Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: V. Gesakaarin on 23 Jan 2014, 18:49
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So on considering the Caldari I'm curious as to other people's thoughts on the nature of the Caldari State's described militarist attitudes.
At a basic level it appears that the Caldari State is very much like the Prussia or Israel of New Eden in that you've got a very small nation in terms of population surrounded by far larger powers that it considers potential threats to its survival and interests. As such the belief it seems is that a strong military is the only means to continued existence when faced with the "existential threats" the other three major powers represent. This can be seen in the fact that the State maintains that citizens have to remain ready to be mobilized or conscripted into active military service in addition to maintaining a standing military through the Caldari Navy and the Megacorporate PMC's that together appears that the State maintains a far higher percentage of its population under arms in comparison to any other major faction.
So I wonder what effect this has on Caldari society and worldviews. Even just looking at the Caldari concepts of meritocracy it has a deep military angle to it. Any truly effective military will tend to appoint and promote people on the basis of talent and ability above any other factors and this concept seems to have become ingrained with the Caldari not only due to a century of war with the Federation but because even prior to that the Caldari were busy fighting each other in internecine conflicts.
In many respects the Caldari seem very much the most conflict-oriented and militarist culture and society in New Eden given their history. It's like there's this latent acceptance that war is just part of life with the Caldari. The highly competitive nature of Megacorporate capitalism; the love of risk and gambling; gladiatorial sports; violent splinterz matches -- they all seem to point to a culture that thrives on conflict and adversity as being part of life.
Now granted these are some vague initial thoughts, but how do others see it?
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By and large, I would agree with your initial impression. The PF regarding conscription and mobilization are particularly telling, even the CMEF flavor that they are conscripted regardless of any prior megacorp responsibilities.
While many people get tired of comparing the Caldari to Japan, I think it is worth noting that the spiritual aspects of Caldari are much more in-line with Japan than Israel or Prussia. Something so animist and balanced as the Way coexisting with such a militaristic society leads to some interesting nuance - especially when also combined with the non-luxury/aesthetic aspect of Caldari culture. The other issue with the Israeli correlation is how small the Israeli military actually is. They have power via technology from the USA, not through their own military might. Prussia is a better indicator - I've always imagined Austrian-Japanese, myself. All of that said, I think it can be detrimental to attach too much significance to real-world similarities like the RP community does so frequently.
I suppose my point is: the militarism is certainly there and fairly overriding, but I think the beauty of it is manifested when you take into account the Way, aestheticism, etc.
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By and large, I would agree with your initial impression. The PF regarding conscription and mobilization are particularly telling, even the CMEF flavor that they are conscripted regardless of any prior megacorp responsibilities.
While many people get tired of comparing the Caldari to Japan, I think it is worth noting that the spiritual aspects of Caldari are much more in-line with Japan than Israel or Prussia. Something so animist and balanced as the Way coexisting with such a militaristic society leads to some interesting nuance - especially when also combined with the non-luxury/aesthetic aspect of Caldari culture. The other issue with the Israeli correlation is how small the Israeli military actually is. They have power via technology from the USA, not through their own military might. Prussia is a better indicator - I've always imagined Austrian-Japanese, myself. All of that said, I think it can be detrimental to attach too much significance to real-world similarities like the RP community does so frequently.
I suppose my point is: the militarism is certainly there and fairly overriding, but I think the beauty of it is manifested when you take into account the Way, aestheticism, etc.
I used the example of Prussia and Israel not to draw direct parallels but rather a comparison of having a similar scenario in being a small nation surrounded by larger hostile or potentially hostile neighbours creating a particular worldview of being constantly under threat thus needing a strong and effective military to ensure survival.
That being said while people do draw parallels with Caldari and Japan, I've always found that it tends to focus overmuch on the romanticized notions of bushido and honour and never on how the martial concepts of bushido had the defeated at Sekigahara beheaded to create a pile of skulls; the militarism of Imperial Japan or the slaughter in Nanking.
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By and large, I would agree with your initial impression. The PF regarding conscription and mobilization are particularly telling, even the CMEF flavor that they are conscripted regardless of any prior megacorp responsibilities.
While many people get tired of comparing the Caldari to Japan, I think it is worth noting that the spiritual aspects of Caldari are much more in-line with Japan than Israel or Prussia. Something so animist and balanced as the Way coexisting with such a militaristic society leads to some interesting nuance - especially when also combined with the non-luxury/aesthetic aspect of Caldari culture. The other issue with the Israeli correlation is how small the Israeli military actually is. They have power via technology from the USA, not through their own military might. Prussia is a better indicator - I've always imagined Austrian-Japanese, myself. All of that said, I think it can be detrimental to attach too much significance to real-world similarities like the RP community does so frequently.
I suppose my point is: the militarism is certainly there and fairly overriding, but I think the beauty of it is manifested when you take into account the Way, aestheticism, etc.
I used the example of Prussia and Israel not to draw direct parallels but rather a comparison of having a similar scenario in being a small nation surrounded by larger hostile or potentially hostile neighbours creating a particular worldview of being constantly under threat thus needing a strong and effective military to ensure survival.
That being said while people do draw parallels with Caldari and Japan, I've always found that it tends to focus overmuch on the romanticized notions of bushido and honour and never on how the martial concepts of bushido had the defeated at Sekigahara beheaded to create a pile of skulls; the militarism of Imperial Japan or the slaughter in Nanking.
Oh, yes my comparisons with Japan have always been militaristic, spiritual, and business. The honor aspect has always been largely a community-created thing and not based on PF. I find the potential combination of militarism and the Way to be possibly one of the elements in PF most full of potential for varying perspectives.
And yes, I suppose that makes some sense with Israel and Prussia. Though in most cases in history, being the aggressor has caused their foreign threats. But yes, I get your point and I see the correlation.
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The demographics article declares 5% of the population as 'enlisted military personnel'. If you compare this here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_military_and_paramilitary_personnel) it puts it above North Korea, likely creating equal numbers of reservists (around 40%), if not higher, as it is also stated that all citizens* must complete compulsive basic military training, and we're talking about a period of time spanning multiple generations, so everyone who was not too feeble to have served, has served. The slightly sketchy "Crew" article from Fanfest also stated that the reason Caldari, despite their high-tech fetish, are only second to the Minmatar (who "like doing it the hard way") in average crew sizes, is that there's such a high amount of recruits in the military, and it is considered to be vital ( "honorubra" ) to have served, that there's no pressure to try and cut down on these numbers. Personal conclusion here is that there's likely a much higher acceptance for service-related losses.
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So on considering the Caldari I'm curious as to other people's thoughts on the nature of the Caldari State's described militarist attitudes.
At a basic level it appears that the Caldari State is very much like the Prussia or Israel of New Eden in that you've got a very small nation in terms of population surrounded by far larger powers that it considers potential threats to its survival and interests. As such the belief it seems is that a strong military is the only means to continued existence when faced with the "existential threats" the other three major powers represent. This can be seen in the fact that the State maintains that citizens have to remain ready to be mobilized or conscripted into active military service in addition to maintaining a standing military through the Caldari Navy and the Megacorporate PMC's that together appears that the State maintains a far higher percentage of its population under arms in comparison to any other major faction.
So I wonder what effect this has on Caldari society and worldviews. Even just looking at the Caldari concepts of meritocracy it has a deep military angle to it. Any truly effective military will tend to appoint and promote people on the basis of talent and ability above any other factors and this concept seems to have become ingrained with the Caldari not only due to a century of war with the Federation but because even prior to that the Caldari were busy fighting each other in internecine conflicts.
In many respects the Caldari seem very much the most conflict-oriented and militarist culture and society in New Eden given their history. It's like there's this latent acceptance that war is just part of life with the Caldari. The highly competitive nature of Megacorporate capitalism; the love of risk and gambling; gladiatorial sports; violent splinterz matches -- they all seem to point to a culture that thrives on conflict and adversity as being part of life.
Now granted these are some vague initial thoughts, but how do others see it?
Mostly like you...
Except, the most conflict oriented, probably not, the Amarr are unbeatable at that. But the most militarist culture, even more than the Amarr, probably yes, where in the Empire the Navy has a HUGE size and social power (like in the Roman Empire pretty much, as a social ladder tool as well as a cultural facet in itself), the militarist culture is not pervasive like it has become in the State.
By and large, I would agree with your initial impression. The PF regarding conscription and mobilization are particularly telling, even the CMEF flavor that they are conscripted regardless of any prior megacorp responsibilities.
While many people get tired of comparing the Caldari to Japan, I think it is worth noting that the spiritual aspects of Caldari are much more in-line with Japan than Israel or Prussia. Something so animist and balanced as the Way coexisting with such a militaristic society leads to some interesting nuance - especially when also combined with the non-luxury/aesthetic aspect of Caldari culture. The other issue with the Israeli correlation is how small the Israeli military actually is. They have power via technology from the USA, not through their own military might. Prussia is a better indicator - I've always imagined Austrian-Japanese, myself. All of that said, I think it can be detrimental to attach too much significance to real-world similarities like the RP community does so frequently.
I suppose my point is: the militarism is certainly there and fairly overriding, but I think the beauty of it is manifested when you take into account the Way, aestheticism, etc.
Austria has never been known for its militarism or military doctrines, but rather their diplomatic and aristocratic influence (especially through the Kaiser they controled most of the time through the Habsburg dynasty).
Also, I have a really hard time to see the analogy between shintoistic/spiritual Japan and the Caldari... Their only similarities probably lie in the Zaibatsu model as well as in the tea ceremony cliché (aesthetics mostly, yeah).
By and large, I would agree with your initial impression. The PF regarding conscription and mobilization are particularly telling, even the CMEF flavor that they are conscripted regardless of any prior megacorp responsibilities.
While many people get tired of comparing the Caldari to Japan, I think it is worth noting that the spiritual aspects of Caldari are much more in-line with Japan than Israel or Prussia. Something so animist and balanced as the Way coexisting with such a militaristic society leads to some interesting nuance - especially when also combined with the non-luxury/aesthetic aspect of Caldari culture. The other issue with the Israeli correlation is how small the Israeli military actually is. They have power via technology from the USA, not through their own military might. Prussia is a better indicator - I've always imagined Austrian-Japanese, myself. All of that said, I think it can be detrimental to attach too much significance to real-world similarities like the RP community does so frequently.
I suppose my point is: the militarism is certainly there and fairly overriding, but I think the beauty of it is manifested when you take into account the Way, aestheticism, etc.
I used the example of Prussia and Israel not to draw direct parallels but rather a comparison of having a similar scenario in being a small nation surrounded by larger hostile or potentially hostile neighbours creating a particular worldview of being constantly under threat thus needing a strong and effective military to ensure survival.
That being said while people do draw parallels with Caldari and Japan, I've always found that it tends to focus overmuch on the romanticized notions of bushido and honour and never on how the martial concepts of bushido had the defeated at Sekigahara beheaded to create a pile of skulls; the militarism of Imperial Japan or the slaughter in Nanking.
That part of feudal Japanese Bushido is a lot closer to the Amarr Empire indeed (cf what happened to the commanding officers at Vak'Atioth, or what happens to one's family and lineage when one screws up enough to fall out of grace).
Caldari honour can be seen here and there, but it's rather military honour than anything else. I have yet to see many references to concepts of losing face and falling in disgrace, like it is the case in the Amarr Empire. After all Caldari spend their time in corporate pragmatism.
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By and large, I would agree with your initial impression. The PF regarding conscription and mobilization are particularly telling, even the CMEF flavor that they are conscripted regardless of any prior megacorp responsibilities.
While many people get tired of comparing the Caldari to Japan, I think it is worth noting that the spiritual aspects of Caldari are much more in-line with Japan than Israel or Prussia. Something so animist and balanced as the Way coexisting with such a militaristic society leads to some interesting nuance - especially when also combined with the non-luxury/aesthetic aspect of Caldari culture. The other issue with the Israeli correlation is how small the Israeli military actually is. They have power via technology from the USA, not through their own military might. Prussia is a better indicator - I've always imagined Austrian-Japanese, myself. All of that said, I think it can be detrimental to attach too much significance to real-world similarities like the RP community does so frequently.
I suppose my point is: the militarism is certainly there and fairly overriding, but I think the beauty of it is manifested when you take into account the Way, aestheticism, etc.
Austria has never been known for its militarism or military doctrines, but rather their diplomatic and aristocratic influence (especially through the Kaiser they controled most of the time through the Habsburg dynasty).
Also, I have a really hard time to see the analogy between shintoistic/spiritual Japan and the Caldari... Their only similarities probably lie in the Zaibatsu model as well as in the tea ceremony cliché (aesthetics mostly, yeah).
My point with Austria is the German confederacy before there actually was a Germany or Austria. The megas all under the banner of the State, the various confederates under the HRE, etc. The decentralized structure but with similar cultural heritages and peoples between them. Obviously there is a lot of disconnect, but it has always popped into my mind as an example of a pseudocultural political grouping with quite a bit of decentralized aspects.
And there are many similarities between Shintoism/Japanese Buddhism and Caldari spiritualism. Shinto is often translated as the "Way of the Gods," and the word where God is taken is Kami, which is often translated as essences. Shinto is often animistic but at the same time is syncretic with Buddhism.
This lines up very well with the Caldari Way which is the syncretism between the Winds and Ancestors. Right down to the Shinto notion that certain sacred places, often natural, that have an unusually spiritual aspect to them for a connection between humans and the essences (KK peaks).
Some people have tried to argue that the Way is more akin to Taoism, but there's nothing in the PF that suggests that sort of philosophical aspect to Caldari spirituality.
So while I can admit there are all sorts of issues with my Austrian notion, I can't think of another real-world example of spirituality that lines up as well with Caldari as Japanese Shinto-Buddhism.
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Also, another note on the militarism. A relevant quote from TonyG (I don't care, deal with it):
Steeped in martial tradition, the Caldari State is a veritable fortress of corporate dominance, immersed in a culture governed by the laws of competition. From early childhood, the Caldari are taught to embrace conflict, a spartan philosophy which they hold responsible for the survival of their race in the post-EVE collapse era. A testament to natural selection, their behavior descends from the fortitude of ancestors who inhabited some of the harshest worlds of New Eden.
Gonzales, Tony (2009-08-04). EVE: The Empyrean Age (p. 39). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
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By and large, I would agree with your initial impression. The PF regarding conscription and mobilization are particularly telling, even the CMEF flavor that they are conscripted regardless of any prior megacorp responsibilities.
While many people get tired of comparing the Caldari to Japan, I think it is worth noting that the spiritual aspects of Caldari are much more in-line with Japan than Israel or Prussia. Something so animist and balanced as the Way coexisting with such a militaristic society leads to some interesting nuance - especially when also combined with the non-luxury/aesthetic aspect of Caldari culture. The other issue with the Israeli correlation is how small the Israeli military actually is. They have power via technology from the USA, not through their own military might. Prussia is a better indicator - I've always imagined Austrian-Japanese, myself. All of that said, I think it can be detrimental to attach too much significance to real-world similarities like the RP community does so frequently.
I suppose my point is: the militarism is certainly there and fairly overriding, but I think the beauty of it is manifested when you take into account the Way, aestheticism, etc.
Austria has never been known for its militarism or military doctrines, but rather their diplomatic and aristocratic influence (especially through the Kaiser they controled most of the time through the Habsburg dynasty).
Also, I have a really hard time to see the analogy between shintoistic/spiritual Japan and the Caldari... Their only similarities probably lie in the Zaibatsu model as well as in the tea ceremony cliché (aesthetics mostly, yeah).
My point with Austria is the German confederacy before there actually was a Germany or Austria. The megas all under the banner of the State, the various confederates under the HRE, etc. The decentralized structure but with similar cultural heritages and peoples between them. Obviously there is a lot of disconnect, but it has always popped into my mind as an example of a pseudocultural political grouping with quite a bit of decentralized aspects.
And there are many similarities between Shintoism/Japanese Buddhism and Caldari spiritualism. Shinto is often translated as the "Way of the Gods," and the word where God is taken is Kami, which is often translated as essences. Shinto is often animistic but at the same time is syncretic with Buddhism.
This lines up very well with the Caldari Way which is the syncretism between the Winds and Ancestors. Right down to the Shinto notion that certain sacred places, often natural, that have an unusually spiritual aspect to them for a connection between humans and the essences (KK peaks).
Some people have tried to argue that the Way is more akin to Taoism, but there's nothing in the PF that suggests that sort of philosophical aspect to Caldari spirituality.
So while I can admit there are all sorts of issues with my Austrian notion, I can't think of another real-world example of spirituality that lines up as well with Caldari as Japanese Shinto-Buddhism.
Ah, the HRE then... I see.
But i'm still not convinced for Shinto/Bhuddism... Especially Bhuddism. It feels far stretched to me.
For once I don't see any kami in the Caldari spirituality, no Oni, or other Yokai or Mononoke... All the folklore is absent pretty much.
As for Buddhism, honestly no clue what could make them similar as well ?
I understand what can feel similar but that's mostly it to me.
I will have to read again in details Wayism and Caldari spirituality, but what is closer to Bhuddism and other asian spiritual paradigms to me is the Achura religion...
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Problem with both Prussian and Japanese models is that they involved large military aristocracies. I don't see that happening in Caldari the way it does in Amarr.
In some ways Caldari reminds me more of French Revolutionary/Napoleonic militarism. Levee en mass, espirit de corps, and so on strike me as significantly more Caldari than Bushido does. The militarism is corporate and civic and much more likely to be merit based than not by my read. I also expect that the militarism goes to a much lower level of society than Amarrian militarism. IE, Amarrian militarism seems to be a warrior caste sort of thing, while *everyone* in the caldari state seems to be potentially a part of the war machine.
Roman Republic militarism might also work fairly well as a model. The tribes system might be a useful comparison to the caldari corporate system.
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Honestly, when it comes to militarism, I'd say that it draws a lot from the Finnish element of the German-Finnish-Japanese trifecta that CCP's referenced with the Caldari. The Japanese element-- well, to be honest, I don't really see much draw for e-honor so much as zaibatsu, with its focus on loyalty and subservience to company-as-clan-and-family, likely drawing along a Confucian vein of filial piety. The Confucian ideal seems, in my admittedly very limited reading, a hierarchal alternative to the Western democratic ideal of the social contract. This then feeds into rank awareness and social pressure.
But the militarism-- think Finland in the Winter War and the Continuation War. With the Winter War, the anecdote is about Molotov or some other Russian muckity-muck commenting: "We have won just about enough ground to bury our dead." The Finns outfought the Soviets in the winter, and continued to outfight them in the Continuation War, even when grossly outnumbered. Also, drawing on the quote, we should consider the mechanic. Consider that the Finns didn't have much of an indigenous arms industry, and so equipped a tank division using salvaged Russian tanks, often the obsolete tanks they could capture in sufficient quantity to provide spare parts. Even when they got relatively-more-modern German assault guns, they beefed up the armor using logs and concrete blocks. Perhaps, then, we could see this most clearly in Kairiola, which was a water freighter converted into a carrier. If that's not an effective display of make-do, I don't know what is.
On the Prussian front-- well. What's curious, again, is that the one quote referenced the Third Reich instead of just Germans generally. The Prussian military aristocracy, while phenomenally effective and the basis of German military capability with the general staff system and the state's reservist system, was evidently distrusted by Hitler as a conservative element. There was a strong element of competition in Hitler's staff, which I've read explained as a belief that competition for resources would allow the strongest and most effective to rise to the top-- though I'm sure Speer would disagree, seeing as he had to reorganize the German arms industry in the face of constant competition for resources, duplication of effort, etc.
Gaven, on the Napoleonic system. Interestingly, the Israeli reservist model is in the tradition of the Prussian reservist system, which arose from armistice constraints on the size of the Prussian military during the early stage of the Napoleonic wars. To allow for the ability to rapidly draw up trained military forces in the case of another war, Prussia instituted a reservist system and mandatory military service to create a large pool of trained personnel that could be rapidly mobilized in time of war. This system was copied by basically every major power once the Prussians demonstrated its effectiveness, and was one reason why mobilization timetables became a major strategic consideration for European powers in the lead-up to World War 1.
p.s. so, random aside: I keep referencing that one quote from CCP's creative director. While it's only one or two sentences, it has a remarkable meme density, and I get the feeling that it's the sort of thing that exists within CCP as a shorthand, distilled over time to get core concepts across.
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I think space bushido/space honor is a concept coming from players, not the PF, and should be treated with care.
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Definitely agreed that it should be handled with care, and possibly also handled not-here. It's a bit of a dead horse, and doesn't seem immediately relevant to Caldari militarism, so let's sidestep it.
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Problem with both Prussian and Japanese models is that they involved large military aristocracies. I don't see that happening in Caldari the way it does in Amarr.
In some ways Caldari reminds me more of French Revolutionary/Napoleonic militarism. Levee en mass, espirit de corps, and so on strike me as significantly more Caldari than Bushido does. The militarism is corporate and civic and much more likely to be merit based than not by my read. I also expect that the militarism goes to a much lower level of society than Amarrian militarism. IE, Amarrian militarism seems to be a warrior caste sort of thing, while *everyone* in the caldari state seems to be potentially a part of the war machine.
Roman Republic militarism might also work fairly well as a model. The tribes system might be a useful comparison to the caldari corporate system.
I haven't thought of napoleonic militarism... It is an interesting point of view, and it might work if we remain in the frame of the purely militaristic side of it... Because otherwise, political ideals and doctrines are definitely completely opposed to Caldari mindset (Jacobinism, Imperialism and expansionism, european unification and eradication of aristocracy, etc).
Bushido, well, no, just no, I agree with you. That's completely antithesis to the Caldari spirit.
I don't think however that it goes lower than Amarrian militarism necessarily. It is clearly stated that the Amarr Navy is a colossus of an organization that is really central in Amarr society (like the SPQR was in the Roman Empire) in that everyone can enlist for glory and recognition, where doing a few years of service can assure you to climb the ladder in years, what you would have done otherwise in generations instead via standard means. It's a great way to assure one's own social position, especially for ex slaves or even slaves, commoners, and low extract people. Of course, those ones - contrary to the Caldari where merit is king - will never aspire to positions of prestige like officers or high officers which may be reserved traditionally to nobles, but they could eventually through exceptionnal service, and I think that the Amarr Navy is probably one of the only places in the Empire where meritocracy can occur on a daily basis, although dampened a lot by the omnipresent traditional nepotism existing in the Empire institutions.
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People keep using Finland as a comparison as if anyone actually knows what Finnish culture entails, lol. Okay, sure, I could do research, but immediate thoughts are Moomins and Nightwish. Also, their education system is so laidback and egalitarian that wearing no shoes to class is pretty normal, never mind the fact there are no gifted schools in their system. Doesn't sound very Caldari to me.
Some random CCP dev from years ago word drops Finnish and Caldari in the same sentence, and since then we've heard Finnish mentioned continously. Okay, so there's the Winter War...what else? Finland is a historically insignificant country outside of the Second World War insofar that nobody knows dick about them other than the fact that they have a topnotch education system which is awesome to read on paper at least. I also know they stand like 50 metres apart waiting at bus stops. Sure, there are Finnish linguistic influences in Caldari naming schemes, but that doesn't mean anything. Gallente have French naming habits, yet I see more people RP Gallente as moronic North American college bros rather than highly cultured socialites. The Amarr have Arabic naming schemes, yet nobody has any interest in RPing Middle Eastern fancies. Not the right kind of foreign, maybe.
It would be much more useful to employ notable historical analogues like pre-1945 Germany, not some obscure country like Finland (I must be empathic about the fact that I am not trying to be offensive; ask someone from mainland China or midwestern US, mild chance that they would not have heard of this country). Anyway, yes, that would include fascism, but you can't build a compelling universe by being politically correct!
Also, yes, I would love to see someone take the romantic stuff of Japanese bushido and equally RP the war crime prone angle of it. Hey, the Gallente are all about peace and diplomacy right? Until they bomb the shit out of your homeworld.
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Problem with both Prussian and Japanese models is that they involved large military aristocracies. I don't see that happening in Caldari the way it does in Amarr.
While I would agree the Caldari don't have an aristocracy they do have powerful shareholding Executive families that have a great deal of influence over the Megacorporations.
This might be a bit of supposition, but I've also sometimes seen the Deteis as being the de facto aristocracy or something a bit akin to the Prussian Junker class. Whilst they might no longer own land in a feudal society, the Caldari do impress a great deal of cultural conformity and the latent expectations for the Deteis in the State seems to be that they seek to fulfill Leadership roles in the State. The very racial description of the Deteis, if seen as the stereotype, is that they are expected to be ones who manage affairs, who become the managers, the executives, the officers and the General Staff.
Also, when looking at Caldari history when they went from a "Warlord era" when the Gallente implemented the Cultural Deliverance Society to a corporate society in a short amount of time, if those Warlords were say, a small military aristocracy of Deteis with a large soldiery of Civire then that same sort of dynamic might very well be a strong cultural trope remaining in the State: Deteis lead, and Civire follow orders.
It's also amusing when one considers that Tibus Heth was a Civire railing against the "corruption and nepotism" of an entrenched ruling class in State society and that those primarily opposed to him and responsible for his downfall were Deteis like Haatakan Oiritsuu, Admiral Yanala, and Mens Reppola.
It's also that for some reason it's just felt right even from my experiences in internal RP with Caldari: Veikitamo as a Deteis does the proper thing of seizing power and authority for the Greater Good, and the Civire like Desiderya and Pieter might have issues with her Machiavellan scheming at times but in the end that's just Caldari and the way things are done.
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Gallente have French naming habits, yet I see more people RP Gallente as moronic North American college bros rather than highly cultured socialites. [...]
To be fair, "north American college brah" is closer to real contemporary French culture than "highly cultured socialite."
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People keep using Finland as a comparison as if anyone actually knows what Finnish culture entails, lol. Okay, sure, I could do research, but immediate thoughts are Moomins and Nightwish. Also, their education system is so laidback and egalitarian that wearing no shoes to class is pretty normal, never mind the fact there are no gifted schools in their system. Doesn't sound very Caldari to me.
Some random CCP dev from years ago word drops Finnish and Caldari in the same sentence, and since then we've heard Finnish mentioned continously. Okay, so there's the Winter War...what else? Finland is a historically insignificant country outside of the Second World War insofar that nobody knows dick about them other than the fact that they have a topnotch education system which is awesome to read on paper at least. I also know they stand like 50 metres apart waiting at bus stops. Sure, there are Finnish linguistic influences in Caldari naming schemes, but that doesn't mean anything. Gallente have French naming habits, yet I see more people RP Gallente as moronic North American college bros rather than highly cultured socialites. The Amarr have Arabic naming schemes, yet nobody has any interest in RPing Middle Eastern fancies. Not the right kind of foreign, maybe.
It would be much more useful to employ notable historical analogues like pre-1945 Germany, not some obscure country like Finland (I must be empathic about the fact that I am not trying to be offensive; ask someone from mainland China or midwestern US, mild chance that they would not have heard of this country). Anyway, yes, that would include fascism, but you can't build a compelling universe by being politically correct!
Also, yes, I would love to see someone take the romantic stuff of Japanese bushido and equally RP the war crime prone angle of it. Hey, the Gallente are all about peace and diplomacy right? Until they bomb the shit out of your homeworld.
You are such the perfect Gallentean RPer that you made a career out of telling the Caldari RPers how be proper Caldari. I bet you don't even realize you do it even though that's the content of what must be something like 90% of your posts since joining the RP community. The perfect Gallentean IC or OOC :lol:
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People keep using Finland as a comparison as if anyone actually knows what Finnish culture entails
Caldari share with the Finnish:
1. Snow
2. Double vowels
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Gallente have French naming habits, yet I see more people RP Gallente as moronic North American college bros rather than highly cultured socialites. [...]
To be fair, "north American college brah" is closer to real contemporary French culture than "highly cultured socialite."
Depends of which culture we speak... Mass moronic culture probably, like everywhere else...
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Back to the original notion of militarism itself, I think it is pretty safe to say that conflict is in and of itself an important part of Caldari culture. This naturally leads into a militaristic one, which I also agree it seems likely that it would permeate all strata of Caldari life to some extent. People always like to refer to the Patriots as the militaristic ones, but the PF does say that the Practicals were the most pro-Heth of the bunch.
And on the topic of the Way, there is only two significant sources we have to draw on - so there really isn't a defining connection. I've heard people go Taoism the most often because well, it's called the Way which is the most common translation of Tao. I've always thought of non-shrine Shinto, but either way, the Way goes a long way to showing itself as Eastern.
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What do people mean when they say militarism? Are they referring to a structured/scheduled life-style? Warrior culture? The references to historical examples have referenced both, but I think they are really separate concepts.
In the case of the whole of the Caldari State, I think the emphasis really would really be on the structured/scheduled life-style. But within that is a subculture with a definitive warrior culture aspect in the Civire.
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What do people mean when they say militarism?
I would say it means the importance of the military in the State and the impacts that has on Caldari culture, society, and outlook?
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Im totally off topic now. But as I have read Junkers, Prussia and "moronic North American college bros" I have thought about the Khanid Kingdom :P. I have worked on some fanficion on that topic. See here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributions_by_Publius_Valerius#New_Stuff). My inspiration was here (http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4099278#post4099278) and of course more stuff: Like David Ricardo (see Economy of the Khanid Kingdom (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Economy_of_the_Khanid_Kingdom)), Blade runner (http://www.mojvideo.com/video-blade-runner-1982-1-4-full-movie-eng-subs/13475e954acc6903fd07) (love the two color vipe from the flick, as well as, I made the Kingdom a asian,central-asian typ majority state, aka Khanid are the largest bloodline (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Khanid_Kingdom#Khanid)) etc....
If someone finds the time and read throught it (and give some feedback on the talkpage or here), it would be great.
- Culture of the Khanid Kingdom (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Culture_of_the_Khanid_Kingdom) (music for reading: Cassius - Au Reve (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07WuEZaRb7o))
- The Dragoon (lore) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Dragoon_%28lore%29) (music for reading: Dead man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT3jnu1yJO0))
- Context chart (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Opinions_by_Publius_Valerius)
As can be seen alot of stuff is still WIP. I hope I can finish it before the Source book comes out. Thats why Im happy for any help. As those pages have still alot of typos and "logical-" and "explaination-holes" (Lorem ipsum...). So If someone sees an error, he or she can of course rework the page (I havent log any of my pages) or post it here (I will doing most likely a new thread about that topic).
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Back to the topic. I actually have no deep opinion about the State or Fed or why and how the Caldari Militarism works. Both nations are for me "stylized versions" of reality (could make some long and broing post on some talk pages. But as the last time went so well *cough*. See Khanid Kingdom debat, I save my time and put all my resource to fix the Kingdom). It is for me more the case of Ayn Rand fan meets John Rawls fan and hit with a stick on eachother. A topic where I stay away (could write a 500 page essay about that topic*just joking, but with alittle pit of true in it :P).
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I really never saw most Caldari Executives or even Tibus Heth for that matter as John Galt or Howard Roarke type figures.
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I really never saw most Caldari Executives or even Tibus Heth for that matter as John Galt or Howard Roarke type figures.
Yeah, it doesn't fit well at all. The entire point of Ayn Rand is extremist individualism. That has absolutely nothing to do with the Caldari.
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I really never saw most Caldari Executives or even Tibus Heth for that matter as John Galt or Howard Roarke type figures.
I really never saw most Caldari Executives or even Tibus Heth for that matter as John Galt or Howard Roarke type figures.
Lol. Funny, that you two focus about my Ayn Rand comment, but totally dont care care that I call the State Fiction. :P Unrealistic fiction to more clear. Thats why I think you will not find an answer, but nevertheless I would happy to proven to be wrong.
By the way I have said: I see "state and fed conflict" like "Ayn Rand and John Rawls conflict".
And I have reason to say it that way. :P
Maybe I should said:
State-Prime-Fiction-errors are like those errors done by Ayn Rand*
Fed-Prime-Fiction-errors are like those errors done by John Rawls** in his works.
*Not that I would go so far like M. Friedman to call her stuff pseudoscience.
**Which is call a philospher and not political scientist for a good reason.
Edit: Sorry meant to say pseudophilosophy. My apologie to science :P :bear: :P.
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Lol. Funny, that you two focus about my Ayn Rand comment, but totally dont care care that I call the State Fiction. :P Unrealistic fiction to more clear. Thats why I think you will not find an answer, but nevertheless I would happy to proven to be wrong.
Fiction can tend to be unrealistic and open to interpretation, that's why these discussions exist because there isn't exactly a wide body of work to get your citations from unlike in the real world.
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Lol. Funny, that you two focus about my Ayn Rand comment, but totally dont care care that I call the State Fiction. :P Unrealistic fiction to more clear. Thats why I think you will not find an answer, but nevertheless I would happy to proven to be wrong.
Fiction can tend to be unrealistic and open to interpretation, that's why these discussions exist because there isn't exactly a wide body of work to get your citations from unlike in the real world.
Sure, sure, sure as I said. Im happy to proven wrong, but I dont hold my breath. If someone finds a realistic and logical explanation about the "state of the state" and "state of the fed", Im the first how rolls with it. :D
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I am confused...
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Lol. Funny, that you two focus about my Ayn Rand comment, but totally dont care care that I call the State Fiction. :P Unrealistic fiction to more clear. Thats why I think you will not find an answer, but nevertheless I would happy to proven to be wrong.
Fiction can tend to be unrealistic and open to interpretation, that's why these discussions exist because there isn't exactly a wide body of work to get your citations from unlike in the real world.
Sure, sure, sure as I said. Im happy to proven wrong, but I dont hold my breath. If someone finds a realistic and logical explanation about the "state of the state" and "state of the fed", Im the first how rolls with it. :D
I might be willing to answer only if you can give me a realistic and logical explanation how Greedo shot first in the Cantina in Star Wars.
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Lol. Funny, that you two focus about my Ayn Rand comment, but totally dont care care that I call the State Fiction. :P Unrealistic fiction to more clear. Thats why I think you will not find an answer, but nevertheless I would happy to proven to be wrong.
Fiction can tend to be unrealistic and open to interpretation, that's why these discussions exist because there isn't exactly a wide body of work to get your citations from unlike in the real world.
Sure, sure, sure as I said. Im happy to proven wrong, but I dont hold my breath. If someone finds a realistic and logical explanation about the "state of the state" and "state of the fed", Im the first how rolls with it. :D
I might be willing to answer only if you can give me a realistic and logical explanation how Greedo shot first in the Cantina in Star Wars.
Lol. I was think about a Star Wars example here as well. I mean makeing one in my first post too. But I have change it to my long Khanid post... You are right, I cant make any realistic or logical explanation about THE FORCE as it is space magic; or in your example about Star Wars puppet Cantina with its weird space aliens, as it is space fantasy.
My second thought was about, that topic: here (http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=284486&find=unread). Meaning, trying to find stuff about the state is like finding an explanation for some "handwavium magitech (http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4127072#post4127072)" Meaning that most stuff (in primefiction) just is there because of the rule of cool (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VoYPMBRE3M) (15:46) in the best case. In the worst case just some "inductive something" (Rand) or "brocken explanation model (often a trade off isnt use**)" with unanswered motivation of individuals (Rawls)*. But Im happy to proven wrong, and role with any outcome.
*What I call before Rawls-error and Rand-error. As I have a strong hapit to give some actions the name of the guy/girl how is famous for it. Thats why I came up with TonyGism :P :bear: :P
**He knows it would destroy his model. So he just says that someone can choose two conflicting outcomes totally, without saying why that is the case. What I call a world without opportunity cost, for the sake of "blurrb"... aka a good feeling in your body, when you reading it, that a "just" world is possible.
Edit:In other words:
Rand Objectivism=Inductive reasoning get sold as science, as valid explanation. Which it isnt. THATS WHY IT IS FICTION
CCP Caldari Prime Fiction=Inductive reasing get sold as explanation. Which it isnt. THATS WHY IT IS FICTION
Rawls=World without trade-offs gets sold as if something like this could exist. Which it cant. THATS WHY IT IS FICTION
CCP Fed Prime Fiction = The Fed gets presented as a world without trade-offs gets sold as if something like this could exist. Which it cant. THATS WHY IT IS FICTION
TonyGism=World were indiviuals choose not the best outcome for themself, but what the plot likes them to do so. THATS WHY IT IS FICTION
CCP Prime Fiction about Jamyl and the others=Shows a world were indiviuals choose not the best outcome for themself, but what the plot likes them to do so. THATS WHY IT IS FICTION
I hope that explains it better. And I would actually go so far to say THATS WHY UNREALISTIC FICTION, but as I said I roll with anything.
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Oh shit, it's MC Getting Sidetracked Easily! ( 2:34 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE4zF36dPxE&feature=player_detailpage#t=154) )
Let's get back on track.
What do people mean when they say militarism? Are they referring to a structured/scheduled life-style? Warrior culture? The references to historical examples have referenced both, but I think they are really separate concepts.
In the case of the whole of the Caldari State, I think the emphasis really would really be on the structured/scheduled life-style. But within that is a subculture with a definitive warrior culture aspect in the Civire.
I'd agree with your conclusion. I don't think it emphasizes individual "master bushido zen warrior" traditions, but something similar to the Amarr's Navy, a military institution. Caldari are highly collectivistic, so being that cog in the wheel is most likely a very pleasant spot to be.
At the opposite end of this spectrum, members of space forces are highly-skilled and professional, having to operate and maintain the advanced technology that Caldari starships are known for. These are the career soldiers who frequently remain in the military for life from an early age, respected and honored highly by the masses. A famed few (including Ishukone CEO Mens Reppola) from this caste go on to leadership positions elsewhere in the State.
Like most elements of Caldari society, it is not possible to ascend to management position immediately by virtue of a higher education. There are generally only two ways to become an officer; either training from adolescence where the strong are weeded out from the weak, or having ascended from the rank-and-file. Even children of high-ranking admirals will be expected to start as an entry-level crewperson.
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But Im happy to proven wrong, and role with any outcome.
This isn't about right or wrong, but just my disagreeing with the notions Ayn Rand presented in her fiction applying to the Caldari. This is why I brought up John Galt and Howard Roarke because in both Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead they are presented as individualist figures overcoming society through their own talents and ability. In the PF as presented by CCP the Caldari have references to prescribing to a, "Greater Good," or rather that the expectation via cultural conformity is that the individual is supposed to use their talents and ability towards the collective welfare of their society and not towards their own self-interest. Which would be a bit counter-intuitive to me at least with the individualism, and almost anarcho-capitalist, concepts Ayn Rand explored in her prose fiction writing and her Objectivist philosophy. Discounting the fact that the Caldari State culturally at least shares on the surface, the collectivist trends of Soviet Russia (Without the Marxist economics) from which Ayn Rand fled and denounced.
The purpose of this thread however wasn't about Ayn Rand or Objectivism but rather a discussion on the thoughts and impressions others might have about Caldari militarism. I'm sure you can create another thread if you really want to explore that tangent as it applies to the State if you wish.
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At the opposite end of this spectrum, members of space forces are highly-skilled and professional, having to operate and maintain the advanced technology that Caldari starships are known for. These are the career soldiers who frequently remain in the military for life from an early age, respected and honored highly by the masses. A famed few (including Ishukone CEO Mens Reppola) from this caste go on to leadership positions elsewhere in the State.
Like most elements of Caldari society, it is not possible to ascend to management position immediately by virtue of a higher education. There are generally only two ways to become an officer; either training from adolescence where the strong are weeded out from the weak, or having ascended from the rank-and-file. Even children of high-ranking admirals will be expected to start as an entry-level crewperson.
I sense a lot of Heinlein's Starship Troopers trying to be channeled in the bit of PF.
There is an important difference between technical ability and leadership ability. The best warrior does not necessarily make the best leader. The Senior Graviton Reactor Engineer on a Caldari Navy Wyvern may have as many years of service as the Admiral commanding the fleet it is part of, but they live and work in entirely different spheres.
In general, I think the Caldari culture as a whole respects and admires dedication to craft/purpose. The dedication it takes to spend life in a profession where death is a normal result becomes an exemplar to the factory drone maintainer.
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I sense a lot of Heinlein's Starship Troopers trying to be channeled in the bit of PF.
Yes! This.
There are some quite visible parallels between Caldari State and Terran Federation. For example, same Caldari ideal of sacrificing for greater good.
As an addition to the topic, I envisage that only military service (as serving obligatory conscription term) gives Caldari full citizenships, and thus those, who pick military career (to be trained as officer and dedicate their lives to Navy), became elites in society akin to higher corporation management.
As for being warrior/leader, for example, my character plays role of a warrior who really suck at being a leader (mostly because I suck at it as a player :oops:)