Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Lyn Farel on 17 Oct 2013, 15:32
-
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286903 (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286903)
As shown here, I can see that a lot jumped on the occasion and assumed that the Federation - without even speaking of its countless federal states - have a bail system for imprisoned people before their trial... I assume that it was a mistake considering the notion of bail is almost exclusively British iirc, but maybe I missed a PF bit stating it is gallente federal law as well ?
Genuinely asking here, before saying anything stupid ICly...
-
It's interesting that people are quick to assert that the Gallente are French and the Fed govt is some US analogue, when AFAIK the French and American legal systems are VERY different from one another.
It's why I'm having Seriphyn doing a Cartman-style "What the hell is a hate crime?", in a subtle effort to encourage people to not source RL legal concepts so eagerly. It's more than likely pushing it a bit, but I dunno.
-
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286903 (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286903)
As shown here, I can see that a lot jumped on the occasion and assumed that the Federation - without even speaking of its countless federal states - have a bail system for imprisoned people before their trial... I assume that it was a mistake considering the notion of bail is almost exclusively British iirc, but maybe I missed a PF bit stating it is gallente federal law as well ?
Absolutely this.
-
It is worth noting though that PF also says this
The system is not known for being fair in their dealings with the Federation’s citizens, as it almost seems like there are two different penal systems in use depending on the wealth of the accused. But even if the rich can expect some leniency in sentences imposed by the courts they don’t get preferential treatment in the investigation of the crime, meaning that you are just as likely to be caught for a crime whether you’re at the top or the bottom of the social ladder. And history shows that the social rejection by their peers is even more efficient in punishing the rich than a few years more or less in prison.
Though it does not speak about bails, it clearly mentions that if you are rich, you can expect some leniency and comfort, even if it will not buy you impunity.
-
So dissenting-but-not view. While bail is definitely a presumption, it also stands that there are a lot of gaps in PF about day-to-day life and the nuts and bolts of finance, government, etc. Using an existing legal system makes it much easier to frame discussion. Hell, I know when I was doing the hard-to-prove-embezzlement argument re: Heth, I was consulting with some lawyer friends about US corporate governance and the difficulties involved in establishing criminal charges.
-
the notion of bail is almost exclusively British iirc, but maybe I missed a PF bit stating it is gallente federal law as well ?
It's interesting that people are quick to assert that the Gallente are French and the Fed govt is some US analogue, when AFAIK the French and American legal systems are VERY different from one another.
Both the British and American justice systems have the common heritage of common law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law).
Thus if the macro-concepts of the US Federal Government is the basis for the Gallente Federation, then the concept of bail is not out of place.
By contrast, civil law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_(legal_system)) is the system used in much of the non-anglo world. It has its origins in Roman Law.
-
It is worth noting though that PF also says this
The system is not known for being fair in their dealings with the Federation’s citizens, as it almost seems like there are two different penal systems in use depending on the wealth of the accused. But even if the rich can expect some leniency in sentences imposed by the courts they don’t get preferential treatment in the investigation of the crime, meaning that you are just as likely to be caught for a crime whether you’re at the top or the bottom of the social ladder. And history shows that the social rejection by their peers is even more efficient in punishing the rich than a few years more or less in prison.
Though it does not speak about bails, it clearly mentions that if you are rich, you can expect some leniency and comfort, even if it will not buy you impunity.
Surely that's more aimed at how western culture lets the rich and famous off lightly for the same charges that see the average Joe spend time in prison. Shoplifting, assault, auto related crimes etc tend to be fines and community service, you only need to look at the shit that happens with footballers in England, if you or I did that we'd be doing 3-4 months at Her Majesty's pleasure.
-
To bring a little more granularity though, precedential authority also exists in civil law systems, but probably not to the scale of common law.
So dissenting-but-not view. While bail is definitely a presumption, it also stands that there are a lot of gaps in PF about day-to-day life and the nuts and bolts of finance, government, etc. Using an existing legal system makes it much easier to frame discussion. Hell, I know when I was doing the hard-to-prove-embezzlement argument re: Heth, I was consulting with some lawyer friends about US corporate governance and the difficulties involved in establishing criminal charges.
/rant
That is exactly where my gripe lies. Everyone is assuming that it's an US based system. Why not Iranian then ? Why not Japanese ? Singapore ? Whatever ?
People pick up US because it's the thing they know best. Well, good for them, but at the same time you alienate every other culture in the process. I personally find it immersion breaking to see people assuming there are bails in some Gallente system. How would you react if someone started to associate it with an alien judicial system ? It's the same for me here.
Maybe there is bails in this case, maybe not...
It's an issue to which I may be overeacting to at times, but it is pretty similar to the use of non standard units (<- foreigners don't speak in their native language in RP for obvious reasons, that's the same here) and everything that often makes roleplay completely US centric and at times very hermetic to foreigners. I have noticed that a lot of people tend to think that because it's how it's done in the US world, then it must be similar in the rest of the world...
/rant
-
/rant
That is exactly where my gripe lies. Everyone is assuming that it's an US based system. Why not Iranian then ? Why not Japanese ? Singapore ? Whatever ?
People pick up US because it's the thing they know best. Well, good for them, but at the same time you alienate every other culture in the process. I personally find it immersion breaking to see people assuming there are bails in some Gallente system. How would you react if someone started to associate it with an alien judicial system ? It's the same for me here.
Maybe there is bails in this case, maybe not...
It's an issue to which I may be overeacting to at times, but it is pretty similar to the use of non standard units (<- foreigners don't speak in their native language in RP for obvious reasons, that's the same here) and everything that often makes roleplay completely US centric and at times very hermetic to foreigners. I have noticed that a lot of people tend to think that because it's how it's done in the US world, then it must be similar in the rest of the world...
/rant
Aaaayup. GalFed has similarities in equal measures to the US and EU. So European examples should be perfectly acceptable. In fact, closer to the US...where all US states have pretty much identical government structures (Senate/House, Supreme Court, Governor), EU states have constitutional monarchies, parliamentary systems, presidential systems, etc...and it's outright said constitutional monarchies exist in the GalFed (Caille is one IIRC).
With that in mind, there's no reason to assume bail exists everywhere in the GalFed. Just because it's US-style Federal at the top doesn't mean all the states are similar to the American ones. In fact, I'd say it has a US-style FEDERAL government with EU-style STATE governments.
-
Historically, bail was a function of the common-law in those countries falling in the british sphere of influence. That being said, it is now recognized globally as a human right. The International Convenant on Civil and Political Rights, adopted by the United Nations in 1966, specifies the right to bail in Article 9, Section 3. of course, it hasn't been uniformly implemented in all countries, or it may not be called "bail" but exists under another name but the trend is for international recognition. As a concept it is no longer confined to the US, or the Commonwealth.
-
Of course, it hasn't been uniformly implemented in all countries, or it may not be called "bail" but exists under another name but the trend is for international recognition.
All true. That said, Australia - another country whose justice system is based around common law and who claims to abide by UN conventions on civil rights - has legislature in place enabling those suspected of direct or indirect involvement with crimes that threaten national security to be held indefinitely without charge provided that a regular judicial review of the case and its progress is conducted/rubber stamped. We also have mandatory sentencing laws that target some fairly specific sub-groups within our society.
The conventions are there, but they're also pretty simple to either ignore or - more commonly in western democracies - work around with legislation citing self-governance and national security as its basic premise.
-
I looked up a bit more on the subject and apparently bails exist in France too.
Now I feel a bit dumb from bringing up the subject.
-
I keep reading the title as Juicy Balls.
-
I keep reading the title as Juicy Balls.
Well great thanks for that now I cant help but see the same :|
-
I keep reading the title as Juicy Balls.
Glad I'm not the only one
-
See I read it as Judicial balls. As if you need a pair of grapefruits to be judgemental of other people.
-
See I read it as Judicial balls. As if you need a pair of grapefruits to be judgemental of other people.
^Same here :L^
-
That's perfectly normal. You should check your eyes Vince and Kat :P
-
JUICY BALLS
-
Judicial balls for me too, lol.
Somehow this was more saucy than juicy balls.
-
you assholes changed the title in your replies. You had me genuinely concerned for a few seconds.
-
I saw Judicial balls too... Lots of people in black gowns and wigs dancing away...
-
That's perfectly normal. You should check your eyes Vince and Kat :P
Oh you troll....
-
Bail is one of those things that's just sort of sensible unless you actually want to be keeping every person who gets arrested locked up, at great cost, until trial, which can be and usually is months away.
I'd have been very surprised if it were common law only.
As an aside, people accused of petty crimes (misdemeanors, gross misdemeanors) who are unable to afford bail where I live have an enormously high rate of taking plea bargains to get their butts out of jail sooner rather than later. The alternative is for them to serve what is likely to be the whole sentence while awaiting trial, meaning that the trial boils down to a question of whether the incarceration was just or whether it was mildly unfortunate.
Unless conviction will get you deported, there's usually not much reason to stick it out, guilty or innocent.