Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Ava Starfire on 06 Nov 2013, 06:43
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So, yeah.
Now, after 6 months of endless "Rawr, Matari bad!" as a result of the massive derpsplosion that was the Coleile/Brouteau arc, I am now set upon by people who claim Ava isnt "Minny" enough for... for whatever. I went from being the punching bag of the community for the evils of Minny society (that is basically what it was there for a month or two) to this... what?
So, let me ask this; are there reasonable standards, to which the community can hold someone who expects to be seen as a member of a faction "in good standing" and where is the line? At this point, Ava's "minny cred' is pretty well established, frankly, but three people have now made the comment, IC, that somehow she is all bad and not Minny for daring to leave faction warfare/EM.
At what point do reasonable expectations just become derp?
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Ignore them, you're an established Minmatar. It's like that in real life too as I'm sure we're all aware. In all factions similar things happen, the RP Amarr have a brutally effective religious propoganda campaign that makes people not want to RP non-religious Amarr, the RP Gallente enforce liberalism and 'openmindedness' such upon their members, the RP Caldari act upon the RP ideas of nationalism and anti-Gallenteness.
The militant Matari are calling you out because you want to do something else. Don't let them have you, justify it IC, to be any one of the main faction cultures you don't need to be slaughtering your juxtaposed empire.
It's all RP and it's like the real world, the biggest characters force everyone else to be like them. Harden your resolve and make yourself a fortress. The worst thing that can happen is that you bend to them unless you want your character to as a point of development?
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Yeah, those people can go to Hell. I still get mail to this day about Constantin along those lines.
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Tell them to man up and stop relying on others to do their work. Also tell them to suck a thing of their choice.
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It's always the same tyranny of the mainstream vs marginals. Don't worry too much, it's normal...
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I hate the idea that 'you aren't a REAL member of xyz faction unless you are in FacWar' I really really hate it, and in that way, I think FW has done tremendous harm to RP. Its getting to the point where any character of some age can see the futility of FW, which, I've seen a few people ICly coining the Pendulum Wars, which I really like, and I feel speaks well to the futility of the conflict. I still consider my character Sebiestor, and I'm sure I get quite a bit of 'nope not minmatar' directed at me. I think there are many ways to play a character, and many ways to play a character as part of a faction. Tell the people who say you're doing it wrong to fuck right off.
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*cough cough* probably a good time to join PIE Inc. or any other amarr rp corp. *cough cough*
On a more serious note:
Why should your character cares what those people think, are they clan chiefs or tribal leaders? If no, then why do your character thinks that their opinion are of any relevance.
If you want to make enemies, try to change some things. And if I understand correctly Ava is doing just that, so ripples are to be expected.
Keep your head up high, and do what you do.
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I hate the idea that 'you aren't a REAL member of xyz faction unless you are in FacWar' I really really hate it, and in that way, I think FW has done tremendous harm to RP.
Pretty much this, and I didn't really -start- RPing until after FW, so I got to witness the resulting decline from day one. Intra-faction conflict has basically regressed to little more than passive-aggressive frothing and sniping on the IGS and has no real substance beyond that.
You used to see wardecs. Aggressive propaganda campaigns. Actual blood sweat and tears being put into and shed over that stuff.
Now it's just "if you're not in FW you're not a loyalist and you suck and nobody gives a fuck what you say" and "yeah, we'll get to dealing with them after FW is over".
... Wat. All of mine.
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"After facwar is over"
Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
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Then lets do things that subvert this.
Lets break that and do the things.
I was going through old IGS posts the other day, and I came across the storyline that was the ILF/Moira war. Several FDU corporations (including Strix I believe) sanctioned Moira for their actions. Several jumped onside with Moira. Others stayed neutral (such as the Eleutherians).
In that one event, in the grand scope of Gallente RP - there were three different groupings directly at work internally with a disagreement over a core issue, but who still worked together against the Caldari.
Then of course there were the Intaki Separatists themselves involved, as well Caldari groups like I-RED with interests in the area.
While FW was the 'catalyst' - with allegations of the ILF feeding intel about the Gallenteans to the Caldari, the whole storyline, all the positioning, and most importantly all the propaganda ('evidence' from all sides, anecdotes, statements, and so on) were completely player generated.
FW doesn't have to be the death of diverse intra-factional play.
It doesn't help - but it can be resisted.
That only thing stopping it is if we are happy to consign all that to the past.
Lets doooo things.
Urdoinitwrong is a great source of RP - to try and be on topic with the thread.
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As much as I despise as well the trope that not being in militia means that you are not a loyalist, I do not think that this is the root of the problem.
Remove FW, get back to the old days where intra factional conflict we all love, and you will soon see a lot of finger pointing and war decs against other loyalists that happen to think differently. And most of the time, if that's not mainstream, they will have a really difficult hard time not to eat crows like Ava did here. FW or no FW. It's kindof expected since it's more or less realistic, what is more annoying is when it's pushing it a little too far.
I mean, I can understand Ava to be perfectly unlucky and draw the ire of people like radicals and UK that have opposed ideals (yay, intra factional conflict at last !), while at the same time they do not even have the guts to tell that in the face of Electus Matari that happens to have a similar stance. Well use that against them Ava btw.
What I find a bit more hilarious is that all the Matari that got the ire from federal loyalists were actually the softer ones, like Ava or EM members. Because they were the only ones to be here at the time and thus those loyalists dealt with what they got and thrashed you instead of the real supporter of the attack on Colelie...
Somewhere though, maybe it's a sign that your character is important enough to garner so many critics... Just use EM as a shield, I don't know. Make them call EM traitors and we will see if they continue. But heh, that's all IC anyway, and should be dealt ICly imo.
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I hate the idea that 'you aren't a REAL member of xyz faction unless you are in FacWar' I really really hate it, and in that way, I think FW has done tremendous harm to RP.
QFT, and I'm glad that so far Esna's been able to dodge that particular bullet.
Ava, I'm going to add my voice to the people saying that you shouldn't get upset at the people going off on Ava, but should instead work to prove them wrong. Make it abundantly clear that there are other ways to be Matari than to sit in FW going "Rawr evil slavers", and make other examples available to other people who'd want to follow that.
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Already said this in OOC: Don't need FW to be a loyalist.
'Capsuleer Loyalists' is a bit skewed anyway - its like a bunch of expatriots fighting over their old country's football games and hanging flags during the world cup. Other than that, they live in a completely different place than they used to. And then there's everyone else who doesn't watch sports. vOv
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'Capsuleer Loyalists' is a bit skewed anyway - its like a bunch of expatriots fighting over their old country's football games and hanging flags during the world cup. Other than that, they live in a completely different place than they used to. And then there's everyone else who doesn't watch sports. vOv
Well said, I think I am starting to like you.
I think Ava's problem is twofold why people are eager to give a go at her "matari cred". Not only is she not in FW, it's that she is in a corp that is not strictly minmatar loyalist or even loosely allied. It is a corp that is unaffiliated with any major organization or entity and it houses different loyalties under it's roof, some of which are polar opposites. I think as many people are intrigued by this concept there are people who find it hard to accept since it does not fit their view of how things should be and it's always easy target the more vocal members of the group and go for the low hanging fruit.
As far as I am concerned Ava is a full fledged matari, just because she is not in a matari corp doesn't make her any less of a one, since the corp is not diametrically opposed of matari interests. Some of the members might have personal agendas and opinions about the Republic and matari, but the corp does not.
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What Vince said.
And I understand it well Ava. It has arisen to a lesser degree with Jude. When people assume they know why he has fought for both the Minmatar and the Caldari, but never actually bothering to ask him for his reasons. The same goes for running a bar where everyone is welcome and for being a neutral merc. He has extensive IC reasoning behind all this, but he does not feel like making it public. And I don't want to let the cat out of the bag IC.
Basically, when he meets someone who have decided for themselves what his motives or reasoning are, he does not try and change their mind. He simply thinks less of them and moves on.
I would like to ask the questions.
If a Minmatar joins CONCORD, are they less Matari?
If a Gallente decides to fight the Sansha, instead of the Caldari, and thus fight on a different front, are they less less Gallente?
If a Caldari tries to stop Goons invading Jita, instead of fighting the Gallente, are they less Caldari?
I can go on, but I think the idea comes across.
The Sebiestor are supposed to be the most innovative, that makes me think that thinking outside of the box and trying to find new answers to old questions fit very well into racial profiling.
Ava and I have spoken about why her move makes sense IC.
Mmm, I wanted to say much, much more, but because it can be taken as critique of someone's IC character, I will rather leave that for IC.
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I've never been in Caldari FacWar, but I don't think that makes Silver less Caldari than people who have. I've even actively worked for the Minmatar and Sansha in the past. :D
Are there situations where to others someone's claims on a faction might ring hollow? Sure
Is that remotely possible in Ava's case? Theoretically, but it would take a lot more than leaving EM/Fac War. You've probably killed more Amarr ISK in a frigate than most people will ever do in any ship, for one thing.
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As a newcomer, color me confused. Is "Minmatar" being used in the strict sense of "loyal subject of the empire (Republic)"? I can't recall, but I believe the game asked you to choose a race, then a bloodline and gender. I wasn't asked to choose a character loyalty.
Trillions of baseliners, each walking their own varied paths, some tiny portion of which lead to demigodhood. Once you enter the pod, though, you must all think and act the same.
:ugh:
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As a newcomer, color me confused. Is "Minmatar" being used in the strict sense of "loyal subject of the empire (Republic)"? I can't recall, but I believe the game asked you to choose a race, then a bloodline and gender. I wasn't asked to choose a character loyalty.
Trillions of baseliners, each walking their own varied paths, some tiny portion of which lead to demigodhood. Once you enter the pod, though, you must all think and act the same.
:ugh:
You choose your loyalties down the line. You will be questioned about them, constantly especially if you portray your choice differently of what others perceive to be the 'right way'. Some just really want to make it into a game of Black and White in many occasions.
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As a newcomer, color me confused. Is "Minmatar" being used in the strict sense of "loyal subject of the empire (Republic)"? I can't recall, but I believe the game asked you to choose a race, then a bloodline and gender. I wasn't asked to choose a character loyalty.
Trillions of baseliners, each walking their own varied paths, some tiny portion of which lead to demigodhood. Once you enter the pod, though, you must all think and act the same.
:ugh:
You choose your loyalties down the line. You will be questioned about them, constantly especially if you portray your choice differently of what others perceive to be the 'right way'. Some just really want to make it into a game of Black and White in many occasions.
Of course, fucking with those people can be part of the fun, if that's your cup of tea.
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As a newcomer, color me confused. Is "Minmatar" being used in the strict sense of "loyal subject of the empire (Republic)"? I can't recall, but I believe the game asked you to choose a race, then a bloodline and gender. I wasn't asked to choose a character loyalty.
Trillions of baseliners, each walking their own varied paths, some tiny portion of which lead to demigodhood. Once you enter the pod, though, you must all think and act the same.
:ugh:
You choose your loyalties down the line. You will be questioned about them, constantly especially if you portray your choice differently of what others perceive to be the 'right way'. Some just really want to make it into a game of Black and White in many occasions.
Of course, fucking with those people can be part of the fun, if that's your cup of tea.
There are some VDs that cloning won't get rid of.
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"Minmatar" is said in many ways...
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I'd like to note that I only just read your thread on the IGS Ava, and that I consider it an instant classic.
Carry on.
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So, let me ask this; are there reasonable standards, to which the community can hold someone who expects to be seen as a member of a faction "in good standing" and where is the line? At this point, Ava's "minny cred' is pretty well established, frankly, but three people have now made the comment, IC, that somehow she is all bad and not Minny for daring to leave faction warfare/EM.
At what point do reasonable expectations just become derp?
I always reverse this position: Merdaneth defines what it is to be Amarr. If Merdaneth changes, then what it means to be Amarr changes along with him.
Most fun thing is: if you RP it well, you can make such a position work in EVE.
Does Ava feel she is a good Minnie? If she does, then behave that way and challenge those who doubt you, if that matters to Ava. If it doesn't matter to her, why care? If she doesn't feel she is a good Minnie, and people call her out on that: again, no problem right?
Some people felt Midular was a good Minnie, others didn't. There is no reasonably expectation which can declare Midular a good Minnie or not. I suggest simply not caring about it as a player.
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Aye, absolutely nothing wrong with the tribalism that occurs with loyalists. It's completely natural, human and an accurate portrayal of how people actually act when someone's 'loyalties' are called into question. There will always be the peanut gallery calling for people to be lynched for sneezing with the wrong accent. Conversely, there will always be reasonable people who see people for who they are beyond the labels attached to them.
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Of course you can attack someone for not being in FW and question his loyality - in character. I know, this is tricky to draw the line, but in the end 'being loyal' means doing something. Personally I prefer to have some ingame metrics/ways to do that, because only posting on the forums how perfect one is while spinning ships in the station is kind of 'meh'. Work on furthering the agenda of your given faction, and that's it. A trader trying to compete with Jita on a market might do this for his own economic benefit, but it can be also claimed that he's doing that to weaken the influence of the State on the Capsuleer market (and I think it can be assumed, that non-capsuleer trade is hot in the areas frequented by us elitist jerks, too).
In short, there are plenty of ways to paint your ingame activities into a certain light. (4TH, for example, can be validly attacked ICly, but they can also really claim to develop space to strengthen Caldari/state interests in that area for ze future. ;) ) If you're not doing anything meaty, then you might be better off calling yourself an enthusiast and not a loyalist. :D
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Wait a minute, isn't the "Matari" label pretty much given to any Matari anywhere? Like, Matari in Gallente space or Amarrian slaves are all still Minmatar and are all still technically under the "protection" of the Republic?
In that case, there isn't anything Ava can do to make herself un-Matari. She's definitely still more Matari than an Amarrian slave that knows nothing but the Amarrian Empire.
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She's definitely still more Matari than an Amarrian slave that knows nothing but the Amarrian Empire.
Of course not. The one who willingly turns away from her heritage is much more of a racial traitor than those who have no choice but to do so. ;)
One can make arguments either way, but that is part of the fun of it, and it doesn't really matter either way. You cannot control how others perceive you, just how you perceive yourself. Besides, if all the mud people have to sling towards you is leaving FW, then you tend to be in a pretty good position.
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I'm being facetious. If those Matari aren't real Matari, there's no real justification for the war against the Amarr.
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So, let me ask this; are there reasonable standards, to which the community can hold someone who expects to be seen as a member of a faction "in good standing" and where is the line?
Neither communities nor the people within them are rational entities and so any reasonable standard that may exist would quickly be trampled upon.
The best you can hope for is clearly articulated standards. I'd say the conservative Amarr bloc is the best in that regards, though I've heard many Amarr players/characters complain about said standards. Gallente seem to have the loosest standards; there's less demand that you behave a certain way and adhere to a specific ideology in order to be a 'good Gallente.'
Both Caldari and Minmatar look a bit thorny to me.
I suspect for the Minmatar, the problem is that you're in a cultural conflict with your own center (the Republic). The lack of social authoritarianism means a lack of shared (imposed) viewpoint, which leads to different groups of Minmatar clumping together and coming up with their own model of good Minmatarness.
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If we're being honest with ourselves, all you need to do in order to be a paid-up Caldari Loyalist is work within one of the Megas. If you do that, you're Caldari. If you don't do that, you're really not. That's how the culture works.
Does that mean you have to be in FW? No. But FW is one of the least contentious ways to fly the flag. That said, all you really have to do is claim to be a subsidiary or a contractor for one of the Okusaiken...
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So, yeah.
Now, after 6 months of endless "Rawr, Matari bad!" as a result of the massive derpsplosion that was the Coleile/Brouteau arc, I am now set upon by people who claim Ava isnt "Minny" enough for... for whatever. I went from being the punching bag of the community for the evils of Minny society (that is basically what it was there for a month or two) to this... what?
So, let me ask this; are there reasonable standards, to which the community can hold someone who expects to be seen as a member of a faction "in good standing" and where is the line? At this point, Ava's "minny cred' is pretty well established, frankly, but three people have now made the comment, IC, that somehow she is all bad and not Minny for daring to leave faction warfare/EM.
At what point do reasonable expectations just become derp?
Welp, I just read your IC tread.
I laughed. so hard, and so long - nice work, really awesome.
As for your concerns, I do believe you have proper advice on that part by now. You are well established as "Matari" and that won't change. Much like my toon is an Intaki Federal no matter what any other party would say. Kindly inform them that they can go fuck themselves, because you and YOU ALONE decide what you define yourself as, both IC and OOC.
Let's face it - it won't stop them judging you anyway, we all judge each other, after all.
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If we're being honest with ourselves, all you need to do in order to be a paid-up Caldari Loyalist is work within one of the Megas. If you do that, you're Caldari. If you don't do that, you're really not. That's how the culture works.
Does that mean you have to be in FW? No. But FW is one of the least contentious ways to fly the flag. That said, all you really have to do is claim to be a subsidiary or a contractor for one of the Okusaiken...
In the interests of my own roleplay, I want to point out that's not quite true. You can still be a Caldari State loyalist (If perhaps with more leanings on the "State" and less on the "Caldari") without being a member of one of the megacorporations if you're part of a client state, in the vein of the Achura or the Intaki who eventually formed Mordu's Legion.
Also - And I started wondering this the other day - What if you're a member of the one of the other "big" corporations that aren't megas but are also not clearly defined as subsidaries? Like Perkone, for instance, which the game has presently dumped my corpless self into.
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The idea that a character involved in the militia would consider anyone not involved in the militia to "not be doing their part" and anyone who left the militia to be a "deserter" is an entirely reasonable RP line.
The problem is when it seeps into OOC discussions. People attacking Ava's cred IC are entirely within reasonable character. People attacking her cred in OOC channels are being really silly and wasting what should be an IC interaction.
Also, seriously, y'all are really idealizing the old RP wars. I was there, they weren't that special. The set of wars happening right before the current set have also been talked about as an unattainable golden age for as long as I remember, if you want proof of this, dig through the cesspool of the chatsubo sometime. We blame FW now, 5 years ago people blamed CVA for finishing off U'K's position in Provi as an end to RP wars. 8 years ago they blamed CVA for going to Provi in the first place. 7 Years ago it was the low sec route changes killing the wars. Before my time there was the initial PIE vs Oracle wars being talked about this way, and before that people talked about *beta* as an ideal time. And that is just the Amarr/Matari side of things. The civil wars and such have a similar story. In any given period there were some really really cool things, and then a large amount of tedium.
FW doesn't stop the cool things from happening, it just puts a focus on a specific area of conflict. This is the same area of conflict that was being prioritized for the most part for years prior to the existence of FW. Other conflicts can and should exist outside of this, but it is up to the players to make them.
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In the interests of my own roleplay, I want to point out that's not quite true. You can still be a Caldari State loyalist (If perhaps with more leanings on the "State" and less on the "Caldari") without being a member of one of the megacorporations if you're part of a client state, in the vein of the Achura or the Intaki who eventually formed Mordu's Legion.
Also - And I started wondering this the other day - What if you're a member of the one of the other "big" corporations that aren't megas but are also not clearly defined as subsidaries? Like Perkone, for instance, which the game has presently dumped my corpless self into.
Perkone is a Hyasyoda subsidiary, I believe.
You don't have to be one of the "Big Eight", but you do have to be employed by the State in some regard. Being a Megacorporate employee is simply the most straightforward way. Being in the Caldari Navy, or a menial worker for the CEP, or House of Records... there's plenty of non-aligned State corporations mostly in government and military. Those all count.
If however you are a non-aligned Achuran traditionalists, with loyalty only to the Achuran people and monks and traditions etc... - you're probably not State. I'd wager you're disassociated at best, dissenter at worst.
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In the interests of my own roleplay, I want to point out that's not quite true. You can still be a Caldari State loyalist (If perhaps with more leanings on the "State" and less on the "Caldari") without being a member of one of the megacorporations if you're part of a client state, in the vein of the Achura or the Intaki who eventually formed Mordu's Legion.
Also - And I started wondering this the other day - What if you're a member of the one of the other "big" corporations that aren't megas but are also not clearly defined as subsidaries? Like Perkone, for instance, which the game has presently dumped my corpless self into.
Perkone is a Hyasyoda subsidiary, I believe.
You don't have to be one of the "Big Eight", but you do have to be employed by the State in some regard. Being a Megacorporate employee is simply the most straightforward way. Being in the Caldari Navy, or a menial worker for the CEP, or House of Records... there's plenty of non-aligned State corporations mostly in government and military. Those all count.
If however you are a non-aligned Achuran traditionalists, with loyalty only to the Achuran people and monks and traditions etc... - you're probably not State. I'd wager you're disassociated at best, dissenter at worst.
It's a Hyasyoda subsidary? I'll take your word for it, but I'd appreciate it if you could throw me a source if you have one. I spent the better part of 20 minutes last night digging around for any fluff related to them in that regard and found nothing after it came up in roleplay.
Regarding Achuran traditionalists being dissenters, that'd make pretty much the entire rural population of Saisio III so. And considering that they have an autonomous government seperate from the Megacorporations,
While there is an autonomous Achura government known as the Elder Visionaries, they mostly control the monasteries in the rural areas of the homeworld. The Elder Visionaries are as reclusive and introverted as an entity can be whilst still participating in cluster affairs, primarily in the areas of interstellar religion.
(Source: Caldari Demographics Article)
That the Caldari canonically run errands for when the need arises,
The sacred pieces believed to be from the Rod of the Creator were stolen from under the supervision of the Achur religious order. The Caldari State has pledged enormous resources toward tracking down the thieves. However, the Elder Visionaries of Achura, unsatisfied with the pledge and not trusting of the Caldari government, sought further action.
(Source: Achura Article)
I would say that doesn't seem paticularly likely. They seem to have a "With the State but not Of the State" relationship going on, as best as I can read it.
That's not to say that people can't roleplay the sentiment that it isn't a proper part of Caldari society, but I just wanted to say that the lore isn't quite "Megacorp or bust" in the way Pieter was getting at.
Anyway, sorry to divert from the topic.
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stuff
All good points that I agree with.
As for the Hyasyoda thing... my only source is Ken's little chart thing for it. I'll try and find it and upload it later, but he placed Perkone under Hyasyoda.
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If however you are a non-aligned Achuran traditionalists, with loyalty only to the Achuran people and monks and traditions etc... - you're probably not State. I'd wager you're disassociated at best, dissenter at worst.
Me shakes head.
There is no such thing as an objectifiable State supporter (or other factions). Was Heth State? Was Karsoth Amarr? These things are fluid and dependent upon perspective, one person's hero is another's traitor. Loyalist today, traitor tomorrow as perceptions shift.
I understand the need for people to try to label and classify according to stereotypes, but let's not kid ourselves that the label means anything other than a heavily biased but convenient shortcut.
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That's what is interesting with the Achura case. It's even better like that. All the rural areas (and probably more) of Saisio, and various other non employed Achuras by megas, could rightfully called non Caldari by Deteis or Civire hard working classes for whom working in a mega defines one being a Caldari, or not. They could also for some Achura calling themselves non Caldari, because they just do not care, State or no State. Some might at the contrary call themselves Caldari with perfectly valid counter arguments just because they are at the very least a Caldari protectorate, or something in the vein...
If we're being honest with ourselves, all you need to do in order to be a paid-up Caldari Loyalist is work within one of the Megas. If you do that, you're Caldari. If you don't do that, you're really not. That's how the culture works.
Does that mean you have to be in FW? No. But FW is one of the least contentious ways to fly the flag. That said, all you really have to do is claim to be a subsidiary or a contractor for one of the Okusaiken...
Which becomes even more fun when we take into consideration all the Caldari (with the Rataa legacy) left in the Federation, and living their mostly unchanged old fashioned Caldari lives, and which can also be called Caldari, maybe even more so than the "modern" Caldari, the State itself.
But that's another subject :P
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Which becomes even more fun when we take into consideration all the Caldari (with the Rataa legacy) left in the Federation, and living their mostly unchanged old fashioned Caldari lives, and which can also be called Caldari, maybe even more so than the "modern" Caldari, the State itself.
But that's another subject :P
Considering "Caldari" is a label that the Caldari who left the Federation more or less made up to unite them as a group, and before that they were more prone to identifying by their nation or simple ethnicity and generally being more diverse, the ones who stayed behind probably think the term itself is kinda dumb.
I think Pieter meant "Caldari" in a sense of "State Loyalist" more then anything else, though.
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If we're being honest with ourselves, all you need to do in order to be a paid-up Caldari Loyalist is work within one of the Megas. If you do that, you're Caldari. If you don't do that, you're really not. That's how the culture works.
That would mean Makkal is a Caldari, yet not one Caldari has treated her as such or suggested she is one. The closest anyone has come is Diana Kim referring to her as -haani, which actually predates Makkal joining I-RED.
If being Caldari were a simple binary, no one would ever suggest Ishukone was less Caldari or bad Caldari, but it happens because there's an ideal level of Caldariness the characters are judging one another by.
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Which becomes even more fun when we take into consideration all the Caldari (with the Rataa legacy) left in the Federation, and living their mostly unchanged old fashioned Caldari lives, and which can also be called Caldari, maybe even more so than the "modern" Caldari, the State itself.
But that's another subject :P
Considering "Caldari" is a label that the Caldari who left the Federation more or less made up to unite them as a group, and before that they were more prone to identifying by their nation or simple ethnicity and generally being more diverse, the ones who stayed behind probably think the term itself is kinda dumb.
I think Pieter meant "Caldari" in a sense of "State Loyalist" more then anything else, though.
Mhh, that's an interesting point. I would tend to agree with it, though what made me take it the way I did initially is that they are designated as Caldari in the gallente demographics article.
Caldari
Although the majority of the Caldari population left the Federation in the evacuation of their homeworld, they are technically still a member race due to the fact there are several primarily Caldari member nations around the core systems who did not join the secessionists. This is not considered the most politically fashionable technicality to bring up in polite conversation.
The Caldari who did not leave the union include tribal groups living amongst the Kaalakiota Peaks to citizens living in post-colonial settlements across the Federation. These individuals hold no identity or allegiance to the State whatsoever. Curious to many is the fact that these Caldari are much more traditional compared to those found in the State, at least in terms of Raata cultures and customs. These groups are collectivist in nature and tend to create governments that reflect this. The hands-off attitude the general Federation populace has to these specific Caldari due to long-entrenched sensitivities means these groups generally keep to themselves.
A second group is made up of Caldari migrants from the State, who have left their home nation for a variety of reasons. This typically includes Caldari who were exiled or those who left the State for ideological disagreements (especially those who disagreed with the rise of Tibus Heth[11]). Whatever the case, these Caldari are generally considered traitors by their counterparts back in the State. They may retain their identity independent of the State’s definitions, or blend into a wider Gallente melting pot.
Thus the thing i'm wondering is when was that Caldari term created ? After the secession ? Before ? Is is tied to the State or to the race ?
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If however you are a non-aligned Achuran traditionalists, with loyalty only to the Achuran people and monks and traditions etc... - you're probably not State. I'd wager you're disassociated at best, dissenter at worst.
Me shakes head.
There is no such thing as an objectifiable State supporter (or other factions). Was Heth State? Was Karsoth Amarr? These things are fluid and dependent upon perspective, one person's hero is another's traitor. Loyalist today, traitor tomorrow as perceptions shift.
I understand the need for people to try to label and classify according to stereotypes, but let's not kid ourselves that the label means anything other than a heavily biased but convenient shortcut.
You start the post criticizing Kat for treating an opinion like an objective statement, and then end the post treating your opinion like an objective statement.
You don't find meaning in labels. Other people find meaning in labels. They are not 'kidding' themselves; they simply have a different value system.
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Which becomes even more fun when we take into consideration all the Caldari (with the Rataa legacy) left in the Federation, and living their mostly unchanged old fashioned Caldari lives, and which can also be called Caldari, maybe even more so than the "modern" Caldari, the State itself.
But that's another subject :P
Considering "Caldari" is a label that the Caldari who left the Federation more or less made up to unite them as a group, and before that they were more prone to identifying by their nation or simple ethnicity and generally being more diverse, the ones who stayed behind probably think the term itself is kinda dumb.
I think Pieter meant "Caldari" in a sense of "State Loyalist" more then anything else, though.
Mhh, that's an interesting point. I would tend to agree with it, though what made me take it the way I did initially is that they are designated as Caldari in the gallente demographics article.
Caldari
Although the majority of the Caldari population left the Federation in the evacuation of their homeworld, they are technically still a member race due to the fact there are several primarily Caldari member nations around the core systems who did not join the secessionists. This is not considered the most politically fashionable technicality to bring up in polite conversation.
The Caldari who did not leave the union include tribal groups living amongst the Kaalakiota Peaks to citizens living in post-colonial settlements across the Federation. These individuals hold no identity or allegiance to the State whatsoever. Curious to many is the fact that these Caldari are much more traditional compared to those found in the State, at least in terms of Raata cultures and customs. These groups are collectivist in nature and tend to create governments that reflect this. The hands-off attitude the general Federation populace has to these specific Caldari due to long-entrenched sensitivities means these groups generally keep to themselves.
A second group is made up of Caldari migrants from the State, who have left their home nation for a variety of reasons. This typically includes Caldari who were exiled or those who left the State for ideological disagreements (especially those who disagreed with the rise of Tibus Heth[11]). Whatever the case, these Caldari are generally considered traitors by their counterparts back in the State. They may retain their identity independent of the State’s definitions, or blend into a wider Gallente melting pot.
Thus the thing i'm wondering is when was that Caldari term created ? After the secession ? Before ? Is is tied to the State or to the race ?
The terms Gallente and Caldari were first used when the exploration ship from Gallentia - later re-named Gallente Prime - landed on the world who would be named "Caldari Prime" by the future secessionists. The locals used the term "Caldari" as a catch-all phrase for all of them, while the Gallente crew's captain refereed to her own people as "Gallente" as a similar term to include all of the natives of Gallentia. A few hundred years later there was the whole war-business and the "Caldari State" was founded and their homeworld re-named "Caldari" partially to spite the Union they were leaving, IIRC.
The "Loyalist" Deteis/Civire/others who had settled on a number of other worlds and remained when the majority of their homeworld's people left, likely don't think of themselves as "Caldari" at all because the term is technically the same as "State citizen" in function and meaning. If you are a person who were born in the State and later move the the Fed for whatever reason, you would likely be well served with getting used to not using the term to refer to yourself anymore. Ofc, there is likely also a good chance there are plenty of people who consider themselves to be the true Caldari, considering themselves as such because they stuck around in the original homelands while all the fake ones left and set up a false homeland, proclaiming that they were the only proper Caldari around, etc. Might be some fun tension and RP to be had between the Fed and State loyal Caldari, but I can't recall many, if any, biting on this possible angle over the years.
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That's a shame isnt it ? Seri tried to bring up that once or twice iirc, but apparently people didn't really want to hear it.
Also I don't think why the Caldari that remained would not call themselves Caldari, is the term predates the secession. They could, they could not... After all they all called themselves Caldari before the secession, secessionists or not no ? I'm not sure if we have concrete sources over that...
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From Minmatar cred thread suddenly turned to what makes you real Caldari... I am not saying the thread was hijacked, but it's possible the thread was hijacked.
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From Minmatar cred thread suddenly turned to what makes you real Caldari... I am not saying the thread was hijacked, but it's possible the thread was hijacked.
The number of hijackings we get around here, we're lucky the TSA haven't put security checkpoints onto the boards.
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From Minmatar cred thread suddenly turned to what makes you real Caldari... I am not saying the thread was hijacked, but it's possible the thread was hijacked.
The number of hijackings we get around here, we're lucky the TSA haven't put security checkpoints onto the boards.
You wouldn't see any difference in thread hijackings. All they'd do is sit around looking useless and wasting space and tax dollars, just like IRL.
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We don't need the TSA. Vince handles all the groping around here.
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You wouldn't see any difference in thread hijackings. All they'd do is sit around looking useless and wasting space and tax dollars, just like IRL.
Not true; they'd also randomly feel people up, rifle through their belongings, ask stupid questions, and occasionally deny people the right to post for having more than 25ml of contact lens fluid on them.
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You wouldn't see any difference in thread hijackings. All they'd do is sit around looking useless and wasting space and tax dollars, just like IRL.
Not true; they'd also randomly feel people up, rifle through their belongings, ask stupid questions, and occasionally deny people the right to post for having more than 25ml of contact lens fluid on them.
That falls under the "wasting space and tax dollars" part.
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I assign to you, Ava, full Minmatar Cred because I've roleplayed with you and I have to say, you've done a LOT to flesh out Minmatar society in a very immersing manner.
Ten points to Surionen!
[spoiler](http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/v1/designs/12397540,width=178,height=178/Disregard-Haters,-Remain-Adorable.png)[/spoiler]
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3 Amarr enter a room. Each of them immediately thinks one of the others is a heretic, and starts trying to gain the support of the other one, against the "heretic".
3 Caldari enter a room. Each of them believes the other two are dishonorable and confront them with this accusation. Then, all of them realise they are dishonorable, for having thought the other two were dishonorable, and everyone drinks the tea and dies.
3 Gallente enter a room. The first set a trend, the second did it ironically, the third leads the revival.
3 Minmatar enter a room. They all get naked and compare tattoos, arguing that their Voluval mark is superior. A fist fight ensues.
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3 Amarr enter a room. Each of them immediately thinks one of the others is a heretic, and starts trying to gain the support of the other one, against the "heretic".
3 Caldari enter a room. Each of them believes the other two are dishonorable and confront them with this accusation. Then, all of them realise they are dishonorable, for having thought the other two were dishonorable, and everyone drinks the tea and dies.
3 Gallente enter a room. The first set a trend, the second did it ironically, the third leads the revival.
3 Minmatar enter a room. They all get naked and compare tattoos, arguing that their Voluval mark is superior. A fist fight ensues.
You forgot to add one more thing for the last point: The Brutor wins.
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If you don't have haters, you aren't doing it right.
Seriously.
The voices get quieter and quieter and their points more imagined over time though. You actions speak plenty, your world building is more or less synonymous with player prime fiction for your chosen Tribe/clan/faction/etc. Your channel is the most active and most recognized Minmatar channel.
Your Ava is the very most Ava.
So relax =) What you are hearing is the sound of those who are jealous.
(http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/bccbcf08d9c518b06bff68c589f4b6c5/http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac235/seansheehan/haters-gonna-hate.jpg)
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If you don't have haters, you aren't doing it right.
Seriously.
The voices get quieter and quieter and their points more imagined over time though. You actions speak plenty, your world building is more or less synonymous with player prime fiction for your chosen Tribe/clan/faction/etc. Your channel is the most active and most recognized Minmatar channel.
Your Ava is the very most Ava.
So relax =) What you are hearing is the sound of those who are jealous.
(http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/bccbcf08d9c518b06bff68c589f4b6c5/http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac235/seansheehan/haters-gonna-hate.jpg)
Basically this ^
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I assign to you, Ava, full Minmatar Cred because I've roleplayed with you and I have to say, you've done a LOT to flesh out Minmatar society in a very immersing manner.
Ten points to Surionen!
[spoiler](http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/v1/designs/12397540,width=178,height=178/Disregard-Haters,-Remain-Adorable.png)[/spoiler]
Awww!
TY!
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Awww!
TY!
What, no thanks for the rest of this tread where we effectively say the same thing in a symphonic chorus and sing your praises?
I feel left out :cry:
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Awww!
TY!
What, no thanks for the rest of this tread where we effectively say the same thing in a symphonic chorus and sing your praises?
I feel left out :cry:
Its because you didn't include a cute picture.
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Ava, I can't speak for anyone else who might have attacked your credit recently but I know I was one of them. I'll own the heat for that. OOC-wise I've had no issue with you, I think you're a great voice of Minmatar.
I'd ask you be easy on Isis; her edginess is sadly her character and like the others put here, she's going to hate on everyone regardless for something. It's something that no matter how bold, truth, or deceptively false her statements are that is going to take away substance from her arguments often.
It's a risk to take something she says as anything more than a grain of salt. There's a lot of me that loves that part about her, she gets to break out conflict everywhere, even if it's but one extremist view. Also why she's one to adore characters like Diana Kim. Sure she gets no social points and people come to loath her quickly but that's the ultimate price of her.
In terms of eating into Isis's argument:
Her points against Ava surround a belief that Ava doesn't/won't go political with her pride of Minmatar. That Ava won't use the vast arsenal of the different Minmatar societies (many of which we know fight eachother) to pick up a superiority complex, lead, and talk down on other societies.
In summary: Isis is just mad because Ava isn't more like her. Especially where she does see so much of herself within Ava.
Pretty much just that. An IC dilemma. As said, can't speak for anyone else but will say never once was it ever about what kind of banner you were flying. Coming from someone presently serving within the State, I find that's just stupid.
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Ava, I can't speak for anyone else who might have attacked your credit recently but I know I was one of them. I'll own the heat for that. OOC-wise I've had no issue with you, I think you're a great voice of Minmatar.
I'd ask you be easy on Isis; her edginess is sadly her character and like the others put here, she's going to hate on everyone regardless for something. It's something that no matter how bold, truth, or deceptively false her statements are that is going to take away substance from her arguments often.
It's a risk to take something she says as anything more than a grain of salt. There's a lot of me that loves that part about her, she gets to break out conflict everywhere, even if it's but one extremist view. Also why she's one to adore characters like Diana Kim. Sure she gets no social points and people come to loath her quickly but that's the ultimate price of her.
In terms of eating into Isis's argument:
Her points against Ava surround a belief that Ava doesn't/won't go political with her pride of Minmatar. That Ava won't use the vast arsenal of the different Minmatar societies (many of which we know fight eachother) to pick up a superiority complex, lead, and talk down on other societies.
In summary: Isis is just mad because Ava isn't more like her. Especially where she does see so much of herself within Ava.
Pretty much just that. An IC dilemma. As said, can't speak for anyone else but will say never once was it ever about what kind of banner you were flying. Coming from someone presently serving within the State, I find that's just stupid.
/me hugs
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It's always the same tyranny of the mainstream vs marginals. Don't worry too much, it's normal...
Late to the party here, but yeah. Fuck mainstream.
I caught a lot of shit over Havo's behaviours (and as soon as I get going on my current plan, I expect more along those lines). There was actually quite a lot of flack from EM over Havo's exploits back then. This, however, was working as intended and Havo is also quite well established in his position in what is considered the Minnie bloc. An outsider/fringe character who isn't lightly trifled with because of his/my penchant for dropping everything and clicking the wardec button. To be honest, there're a few of you who're lucky I haven't got access to the wardec button right now...
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You ever wardec fellow Matari? :twisted:
Btw, regulated wardecs, especially agreed upon ones that get to be made mutual (similar to RvsB and how they do their war) I think is incredibly healthy and gives you something fun within your group to do and catalog.
And if there are players who can't afford to take part, we put them on a list of "blue" to the opposing party and even draw an IC reason for how they're able to evade. (Shadow broker secret contacts, etc.) xD
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No, never dec'd fellow Matari. At that time, Havo had himself convinced that he was all about the 'cause' and such. However, he did want to wardec Electus Matari for saying mean things to/about him in his IGS press releases, but given that his corp consisted of 6 pilots and -EM- consisted of... well, many more than six pilots, he chose to keep his guns pointed at Amarrians and their supporters :D
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No, never dec'd fellow Matari. At that time, Havo had himself convinced that he was all about the 'cause' and such. However, he did want to wardec Electus Matari for saying mean things to/about him in his IGS press releases, but given that his corp consisted of 6 pilots and -EM- consisted of... well, many more than six pilots, he chose to keep his guns pointed at Amarrians and their supporters :D
The thing is. It is possible for a skilled small group to run rings around a more diverse large group. If you had chosen that path both of us would have had an interesting time of it.
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I agree; all of our extortion/terrorism decs in Amarr highsec were against corps with much larger rosters. The problem we would've been facing against -EM- was that you were/are also experienced in guerilla tactics. We clearly would've gotten creamed :)
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No, never dec'd fellow Matari. At that time, Havo had himself convinced that he was all about the 'cause' and such. However, he did want to wardec Electus Matari for saying mean things to/about him in his IGS press releases, but given that his corp consisted of 6 pilots and -EM- consisted of... well, many more than six pilots, he chose to keep his guns pointed at Amarrians and their supporters :D
You. I like you. Can we be friends?
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Don't anyone ever forget a small but dedicated group of pvpers will absolutely demolish a large group of unmotivated players.
The rule of 'thirds' is always in effect for eve.
Take your opponents alliance/corp official member count and divide by at least three. Reduce further by number of pilots you'll actually see in space.
If you have 5 or 6 active dedicated pvpers you'd be super surprised how much larger groups you can consistently trash.
I was ransoming huge groups of industrial corps and mobs in highsec with maybe 9 or 10 active pilots for a long time.
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Large groups usually have the risk to see a lot of their players either novice, badly coordinated, or just have a lot of non pvp members that can be attacked. Not that it is always the case since some of them are actually extremely well organized, but even with that in mind...
/me has a lot of bad and good experiences on the matter, the former in a big alliance and the later in a small corp.