Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Odelya on 06 Oct 2013, 00:34
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Hey,
reading this (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=283938) I found it quite amusing, but also unsuitable for the IGS. It is basically an OOC related issue presented in an IC way. It is just not possible to substantiate that something is not substantiated. Of course, there are also no ways to substantiate claims, not even for something like “I am sitting in my garden drinking coffee”. There is no way to substantiate that “Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is the Secure Commerce Commission registered conglomerate of subsidiary private military corporations acting in the interests of Kaalakiota. Wiyrkomi and Lai Dai Corporations” etc. etc. But what is the basis of rp then?
So what are we going to make out of this? Shall we start a game like this:
“You are not a duchess/subsidary of Lai Dai, because you can’t prove it”
“Look it up in the book of records/at the secure commerce commission”
“I did, but I didn’t find you”
“You took the wrong book of records/secure commerce commission”
“No, I didn’t, you are a lier!”
“No, you are, you are!”
As a consequence I think Veikitamo Gesakaarin’s posting is little different from what she is criticising, it is basically doing the same, but on a meta level. The big difference however is that those “unsubstantiated claims” are enriching our rp and stories, while the critique is basically destroying the foundations of it.
I have nothing against a bashing of Odelya—but please in way Nicoletta, Rodj and Anabella did it.
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Roleplay is, at it's incredibly dorky core, essentially the practice of making things up and believing in the things other people make up.
If we stop doing the latter at all (as opposed to just overlooking the occasional thing or two that suspends our disbelief), the entire thing falls to pieces, and we just become a bunch of children playing make-believe with ourselves, in my opinion.
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I think world building for noble Amarr chars is a pretty important thing. Something like 2/3rds of the True Amarr characters are supposed to be noble, so its really not overboard to have many many different backgrounds that involve owning large chunks of real estate.
I think a good rule of thumb is avoid crossing lines that would give you more power in game than you actually have as a player. If you keep your ranks at "Holder" rather than getting too elaborate with the fancier titles and if you keep your holdings as relatively small in the grand scheme of things you are doing a good (and neccessary) job creating a noble character without stepping on too many toes.
I am really not a fan of the "yes you are"/"no you aren't" style of argument that was one of the themes of the threads being mocked by Veik. There has to be a better way to handle that sort of conflict, though I haven't quite put my finger on what can be done once a disagreement like that gets going. I tried to move it away by making the whole discussion about bigger things, but while I have had fun trotting out 8 year old anti-tetrimon arguments and lots of fire and brimstone... I don't think I was quite able to drag the discussion far enough from the "Yes you are, no you aren't dynamic."
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Hey,
reading this (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=283938) I found it quite amusing, but also unsuitable for the IGS. It is basically an OOC related issue presented in an IC way. It is just not possible to substantiate that something is not substantiated. Of course, there are also no ways to substantiate claims, not even for something like “I am sitting in my garden drinking coffee”. There is no way to substantiate that “Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is the Secure Commerce Commission registered conglomerate of subsidiary private military corporations acting in the interests of Kaalakiota. Wiyrkomi and Lai Dai Corporations” etc. etc. But what is the basis of rp then?
So what are we going to make out of this? Shall we start a game like this:
“You are not a duchess/subsidary of Lai Dai, because you can’t prove it”
“Look it up in the book of records/at the secure commerce commission”
“I did, but I didn’t find you”
“You took the wrong book of records/secure commerce commission”
“No, I didn’t, you are a lier!”
“No, you are, you are!”
As a consequence I think Veikitamo Gesakaarin’s posting is little different from what she is criticising, it is basically doing the same, but on a meta level. The big difference however is that those “unsubstantiated claims” are enriching our rp and stories, while the critique is basically destroying the foundations of it.
I have nothing against a bashing of Odelya—but please in way Nicoletta, Rodj and Anabella did it.
Actually... Pyre Falcon's affiliation with Kaalakiota is CANON. Falcon substantiated it during the legal case that kicked off Heth's slide from power.
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It is basically an OOC related issue presented in an IC way.
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As a consequence I think Veikitamo Gesakaarin’s posting is little different from what she is criticising, it is basically doing the same, but on a meta level.
I have to admit that after a read-through of the IGS posting this was the feel I got from it too. It's amusing and clever, but at its core it seems to be an IC complaint on something that Veik's player has railed OOCly against in another thread on these boards.
That said, it doesn't make it wrong and I'm not convinced it's destroying the foundation of anything - particularly if one can point to in-character examples of what the post is satirising.
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It mostly depends of what Veik(C) - or Veik(P) ? that's the damn issue there, it's OOC/IC bleedover - is targeting, either the quiet holder in his lonely tiny asteroid or the son of Jamyl... The issue I resent is that it's basically targeting both and putting them all in the same basket while remaining very vague and elusive about it, like he has done in the other backstage thread.
Hey,
reading this (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=283938) I found it quite amusing, but also unsuitable for the IGS. It is basically an OOC related issue presented in an IC way. It is just not possible to substantiate that something is not substantiated. Of course, there are also no ways to substantiate claims, not even for something like “I am sitting in my garden drinking coffee”. There is no way to substantiate that “Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is the Secure Commerce Commission registered conglomerate of subsidiary private military corporations acting in the interests of Kaalakiota. Wiyrkomi and Lai Dai Corporations” etc. etc. But what is the basis of rp then?
So what are we going to make out of this? Shall we start a game like this:
“You are not a duchess/subsidary of Lai Dai, because you can’t prove it”
“Look it up in the book of records/at the secure commerce commission”
“I did, but I didn’t find you”
“You took the wrong book of records/secure commerce commission”
“No, I didn’t, you are a lier!”
“No, you are, you are!”
As a consequence I think Veikitamo Gesakaarin’s posting is little different from what she is criticising, it is basically doing the same, but on a meta level. The big difference however is that those “unsubstantiated claims” are enriching our rp and stories, while the critique is basically destroying the foundations of it.
I have nothing against a bashing of Odelya—but please in way Nicoletta, Rodj and Anabella did it.
Actually... Pyre Falcon's affiliation with Kaalakiota is CANON. Falcon substantiated it during the legal case that kicked off Heth's slide from power.
I didn't know that...
Do not take it as an offense but that's a consequential fallacy. It's not because Falcon canonized it that Pyre Falcon considered itself to be associated with KK, it's because PYRE started since the very beginning to say that they were affiliated with KK, and then did sufficient deeds ingame to attract Falcon's attention, for him to eventually legitimize their KK status. In the end, PYRE did the exact same thing at the beginning before it being canonized.
Unfortunately for half if not more factioned RPers who also claim to be a subsidiary of X, or being mandated by X, this is barely going to happen anytime soon. To me it feels pretty much like "I got legitimized by CCP, no matter how it was before, and now I feel that I have the right to curbstomp everyone that has yet to be legitimized by Falcon".
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I don't presume to speak for Veikitamo. I don't presume to defend what he wrote or explain why he wrote it.
That said... That said...
Whether you like it or not. Whether you approve of it or not. Whether you enjoy it or not. Pyre Falcon's relationship with Kaalakiota has received 'official' sanction. As you say, it was a sort of reward for steadfast support of a faction through forum posts, through fighting in the warzone and through participation in live-events.
Now - understand. I'm not claiming some sort of pre-eminence because of this and I'm not claiming that we 'earned' it where others haven't. I'm just pointing out that when Pyre Falcon claims to be associated with Kaalakiota NOW, it does so with some degree of justification in canon.
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Actually I rather like it. It is good to see that some RP organizations continue to be acknowledged by CCP in some way for what they do, like PIE, PYRE, I-RED, CVA, EM, UK, etc.
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At some level, the majority of - if not all - IC actions are based off OOC motives.
If I want my character to go camp a gate in null-sec, mine in highsec, chat with people in RP channels or whatever else I decide to do the in-game/in-character action starts with me logging into EVE and deciding as a player what my plan for today is.
What I then do is frame an IC motive around that.
I don't really see that Veik's done anything different here, which is why I don't think it's wrong in any sense. Veik's player may have decided they had enough and instead of bringing it here they decided to frame it ICly which is entirely their perogative. It looks like drama I don't really want to get involved in ICly so I'm going to stay out of it on the IGS but it's not something I'm going to criticise them for OOCly either.
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Note that there's no material benefit to PYRE being "legit," unless you're of the opinion that a few mentions in colored text is manna from heaven you can't live your life without. It doesn't place us in a position of authority over other double-K affiliated entities, or let us make claims about their legitimacy in any way.
As for the proliferation and inflation of Amarrian nobility claims - eh. Well. I have a soft spot for average Joes, and the low numbers of visible Amarrians who aren't dukes, bishops or what-have-you does irk me a little. It's a legitimate background option, but it seems like a tragedy of the commons in progress.
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Note that there's no material benefit to PYRE being "legit," unless you're of the opinion that a few mentions in colored text is manna from heaven you can't live your life without. It doesn't place us in a position of authority over other double-K affiliated entities, or let us make claims about their legitimacy in any way.
As for the proliferation and inflation of Amarrian nobility claims - eh. Well. I have a soft spot for average Joes, and the low numbers of visible Amarrians who aren't dukes, bishops or what-have-you does irk me a little. It's a legitimate background option, but it seems like a tragedy of the commons in progress.
That said, how influential is your average Joe in the empire & what are their chances of getting into capsule training? I take your point though. It would be nice to see more of the poor sentient made good alongside all the children of privilege.
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Yes, it would be nice. I always regret not having made one.
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Thinking about it I suspect I might have made Arnulf a bit of the exception. He's the child of a soldier (who is now a junior officer) and a middle-rank Urban Management official. I suspect that puts him comfortably in the top 10% of Minmatar society even before he became a capsuleer.
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As for the proliferation and inflation of Amarrian nobility claims - eh. Well. I have a soft spot for average Joes, and the low numbers of visible Amarrians who aren't dukes, bishops or what-have-you does irk me a little. It's a legitimate background option, but it seems like a tragedy of the commons in progress.
The thing is that Amarrian capsuleers are not average Joes. Going by the in-game backgrounds, Amarrian capsuleers are nobility or highly-successful wealthy commoners. It's a very class-conscious society, the only non-wealthy commoners who could actually get funding would likely be those who have caught the eye of someone of higher class. The government almost certainly wouldn't fund (and probably wouldn't even test) the common man. This is very fitting when considering that Amarr typically have very few capsuleers compared to other races (going by race distribution statistics).
I do believe people should stop trying to reach for greater and greater heights, though. Full system and planetary Holders just doesn't seem all that likely to me. In fact, I would expect that most Amarrian capsuleers would be lesser sons and daughters, those who don't get the Holder title but are still noble by blood relation.
Also, the idea that people can't have any kind of association with a NPC corporation just because they can't join that corporation in-game is absurd to me. Especially since players used to be able to, and this was only removed later as a means of consolidating players into a few individual NPC corporations. Which brings to mind... are we going to start claiming that characters who are in the NPC corporations are actually IN those corporations ICly, even when it makes no sense? Come on. Let's not stifle creativity here.
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We're playing a game that gives you quite a lot of in-game opportunities to create content and gain achievements, so it's a bit of a shame that so much 'worldbuilding' is done outside the game's sphere and in a scale that is super important. There's a difference between, say, the description of colonies and entities within 4th's sphere of influence and me creating a character that is a super important head honcho of a few million people in his off time, hidden somewhere unreachable ( by in game means ).
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That said, how influential is your average Joe in the empire & what are their chances of getting into capsule training? I take your point though. It would be nice to see more of the poor sentient made good alongside all the children of privilege.
Privilege provides easier access to the technology, and greater visibility for candidates. There's going to be an inherent lack of poorer candidates as a result, due to proper/superior standards of healthcare, education etc.
Not saying it's a bad idea to have children from poorer backgrounds, but there's a strong case for there being a limited number, not a vase swathe of them.
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Which brings to mind... are we going to start claiming that characters who are in the NPC corporations are actually IN those corporations ICly, even when it makes no sense? Come on. Let's not stifle creativity here.
But everybody knows i'm a secret agent for the Brutor Tribe !
We're playing a game that gives you quite a lot of in-game opportunities to create content and gain achievements, so it's a bit of a shame that so much 'worldbuilding' is done outside the game's sphere and in a scale that is super important. There's a difference between, say, the description of colonies and entities within 4th's sphere of influence and me creating a character that is a super important head honcho of a few million people in his off time, hidden somewhere unreachable ( by in game means ).
To be honest i've done plenty of that in the past. Created my own corp, got involved in RP, got the executorship of a nullsec alliance over a constellation, got my hours of glory as FC in cleaning Solitude biggest (actually rather sloppy) alliance of pirates, then added my print in FW and IGS flaming shenanigans.
I find that a bit limited and boring these days though. Ingame mechanics are not always the best RP material, sadly. Sometimes they work, sometimes, they are just bland (i'm looking at you FW). But overall whatever you do ingame, it is mostly non consequential, or vain. What becomes interesting is not the fight between the Gallente Militia and the Caldari Militia over Mantenault per se, but what happens on the planet because of that... And what happened on the planet was pure world building, as usual.
However i'm not sure to see which world building events that are super scale important you are referring to ? We may see from time to time new characters that claim to have killed millions or that kind of things, but that seems pretty localized and not very impactful... I don't see much of these.
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It's fairly easy to suspend disbelief of a character or organization claiming loyalty or membership to an official NPC group. Also more people are willing to accept such claims because they expect other players to accept their character's claims of allegiance.
It takes a bit more work to believe a character claiming ownership of large territories. It can be done however, through repetition of the claim and in-game behavior. If somebody says they own a system, and they are consistently there, doing whatever it is they do, it's a bit more believable. It's even better if it's null and they can actually own it.
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There is no way to substantiate that “Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is the Secure Commerce Commission registered conglomerate of subsidiary private military corporations acting in the interests of Kaalakiota. Wiyrkomi and Lai Dai Corporations” etc. etc. But what is the basis of rp then?
Actually, in this case, I think the statement you quoted can very much be substantiated.
The SCC is a part of CONCORD that manages the market we all trade on, in effect the claim is that DUTY. is indeed registered with CONCORD and interacts on the SCC managed market. An alliance of corporations can be a conglomerate of subsidiaries, all owned by a holding company. I am pretty sure DUTY.'s primary activities is shooting stuff thus PMC and I am pretty sure they are focused on shooting Feds in Black Rise and Placid thus are acting in the interests of KK, Wiyrkomi, and Lai Dai (who effectively own Black Rise and lay corporate claim to northern Placid).
So, the only area where any stretching need be done is regarding the SCC registration.
I find that a bit limited and boring these days though. Ingame mechanics are not always the best RP material, sadly. Sometimes they work, sometimes, they are just bland (i'm looking at you FW). But overall whatever you do ingame, it is mostly non consequential, or vain. What becomes interesting is not the fight between the Gallente Militia and the Caldari Militia over Mantenault per se, but what happens on the planet because of that... And what happened on the planet was pure world building, as usual.
I think part of the challenge with FW is the consequences and benefits of conquest are largely decoupled from the resources of the systems. Militia corporations are probably not knocking down POCOs in the systems they conqueror in order to setup their own and begin colonizing the planet with their own PI. So agreed, the mechanics can make things difficult.
However, taking the example of 4TH's planetary colonies - they actually exist in game and can be isolated. 4TH has a program by which any friendlies can request to temporarily join a 4TH corp, setup their colonies, and then leave and continue to access/maintain the colony. (I should probably write up some story around that).
If you want to claim planet-spanning holdings - train a few alts to do basic PI, form a small corporation, give your main all the shares, and say you have holdings on X number of planets and then list them if people say "no you don't!"
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Well tbh the Amarr Navy doesn't designate who is in charge in a military strategy based on what rank they hold in nobility. So in that respect the IC inference is wrong to the NPC arm of the Navy. Unless all of the people who jumped into a live argument said such things for solely my benefit. 9But I'm prtty sure it is also in Navy PF).
As for the rest, doesn't bother me as I'm not a holder or nobility.
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But what is the basis of rp then?
The basis of RP is creating something imaginary that other people will want believe in and interact with.
As for the argument given in the post, this is no different in game than it is IRL. If I claim that I am a billionaire, people will ask for some evidence. If I claim to have $10 on my wallet, everybody will believe me without bothering to check. I can still make people believe I'm a billionaire while I'm not by presenting myself properly, but the more extreme my claims, the more suspicious people will be. EVE is no different. Has nothing to do with being able to 'prove' something or not, just with making it believable.
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Good god, it's a fucking game. If people don't make up stuff, there will be nothing to hate, destroy, or argue over. If I don't like how someone RPs, I just shoot them or refuse to interact with them. In my opinion, the IGS is an arena for posting cool stuff and scoring cheap points.
That said, Gesa's post was fucking hilarious.
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Well tbh the Amarr Navy doesn't designate who is in charge in a military strategy based on what rank they hold in nobility. So in that respect the IC inference is wrong to the NPC arm of the Navy. Unless all of the people who jumped into a live argument said such things for solely my benefit. 9But I'm prtty sure it is also in Navy PF).
As for the rest, doesn't bother me as I'm not a holder or nobility.
Look at the British Royal Family. The fact that most Princes serve in the military is illustrative here - while they are deployed their position in an operation is dependent upon their military rank, not their rank in the peerage.
I'll grant you that the officer who tries to browbeat a future king is making a poor career move (under many circumstances) and I imagine that truth is also in the Imperial Navy.
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Good god, it's a fucking game. If people don't make up stuff, there will be nothing to hate, destroy, or argue over.
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But what is the basis of rp then?
The basis of RP is creating something imaginary that other people will want believe in and interact with.
As for the argument given in the post, this is no different in game than it is IRL. If I claim that I am a billionaire, people will ask for some evidence. If I claim to have $10 on my wallet, everybody will believe me without bothering to check. I can still make people believe I'm a billionaire while I'm not by presenting myself properly, but the more extreme my claims, the more suspicious people will be. EVE is no different. Has nothing to do with being able to 'prove' something or not, just with making it believable.
At least in Eve, when you claim to be a multi-billionaire and some skeptic asks for proof, you can always just undock and park an officer-fit Archon right outside his station.
Also, more Amarrians need to make grandiose claims and collect titles like stamps. I know it's incredulous, and it's going to ruffle alot of feathers, but as shown in the linked thread, it makes for GREAT COMEDY! I want to see more Amarrians squabbling over who gets command and showing off their long, long list of titles to one up each other while their Abaddons are exploding all around them.
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It might also participate in what has bee, decried over the years in PF news where Amarrians were always portrayed as goofy idiots.
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I am really not a fan of the "yes you are"/"no you aren't" style of argument that was one of the themes of the threads being mocked by Veik. There has to be a better way to handle that sort of conflict, though I haven't quite put my finger on what can be done once a disagreement like that gets going. I tried to move it away by making the whole discussion about bigger things, but while I have had fun trotting out 8 year old anti-tetrimon arguments and lots of fire and brimstone... I don't think I was quite able to drag the discussion far enough from the "Yes you are, no you aren't dynamic."
Nico did never argue whether Odelya is a holder or not. She simply denied Odelya to address her as one. vOv I also liked the RP around that, so I rolled with it.
I think all the debate about whether People are 'allowed' to claim in their RP to be this or that is covered by what Merdaneth said: Everyone is free to claim as he or she likes, but if one doesn't portray it believably, one has to live with People not believing you. At least that's how I understood what he said.
All that said, it's not by far as if Amarr are the only ones making all these grandiose claims, though, truth be told, three out of four Minmatar freedom fighters prolly claim that they were abused as slaves before they became capsuleers.
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DA insertion: Claiming to have been abused as a (amarrian) slave is a much smaller claim than claiming to be a holder. One claim, while clashing with the ideal of amarrian non-abusive (cum grano salis) slavery, is focused entirely on one's own character and that evil antagonist (Holder itself or overseer), whereas the other claim puts one's own character in direct power over quite a lot of other NPCs. Both is entirely legit, though, I just wanted to illuminate my perceived difference between those claims. In the general spirit of the thread I'd say: The smaller more simple your (impossible to proof through in-game means) claims are, the more likely people are to accept this. The other circumstances can be remedied by making these claims believable through your roleplay at heart. I dare say there are some characters I personally have difficulties accepting their portrayal as (Grand Head Honcho), simply from the fact how they are talking and acting in public, whereas others pull their positions off with enough, for example, gravitas to make it much easier to accept.
But yes. Subjectivity metre spikes. ;)
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Well, I'm not quite sure whether having been a slave that has been abused is really so much smaller and simpler a claim: In fact I'd say that the chance of a slave - especially of a heartless Holder - to escape, get to the Republic get a sufficient education, get enough Attention to be tested for capsule compatibility and getting Training as a podder is quite small.
Whether you are a Holder or the head of an important Caldari Family that is a major shareholder of (even a smaller) corporation isn't much of a difference, really. Same goes for the superrich of the Federation. All three have a far better Chance to get tested and get into a capsuleer program than the abused slave, though. Unless the breeding programs of Holders are quite successful in bringing about the qualities needed in a pod pilot...
I agree, though, that all those claims are prima facie equally legít.
I think, though, at the core we do agree: The smaller more simple your (impossible to proof through in-game means) claims are, the more likely people are to accept this. The other circumstances can be remedied by making these claims believable through your roleplay at heart. I dare say there are some characters I personally have difficulties accepting their portrayal as (Grand Head Honcho), simply from the fact how they are talking and acting in public, whereas others pull their positions off with enough, for example, gravitas to make it much easier to accept.
That's quite exactly how I see it.
But yes. Subjectivity metre spikes. ;)
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On that I agree - the likelihood is small, maybe equally small, yet the impact such a claim has is smaller. Everything has happened in the past, concerned mainly the character itself and offers no power whatsoever, whereas the holder ( or megacorp shareholder, senate member ) does have a certain amount of power at least somewhere. :)
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I think the way I react to the thread has a lot to do with whether the character making the claim has a legitimately suspicious nature. I've just been RPing with it and rolling with the punches because I thought Veik was just that kind of character. I seriously thought the character just had an ego shtick, so being told something she didn't believe was liable to make her claim pretty much anything but that the universe doesn't necessarily conform to her narrow worldview. You'd imagine that would be fairly common as a neurosis in Caldari society. So I gave Veik's player the benefit of the doubt and just went along with it.
The reason I thought that was because I haven't seen any of the current people play characters that I wouldn't have believed it, so I can't figure what the OOC gripe is. Odelya acts EXACTLY like I'd expect a slightly peevish noblewoman would. She's arrogant, haughty, and demands respect even before she has proved she deserves it. These sound like character traits. It isn't like being a noblewoman has changed her standing in the game world. Her land holdings aren't a place we can even visit in person. So I suppose I don't see what the harm in it all is. Everyone seemed to be having fun lining up against Odelya in different ways. It wasn't like Odelya was OOCly saying nobody could slag her off and, since none of us that I know of are her subjects, we're perfectly allowed to. And she's allowed to be indignant. And we're allowed to react ICly however our characters might. That is the essence of character RP.
The thing that bothers me slightly is if this whole thing really is an OOC gripe that went IC. That's a giant, waving red flag in RP when you don't handle these things OOCly. I had Veik questioning Constantin in a thread and just figured that was part of Veik's character. If Veik had that opinion because Veik's player had a problem, that's a much nastier issue. I've never gotten a communication from Veik through EVEmail or otherwise where I was asked what I was doing or what my justifications were for Constantin's position in the Theology Council. That's sort of the RP golden rule, you leave your OOC drama in OOCland, preferably in your own private OOCland before you do public OOCland. If someone has an issue, and people have had questions OOCly, you contact the player first, then the OOC community. In the end, before you ever take an OOC issue into character, you just ignore that person and let the rest of the playerbase figure out whether they are going to RP with that person or not.
As I've said, since I didn't get an kind of OOC communication yet, I just sort of assumed that was part of Veik's character. If it isn't and this really is an IC attack from a purely OOC rational, I can't hold that against anyone else but Veik. It might sound fun at first, but it grinds RP to a screeching halt and factionalizes the player base unnecessarily. You always handle your issues personally and OOCly first, and you never bleed your OOC into your RP. Ever. It never ends well, just with a lot of hurt feelings on somebody's part. This is a pastime after all. PVP is a competition, RP is a cooperative endeavor.
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See the issue of Caldari cultural insularity comes into play here. As one of the more isolationist of the Caldari Corp CEOs, and someone who has no interest in the fluffier end of the RP community, Veik had both IC and OOC reasons to try and put the boot in on someone who claims to be violating State law on capsuleers baselining and State custom on foreign faiths.
Constantin then claims to have some sort of official position in an NPC organisation and that is a bit of a red flag to our Veikitamo, who feels that if you can't back the claim up in space, you shouldn't be making it.
That's really the extent of things. It's not rocket science and it doesn't need umpty-billion paragraphs of deconstruction. You're either in those camps or you aren't.
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Then that's sort of the difference; I very clearly delineate IC and OOC issues. My characters have IC problems, which they address in RP and I have OOC issues, which I address personally. If Veik had an OOC problem with me, I'm easily reachable in person through EVEmail at the very least.
If it's totally IC, that's fine. If it's based on an OOC problem, I'd really rather deal with it in person rather than having these kinds of dramatic OOC dust ups that get all of you involved. Now people who are or are not in 'those camps' are in the unenviable position of having to argue about it. Because it's in the RP now, and we don't have a choice but to deal with it in character.
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To be fair, it's an IGS post. You can deal with it in-character by ignoring it for the five days or so it'll take it to drop off the bottom of the screen.
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Point is, baselining in Caldari society as a Capsuleer is the recepie for a bullet to the back of the skull blowing out Implant 1 and the rest of the base of the brain, regardless of what you're doing - at least as far as I am aware. The society is very rigid - FAR more so than the Amarr - in their caste system. Capsuleers are not to mingle with baseliners - especially foreigners - planetside, stationwise, or otherwise.
If that's wrong, someone correct me. But that's pretty much the very strong impression given from PF / Cronicles (Jita 4-4 I think is its name)
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Do not take it as an offense but that's a consequential fallacy. It's not because Falcon canonized it that Pyre Falcon considered itself to be associated with KK, it's because PYRE started since the very beginning to say that they were affiliated with KK, and then did sufficient deeds ingame to attract Falcon's attention, for him to eventually legitimize their KK status. In the end, PYRE did the exact same thing at the beginning before it being canonized.
Unfortunately for half if not more factioned RPers who also claim to be a subsidiary of X, or being mandated by X, this is barely going to happen anytime soon. To me it feels pretty much like "I got legitimized by CCP, no matter how it was before, and now I feel that I have the right to curbstomp everyone that has yet to be legitimized by Falcon".
I couldn't agree more, this really is the crucial point.
I think world building for noble Amarr chars is a pretty important thing. Something like 2/3rds of the True Amarr characters are supposed to be noble, so its really not overboard to have many many different backgrounds that involve owning large chunks of real estate.
I think a good rule of thumb is avoid crossing lines that would give you more power in game than you actually have as a player. If you keep your ranks at "Holder" rather than getting too elaborate with the fancier titles and if you keep your holdings as relatively small in the grand scheme of things you are doing a good (and neccessary) job creating a noble character without stepping on too many toes.
I am really not a fan of the "yes you are"/"no you aren't" style of argument that was one of the themes of the threads being mocked by Veik. There has to be a better way to handle that sort of conflict, though I haven't quite put my finger on what can be done once a disagreement like that gets going. I tried to move it away by making the whole discussion about bigger things, but while I have had fun trotting out 8 year old anti-tetrimon arguments and lots of fire and brimstone... I don't think I was quite able to drag the discussion far enough from the "Yes you are, no you aren't dynamic."
Agreed!
Note that there's no material benefit to PYRE being "legit," unless you're of the opinion that a few mentions in colored text is manna from heaven you can't live your life without. It doesn't place us in a position of authority over other double-K affiliated entities, or let us make claims about their legitimacy in any way.
Absolutely!
Nico did never argue whether Odelya is a holder or not. She simply denied Odelya to address her as one. vOv I also liked the RP around that, so I rolled with it.
I enjoyed it too! :)
The reason I thought that was because I haven't seen any of the current people play characters that I wouldn't have believed it, so I can't figure what the OOC gripe is. Odelya acts EXACTLY like I'd expect a slightly peevish noblewoman would. She's arrogant, haughty, and demands respect even before she has proved she deserves it. These sound like character traits. It isn't like being a noblewoman has changed her standing in the game world. Her land holdings aren't a place we can even visit in person. So I suppose I don't see what the harm in it all is. Everyone seemed to be having fun lining up against Odelya in different ways. It wasn't like Odelya was OOCly saying nobody could slag her off and, since none of us that I know of are her subjects, we're perfectly allowed to. And she's allowed to be indignant. And we're allowed to react ICly however our characters might. That is the essence of character RP.
I am happy to read that you think that way!
The thing that bothers me slightly is if this whole thing really is an OOC gripe that went IC. That's a giant, waving red flag in RP when you don't handle these things OOCly.
This is what I tend to believe, but I am eager to hear what the original poster of the mentioned thread has to say about it.
P.S.: Sorry for the monster post.
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The value of a joke is always diminished if it has to be explained.
If it is not clear as to why both I as the player and the character I play are at present laughing - Veikitamo due to the IGS and I due to this thread, then what do either gain in providing elaboration if vicarious amusement is the objective?
However, I might drop a hint and ask a hypothetical question:
What difference is there between an absurdist-comedian and a logician?
I might even provide some audiovisual aids courtesy of those lovable Brits and their Flying Circus:
IGS and the Roleplay Community of Backstage (With a cameo by Veik and her player as Germans) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-kfRREA8M)
IGS and Roleplay Discussions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y)
Roleplay in General (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2ViNJFZC8)
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Hello!
Can someone summarize what the IC claims were that were happening?
I don't know the details but I can promise you no Amarr capsuleers are baselining in the State and prostheletizing without a post-haste bullet to the head. The State absolutely does not put up with that sort of rabble-rousing and rocking the orderly boat. Especially in the currently dicey political situation.
It's been written before that even regular capsuleers baselining in the State are almost always kill on sight, someone trying to preach or call even the smallest amount of attention to themselves would be taken out so fast as to make your head spin.
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Hello!
Can someone summarize what the IC claims were that were happening?
I don't know the details but I can promise you no Amarr capsuleers are baselining in the State and prostheletizing without a post-haste bullet to the head. The State absolutely does not put up with that sort of rabble-rousing and rocking the orderly boat. Especially in the currently dicey political situation.
It's been written before that even regular capsuleers baselining in the State are almost always kill on sight, someone trying to preach or call even the smallest amount of attention to themselves would be taken out so fast as to make your head spin.
I'd say that's a bit unfair of an assertion to make, and would really stifle the necessity of creative effort and world-building in the RP community.
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Wait, what the hell is baselining? Just, like, going to an ordinary restaurant and hanging out with non-capsuleers?
That seems really psychotic even for the Caldari.
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Wait, what the hell is baselining? Just, like, going to an ordinary restaurant and hanging out with non-capsuleers?
That seems really psychotic even for the Caldari.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Baselining
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Hello!
Can someone summarize what the IC claims were that were happening?
I don't know the details but I can promise you no Amarr capsuleers are baselining in the State and prostheletizing without a post-haste bullet to the head. The State absolutely does not put up with that sort of rabble-rousing and rocking the orderly boat. Especially in the currently dicey political situation.
It's been written before that even regular capsuleers baselining in the State are almost always kill on sight, someone trying to preach or call even the smallest amount of attention to themselves would be taken out so fast as to make your head spin.
I'd say that's a bit unfair of an assertion to make, and would really stifle the necessity of creative effort and world-building in the RP community.
It's not about being unfair or stifling anything. I think we make decisions as a group to work with the existing PF and make our stories work within that framework or we decide not to. Sometimes we skirt the edges, sometimes we decide to break PF in specific areas. These things happen all the time, but when we are doing an interactive world-building, conversation, etc, sometimes its good to have a mutual framework.
It's less important when we are off world building our own little sandcastles, its more important when we are messing with other people's sandcastles. Amarr RPers would likely take issue with a Caldari player saying they've set up a megacorp subsidiary on the front steps of the main cathedral on Athra selling Tibus Heth t-shirts and noodles, because it doesn't make sense with how most of us understand the faction and what the Amarr would possibly put up with.
People of course feel differently about these things, I find the PF "boundaries" to be a great way to be more creative, not less, but thats just my opinion. I think working within an established framework can be liberating in plenty of ways.
Here's the relevant section though:
On most Caldari stations, capsuleers who attempt to baseline (or are at least known to be doing so) with no pre-existing megacorporate record are attached a temporary station ID[1]. They are expected to remain incognito and attract absolutely no attention to themselves. Three counts of vagrant behaviour will see them removed and returned to capsuleer areas, while larger violations, such as having their cover blown, will see capsuleers shot-on-sight by station security. This regulation is not much different on planets, where the megacorporations have the same level of monolithic control as on stations. Capsuleers solve these issues by either creating a name for themselves and/or utilizing their connections, or simply remain under the radar from the corporate authorities altogether.
I'm not trying to be PF nazi, but sometimes finding creative ways around the PF can be fun and interesting. Maybe there's some Caldari colony out in the wilderness where things are a bit looser? Maybe there's an exchange program allowing some limited sermonizing in certain designated areas of a station? Like a little 'free speech' zone most of the factory workers are happy to ignore but maybe a few are interested in hearing more? Who knows.
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I hope my tone is not misread as being snarky or anything along those lines, this it not my intent. You can of course do, write, or say anything you like, but where we draw the lines of working with the established fictional framework and where we decide to break them is an important issue in a mutually constructed environment.
This sort of thing comes up now and then where someone supporting X faction claims to do something to Y faction that rubs a lot of Y supporters the wrong way. Respecting the other people's PF sandcastle is usually a smoother road to take when working with others.
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As a note, I actually have read the relevant data. I actually do have a very good reason why Constantin Baracca is not killed on site and why he has a branch of what is ostensibly his diocese operating in Caldari space. I will very happily blow the IC storyline stuff if that's necessary, but I'm not going to do it on this forum. It fits very heavily into that [REDACTED] stuff in his character sheet. I thought I'd pretty much spelled it out so far, how he's managing to get away with it, but I'll definitely explain it if people haven't figured out how he's doing it.
I'm only doing it in person though. People are having a lot of IC fun figuring out how the Hell he's getting away with this stuff, and I'm not ruining it for everyone who's figuring this out on their own.
If it's really breaking someone's immersion, though, I can OOC explain it to you in person. Send me a mail. I'll be happy to walk you through it.
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People of course feel differently about these things, I find the PF "boundaries" to be a great way to be more creative, not less, but thats just my opinion. I think working within an established framework can be liberating in plenty of ways.
Here's the relevant section though:
On most Caldari stations, capsuleers who attempt to baseline (or are at least known to be doing so) with no pre-existing megacorporate record are attached a temporary station ID[1]. They are expected to remain incognito and attract absolutely no attention to themselves. Three counts of vagrant behaviour will see them removed and returned to capsuleer areas, while larger violations, such as having their cover blown, will see capsuleers shot-on-sigh by station security. This regulation is not much different on planets, where the megacorporations have the same level of monolithic control as on stations. Capsuleers solve these issues by either creating a name for themselves and/or utilizing their connections, or simply remain under the radar from the corporate authorities altogether.
Point of clarification before I comment here - is that paraphrased from the Jita 4-4 chronicle only or are there other PF articles that support it as well?
The reason being is that Jita 4-4 doesn't actually state anything quite so broad as what you're outlining there. The three strikes and you're out rule references a particular law of Jita 4-4 pertaining to vagrancy. It doesn't differentiate vagrancy committed by capsuleers compared with vagrancy committed by non-capsuleers. It does not give any information on how vagrancy is treated planet-side.
A few paragraphs later in the same chronicle, the narrator - who is in Jita 4-4 to "take a hit contract on some civilian in the crosshairs of a person with too much money and some serious grudges" notes:
It's a non-starter for me anyways. If I fall asleep, then they'll see soon enough. They'll notice the sockets at the base of the neck, telltale signs of trouble.
While pleasantly dreaming, I'd be giving them an excuse, a reason, a motivation to look closely enough, and they'd realize quickly what I am. In these situations where we are uncovered, alone and incognito, lurking amongst the masses, they find it easier to just shoot us.
When capsuleers are involved, it's the only path with a predictable end.
If they woke me, and let me know that they know, well, who knows what would happen next?
I could be loaded with nanite viruses, armed with invisible spy drones, laced with biological contaminants. Who knows?
Again, talking about a specific situation - uncovered and previously incognito, giving rise to suspicion of motive - in the context of a highly controlled environment in the space station. It doesn't speak specifically to what procedures might or might not be in place planet-side, nor does it suggest how different megacorps or subsidaries may address this problem. Jita 4-4 is a Caldari Navy station if I'm not mistaken so a shoot first, wonder about the might-have-beens later seems a reasonable attitude for their security forces to adopt.
I don't know - as I said in the opening sentence of this post - if there is other PF you're basing this on. I just couldn't find anything that unequivocally supports your statement that regulations in regards to capsuleer KOS in Jita 4-4 (outside of registered capsuleer areas) are "not much different on planets".
If I'm not mistaken, it seems to be your interpretation of PF rather than the facts themselves. If that is the case then by applying these as "your PF" you're creating the same sandcastles you mentioned and may well be messing with the sandcastles of others who interpret that PF in a different manner, yes?
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Ollie, Gwen's evelopedia link is what you should check out, it sets up quite a few conditions for baselining in the different factions, check it out!
I should have put my quote from the evelopedia article in quotations... lemme try again:
Caldari State
The highly-controlled and meticulously bureaucratic nature of the Caldari State means that capsuleers are heavily restricted by the corporate authorities outside of their designated zones, with a large amount of protocols and regulations that govern a pilot’s freedom of movement. The capsuleers, who are often considered as a faction unto themselves, are commonly regarded as a threat to the established economic order of the State, the megacorporations treating pilots who they consider liabilities over assets with great suspicion.
On most Caldari stations, capsuleers who attempt to baseline (or are at least known to be doing so) with no pre-existing megacorporate record are attached a temporary station ID[1]. They are expected to remain incognito and attract absolutely no attention to themselves. Three counts of vagrant behaviour will see them removed and returned to capsuleer areas, while larger violations, such as having their cover blown, will see capsuleers shot-on-sight by station security. This regulation is not much different on planets, where the megacorporations have the same level of monolithic control as on stations. Capsuleers solve these issues by either creating a name for themselves and/or utilizing their connections, or simply remain under the radar from the corporate authorities altogether.
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Thanks, I'd missed Gwen's post.
I'm still a bit leery of that, even though it's:
A) Written by CCP Abraxas
B) Presented as PF via Evelopedia
One of the things that clashes a bit with how Jita 4-4 presents things is that there's no three strikes/you're out vagrancy law for capsuleers. Or rather there is, but the judgement and sentence is somewhat different - non-capsuleers get taken away, capsuleers get shot (in Jita 4-4 station at least).
To me it doesn't make much sense to pursue a 'having their cover blown will see capsuleers shot on sight' policy while supporting a vagrancy loophole :) "Don't shoot me, I'm just a vagrant! Can you spare some change?"
Put it down to human error/inconsistency I guess. Or attribute it to the cause/effect of Jita scammers :)
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Your earlier point is still valid though, how we as a group interpret the PF is just as important as anything written up on any of the official pages.
I just try to lean more towards trying to work within those frameworks rather than pushing boundaries, but that is my personal style of which other people of course take a different direction.
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As a note, I actually have read the relevant data. I actually do have a very good reason why Constantin Baracca is not killed on site and why he has a branch of what is ostensibly his diocese operating in Caldari space. I will very happily blow the IC storyline stuff if that's necessary, but I'm not going to do it on this forum. It fits very heavily into that [REDACTED] stuff in his character sheet. I thought I'd pretty much spelled it out so far, how he's managing to get away with it, but I'll definitely explain it if people haven't figured out how he's doing it.
I'm only doing it in person though. People are having a lot of IC fun figuring out how the Hell he's getting away with this stuff, and I'm not ruining it for everyone who's figuring this out on their own.
If it's really breaking someone's immersion, though, I can OOC explain it to you in person. Send me a mail. I'll be happy to walk you through it.
It doesn't effect me or my IC stuff so there's no need, I was just taking the point of view some of the Caldari types on here might be feeling. If you say you've read the relevant info and you've figured it out then that shows you have taken the time to consider the angles. You'd have to talk with them about what they think and see how many feathers you are ruffling. :bear:
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It's times like this that my view comes from most roleplayers would fit the analogy of acting like the people living in an isolated hill village all arguing trying to convince each other of things like, "Only birds can fly" while praying to the vicarious CCP pantheon of Gods for validation and confirmation. And then wondering if they must be crazy when a gyrocopter comes to hover above.
As for the relevance to this thread, if issues arise because of the artificially constructed four walls of you have constructed for yourselves then you can easily circumvent it all by a simple change of perspective and reference.
Which is probably why this thread exists, because it seems to be about people being silly and making things up outside the bounds of what might be considered to be the empirical evidence of the game mechanics.
(Which really, for a capsuleer, why does it even matter beyond that world -- what you need the full guide about the people of a planet before you bomb and vitrify its crust or whatever?)
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As a note, I actually have read the relevant data. I actually do have a very good reason why Constantin Baracca is not killed on site and why he has a branch of what is ostensibly his diocese operating in Caldari space. I will very happily blow the IC storyline stuff if that's necessary, but I'm not going to do it on this forum. It fits very heavily into that [REDACTED] stuff in his character sheet. I thought I'd pretty much spelled it out so far, how he's managing to get away with it, but I'll definitely explain it if people haven't figured out how he's doing it.
I'm only doing it in person though. People are having a lot of IC fun figuring out how the Hell he's getting away with this stuff, and I'm not ruining it for everyone who's figuring this out on their own.
If it's really breaking someone's immersion, though, I can OOC explain it to you in person. Send me a mail. I'll be happy to walk you through it.
It doesn't effect me or my IC stuff so there's no need, I was just taking the point of view some of the Caldari types on here might be feeling. If you say you've read the relevant info and you've figured it out then that shows you have taken the time to consider the angles. You'd have to talk with them about what they think and see how many feathers you are ruffling. :bear:
That's sort of the reason I wasn't sure whether I was included. I seem to sometimes be, sometimes not. The reason I'm not sure whether Veik has a problem with me is just that. Nobody said anything to me. I just figured it was in Veik's character to kind of dismiss Constantin instead of figuring out how he pulled this off. I was only recently told this wasn't an IC thing, so I have to go with that and say that I can absolutely explain why not only Constantin isn't lying, but that it wouldn't be possible or necessary if he wasn't a bishop. If he was any more or less, the RP would be completely different. Consider it a hint that it's incredibly important that he is specifically a bishop.
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(Which really, for a capsuleer, why does it even matter beyond that world -- what you need the full guide about the people of a planet before you bomb and vitrify its crust or whatever?)
If we follow the idea of "Game mechanics is God", then the most a Capsuleer can do to a planet is somewhat forcefully improve it's industrial economy in select small areas.
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The reason I'm not sure whether Veik has a problem with me is just that.
I don't have a problem with you as a player and neither does Veik as a character -- she's had sufficient catalyst to go off and have a chat with Zarathustra, so that's all that needs to be said as far as I'm concerned.
Does anything else need to be said?
(Which really, for a capsuleer, why does it even matter beyond that world -- what you need the full guide about the people of a planet before you bomb and vitrify its crust or whatever?)
If we follow the idea of "Game mechanics is God", then the most a Capsuleer can do to a planet is somewhat forcefully improve it's industrial economy in select small areas.
I wouldn't say it's God, but it as I said the closest one can get to empirical evidence in Eve. You're right however, that you can't vitrify worlds (yet).
I do have to ask though, I find the world presented in Eve sufficient to play out the role of a capsuleer. I mean, I always thought that sense of being divorced from the rest of New Eden, and the potential feelings of isolation and loneliness were intended? That in a sense you as a player are meant to feel just as disconnected as your character might be from everyone else that isn't a capsuleer themselves.
Sometimes I wonder if all the attempts at trying to build outside the glass walls CCP built is because they're the same walls our characters encounter?
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I do have to ask though, I find the world presented in Eve sufficient to play out the role of a capsuleer. I mean, I always thought that sense of being divorced from the rest of New Eden, and the potential feelings of isolation and loneliness were intended? That in a sense you as a player are meant to feel just as disconnected as your character might be from everyone else that isn't a capsuleer themselves.
Sometimes I wonder if all the attempts at trying to build outside the glass walls CCP built is because they're the same walls our characters encounter?
Well, I personally would doubt that CCP was originally going for that feeling, though they probably did eventually course to that effect - Afterall, the old idea was to have Capsuleers eventually be able to go down and drive around on the surface of planets, fight/talk to people, etc. Hell, elements of that we're resurfacing in the old WoS stuff as little as 3 years ago, to my understanding.
But, that being said, I'd say you're right that we're now supposed to feel somewhat isolated from the rest of the universe. After all, the fiction does a fair amount to suggest that as well.
That said, though. Our characters might be in such a position now, but obviously, none of them were born in their pods. They were normal members of society until fairly recently. Obviously, if one wants to construct fully fleshed out individuals and not just avatars of the stereotypes of ones chosen faction, it's sort of necessary to think about what they were doing during that time.
This, in of itself, sort of requires some degree of worldbuilding, don't you think? Afterall, there are only a handful of fleshed out locations in the game. It'd get old real quick if everyone was from those few places. And the preset backgrounds are impossibly vague even if one follows them, which isn't really enough to take one out of stereotype territory.
I like to think that I'm pretty conservative in that respect - I only have a couple pages of fluff written up for Gwen's hometown, family and local Achur beliefs, none of which I intend to ever dump anywhere directly - though I'm sure others have even less established, maybe even as little as a vague idea of their characters family and the circumstances of their youth. But you seem to be implying that even that is overstepping ones place.
I mean, you can do without, of course. You can supplement IC motivations that might have been driven by a history for ones based around your own.
But, at that point, aren't you basically just playing yourself? Why even bother?
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It's times like this that my view comes from most roleplayers would fit the analogy of acting like the people living in an isolated hill village all arguing trying to convince each other of things like, "Only birds can fly" while praying to the vicarious CCP pantheon of Gods for validation and confirmation. And then wondering if they must be crazy when a gyrocopter comes to hover above.
As for the relevance to this thread, if issues arise because of the artificially constructed four walls of you have constructed for yourselves then you can easily circumvent it all by a simple change of perspective and reference.
Which is probably why this thread exists, because it seems to be about people being silly and making things up outside the bounds of what might be considered to be the empirical evidence of the game mechanics.
(Which really, for a capsuleer, why does it even matter beyond that world -- what you need the full guide about the people of a planet before you bomb and vitrify its crust or whatever?)
Hey, that might be the difference, you put the emphasis on game mechanisms, I put the emphasis on PF and lore. Game mechanisms are game mechanisms, they do not always make much sense anyway.
Also, the isolated side of capsuleers is interesting to play, but it becomes limited and somewhat bland when one cannot also play what it implies in terms of impact on the standard world besides. What is interesting is playing the isolated demi god and how what he does in that state can influence the world.
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I think world building for noble Amarr chars is a pretty important thing. Something like 2/3rds of the True Amarr characters are supposed to be noble, so its really not overboard to have many many different backgrounds that involve owning large chunks of real estate.
I think a good rule of thumb is avoid crossing lines that would give you more power in game than you actually have as a player. If you keep your ranks at "Holder" rather than getting too elaborate with the fancier titles and if you keep your holdings as relatively small in the grand scheme of things you are doing a good (and neccessary) job creating a noble character without stepping on too many toes.
I am really not a fan of the "yes you are"/"no you aren't" style of argument that was one of the themes of the threads being mocked by Veik. There has to be a better way to handle that sort of conflict, though I haven't quite put my finger on what can be done once a disagreement like that gets going. I tried to move it away by making the whole discussion about bigger things, but while I have had fun trotting out 8 year old anti-tetrimon arguments and lots of fire and brimstone... I don't think I was quite able to drag the discussion far enough from the "Yes you are, no you aren't dynamic."
This.
To a RPer, RPing a member of a society in which title and position are important (and this is all of them but the Gallente, arguably)) this stuff matters.
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I think world building for noble Amarr chars is a pretty important thing. Something like 2/3rds of the True Amarr characters are supposed to be noble, so its really not overboard to have many many different backgrounds that involve owning large chunks of real estate.
I think a good rule of thumb is avoid crossing lines that would give you more power in game than you actually have as a player. If you keep your ranks at "Holder" rather than getting too elaborate with the fancier titles and if you keep your holdings as relatively small in the grand scheme of things you are doing a good (and neccessary) job creating a noble character without stepping on too many toes.
I am really not a fan of the "yes you are"/"no you aren't" style of argument that was one of the themes of the threads being mocked by Veik. There has to be a better way to handle that sort of conflict, though I haven't quite put my finger on what can be done once a disagreement like that gets going. I tried to move it away by making the whole discussion about bigger things, but while I have had fun trotting out 8 year old anti-tetrimon arguments and lots of fire and brimstone... I don't think I was quite able to drag the discussion far enough from the "Yes you are, no you aren't dynamic."
This.
To a RPer, RPing a member of a society in which title and position are important (and this is all of them but the Gallente, arguably)) this stuff matters.
I, The Honourable Laurentis Thiesant OVC. USM. hereby decree that I agree with this sentiment.
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But, at that point, aren't you basically just playing yourself? Why even bother?
Or it could be a matter of perspective. Some capsuleers cling to their old lives, and their old sense of self before they were in the pod. Some capsuleers might find their minds turned inwards in the isolation of their lives, and in the darkness of their own minds become monsters made of men who utter to themselves: "Well, you know what this is all rather silly and absurd I'm going to go and drink a vodka red bull".
Hey, that might be the difference, you put the emphasis on game mechanisms, I put the emphasis on PF and lore.
Or I use the PF and lore to rationalize the game mechanisms.
Also, the isolated side of capsuleers is interesting to play, but it becomes limited and somewhat bland when one cannot also play what it implies in terms of impact on the standard world besides. What is interesting is playing the isolated demi god and how what he does in that state can influence the world.
You can probably do much the same thing not paying for chat channels when you can play Eve offline like a tapletop RP with your friends when all the PF, canon, and lore are available on Evelopedia no?
How else can you affect the game world if you're not playing the game?
Do I RP now by going, "You imagine a starbase around the moon, roll a d20 to see if you succeed in lighting the cyno"?
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I think we might not have the same definition for "game world". To you it means what happens in space. To me it means that, plus what happens outside mechanisms, meaning, planets, stations, politics (not nullsec bullshit), etc.
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Do I RP now by going, "You imagine a starbase around the moon, roll a d20 to see if you succeed in lighting the cyno"?
No no no. You're doing it wrong.
You roll 1d6 to determine if you get to light it or not. The 1d20 is for how much of the ten-minute cycle you last before getting blapped.
Then you roll an additional 2d20 to see how many ships come through the cyno. If you get two ones, your titan jumps instead of bridging.
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Or it could be a matter of perspective. Some capsuleers cling to their old lives, and their old sense of self before they were in the pod. Some capsuleers might find their minds turned inwards in the isolation of their lives, and in the darkness of their own minds become monsters made of men who utter to themselves: "Well, you know what this is all rather silly and absurd I'm going to go and drink a vodka red bull".
What's the point in playing a broken character, if you never made up anything whole to be broken in the first place? An individual is still shaped by their background, even if they reject it completely out of force or circumstance.
And here you're presenting it as a choice, but a few posts back, you were sort of condemning roleplaying anything outside of the mechanics as "silly". So it sorta feels like you only really consider one anwser "correct", if you'll pardon the presumption.
Veik, I don't mean to be rude, but your current outlook to this is frankly a bit puzzling to me. MMO roleplay as a general rule almost always has a an on again-off again relationship with the mechanics - In fact, Eve is probably the game in which the two are most integrated. In pretty much every other MMO, the status quo is to keep the two almost totally divorced when it comes to anything remotely serious. IC conflicts are most often resolved by standing around writing at eachother. Even /duels are considered a faux-pas in terms of conflict resolution, since the sentiment held by most is that something like player skill shouldn't get in the way of the story people are trying to tell a story together.
Eve is a lot rougher then that, but it's still a leaf cut from the same branch. It's a good bet that a fair chunk here hold developing their characters and their associated stories as being just as or even more important (which is interchangeable with "fun" here) then the game itself.
Why does that seem to irk you so much? People wanting to make up their own pointless fluff is what makes them roleplayers to begin with. They have a desire to integrate an enthusiasm for creative writing in with their gaming hobby. Just passively playing a character that is essentially only a sockpuppet for ones OOC ingame actions isn't going to scratch that itch in the least. And besides, what one wants to write isn't always the same as what one wants to play.
But if you find that silly, I'm not really certain what to say. I mean... If I might be a little frank, are you sure you actually like MMO roleplaying, such as it is? Do you enjoy the community? Are you having fun, here?
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Gwen for president
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Do I RP now by going, "You imagine a starbase around the moon, roll a d20 to see if you succeed in lighting the cyno"?
No no no. You're doing it wrong.
You roll 1d6 to determine if you get to light it or not. The 1d20 is for how much of the ten-minute cycle you last before getting blapped.
Then you roll an additional 2d20 to see how many ships come through the cyno. If you get two ones, your titan jumps instead of bridging.
Can't...
stop...
LAUGHING!!!!
I have nothing serious to add to this discussion since I havent really read much of it, but had to give Morlag props for that. :D
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Oddly this is the most mind-blowing/disruptive piece of PF for me ever. I don't hate it... it just really changes my view of the EVEverse.
What do you think it means if CCP says that barely any capsuleers ever choose to interact with baseliners, and I would say 80% of RP'ers RP as at least intermittently doing so? Are the members of the Summit unusually sociable? Particularly sane?
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The reason I'm not sure whether Veik has a problem with me is just that.
I don't have a problem with you as a player and neither does Veik as a character -- she's had sufficient catalyst to go off and have a chat with Zarathustra, so that's all that needs to be said as far as I'm concerned.
Nope, that's that for me.
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Oddly this is the most mind-blowing/disruptive piece of PF for me ever. I don't hate it... it just really changes my view of the EVEverse.
What do you think it means if CCP says that barely any capsuleers ever choose to interact with baseliners, and I would say 80% of RP'ers RP as at least intermittently doing so? Are the members of the Summit unusually sociable? Particularly sane?
It has been a long-running pseudo-joke that this is the case, yes. Your average (non-RPing) player is typically portrayed or referred to in a similar fashion to the 'villain' capsuleer from the Burning Life - being a capsuleer is little more than a game to them.
Effectively, roleplayers (in the sense that we consider ourselves roleplayers and the average EVE player not a roleplayer) are as much a minority in the playerbase as the characters we usually portray are among the population of 'unbound' capsuleers (ie, player characters).
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OK I'm trying to get the overall point of this thread, so maybe someone can correct me if I'm reading this all wrong; we're discussing why people stomp/dismiss people's IG claims that are essentially RP fluff unless they can back it up via mechanics, and whether or not this is good?
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Pretty much, Anslo. This argument comes up from time to time. It's like a seasonal flu for us.
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Pretty much, Anslo. This argument comes up from time to time. It's like a seasonal flu for us.
What a coincidence! I have a meeting today about a new flu vaccine! Don't worry guise, Dr. Anslol is on the case!
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Oddly this is the most mind-blowing/disruptive piece of PF for me ever. I don't hate it... it just really changes my view of the EVEverse.
What do you think it means if CCP says that barely any capsuleers ever choose to interact with baseliners, and I would say 80% of RP'ers RP as at least intermittently doing so? Are the members of the Summit unusually sociable? Particularly sane?
I think the article talks quite a bit on the restrictions and commonality of certain activities, not that they don't happen. There's all sorts of baselining going on in all manner of different areas, in probably as many ways as you can imagine. Things are tighter controlled on space stations, they get more iffy the further away you move from CONCORD controlled things.
What you don't have too often is capsuleers running around CONCORD signatory space stations outside of their special zones causing a ruckus.
If your capsuleer is in good standing with the Federation and buys an island on Luminaire somewhere and throws the best parties ever and pays for all of this year's QUAFFE calendar pinups to be there, this is not likely to cause any waves.
If your capsuleer runs through Jita 4-4 baseliner area throwing piles of money at people and shouting into a megaphone about the red god while trying to do shots of vodka off the back of a station security guard, there will be issues.
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I get that, although -- I mean, presumably if a rich baseliner did that in Jita there would be issues too?
The surprising part I guess was the idea that the Empires (though to strongly varying degrees) almost want to keep capsuleers... a secret? Are we supposed to be a secret?
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No, we're massive paperwork-causing incident nightmares waiting to happen. It's simpler to just shoot us than to deal with us or what we might do alive.
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We're dangerous.
And yes, one could consider the RP community not a sampling of the capsuleer population in regards to what we do, but exeptions to general rules. Talking to my husband about crew and etc is a good example. He knows all of the space lore, the cronicles, the lore, but if you ask him if he'd think about a crew on a ship or even people planetside the answer is a resounding 'no'.
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+1 for Victoria's comment.
It makes sense that rediculously wealthy, extremely powerful nigh-immortal rabble-rousers are likely to be kept on an extremely short leash whenever possible.
Think of how much of a pain in the ass it is for everyone involved whenever someone like Barak Obama wants to eat at a 'regular person' restaurant. The security, the closing of nearby businesses, roads, the hospitals on call when he travels, the layers of security detail, etc, etc.
Now multiply his wealth and celebrity by a factor of 100. Station security unlikely to be happy when capsuleer 'x' wants to go slumming with the proles in the local bar. This is not to say that it doesn't happen, just that things can easily be 'complicated.'
Of course not all capsuleers are popular, well known, or famous.
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+1 for Victoria's comment.
It makes sense that rediculously wealthy, extremely powerful nigh-immortal rabble-rousers are likely to be kept on an extremely short leash whenever possible.
Think of how much of a pain in the ass it is for everyone involved whenever someone like Barak Obama wants to eat at a 'regular person' restaurant. The security, the closing of nearby businesses, roads, the hospitals on call when he travels, the layers of security detail, etc, etc.
Now multiply his wealth and celebrity by a factor of 100. Station security unlikely to be happy when capsuleer 'x' wants to go slumming with the proles in the local bar. This is not to say that it doesn't happen, just that things can easily be 'complicated.'
Of course not all capsuleers are popular, well known, or famous.
This is why it is likely far more common, and even encouraged by the authorities that be, for capsuleers to build their own isolated communities or estates where they can 'play normal'. This is perhaps the biggest reason why an empire would allow a capsuleer to live on a vast estate somewhere on a planet.
The authorities charge exorbitant taxes and fees and property values from the capsuleer who can afford it easily, making tons of money for the regional authorities. Meanwhile, the capsuleer is kept safely in their prison without walls. It's a form of encouraged house arrest.
"You stay there in your fancy estate and don't come to the city, and we'll send you whatever you want. Deal?"
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+1 for Victoria's comment.
It makes sense that rediculously wealthy, extremely powerful nigh-immortal rabble-rousers are likely to be kept on an extremely short leash whenever possible.
Think of how much of a pain in the ass it is for everyone involved whenever someone like Barak Obama wants to eat at a 'regular person' restaurant. The security, the closing of nearby businesses, roads, the hospitals on call when he travels, the layers of security detail, etc, etc.
Now multiply his wealth and celebrity by a factor of 100. Station security unlikely to be happy when capsuleer 'x' wants to go slumming with the proles in the local bar. This is not to say that it doesn't happen, just that things can easily be 'complicated.'
Of course not all capsuleers are popular, well known, or famous.
This is why it is likely far more common, and even encouraged by the authorities that be, for capsuleers to build their own isolated communities or estates where they can 'play normal'. This is perhaps the biggest reason why an empire would allow a capsuleer to live on a vast estate somewhere on a planet.
The authorities charge exorbitant taxes and fees and property values from the capsuleer who can afford it easily, making tons of money for the regional authorities. Meanwhile, the capsuleer is kept safely in their prison without walls. It's a form of encouraged house arrest.
"You stay there in your fancy estate and don't come to the city, and we'll send you whatever you want. Deal?"
I feel so fortunate for playing a Matar, because the concept of 'Elite Class' doesn't seem to exist in the Minmatar society and your money and power doesn't affect your social standing, just your age and your perceived wisdom. So I get Elmund to visit the bars and drink vodka and play cards with the proles, and they won't even feel awkward about it.
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I don't know, the position of royalty and nobility has changed from time to time and culture to culture. While there were certainly times when you had to protect nobles from possible assassinations and angry populations, that wasn't always the case. European nobility were expected to be out and about, mingling with at least their vassals in other territories so they could keep an eye on things. In these cases, it wasn't much of a problem being near the population. They were poor, uneducated, and unschooled in martial disciplines. Their lords were generally well-trained combatants. They walked among those people with little fear until the end of that age.
As far as capsuleers go, I'd say it's probably decided very much on a case-by-case basis. If a capsuleer develops a reputation for not being a rabblerouser and for not making a nuisance of himself, I'd say he'd pretty much be tolerated anywhere. If a capsuleer is revolutionary and vitriolic, I don't think he'd even be welcome to land in his own back yard without pissing off the neighbors.
So that might be something that needs to be figured out on a character basis. Character traits and flaws have benefits and consequences. If you want a capsuleer that can generally find himself planetside without much trouble, you'd better be ready to play someone that can feasibly be believed to do that. If you walk into any thread or chat channel and your character has an attitude, you have to understand that the baseliner community might eventually end up knowing that capsuleer's reputation. To be allowed to walk around anywhere, whenever and wherever you want, you'd better be ready to play someone very intentionally disarming.
Which is why Constantin can't get involved in any of these fun little diss battles that pop up on the IGS. A slip of a word talking shit about a certain Gallente political party, and he might find himself not able to visit a whole planet if the government there is made up of that party. But that's sort of a price you pay to play the diplomatic and cheerful type. You have to be very conscious that your character is walking on RP eggshells.
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Capsuleers are not necessarily space Obamas or Rodens.
They can be celebrities, and a lot of celebs usually visit plebs and proles and other common average places.
I would also argue that considering that CCP is always putting the emphasis on capsuleers connections, they have the power to give the middle finger to authorities and go baseline as much as they want, as long as they are not too much a pain on site.
It is however specified it works with a bullet in the head if publicly discovered in Jita 4-4, so arguing otherwise because of :connections: starts to smell a little special snowflaky.
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tbqfh, if it isn't hurting someone directly or some overthetop claim like I AM LORD OF ALL JITA, WATCH AS I SMASH YOUR PATHETIC RP'D EVENT WITH A THOUSAND INVINCIBLE HETH CLONES UNDER MY COMMAND...so what? Maybe I'm not seeing the deeper problem here or something, but I just don't get why there's so much contention around this.
We're supposed to make content. Then someone makes content/something interesting a new. Then people say 'oh that's not real, we're gonna discredit you.'
Then what the buggering fuckmuffins is the point of even bothering to make content? Just roll with it and have fun. Jesus Christ.
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tbqfh, if it isn't hurting someone directly or some overthetop claim like I AM LORD OF ALL JITA, WATCH AS I SMASH YOUR PATHETIC RP'D EVENT WITH A THOUSAND INVINCIBLE HETH CLONES UNDER MY COMMAND...so what? Maybe I'm not seeing the deeper problem here or something, but I just don't get why there's so much contention around this.
We're supposed to make content. Then someone makes content/something interesting a new. Then people say 'oh that's not real, we're gonna discredit you.'
Then what the buggering fuckmuffins is the point of even bothering to make content? Just roll with it and have fun. Jesus Christ.
If someone made content that said they owned the planet your beach channel was on, how would you feel about that?
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I'd shuffle that under the whole heth clone army thing, since said planet was placed in CONCORD specific space.
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Jesus Christ.
What does Jesus Christ have to do with godmod... Oh, I see what you did here. :!:
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Damn I didn't even see what I did there :eek:
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Okay, I think we're all overthinking this a lot. CCP isn't trying to poop on our worldbuilding. They're just providing factional flavoring on which to do it. Baselining in the Big Four is different depending on where you go.
Minmatar Republic - Nobody cares if you're one of those green sperm pilots.
Gallente Federation - "OMG IT'S A CAPSULEER CAN I HAVE UR AUTOGRAPH?!!??!"
Amarr Empire - "Lord Pilot. It is an honor to meet you, sir."
Caldari State - Don't blow your cover. Just don't.
The Caldari State is the only place that has any mention of getting shot on sight, and half of the people complaining in this thread don't baseline in Caldari areas with their main character anyways, so I don't see what all the fuss is about. Looking at you, Anslo. You can still be a celebrity with a limo and paparazzi drones snapping photos of you wherever you go, as long as you do it in the Fed.
The Caldari State simply expects capsuleers to remain low key and not attempt to throw their weight around. Those who do are quickly eliminated from the system. That's a trade-off for living outside the law in a totalitarian state. There are certain limits you just don't cross. You're already fabulously wealthy and legally invulnerable. Is it so much to ask for your character to not be a tremendous public jerkass with your newfound power and flip the finger to the authorities? I don't think so.
Just about everybody else in New Eden either grudgingly respect (Empire), celebrate (Federation), or ignore (Republic) the capsuleer's power.
So seriously? This is a non-issue, people.
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Looking at you, Anslo. You can still be a celebrity with a limo and paparazzi drones snapping photos of you wherever you go, as long as you do it in the Fed.
I'm famous? :eek:
But no that wasn't what I was really commenting on. It was more the fluff/player made stuff being shat on I was questioning (i.e. this threads OP). PF breaking is one thing, but trying to say someone's content breaks PF when...it really doesn't, and it's trying to add to the game for fun?....m8
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I've been thinking about it & I think I can see a way were Constantin Baracca could get away with preaching in the States without getting killed.
Assume that he really is in the employ of the Theology Council. This means he is directly associated with an allied government. What if the council has sold this as an experiment in social control to some of the megas? Unless I am mistaken Imperial theology is very big on the "obey your lawful superiors" angle. If the Bishop emphasises this in his sermons to Caldari workers, then it could act to reinforce existing corporate loyalty. In return he gets access to all the rejects of State society. Any he converts he can ship off and they cease to be a problem for the State authorities. He also prevents them falling under the sway of the Guristas, or some lesser criminal organisation.
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I've been thinking about it & I think I can see a way were Constantin Baracca could get away with preaching in the States without getting killed.
Assume that he really is in the employ of the Theology Council. This means he is directly associated with an allied government. What if the council has sold this as an experiment in social control to some of the megas? Unless I am mistaken Imperial theology is very big on the "obey your lawful superiors" angle. If the Bishop emphasises this in his sermons to Caldari workers, then it could act to reinforce existing corporate loyalty. In return he gets access to all the rejects of State society. Any he converts he can ship off and they cease to be a problem for the State authorities. He also prevents them falling under the sway of the Guristas, or some lesser criminal organisation.
Any time you say you want to do something public in the State, you MUST include the disclaimer that it's taken a lot of red tape and time and bribes to get permission to do it. Otherwise you're stretching credibility. The State does not like freelance people on their turf. Least of all those with lots of money.
It's entirely possible for Baracca to preach in the State, assuming he has all the proper permits and arrangements and blah blah blah set up ahead of time. The State does have political rallies, rock concerts, even legal protests; but they are all arranged through the proper channels beforehand. It's also worth noting that the State does not really care what religion you follow.
Finally, I'd like to point out that you can still just say Veik is talking histrionics out of her bunghole IC. Since when is everything our characters say automatically true or accurate? Do people really think everything Veikitamo says IC is gospel from the State? She's a pretty obvious example of showboating jackboots, and takes pride in it. I think you all might be taking her a bit too seriously. :P
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I've been thinking about it & I think I can see a way were Constantin Baracca could get away with preaching in the States without getting killed.
Assume that he really is in the employ of the Theology Council. This means he is directly associated with an allied government. What if the council has sold this as an experiment in social control to some of the megas? Unless I am mistaken Imperial theology is very big on the "obey your lawful superiors" angle. If the Bishop emphasises this in his sermons to Caldari workers, then it could act to reinforce existing corporate loyalty. In return he gets access to all the rejects of State society. Any he converts he can ship off and they cease to be a problem for the State authorities. He also prevents them falling under the sway of the Guristas, or some lesser criminal organisation.
Any time you say you want to do something public in the State, you MUST include the disclaimer that it's taken a lot of red tape and time and bribes to get permission to do it. Otherwise you're stretching credibility. The State does not like freelance people on their turf. Least of all those with lots of money.
It's entirely possible for Baracca to preach in the State, assuming he has all the proper permits and arrangements and blah blah blah set up ahead of time. The State does have political rallies, rock concerts, even legal protests; but they are all arranged through the proper channels beforehand. It's also worth noting that the State does not really care what religion you follow.
As another, fictional, thinker replied "I believe that is what I just said Captain." :D
Finally, I'd like to point out that you can still just say Veik is talking histrionics out of her bunghole IC. Since when is everything our characters say automatically true or accurate? Do people really think everything Veikitamo says IC is gospel from the State? She's a pretty obvious example of showboating jackboots, and takes pride in it. I think you all might be taking her a bit too seriously. :P
Not really giving much thought to Veik. Not having roleplayed with her I don't really have any view on her IC. I just had the notion of what might explain that one character being able to operate overtly without official sanction.
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The main reason I disagree with trying to preach to the Caldari is that it flies in the face of a lot of PF, and makes little sense given the highly controlled nature of Caldari corporate society.
1.) Caldari are cultural purists. This is their "thing". Why in the world would they want other cultural influences, up to and including their allies? They fought a war over that kinda thing. After all, the Gallente used to be their allies too.
From Caldari: Demographics
The corporations emphasize this in their enculturation process, enforcing a single Caldari culture and identity for the purposes of unity and cohesion.
The megacorps actively and methodically go to great lengths to insure cultural homogeneity. Allowing a preacher from another culture hoping to break that homogeneity would literally make no sense. Literally, one reason many Caldari players are reacting so poorly to this is that it directly contradicts the stated goals of the State itself, and therefor their characters' goals as well.
2.) According to PF, Caldari corporate citizens are highly indoctrinated, and megacorporation control and Caldari enculturation is strictly monitored and enforced.
Again, from Caldari:demographics
Where corporate control is weak and/or threatened by non-Caldari influences (such as colonial outposts in remote areas or space stations on major spacelanes), citizens are frequently rotated between locations, resulting in very few permanent residents in these places.
Certainly, a preacher seeking to spread another religion, i.e. a non-Caldari influence, would certainly mean that the megacorps would rotate and isolate their citizens away from such things. Otherwise, none of the above statements make any sense.
How would you seek to limit non-Caldari influences, actively and aggressive seek to maintain a singular Caldari culture and identity, but allow foreign missionaries and preachers access to your population? You cant really. Hence, people having a problem with this storyline.
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Gotti has excellent points. Rebuttal, sir?!
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The main reason I disagree with trying to preach to the Caldari is that it flies in the face of a lot of PF, and makes little sense given the highly controlled nature of Caldari corporate society.
1.) Caldari are cultural purists. This is their "thing". Why in the world would they want other cultural influences, up to and including their allies? They fought a war over that kinda thing. After all, the Gallente used to be their allies too.
From Caldari: Demographics
The corporations emphasize this in their enculturation process, enforcing a single Caldari culture and identity for the purposes of unity and cohesion.
The megacorps actively and methodically go to great lengths to insure cultural homogeneity. Allowing a preacher from another culture hoping to break that homogeneity would literally make no sense. Literally, one reason many Caldari players are reacting so poorly to this is that it directly contradicts the stated goals of the State itself, and therefor their characters' goals as well.
2.) According to PF, Caldari corporate citizens are highly indoctrinated, and megacorporation control and Caldari enculturation is strictly monitored and enforced.
Again, from Caldari:demographics
Where corporate control is weak and/or threatened by non-Caldari influences (such as colonial outposts in remote areas or space stations on major spacelanes), citizens are frequently rotated between locations, resulting in very few permanent residents in these places.
Certainly, a preacher seeking to spread another religion, i.e. a non-Caldari influence, would certainly mean that the megacorps would rotate and isolate their citizens away from such things. Otherwise, none of the above statements make any sense.
How would you seek to limit non-Caldari influences, actively and aggressive seek to maintain a singular Caldari culture and identity, but allow foreign missionaries and preachers access to your population? You cant really. Hence, people having a problem with this storyline.
Like I said, I definitely have an explanation for that. I thought everyone would have gotten it by now, but I'm not going to spoil it for everyone who didn't. If you want the explanation, you'll have to contact me directly. People from all cultures, not just the Caldari ones, who believe in their own cultural hegemony are supposed to initially wonder how the Hell he's doing this in their space. It's really only a few people who've OOC really believed it couldn't happen, considering how religion has pretty much crept in and survived even in the most blatantly anti-theological historical examples. That, and it isn't like religion is illegal in Caldari space.
If that's not enough clues, I'll give you a blatant one. It is very, very, VERY important that Constantin Baracca is a bishop. Specifically a bishop.
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If that's not enough clues, I'll give you a blatant one. It is very, very, VERY important that Constantin Baracca is a bishop. Specifically a bishop.
Diagonal moves are best moves.
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If that's not enough clues, I'll give you a blatant one. It is very, very, VERY important that Constantin Baracca is a bishop. Specifically a bishop.
Diagonal moves are best moves.
Good to see I wasn't the only person who thought chess. :P
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If that's not enough clues, I'll give you a blatant one. It is very, very, VERY important that Constantin Baracca is a bishop. Specifically a bishop.
I assume you know that not everyone is a Christian, and that many people who are Christian are in churches where there's no such thing as a 'bishop,' and the Amarr aren't space Christians so assuming that a bishop has the same status, abilities, and background you'd see in whatever sect of Christianity you're drawing from isn't something people are going to do.
To me, saying 'I am a bishop' is the same as saying 'I am a Lord;' it just indicates you have a title of authority.
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Keep in mind some people might be only tangentially involved and might not be delving into this plotline or the behind-the-scenes mystery unravelling. Maybe this gets discussed IC after it is over with the IGS or similar? To people not involved they'll make their assumptions about what and what isn't possible, but you of course can't run your whole gameplay based on that.
My two cents finds the concept a bit dubious along the lines of Gotti's reasoning earlier, but I'll see how it turns out!
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Vic, as a player, saying "my character is a bishop, and thus can do x,y, or z" doesnt really mean much to me, since to my knowledge there isnt any real description of the Amarrian church or its ranking system to validate what a bishop is. Right now, your character is trying to fly in the face of PF, and merely creating more player-created fluff as justification to go against PF is a rather circular argument.
Im sorry, I really dont think you could create a preacher who sets up shop in the Caldari megacorps as realistic or valid given more PF and players (rather reasonable) interpretation of it. Moreover, youre asking a bunch of people who have invested years of their life creating characters and world building to change because of a character idea that doesnt easily or coherently jive with PF. You're going to get pushback on that.
However.
If I may, I would like to humbly make a suggestion to your character that would
1.) make your character suddenly 100% compliant with PF
2.) only subtly change your theme, you would be able to preach to Caldari (basically)
3.) would explore and expand on PF in a way that no one else has (to my knowledge)
4.) would actually give you the chance to RP with the Caldari bloc in unique and interesting ways.
5.) Literally makes a vast amount of "real life sense", would turn your character from "swimming upstream against PF" to "yeah, I could totally see that happening if EVE was real life"
Basically, its this. Dont preach to the Caldari per se. To the megacorp citizens. They already have their religion, and their priests, and those priests are jealous and refuse to share their followers. (i.e. meritocary, caldari cultural ideal, etc) They like their religion, they're the Chosen Ones as far as theyre concerned, and they really wouldnt want to hear about another way.
Preach to the Caldari "Non-entities".
From Caldari demographics
The meritocratic and ultracompetitive nature of the State means there are just as many winners as there are losers. The non-entity caste are the disenfranchised individuals of the State, having lost absolutely everything (including their citizenship) due to their failure to keep up with what many call a social form of natural selection[9]. The State has the largest ratio of its population considered impoverished, although authorities do not account for these groups in census reports. As social inequality and poverty is morally justified according to Caldari meritocracy, the wider State is not held back by having to concern itself with taking care of what society dub as failures and effectively non-Caldari. Many are expected to undertake a form of ritual suicide rather than live in the shame and dishonor of being non-entity.
I mean, good lord, these people are dying for a new leader, a new way of life. They're the poor, the desperate, the outcasts, the losers of the great Caldari rat race, and they would be desperate and eager to here about a new path, a new religion, a new cause that tells them they're the Children of God, not the dispossessed orphans of the Meritocracy.
Moreover, the megacorps wouldnt really care (at least right away) that you're preaching to people they dont consider as Caldari. More PF:
Non-entities inhabit fringe communities outside of corporate-controlled territory within Caldari space. As rural areas on planets tend to be void of any corporate presence outside of automated facilities, non-entity communities can be found here. The Guristas frequently use these locations as a staging area for organized crime or military operations against the State. In other cases, entire worlds are inhabited by these non-entities. Because Caldari authorities do not consider non-entities to have any rights or protections, they will displace or otherwise eradicate communities deemed to be a threat to the order. Some of the Practical-leaning corporations may employ non-entities on a very minute wage in industries that are illegal or otherwise questionable.
Constantin would find vast communities, even entire worlds, basically removed from the highly regimented megacorp control. Literally, in real life terms, these communities would be ripe for missionary work, and it would totally make sense that these communities would want 1.) a new religion and sense of identity and 2.) connections with a powerful and wealthy entity like the Empire.
Suddenly, you're 100% compliant with PF, youre preaching to Caldari still (frankly, most players couldnt really tell you the difference), you've created a very plausible situation for religious conversion, created new RP opportunities, and suddenly have tons of room for unique world building. The RP opportunities would be massive, and it would only be a slight tweak to your character as it stands.
I really hope you take up my suggestion, because I think everyone "wins".
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vOv IDK what a Bishop is capable of and I'm Amarr.
I made up my religious title and what it is capable of. (Witness Shahni is how to properly address her as clergy).
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Answering all this in no particular order, but starting with Gottii...
I'm not sure why you think I can't give a decent argument even if you haven't asked me or why any of this is exceptionally difficult to buy into. Still, it's almost certain that's a segment of the population Constantin preaches to (as he's intimated, he's very concerned with disenfranchised people all over the cluster). If you want to imagine that his entire congregation is made up of non-entities, then that's fine. There's a perfectly easy way to reach the Caldari population that really doesn't seem that complicated and, considering there are quite a few Caldari players working through this stuff ICly, it's definitely not a unilateral problem. If that's what you need to assume to squeeze it into your RP so that Constantin's ministry isn't shredding your character's reality for the State, then by all means just go with that. It's not essentially important who specifically Constantin is reaching with the ministry, only that he's doing it and the way he's doing it. I'm just worried that ministering to the non-entities is going to give Constantin a lot more political power than I really wanted him to have. He's meant to integrate and operate in these societies, not begin carving a feifdom out of the cluster. He's very, very obviously not an executive authority, he's a minister. It might be easier to earn Caldari ire by essentially taking over their dredges and creating a loyal workforce out of them than by trying to work with the government so he didn't step on toes. You guys are the experts, though, so if you want me to play that angle, I can.
As to Christian background, I'm not a Catholic and haven't been to church since I was six. Considering they use the same ecclesiastical titles and New Latin sounding language, I'm not sure how "not Christian" we're supposed to make the Amarrian religion. CCP didn't spawn it in a vacuum as original content. Before I played an Amarrian priest of any kind, I looked over the Amarrian religion stuff as well as doing some background research on Catholic practice to back up my RP. CCP doesn't give you a ton of details, so it's up to us to fill in the gaps. I actually was trying to incorporate some East Orthodox into it, but I didn't think it would gel with the people already using Catholic titles and duties, like Gaven playing a cardinal. I had to make sure he and others outranked me, but it was very important that Constantin is a bishop. It's the same as us essentially figuring that a megacorporation works like a corporation here on earth. We've got every indication that they do, they use the same titles so far, so it stands to reason that we can assume a CEO and board operate the same way than figuring that the CEO needs to consult the janitor just because we don't have that specific information. If it's really bothering people that I'm filling in the holes with historical background rather than creating a completely idiosyncratic rank or job nobody would recognize, it might be best to know what information I am allowed to include and what I'm not. We're obviously getting most of this stuff from real life and history if it's not spelled out, and a lot is not spelled out.
To fill everyone in on the basics if they're curious, bishops have some authority, but they're definitely not anywhere near being a duke or viscount. You could make that case for an archbishop and definitely a cardinal, but I wouldn't usually figure that with a plain-jane bishop. Despite being a cool-sounding title, they're essentially the first step of administrative authority above a church level. All the higher senior functions, those you'd probably attribute to a marquis, are much higher order bishops.
If you're trying to match his rank up to a traditional feudal lordship, I suppose bishop translates best to baron. He's really not very high on the ecclesiastical food chain, despite how stunningly huge his territory is. For modern comparison, a bishop is nominally the authority over a diocese. The entirety of the Catholic world is divided into a little over 2200 dioceses, averaging about 550,000 parishioners per diocese. I figure that proportion pans out, but your church leader isn't a legal authority. I've made sure Constantin truthfully assures people he isn't an executive authority. There is a part of the Theology Council that handles that sort of thing, but I figured that a bishop can't overrule the Privy Council's purely legal representatives in the area. I get the impression that they have a fairly limited executive role, centered wholly on heresy over regular crime. Constantin isn't even that, he's a minister. His role is purely ecclesiastical.
I hope that gives you a sense of scale and purpose. I'm not an expert, but I can go over the ecclesiastical stuff I use as references. In the interest of giving people some background, as Silas has rightly pointed out that some people might not be following along with all the bits, I've included some spoilers....
[spoiler]
Trust me, he's not walking into these places and demanding anything, as you've probably noted from his manner. Even if he was Cardinal Constantin Baracca the other three empires don't owe him any kind of consideration, and he's outranked by cardinals by about seven or eight steps. As he's enumerated, time and again, he largely succeeds as a foreign minister by being likable, affable, and cooperative with local governments. He succeeds, but not by being confrontational or asserting his authority anywhere. Obviously he absolutely cannot afford to be seen as a foreign government operative, especially where the Caldari are concerned. Luckily, it's true on his part. Constantin's family has more influence and he has members of his family in the Theology Council in MUCH higher areas, but he himself due to his position and mandate has little direct political influence back home. He's on his own out there, a situation that isn't changing anytime soon.
Really, it's all a matter of scale. Constantin is succeeding beyond his superiors' wildest dreams (or nightmares), but it isn't like he's commanding whole planets or even whole territories. He might have a lot of followers based on force of personality, his tireless ministry, and his comparatively accommodating teaching style, but spread out across the other three empires entire populations, he's nowhere near a powerful enough political force to register in any one place. His ministry is spread out across the cluster in little patches and sometimes single individuals who might be the only ones in their entire region who need an officiate of the faith. Unlike a lot of other dioceses, most of Constantin's "diocese" is full of non-believers he is trying to convert, rather than being full of state-doctrinated parishioners. He's got his work cut out for him.
Simply put, Constantin is a minor officiate who has probably the biggest diocese in terms of raw population (because with that many people, it's easy to get that many followers listening in) but almost nothing in terms of population density. He actually really lacks rank and resources even not considering the vastness of space, and thus he has to sort of improvise, especially since the law isn't necessarily built to favor him in the space he ministers in.
The big question people should probably be asking is related to why the status quo stands. If the Theology Council outright hated him and what he was doing, they'd recall him or replace him. If they outright loved him and were ready to go full-force into his ministry, they'd promote him and give him more resources. If they loved what he was doing and hated him, they'd install someone over his head. But none of these things are happening. Constantin's had to improvise a diocese out of this situation and continues to sort of fend for his flock without any further help coming from the Council itself.
So those are sort of the central mysteries. If you want me to just tell you up front how he's pulling this off and how this relates to his superiors, send me an EVEmail.[/spoiler]
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It looks like you've obviously put quite a bit of thought into how this works and plays out, so like I said I'm looking to see how it all plays out. I think I initially was picturing this person 'causing trouble' in the more traditional street-preacher sort of way, which yes would get squashed pretty fast in the State. It sounds like you've been thinking quite a bit about all of this and will have some places to go with it.
Gotti did have an excellent suggestion, though, and one that makes a ton of sense to me.
Also any thought to 'preaching' only to the corporate leadership? The sort of way that a lot of high-powered executives have 'guru's they all follow around?
It would be quite an interesting thing to have an Amarr 'guru' as an advisor to some caldari executives. Maybe he writes a self-improvement book about the 'paths to success' like you see in all the bookstores and this one happens to have all suggestions that coincide with central tenants of Amarr faith :P
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It looks like you've obviously put quite a bit of thought into how this works and plays out, so like I said I'm looking to see how it all plays out. I think I initially was picturing this person 'causing trouble' in the more traditional street-preacher sort of way, which yes would get squashed pretty fast in the State. It sounds like you've been thinking quite a bit about all of this and will have some places to go with it.
Gotti did have an excellent suggestion, though, and one that makes a ton of sense to me.
Also any thought to 'preaching' only to the corporate leadership? The sort of way that a lot of high-powered executives have 'guru's they all follow around?
It would be quite an interesting thing to have an Amarr 'guru' as an advisor to some caldari executives. Maybe he writes a self-improvement book about the 'paths to success' like you see in all the bookstores and this one happens to have all suggestions that coincide with central tenants of Amarr faith :P
I can already see that happening.
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I actually was trying to incorporate some East Orthodox into it, but I didn't think it would gel with the people already using Catholic titles and duties, like Gaven playing a cardinal.
You mean Graelyn, I think. Also, not everyone goes with the Catholic influences. There's room for multiple inspirations as the Empire is a big place.
[spoiler]
Really, it's all a matter of scale. Constantin is succeeding beyond his superiors' wildest dreams (or nightmares), but it isn't like he's commanding whole planets or even whole territories. He might have a lot of followers based on force of personality, his tireless ministry, and his comparatively accommodating teaching style, but spread out across the other three empires entire populations, he's nowhere near a powerful enough political force to register in any one place. His ministry is spread out across the cluster in little patches and sometimes single individuals who might be the only ones in their entire region who need an officiate of the faith. Unlike a lot of other dioceses, most of Constantin's "diocese" is full of non-believers he is trying to convert, rather than being full of state-doctrinated parishioners. He's got his work cut out for him.
Simply put, Constantin is a minor officiate who has probably the biggest diocese in terms of raw population (because with that many people, it's easy to get that many followers listening in) but almost nothing in terms of population density. He actually really lacks rank and resources even not considering the vastness of space, and thus he has to sort of improvise, especially since the law isn't necessarily built to favor him in the space he ministers in.
The big question people should probably be asking is related to why the status quo stands. If the Theology Council outright hated him and what he was doing, they'd recall him or replace him. If they outright loved him and were ready to go full-force into his ministry, they'd promote him and give him more resources. If they loved what he was doing and hated him, they'd install someone over his head. But none of these things are happening. Constantin's had to improvise a diocese out of this situation and continues to sort of fend for his flock without any further help coming from the Council itself.[/spoiler]
Keep in mind that Constantin is not the only foreign minister. I've gotten the impression from your posts that you think what he's doing is a new and original thing, but it isn't.
Yonis seems to believe the carrot is more effective than the stick and has funded religious missions to every civilized empire...
... Yonis also pushes for an Empire that is cut off from outsiders, except for converts. This includes limiting trade, diplomacy, and military aggression, with the only Amarr traveling outside the Empire being limited to missionaries.
- Ardishapur Family (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ardishapur_Family#Politics), EVElopedia
Note that article supports the idea of missioning to the Caldari, as it says religious mission have been funded to EVERY civilized empire. It's all about -how- it is done.
Also, on another note, keep in mind that Constantin doesn't have to have any formal position in the Theology Council to be a bishop. The Theology Council is mainly an overhead arbitrator, mainly serving purpose as a religious supreme court (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Government_of_the_Amarr_Empire#Theology_Council), which isn't what I see Constantin doing. The various churches and clergy fall under their authority, but aren't really 'members' of it.
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There are/were "Bishops" in the various Amarrian churches, at least in the past.
The Letters of Bishop Dalamaid are an ingame item.
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I must say you have put a lot of thought into this, so take what follows as musing suggestions rather than massive criticism:
I think the more you can get away from the catholicism the better. There are catholic elements in Amarr, but I would not think that diocese style administration would be part of those elements.
One of the big problems with Catholic admin as a model is that it embraces a separation of church and state (to the point of trying to force kings to recognize that separation) and Amarr really does not even have the concept. So it seems unlikely to me that Amarr would have separate political and religious administrative districts as i cannot imagine a holder ceding that authority.
I really like the idea that some amarrians would try preaching to the masses of the caldari, but that wouldn't be a bishops spot by my read. An Abel Jerek type could do it, but I wouldn't expect a bishop to do so.
Silas' idea of trying a top down conversion seems more likely to me to be the main Amarrian approach for the Caldari. I really like the idea that Amarrians would concentrate on trying to convert the Caldari bigwigs first. That matches the pattern we see in other places like the nefantir.
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Actually, I don't think that the catholic (and orthodox) administration embraces a seperation of state and church - quite the contrary (It only tried to force Kings to accept the 'seperation' in so far as the King has no authority over the church, not though vice versa. I'd argue that is also more a political move rather than an inherent Feature of how the catholic Administration works.), so much as simply having to exist in an environment where that seperation is a reality. The Vatican is goverbned by the same Administration and does not know a seperation of state and church (obviously) and the byzantine ecclasiastical hierarchy and Administration worked the same, without as much seperation as in feudal Europe at the same time (and even there the seperation wasn't as clear-cut as it is nowadays).
I also think that PF suggests that the hierarchy of the Amarr is similar enough to the catholic/orthodox model to apply the titles, which has - as has been pointed out - been done in the PF. There are few as highly organized religions around as orthodox/catholic Christianity and this hierarchical organization fits the Amarr Religion quite well, I think. (And I say that even though I see that this brings the danger of rampant 'space Catholicism', something I'm quite averse to :( )
I think Samira said something quite important: "Also, on another note, keep in mind that Constantin doesn't have to have any formal position in the Theology Council to be a bishop. The Theology Council is mainly an overhead arbitrator, mainly serving purpose as a religious supreme court, which isn't what I see Constantin doing. The various churches and clergy fall under their authority, but aren't really 'members' of it."
I'd guess that most people of the Cloth have Little to do with the TC, save for being members of a church that is accepted by the TC. There seems to be a main Church in the Empire, an "Amarr orthodox church" which pretty much is at the core of what is considered orthodox and probably has most Connections to the TC and has most influence on the TC rulings (e.g. through most TC officials stemming from the "Amarr orthodox church"). Then there are other TC approved churches (like the Ammatar church) and movements (like the Khanid ones), which in turn accept the primacy of the TC on doctrinal rulings. Here again, the Situation seems to me to be a lot like in the Catholic Situation, where the Catholic church is made up by the Roman Catholic Church and 22 to other autonomous particular churches. (It seems to me that the Amarrian Religion is quite similar in organization to the Catholic Church - where it differs quite sharply is in doctrine.)
So, to be a 'TC approved bishop' one wouldn't really need exdpress TC approval or be somehow directly associated with the TC, but merely Needs to be a Bishop of any of these TC approved churches.
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Declaring to the king that he has no authority over the church is absolutely enforcing a separation. The entire concept of render unto caesar what is caesar's is a separation. Also the statement that the byzantine and vatican heirarchies worked the same is just flat out wrong.
I am not talking about a separation in the modern sense, the separation of church and state in the middle ages assumed that everyone was of the religion and guided by it. But it does represent a separation of authority. It was a claim by the church that the church had authority over itself.
I do not think Amarr has that claim at any point.
The byzantine world pre-1204 works a bit better for comparison, the church administration for the most part mirroring the secular nodes of administration. The emperor and his officials were able to meddle in church politics to a fairly large degree. But even there there is at least some idea that you can have a "Good emperor who was bad to the church."
I dont think Amarr has room for this. It seems likely to me that Amarr religious districts would follow administrative districts first, and I expect that the holders are extremely invested and controlling in the appointment of higher religious officials in their domains.
One interesting question this raises for me is whether you can even have a amarrian bishop active in an area not controlled by Amarr. It seems to me that a side effect of no church state separation is that the Amarrians would be somewhat leary of churches formed in areas not under Amarrian control. They definitely send missionaries, but it seems to me that the goal of those missionaries isn't so much bringing people into the church, but rather facilitating the region's future incorporation into the Amarrian state.
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I am pretty sure that you have a solid explanation, but keep in mind that if it's about connections and fame/appreciation, there is still that almost impermeable wall to foreigners in the Caldari State to break their rules. For example, when they denied the offer of assistance proposed by Ducia to bring expert mining slaves to rescue the caldari mining team that was stuck in an asteroid. That, even if it meant their death, just because otherwise would have been breaking State law (funnily enough, the Caldari population got rather outraged by their own authorities on that occasion).
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So I have been thinking more about how Amarr missionaries would work since my musings yesterday, and I think its definitely worth considering that Amarr probably considers conversion incomplete unless it results in a change of allegiance to Amarr. That is, you cannot convert to Amarr unless you renounce loyalty to whatever system of government you are living under.
This suggests to me that the Amarr people responsible for funding missionary activity would view missionaries as offensive weapons in the reclaiming.
Further, it also suggests a etiquette to who the missionaries are sent to is probably in effect. So I would expect that Amarrian missionaries are sent to disaffected elements of hostile states. So in the Republic and Federation the lower classes and outcaste types would be the target. The direct goal would be to create a fifth column within the hostile state to help in its eventual overthrow.
With an allied state, the goal would be to avoid insulting them and to find a way to incorporate them into the Amarrian government wholesale. So for the Caldari, I would expect that missionaries are sent to the corporate overlords in the hopes that the megacorps could be incorporated one day into the Amarrian religion. I doubt that Amarrian authorities would approve of missions to the Caldari masses, because that would jeopardize the alliance with the higher up Caldari and risk causing the goal of converting the higher ups of the state to fail.
To make it into a rule of thumb: Amarr would always try to convert the highest officials first so long as the target is friendly, because that allows the most seamless integration of the target into the Empire, only if that fails and the highest officials of the target become hostile to Amarr would Amarr aim at the lowest elements of society and try to ferment internal rebellion.
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I'd actually say that the Catholic model is a pretty decent model to work on as well, all things being in a vacuum. I'm sure it's not exactly the same, but we've got nothing else to go on save that they use primarily Catholic titles. As far as having bishops being sent into foreign space, that's not without precedent historically either. There are dioceses pretty much everywhere in the world, even places that are not predominantly Catholic. Since they aren't namely political entities, they don't really have a legal claim, but there is, for instance, a Metropolitan Archbishop of Tehran. Just because the Amarr don't namely own the space doesn't mean they can't send a bishop. Statistically, how many citizens live in hisec? Trillions? The U.S., with a population of 313 million, has 11,000 registered, practicing Zoroastrians. They are .004% of the population. That would mean even if the entire cluster was just a trillion people, and if that cluster only had as many people practicing the Amarrian faith as there are American Zoroastrians, there would still be four billion people practicing the Amarrian religion. Considering how much space they control, I suppose it's hard to imagine that their religious ideas haven't leaked out at all. It's just a matter of statistical scale.
It's not a new idea, but as the reaction from the community shows, it's definitely not something people are used to. Constantin's bottom-up approach seems fairly new, though, which is why that non-entity in Caldari space ministry thing is probably true to some degree or another (it doesn't matter to me how much people attribute his work to them or to Caldari businessmen, since Constantin is never very specific about it).
I've related Constantin to the Theology Council specifically because I didn't think they'd let him go out there and pull a Martin Luther in foreign space. To be fair, you can assume it isn't a universally popular position, but it doesn't seem like it's anathema to all Amarrians, just the more old-school conquering type. Plenty of people want to just conquer foreign space and MAKE them Amarrian, but that's proved to not essentially work in converting them for the glory of God. Constantin is an evangelical that doesn't particularly buy into the idea of warfare leading to conversion. Obviously, the Minmatar were conquered, and they weren't converted. Essentially, he was sent out into foreign space without much besides a stipend and a couple of staff without a lot of good examples to draw on. He's improvised ever since.
[spoiler]The idea is that the Theology Council is VERY divided about how he's done it. His ideas aren't universally loved, but they've proven effective even on the IGS at softening some of the vitriol people have for the religion. He's also had to improvise using his position and what abilities he has. The Theology Council has too many conflicting officials that can't decide whether Constantin's method is a courageous and powerful way to continue the Reclaiming without warfare or a giant misstep that is producing believers who aren't necessarily loyal to the crown. They've had the effect of cancelling each other out so far, keeping Constantin at his present rank but without recalling or replacing him. So Constantin is simply carrying on with his mandate as it stands, doing what he can to promote the religion outside his space.
It's really not as much about what he's doing in other space as much as how people react to him. He's very obviously a multiculturalist and an evangelical, so he has a lot of play that keeps him from being an easily pinned-down UAD type. People from every background and empire have good reasons to love or hate him, or even to have completely conflicted reactions to him. That's sort of the point.[/spoiler]
I do all this research and work not to make characters who are perfectly adherent to every detail, but so that my characters can't be defined in a few words and dismissed. If it was possible to say that all people of such-and-such background are then obviously such-and-such, the playing field becomes flat and characters become less idiosyncratic and much less stimulating. I am trying to cover as many details as I can and to not throw up too much of a wake, but that isn't really the point of RP to me. RP is meant to be about making new and interesting characters, especially those who aren't lost in a sea of their race, their culture, or even people doing the exact same job as they are. RP shouldn't be about chess pieces and worrying specifically about how they move. It's about group writing and being interesting.
Really, I go over the minutiae, over and over, simply because in games like this I absolutely have to or we'll all get bogged down in these kinds of arguments and forget about the important stuff. Arguing lore isn't really a lot of fun. Having a character that I have fun reacting with and that people have fun reacting to one way or another is the reason I like roleplaying. It's creative writing at its most entertaining. If shifting details makes it fit for you, then anyone can consider the minutiae however they'd like. The important part isn't about what his title is. Truth be told, that's how I know how well I've been doing at the RP bit.
Does a character bring out subtleties in other characters that make them stand out from each other? I hope Constantin does, because that's what I aim for as an artist in this obscure little genre.
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The issue I am struggling with, Constantin, is that the way I see it the *core* Amarr belief is submission to the chosen of God, that is the True Amarr and the Emperor. Catholics can argue when they set up a foreign mission that people can be loyal to the church and their local governments, render unto Caesar and all that; Amarrian's can't argue that. Anyone who converts to Amarr changes political loyalty as well as religious loyalty.
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I think the current relationship between the Kingdom and the Empire suggests otherwise.
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I think the current relationship between the Kingdom and the Empire suggests otherwise.
Good point. But that would argue to Constantin being sponsored by a source outside the Theology Council, say one of the "moderate" heirs, but with his contacts in the council giving him enough political cover to prevent him being declared a heretic.
Incidentally, does anyone know if Father Goose is still flying? I suspect Constantin's could have a bit of fun interacting with him.
As a non-imperial roleplayer it's nice to have an imperial character I have some IC justification for Arnulf to talk to (even if it is to help Arnulf research his way-out-there thesis on the Imperial faith being a heresy of something older :D).
One final point. The Empire is huge and, has already been agreed, has a lot of variation in how people practice the faith within the remit given by the Theology Council. Surely within that it would be possible to have groups that come over as slightly Roman Catholic, or Orthodox, or even Muslim in the way they do things? Of course to a contemporary Christian or Muslim they would be heretics of the worst sort. That makes it even funnier, and more tragic.
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There are plenty of Caldari people who have converted to one of the Amarr religions.
The Gallente call them "Terrorists" in the mission in which this is mentioned.
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It's my belief that any Caldari who openly convert to the Amarrian Faith would find themselves as one of the unattached VERY quickly - unless they were absolutely irreplacable.
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I think the current relationship between the Kingdom and the Empire suggests otherwise.
Except that Khanid II is still true Amarr and was a valid contender for the throne, so the split there doesn't really conflict with the core Amarr message being obeying the chosen. Its an internal disagreement about who the chosen are.
I am going to maintain that conversion to Amarr means renouncing your other political loyalties. This would be true if someone converted to the Khanid faction of Amarr as well, its just that the new loyalty would be to Khanid rather than Jamyl. What I don't think you can have is a Caldari convert to Amarr who stays loyal to the megacorps.
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The issue I am struggling with, Constantin, is that the way I see it the *core* Amarr belief is submission to the chosen of God, that is the True Amarr and the Emperor. Catholics can argue when they set up a foreign mission that people can be loyal to the church and their local governments, render unto Caesar and all that; Amarrian's can't argue that. Anyone who converts to Amarr changes political loyalty as well as religious loyalty.
I don't agree at all: The core of the Amarrian faith isn't Submission to the True Amarr at all. To God, yes, but not to the True Amarr - otherwise we wouldn't have ethnical Khanid holders, ni-Kunni Holders, Udorian Holders and Heirs and the Assimians are factually not distinguished from True Amarr anymore.
I agree though that conversion means also that one acquires new loyalties. These might conflict with the ones one have. As conversion to the Amarrian Religion is a precndition to acquiring Amarr citizenship, it is implied logically that one can convert without acquiring citizenship, though. Maybe I dig out the respective passages of PF.
As to the byzantine church hierarchy and Administration working so differently from the Roman catholic: I still maintain that this isn't the case, especially fot the middle ages: It's not as if emperors haven't had influence on the Pope and for a time it was even the byzantine emperor who placed the Bishops of Rome on their thrones. Basically both have the same ranks, from deacon over priest to bishop and they have the same Basic functions to fulfill. This isn't so surprising, given that until the Great Schism (1054) Eastern and Western Christianity were considering themselves a single church.
Differences in how the Administration interacts with secular branches aren't really - as interesting as they may be and as important as they may be for the different directions the churches took after the Great Schism - that essential. The fundamentals are quite similar and it's no accident that under Benedikt the Oikumene with the Orthodoxy made much more Progres than among the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestants. the somewhat higher centralisation of the RC church with it's particular churches, though, is something that fits the Amarrian Religion far better than the multiple, factually Independent patriarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Churches.
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Just look at the number of anti popes through centuries and you will end up pretty much convinced that a lot of religious figures were put in their place due to their connections/alliances with lords, and vice versa.
The issue I am struggling with, Constantin, is that the way I see it the *core* Amarr belief is submission to the chosen of God, that is the True Amarr and the Emperor. Catholics can argue when they set up a foreign mission that people can be loyal to the church and their local governments, render unto Caesar and all that; Amarrian's can't argue that. Anyone who converts to Amarr changes political loyalty as well as religious loyalty.
Maybe but i'm not so sure it's that radical. We know that there are believers outside of the Empire, gallente natives or else, that worship the same religion (more or less). Yet they didnt move to Amarr space as soon as they converted, and still live in their native countries.
One could argue that it means they didnt truly converted, but that would be biased and what I would expect from a hardliner, and becomes a matter of definition, much like there are many definitions for what it is to be Matari, Caldari, or whatever.
It's my belief that any Caldari who openly convert to the Amarrian Faith would find themselves as one of the unattached VERY quickly - unless they were absolutely irreplacable.
I'm not sure of that either, since there is no real state religion in the State. It would say that it mostly depends of the people above the individual, like IRL. Like it would be the same for homosexuality. I would not be surprised to see that it's the same kind of taboo.
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The issue I am struggling with, Constantin, is that the way I see it the *core* Amarr belief is submission to the chosen of God, that is the True Amarr and the Emperor. Catholics can argue when they set up a foreign mission that people can be loyal to the church and their local governments, render unto Caesar and all that; Amarrian's can't argue that. Anyone who converts to Amarr changes political loyalty as well as religious loyalty.
I don't agree at all: The core of the Amarrian faith isn't Submission to the True Amarr at all. To God, yes, but not to the True Amarr - otherwise we wouldn't have ethnical Khanid holders, ni-Kunni Holders, Udorian Holders and Heirs and the Assimians are factually not distinguished from True Amarr anymore.
As to the byzantine church hierarchy and Administration working so differently from the Roman catholic: I still maintain that this isn't the case, especially fot the middle ages: It's not as if emperors haven't had influence on the Pope and for a time it was even the byzantine emperor who placed the Bishops of Rome on their thrones. Basically both have the same ranks, from deacon over priest to bishop and they have the same Basic functions to fulfill. This isn't so surprising, given that until the Great Schism (1054) Eastern and Western Christianity were considering themselves a single church.
I think what Gaven meant is that you cannot become a believer and accept the Gallente/Caldari or so political order. The Emperor is part of the scriptures and cannot be ignored.
But I also would not limit the concept of being chosen to True Amarr, but to everyone who has an established place within the religious and political framework of Amarr. (We know from pf that there are Udorian saints and also saints from other ethnicities.) But since all heirs are True Amarr (or True Amarr mixed with Udorian ancestry) there definitely is a racial prejudice when it comes to the top echelons of the ruling class—at least in the proper Empire. And this might reflect into what is happening in rituals and so on. For sure there has been some kind of accommodating action and counteraction (like we see with Ardishapour in the Mandate).
tl;dr: “Becoming Amarr” also involves accepting its political order; somehow.
Differences in how the Administration interacts with secular branches aren't really - as interesting as they may be and as important as they may be for the different directions the churches took after the Great Schism - that essential. The fundamentals are quite similar and it's no accident that under Benedikt the Oikumene with the Orthodoxy made much more Progres than among the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestants. the somewhat higher centralisation of the RC church with it's particular churches, though, is something that fits the Amarrian Religion far better than the multiple, factually Independent patriarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Churches.
I think the pre-Ardishapour mandate and the Khanid Kingdom serve as good counter-examples your statement. They have their Khanid and Ammatar churches, they can't ignore the Emperor as a symbolic head of church, but have their own independent leaders. The Emancipation Degree didn't take effect in the Kingdom, the Order of St. Tetrimon wasn't outlawed, they even have their own Saints, much like the Orthodox Churches. Most doctrines are the same, but the branches develop independently and have their separate heads while acknowledging a symbolic one.
(The Ammtar thing: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/orthodox-amarr-faith-increasingly-supplanting-ammatar-church/)
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I know about These things, but it really is more like the Catholic Church, which - as is apparently a Little klnown fact - is made up of 23 autonomous particular churches. Most doctrines are the same, but the autonomous churches have some leeway (e.g. in most autonomous churches that the Catholic Church is composed of, Priests can be married if they got married before getting invested as Priest.). Still, it's strictly hierarchically organized with an Institution on top that can decide on doctrinal matters for all member churches. The latter has never really been the case with the Eastern Orthodox churches, though the byzantine Emperor claimed such a position for a time (though did never manage to extend his influence on all Eastern Orthodox churches). That's also not how it is with the Empire, as not the Emperor, but the TC has the last word about changing doctrine.
The Theology Council is not merly a symbolic figurehead - nor is the Emperor - but has real powers in all churches of the Amarr Empire (save maybe the Khanid church, which really doesn't seem to have much of an organization, and is more in the Hand of holders than trained priests - it's an exception to the rule in many ways). All proper member churches are bound by TC rulings. This is not at all the Situation of orthodoxy where each Patriarch can decide on doctrinal matters as he sees fit in his see. The more centralized catholic hierarchy is a better model of how the Amarr Religion works.
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I think any Caldari true-believers would face a rough road maintaining their employment and social networks in the State.
The official attitude might tolerate a variety of beliefs, but you better believe no one at the office or the assembly line wants to hear one iota about it.
"Stop making waves with this nonsense, get back to work"
"This new affiliation has become a distraction to those around you. You post one more pamphlet in the break room and you are fired, understood?"
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What Silas said. To repeat, the Caldari megacorps are fanatical about preserving exactly one Caldari culture. To step outside of the Caldari cultural mainstream and adopt a new religion would be career and social suicide. Probably quite literally, as in Tea ceremony suicide.
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What Silas said. To repeat, the Caldari megacorps are fanatical about preserving exactly one Caldari culture. To step outside of the Caldari cultural mainstream and adopt a new religion would be career and social suicide. Probably quite literally, as in Tea ceremony suicide.
8 Caldari Cultures...
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I disagree, as long as it remains private and the guy does not make a fuss about it, and sufficient conditions are gathered around.
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I know about These things, but it really is more like the Catholic Church, which - as is apparently a Little klnown fact - is made up of 23 autonomous particular churches. Most doctrines are the same, but the autonomous churches have some leeway (e.g. in most autonomous churches that the Catholic Church is composed of, Priests can be married if they got married before getting invested as Priest.). Still, it's strictly hierarchically organized with an Institution on top that can decide on doctrinal matters for all member churches. The latter has never really been the case with the Eastern Orthodox churches, though the byzantine Emperor claimed such a position for a time (though did never manage to extend his influence on all Eastern Orthodox churches). That's also not how it is with the Empire, as not the Emperor, but the TC has the last word about changing doctrine.
The Theology Council is not merly a symbolic figurehead - nor is the Emperor - but has real powers in all churches of the Amarr Empire (save maybe the Khanid church, which really doesn't seem to have much of an organization, and is more in the Hand of holders than trained priests - it's an exception to the rule in many ways). All proper member churches are bound by TC rulings. This is not at all the Situation of orthodoxy where each Patriarch can decide on doctrinal matters as he sees fit in his see. The more centralized catholic hierarchy is a better model of how the Amarr Religion works.
I know that too, I am actually teaching a class on Christianity in the Middle East this term, where many of those groups are located, and that is why I am saying that the Amarr religion is more like orthodoxy when we look at the big picture, i. e. including Khanid and Ammatar. If you only look at the Empire only, then of course the resemblance to a more hierarchical structure with the final say on doctrinal matters becomes stronger. In short: The Amarr emperor is somewhat similar to the Byzantine emperor, while the Khanid are the Georgians sitting somewhere in the mountains. What they have in common are the first x councils and all that happened to a certain point in there history.
But regardless in which direction we argue, I think it depends on the angle from which we look at it, and since you are always eager to point out that Amarr =/= Space Catholics, it doesn't really matter what we think they resemble most.
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What Silas said. To repeat, the Caldari megacorps are fanatical about preserving exactly one Caldari culture. To step outside of the Caldari cultural mainstream and adopt a new religion would be career and social suicide. Probably quite literally, as in Tea ceremony suicide.
8 Caldari Cultures...
PF disagrees.
Exact wording from Caldari Demographics:
The corporations emphasize this in their enculturation process, enforcing a single Caldari culture and identity for the purposes of unity and cohesion
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I disagree, as long as it remains private and the guy does not make a fuss about it, and sufficient conditions are gathered around.
Its stated that
"they are extremely intolerant of individuals practicing non-Caldari customs in the State, commonly foreigners and expatriates"
Im not sure a fair reading of "extremely intolerant" is "so long as its private, no one cares".
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I think there are shades of grey when it comes to how far the State will enforce the Caldari culture. Speaking as someone who has stayed in Caldari roleplay circles most of my time in EVE, I can safely state that while there is indeed a single overarching Caldari culture - the Eight Megas each have their own distinct flavor of that culture.
I'm not sure how much you've roleplayed Caldari, but I've seen very few of us assume the Caldari State is a monolithic unilateral code of culture that is agreed upon on the same level by everybody. Megacorporate differences are sharp and very strongly defined. I would caution you against using the most literal interpretation of PF to the detriment of realism. Something as large as the Caldari State with many hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of citizens cannot be completely unified under a single monoculture without being an Orwellian Police State which it is most certainly NOT.
That said, your use of that particular line of PF against the concept of a public preacher is sound and reasonable. The State may or may not tolerate that sort of behavior, but I stress again that there are significant differences based on location, jurisdiction, megacorporate affiliation, distance from the 'mainland State', and other concepts. Baracca would probably be in trouble if he's on a soap box on the streets of New Caldari Prime. He would have a much easier time preaching at a recreational facility in Black Rise or low-sec Lonetrek. He will not be in trouble at all if he's got his own little chapel on one of our stations within Imperial borders.
The fact is that religion is NOT enforced in the State, and that means there will be enclaves of Amarrian Monotheism in the State. Baracca already has an audience. The State is not as knee-jerk hostile to Amarr Faith as the Minmatar, though we are also not as openly accepting as the Federation. It's somewhere in-between.
There are always differences, and painting an entire faction with one single color is almost always a poorly considered choice. It may be the intention to unify the culutre. It may even be law. It may even be law across all eight megas. Even if all that is true, it probably still isn't actually completely unified.
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Im not stating that other way of playing the Caldari might not be more realistic, or even more enjoyable to play. Im just stating where PF stands on this.
Im trying to "paint" the whole of Caldari with one brush because throughout PF Caldari it states that they try, very very hard, to have one united culture. So Im merely trying to follow the PF in this regard. Of course theyre not completely 100% similar. But they certainly try, and seem to succeed more than anything in "real life" today. Even if there are other variations on Caldari culture, which of course minor deviations exist, "tolerance of foreign views" would be a complete 180 from the way its written and presented.
And of course religion is enforced in the State, because a unified Caldari culture is enforced, and religion or lack thereof plays an important part of any culture. The only way the State wouldnt enforce religious views of its citizens is if you argue that religion isnt any part of what people consider "culture", which strains the basic understanding of the word. Caldari have their own religious beliefs. Changing those beliefs would, if they have any relevance at all, change Caldari culture and traditions. Thus, religious beliefs would certainly be monitored and enforced, they would have to be if you want to maintain cultural stability. To say that they heavily and methodically enforce cultural purity in their citizens but allow those same citizens to practice whatever religion floats their boat is an illogical and unrealistic position to me.
Again, thats not "one line", thats numerous PF lines that I can point to. And to be blunt, a couple lines of PF trumps no lines of PF.
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As to the byzantine church hierarchy and Administration working so differently from the Roman catholic: I still maintain that this isn't the case, especially fot the middle ages: It's not as if emperors haven't had influence on the Pope and for a time it was even the byzantine emperor who placed the Bishops of Rome on their thrones. Basically both have the same ranks, from deacon over priest to bishop and they have the same Basic functions to fulfill. This isn't so surprising, given that until the Great Schism (1054) Eastern and Western Christianity were considering themselves a single church.
By declaring them to be so similar you are eliding a rather massive set of differences. Issues like who appoints the bishops are not the same on both sides of the Mediterranean. Heck, the bishops job is not a stable thing. Also, its notable that Archbishops and Metropolitan bishops aren't exactly the same things in the middle ages. This doesn't even begin to get into concepts like Cardinals. The people who fill the bishops spots aren't the same across the Mediterranean. Heck, they aren't the same from one region within orthodoxy to another or one region within catholicism to another. Buying the propoganda of both that they were ever "one church" is a massive mistake.
I don't think a Christian model is a good one for Amarr. Period. As said before, Amarr has no theology of the religion being separate from the state. This changes far too much. The catholic, and to a lesser extent orthodox, models both have major problems dealing with that. We need to abandon them. We can keep the titles and several particular elements, but the actual models do not work.
Also, Amarrian religion is ethnic. Just look at the scriptures. It is about the chosen. Those Khanid and Udorian nobles are marked as inferior because of the tiny percentage of their ancestry that is not True Amarr. If they are noble, they are almost certainly marrying into true Amarr families almost immediately, and I find it unlikely that there are many pure Khanid or pure Udorian holders anywhere in the Empire. Its likely that the definition of who the True Amarr are is a slowly expanding one, hence Udorians being incorporated into it at this point, but that doesn't make it a non-ethnic religion. Its not like ethnicities are static.
This idea just doesn't exist in a christian model. I think a Sasanian model or even an Islamic model works somewhat better, but only somewhat. Best is to throw out the models and make new ones.
One of the biggest things that needs to go is the word religion. Amarr doesn't have religion, it just has being Amarr, which incorporates what we call religion. Religion as we think about it now is a Christian (and particularly protestant) patterned concept, and it just doesn't apply well to cultures that don't separate between religion and not. A better model is the one we find in the ancient world, where there is a word for theology and belief and a different word for practice and the rules you follow. I think that in Amarr practice is going to trump belief, doing things by the rules that you are supposed to follow seems to be more important than what you believe.
To get back to bishops, the model of administration I see is that the church grows based on its conquests and populations. I would expect Bishops and Archbishops to be directly connected to the holdings of holders. I would expect individual holders to be directly connected to the process of chosing their top bishops. Where there is no holding there probably no bishop. I have seen no evidence that the TC is responsible for this selection process.
A noble would presumably also be the source of funding for a missionary. It seems unlikely to me that the people converted by the missionary would be considered an entity that could have a bishop, however.
The goal of converting Gallente or Matari would not, after all, be to have them leave Gallente or Matari space to come to Amarr. The Goal would be to convince them to help overthrow the Gallente or Matari governments and take everything to Amarr. There is no incentive for the Amarr to tell their new fifth column that they can be fully functioning members of the Amarr religion, rather it would be much more effective to say that they can only fully join the religion when they destroy their current overlords. Maybe offer a sins forgiven to those who die trying clause.
The reason I am skeptical that there would be many Amarrian missionaries among lower class or outcaste caldari is that those missionaries would jeopardize the much bigger goal of convincing the megacorps as they are that they should be incorporated into Amarr. Khanid style integration has got to be the target that Amarr is using to talk to the Caldari, it makes no sense for the Amarr to piss the Caldari off by organizing subversive movements. The payoff comes if they can convince one or more of the megacorps that it is in their interest to merge Caldari social structure into the overall scheme of Amarr.
If there are missionaries to the lower class populations, I would expect that they would be deniable. IE they would be unlikely to be official bishop types and more likely to be crazy ascetic types.
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Im just stating where PF stands on this.
No, you're stating where you think PF stands on this. It's your interpretation, and it seems quite different from mine and others in this thread. I apologize, but your interpretation is not the final law on it any more than mine or Vic's is.
And of course religion is enforced in the State, because a unified Caldari culture is enforced, and religion or lack thereof plays an important part of any culture. The only way the State wouldnt enforce religious views of its citizens is if you argue that religion isnt any part of what people consider "culture", which strains the basic understanding of the word. Caldari have their own religious beliefs. Changing those beliefs would, if they have any relevance at all, change Caldari culture and traditions. Thus, religious beliefs would certainly be monitored and enforced, they would have to be if you want to maintain cultural stability. To say that they heavily and methodically enforce cultural purity in their citizens but allow those same citizens to practice whatever religion floats their boat is an illogical and unrealistic position to me.
Not quite.
Wayism is not an evangelical religion, and most Caldari take it as simply a fact of the universe, not a truth to be spread. The general attitude of most Caldari to nonbelievers is that it is their right to believe in whatever god or gods they like, as Wayism is very much centered on the Caldari people themselves anyway. The Achura, and to a lesser extent the Intaki, are considered to have a different understanding of the same realities, which is one of the reasons that the Caldari were eager to incorporate both into the State. Atheist Caldari are not uncommon, and not treated with any particular scorn, though many go through the motions of Wayism purely out of cultural tradition rather than any real belief.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_spirituality#Temples_and_Clergy
Religion is not enforced. I do not consider what you quoted to run counter to what I quoted, and I certainly do not consider what you quoted to say religion is enforced. The fact is that we're both extrapolating from PF, and it doesn't state one way or another whether Baracca can or cannot preach in State territory. I think this discussion is largely academic because of that. In the end, Vic is world-building in an area of PF that is full of uncertainty, which is the entire reason we have almost ten pages of full blooded debate over it.
If it was a clear cut case of "PF says no", this discussion would be moot. I don't think that's the case. I think there is wiggle room here, and I think he's well within it - though it might be a bit too snug in there.
At this point I'm just going to extend an olive branch to Baracca, and attempt to extract myself from the debate. Vic, if you want, you can say he is preaching in Ishukone areas (Syndicate Ishukone Station, maybe?), and we'll back you up on it.
EDIT: Removed flamebait material.
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I disagree, as long as it remains private and the guy does not make a fuss about it, and sufficient conditions are gathered around.
Its stated that
"they are extremely intolerant of individuals practicing non-Caldari customs in the State, commonly foreigners and expatriates"
Im not sure a fair reading of "extremely intolerant" is "so long as its private, no one cares".
Not what I said.
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Also, Amarrian religion is ethnic. Just look at the scriptures. It is about the chosen. Those Khanid and Udorian nobles are marked as inferior because of the tiny percentage of their ancestry that is not True Amarr. If they are noble, they are almost certainly marrying into true Amarr families almost immediately, and I find it unlikely that there are many pure Khanid or pure Udorian holders anywhere in the Empire. Its likely that the definition of who the True Amarr are is a slowly expanding one, hence Udorians being incorporated into it at this point, but that doesn't make it a non-ethnic religion. Its not like ethnicities are static.
As we've talked about the other things directly and come to agreement, I'd like to contend this view: Amarr started out as a ethnic 'religion', but I think there has been a Change to an ethic, rather than ethnic Religion. The Scripture Points at this, I think, quite obviously when Amarr are selected not by ethnical or racial properties, but by ethical ones. Amarr is who lives righteously and in fear of God. I'd agree that there are still vestiges of ethnical motives there, though.
One of the biggest things that needs to go is the word religion. Amarr doesn't have religion, it just has being Amarr, which incorporates what we call religion. Religion as we think about it now is a Christian (and particularly protestant) patterned concept, and it just doesn't apply well to cultures that don't separate between religion and not. A better model is the one we find in the ancient world, where there is a word for theology and belief and a different word for practice and the rules you follow. I think that in Amarr practice is going to trump belief, doing things by the rules that you are supposed to follow seems to be more important than what you believe.
While I agree that there's a Problem with applying 'religion' as a term to anything but the Abrahamic religions, i think it's not entirely useless or besides the point. I agree that orthopraxy does trump orthodoxy in a sense in Amarr: Orthodox positions aren't required from the usual citizen and practitioner. On the other Hand, what is considered orthopractic is certainly informed by a doxology of Amarr and it is within this that an orthodoxy will be established. Clerics, in general, will have to play by the doxastic rules of the TC.
To get back to bishops, the model of administration I see is that the church grows based on its conquests and populations. I would expect Bishops and Archbishops to be directly connected to the holdings of holders. I would expect individual holders to be directly connected to the process of chosing their top bishops. Where there is no holding there probably no bishop. I have seen no evidence that the TC is responsible for this selection process.
I think it's a mixture: Holders can bring their own clerics to their Domains. Still, some other clerics might be traditionally established there, at least that's what the PF suggests imho in the case of the Ammatar church. Though Ardishapur could promote the orthodox church of Amarr, he couldn't simply eject the Ammatar church, it seems.
A noble would presumably also be the source of funding for a missionary. It seems unlikely to me that the people converted by the missionary would be considered an entity that could have a bishop, however.
I think we have good reason to assume that it's mainly Holders that fund a missionary. (Ardishapur seems to do that.) Still, I think there might be cases where churches within Amarr do this as well. Clerics can be quite influential and probably rich in Amarr it seems. So, one could imagine them sending out missionaries on their own. How a missionary would fit in the ecclesiastical hierarchy is up to debate, imho. I don't see strong arguments for wither position.
The goal of converting Gallente or Matari would not, after all, be to have them leave Gallente or Matari space to come to Amarr. The Goal would be to convince them to help overthrow the Gallente or Matari governments and take everything to Amarr. There is no incentive for the Amarr to tell their new fifth column that they can be fully functioning members of the Amarr religion, rather it would be much more effective to say that they can only fully join the religion when they destroy their current overlords. Maybe offer a sins forgiven to those who die trying clause.
I think that the Amarr can be quite subtle, there. The Khanid were won over without a civil war by converting them all, apparently, with some exceptions. In the end, though, full Integration in the Empire would be the Goal, I agree.
The reason I am skeptical that there would be many Amarrian missionaries among lower class or outcaste caldari is that those missionaries would jeopardize the much bigger goal of convincing the megacorps as they are that they should be incorporated into Amarr. Khanid style integration has got to be the target that Amarr is using to talk to the Caldari, it makes no sense for the Amarr to piss the Caldari off by organizing subversive movements. The payoff comes if they can convince one or more of the megacorps that it is in their interest to merge Caldari social structure into the overall scheme of Amarr.
If there are missionaries to the lower class populations, I would expect that they would be deniable. IE they would be unlikely to be official bishop types and more likely to be crazy ascetic types.
With this I agree entirely.
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What Silas said. To repeat, the Caldari megacorps are fanatical about preserving exactly one Caldari culture. To step outside of the Caldari cultural mainstream and adopt a new religion would be career and social suicide. Probably quite literally, as in Tea ceremony suicide.
8 Caldari Cultures...
PF disagrees.
Exact wording from Caldari Demographics:
The corporations emphasize this in their enculturation process, enforcing a single Caldari culture and identity for the purposes of unity and cohesion
I can use the same sentence to argue that the corporations all have different encultuation processes and therefore fail to create a single Caldari culture, but at least 8 different cultures that bear some core semblance to each other.
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I think Kat's point about culture vs. vaguely different flavours of that same culture is well made.
I liken it to China, which likes to present itself to the rest of the world as a homogenous mass of 1.5 billion people against the world but on closer examination has one dominant population with its own culture and many other minority ethnic populations each with their own small influences on the greater national character. After spending a little time in that country, I figured out that China's just as diverse as most other places around the world - they just keep their internal differences as quiet as possible.
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Having drunk from the cup of tiger's blood the last week (cocaine is a hell of a drug) I'll drop some of the affectations.
But if you find that silly, I'm not really certain what to say. I mean... If I might be a little frank, are you sure you actually like MMO roleplaying, such as it is? Do you enjoy the community? Are you having fun, here?
I would not describe myself as a roleplayer, no. The entire concept behind writing what Veik wrote was to take a jab at the concept of mutual validation I see as inherent with roleplayers, and in fact it would have not been written, if in the first since what was initially attacked was the validation process as regards Odelya and Constantin. Yet, they are not unique to me in any way, they are simply symptomatic of roleplayers in general.
I can see it coming out also with the following thoughts here:
There is no way to substantiate that “Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is the Secure Commerce Commission registered conglomerate of subsidiary private military corporations acting in the interests of Kaalakiota. Wiyrkomi and Lai Dai Corporations” etc. etc. But what is the basis of rp then?
So what are we going to make out of this? Shall we start a game like this:
“You are not a duchess/subsidary of Lai Dai, because you can’t prove it”
“Look it up in the book of records/at the secure commerce commission”
“I did, but I didn’t find you”
“You took the wrong book of records/secure commerce commission”
“No, I didn’t, you are a lier!”
“No, you are, you are!”
As a consequence I think Veikitamo Gesakaarin’s posting is little different from what she is criticising, it is basically doing the same, but on a meta level. The big difference however is that those “unsubstantiated claims” are enriching our rp and stories, while the critique is basically destroying the foundations of it.
I have nothing against a bashing of Odelya—but please in way Nicoletta, Rodj and Anabella did it.
Actually I rather like it. It is good to see that some RP organizations continue to be acknowledged by CCP in some way for what they do, like PIE, PYRE, I-RED, CVA, EM, UK, etc.
What seems to have been fundamentally misunderstood here is that I don't play this game for the validation of others. I'm not some easy lay at a dive bar that needs to be told how great my tits are before getting propositioned with, "Hey babe, are you DTF?" I don't play for the recognition game that appears to drive so many roleplayers, I didn't ask CCP for a gold star written in yellow text, nor do I need the approval of others to do what I wish in Eve.
How I immerse myself in the world I have been given is to utilize rationalization, contextualization, and perspective which can be seen simply in the Pyre Falcon info:
It's an in-game corporation, what is an in-game corporation? Well, I guess it's a corporation that operates under CONCORD jurisdiction which taken further is probably the SCC because they manage all this economic shit, so they'd probably handle matters of incorporation and securities for freelance capsuleers.
Well it's an alliance. What is a corporate alliance? Well it could also be a corporate conglomerate, hence why it's defined as a, "Combine".
Well what does it do? Well it works in the -interests- of Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, and Lai Dai. Since it is in effect independent and SCC registered this is represented at a base level by it doing mission work for those corps in-game, framing its actions in that context, and simply put it doesn't mean explaining shit to anyone because at the end of the day as a deniable asset company having a non-concrete, nebulous relationship makes sense.
So no, I'm not interested in playing the roleplay game of just making whatever shit up I want, then getting into mind-numbing discussion trying to justify it to other roleplayers so they can validate the existence of my little imaginary sandcastles I've created for myself. This just leads, in my view, to the rather hilarious circumstance of roleplay essentially becoming the most mediocre of popularity contests that drives people forever in the search of others to validate and endorse their crap.
Why would I want to participate in that? If I wanted to play the game roleplayers seem to be playing I'd:
- Go play a tabletop RP
- Go play the Sims2 for all the faux relationship stuff
- Go play Second Life
But I'm playing Eve, so how I immerse myself in the world is by first and foremost valuing its interactions and ability to affect the world through in-game action. This differs in my mind to what roleplayers seem to do in which the focus is on changing the world through writing about it -- yet if everyone just ignored what was written by roleplayers (which most do) nothing really actually changes does it? In effect it's a system of rather hilarious delusions, which is how my own characters treats what most roleplayers do -- a bunch of apparently delusional capsuleers taking each others claims seriously to hilarious effect. I mean damn, most roleplayers' come off as the type who'd probably take the National Enquirer or any other tabloid press seriously and think Bigfoot is going to molest them the way my own character sees it from an in-game perspective.
Also, I'd say roleplayers and their characters actually add to my own sense of immersion. After all, it's hardly realistic to me to have a world where there doesn't exist people who are always seeking the validation and approval of others: whether out of a need for fame, popularity, recognition or just good old vanity now is it?
Oddly this is the most mind-blowing/disruptive piece of PF for me ever. I don't hate it... it just really changes my view of the EVEverse.
What do you think it means if CCP says that barely any capsuleers ever choose to interact with baseliners, and I would say 80% of RP'ers RP as at least intermittently doing so? Are the members of the Summit unusually sociable? Particularly sane?
It has been a long-running pseudo-joke that this is the case, yes. Your average (non-RPing) player is typically portrayed or referred to in a similar fashion to the 'villain' capsuleer from the Burning Life - being a capsuleer is little more than a game to them.
Effectively, roleplayers (in the sense that we consider ourselves roleplayers and the average EVE player not a roleplayer) are as much a minority in the playerbase as the characters we usually portray are among the population of 'unbound' capsuleers (ie, player characters).
Well, we have a winner as to just how I'm "roleplaying" the capsuleer known as Veikitamo Gesakaarin.
No no no. You're doing it wrong.
You roll 1d6 to determine if you get to light it or not. The 1d20 is for how much of the ten-minute cycle you last before getting blapped.
Then you roll an additional 2d20 to see how many ships come through the cyno. If you get two ones, your titan jumps instead of bridging.
*A wild Morlag appears in the forest
*Refers to character sheet
*Selects and casts "Power Word: Orgasm"
*Rolls d20. 20! Critical success.
*Wild Morlag is incapacitated for 1d4+1 hours due to overwhelming sense of pleasure.
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Having drunk from the cup of tiger's blood the last week (cocaine is a hell of a drug) I'll drop some of the affectations.
etc.
If you don’t want to play the approval game, then why do you put your views on roleplay into an in-character perspective? Denying the claims of others, how well the may be grounded and executed, leads to the paradox of only adding flavour to their claims. And making such a posting on IGS is no less part of the approval game. As I said what you are doing is little different from what you are criticising, but you don’t seem to see the paradox.
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One of the biggest things that needs to go is the word religion. Amarr doesn't have religion, it just has being Amarr, which incorporates what we call religion.
(emphasis mine)
I don't study this stuff well enough to sit and make cohesive arguments. I can't irradiate them in a petri dish I'm pretty much done with arguments.
But bolded section is pretty much what I was trying to say when I had to eventually turn the blink off on the OOC channel the other day. :P
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There's a reason I summed up that hour-long argument with ":amarrians:", Ari. ;)
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Well as it is still going on it lends credence to the often used statement "The Empire moves slowly".
As for Veik's post and point, Veik can write what they choose, "poking at the fourth wall", because :Eve:. A moderator from CCP can be referred to the post, and they will read it as in character, and state it violates nothing.
In truth, everything every capsuleer in EVE does is in character; this is why MECHANICS = CANON gets inscribed everywhere. When it comes to the generation of histories and little worlds - whether they matter or not, whether they're validated or not, well, welcome to a world of not 100 people, but 100,000 people who play EVE and have to decide if it is worth paying attention to.
What's more dangerous, that character A is a this or that and can bend the ear of people who may or may not be officially aligned with Theology Council and/or Megacorps or the Tribal Councils or that - whatever it is the Gallente have - the friggin hippies :D, this excluding you from IC interactions (no tea parties for you :/) but everyone still has 'no issues' with you OOC...
... or that character B can command a fleet/alliance that can wardec you / force you into an eternal state of 'docked' - also has no issues with you, mind you, nothing against you in real life - but your boat shall indeed be Violenced?
As much as I like to RP, I would have a hard time choosing who it was more important to be nice to, and likely would choose the latter when I think about losing spaceships that, in essence, cost about fourty USD apiece.
Point being - the 'biggest threat' one person chooses based on how they play the game. I do like to undock, so, a powerful alliance/corporation being hostile is as powerful if not moreso than, say, Pieter deciding he wants to snap Ari's neck in an RPfite.
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Having drunk from the cup of tiger's blood the last week (cocaine is a hell of a drug) I'll drop some of the affectations.
etc.
If you don’t want to play the approval game, then why do you put your views on roleplay into an in-character perspective? Denying the claims of others, how well the may be grounded and executed, leads to the paradox of only adding flavour to their claims. And making such a posting on IGS is no less part of the approval game. As I said what you are doing is little different from what you are criticising, but you don’t seem to see the paradox.
There is only a paradox if you believe either myself or my character are interested in changing what exists, no?
Or it can be seen as a self-conscious recognition of humouring others.
Or maybe the fact that it's all just so recursive is part of the fun?
At the end of the day though, the majority of RP to me both as a player and a character is relatively unimportant because I'm interacting in game world where what you do is more important than what you say you do. RP/IC is just a form of interaction to me, but it's only one of many available and will always remain a minor one in the whole game I'm playing.
Once it became apparent that the whole thing appears to be more about validation and popularity, then my own personal interest in it becomes increasingly diminished, especially as I've realized that there's just as many people to meet who enjoy the lore, the background and immersion outside this small minority of Eve than there are in it.
Sure I've met a lot of interesting people within this, "community" -- yet for some reason those same people no longer seem interested in engaging with or interacting with it aside from the most minimal level now.
Maybe there's a reason for that.
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Well as it is still going on it lends credence to the often used statement "The Empire moves slowly".
As for Veik's post and point, Veik can write what they choose, "poking at the fourth wall", because :Eve:. A moderator from CCP can be referred to the post, and they will read it as in character, and state it violates nothing.
In truth, everything every capsuleer in EVE does is in character; this is why MECHANICS = CANON gets inscribed everywhere. When it comes to the generation of histories and little worlds - whether they matter or not, whether they're validated or not, well, welcome to a world of not 100 people, but 100,000 people who play EVE and have to decide if it is worth paying attention to.
What's more dangerous, that character A is a this or that and can bend the ear of people who may or may not be officially aligned with Theology Council and/or Megacorps or the Tribal Councils or that - whatever it is the Gallente have - the friggin hippies :D, this excluding you from IC interactions (no tea parties for you :/) but everyone still has 'no issues' with you OOC...
... or that character B can command a fleet/alliance that can wardec you / force you into an eternal state of 'docked' - also has no issues with you, mind you, nothing against you in real life - but your boat shall indeed be Violenced?
As much as I like to RP, I would have a hard time choosing who it was more important to be nice to, and likely would choose the latter when I think about losing spaceships that, in essence, cost about fourty USD apiece.
Point being - the 'biggest threat' one person chooses based on how they play the game. I do like to undock, so, a powerful alliance/corporation being hostile is as powerful if not moreso than, say, Pieter deciding he wants to snap Ari's neck in an RPfite.
Mechanics = Canon is a can of worms too.
In both cases it's just a matter of being reasonable, but apparently people simply fail at it.
Having drunk from the cup of tiger's blood the last week (cocaine is a hell of a drug) I'll drop some of the affectations.
etc.
If you don’t want to play the approval game, then why do you put your views on roleplay into an in-character perspective? Denying the claims of others, how well the may be grounded and executed, leads to the paradox of only adding flavour to their claims. And making such a posting on IGS is no less part of the approval game. As I said what you are doing is little different from what you are criticising, but you don’t seem to see the paradox.
There is only a paradox if you believe either myself or my character are interested in changing what exists, no?
Or it can be seen as a self-conscious recognition of humouring others.
Or maybe the fact that it's all just so recursive is part of the fun?
At the end of the day though, the majority of RP to me both as a player and a character is relatively unimportant because I'm interacting in game world where what you do is more important than what you say you do. RP/IC is just a form of interaction to me, but it's only one of many available and will always remain a minor one in the whole game I'm playing.
Once it became apparent that the whole thing appears to be more about validation and popularity, then my own personal interest in it becomes increasingly diminished, especially as I've realized that there's just as many people to meet who enjoy the lore, the background and immersion outside this small minority of Eve than there are in it.
Sure I've met a lot of interesting people within this, "community" -- yet for some reason those same people no longer seem interested in engaging with or interacting with it aside from the most minimal level now.
Maybe there's a reason for that.
You seem to assume that we are interested in and play for recognition, validation and popularity. It find it rather sad and offending since you don't actually know for what I play. I do not play for that, I play for the interest we can find in evolved RP setups, interesting situations, well made dramas, everything that can emulate a rich atmosphere fitting to the universe. RP is a matter of immersion, and one has to create his own tools for that. If you can immerse yourself in your game mechanics, that's good for you. I personally find them anti immersive like nothing.
But telling me it's for a petty recognition ? Please. Considering my own history on that game over 7 years, it's just ludicrous.
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But telling me it's for a petty recognition ? Please. Considering my own history on that game over 7 years, it's just ludicrous.
That's just my own opinion given observation. Would I say it applies to all? No, not at all.
Because as I already have said, I wouldn't have met interesting people around here if that were the case.
But would I say a lot of signal gets lost in white noise? Sure.
I just need to open OOC to feel like I'm at SETI trying to look for a coherent and intelligent signal among a cosmic background of pedantry.
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Right - this is a case of people being unreasonable.
If something doesnt apply to someone they should not be offended either.
If someone called me a fatass, I'd not care, because it isn't true.
So why are people getting offended of these things were neither directed at them, and do not apply to them?
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Veik - looking at your thoughts about validation and such, I kind of have to ask... isn't that basically what you were doing with the whole PYRE-is-sending-slaves-to-the-Kingdom thing? I mean, there wasn't any conclusive way to prove by mechanics what PYRE was doing, whether they were POWs or slaves, how they were being treated, etc...
Seems to me you were pretty much asking people to accept that things were as you presented them?
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I think PYRE sending slaves to the Kingdom agrees with all the PF though, based on the Kingdoms need for outside slave sources and their relationship with many Caldari corporations?
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Agreeing with PF or not isn't really what's being discussed here; the question is about the creation of claims and their automatic acceptance by the remainder of the RP community.
i.e., nobody said "You're sending slaves? PROVE IT, SHOW ME THE FACILITIES, FINANCIAL RECORDS, TRANSPORT CARGO SCANS," etc.
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Veik - looking at your thoughts about validation and such, I kind of have to ask... isn't that basically what you were doing with the whole PYRE-is-sending-slaves-to-the-Kingdom thing? I mean, there wasn't any conclusive way to prove by mechanics what PYRE was doing, whether they were POWs or slaves, how they were being treated, etc...
Seems to me you were pretty much asking people to accept that things were as you presented them?
There were ways, through other, outside parties that were involved. To my knowledge, two different capsuleers/corps offered land to host the facilities - unfortunately I don't think things progressed to the point with either where anything would have come from it in that sense.
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Veik - looking at your thoughts about validation and such, I kind of have to ask... isn't that basically what you were doing with the whole PYRE-is-sending-slaves-to-the-Kingdom thing? I mean, there wasn't any conclusive way to prove by mechanics what PYRE was doing, whether they were POWs or slaves, how they were being treated, etc...
Seems to me you were pretty much asking people to accept that things were as you presented them?
There were ways, through other, outside parties that were involved. To my knowledge, two different capsuleers/corps offered land to host the facilities - unfortunately I don't think things progressed to the point with either where anything would have come from it in that sense.
Right. I'm talking about purely what -did- happen, not what might have happened.
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So why are people getting offended of these things were neither directed at them, and do not apply to them?
Why is the backstage RP community targeted then ? That's silly.
Because everything that is pointed at in Veik thread is basically everything what I do, and what a lot of people do here. Starting with things like Mantenault.
How is that not directed at us ?
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I think I may have found Veiki summed up in a post on imgur. Behold!
(http://i.imgur.com/6mErngN.jpg)
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So why are people getting offended of these things were neither directed at them, and do not apply to them?
Why is the backstage RP community targeted then ? That's silly.
Because everything that is pointed at in Veik thread is basically everything what I do, and what a lot of people do here. Starting with things like Mantenault.
How is that not directed at us ?
I'd refer to how this thread started, not how it has progressed now that everyone has stated their feelings on the matter, giving the person in question time to read through all of it.
And note: If you are not doing this as a popularity contest, then why is that the point that made you state "I am offended"?
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And note: If you are not doing this as a popularity contest, then why is that the point that made you state "I am offended"?
Because according to Veik everything that isn't supported by "game mechanics" involves vanity poisoned sand castle building contests aimed at other people to make them tell you that your tits are big. And this is not the case.
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...seriously. It's a game. If you like basing cred off mechanics, go for it. If you like making fluff for people to use and have fun (like my NEIH project), go for it. You don't need to shit on people's parades.
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Veik makin' friends xD
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No one can hurt your feelings without your permission.
Just as Veik can ignore your "sandcastles", you can ignore any kicking of them, because in essence:
a)They do not exist via game mechanics, and can only be inferred via PF, and are not canonized more than a general assumption of 'possibility'. We do not write canon. We create fiction that can fit within it.
a1) the sandcastles in question can not be effected by game mechanics, which is Veik's professed playstyle.
Therefore, something someone doesn't believe exists can't rightfully be kicked over.
And as Anslo pointed out, it's a damned game.
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Because according to Veik everything that isn't supported by "game mechanics" involves vanity poisoned sand castle building contests aimed at other people to make them tell you that your tits are big. And this is not the case.
As far as I understand Veik, Veik does not worry about sand castles. Not enough to discuss them for eleven pages, in any case. It's far more productive to Veik to find an Achuran schoolgirl, snort a few lines of Crash off the handsbreath of bare skin between the top of her stockings and the hem of her miniskirt. And use the ensuing reduction in missile explosion radius to WIN!1. Top Gun theme. Curtains close. Tomorrow we do it all over again, but harder, faster, and better.
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No one can hurt your feelings without your permission.
Tell that my ex-girlfriend :yar:
And as Anslo pointed out, it's a damned game.
You know, when I am playing Monopoly with friends, I ought to take it fucking serious. Because if I wouldn’t why should I bother to play? We play games for various reasons, to relax, to immerse, to excite ourself—to name only a few of them. But whenever the point is reached that someone says “it’s only a game”, I feel slightly uncomfortable. Why? I know that it is only a game. And when it is over I don’t give a fuck. But doesn’t this level of reflection ultimately does all my joy away while I am doing it? Doesn’t it just break the wall and throws me back to the reality I escaped while I was triumphantly waiting for this or that player to land on my Monopoly hotels? That said: Hell yeah, you’re right, it is a bloody game! Just let’s forget that it is “just a game” and enjoy ourselves! ;)
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*flips the board, kisses Odie full on the mouth, Scope takes pictures*
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.....well that escalated quickly.
/me snap shots regardless and sends off to Scope.
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*flips the board, kisses Odie full on the mouth, Scope takes pictures*
Any time you want! :eek: :P
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YES. NOW WITH MORE PASSION!
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All of this is likely my own RL annoyances (nothing to do with in game) leaking into what I am writing. I feel 'too casual' for, as was pointed out, ten plus pages of discussion (which to be fair a few of them drifted to Amarrian religion, as threads do, they drift).
Its just that as I watch this, the non-RPing lowsec pirate in me starts pointing at the tear-harvesters in the midslots and gesturing wildly, because this is, ultimately, EVE Online, and this RP community is, ultimately, a tiny clique within it. When I see people getting this upset about this sort of thing I worry on a personal level as to how deep of an escape this "Monopoly Game" is.
Anyone who's watched The Guild webisodes has seen the 'stereotypical' gamers, highlighted harshly yet humorously, but remove the humor and you have a choice to either get genuinely worried about those people as people, or want to back away from them.
I'd rather not want to back away from anyone here, and would hope that something is being lost in text translation and for God's sake, on all sides, no one is taking any of this as seriously as it is coming across, and we're all posting pages and pages of explanatory pamphlets out of "I'm trapped at work and bored".
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No one can hurt your feelings without your permission.
Just as Veik can ignore your "sandcastles", you can ignore any kicking of them, because in essence:
a)They do not exist via game mechanics, and can only be inferred via PF, and are not canonized more than a general assumption of 'possibility'. We do not write canon. We create fiction that can fit within it.
a1) the sandcastles in question can not be effected by game mechanics, which is Veik's professed playstyle.
Therefore, something someone doesn't believe exists can't rightfully be kicked over.
And as Anslo pointed out, it's a damned game.
As far as I understand Veik, Veik does not worry about sand castles. Not enough to discuss them for eleven pages, in any case. It's far more productive to Veik to find an Achuran schoolgirl, snort a few lines of Crash off the handsbreath of bare skin between the top of her stockings and the hem of her miniskirt. And use the ensuing reduction in missile explosion radius to WIN!1. Top Gun theme. Curtains close. Tomorrow we do it all over again, but harder, faster, and better.
This basically, what's the big deal here?
At the end of the day I play Eve, an internet spaceship game about blowing up spaceships... by blowing up spaceships. If others want to play it to ponder the meaning to life, the universe and everything that's your own prerogative, I'm certainly not getting in the way of that am I?
I mean it's just two different philosophies. I'd say my top RP moment was when I had the idea, back as a Fed, to form the Villore Accords back with QCATS and SOTF in the FDU. It was a simple idea that had major impact and to me "shaped the world" far more than just spinning in my ship writing about doing things ever could. I mean hell, Nennamaila is still held after all these years after I chose it as the initial FOB for what back then was just a bunch of noobs with rifters. That to me is how I play the game -- the creation of ideas that provide both fun and tangible impacts in-game.
So yeah, I can casually ignore most other RP myself because really to me it's just people writing about things without actually acting on them at all.
Also, Eve isn't real for me, sorry, so I probably don't take it as seriously as others do.
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OK, cool. But why call out others on their fluff like you did on that IGS post?
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So why are people getting offended of these things were neither directed at them, and do not apply to them?
Why is the backstage RP community targeted then ? That's silly.
Because everything that is pointed at in Veik thread is basically everything what I do, and what a lot of people do here. Starting with things like Mantenault.
How is that not directed at us ?
I'd refer to how this thread started, not how it has progressed now that everyone has stated their feelings on the matter, giving the person in question time to read through all of it.
And note: If you are not doing this as a popularity contest, then why is that the point that made you state "I am offended"?
It can be when someone starts to ascribe motives to someone else, either a targeted group or an individual. Which is, as far as I recall, breaking the rules of that forum.
Just as Veik can ignore your "sandcastles", you can ignore any kicking of them
It would also be cool if Veik actually ignored them.
And as Anslo pointed out, it's a damned game.
Shitting on each other OOCly and telling other players that their play style is "crap" is part of the game too ? Not my game, not my cup of tea. Are we in a schoolyard ?
_________________
Edit :
Its just that as I watch this, the non-RPing lowsec pirate in me starts pointing at the tear-harvesters in the midslots and gesturing wildly, because this is, ultimately, EVE Online, and this RP community is, ultimately, a tiny clique within it. When I see people getting this upset about this sort of thing I worry on a personal level as to how deep of an escape this "Monopoly Game" is.
Anyone who's watched The Guild webisodes has seen the 'stereotypical' gamers, highlighted harshly yet humorously, but remove the humor and you have a choice to either get genuinely worried about those people as people, or want to back away from them.
I'd rather not want to back away from anyone here, and would hope that something is being lost in text translation and for God's sake, on all sides, no one is taking any of this as seriously as it is coming across, and we're all posting pages and pages of explanatory pamphlets out of "I'm trapped at work and bored".
And I feel that jab was totally out of place. Thank you for the comparison with the guild. We honestly needed that.
People seem to think that because they are anonymously on the internet, they can do whatever they like and forget any notion of respect.
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OK, cool. But why call out others on their fluff like you did on that IGS post?
Because you didn't give me enough hugs Anslo.
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It can be when someone starts to ascribe motives to someone else, either a targeted group or an individual. Which is, as far as I recall, breaking the rules of that forum.
Hey,
reading this (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=283938) I found it quite amusing, but also unsuitable for the IGS. It is basically an OOC related issue presented in an IC way. It is just not possible to substantiate that something is not substantiated. Of course, there are also no ways to substantiate claims, not even for something like “I am sitting in my garden drinking coffee”. There is no way to substantiate that “Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is the Secure Commerce Commission registered conglomerate of subsidiary private military corporations acting in the interests of Kaalakiota. Wiyrkomi and Lai Dai Corporations” etc. etc. But what is the basis of rp then?
So what are we going to make out of this? Shall we start a game like this:
“You are not a duchess/subsidary of Lai Dai, because you can’t prove it”
“Look it up in the book of records/at the secure commerce commission”
“I did, but I didn’t find you”
“You took the wrong book of records/secure commerce commission”
“No, I didn’t, you are a lier!”
“No, you are, you are!”
As a consequence I think Veikitamo Gesakaarin’s posting is little different from what she is criticising, it is basically doing the same, but on a meta level. The big difference however is that those “unsubstantiated claims” are enriching our rp and stories, while the critique is basically destroying the foundations of it.
I have nothing against a bashing of Odelya—but please in way Nicoletta, Rodj and Anabella did it.
Sorry. But yeh. that rule was broken in post one, "ascribing motives" - if thats what the rule is.
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OK, cool. But why call out others on their fluff like you did on that IGS post?
Because you didn't give me enough hugs Anslo.
No, seriously. If you don't care about the RP that much, why shit on it?
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OK, cool. But why call out others on their fluff like you did on that IGS post?
Because you didn't give me enough hugs Anslo.
No, seriously. If you don't care about the RP that much, why shit on it?
Do you take it so seriously, that it irks you so?
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Apparently you took it seriously enough to call them out on IGS.
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And if you read it, the IC opinion of Veik is incorrect. The Imperial Navy does not work that way. Instead there's a threadnaught here about it.
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Apparently you took it seriously enough to call them out on IGS.
Yes, you're right. I had a laugh because it's just all so serious for me m8.
Does that make you feel better?
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Well shit, you go a long way to troll and get your kicks.
o7 m8
Edit: Still stupid imo to shit on someone's RP like that imo. Like someone said before, no one else is calling out PYRE to provide in-game, mechanic bound proof of the whole POW thing. What would you do if that happened?
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Shrug and move on?
Ooh! Ooh! I see what you're getting at. The correct answer is: Discuss for 12 pages!
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Like someone said before, no one else is calling out PYRE to provide in-game, mechanic bound proof of the whole POW thing. What would you do if that happened?
"This public disclosure forms only part of a voluntary corporate transparency that Pyre Falcon Defence Combine was not obligated to provide. As such any claims of veracity, or lack thereof, on the part of the public is held to be a non-issue, for Pyre Falcon Defence Combine remains a privately held company.
Have a nice day."
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So basically, cause you said so. Meaning people are free to discredit it as you did in your post? If so then, welp. Ok. I'm good.
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Heh, that threads is also starting to have a smell of HTFU.
It can be when someone starts to ascribe motives to someone else, either a targeted group or an individual. Which is, as far as I recall, breaking the rules of that forum.
Hey,
reading this (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=283938) I found it quite amusing, but also unsuitable for the IGS. It is basically an OOC related issue presented in an IC way. It is just not possible to substantiate that something is not substantiated. Of course, there are also no ways to substantiate claims, not even for something like “I am sitting in my garden drinking coffee”. There is no way to substantiate that “Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is the Secure Commerce Commission registered conglomerate of subsidiary private military corporations acting in the interests of Kaalakiota. Wiyrkomi and Lai Dai Corporations” etc. etc. But what is the basis of rp then?
So what are we going to make out of this? Shall we start a game like this:
“You are not a duchess/subsidary of Lai Dai, because you can’t prove it”
“Look it up in the book of records/at the secure commerce commission”
“I did, but I didn’t find you”
“You took the wrong book of records/secure commerce commission”
“No, I didn’t, you are a lier!”
“No, you are, you are!”
As a consequence I think Veikitamo Gesakaarin’s posting is little different from what she is criticising, it is basically doing the same, but on a meta level. The big difference however is that those “unsubstantiated claims” are enriching our rp and stories, while the critique is basically destroying the foundations of it.
I have nothing against a bashing of Odelya—but please in way Nicoletta, Rodj and Anabella did it.
Sorry. But yeh. that rule was broken in post one, "ascribing motives" - if thats what the rule is.
Yes, and that doesn't change my point the slightest.
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My apathy has kicked in on this topic, and it keeps making me forget to pick up my cargo on these distribution missions.
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So basically, cause you said so. Meaning people are free to discredit it as you did in your post? If so then, welp. Ok. I'm good.
Sure, if you notice I even leave people ample room to do so since I believe it to be a valid response.
Your point?
However, to say that PYRE isn't transporting POW to the Kingdom means it isn't aligned with slavers like so many have used against it, no?
Your call really, I'm good either way.
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No further point. I'm not being round about. I'm too inpatient for that. I just bluntly asked why, you answered. End of story. vOv
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Jeez, internet dies for two days and this thread is still alive? I mean, sort of alive. Kind of twitching at best.
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(http://myscriptx.com/dl/1890/thread.gif)
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:lol: