, or on the farmer's fields were still treated quite harshly.
I think a lot of people also associate EVE slavery with Antediluvian slavery in the United States as well. The game developers certainly did a lot to contribute to that, by making all of the Minmatar dark skinned, and all the Amarrians as pale skinned. Apparently the idea behind the Amarr and Minmatar enslavement (as well as the religious angle) came from Columbus and his enslavement and extermination of the Arawak people.
Antediluvian was most certainly harsh and brutal, with Africans being kidnapped (as the Minmatar were) and forced into mainly agrarian labor. Like Rome, slave revolt was also a constant concern, which meant that the Americans had to maintain a Spartan like society with well armed men to quickly suppress any slave revolts.
I should mention though, that Africans weren't the only slaves in Georgian America. Irish were transported as indentured servants, debt slaves that were considered as property until they were too old to be useful anymore. The Irish were easier to control, since they had a debt to pay off. The Africans would always be slaves in the southern states merely because of their skin color.
In EVE terms, the Irish might be comparable to the Ni-Kunni. They were slaves that became fully integrated with the dominant culture.
The Amarrian empire spans thousands of planets, and is divided between holders (the only legal slave owners) with 'patchwork' territories under their control. A slave in the Kor-Azor region may have a very different life than a slave in the Ardishapur holdings, based largely upon the whims of the holders.
Also, I think that urban slaves would be treated better than rural slaves, skilled slaves would have negotiating power, 'pet' slaves would be treated as well as a domestic dog or cat, unruly and rebellious slaves would be consigned to miserable, hazardous work, and so on.
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However, the image of a scantily clad holographic dancer was removed from the in game Gallente (?) pleasure centres. Presumably that was something that had to be done in order to market the game towards 13-18 year olds.
Sandbox yes, 'adult' content no.
I'll just step in and address this real fast: To my knowledge, the removal of the Gallente Pleasure Hub station interior had absolutely zero to do with the quafe girl, and in fact was simply due to something in the shaders not agreeing at all with the Trinity graphics engine.
That said, several somewhat raunchier items have had their descriptions altered somewhat (for instance, the "Pillaging 101" item, which used to read "Contains detailed instructions on what to pillage and what to rape; mixups are so awkward").
Getting on to the main topic, one of the interesting things that gets overlooked a lot is that the first Amarr Emperor, Amash-Akura, outright forbid the rape of captured enemies. While it's not clear if this is directly transmitted as solid law up the current day, I think it is a safe bet that - especially in a society such as Amarr where figures such as Amash-Akura are revered religiously - the principles of such a ruling would not have been forgotten. I suspect it's likely that rape of prisoners and slaves, including coercion from a higher authority, is viewed very, very dimly in the Empire.
Amarrian slavery doesn't really have any of that - Most of the PF describes Holders as functionally being able to do whatever they want, and control every aspect of their slaves lives.
This brings me to my next point: While, by law, there may be little in the way of absolute protection for slaves in the Empire, there is another (perhaps even stronger) force that steps in instead: Social pressure.
Amarr slavery has the additional dynamic of slavery being intended as a tool to teach and convert; none of the examples mentioned here in the thread include any similar mandate or drive to use slavery to produce a productive, loyal subject.
While many Holders view their slaves solely as a source of free labor, a Holder who never frees his slaves and mistreats them will be viewed negatively by his fellows and the religious authorities.
Neither did 1800s antebellum or Roman slavery had to contend with the possibility of recording devices, long-range communications, etc. Especially considering the way Amarr politics are often described as a cutthroat mess of commoners and Holders alike competing to find any means to climb over their opponents, using slaves for sexual pleasure would be a very risky business indeed.
That's not to say it doesn't happen, of course - I'm quite sure it does. However, I disagree with the presumption that it is something every slave will experience and every slaveholder or overseer will engage in.
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Here is a separate, yet related question.
I am toying with the idea of making one of my female characters into a Nun affiliated with the Sisters of EVE, who is also clandestinely running a brothel. Pictures of Nuns wearing sexy clothes, and the idea of slutty Nuns are pretty amusing to me.
Corporate titles and characters would be tongue in cheek puns and play on words. For example, the Monk in charge of making french fried foods would be the 'Chip Monk'. His obese but philosophical assistant would be the 'Deep fat fryer'.
I understand that EVE is a big enough sandbox that some people veer off in completely different roleplay directions, such as playing a Vulcan or a Jedi or whatever. However, I personally don't want to be in a position where I am in a logical conflict with the Prime Fiction.
Is it even possible to have an SOE affiliated corporation that is secretly (yet openly) a brothel, as portrayed in stories such as 'Juliette' by the Marquis de Sade?
If my character already has a billion ISK bounty, is that something that would escape the notice of the Mother Superior of the SOE?
Considering how dirty the Sisters actually are, I wouldn't put it past them at all tbh. They have their hands in a lot of very clandestine and outright illegal stuff. It's just all painted over with the legitimate and respected humanitarian front.
I think the key thing to make it work would be an ultimate, noble goal. The Sisters do dirty things, but it's usually always in pursuit of something grander. If they were to have a clandestine brothel that brothel would be about something much, much more important, rather than simply being a money-making scheme.
Hmm, that's very interesting. Perhaps rehousing orphaned drones or something? IDK.
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Here is a separate, yet related question.
I am toying with the idea of making one of my female characters into a Nun affiliated with the Sisters of EVE, who is also clandestinely running a brothel. Pictures of Nuns wearing sexy clothes, and the idea of slutty Nuns are pretty amusing to me.
Corporate titles and characters would be tongue in cheek puns and play on words. For example, the Monk in charge of making french fried foods would be the 'Chip Monk'. His obese but philosophical assistant would be the 'Deep fat fryer'.
I understand that EVE is a big enough sandbox that some people veer off in completely different roleplay directions, such as playing a Vulcan or a Jedi or whatever. However, I personally don't want to be in a position where I am in a logical conflict with the Prime Fiction.
Is it even possible to have an SOE affiliated corporation that is secretly (yet openly) a brothel, as portrayed in stories such as 'Juliette' by the Marquis de Sade?
If my character already has a billion ISK bounty, is that something that would escape the notice of the Mother Superior of the SOE?
Considering how dirty the Sisters actually are, I wouldn't put it past them at all tbh. They have their hands in a lot of very clandestine and outright illegal stuff. It's just all painted over with the legitimate and respected humanitarian front.
I think the key thing to make it work would be an ultimate, noble goal. The Sisters do dirty things, but it's usually always in pursuit of something grander. If they were to have a clandestine brothel that brothel would be about something much, much more important, rather than simply being a money-making scheme.
Hmm, that's very interesting. Perhaps rehousing orphaned drones or something? IDK.
And that is how you solve the rogue drone problem! Drones go rogue because of dysfunctional relationship with their users! Abandoned drones are clearly victims of such dysfunctional relationship! Rogue drones are victims! We must save the rogue drones and house them and relocate them into loving drone bays!
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I occasionally make four of my flight kill the fifth. As a warning.
Also, breeding facilities. That these exist sort of kills any notion of benevolent slave holding.
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However, the image of a scantily clad holographic dancer was removed from the in game Gallente (?) pleasure centres. Presumably that was something that had to be done in order to market the game towards 13-18 year olds.
Sandbox yes, 'adult' content no.
I'll just step in and address this real fast: To my knowledge, the removal of the Gallente Pleasure Hub station interior had absolutely zero to do with the quafe girl, and in fact was simply due to something in the shaders not agreeing at all with the Trinity graphics engine.
That said, several somewhat raunchier items have had their descriptions altered somewhat (for instance, the "Pillaging 101" item, which used to read "Contains detailed instructions on what to pillage and what to rape; mixups are so awkward").
Getting on to the main topic, one of the interesting things that gets overlooked a lot is that the first Amarr Emperor, Amash-Akura, outright forbid the rape of captured enemies. While it's not clear if this is directly transmitted as solid law up the current day, I think it is a safe bet that - especially in a society such as Amarr where figures such as Amash-Akura are revered religiously - the principles of such a ruling would not have been forgotten. I suspect it's likely that rape of prisoners and slaves, including coercion from a higher authority, is viewed very, very dimly in the Empire.
Amarrian slavery doesn't really have any of that - Most of the PF describes Holders as functionally being able to do whatever they want, and control every aspect of their slaves lives.
This brings me to my next point: While, by law, there may be little in the way of absolute protection for slaves in the Empire, there is another (perhaps even stronger) force that steps in instead: Social pressure.
Amarr slavery has the additional dynamic of slavery being intended as a tool to teach and convert; none of the examples mentioned here in the thread include any similar mandate or drive to use slavery to produce a productive, loyal subject.
While many Holders view their slaves solely as a source of free labor, a Holder who never frees his slaves and mistreats them will be viewed negatively by his fellows and the religious authorities.
Neither did 1800s antebellum or Roman slavery had to contend with the possibility of recording devices, long-range communications, etc. Especially considering the way Amarr politics are often described as a cutthroat mess of commoners and Holders alike competing to find any means to climb over their opponents, using slaves for sexual pleasure would be a very risky business indeed.
That's not to say it doesn't happen, of course - I'm quite sure it does. However, I disagree with the presumption that it is something every slave will experience and every slaveholder or overseer will engage in.
Thus, slave brothels would be well hidden indeed. Perhaps something only the Blood Raiders would be involved in?
Also, the only people legally allowed to own slaves...would already own them. No need to buy the milk when you have the whole cow. Ariticio and Karsoth would have certainly used slaves for sexual purposes, although they are prime examples of villains who had to be cast down.
In the example of Jesus Christ blessing the Roman soldier and his slave boy, we learn that it was common practice for Roman soldiers (possibly Officers) to bring a personal slave with them into the field. The Biblical example makes it clear that the Roman cares very deeply for his slave. I imagine this might be the case in the Amarrian Navy as well.
In the modern day United States, a military Officer can be assigned as a 'batman' to a higher ranking Officer, not as a slave but to act as a personal servant. 'Orderly' or 'squire' are also terms that would apply.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28military%29
I can certainly see this happening in the Amarrian Navy. An Officer (Holder) would take his favorite slave with him into the field, who would act as scout, bodyguard, etc. Such a slave would be a loyal friend and devoted servant to the Amarrian, such as a 'Man Friday'. Sexual relations between Master and slave would certainly be possible, and arguably even 'voluntary', since compliance and seduction would certainly be a fast track to becoming Master's favorite.
I am wondering now if a male Amarrian Officer choosing to bring a female servant with him on duty would be frowned upon. Sexual activity between the two of them would certainly be implied. However, does that mean that a male Officer with a male slave would be above suspicion?
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I occasionally make four of my flight kill the fifth. As a warning.
Lol.
Also, breeding facilities. That these exist sort of kills any notion of benevolent slave holding.
It certainly kills any notion of the owner of said facility being benevolent, and is a very negative taint on the entire institution for sure. Though of course not every Holder supports them. I'd say probably very few do, but there's little drive within the society to change it because slaves aren't really seen as that important and it's a rather unsavory thing to talk about (as mentioned previously about public decency). So the status quo gets maintained.
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Y'all motherfuckers need space William Wilberforce.
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I occasionally make four of my flight kill the fifth. As a warning.
Also, breeding facilities. That these exist sort of kills any notion of benevolent slave holding.
Breeding facilities =/= Slave brothels though.
In an earlier post, I referred to pregnancy as being one of the 'practical' problems of having sex with slaves.
Samira pointed out that new, paler looking half-Amarrian (or Khanid) children would still be considered as slaves. I would contend that it would still cause societal problems, martial problems, and so on. Wouldn't the wife start noticing that the slaves were looking more and more like her husband?
In the Antediluvian system, there were slave brothels staffed by what were called 'fancy girls'. These were slaves of mixed blood, such as 'quatroons' (1/4 black), 'octoons' (1/8th black) and so on. While the owner was no doubt impregnating the slaves himself, and pimping off his own children, would this be the same thing as a slave breeding facility?
In the EVE universe, it is scientifically possible to artificially inseminate restrained female slaves to give birth to children without the need for sex. If one takes race and eugenics into consideration, as the Amarrians would have during the Human Endurance Program, this would be similar to the artificial insemination of a mare horse from a prize winning stallion.
Also, it would be possible and perhaps even preferable to give a female slave some kind of birth control.
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I occasionally make four of my flight kill the fifth. As a warning.
Also, breeding facilities. That these exist sort of kills any notion of benevolent slave holding.
Breeding facilities =/= Slave brothels though.
In an earlier post, I referred to pregnancy as being one of the 'practical' problems of having sex with slaves.
Samira pointed out that new, paler looking half-Amarrian (or Khanid) children would still be considered as slaves. I would contend that it would still cause societal problems, martial problems, and so on. Wouldn't the wife start noticing that the slaves were looking more and more like her husband?
Please don't put words in my mouth. I said nothing about skin color. The word I used was heritage. Lineage. It's in the genetics. The Book of Records. This is something that goes much further than a single generation's affairs. No one wants to have 'slave' on the family tree, Matari or otherwise. Consider the Black family tree in Harry Potter, where they'd scorch out the people who they thought had brought shame to the family. Having a slave or other lesser heritage in the lineage would bring shame to the family. In some cases this is racial (True Amarr are superior, Khanid are close, everything else less so), but also social class. Lesser holders are inferior, commoners are inferior, slaves are especially inferior. You don't want any of those on the tree, noted down for eternity in the Book of Records. Marrying 'down', breeding 'down' would be a negative mark for the family.
It's a feudal society, and so lineage is superior to all other considerations.
But anyway, I would expect it would cause some problems if not covered up, yes. As said before, Amarr society probably has a lot of this kind of deviancy going on, but they take pains to sweep it under the rug. But the problems would be equal whether it's a Minmatar commoner or a True Amarr slave. Both would cause problems.
Also, it would be possible and perhaps even preferable to give a female slave some kind of birth control.
Gaven and I have discussed this before, and thought that it would probably be more common that slaves would be physically prevented from breeding "independently" and that they either would require permission from their Holders (in the case of higher class, freer slaves) or be forced to specific pairings (in the case of breeding colony slaves) in order to procreate. Population control, and all that.
This goes a bit in the face of lore that says that Amarr is having a slave 'shortage', but when Amarr has a much higher slave-to-free ratio than basically any RL slave holding society even after the 9th gen emancipation, that's something we don't really buy into.
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I apologize for misquoting you. Heritage is what I meant. I was thinking specifically about the conditions during Antediluvian slavery and why (according to some) it was doomed to fail.
I'm not sure what the population of free vs. slave is in the Amarrian empire. I have heard that it was as high as 50% of the population were slaves. Even with drones, surveillance, etc. this seems like a lot to me. During Antediluvian slavery, it was about 30%.
This would lead me to believe that Amarrian society would by necessity be a 'Spartan' society. In other words, Amarr is a militarized and apartheid Police state under constant threat of slave revolt. Many Amarrians would be well trained in the use of weapons, surveillance, and security systems.
Rights and privileges for slaves would mitigate this situation somewhat, but not entirely. Brutality would have to be publicly demonstrated as a deterrent, but too much brutality could spark a slave revolt.
If the Empire was dependent on slave labor, a slave revolt would grind things to a halt in the same way a general strike would. There would also be rioting and rebellious slaves to contend with as well.
I am wondering why slave revolts, or 'servile wars', are not more common in the Empire. At least, there is no mention of them in the PF (beyond the Jovian incident). Are the revolts quickly detected and snuffed out with satellites, drones, thermal detecting sensors, surveillance cameras and other oppressive technologies? Are they so commonplace that they become just another incident, like murders or muggings?
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I'm not sure what the population of free vs. slave is in the Amarrian empire. I have heard that it was as high as 50% of the population were slaves. Even with drones, surveillance, etc. this seems like a lot to me. During Antediluvian slavery, it was about 30%.
The ratio in the Empire is 49% slaves according to CCP Falcon, which amounts to approximately 21 trillion slaves (half of that being Minmatar).
This would lead me to believe that Amarrian society would by necessity be a 'Spartan' society. In other words, Amarr is a militarized and apartheid Police state under constant threat of slave revolt. Many Amarrians would be well trained in the use of weapons, surveillance, and security systems.
Yes but in a stratified sense. There is a high level of weapon control in the Empire. The ones who would have the weapons would be the Holder armies and kameira units (who would probably be used in a similar capacity as RL slave armies like Mamluks and Jannissaries, offering an army unbound by ties of family and heritage).
Rights and privileges for slaves would mitigate this situation somewhat, but not entirely. Brutality would have to be publicly demonstrated as a deterrent, but too much brutality could spark a slave revolt.
As seen with Arzad, an attempt at deterrent through public demonstration of consequence which only served to spark the Great Rebellion many years later.
If the Empire was dependent on slave labor, a slave revolt would grind things to a halt in the same way a general strike would. There would also be rioting and rebellious slaves to contend with as well.
Ergo why the Great Rebellion was so successful. The core worlds had greater infrastructure and security and so could withstand this, but the colony worlds around the former Minmatar Empire were basically at the mercy of the rioting slaves.
I am wondering why slave revolts, or 'servile wars', are not more common in the Empire. At least, there is no mention of them in the PF (beyond the Jovian incident). Are the revolts quickly detected and snuffed out with satellites, drones, thermal detecting sensors, surveillance cameras and other oppressive technologies? Are they so commonplace that they become just another incident, like murders or muggings?
There are several mentioned. There is also the inverse in Amarrian riots against slave populations (seen after the Blood Raiders released insorum over a planet and triggered a slave rebellion on that planet).
I think in general though that the society is mostly free enough to allow slaves to feel like they are members of society, which is what puts down most potential rebellions. Slave life in Amarr is certainly not anywhere near as limiting as any form of RL slavery in many ways. The lack of access of weapons for commoners and slaves and the powerful, modern weapons of the Holder forces also serves to make any kind of rebellion a lot less likely to succeed in comparison to ones we've had in the past. The technology difference between the rioters and the authorities would be immense.
I'd like to quote Source's description of slave life as I think it's relevant for this discussion. Chained to the Sky is also a very good source.
[spoiler]They were worked to the bone but not mistreated, not severely. No beatings to speak of if you kept your mouth shut and your mind on the mine, no capital punishment unless you really overstepped the line, and nobody dying by the wayside like an animal. The mine owners were tasked with a certain level of output, to ensure the continued prosperity of the Amarr Empire, and they had neither the inclination nor the profit margins to abuse, starve, or permanently damage their workers.
The caverns deprived them of the feel, smell, sights, and sounds of daily planetside life, but the air was at least kept clean down here, and the massive full-spectrum lamps hanging from the ceilings high above helped keep everyone's diurnal cycle and sanity intact. Work was done in rotating shifts--the overhead lighting had graduated to late evening by now--but a minimum rest period was mandated. They had holidays, too--there'd be a revolt if they didn't--but any slave who spent those doing anything worthwhile would be shunned by others, and considered unworthy of the time off. Most people spent their holidays hanging around and abusing the extra Vitoc meant to last them for trips into the city and back again.
If anyone's health started to fail due to age or ongoing illness, they would still not be allowed to transfer out of the mine, but they might be moved to easier tasks. This was not only because the Amarr wanted to squeeze every last drop of life out of their work force, but because they'd found that the Minmatar who'd been slaves to the empire all their lives had a really hard time handling any kind of freedom, and had been inculcated with an unyielding, albeit guilty, need to constantly be of use to somebody.
So they might still be used as tutors for other slaves, or as fetchers if they'd retained their strength, or even as planners for new projects, because they would have had a lot of experience in knowing what new slaves were likely to accept. Cali had learned from one of those: How to scout for new seams, how to blast open a tunnel withotu having it cave in or ruin the materials you were after, and how to tell when a seam was starting to run low and it was time to prepare for going deeper yet again. If she'd wanted, she could have picked up metallurgy, geology, even business, and taken a (limited) part in oiling and running the great, smog-wreathed machine she was enmeshed in. She had opportunities, restricted though they were, and she had a facsimile of some kind of life here, albeit one tethered to the Amarr Empire from beginning to end.
- "A Traitorous Spark", EVE Source[/spoiler]
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Also yes, surveillance stuff is commonplace. The Ministry of Internal Order is described as basically an unsecretive secret police. Everyone knows they're spying on everyone, and everyone is encouraged to report any sign of suspicious activity to them. So yes, police state.
Probably the biggest queller of social uprising is the informants who expose the orchestrators before it can get going, and so get large benefits as a result. I would expect this to be very common among slave communities: Treats for the one who informs on his disgruntled coworkers.
An additional major factor is the culture itself, which through society and religion indoctrinates the belief of submission to authority. This would be especially engendered amongst slaves, to the point that they have their very own church promoting it: The Salvation Church of Blessed Servitude. Refusal to obey authority is a sin, service is divine.
[Attacking a Holder] was unthinkable to the common Amarr man; the Empire, with its age-old traditions and structure, was the foundation of society itself. To every Amarrian life without the Empire was nothing but anarchy, chaos, dread and darkness.
... one of the rarest of social phenomenons in the Amarr Empire; that of social uprising.
-The Artifice Maker (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/short-stories/the-artifice-maker/)
(Artifice Maker is a good story regarding revolts, too. It describes one way the Empire handles them. In this case, it's a sting operation. They create a fake revolt leader, use him to gather up dissenters, and then arrest the lot them to show how easily the Empire puts down those who choose to rebel. Very Cardassian.)
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Breeding facilities =/= Slave brothels though.
Well, if you read the rather creepy in-game description for one or more of the breeding facilities (I forgot exactly what the item title is), pleasure is definitely part of the experience.
For better or worse, I don't in the slightest trust EVE players to be able to maintain any kind of reasonable IC-OOC distinction on this sensitive subject, despite its being present in the lore, and so don't anticipate trying to use this particular subject matter in any way.
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I just wanted to pop in and say that one should be wary of having a standardized notion of a 'Roman way' of slaveholding. It varied greatly depending on region. It doesn't matter how many laws technically protect you if you happen to live on the arse-end of the empire tremendously far away from Rome.
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Breeding facilities =/= Slave brothels though.
Well, if you read the rather creepy in-game description for one or more of the breeding facilities (I forgot exactly what the item title is), pleasure is definitely part of the experience.
For better or worse, I don't in the slightest trust EVE players to be able to maintain any kind of reasonable IC-OOC distinction on this sensitive subject, despite its being present in the lore, and so don't anticipate trying to use this particular subject matter in any way.
/me outstretches a clammy hand
I believe this is what you are looking for:
Amarrian Breeding Facility (http://eveinfo.com/npcship/26895/eve-online-amarrian-breeding-facility.html)
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The Lottery (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/the-lottery/) describes life on one of those breeding colonies, by the way. Notably, the slaves onboard are raised with complete non-awareness as to what actually goes on.
One was the Baby section, where new arrivals were kept while they were acclimatizing to the facility. None of the children knew what criteria had been used to select the facility's inhabitants, nor did they remember anything of their past lives, although a few recalled the Baby section being peaceful and bright. Right next to it, nameless and uninteresting, was a section where some of the young girls were taken after being doomed to the colonies. It was whispered that marriage ceremonies took place there, the girls married off to Minmatar men and taken to new lives where they could serve Amarrian masters for five years without Vitoc before being set free. Every now and then a cargo ship would dock, stay for a day or two and then depart, which spawned rumors that the men from those ships had been boarding the facility to get married.
-The Lottery
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Gaven and I have discussed this before, and thought that it would probably be more common that slaves would be physically prevented from breeding "independently" and that they either would require permission from their Holders (in the case of higher class, freer slaves) or be forced to specific pairings (in the case of breeding colony slaves) in order to procreate. Population control, and all that.
Here's where I'll disagree: While forced contraception might be a thing in the toughest work environments and places where a pregnancy might actually be a reasonably health risk, in general it clashes heavily with the idea of slavery being a method to create a loyal, faithful underclass. In many cases, you would instead want to encourage them to try and behave like "civilized people" - including forming families of their own when in religiously blessed unions.
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The unions wouldn't be religiously blessed, Ohrud Omel said that marriage is forbidden for slaves (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2539775#post2539775), though of course there would be civil partnerships going on in some capacity (whether completely informal and unofficial or more or less validated by the Holders. Allowing such would be necessary for slave control and we have seen family units existing among slaves in lore). It's said in Chained to the Sky that one of the things the 9th gen slaves would be needed to do on being freed is get their unions registered with the authorities.
But yes, they would be encouraged to behave like civilized people and have families, I just think that in many cases these families would be ones that the Holder or custodians would want some level of say in. It wouldn't be something that would probably entail a whole lot of restrictions, just a simple requirement of permission from your custodian/Holder/overseer which is probably given on principle. This would be especially when these families cross Holder-lines (slave owned by one Holder wanting to get together with a slave from another Holder). This kind of control of the family is something that has existed in other forms of slavery and serves as another method of making the slaves dependent on their masters--and giving their masters another permission that they can grant or withhold as a method of slave control. By having a say in even the most trivial of matters, the masters indoctrinate the slaves into a high level of dependency on them and create a scenario in which they can manipulate their slaves easily without having to always fall back on the lash.
"We want to get married! We need to get permission from X. We want to go to town! We need to get permission from X. We want to buy Y luxury good! We need to get permission from X. We want to do anything that requires independent initiative! We need permission from X." And the Holder/Custodian/Overseer says, "I will give you all of these things, as long as you are good." And so the slaves are good, because then they get these things that would be trivial parts of life anywhere else. It makes even the simplest parts of life a reward, a privilege, one that can be taken away.
Now, regarding birth control though, 'A Treacherous Spark' talks about Cali getting accidentally pregnant via a sexual encounter. So, lore-wise, a widescale birth control thing of slave populations is probably not the case. Though I do still think that the marriage equivalent would be controlled, and that the institution of birth control would be a control used by some Holders or as a punishment in some holdings.
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Gotta consider the breeding too. Can't allow poor stock to breed.
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Gotta consider the breeding too. Can't allow poor stock to breed.
Yup.
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/me misses having a herd :(
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/me misses having a herd :(
I misread herd, and didn't want to know where this was going.
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Confirming Mitara is a zombie.
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I'm still waiting for someone to come up with cute zombies. Dey just so uggo.
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lots of goodness
If Esna wouldn't have already given the Amash-Akura edict, I would have brought it up. Thankfully, I don't need to. It is really something to be considered, if thinking about master-slave relations in the Empire. Yes, I know that in the 'net subculture there are heaps of people who love the idea of sexual slavery and I guess it is natural that it comes up, but really...
We have little reason to think that forced sexual relations are anything but the exception in the Empire as there isn't a piece of PF that suggests that it is accepted or even tolerated, while there is a lot of PF that suggest that it is frowned upon and even opposed. Especially the Amash-Akura edict would suggest that there is scriptural law of the highest order that opposes forcing sexual relations onto slaves.
There is also more to it: While many people in the Amarr RP community tend to interprete the idea of Amarr superiority along the lines of genetics and race, and it might be true that many Amarr nowadays see it like that, given that that's the stance outlined by EVE: Source, there is also reason to think that this is a view that only came to be with the mass influx of slaves with capturing the Matari (Of which a good percentage is, by the way, not 'black', but quite pale: The Sebiestor for example are even paler than the average Amarr.).
The scraps of Scripture as well as other PF suggests that the Amarr understood 'heritage' to be rather a cultural thing than a genetic one. This goes hand in hand with the idea of orthopraxis rather than orthodoxy being the thing that is placed more importance on in the Empire. Arguably, the opposition to Udorians and especially the Tash-Murkonites lies to a great degree in them obviously not having abandoned the mercantilistic ways of the Udorians.
Also, Scripture, as far as we know it, as well as a differential analysis of Amarr culture in comparison to what is considered heretic (here mostly Sani Sabikism) shows that there is the idea that 'right makes might' rather than the other way around. While Amarr probably see that, if this implication is true, might is a good indicator of righteousness, it in no way makes the inverse true.
This is why Amarr can accept that Mad Emperors can be put down and why True Amarr that go heretic are even worse than a heathan that joins up with the Raiders. It also allsows them to maintain a concept of abuse of power, which they clearly do have.
The mighty are thus assumed to be righteous only in so far as they fulfill other requirements. Deviation from orthopraxy will quickly lead to the downfall of the high and mighty, though. This is a quite strong mechanism against deviancy.
Does this mean that there is no sexual abuse of slaves happening? Of course not. But it means that there won't be, quite probably, institutionalized forms of slave rape like 'frontline brothels'. A slaver abusing a slave boy as her 'sex toy' will be quite under pressure to not reveal her 'little secret'. The constant threat of such behaviour being revealed, it being shameful not only because of the abuse, but also because someone enganing in this - who is required to act in a way that ensures your 'ritual purity', that is not make yourself common with the unfaithful - lower themself to animal behaviour, will certailny lead to such practice being the exception.
That said, not everyone has the fantasy to rape someone they have the responsibity for. <,< And even if there is the fantasy, that doesn't mean that there is so little impulse control to succumb to it. Amarr are characterised as the ethnicity in eve with the most willpower, after all. It doesn't make sense to picture them as secretly being the most deboucherous, save from maybe our outside point of view.
If one looks for people abusing slaves, we have much more reason by PF to look at the slavery-practicing pirate factions and the Gallente Federation, indeed.
All that said: I also think it is rediculous that in some of the texts here there is the implication that the Empire's Navy is exclusively run by males. When in fact the current Empress, the biggest benefactor of the Navy, is female, was previously the head of the singlemost militaristic of the great houses of Amarr, which incidentally has the biggest influence of all houses on the Navy as well. While there is evidence that there are gender roles in the Empire, there is no evidence at all that it means they have to stay at home and can't go to the Navy. <,< But I guess that is a sepreate topic, so I said enough about that.
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The scraps of Scripture as well as other PF suggests that the Amarr understood 'heritage' to be rather a cultural thing than a genetic one. This goes hand in hand with the idea of orthopraxis rather than orthodoxy being the thing that is placed more importance on in the Empire. Arguably, the opposition to Udorians and especially the Tash-Murkonites lies to a great degree in them obviously not having abandoned the mercantilistic ways of the Udorians.
I'd say 'in addition to' rather than, well, 'rather than'. There is enough PF, new and old, that indicates it. Genetics and not just culture is certainly something that comes up very often with Ardishapurites, at least. However, as we see with the news article about Derak Tanar, such beliefs are considered bad form in today's Amarr to the point that a person outwardly expressing it is considered scandalous by all but the most conservative groups.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/ardishapur-school-chancellor-appointee-draws-criticism-1/
This is why Amarr can accept that Mad Emperors can be put down and why True Amarr that go heretic are even worse than a heathan that joins up with the Raiders. It also allsows them to maintain a concept of abuse of power, which they clearly do have.
Except Mad Emperors can't be put down. This is a thing that is often confused. The Mad Emperor was not an emperor admitted to be mad and put down. He was covered up and his years of reign given to someone completely separate in the history books. It's been entirely whitewashed.
Does this mean that there is no sexual abuse of slaves happening? Of course not. But it means that there won't be, quite probably, institutionalized forms of slave rape like 'frontline brothels'. A slaver abusing a slave boy as her 'sex toy' will be quite under pressure to not reveal her 'little secret'. The constant threat of such behaviour being revealed, it being shameful not only because of the abuse, but also because someone enganing in this - who is required to act in a way that ensures your 'ritual purity', that is not make yourself common with the unfaithful - lower themself to animal behaviour, will certailny lead to such practice being the exception.
Agreed. The breeding colonies do represent a conflict with this, though. It's quite hypocritical to be opposed to sexual abuse of slaves by the Holder/custodians but it being a-okay to have them abused by other slaves for the sake of breeding.
That said, not everyone has the fantasy to rape someone they have the responsibity for. <,< And even if there is the fantasy, that doesn't mean that there is so little impulse control to succumb to it. Amarr are characterised as the ethnicity in eve with the most willpower, after all. It doesn't make sense to picture them as secretly being the most deboucherous, save from maybe our outside point of view.
I would say that most would be able to control the impulses and this is why I specifically included such a person in Sami's backstory. I wanted to show that type of proper True Amarr who, despite having temptations, kept it in his pants because of his faith.
However for every person who is strong-willed and able to resist, there are others who are not. And in a society where a great many things are prohibited and repressed, it makes the temptation more difficult to resist I think.
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If one looks for people abusing slaves, we have much more reason by PF to look at the slavery-practicing pirate factions and the Gallente Federation, indeed.
I feel that I should put a footnote on this. The notion that the Angels in particular (we all know what Raiders do with their slaves) have some kind of deviant obsession or objectives with their slaves is not a PF-related thing. It is a player created thing, much like the Amarr elements you have mentioned that are due to player obsessions - not the PF.
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The scraps of Scripture as well as other PF suggests that the Amarr understood 'heritage' to be rather a cultural thing than a genetic one. This goes hand in hand with the idea of orthopraxis rather than orthodoxy being the thing that is placed more importance on in the Empire. Arguably, the opposition to Udorians and especially the Tash-Murkonites lies to a great degree in them obviously not having abandoned the mercantilistic ways of the Udorians.
I'd say 'in addition to' rather than, well, 'rather than'. There is enough PF, new and old, that indicates it. Genetics and not just culture is certainly something that comes up very often with Ardishapurites, at least. However, as we see with the news article about Derak Tanar, such beliefs are considered bad form in today's Amarr to the point that a person outwardly expressing it is considered scandalous by all but the most conservative groups.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/ardishapur-school-chancellor-appointee-draws-criticism-1/
This news article about Derak Tanar is usually pulled up to present the 'racial' view as 'conservative'. Yet, nothing in the article suggests that the 'racial' view is particularly traditional or something to be 'conserved'. While his lecture was "Scriptural Evidence Supporting the Continuing Servitude of Udorians, Ealurians, Khanid, Ni-Kunni, and Minmatar." it is clear from the article that it represents an interpretation that actually goes against tradition as the article points out that it advocated a stripping of title and privilege from all citizens of the Empire who were not of pure True Amarrian ancestry, as the Udorians and Khanids which, by tradition, hold those titles for a really long time.
Tanar himself might be a conservative, but his view about the "inferiority of those of non-pure Amarrian blood" doesn't need to be a conservative view. Rather it seems to me that it is a view adopted by those that want to push back the influence of non-True Amarr. They might do so because of a generally conservative agenda (like ensuring the purity of Amarrian heritage, which certainly is a traditional and conservative position), but that also doesn't make it a particularly conservative position either.
This is why Amarr can accept that Mad Emperors can be put down and why True Amarr that go heretic are even worse than a heathan that joins up with the Raiders. It also allsows them to maintain a concept of abuse of power, which they clearly do have.
Except Mad Emperors can't be put down. This is a thing that is often confused. The Mad Emperor was not an emperor admitted to be mad and put down. He was covered up and his years of reign given to someone completely separate in the history books. It's been entirely whitewashed.
But all that doesn't mean that a 'Mad Emperor' can't be put down: it merely means that a Mad Emperor can't be Emperor. Which only underscores my point of 'right makes might'. If you are not living a righteous life in fear of God, but rather think you yourself are the God, then you can't be Emperor, which is having the power that the Emperor excercises. It's not the fact that he had been put down that necessitated him being excised from historical accords, but the fact that he was not righteous. As he was not righteous, he never was legitimately Emperor to begin with. Thus he was stricken from the records, because he was never legitimately placed in there, anyway.
So, yah, it means that technically you are right, as the man that St. Tetrimon did put down was by definition not Emperor. But that's beside the point: Amarr have concepts that allow them to distinguish between de facto 'Emperors' and de jure Emperors. That they exclude 'Emperors' that weren't de jure but only de facto 'Emperors' from historiography doesn't mean that they 'whitewash' history to not present the case of someone going awry being put down. It merely means that they accord someone that twisted and sinful one of the worst punishments they know: Giving him over to nothingness and being forgotten. It is also the treatment they deserve according their real station.
After all, in contrast to the Mad Emperor, Inire was beatified by the Council for his actions as St. Tetrimon. That wouldn't have been possible if his act of tyrannicide would be thought of as 'impossible'.
But yah, I don't even have to go as far as pointing to the Emperor not being above having to conform to the ideal of 'righteousness and fear of God'. It is also true for the Heirs, as we saw with Aritcio. Aritcio was after all clearly punished for his abuse of power.
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If one looks for people abusing slaves, we have much more reason by PF to look at the slavery-practicing pirate factions and the Gallente Federation, indeed.
I feel that I should put a footnote on this. The notion that the Angels in particular (we all know what Raiders do with their slaves) have some kind of deviant obsession or objectives with their slaves is not a PF-related thing. It is a player created thing, much like the Amarr elements you have mentioned that are due to player obsessions - not the PF.
I neither meant to nor do I see how I intimated that Angels in particular have "some kind of deviant obsession or objectives with their slaves". I agree though, that PF doesn't imply as much, as far as I can see. Yet, in distinction to the Amarr, I don't see anything in PF that suggests that there are any mechanism preventing it within the Angels.
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The Lottery (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/the-lottery/) describes life on one of those breeding colonies, by the way. Notably, the slaves onboard are raised with complete non-awareness as to what actually goes on.
One was the Baby section, where new arrivals were kept while they were acclimatizing to the facility. None of the children knew what criteria had been used to select the facility's inhabitants, nor did they remember anything of their past lives, although a few recalled the Baby section being peaceful and bright. Right next to it, nameless and uninteresting, was a section where some of the young girls were taken after being doomed to the colonies. It was whispered that marriage ceremonies took place there, the girls married off to Minmatar men and taken to new lives where they could serve Amarrian masters for five years without Vitoc before being set free. Every now and then a cargo ship would dock, stay for a day or two and then depart, which spawned rumors that the men from those ships had been boarding the facility to get married.
-The Lottery
So basically the feudal version of mail-ordered brides, minus the delivery.
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The Lottery (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/the-lottery/) describes life on one of those breeding colonies, by the way. Notably, the slaves onboard are raised with complete non-awareness as to what actually goes on.
One was the Baby section, where new arrivals were kept while they were acclimatizing to the facility. None of the children knew what criteria had been used to select the facility's inhabitants, nor did they remember anything of their past lives, although a few recalled the Baby section being peaceful and bright. Right next to it, nameless and uninteresting, was a section where some of the young girls were taken after being doomed to the colonies. It was whispered that marriage ceremonies took place there, the girls married off to Minmatar men and taken to new lives where they could serve Amarrian masters for five years without Vitoc before being set free. Every now and then a cargo ship would dock, stay for a day or two and then depart, which spawned rumors that the men from those ships had been boarding the facility to get married.
-The Lottery
So basically the feudal version of mail-ordered brides, minus the delivery.
And minus the brides. The lottery is for boys. The girls are used for breeding with other slaves.
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The unions wouldn't be religiously blessed, Ohrud Omel said that marriage is forbidden for slaves (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2539775#post2539775), though of course there would be civil partnerships going on in some capacity (whether completely informal and unofficial or more or less validated by the Holders. Allowing such would be necessary for slave control and we have seen family units existing among slaves in lore). It's said in Chained to the Sky that one of the things the 9th gen slaves would be needed to do on being freed is get their unions registered with the authorities.
The quote by Omel only implies, in my opinion, that a marriage between a free man or even holder and a slave was impossible. If what 'was whispered' in The Lottery is true, slaves are able to marry amongst slaves.
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Gaven and I have discussed this before, and thought that it would probably be more common that slaves would be physically prevented from breeding "independently" and that they either would require permission from their Holders (in the case of higher class, freer slaves) or be forced to specific pairings (in the case of breeding colony slaves) in order to procreate. Population control, and all that.
Here's where I'll disagree: While forced contraception might be a thing in the toughest work environments and places where a pregnancy might actually be a reasonably health risk, in general it clashes heavily with the idea of slavery being a method to create a loyal, faithful underclass. In many cases, you would instead want to encourage them to try and behave like "civilized people" - including forming families of their own when in religiously blessed unions.
The issue with this is slaves in positions that do not allow for maternity/paternity leave and which are considered higher value by the holder than the prospect of slave children. I just cannot imagine Holders not wanting to have control of who produces kids with whom and when. And I certainly can't imagine that EVE lacks birth control. Hence, it makes sense to me that Holders would often as a matter of course mandate birth control use unless they want the female slave to become pregnant. Edit: I can certainly imagine that *some* holders would avoid doing this due to religious arguments, but many would care more about efficacious slaves than they would religious justifications.
I would also expect that this differs region to region in Amarr. One of the big points I would like to make is that the interpretation of the purpose of slavery is varied and changes from one region to another massively. I don't think *any* of our sources in the PF can be used to talk about *all* Amarrian slavery. Amarr is just too big for that. If there was a single interpretation of what slavery means in Amarr that would actually be totally unbelievable and unrealistic. So I would suggest that we localize each PF piece talking about it and use it to talk about regional interpretations rather than Amarrian interpretations.
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I neither meant to nor do I see how I intimated that Angels in particular have "some kind of deviant obsession or objectives with their slaves". I agree though, that PF doesn't imply as much, as far as I can see. Yet, in distinction to the Amarr, I don't see anything in PF that suggests that there are any mechanism preventing it within the Angels.
True, there is nothing in the PF that implies they have a mechanism against such a thing. Since I don't want to derail the thread about Angels, I'll just leave it by saying that I think the focus of some Angel roleplayers of going down that road is unfortunate and against the general 'feel' the PF gives the Angels.
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Agreed. The breeding colonies do represent a conflict with this, though. It's quite hypocritical to be opposed to sexual abuse of slaves by the Holder/custodians but it being a-okay to have them abused by other slaves for the sake of breeding.
I'm increasingly wondering if we as capsuleers run into these things for specifically this reason: If breeding facilities are heavily looked down on, then it makes sense that they would be hidden away at highly secret deadspace facilities, which are considerably harder to find than any planetside or station-based operation. When they are attacked, it also follows that the owner would want to contract defense out to a capsuleer who is not going to give a damn about the facility 99% of the time and not may not have any realistic means to recover the people within even when they do.
Or it could just be a conflicting mission legacy fluke, like the huge fleets casually violating empire sovereignty.
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The scraps of Scripture as well as other PF suggests that the Amarr understood 'heritage' to be rather a cultural thing than a genetic one. This goes hand in hand with the idea of orthopraxis rather than orthodoxy being the thing that is placed more importance on in the Empire. Arguably, the opposition to Udorians and especially the Tash-Murkonites lies to a great degree in them obviously not having abandoned the mercantilistic ways of the Udorians.
I'd say 'in addition to' rather than, well, 'rather than'. There is enough PF, new and old, that indicates it. Genetics and not just culture is certainly something that comes up very often with Ardishapurites, at least. However, as we see with the news article about Derak Tanar, such beliefs are considered bad form in today's Amarr to the point that a person outwardly expressing it is considered scandalous by all but the most conservative groups.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/ardishapur-school-chancellor-appointee-draws-criticism-1/
This news article about Derak Tanar is usually pulled up to present the 'racial' view as 'conservative'. Yet, nothing in the article suggests that the 'racial' view is particularly traditional or something to be 'conserved'. While his lecture was "Scriptural Evidence Supporting the Continuing Servitude of Udorians, Ealurians, Khanid, Ni-Kunni, and Minmatar." it is clear from the article that it represents an interpretation that actually goes against tradition as the article points out that it advocated a stripping of title and privilege from all citizens of the Empire who were not of pure True Amarrian ancestry, as the Udorians and Khanids which, by tradition, hold those titles for a really long time.
Tanar himself might be a conservative, but his view about the "inferiority of those of non-pure Amarrian blood" doesn't need to be a conservative view. Rather it seems to me that it is a view adopted by those that want to push back the influence of non-True Amarr. They might do so because of a generally conservative agenda (like ensuring the purity of Amarrian heritage, which certainly is a traditional and conservative position), but that also doesn't make it a particularly conservative position either.
I was referring to the fact that backlash only happened among the non-TA nobility/wealthy commoners and liberal True Amarr only. The conservatives didn't object to his statements.
Additionally, most instances of support for racial purity in lore have come from conservative characters, and frequently from the Ardishapur bloc.
Also, whether or not it is actually traditional or not is hard to place. It is definitely a thing to keep in mind that what was once traditional is now liberal in many cases, due to the Moral Reforms. The Ardishapurites, afterall, cannot be counted as truly traditional when they in fact supported the Moral Reforms to regain their position of power, and thus at the time acted in establishing a new 'tradition'. It's quite possible that racial ideas are something that has only cropped up in recent centuries but are now touted as a 'conservative' belief today.
I do however believe that it is a conservative mindset in today's Amarr whether or not it was always one. There have been too many instances of conservatives in lore supporting the belief either directly (in the case of Tanar, Idonis, and Yonis, among others) or indirectly (the fact that conservatives are shown to have no issue with Tanar's claims, and that prior to recently Ardishapur territories were a place with many stigmas in place towards those of non-TA bloodlines and races, according to Ardishapur Family article). And Tanar was placed in power specifically because Yonis wants to put what he considers traditional values at the fore to challenge Jamyl's influence: The fact that Yonis claims it's "because of his performance and not his beliefs" is just Yonis's PR spin to avoid looking like he's directly supporting what is at least today an outlier belief, but he definitely is wanting Tanar's ideals at the fore.
In other words, I think the racial purity thing is a hardcore conservative trait. But that is, it is a trait seen among at least the highly conservative members of the conservative political bloc in today's Amarr. And what counts as conservative in a political bloc does not always mean actually traditional or conservative (see America's conservative party which has values that would not be considered conservative in other places. It's 'conservative' for a particular point in history that it wants to preserve in today's world, even though that point in history is still relatively recent). I do not think the view has always been in favor, however, and that it isn't truly traditional in terms of the religion and Scripture except in perhaps the oldest records or most obscure records (which were possibly explicitly edited in in later centuries, much like the increased power given to the emperor which is now also touted as a conservative belief even though most of it didn't exist until the Moral Reforms).
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Given what you write in your last response, Samira, I don't see where you then still say that the 'racial view' is conservative, save for it being held by 'conservatives'.
I'd define conservatism as a political and social philosophy that promotes retaining traditional social institutions in the context of the culture and civilization. Conservative ideas proper are then to be understood as those traditional ideas that are seen to be so valuable that they should be retained.
Thus, I'd make a sharp distinction between 'conservative views' and 'views held by (so-called) conservatives'.
Of course 'traditional' is realtive. But there is a tradition that encompasses how things were handeled since the moral reforms. Arguably there is a tradition of a strong Emperor since that time (and arguably one that is connecting to the reign of Amash-Akura himself).
The idea of 'racial purity' doesn't have a history in Amarr, though, it seems to me, that reaches back any further than the conquest of the Matari, probably though even being a reaction to the Matari rebellion. I think people treading the 'racial line' are better characterised as 'reactionary' than 'conservative' (so, yes 'hardcore-conservatives'), even, as they clearly yearn for the ancient times when there were only Amarr back on Amarr island - though even then there was arguably no idea of 'racial purity' at the forefront, as the issue simply didn't arise. It's a trait of people overcompensating in trying to conserve what they think the Empire has already lost.
Also, I'm not quite sure where the notion arose that Ardishapurites have a tradition of 'trying to preserve racial purity':
When Yonis was for Championship trials 'as long as they remained racially pure' can't really be understood that he was supporting a cause alike to Tanar's racism. This can be easily seen as he wanted to exclude non-Amarr in the broad use of the term 'Amarr'. Also when building up the Ammatar mandate he didn't put them all under the thump of True Amarr, which he very well could have done. Rather he promoted on the one hand a more pure Amarrian culture, that was none the less upheld by Ammatar leadership. And the same goes for his very own domains as reforms pushed by Yonis have encouraged people of all races and bloodlines to seek religious enlightenment there. By the way the original Ardishapur power base on Athra was Ves-Udor! I'm quite sure that carried over to the population of the modern Ardishapurite domains.
So, I don't see where Yonis is placing Tanar where he is for any other reasons than the ones he stated, nor why he should do so. After all Jamyl is True Amarr. If purity would be dependant on race and genetics in addition to (instead of only on) righteous and faithful action, that would actually stregthen Jamyls position as she will be passing the race and genetics test with flying flags.
Also, I don't see where in the article (on the Evelopedia at least), you read that "Ardishapur territories were a place with many stigmas in place towards those of non-TA bloodlines and races". The only thing I read there is that "Many of the old stigmas still exist, however, making the area particularly uncomfortable for foreigners.". Foreigners, though, are arguably not identical with 'non-True Amarr', as many natives of the Ardishapur Domains will be in fact Udorians, as I argued above. In fact it is quite probable that 'foreigners' encompasses in this case True Amarr from other domains.
I don't think that in the history of Amarr the 'racial view' ever had a place in orthodoxy: The only place in history where we know that such ideas developed was with the Sani Sabik and they quite surely, I think, have been purged together with the heretics. There might be allusions to this from the Proto-Sabik era still in the corpus, but I'd guess that one would have to put some effort and will into them to come to conclude that it is race/genetics that make the Amarr superior.
That aside, it is really rediculous to argue for the 'continued servitude of the Khanid', when the vast majority of the Khanid never were in servitude to the Amarr, but rather allies. Tanar might not see that, but Yonis is (hopefully, you never know where CCP goes) too smart for not seeing that. After all he is described as preferring the 'caroot to the stick', practicing a kind of cultural mercantilism where he is against cultural import while at the same time sending out highly trained missionaries. I'm sure he sees that 'continued servitude to your True Amarr masters' doesn't make a particularly great carrot. If he'd see it like Tanar, he'd surely be more the 'stick' kind'a guy...
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I would also expect that this differs region to region in Amarr. One of the big points I would like to make is that the interpretation of the purpose of slavery is varied and changes from one region to another massively. I don't think *any* of our sources in the PF can be used to talk about *all* Amarrian slavery. Amarr is just too big for that. If there was a single interpretation of what slavery means in Amarr that would actually be totally unbelievable and unrealistic. So I would suggest that we localize each PF piece talking about it and use it to talk about regional interpretations rather than Amarrian interpretations.
I kind'a disagree. Exactly because Amarr is so big there needs to be set a certain range in which then, in turn, variation happens. Else the Amarr would disintegrate into distinct cultures. Scriptural Law has exactly that function. It states the purpose of slavery and defines certain basics (like outlawing slave abuse) - and they dam well will claim that those things apply all over the Empire. Little pockets where scriptural law is not practiced but opposed by practice better pray the MIO and the TC don't take notice. (Which ofc doesn't mean they don't exist, but again they'd be the exception.) Differences will be in what constitues e.g. slave abuse aor how the (educative) pupose of slavery is fulfilled.
If there'd be fundamental disunities allowed in defining things like this (slavery is intricately linked with the idea of relaiming and thus central to Amarr identity), Amarr wouldn't be able to maintain unity over such vast territories. Thus, if there is not some fundamental Empire wide interpretation/definition of what slavery means (on which details then regions can variate), that would be totally unbelievable and unrealistic - in my opinion.
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I think Amarr *is* distinct cultures depending on area, class, region ect.
The way I see the Amarr controlling things is to create a list of unacceptable practice, IE Heresies, that is updated and maintained to keep people in line. So, if you say x heretical thing you get called out, but as long as you aren't crossing a forbidden territory line, I think there is massive room for variation. Basically, restrictive theology is more likely than prescriptive theology on most day to day points. Everyone has different views, but if a view is too far out of line it gets banned then everyone has to disavow it. This sort of approach is certainly how the creation of Orthodoxy in the Late Antique period worked, and that was a much smaller scale than Amarr.
I really cannot imagine a culturally homogeneous culture on the scale of CCP's Amarr.
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Logically speaking, restrictive theology and prescriptive theology are essentially not that different. Whether you say 'treat your slaves right' or 'don't abuse your slaves' is basically just semantics. Similarly, you can state the educative purpose of slavery positively or negatively.
And in fact Christianity, as it started to get bigger and bigger, turned away from simply banning those that were too far out, but established an orthodoxy (on which then, in the details there ins variance).
That aside, that there are certain fundamentals on which all Amarr agree doesn't mean that the Amarr are culturally homogenous. It's like the modern day "western cultural sphere": There are hughe differences between, say, Germans and texans, but yet there are certain fundamentals they (generally) agree on (Like: Slavery is bad.). The HRE was most of the time not culturally homogenous, yet, there were certain standards that were enforced Empire wide, which kept it (sometimes barely) together. One needs elements that tie an otherwise heterogenous entity together, otherwise it desintegrates.
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Thus, I'd make a sharp distinction between 'conservative views' and 'views held by (so-called) conservatives'.
I tend to see it as the party determining the views rather than vice versa. IE if conservatives hold a view, even if it's not conservative or traditional in any kind of 'real' way, it's still part of the conservative dogma because that's the view they hold. In other words I think what is classified as conservative is going to be based very little on Scripture or history (or rather, they'll be based on a few very specific eras or pieces of Scripture that can be twisted to suit political needs), and very much on what modern Amarrian conservatives profess and can convince others is conservative.
This is, of course, something that should and probably would be argued in Amarrian politics. "You say you hold conservative values, yet you claim X for Y reason!" This is especially the case in the Council of Apostles issue, where one can easily say that the CoA would be the traditional choice and yet modern conservatives are highly opposed to it.
I think people treading the 'racial line' are better characterised as 'reactionary' than 'conservative' (so, yes 'hardcore-conservatives'), even, as they clearly yearn for the ancient times when there were only Amarr back on Amarr island - though even then there was arguably no idea of 'racial purity' at the forefront, as the issue simply didn't arise. It's a trait of people overcompensating in trying to conserve what they think the Empire has already lost.
Yes, agreed very much with this. Reactionary is a good word. I went with hardcore conservativism for lieue of saying anything else, but I would consider at least the strongest forms of it (like Tanar) to be considered extremism and so yes, reactionary. And Tanar is doing like I said above, trying to take a small piece of Scripture and argue that it proves a certain value that should therefore be applied in modern society.
When Yonis was for Championship trials 'as long as they remained racially pure' can't really be understood that he was supporting a cause alike to Tanar's racism. This can be easily seen as he wanted to exclude non-Amarr in the broad use of the term 'Amarr'. Also when building up the Ammatar mandate he didn't put them all under the thump of True Amarr, which he very well could have done. Rather he promoted on the one hand a more pure Amarrian culture, that was none the less upheld by Ammatar leadership.
Explicitly because he was politically savvy. Jamyl and everyone else expected him to put them all under the thump of True Amarr and cause unrest amongst the Mandate and thus weaken himself. He acted out of character in his handling of the Mandate.
As for his stance, it is stated in Source that he is a 'True Amarr supremacist', which again is precisely why he was considered likely to fail in the Mandate and surprised everyone when he didn't. So as I see it any case we see of him demonstrating other values are the result of his public relations campaign and not a reflection of his real values. He's a politician.
Also, I don't see where in the article (on the Evelopedia at least), you read that "Ardishapur territories were a place with many stigmas in place towards those of non-TA bloodlines and races". The only thing I read there is that "Many of the old stigmas still exist, however, making the area particularly uncomfortable for foreigners.". Foreigners, though, are arguably not identical with 'non-True Amarr', as many natives of the Ardishapur Domains will be in fact Udorians, as I argued above. In fact it is quite probable that 'foreigners' encompasses in this case True Amarr from other domains.
I referred to that part for the fact that it says that prior to Yonis, Ardishapur territories were bad places for non-TA bloodlines. Them opening up is something recent.
"... reforms pushed by Yonis have encouraged people of all races and bloodlines to seek religious enlightenment."
Ergo, prior to Yonis's reforms people of non-TA races and bloodlines were not encouraged (if not discouraged). For reforms to be instituted requires there to have been something to be changed.
So, I don't see where Yonis is placing Tanar where he is for any other reasons than the ones he stated, nor why he should do so. After all Jamyl is True Amarr. If purity would be dependant on race and genetics in addition to (instead of only on) righteous and faithful action, that would actually stregthen Jamyls position as she will be passing the race and genetics test with flying flags.
I suppose so. For me, I see it as mostly the idea that Yonis wants someone who will go hardliner leading the education field, so that up-and-coming Amarrians will be educated on values closer to that. While yes, Jamyl is TA, she fails in many other areas that hardliners would oppose. I suppose in this case I am reading more from it and assuming that the extremist TA supremacy also indicates Tanar being extremist in other areas than Yonis is hoping will get passed on.
I don't think that in the history of Amarr the 'racial view' ever had a place in orthodoxy: The only place in history where we know that such ideas developed was with the Sani Sabik and they quite surely, I think, have been purged together with the heretics. There might be allusions to this from the Proto-Sabik era still in the corpus, but I'd guess that one would have to put some effort and will into them to come to conclude that it is race/genetics that make the Amarr superior.
This is something I still don't get. I really don't get where people read into the idea that Sani Sabik is where the idea of racial purity comes from. The Apocrypha is the only Scripture we have that -explicitly- says that everyone is equal in God's kingdom, and that's Sani Sabik Scripture. And many Sani Sabik sects promote a much less restrictive opportunity for ascension, excepting the ones that are closer to the Amarrian tradition.
"The nature of these savants varies from sect to sect, with some following closely to the Amarr tradition of the chosen being born that way. The Blood Raiders view the practice more liberally, considering anyone strong enough to embrace the Blood Raider lifestyle worthy of being called one of the chosen. Such a belief is found in many of the other sects scattered across New Eden and is especially appealing to Amarr commoners, who seek to rise above their restrictive stations." - Sani Sabik, EVElopedia
'Chosen being born that way' is described as being the Amarrian tradition, whereas other sects are more open and this makes them very appealing. So I don't get how Amarr is seen as the one with less emphasis on racial purity and Sani Sabik on more.
That aside, it is really rediculous to argue for the 'continued servitude of the Khanid', when the vast majority of the Khanid never were in servitude to the Amarr, but rather allies. Tanar might not see that, but Yonis is (hopefully, you never know where CCP goes) too smart for not seeing that. After all he is described as preferring the 'caroot to the stick', practicing a kind of cultural mercantilism where he is against cultural import while at the same time sending out highly trained missionaries. I'm sure he sees that 'continued servitude to your True Amarr masters' doesn't make a particularly great carrot. If he'd see it like Tanar, he'd surely be more the 'stick' kind'a guy...
Well, Yonis is a carrot first, stick later guy. If there is anything 'bigger' in Tanar's appointment, it is as an investment in a much longer plan. The carrot being the reforms and speaches on today's generation, the stick being Tanar's educational reforms instilling certain values on the next generations, generations Ardishapur may be wanting to be able to rise up if necessary.
That's getting into hypothesis though. I just really, really don't see Tanar being appointed "just" for his administrative skills and so I assume some grander plan behind it.
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Now,first there is no such thing as a 'conservative party' in Amarr. There is a more or less loose association of people which form a 'conservative bloc'. And they do so because of the views they hold. Actaully, even the conservative parites of our world weren't called 'conservative' simply because they choose so, but because they held views that were considered conservative prior to said parties existing. For people born later it seems that something is a 'conservative view' because the 'conservative party' holds it, but that is more due to sloppy use of language: Because people don't pay attention to such little details as 'the conservative's dogma' and 'conservative dogma'.
That said, conservatives don't aim to conserve anything and everything. Usually they aim to conserve institutions that they consider valuable. An Amarrian conservative can effortlessly argue that the valuable parts of the CoA have been salvaged and that the tradition of that institution lives on in the form of Privy and Theology Council. Actually he can even argue that prior to the moral reforms the CoA acquired more and more powers, continually weakening the position of Emperor and the Moral Reforms only restored a balance of power as intended by Amash Akura, where the Emperor rules and the Council(s) councel, insted of the Emperor being reduced to a figure head. The Moral Reforms were a restoration movement!
As for Yonis being politically savvy: Being politically savvy requires some measure of pragmatism in ones view. A racist like Tanar lacks such and so does his position. The fact that Yonis was politically savvy in that situation proves that he doesn't put 'True Amarrian race and blood' first. I don't see him acting out of character in the case of the Mandate; He acted like an educated monarch. That the other heirs juged him to act differently is rather a result of them not knowing him well, than him acting out of character: Otherwise he'd act out of character in his own domains again and generally act so much out of character, that in his actions he'd be a different man.
That is not at odds with him being described as 'True Amarr Supremacist' in Source, by the way. Nothing in the word 'Supremacists' necessitates that he is also a 'Racist'. Actually, his actions in the Mandate are very much aligned with this supremacist attitude, supplanting local customs with True Amarr ones, as can be seen in the swing away from the Ammatar church to the Amarrian Orthodoxy. This shows quite nicely that, apparently, the other heirs mistook his culture centered views on Amarr supremacy for simplistic racism.
I'll respond to the other parts of your response later, as I need to head out...tbc
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Yeah, there really isn't a "party" in so much terms. I used the word mostly because it felt like it better conveyed the point I was trying to convey (language is hard): That is, that the people running the thing (I suppose the people who make up the bloc, in this case) are the ones that determine the principles. But on that, I see what you're saying. Perhaps I'm just disenfranchised by certain... well, don't want to bring up RL politics. <.<
The Moral Reforms were a restoration movement!
Hahah. I like that. :D And yeah, I wouldn't say they try to conserve everything. Which is what I was trying to say with the thing about focusing on very particular pieces of history or Scripture that they think advocate the ideals they hold.
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Well, I have to admit that your point isn't that off either. After all how we use language changes and it is a matter of fact that we nowadays mostly use the term "conservative idea" as being synonymous with "conservative's idea". I just think that this use robs us of making out differences that seem tiny but are quite important.
And I'm quite sure that the Emperor at the moral reforms was selling it as a restoration rather than a revolution. :)
Last thing I really want to say: Yes Amarr think that you are basically born as one of the chosen: But my point with that is that they don't think you are born as chosen because of race, biology/genetics. Arguably people are born into a culture and in the case of the Amarr, the most direct and normal way to be chosen is to be born into Amarr culture. The Sani Sabik seem to be the first ones that naturalize the idea of being chosen by God (through association by birth, later on) and supplant it with savants that are destined to rule by nature. This is the point I want to make: An idea of superiority through race is a naturalistic idea which on the one hand allows in the first place for openening being a savant by birth to non-Amarr and on the other hand makes a God, who does the choosing, superfluous to the entire concept. If it is genetics that makes you a savant, then you don't need god to choose you for being righteous and in fear of God (or for belonging/being born into to a culture perpetuating those qualities).
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I referred to that part for the fact that it says that prior to Yonis, Ardishapur territories were bad places for non-TA bloodlines. Them opening up is something recent.
"... reforms pushed by Yonis have encouraged people of all races and bloodlines to seek religious enlightenment."
Ergo, prior to Yonis's reforms people of non-TA races and bloodlines were not encouraged (if not discouraged). For reforms to be instituted requires there to have been something to be changed.
One more thing: CCP (mis)uses 'race' to mean 'people of one of the four factions'. Accordingly, by CCP terminology, Udorians, Khanid and 'True Amarr' are Amarr by race. The undercategories are the 'bloodlines'.
So, it is quite probably that when Yonis "encouraged people of all races and bloodlines to seek religious enlightenment" that refered to the foreign races of Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar and their bloodlines.
I think we need to be aware of the way that CCP uses the terms 'race' and 'bloodline' and that they do so from a perspective of how their character creation is structured, rather than how these terms are used IRL.
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One more thing: CCP (mis)uses 'race' to mean 'people of one of the four factions'. Accordingly, by CCP terminology, Udorians, Khanid and 'True Amarr' are Amarr by race. The undercategories are the 'bloodlines'.
So, it is quite probably that when Yonis "encouraged people of all races and bloodlines to seek religious enlightenment" that refered to the foreign races of Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar and their bloodlines.
I think we need to be aware of the way that CCP uses the terms 'race' and 'bloodline' and that they do so from a perspective of how their character creation is structured, rather than how these terms are used IRL.
And to make it even more convoluted, the Gallente PF frequently makes reference to 'ethnicity.'
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Ahjup. I have come to expect CCP to not be consistent in what they do. ;)