Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Jace on 15 Mar 2014, 21:05
-
So I still haven't finished reading all of Source, but I thought it would be good to mention for those who don't have it: it finally ends the soft clone shenanigans:
A capsuleer killed out of her capsule might die permanently, and if not, she will lose much time in the gap between her backup's creation and her new cloning.
So what most people have interpreted over scattered PF and the words of CCP actors they just flat out said. Yes, you can have a backup and it be activated while outside of the pod. And yes, you will lose the memory. While most of us had already deciphered this from other sources of CCP folks, this gives it a nice easy way to provide the source.
-
This legitimizes backup clones, not necessarily soft clones. 'Soft' clones (as far as I've used them in RP) are a backup clone with a specific method of creation that is the opposite of the lethal 'hard' scan. That is, they're slow, require you to be knocked out for several hours and put in stasis of some form, and don't kill you.
I'll probably be sticking to soft cloning as being through an experimental, quasi-legal procedure that enjoys reasonable levels of success but has more risks than the average capsuleer might be willing to put themselves under. As primarily an anti-godmoding device it shouldn't really affect anyone. :p
-
I thought the soft clones ARE the backup clones. You go, get knocked out, get your memory backed up into another clone, a process which may take several hours, and then you wake up and do whatever.
Then when you die, clone gets activated and now has to do detective work to fill in the gap (assuming that you didn't send a pre-recorded message or you do not have any implants in your head that captures your final hours and sends to any media accessible by said soft clone) and possibly avenge you.
-
I thought the soft clones ARE the backup clones. You go, get knocked out, get your memory backed up into another clone, a process which may take several hours, and then you wake up and do whatever.
Then when you die, clone gets activated and now has to do detective work to fill in the gap (assuming that you didn't send a pre-recorded message or you do not have any implants in your head that captures your final hours and sends to any media accessible by said soft clone) and possibly avenge you.
That is a soft clone as I usually define it. But there's nothing stating that you can have a second copy made when you get a traditional hard scan done. It's implied that you can even intercept the transmission from scanned clone to fresh one by the stuff going on with Jamyl in TEA and presumably T1 (the latter of which I haven't read).
I think the implication in Source is that the 'hard' scan is used for both cases, and that while a 'soft' scan may be implied to exist, it's not the normal route.
-
This legitimizes backup clones, not necessarily soft clones. 'Soft' clones (as far as I've used them in RP) are a backup clone with a specific method of creation that is the opposite of the lethal 'hard' scan. That is, they're slow, require you to be knocked out for several hours and put in stasis of some form, and don't kill you.
I'll probably be sticking to soft cloning as being through an experimental, quasi-legal procedure that enjoys reasonable levels of success but has more risks than the average capsuleer might be willing to put themselves under. As primarily an anti-godmoding device it shouldn't really affect anyone. :p
What Elmund said? I'd always interpreted soft and backup as the same thing. If the method used the hard lethal scan, then you wouldn't lose the time - the fatal scan would have captured everything.
And if there wasn't a non-lethal way to scan, then how could a backup be made? The clones that the lethal ones go into are essentially blank DNA slates in order for the entire scan upon podding to be transferred, yes? It's not like a podding suddenly transfers to multiple clones, so how could you make a lethal backup? The lethal method is 1:1 is it not?
-
[nvm, misread ]
-
This legitimizes backup clones, not necessarily soft clones. 'Soft' clones (as far as I've used them in RP) are a backup clone with a specific method of creation that is the opposite of the lethal 'hard' scan. That is, they're slow, require you to be knocked out for several hours and put in stasis of some form, and don't kill you.
I'll probably be sticking to soft cloning as being through an experimental, quasi-legal procedure that enjoys reasonable levels of success but has more risks than the average capsuleer might be willing to put themselves under. As primarily an anti-godmoding device it shouldn't really affect anyone. :p
What Elmund said? I'd always interpreted soft and backup as the same thing. If the method used the hard lethal scan, then you wouldn't lose the time - the fatal scan would have captured everything.
And if there wasn't a non-lethal way to scan, then how could a backup be made? The clones that the lethal ones go into are essentially blank DNA slates in order for the entire scan upon podding to be transferred, yes? It's not like a podding suddenly transfers to multiple clones, so how could you make a lethal backup? The lethal method is 1:1 is it not?
It's simple data.
A lethal backup works in that you burn scan the brain, save that data on some medium while also using it to make a new clone. This could be done both while making a backup deliberately or after a pod cloning--in both cases, the data can be saved while also using it in the creation of a new clone.
Imagine scanning something. You have a picture, you put it in a scanner and scan it, then toss the original in a fire. You then have the data of that picture saved to your computer. You then print out a copy, but that doesn't delete the data from your PC unless you choose to manually delete it. If you lose the copy you printed, you can just use the data to print out a new one.
That pod cloning doesn't save the data in the transfer is a security mechanism to prevent unauthorized duplication. A capsuleer could easily decide to have it get saved instead of deleted for the purpose of having the ability to make backup clones. Or go in to a lab at any point and ask for a backup--having themselves burn scanned in the lab, transferred to a new clone, and the scan saved on harddrive for future need.
-
Huh, I apparently misread the tech stuff before. I always thought it was part of the tech that the data wasn't saved in transfer. Hum.
-
I don't recall the details of the process being explained at length anywhere, and yet I came away with an impression of lots of emphasis on the pretty much instantaneous nature of the scan and neural flashing process. I suspect it's to give mind/brain dualism a little nook to hide in.
-
I don't recall the details of the process being explained at length anywhere, and yet I came away with an impression of lots of emphasis on the pretty much instantaneous nature of the scan and neural flashing process. I suspect it's to give mind/brain dualism a little nook to hide in.
So far our only hint towards the data-stream aspect of cloning is a brief passage in the Chronicle Jita 4-4 (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jita_4-4_(Chronicle)) (it's near the very end); the passage comes in the context of a monologue by a capsuleer narrator and not an omniscient datadump, but it's still pointed to a lot as a hint that the stream could be 'split'.
Regarding the Source comment: I don't think it says anything at all here to point towards "softscanned" or "split-from-burn-scanned" cloning either way. It just says they will "lose much time in the gap between her backup's creation and her new cloning". 'Backup creation' doesn't mean any method here at all.
-
I don't recall the details of the process being explained at length anywhere, and yet I came away with an impression of lots of emphasis on the pretty much instantaneous nature of the scan and neural flashing process. I suspect it's to give mind/brain dualism a little nook to hide in.
So far our only hint towards the data-stream aspect of cloning is a brief passage in the Chronicle Jita 4-4 (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jita_4-4_(Chronicle)) (it's near the very end); the passage comes in the context of a monologue by a capsuleer narrator and not an omniscient datadump, but it's still pointed to a lot as a hint that the stream could be 'split'.
Regarding the Source comment: I don't think it says anything at all here to point towards "softscanned" or "split-from-burn-scanned" cloning either way. It just says they will "lose much time in the gap between her backup's creation and her new cloning". 'Backup creation' doesn't mean any method here at all.
It was burnscanning to make a backup that I somehow missed previously. I always assumed burnscan was 1:1
-
At least we can say that backup clones exist in some form at least. That gives my 'lets clone everyone' RP a bit more credibility.
-
Backup clones have existed for years. They're in that "New Frontiers" mission chain. And they have memory gaps.
It's always been about the practicality, rather than the possibility. Clone vat machines, and the technicians that service them, and the biotechnicians that construct the clones and maintain them in readiness, these are not cheap and plentiful, never have been, unlikely they ever will. If it takes a team of say 20 people to maintain a backup clone of 1 individual all year round, then there's never going to be clone backups for everyone.
-
I always saw it as more of an economic bottleneck then an engineering one. You can clone everyone, its just expensive and there's not a lot of money in it.
-
I don't recall the details of the process being explained at length anywhere, and yet I came away with an impression of lots of emphasis on the pretty much instantaneous nature of the scan and neural flashing process. I suspect it's to give mind/brain dualism a little nook to hide in.
So far our only hint towards the data-stream aspect of cloning is a brief passage in the Chronicle Jita 4-4 (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jita_4-4_(Chronicle)) (it's near the very end); the passage comes in the context of a monologue by a capsuleer narrator and not an omniscient datadump, but it's still pointed to a lot as a hint that the stream could be 'split'.
Regarding the Source comment: I don't think it says anything at all here to point towards "softscanned" or "split-from-burn-scanned" cloning either way. It just says they will "lose much time in the gap between her backup's creation and her new cloning". 'Backup creation' doesn't mean any method here at all.
It was burnscanning to make a backup that I somehow missed previously. I always assumed burnscan was 1:1
By default the burning scanner is linked to molecular receptors in the clone brain, which is what makes it an instantaneous one-to-one transmission from neural scanner to brain. But again, it's just data. There's nothing stopping someone from implementing a 'middleman', having the burn scan instead entangled with a separate router box in a computer which saves a copy of the scan before sending it to the clone's receptor molecules.
-
Regarding the Source comment: I don't think it says anything at all here to point towards "softscanned" or "split-from-burn-scanned" cloning either way. It just says they will "lose much time in the gap between her backup's creation and her new cloning". 'Backup creation' doesn't mean any method here at all.
Exactly. The implication is solely that "Backup Clones Are a Thing," but no further than that - the way they're made is left open to interpretation. Which, as usual, means that in the meantime until CCP decides to expound on it, it's up to us to decide on a personal basis whether we want to discard or keep the original sheet of paper that we're running through the Xerox, to borrow Samira's analogy.
Predictably, I'll be going with the "keep the original" path. :P
-
Yeah, I get the distinction. I had misread some of the technology stuff previously. Little of my arcs ever involve clone stuff, so it had never been that high priority for me to figure out for my characters. But I get the distinction folks are stating.
-
Frankly, I think that this deliberate ambiguity is a good thing. In my personal opinion, right now we don't need any more expounding on this particular subject; the practical parameters for RP are clear (backups are a thing, but they still require the bulky scanning device) while not yet stifling people who prefer to run in either direction with particulars.
-
The last time this particular topic came up some people said they didn't like the idea of soft clones because they made the setting less grim.
I've always considered jump clones fairly firm proof that you can take a non-destructive scan. The idea that every time you jump clone the body you leave behind has to have a new brain installed makes very little sense to me, especially as the cyber stays intact.
However, consider this. If the body you left is still alive, then on returning to it you are overwriting the mind-state that was there when you left with the latest version. In effect you are murdering a previous iteration of yourself.
That's fairly grimdark all by itself.
-
The last time this particular topic came up some people said they didn't like the idea of soft clones because they made the setting less grim.
I've always considered jump clones fairly firm proof that you can take a non-destructive scan. The idea that every time you jump clone the body you leave behind has to have a new brain installed makes very little sense to me, especially as the cyber stays intact.
However, consider this. If the body you left is still alive, then on returning to it you are overwriting the mind-state that was there when you left with the latest version. In effect you are murdering a previous iteration of yourself.
That's fairly grimdark all by itself.
CCP originally had stuff about soft-cloning (as typically defined by the playerbase) as being a Thing in the cloning and AD&D articles on the wiki. At some point they removed it and added some stuff about jump clones, saying a jump clone was essentially little more than a lethal hard scan. Their explanation for the implants sticking around? "Oh, we just pick them out of the head afterward and shove them into a fresh clone for when you come back." :psyccp:
Talk about fucking retarded - I'd buy that if we could pull implants out without destroying them and save them for later use.
I had always gone with JCs being a literal transfer and overwrite in RP prior to that. Since those tweaks to the wiki, though, I just never ever mention JCing, because fuck dealing with the herp-derp that that mess is.
-
As a curiosity, seeing as Bay tends to be doing more ground work than space work RP-wise, what is the ruling on black tech from the government etc?
I am not terribly familiar with what all counts as 'godmodding' beyond something like 'lol I dodged your bullet because [reasons]'
In this instance, routine backup implant that circumvents memory loss on death outside of pod.
-
In that case, I'd say a no go. It's the thing that makes DUST implants unique. Also, it fails to take into account that cloning so far either requires A) a fast but lethal hard scan or B ) an excruciatingly slow soft scan (and B is currently up in the air as far as canon goes).
A routine backup implant just negates all of that. Also, thematically, we're supposed to be vulnerable outside the pod. Whether permanent death or memory loss, being killed outside the pod is supposed to be a dangerous thing that we don't want to do.
Basically, if you want "perfect" out of pod cloning, then going DUST soldier rather than a capsuleer is the better route for that.
-
The last time this particular topic came up some people said they didn't like the idea of soft clones because they made the setting less grim.
I've always considered jump clones fairly firm proof that you can take a non-destructive scan. The idea that every time you jump clone the body you leave behind has to have a new brain installed makes very little sense to me, especially as the cyber stays intact.
However, consider this. If the body you left is still alive, then on returning to it you are overwriting the mind-state that was there when you left with the latest version. In effect you are murdering a previous iteration of yourself.
That's fairly grimdark all by itself.
CCP originally had stuff about soft-cloning (as typically defined by the playerbase) as being a Thing in the cloning and AD&D articles on the wiki. At some point they removed it and added some stuff about jump clones, saying a jump clone was essentially little more than a lethal hard scan. Their explanation for the implants sticking around? "Oh, we just pick them out of the head afterward and shove them into a fresh clone for when you come back." :psyccp:
Talk about fucking retarded - I'd buy that if we could pull implants out without destroying them and save them for later use.
I had always gone with JCs being a literal transfer and overwrite in RP prior to that. Since those tweaks to the wiki, though, I just never ever mention JCing, because fuck dealing with the herp-derp that that mess is.
Jump cloning has always been more or less the same than a hardscan iirc. Probably a lot vague and all, but I don't remember it being otherwise.
However, I have been puzzled a long time by that implant issue, that you keep at each jumpclone where it is well known that implants have to be destroyed when removed.
I came to the - stretched, perhaps - conclusion that maybe, implants can be safely removed when the individual is not "here" anymore. Otherwise, they break. I don't have any better explanation.
-
I came to the - stretched, perhaps - conclusion that maybe, implants can be safely removed when the individual is not "here" anymore. Otherwise, they break. I don't have any better explanation.
That's how I view it. It's easier to safely remove the implants when you don't have to worry about destroying the brain in the process.
-
In that case, I'd say a no go. It's the thing that makes DUST implants unique. Also, it fails to take into account that cloning so far either requires A) a fast but lethal hard scan or B ) an excruciatingly slow soft scan (and B is currently up in the air as far as canon goes).
A routine backup implant just negates all of that. Also, thematically, we're supposed to be vulnerable outside the pod. Whether permanent death or memory loss, being killed outside the pod is supposed to be a dangerous thing that we don't want to do.
Basically, if you want "perfect" out of pod cloning, then going DUST soldier rather than a capsuleer is the better route for that.
Hmm. I am working on developing Bay's backstory still, and that's why I'm asking. All of what I've written about her is pre-capsuleer(baseliner?) stuff so far, and well, she gets access to all the fun toys and tech even before getting turned into a capsuleer (reason for going egger currently still not developed), and, with that in mind, I would expect her to get all the cool toys in space as well, including non-civilian clone techs. The trouble is finding out where the line lays between black tech that is acceptable in terms of lore and what isn't.
-
I came to the - stretched, perhaps - conclusion that maybe, implants can be safely removed when the individual is not "here" anymore. Otherwise, they break. I don't have any better explanation.
That's how I view it. It's easier to safely remove the implants when you don't have to worry about destroying the brain in the process.
Well that makes sense. Except for one minor detail.
Your medical clone contract is priced by the skill points the clone needs to be able to hold. Therefore it would seem that the more complex the brain substitute being used the more expensive the clone. If, every time we jump clone they destroy the brain, why aren't we paying a good chunk of med clone renewal costs with each jump? Especially if they have to go to the effort of removing and then reinstating cybernetics.
It makes no sense at all that the brain is destroyed on jumping out of the body.
-
I came to the - stretched, perhaps - conclusion that maybe, implants can be safely removed when the individual is not "here" anymore. Otherwise, they break. I don't have any better explanation.
That's how I view it. It's easier to safely remove the implants when you don't have to worry about destroying the brain in the process.
Well that makes sense. Except for one minor detail.
Your medical clone contract is priced by the skill points the clone needs to be able to hold. Therefore it would seem that the more complex the brain substitute being used the more expensive the clone. If, every time we jump clone they destroy the brain, why aren't we paying a good chunk of med clone renewal costs with each jump? Especially if they have to go to the effort of removing and then reinstating cybernetics.
It makes no sense at all that the brain is destroyed on jumping out of the body.
More likely the advances in clone tech has gone so far that you could now sleep in the CRU and scan, upload and download without killing said clone.
-
As a curiosity, seeing as Bay tends to be doing more ground work than space work RP-wise, what is the ruling on black tech from the government etc?
I am not terribly familiar with what all counts as 'godmodding' beyond something like 'lol I dodged your bullet because [reasons]'
In this instance, routine backup implant that circumvents memory loss on death outside of pod.
Its possible, though no known devices like that are known to exist in canon besides the dust tech. My character has been RPing attempting to develop a technology to do this for a few months now. Its conceivable, it could exist tech-wise in with the rest of the lore, but honestly? It doesn't need to. Just suck it up and take the time loss, it makes the RP more interesting. If your character is really really really paranoid, you could say she gets a backup made each night as she sleeps. I imagine regardless of how you cut it, dying is likely to be a fairly traumatic experience regardless of how you cut it. You might not want to remember your death.
-
In that case, I'd say a no go. It's the thing that makes DUST implants unique. Also, it fails to take into account that cloning so far either requires A) a fast but lethal hard scan or B ) an excruciatingly slow soft scan (and B is currently up in the air as far as canon goes).
A routine backup implant just negates all of that. Also, thematically, we're supposed to be vulnerable outside the pod. Whether permanent death or memory loss, being killed outside the pod is supposed to be a dangerous thing that we don't want to do.
Basically, if you want "perfect" out of pod cloning, then going DUST soldier rather than a capsuleer is the better route for that.
Hmm. I am working on developing Bay's backstory still, and that's why I'm asking. All of what I've written about her is pre-capsuleer(baseliner?) stuff so far, and well, she gets access to all the fun toys and tech even before getting turned into a capsuleer (reason for going egger currently still not developed), and, with that in mind, I would expect her to get all the cool toys in space as well, including non-civilian clone techs. The trouble is finding out where the line lays between black tech that is acceptable in terms of lore and what isn't.
I generally take this approach: Does it exist in the canon, if so, how rare is it? How likely is it that my rich capsuleer character could get a hold of it? What would it end up costing in real isk value?
By answering those questions about a given technology, its pretty easy to see what is okay to use and what isn't. I'd avoid becoming too River Tam though.
-
In that case, I'd say a no go. It's the thing that makes DUST implants unique. Also, it fails to take into account that cloning so far either requires A) a fast but lethal hard scan or B ) an excruciatingly slow soft scan (and B is currently up in the air as far as canon goes).
A routine backup implant just negates all of that. Also, thematically, we're supposed to be vulnerable outside the pod. Whether permanent death or memory loss, being killed outside the pod is supposed to be a dangerous thing that we don't want to do.
Basically, if you want "perfect" out of pod cloning, then going DUST soldier rather than a capsuleer is the better route for that.
Hmm. I am working on developing Bay's backstory still, and that's why I'm asking. All of what I've written about her is pre-capsuleer(baseliner?) stuff so far, and well, she gets access to all the fun toys and tech even before getting turned into a capsuleer (reason for going egger currently still not developed), and, with that in mind, I would expect her to get all the cool toys in space as well, including non-civilian clone techs. The trouble is finding out where the line lays between black tech that is acceptable in terms of lore and what isn't.
I generally take this approach: Does it exist in the canon, if so, how rare is it? How likely is it that my rich capsuleer character could get a hold of it? What would it end up costing in real isk value?
By answering those questions about a given technology, its pretty easy to see what is okay to use and what isn't. I'd avoid becoming too River Tam though.
The reason I am asking is that I'm not overly familiar with all the tech available for clones. I'm working on reading the lore, but between being a bit busy and the sheer volume, I was hoping I might be able to get a hand up from people with a bit more knowledge :)
In this case though, it's not so much 'what can I afford' as 'what is available to group a, b and c'
I do understand what you mean about Tam as well, and I'm hoping I don't end up putting her too close to that, but she's not exactly average either. Most of her flaws are mental, so :)
Thank you for the help :)
-
Basically, Bay, the tech you're asking about/for doesn't really exist. DUST mercs are a special case where the implant that handles it is installed directly onto the brainstem - it's like another lobe of the brain.
And even if the empires had that sort of tech, it would be something kept so secret we wouldn't know about it anyway - let alone have access to it. Especially anyone who might pass capsuleer training - because as soon as ONE capsuleer has it, it's only a matter of time before we ALL have it. And that would be baaaad.
-
I came to the - stretched, perhaps - conclusion that maybe, implants can be safely removed when the individual is not "here" anymore. Otherwise, they break. I don't have any better explanation.
That's how I view it. It's easier to safely remove the implants when you don't have to worry about destroying the brain in the process.
Well that makes sense. Except for one minor detail.
Your medical clone contract is priced by the skill points the clone needs to be able to hold. Therefore it would seem that the more complex the brain substitute being used the more expensive the clone. If, every time we jump clone they destroy the brain, why aren't we paying a good chunk of med clone renewal costs with each jump? Especially if they have to go to the effort of removing and then reinstating cybernetics.
It makes no sense at all that the brain is destroyed on jumping out of the body.
It is possible that jump cloning doesn't kill the first body, but puts it in a frozen state. It may be safer to assume that since otherwise we have to deal with implant removal issues as well as clone costs everytime we jump clone.
Maybe the hardscan doesn't necessarily kill. Iirc it was stated that the capsule killed the capsuleer to make sure he/she dies. Not the neural hardscan per se.
What does Source says about that ?
-
I came to the - stretched, perhaps - conclusion that maybe, implants can be safely removed when the individual is not "here" anymore. Otherwise, they break. I don't have any better explanation.
That's how I view it. It's easier to safely remove the implants when you don't have to worry about destroying the brain in the process.
Well that makes sense. Except for one minor detail.
Your medical clone contract is priced by the skill points the clone needs to be able to hold. Therefore it would seem that the more complex the brain substitute being used the more expensive the clone. If, every time we jump clone they destroy the brain, why aren't we paying a good chunk of med clone renewal costs with each jump? Especially if they have to go to the effort of removing and then reinstating cybernetics.
It makes no sense at all that the brain is destroyed on jumping out of the body.
It is possible that jump cloning doesn't kill the first body, but puts it in a frozen state. It may be safer to assume that since otherwise we have to deal with implant removal issues as well as clone costs everytime we jump clone.
Maybe the hardscan doesn't necessarily kill. Iirc it was stated that the capsule killed the capsuleer to make sure he/she dies. Not the neural hardscan per se.
What does Source says about that ?
Source says very little about jump cloning, save that capsuleers can and do jump clone into bodies with different races and genders than they actually are. So Source confirms the 'jump clone to alt' lore that's come about in True Stories, and also canon-validates Saede's male clone.
As far as the burn scan... no, the burn scan itself doesn't strictly kill you, but it lobotomizes the original so badly that they become a vegetable. Fact is, when you burn scan, the original body is as good as done. It's either dead, or it's a vegetable. The capsule just ensures the former.
-
Maybe... I don't remember well what was exactly described in former PF. I just remember pretty much clearly that the lethal injection was done specifically to kill the clone to avoid getting two possible versions / a fork of the same person.
Also, even if it was not strictly PF, Torfifrans already hinted several times when they were still developing Incarna that they had plan to allow changing bloodlines between various jumpclones.