Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Makoto Priano on 05 Mar 2014, 16:45
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Hey folks! Made-up word time! Canonicity!
So. EVE True Stories has introduced alts as an actual fluff mechanic in EVE, using a mechanism comparable to jump clones. The idea, it appears, is that while the neural element of various clones must be compatible, the physical form isn't fixed and so players/pilots may jump between different-looking bodies as they like.
Without getting into the ugly story mess of the Broker and impersonating whomever, however, it seems fairly reasonable that cosmetic changes between different bodies are viable without much expense, though presumably creation of a false identity would require some handwavium, explanation of SP differences (or quietly ignoring those as game mechanics that are hard to explain), and wanton bribery of CONCORD.
Alternatively, we could assume that this occupies a space comparable to the Star Wars Extended Universe, which is semi-canon -- whereas the movies are canon, novelizations of the movies are canon, and the mass of books are canon where they don't directly contradict what we know from the canon of the movies.
Thoughts?
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The different pilot records (School, ancestry, etc.), SP, etc., all seem rather deal breaking to me. But as I haven't read any of the True Stories nor intend to, my opinion might not be relevant. I'm not entirely sure if they set it up with anything besides massive handwavium.
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This is not actually an entirely new concept in EVE; the old chronicle One Man Too Many (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/One_Man_Too_Many_(Chronicle)) deals with an assassination performed with the assassin using someone else's body (he is given away by a mannerism failure).
That said, I still think the EVE: True Stories (and this issue of jump clones and alts in particular) should be regarded as largely noncanon depictions, for two reasons: One, they apparently include plenty of other meta-stuff that isn't really well-suited for in-character writing, and two, the aforementioned chronicle suggests this kind of thing is truly rare - the realm of master assassins and high-level political intrigue. The idea that anyone with the jump clone skill can do it anyway now seems rather silly to me.
Also, what Jace said.
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Before, greater lorefiends than I have told me in full earnesty that all CCP material should be considered canon even if it is dissonant, contradictory with earlier materials, or just balls-out insane, so welcome to the new status quo, I guess.
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Mm. I think Torfi had said something about how they'd let Dark Horse take a somewhat free hand, use dramatic license, and so on-- so I'm definitely ranking True Stories on the lower end of the spectrum of canonicity.
That said, Esna, I'm of the mind that the chronicle you're citing actually is relevant-- while Joe Baseliner probably won't even have the funds for a clone contract or much augmentation, even poor capsuleers are still quite wealthy by lore terms. We already have at-will cloning and augmentation, and substantial financial reserves-- so some skullduggery between capsuleers after bribing CONCORD a bunch seems not unreasonable.
But yeah.
Personally, my thought is that priority goes Source > Chronicles/EVE proper > TonyG > True Stories
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Mm. I think Torfi had said something about how they'd let Dark Horse take a somewhat free hand, use dramatic license, and so on-- so I'm definitely ranking True Stories on the lower end of the spectrum of canonicity.
That said, Esna, I'm of the mind that the chronicle you're citing actually is relevant-- while Joe Baseliner probably won't even have the funds for a clone contract or much augmentation, even poor capsuleers are still quite wealthy by lore terms. We already have at-will cloning and augmentation, and substantial financial reserves-- so some skullduggery between capsuleers after bribing CONCORD a bunch seems not unreasonable.
But yeah.
Personally, my thought is that priority goes Source > Chronicles/EVE proper > TonyG > True Stories
A player bribing CONCORD doesn't seem unreasonable to you?
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Wardecs. Independent capsuleer Sanshas, Blood Raiders, Guristas, Serpentis, Angels. Nullification of negative security status by providing a few tags.
CONCORD isn't exactly a clean organization. We don't need to go full-on grimdark to assume there are ways to 'certify' a false identity, provided adequate payment is provided.
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That is a far cry from bribing to falsify records. In my mind, that is under the same category as "I am the long lost song of Falek!"
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p.s. edited post about the time you responded with additional notes.
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p.s. edited post about the time you responded with additional notes.
I wasn't questioning the cleanliness of CONCORD, merely the godmodeyness (< is a word) of bribing an NPC entity to the point of explaining away huge game mechanics (Character Sheet).
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Yes it is canon.
Not because someone wrote a comic about it, not because CCP says so, but because it happened in the game and forms part of EVE's actual history. It's something our characters talk about, it's something we all know about, and it's something that should not be ignored.
Did the events happen the way the comics claim they did? No, of course not. Why should they? They happened the way they actually happened.
The comics can be considered IC as exactly what they are OOC. They are fanciful retellings of a major part of New Eden's history. Just like in reality, stories as they are told and told again and told again take on a life of their own, adding and removing details (sometimes important parts) for artistic value, to make the story interesting. These comic retellings of the stories are just that. Artistic versions of something that actually happened.
In short, the best way to consider the comics as a source of canon is by realizing they are not historical textbooks, or chat logs, or accurate at all. They are just one of the many versions of a wildly popular tale of exploits done by capsuleers.
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Kind of what Kat said. It's important to make a distinction between canon and prime fiction.
CCP had no hand in or influence on the actual story as written in the comic, so they are not PF - there is no lore, technological, cultural or otherwise, to be derived from here as "the word of god" so to speak.
That said, the events did happen, so in some fashion they are canon. However, they're about as canon as a fictional movie based on real events. Or, considering the medium, a movie based on a book based on real events.
I think the best way to treat the comics themselves is as exactly what they are - fanciful comic books based on events that the authors (ostensibly baseliners, possibly even capsuleer-worshippers) have absolutely zero fucking clue on the details of. Facts will be twisted and misinterpreted, and completely false information will be presented as truth for the sake of artistic/dramatic license.
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Prime fiction! That's the term I was forgetting. Yes. Not PF, but in the canon, if at a distance.
The comparison I was thinking of while walking back to the office: it's not science, it's like science news reporting. Correlation becomes causation, distant possibilities are presented like they'll be possible immediately, and so on.
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Yes, under that terminology, it certainly is 'canon'. I was assuming we were talking about the exact details, more in line with what's being called PF here.
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Yes, under that terminology, it certainly is 'canon'. I was assuming we were talking about the exact details, more in line with what's being called PF here.
Same.
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Then no, it's not Prime Fiction.
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I say if a baseliner wants to watch dramatisation of particularly dastardly capsuleer deeds on their holoreels, what they watch would be something like what is portrayed in Eve: True Stories. Obviously us capsuleers knew how it really went down, but well, why spoil a good story to the baseliners?
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With regards to the true stories stuff. I don't think there's an internal precedent set for it in terms of whether it's considered "canon". Personally I feel it's more like an embellishment of the truth and a dramatization of actual events, sort of like a story handed from person to person that becomes a little twisted and exaggerated as it's passed on, rather than a hard representation of fact.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4313319#post4313319
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What Samira posted and Falcon said. The 'stories' are canon, as in they are stories that most definitely exist and are likely told in capsuleer circles, especially in the training programmes to full free captain capsuleer status.
Whether the content is 100% faithful or even feasible, who knows? I kinda like that element of things - I find that seeing a world through a clouded narrative lens can really help in grounding a character in the culture of a place, even if they have to pick and choose what may or may not be gross embellishment. When we're talking about immortal space captains who never die, embellishment can get very strange indeed.
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As for True Stories, it's an interpretation and dramatization.
After all, the 'canon' when it comes to the stories of players is what actually happened in all particulars and details in the game. This seems to me to be an absolutely essential aspect of EVE.
To answer the alts question - I don't see a change from the basic position: it's up to you guys to decide who and what your alternative characters are or represent.
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I like that. Can Delegate Zero become the general interface for 'not pissing people off but still managing to say something'? That'd be a nice change from CCP's high speed supply of the D that they give to the community at present.
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Canonicity of EVE True Stories? For me, I stopped reading it as EVE canon and began reading it as just another space opera style comic when it became clear their capsuleers aren't actually in a capsule at all - at least not until they automagically jump into one at the exact moment their ship 'splodes.
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...it's up to you guys to decide who and what your alternative characters are or represent.
That's dangerous wording. This could be used to defend some pretty ridiculous things with alts.
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Canonicity of EVE True Stories? For me, I stopped reading it as EVE canon and began reading it as just another space opera style comic when it became clear their capsuleers aren't actually in a capsule at all - at least not until they automagically jump into one at the exact moment their ship 'splodes.
More or less this.
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...it's up to you guys to decide who and what your alternative characters are or represent.
That's dangerous wording. This could be used to defend some pretty ridiculous things with alts.
It's no different from saying it is up to us to decide what our main characters are or represent. The same common-sense restrictions apply to alts.
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Wardecs. Independent capsuleer Sanshas, Blood Raiders, Guristas, Serpentis, Angels. Nullification of negative security status by providing a few tags.
CONCORD isn't exactly a clean organization. We don't need to go full-on grimdark to assume there are ways to 'certify' a false identity, provided adequate payment is provided.
I don't see how wardecs have to be bribery.
Independent pirate capsuleers might also clone outside CONCORD jurisdiction and use pirated capsules or whatever.
Nullification of negative sec status is done by proving you worked to redeem your crimes. We may argue that it sounds a bit too easy, but I don't see how it points to corruption.
That is a new fad I have seen emerging among players over the last years, where CONCORD was believed to be full of virtue, and now full of bloated corruption. Maybe it is, maybe not, but tbh I would rather like to have more CONCORD lore at times.
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PF suggests that CONCORD is pure. Whether our characters believe that or not is up to them.
As far as the DED goes, they are incorruptible. That's the exact word used by PF, handed down from the mountain on a stone tablet:
The DED ships are usually equipped with the latest and greatest in surveillance technology, so their service is always a great support for customs patrols, especially because they are incorruptible.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Directive_Enforcement_Department_(Chronicle) (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Directive_Enforcement_Department_(Chronicle))
The rest of CONCORD is up for debate, and the Inner Circle and 'embassy' style place where ambassadors meet has been shown in the books to be a bit less than effective, but the DED itself is pure as a whistle.
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They are not pure as a whistle. They just have strict guidelines on behavior that results in the expulsion of anyone who breaches them, but they aren't divinely immune to corruption.
But no large organization is without its informants. And the DED, despite the extensive background checks, personality evaluations, and constant surveillance of new and experienced employees, was not without their own. With so much power concentrated there, entities both malicious and neutral went to great lengths to infiltrate the law enforcement agency. The DED quietly dealt with the moles they were able to catch. But with espionage at this level, where the stakes are so high and the potential for damage so great, no one could ever be certain that every spy was purged.
Tantoseisen Kakkichi—the Chief of Internal Security at the DED—knew that other spies existed within the agency. He had been reviewing disinformation items designed to expose potential operatives when the Jovian contacted him. Midway through the conversation, Tantoseisen started believing that he was being set up for a disinformation play as well.
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Yes, the right thing to do. Tantoseisen nodded his head slightly, not saying anything. He often passed along information about criminals who escaped the punishment of CONCORD to Mattias, always in secret. The DED, as powerful as it was, lacked the resources to chase felons past Empire borders. Justice should have no bounds, the brothers always said. Mattias would be the instrument of CONCORD where the Tantoseisen and the DED could not tread.
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“There are certain elements within the DED which stand to benefit directly from this information, Commander. Some would almost certainly use it to advance their own personal incentives, rather than promote the cause of the greater good, as the DED mission statement specifies.“
http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/short-stories/forsaken-ruins/
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I've taken CONCORDs angle to be that they're efficient, hard to corrupt, and essentially do things by the book - it's just that the book has a few rules in it that might not mesh all that well with the worldview of a naïve capsuleer who thinks that CONCORD is there for their protection.
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They are not pure as a whistle. They just have strict guidelines on behavior that results in the expulsion of anyone who breaches them, but they aren't divinely immune to corruption.
But no large organization is without its informants. And the DED, despite the extensive background checks, personality evaluations, and constant surveillance of new and experienced employees, was not without their own. With so much power concentrated there, entities both malicious and neutral went to great lengths to infiltrate the law enforcement agency. The DED quietly dealt with the moles they were able to catch. But with espionage at this level, where the stakes are so high and the potential for damage so great, no one could ever be certain that every spy was purged.
Tantoseisen Kakkichi—the Chief of Internal Security at the DED—knew that other spies existed within the agency. He had been reviewing disinformation items designed to expose potential operatives when the Jovian contacted him. Midway through the conversation, Tantoseisen started believing that he was being set up for a disinformation play as well.
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Yes, the right thing to do. Tantoseisen nodded his head slightly, not saying anything. He often passed along information about criminals who escaped the punishment of CONCORD to Mattias, always in secret. The DED, as powerful as it was, lacked the resources to chase felons past Empire borders. Justice should have no bounds, the brothers always said. Mattias would be the instrument of CONCORD where the Tantoseisen and the DED could not tread.
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“There are certain elements within the DED which stand to benefit directly from this information, Commander. Some would almost certainly use it to advance their own personal incentives, rather than promote the cause of the greater good, as the DED mission statement specifies.“
http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/short-stories/forsaken-ruins/
Of course they are not immune. But one example doesn't hint at a generality of bloated corruption, especially since here it points at a few moles and corrupted agents, where wardecs and the likes are bureaucratic mechanisms involving the whole CONCORD administrative procedures.
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The issue isn't whether it is theoretically possible, it is whether it seems reasonable for a player to write explicit CONCORD corruption into their backstory.
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Of course they are not immune. But one example doesn't hint at a generality of bloated corruption, especially since here it points at a few moles and corrupted agents, where wardecs and the likes are bureaucratic mechanisms involving the whole CONCORD administrative procedures.
I was responding to Katrina, who was claiming that they are completely incorruptible because one article says so.
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Fair enough. I probably misinterpreted it. Perhaps the article I linked was saying the DED as a whole is incorruptible, rather than the individual agents. Systemic widespread corruption is simply not possible, for whatever reason.
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You shouldn't care so much about canonicity.
Or rather: you should care as much about canonicity as you do in real life.
What is canon in real life? Wikipedia, what you read in your history books, what your priest tells you, what your parents told you, what you see on YouTube?
Just apply the same principle to EVE, and you'll have a lot less to worry about. EVE is not a religious order after all, its a virtual world.
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You shouldn't care so much about canonicity.
Or rather: you should care as much about canonicity as you do in real life.
What is canon in real life? Wikipedia, what you read in your history books, what your priest tells you, what your parents told you, what you see on YouTube?
Just apply the same principle to EVE, and you'll have a lot less to worry about. EVE is not a religious order after all, its a virtual world.
Agree. Just like I tell my kids when reading history books or news articles, consider the author and the point of view/agenda they may be trying to push. [Eve source comment moved to that thread]
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Also, just as any egregious disregard of what should or should not be possible according to the PF will be rejected (and therefor policed) by the RP community so will a relatively minor transgression be allowed in the pursuit of good stories and fun. PF is not complete and sometimes unclear or outright contradictory but it is also like the Pirate Code, more like guidelines than actual rules. Nobody will sweat the mistakes that don't matter and everybody will help to correct the ones that do. In the end it's more about fun than adhering to an absolute and unquestionable canon.
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It's all relative. To some fun is the opposite of following the canon. To some others, fun is found in following the canon. vOv
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It's all relative. To some fun is the opposite of following the canon. To some others, fun is found in following the canon. vOv
This sounds so Amarrian.