Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => The Speakeasy: OOG/Off-topic Discussion => Topic started by: Morwen Lagann on 20 Jun 2013, 13:25
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Came across this presentation (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/194571/Video_Sexism_and_sexuality_in_games.php) on Gamasutra today while I was working. It's not exactly eye-opening (in the sense that there isn't much covered that's new), but there are some particularly good anecdotes and questions scattered through the presentation that are worth thinking about and discussing, imo.
And yes, there are references to privilege in the presentation, for those who enjoy spamming suggestions to check it every 20 minutes or so. :roll: :P
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I strongly agree that sex and sexuality in games is generally massively unrealistic. Most games that deal with it are very much wish-fufillment and ego-driven exercises, devoid of much actual, healthy ways of approaching the matter.
That said, most games that deal with say, violence, are also generally massively unrealistic. Most games that deal with it are very much wish-fufillment and ego-driven exercises, devoid of much actual, healthy ways of approaching the matter.
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The problems associated with this topic aren't 'new', but people talking about them and doing something against it is. I am very happy to follow the ones rocking the boat to get something done about this subject. One of them is @femfreq on twitter and her thoughts on the sexism and unbalanced eco-system of video games I'm quite happy to echo.
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Thanks for this morwen, I do think this is an area that isn't given enough attention. I'll show this to my university feminist group, they were looking for some good info on the gaming industry.
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It's always fun to be told that I should feel guilty about something else. Fortunately, I've been playing a lot of World of Tanks lately, and, so far, I haven't found gender to be a major issue in that game. Unless premium ammo has a gender.
On a more serious note, I just want the games I pay for to be fun. I don't care if the main character is male, female, or whether they're LGBT-whatever...as long as it's fun. I'm sympathetic to wanting to not make all games WASP-rallies. But don't make a game about being socially conscious. Make it fun, first. To a certain extent, I imagine that some game developers would like to blame homophobia or sexism for the bad reviews they've had (I'm looking at you here, Bioware), when the reality was that people were really pissed about other things. And I think that really good games can introduce a lot of diversity without as many difficulties, because they are good games, and that quality allows them to better overcome the prejudices of some.
So, in other words, yes, I'm all for deleting the big boobs and introducing more realistic depictions of human diversity. But that doesn't mean that day one DLC and terrible game endings don't suck, and all the presentations from Bioware employees aren't going to convince me that my feelings on Mass Effect 3's ending are the result of sexism.
Let me bring up another point, after some more reflection. It seems to me rather suspicious that Bioware personnel are talking about this. IIRC, in Skyrim, you can be straight, gay, bi, whatever. You can marry pretty much anyone who will have you. And people in the game don't treat you markedly differently based on what gender you are or who you marry, nor are they - if you pay attention - always straight and/or white. And people loved Skyrim. I loved Skyrim. So if there's necessarily all this sexism in gaming, and all these male gamers are sexist pigs, then you need to explain why some very diverse games do so very well. Certainly some people are sexist pigs. But to call the audience for these games largely such seems less than plausible.
I would think that a lot of the hate many of these socially conscious game critics get is not due explicitly to their gender, but to the fact that they are messing with some person's toys, and gamers tend to be pretty protective of their toys.
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I strongly agree that sex and sexuality in games is generally massively unrealistic. Most games that deal with it are very much wish-fufillment and ego-driven exercises, devoid of much actual, healthy ways of approaching the matter.
Bro, are you trying to say Scarlet Blade (http://scarletblade.aeriagames.com/) is not a serious video game that deals with real cultural issues at an intellectual level?
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It's always fun to be told that I should feel guilty about something else. Fortunately, I've been playing a lot of World of Tanks lately, and, so far, I haven't found gender to be a major issue in that game. Unless premium ammo has a gender.
On a more serious note, I just want the games I pay for to be fun. I don't care if the main character is male, female, or whether they're LGBT-whatever...as long as it's fun. I'm sympathetic to wanting to not make all games WASP-rallies. But don't make a game about being socially conscious. Make it fun, first. To a certain extent, I imagine that some game developers would like to blame homophobia or sexism for the bad reviews they've had (I'm looking at you here, Bioware), when the reality was that people were really pissed about other things. And I think that really good games can introduce a lot of diversity without as many difficulties, because they are good games, and that quality allows them to better overcome the prejudices of some.
So, in other words, yes, I'm all for deleting the big boobs and introducing more realistic depictions of human diversity. But that doesn't mean that day one DLC and terrible game endings don't suck, and all the presentations from Bioware employees aren't going to convince me that my feelings on Mass Effect 3's ending are the result of sexism.
I can't help feel you're making a dichotomy which doesn't actually exist, i.e. that you can have a good game design or a socially conscious one. The idea that one takes away from the other is simply untrue.
Also this idea that devs are looking for a blame piniata in homophobia and sexism is something I just cannot get at all. Mostly because to me it makes 0 sense.
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Also this idea that devs are looking for a blame piniata in homophobia and sexism is something I just cannot get at all. Mostly because to me it makes 0 sense.
Well, after the release of Mass Effect 3, there was a general uproar over 1) the day1 DLC issue, and 2) the feeling that the ending sucked like a wind tunnel. One response within and without Bioware by a few, as I understand it, was to blame those who were unhappy for conducting a smear operation on the game for it's option to engage in a same-sex romance.
Now, as one of those who was rather unhappy with the ending myself, and as one who was actually happy to see such a character included, I found this somewhat irritating, to say the least. So, to have someone up there from Bioware talking about how gamers are such homophobes is...well, it's a bit of a red button. It's especially a bit of a red button since I'm being accused of that as part of a general pool, and I definitely do not fall into their neat little category of "our critics are bigots".
Now, in regards to your other objection, I must object in return. It absolutely is possible to have a game which is crippled by a ham-handed attempt to enforce diversity. For example, one of my favorite games, Silent Hunter 4, would not be as good if it tried to incorporate maximum diversity into the ship's crew (regardless of historical realism), and include missions demonstrating the ravages of British imperialism in the far East which lead to the actions of Japan having some credibility in the eyes of the oppressed peoples of those lands. Would it be more socially conscious to include such things? For a certain definition of that, yes. On the other hand, it would ruin it as a simulation of a World War 2 American submarine.
To put it another way, what I'm trying to say is that the entire talk is a non-issue, to a certain extent. It's not a non-issue because sexism doesn't exist in video games - it certainly does! The talk, as presented, is a non-issue because the speaker is assuming that gamers are sexist and homophobic and so forth on the whole, but every game company that bothers to ignore this assumption - Bethesda often does, as I noted - does not pay the price that he assumes they will.
The problem, then, isn't all game companies, or gaming culture, as much as it is this guy and his damn company. Hey, I'm not the one who came up with the all-female very-sexualized lesbian-sex-doll race of the Asari (Mass Effect), and I can't be the only one who thinks that that was a bit...off. Nor was I overly fond of the choice between strong-but-stupid evil girl (Morrigan) and weak-but-nice good girl (Leilana) in Dragon Age. Why can't strong women be good? I enjoyed those games, to a certain extent, but it was in spite of those things that made me wince. And that was ALL BIOWARE. And he wants to talk about an uncomfortable situation they changed? Seriously, the solution for their problems is not to wait for some woman in their company to get uncomfortable, but to grab their editing pen and sit down with an actually honest attempt to think about some of the characters and situations in their game. Or, fuck, just possessing a modicum of common sense. Personally, one good thing about my anti-bioware rage is that, since I'm not playing their games as much, I've had to rescue a lot fewer damsels. Except for the ones in Eve. :bash:
...no, really, you could almost write a book about all the sexist shit in Dragon Age.
Meanwhile, other companies and other games have been produced with strong female leads, strong minority leads, allowances for same-sex relationships, and so forth, and gamers have eaten them up like candy, across eras. Metroid. The Walking Dead (the computer game, ofc). Skyrim. Half-Life 2 (you and Alyx take turns being action heroes). The point isn't that we don't have enough diversity, it's that being told that the lack of diversity is the fault of the gaming audience is a total load of shit, even if it's "well, we taught you to be that way".
Here's a fun demographic fact: the audience that gaming companies cater to are the younger generations, who, on the whole, are far more welcoming of diversity and tolerance than older generations. Gaming companies are not reacting to audience desires. They are the ones entirely responsible for the lack of diversity in gaming, and companies that have broken that mold have made games that sold like hot-cakes - they just had to be good games. Blaming the audience, from a company like Bioware that has pulled so many stereotypes that it's not even funny, is such a mouthful of epic bullshit that I'd rather go elsewhere to hear even the valid points that guy might have been making.
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Yeah. If Bioware think the biggest problem in Mass Effect 3 was the big gay supply officer and not the fact that their lead writer phoned in the ending to a ten year epic journey through one man's determination to take shit from nobody, then there are bigger problems in the industry than homophobia.
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People were upset about the gay dude. There was post upon post. Various petitions. In a lecture on Sex and Sexuality in Video Games, he's going to highlight it.
No, that doesn't mean he thinks that's the 'biggest problem' with Mass Effect 3.
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For example, one of my favorite games, Silent Hunter 4, would not be as good if it tried to incorporate maximum diversity into the ship's crew (regardless of historical realism), and include missions demonstrating the ravages of British imperialism in the far East which lead to the actions of Japan having some credibility in the eyes of the oppressed peoples of those lands. Would it be more socially conscious to include such things? For a certain definition of that, yes. On the other hand, it would ruin it as a simulation of a World War 2 American submarine.
That's a bit of a diversion, really; the feminist (and LGBTQ/minority in general) beef with video games and culture in the large is not that they'd like representations of themselves wedged into any space available, as if they'd need votes for Video Game Character Congress.
The problem is that they're often not represented at all or poorly in situations where it would make sense to do so, and when they are, they tend to be reduced to tropes or plot devices, and often quite damaging ones at that.
The inclusion that they want isn't forced at all costs, or even "empowered" -- in fact, a lot of "empowered" portrayals end up being comedy or wank material anyway -- just honest ones. That's few and far enough between as is.
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People and a lot of gamers especially are often homophobic, sexist, macho people out of insecurity or ignorance. You just have to look at Eve or the internet culture in general.
Fun fact is that a lot of game developers are too since most of them are gamers as well.
That said, it's more endemic to a more general trend that considers that young men target audience has to like that kind of generalizations. Looking at you publishers.
That being said I rather like the view of Rhianna Pratchett (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/05/06/rhianna-pratchetts-1reasontobe/) on the matter.
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Now, on the presentation itself, the guy is certainly right by saying that what Bioware chose to show and NOT show as romances in their game is an implicit statement on their behalf. I remember being a little annoyed when I first saw romances in Mass Effect for example, when it literally shouted at our faces "alien space lesbian phantasm" with nothing else besides, except the standard straight romance. It felt to me very like the issue described above : nergasm created by nerd devs for the sake of diversity, or forced by ignorant publishers because it's what sells.
And then they got more conservative in ME2 with mostly straight romances, even if some of them still with aliens. Then came ME3, where they suddenly tried to picture a gay, MALE relationship as a counterpart of the female gay one. Funnily enough, reactions were outrage for the former, and "lolawesome" for the latter. Male nerd reactions ? Not sure, as I am not gay so I wouldnt be able to tell if the male gay relationship was genuine or just cheesy, no more that I can tell the same for the female one. However, I do feel that the intent behind them was right.
Apparently they did it in DA too, but I have not played that license to be able to comment.
Also, the argument on "privilege" is sound, period. Privileged people will always complain as soon as one starts to target other audiences in the same kind of game genre. Mostly because they havs always been used to be the only sole target in the past. The usual fallacy is to consider that since it's not a problem for them, then it's not a problem period. It's quite common to read that among any commentaries from gamers, or devs, or publishers. That's conservative ignorance at its finest. "How do we not repel the women/else ?" and not "How do we attract them ?"
I didn't really understand that as an excuse or justification on why bioware got flak on what went wrong with some of their titles. Actually the only thing that got flak in their romances was mostly that male gay romance in ME3 and the opposite reactions to their romance scenes from Fox News people to my knowledge... Bioware certainly got flak for the choices of audiences they made, but that was from some of the privileged straight males and that was mostly non related to other issues more tied to gameplay and design.
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I liked Steve from ME3...just sort of says "had a husband back on earth" out of nowhere, and no one blinks an eye. It's sort of how I would picture the future. Or when Kaiden propositioned my male Shepard, turning him down was a case of just citing professionalism rather than going "I ain't no faggot". Like it was normal to assume that people were bi in the future. Macho Shepard didn't take an issue. Really perplexed why people are upset with that.
Secondly, since the US opened up all combat jobs to women, including special forces, game developers have no excuse not to depict female soldiers in all future games depicting modern warfare (except if set prior 2013 ofc). I'm looking at you, Battlefield and CoD.
I'd like to see CoD 2k14 have a female protagonist actually. Gamers could bitch while the devs play dumb and say "I don't get why people are upset...women can now serve as frontline fighters!"
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That's a bit of a diversion, really; the feminist (and LGBTQ/minority in general) beef with video games and culture in the large is not that they'd like representations of themselves wedged into any space available, as if they'd need votes for Video Game Character Congress.
The problem is that they're often not represented at all or poorly in situations where it would make sense to do so, and when they are, they tend to be reduced to tropes or plot devices, and often quite damaging ones at that.
You're conflating a "is it possible" response with an "is that what they want one". Moreover, there are those who will criticize games set in historical eras or other circumstances for not conforming to modern concerns.
Anyway, as to your second statement, I agree whole-heartedly. But I'd much rather listen to some video by someone who has a clue than one of the writers of Dragon Age, which I could use as a primer if I were teaching a class about how to avoid prejudice.
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Is it really so important who the messenger is, Vikarion? I think what should count is the message.
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What does David Gaider not have a clue about?
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Is it really so important who the messenger is, Vikarion? I think what should count is the message.
Well, yes, it sometimes does.
As an extreme example, suppose that you find out that a speaker on anti-semitism is a member of a white supremacist group. This might lead you to doubt the veracity of his conclusions about what steps are to be taken.
Now, I am certainly not saying that the speaker is anything so bad. But the writing for Dragon Age has a LOT of "-ism" problems with it, problems that were by no means mandated for fun or for story. And Bioware is also known for having essentially tried to tar people who had legitimate complaints about their product with the brushes of homophobia and sexism. So, in other words, yeah, I do think that this company and this guy are pretty much contaminated as a source for anything regarding these concerns.
Now, some of the people he references are definitely interesting, and I would recommend simply skipping him and his thoughts, and going straight to theirs.
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First, you're implying that people can't learn from their mistakes, which seems kind of msianthropic to me.
Second, I subscribe to the idea of not judging the message by who the messenger is. If what the member of the white supremacist group says on anti-semitism is right, I might wonder whether the speaker lives up to that, but it doesn't devalue what he said.
Or to put it another way: While I can understand that you doubt the conclusions of said Bioware employee because he is such, I can't understand that you apparently stop listening at that point and don't weigh what he says on it's own merit, to see whether that doubt is justified.
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^That ?
Anyway, as to your second statement, I agree whole-heartedly. But I'd much rather listen to some video by someone who has a clue than one of the writers of Dragon Age, which I could use as a primer if I were teaching a class about how to avoid prejudice.
Prejudice is the exact thing you are doing by dismissing the value behind the presentation of the guy just because of one of his many works (DA).
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^That ?
Anyway, as to your second statement, I agree whole-heartedly. But I'd much rather listen to some video by someone who has a clue than one of the writers of Dragon Age, which I could use as a primer if I were teaching a class about how to avoid prejudice.
Prejudice is the exact thing you are doing by dismissing the value behind the presentation of the guy just because of one of his many works (DA).
So, because I think that the guy is a flaming hypocrite and unreliable in regard to these issues due to his past work, you think that that makes me sexist, homophobic, and etc?
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Vikarion, you should try googling the words "bioware" and "sexism".
I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
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How is David Gaider a flaming hypocrite?
His work isn't perfect but he's never claimed it is. He's been rather open to criticism from a social justice perspective.
You can't blame him for BioWare's entire output as he's the lead writer for only one game line. A game line that's gotten a fair bit of praise for its handling of some issues.
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^That ?
Anyway, as to your second statement, I agree whole-heartedly. But I'd much rather listen to some video by someone who has a clue than one of the writers of Dragon Age, which I could use as a primer if I were teaching a class about how to avoid prejudice.
Prejudice is the exact thing you are doing by dismissing the value behind the presentation of the guy just because of one of his many works (DA).
So, because I think that the guy is a flaming hypocrite and unreliable in regard to these issues due to his past work, you think that that makes me sexist, homophobic, and etc?
Uh no, that is definitely not what I meant.
Just on the assumption that the guy was (maybe ? he was not alone in his team btw) behind some fuckups like in DA as you says, which constitutes just ONE of his many works, you call his opinion and the content of his presentation out for prejudice. You are the one guilty of prejudice here, that's a pretty bad ad hominem to make (poisoning the well ?), rather than addressing the damn point.
That's would be just like calling the content of your speech full of prejudice and irrelevant just because you fucked up in the past on some of your work at some point.
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How is David Gaider a flaming hypocrite?
His work isn't perfect but he's never claimed it is. He's been rather open to criticism from a social justice perspective.
You can't blame him for BioWare's entire output as he's the lead writer for only one game line. A game line that's gotten a fair bit of praise for its handling of some issues.
Well, I could go through a long exposition of the sexist bullcrap to be found throughout Dragon Age, but I won't. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who has played the game, and considers those issues. Let's just consider one case.
The only lesbian character in the game, so far as I remember, is a Knight Templar-ish dwarven female who abandons her husband to drag her lover and her entire house into enemy territory in a wild goose chase for an artifact that consumes souls to make weapons. She also acts like a complete psychopath in the abandonment of her house and lover to abhorrent fates, save for those she uses to spring traps in pursuit of said evil artifact.
Keep in mind, aside from Leilana and Zevran (who are, apparently, bi), this is quite possibly the ONLY LGBT character in the game. And Leilana and Zevran are both - you got it - assassins for hire. Oh, and Zevran just wants casual sex.
...really Bioware? Really? And I'm supposed to listen to this guy?
Incidentally, if Bioware fans are supposed to be such queer-hating assholes, that sure didn't stop them from buying as many copies of a game containing a casual-sex loving gay elf. I maintain, however, that Sten was more attractive.
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That's would be just like calling the content of your speech full of prejudice and irrelevant just because you fucked up in the past on some of your work at some point.
Perhaps you are right. The problem seems to be (at least from my perspective) that he thinks that he and his have done a fairly progressive job, and his company and supporters have not shied away from calling those who criticized their games "homophobes", among other things. That's a particularly asshole-ish thing to do, and so, my opinion is that he's poisoned his own well.
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How is David Gaider a flaming hypocrite?
His work isn't perfect but he's never claimed it is. He's been rather open to criticism from a social justice perspective.
You can't blame him for BioWare's entire output as he's the lead writer for only one game line. A game line that's gotten a fair bit of praise for its handling of some issues.
Well, I could go through a long exposition of the sexist bullcrap to be found throughout Dragon Age, but I won't. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who has played the game, and considers those issues. Let's just consider one case.
The only lesbian character in the game, so far as I remember, is a Knight Templar-ish dwarven female who abandons her husband to drag her lover and her entire house into enemy territory in a wild goose chase for an artifact that consumes souls to make weapons. She also acts like a complete psychopath in the abandonment of her house and lover to abhorrent fates, save for those she uses to spring traps in pursuit of said evil artifact.
Keep in mind, aside from Leilana and Zevran (who are, apparently, bi), this is quite possibly the ONLY LGBT character in the game. And Leilana and Zevran are both - you got it - assassins for hire. Oh, and Zevran just wants casual sex.
...really Bioware? Really? And I'm supposed to listen to this guy?
Incidentally, if Bioware fans are supposed to be such queer-hating assholes, that sure didn't stop them from buying as many copies of a game containing a casual-sex loving gay elf. I maintain, however, that Sten was more attractive.
Bis aren't LGBT? I thought that's what the B stood for ;)
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Harren and Wade are also a couple. Hespith is the name of Branka's lover. Marjoline was Leliana's mentor/lover but she's bisexual.
The only lesbian character in the game, so far as I remember, is a Knight Templar-ish dwarven female who abandons her husband to drag her lover and her entire house into enemy territory in a wild goose chase for an artifact that consumes souls to make weapons. She also acts like a complete psychopath in the abandonment of her house and lover to abhorrent fates, save for those she uses to spring traps in pursuit of said evil artifact.
Written by Jennifer.
Leilana
Written by Sheryl.
Zevran
Hey look, a character written by David.
Oh, and Zevran just wants casual sex.
Except for the part where he falls in love with you.
Other romancable characters of David's: Morigan, Viconia, and Fenris. All start with ‘this is just physical, I feel nothing for you’ and all end with them declaring their everlasting love.
It’s almost as though David uses a similar love story regardless of the gender or sexual orientation of the characters.
Incidentally, if Bioware fans are supposed to be such queer-hating assholes…
Good thing David never said that. There are BioWare fans who are queer-hating assholes, however, and like most internet bigots, tend to be loud and annoying.
Your criticism is ‘I don’t like the way Dragon Age handled queer characters, so nothing David Gaider says about sex or sexuality matters.’
This ignores the fact that 1) Dragon Age’s inclusion of queer characters is widely lauded and 2) fans have criticized social justice elements in the DA franchise and David has been quite responsive.
And honestly, even if the presentation of same-sex desire in ME and DA was done poorly*, BioWare and David Gaider are still doing better than 90% of the game industry. They’re still one of the few game companies to even attempt to make a social stance. A lead writer is out there talking to and engaging with the gaming community about these things. I think that’s great.
*And I don't think it was.
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Harren and Wade are also a couple. Hespith is the name of Branka's lover. Marjoline was Leliana's mentor/lover but she's bisexual.
Ah, I did not know that Harren and Wade are a couple. I don't think that there's any confirmation of that in the game. As for Hespith, certainly, but she's not exactly a positive depiction either. And Marjoline is portrayed as being flatly evil and irredeemable.
The only lesbian character in the game, so far as I remember, is a Knight Templar-ish dwarven female who abandons her husband to drag her lover and her entire house into enemy territory in a wild goose chase for an artifact that consumes souls to make weapons. She also acts like a complete psychopath in the abandonment of her house and lover to abhorrent fates, save for those she uses to spring traps in pursuit of said evil artifact.
Written by Jennifer.
Alright. I was under the impression that Gaider was the lead writer, and presumably in charge of the plot. Whether he is or not, however, I still think that that depiction is flat out horrible.
Leilana
Written by Sheryl.
Tell Sheryl that not all empowered, seductive women are secretly religious nut-cases who just need someone else to rescue them, then.
Zevran
Hey look, a character written by David.
Oh, and Zevran just wants casual sex.
Except for the part where he falls in love with you.
Ah, sorry. See, I usually end up going after Morrigan. Because she often seems like the only sane one of the bunch.
Other romancable characters of David's: Morigan, Viconia, and Fenris. All start with ‘this is just physical, I feel nothing for you’ and all end with them declaring their everlasting love.
It’s almost as though David uses a similar love story regardless of the gender or sexual orientation of the characters.
David wrote Viconia?
Well, fuck. I guess I have to give him a little credit, then. Minor apologies. :P
Incidentally, if Bioware fans are supposed to be such queer-hating assholes…
Good thing David never said that. There are BioWare fans who are queer-hating assholes, however, and like most internet bigots, tend to be loud and annoying.
That's a bit of sarcasm and hyperbole. My point is that, for all that some people want to accuse people who didn't like Dragon Age/DA2 or Mass Effect of homophobia, the reality is that some of those sold really well, while still including LGBT elements. If the average gamer is as homophobic as he seems to imply, that doesn't make sense.
Your criticism is ‘I don’t like the way Dragon Age handled queer characters, so nothing David Gaider says about sex or sexuality matters.’
This ignores the fact that 1) Dragon Age’s inclusion of queer characters is widely lauded and 2) fans have criticized social justice elements in the DA franchise and David has been quite responsive.
And honestly, even if the presentation of same-sex desire in ME and DA was done poorly*, BioWare and David Gaider are still doing better than 90% of the game industry. They’re still one of the few game companies to even attempt to make a social stance. A lead writer is out there talking to and engaging with the gaming community about these things. I think that’s great.
*And I don't think it was.
Actually, my criticism is "seeing as we have much better sources for opinions on this subject, why are we listening to Gaider?"
and
"Since Bioware has such a bad history RE: blaming their fans, why are we listening to what they have to say about gamer demographics?"
It's not that I don't think that there are homophobes out there. I happen to know - in part by personal experience - that there are. I also happen to think that game depictions of them could be better. But I also happen to have the same opinion of Bioware as one tends to have about a viper in one's bed: not to be cuddled with, not to be trusted, and you probably shouldn't take advice from it, either.
Here are a few instances of Bioware blaming its fans:
http://www.gamefront.com/dr-zeschuk-me3-fans-had-unreasonable-expectations-for-ending/ (http://www.gamefront.com/dr-zeschuk-me3-fans-had-unreasonable-expectations-for-ending/)
http://blogs.bettor.com/Anonymous-Bioware-Insider-blames-fans-for-SWTOR-Video-Games-Update-a173317 (http://blogs.bettor.com/Anonymous-Bioware-Insider-blames-fans-for-SWTOR-Video-Games-Update-a173317)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/04/05/ea-in-full-damage-control-mode-points-to-anti-gay-hate-mail/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/04/05/ea-in-full-damage-control-mode-points-to-anti-gay-hate-mail/)
http://moarpowah.com/2011/03/16/commentary-fan-backlash-to-dragon-age-ii/ (http://moarpowah.com/2011/03/16/commentary-fan-backlash-to-dragon-age-ii/)
As well as pulling general bullshit - compare the following:
http://www.gamefront.com/the-mass-effect3-ending-backlash-continues-to-gain-steam/ (http://www.gamefront.com/the-mass-effect3-ending-backlash-continues-to-gain-steam/)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/04/15/mass-effect-3-ending-provoked-a-bigger-fan-reaction-than-any-other-in-video-game-history/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/04/15/mass-effect-3-ending-provoked-a-bigger-fan-reaction-than-any-other-in-video-game-history/)
So, let's be honest: I think Bethesda has done a much better job of portraying gays and lesbians as normal and accepted people in their games. And it has not escaped my attention that you can marry who you want in that game. And yet, somehow, Bethesda has apparently not become a giant target of immense homophobia.
Perhaps that's the sex scenes in ME/DA. Could be. Or perhaps Bioware just isn't being truthful. Or perhaps Bioware pisses off its fan base to the point where they'll fling any sort of poo at them - they haven't managed that with me, but they got close enough for me to understand the feeling. In any case, it's probably pretty understandable that some people would have a strong negative reaction towards being lectured by Bioware employees on any subject.
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So, let's be honest: I think Bethesda has done a much better job of portraying gays and lesbians as normal and accepted people in their games. And it has not escaped my attention that you can marry who you want in that game. And yet, somehow, Bethesda has apparently not become a giant target of immense homophobia.
Given that I've not played a massive amount of Skyrim and Fallout (both 3 and NV), take what I say with a hefty dose of salt... but I frankly find that Bethesda's ability to seriously characterise is lacking. That's not necessarily a comment on their ability, but on their focus. They make grand open-world games - that's great. But from everything I've read, the marriage system in Skyrim is tacked on and a complete joke. It's treated like an achievement hunt rather than a serious roleplaying commitment. You don't play Bethesda games for good characters or engaging plotlines (although don't get me wrong, there are some fun ones), you play them to go wherever the hell you want and stab random monsters. Bioware doesn't do open world, so it by necessity has to focus on character and character relationships, so attention gets drawn there.
I'm not saying that Bethesda's 'marry anyone' approach isn't worthy of some praise. I am saying that it amounts to 'pick a rock. We don't mind if it's blue or red, up to you.' rather than actually being any real stance or commitment to mechanics.
...yeah, I'm not particularly enamored with Bethesda's stuff, in case you didn't guess. :P
Interestingly enough, the game that's hit me the hardest in terms of relationships and connections with people is actually a Neverwinter Nights mod called A Dance with Rogues. Very NSFW, and at first glance it's kind of silly, with a fair chunk of dialogue-based sex and such... but I don't remember the last time I got that drawn into a character's fate. It pulls absolutely zero punches, and some of them are pretty brutal. Worth a look if you still have that old epic floating around.
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The biggest point I tend to take home from lectures, blogs and other media dealing with this topic, is that a writing team of between one and a dozen people, is never going to be representative of the sexual views of the 'mainstream' ( Straight, Cis, Missionary-for-the-purpose-of-procreation [I jest]) population - and then we go and get into deep and difficult territory because the mainstream is pretty much just society kidding itself that what goes on in the bedroom is a social issue at all (we turn it into one, but that's a whole other debate).
Consider the Martian scenario. A being from space comes down and requires a full breakdown of human sexual practices, for any and all reasons, combinations and so forth, but only wants 12 accounts. There'd be outrage! This visitor from the stars is going to get 12 points of view out of 7 billion, not to mention this assumes that the visitor gets to 'fairly and evenly pick 12 different views'.
Now let's switch back to reality. We're asking the same of our writers and developers here, in a society that is incapable of fairly and evenly choosing, in which period-accurate sexual/gender issues may still be used to pursue dubious literary and media agendas (dubious as in against freedom of self expression/personal fulfillment). Many attempts at equality come across as 'throwing them a bone' or worse, actually are tongue in cheek appeasement with a bit of rib elbowing around the water cooler at a groups expense. Others, for instance Scarlet Blade, are just so eye-scorchingly bad that one hopes they are a joke at the expense of the stereotypical internet neck-beard power fantasy.
The point I am trying to make, is that change starts with the consumer. Companies will continue to sell myths and legends about otherwise normal, if private, acts - so long as it sells. So long as it keeps them in the papers for the right reasons and so long as people exist that will see outrage as hype and taboo breaking as the highest form of plot development (pro-tip - it really isn't).
We need to ask higher standards of writers and developers - not just to combat social injustice at large, but to bring sexual representation up to a period-accurate or setting specific, and MATURE level.
If I'm playing in a low fantasy borderline medieval setting with gender equality (Skyrim is a good example of the 'it just happened' female empowerment trope in such a setting), I don't want to then be smashed in the face (Skyrim doesn't do this) with plot devices in which gender or sex becomes a critical social issue (unless such has already been identified as key to the setting - for instance equality is new/barely tolerated/not universal).
I am starting to lose my thread of thought, so I will wrap it up. These issues are huge, and the best thing I think that games can do is make it clear that they cannot hope to represent the whole slew of sexual/gender issues that plague our still maturing society. We're asking of developers and writers what we dare not ask of ourselves, of the 'old fashioned' grandparent who sometimes talks in hushed tones about 'them gays' and what many consider less important than the next four to five years of tax policy when engaging with their political representatives.
Once the consumer base identifies these alternative lifestyles as legitimate, private choices that are not custom crafted as discussion topics or spectacle, we will be on the way to raising and education a generation of writers that don't see the inclusion of a homosexual engineer as a vital plot point, but as organic happenstance complete with a back story. He's not the gay engineer because he is gay, and an engineer, a trope set up to turn the typical 'grease, guts and gleaming chrome' world of star ship engineering on it's head. He will be a man who grew, studied, tried his hand at his first adult experiences (if such a conversation comes up - romance arc nostalgia dialogue maybe?), came out (or maybe not?), but through it all those sexual experiences just define a facet of this man. He's a goddamned engineer. I care about if he has the engine running and how those hull repairs are going, not where he's parking the pork bus. Unless I'm pursuing the damned romance arc. In the latter case, let's push for a generation of writers who see sexuality and sex as more than the act.
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That's would be just like calling the content of your speech full of prejudice and irrelevant just because you fucked up in the past on some of your work at some point.
Perhaps you are right. The problem seems to be (at least from my perspective) that he thinks that he and his have done a fairly progressive job, and his company and supporters have not shied away from calling those who criticized their games "homophobes", among other things. That's a particularly asshole-ish thing to do, and so, my opinion is that he's poisoned his own well.
Maybe yes, I don't know enough on the subject to have a real idea or opinion on this particular side of the matter.
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=opM3T2__lZA (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=opM3T2__lZA)
Thread necro
This explains well.
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Heh, nice little series of videos.
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Late to the party, but I have OPINIONS, dammit!
And people in the game don't treat you markedly differently based on what gender you are or who you marry, nor are they - if you pay attention - always straight and/or white. And people loved Skyrim. I loved Skyrim. So if there's necessarily all this sexism in gaming, and all these male gamers are sexist pigs, then you need to explain why some very diverse games do so very well. Certainly some people are sexist pigs. But to call the audience for these games largely such seems less than plausible.
I'm not sure Skyrim (or any of the elder scrolls games) are the best example here. For the record, I love the elder scrolls and Daggerfall is absolutely one of my favourite games, but due to its sandbox nature same sex marriage etc tends to be something very much in the background (like many, many aspects of the game). I.e you can do it if you want to, but it's not going to intrude on you in any way shape or form if you don't or wish to ignore it. It's completely non-threatening. So no one is going to get bent out of shape over it.
I don't think you DO need to explain why Skyrim did well despite having that option, as it wasn't that option that made the game popular and sell well.
I would think that a lot of the hate many of these socially conscious game critics get is not due explicitly to their gender, but to the fact that they are messing with some person's toys, and gamers tend to be pretty protective of their toys.
Hm. Not just socially conscious game critics, anyone espousing a progressive viewpoint tends to get hate re: video games from certain quarters. Thing is (and the thing that certain vocal straight male gamers seem to not fathom) is that they're my toys too. Always have been (or since I was about five) And I want them to be better.
By better I mean more complex, dynamic, thoughtful, innovative etc etc. I want realistic three dimensional characters that I can believe in. I'd rather games avoided using the same tired tropes (such as the damsel in distress) not because I find them offensive, but because it's lazy writing and (often) bad storytelling.
Which is not to say there can't be room for simple mindless violence, ofc. I'm not asking for Shakespeare here, but I'd prefer anything using story as a selling point to have a good one, with convincing characters.
It's generally not a case of trying to take anything away from anyone or censor anything - they just want more choice and, frankly, for the bar to be raised a bit. Or that's certainly what I want, anyways.
In other news, it's worth watching this for the lolz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njHMRoAD9gk&list=FL3YrbAjTOWsYyxF5S5HJY7g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njHMRoAD9gk&list=FL3YrbAjTOWsYyxF5S5HJY7g)
'Lord, Give Me Strength: A Dramatic Reading' which shows outrage at a female gamer wanting to be treated as an equal at E3 and argues that wimminz should just make their own, separate, games if they have any issues with the ones around already.
Amusing.
Thing is though, I think he *does* correctly identify that so many games are just...fucking stupid because they're appealing to the lowest common denominator for low risk quick cash. Difference is he seems proud of that, whereas I think, I know, games can do better.
The most interesting games at the moment seem to be indie ones vov
edit: as an aside, re: 'they're my toys too' once upon a time on the eve-online forums I read a post asking in what ways eve could be changed to be more female friendly and attract more female players. I cringed a bit, although I'm sure the intention was well meaning. Not only did that get the backs up of the knee-jerk reactionary people who were all YOU AREN'T FEMINIZING MY EVE! but it also completely overlooked the female gamers who already played and enjoyed it.
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This is mostly a reaction to Kala's post. Because I just read it.
To be fair Eve's penetration of the female demographic is minimal, to put it kindly. (If you'll pardon the parlance.)
Also, in a completely ironic turn of events, you are expressing outrage at being marginalised because CCP seek to introduce a wider audience, which is pretty much in total counterpoint to the first part of your post where you slap around people who feel outrage at being marginalised because Developers are seeking to be welcoming to a wider demographic. :3
None of this detracts from the sense of your points - I just thought it was funny.
Something you said regarding Skyrim sort of jarred with me, I don't know how others felt about it, but you said that controversy regarding same-sex marriages in Skyrim was low because they were non-threatening. That sort of rubbed me up the wrong way because I find same-sex relationships and marriages unthreatening a posteriori.
Should they be threatening? How would that look?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbuPwVI4N8
Now, this IS old news, because I left the industry about five years ago - BUT I have sat on the hiring teams for designers in the games industry. Female game designer candidates who were equivalently qualified were basically as common as rocking horse shit. If you wanted to hire a woman you were, generally, turning away a more qualified applicant who would be a better fit to the team.
I'm pretty sure that's not how woman game designers wanted to get hired. For their bumpy bits and not because they're the best person for the job.
I hope that's changed. Changing that was always going to be part of the challenge, in my opinion.
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It's not threatening per se, it's threatening for people that rely heavily on priviledge.
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Something you said regarding Skyrim sort of jarred with me, I don't know how others felt about it, but you said that controversy regarding same-sex marriages in Skyrim was low because they were non-threatening. That sort of rubbed me up the wrong way because I find same-sex relationships and marriages unthreatening a posteriori.
Should they be threatening? How would that look?
My personal interpretation of that bit was similar to my own statement earlier in the thread - Skyrim's relationships are about as deep as a puddle, and from my understanding of the mechanics involved, there is functionally no difference in presentation between homosexual and heterosexual relations except for appearance. It's 'unthreatening' because it barely qualifies as a relationship and thus wouldn't rustle any feathers except for the most hardcore boneheads.
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I'll grant you that the relationships in Skyrim are as superficial as aluminium sidinf.
That said though - how are the relationships supposed to be different?
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I'll grant you that the relationships in Skyrim are as superficial as aluminium sidinf.
That said though - how are the relationships supposed to be different?
They aren't. But there's a difference between leaving something the same to make that point, and leaving them the same because it's a tacked on mechanic that doesn't even acknowledge the player beyond activating some sequence of bits.
Relationships tend to be similar, or at least to be part of a limited selection of archetypes, regardless of who is involved. This does not mean that I, a heterosexual male, do not have preferences in terms of who I would form an intimate relationship with (note: I'm talking IRL here). The Skyrim approach grinds my suspension of disbelief something horrible as a result.
I will, to be fair, admit that I've never actually gone through the process in that game, merely poked about on the wiki on the matter. What I saw was sufficient to put me off actually trying it for the aforementioned reasons.
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=opM3T2__lZA (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=opM3T2__lZA)
Thread necro
This explains well.
The creators were wise to disable comments to avoid the shit-storm going on around the topic, but basically all I see are YT explanations for why tropes against females are bad. I agree with all points raised in all of the one's I've seen so far, but beyond myself agreeing, I can't help but feel somewhat slighted, if for the only reason that there is no counter present that I can see, unless I've missed them.
Ofc, the purpose of the videos was (I assume) to pull attention to bad tropes regarding females, and not absolutely to argue for equality, so I can't demand to much. But from my personal viewpoint regarding equality, I can't help but feel this is akin to an argument that don't permit any answer or counter argument by simply not allowing any response. Sexism goes both ways, but honestly the creators here don't seem to care.
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I can't help but feel this is akin to an argument that don't permit any answer or counter argument by simply not allowing any response.
Just because comments are disabled on YouTube, it doesn't mean there can't be any discussion or counter. Not that you would ever in a million years have anything approaching a discussion in YouTube comments. We all know exactly what kind of "discussion" there would be if comments were open: we all saw the rape threats and the general torrent of shit that the original Kickstarter generated from the entitled mouthbreathers that dominate the Internet. Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Sarkeesian).
The discussion just has to take place in a different venue. The counter, if there is one, can be a video in response, a blog post, or a forum post.
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I realize that. I am simply commenting on a... 'feel' I got from the vids. Obviously I agree with you on the YT 'discussion' thing - I mention that in the very first line :P
Well, impressions and feelings aside, any known avenue for these things to be discussed in a bit more civilized manner?
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=opM3T2__lZA (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=opM3T2__lZA)
Thread necro
This explains well.
The creators were wise to disable comments to avoid the shit-storm going on around the topic, but basically all I see are YT explanations for why tropes against females are bad. I agree with all points raised in all of the one's I've seen so far, but beyond myself agreeing, I can't help but feel somewhat slighted, if for the only reason that there is no counter present that I can see, unless I've missed them.
Ofc, the purpose of the videos was (I assume) to pull attention to bad tropes regarding females, and not absolutely to argue for equality, so I can't demand to much.
Well it doesn't take too much creativity, really.
Look at your game shelf, and I'm pretty sure, if you're honest to yourself you can find at least one example where a female character is only there because she's female.
But, really, that's only a start. Look at the games on your shelf. You'll notice a few things.
1) Most will feature yon penis-bearers as main characters, simple.
2) Most Adult Female main characters follow a number of of these specific design parameters:
- Most will be conventionally beautiful and/or wear as little as legally required.
- In groups of main characters, they are either the only female, or accompanied by another female who's only real role is "opposite of this girl"
- Some will have excessive focus on their femininity, or more specifically, stereotypes of femininity. From the mild, being helpless and gentle, to the worst such as "How do we make this girl a deeper character? I know! Rape/abuse/torture survivor!" i.e. she's only strong because she cant get over how weak she was.
- On the other hand, developers have a cunning solution which is to bring up gender as little as possible, basically "By the way, have you noticed I have breasts?"
- Some games just plain don't have any female main characters of particular note or importance.
None of this is just an accident, and truth be told, Smurfette principle doesn't even scratch the surface.
Sexism goes both ways, but honestly the creators here don't seem to care
I have to speak my mind here, that's like a, 1800s supporter of the slave trade saying "What are you African folks complaining about? Some white people live in poverty too you know!"
The aim of that of course, is not to smear you or say that this is exactly what you're doing, but to point out that yes, some men do suffer sexism, but men are not on the real pointy end of it it. Women do not benefit from sexism, but men? Being born a man means more open Labour markets, less sexual discrimination in the workplace, easier entrance and more staying power in politics at every level, less domestic abuse, higher income, larger pensions, less expenses, less likely to suffer sexual abuse, near-immune to "slut shaming" and "victim blaming", more likely to own land, less likely to live in poverty. Just off the top of my head
But, what you say is also very true: Men do suffer sexism, and that is wrong. In the context of debate, i.e. the inequality of men and women on every level, sexism suffered by men is important, very much so, things like rape not being counted as such because men can't be raped apparently, are important talking points.
But the problem that most advocates of the males-suffer-sexism-too camp, is that they frame it as "Men have it just as hard as women, if not harder." They do not recognise that it's not an issue on the other side of the scales, but a sure and direct result of the gender stereotypes we're all talking about! All sexism, against men and women, is a product of a society which gives one gender more power.
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To be fair Eve's penetration of the female demographic is minimal, to put it kindly. (If you'll pardon the parlance.)
Sure. And it was even less at the time; player base was low and percentage of female players was very low.
I didn't mean to necessarily express outrage, I said I cringed. Because it came across as patronising and the suggestion (in the context of the thread, mind you) pleased no one - male or female. The most sensible (in my opinion) posit was that real life gender shouldn't matter either way; we're all here to just play the game. But that said, I can understand the irritation at being written out when you're already a minority.
Of course I understood the intention - to be more inclusive and make more money. Neither of which would be bad things. Just that it overlooked the points outlined above, and if anything came across as naive if well-intentioned.
I meant it more as an extension of the 'toys' point (which does regard marginalisation - ignoring a proportion of a playerbase, however small, when kind of referring to them at the same time...well it's kind of like talking about you when you're in the room) but also just as something I found interesting at the time (and still do). I'll bring up that point not just in regards to gender, by the by, but also about how I feel it's (always) important not to lose sight of what your original vision is when attempting to broaden your userbase. I'm not saying don't adapt or be flexible, what I'm saying is...
If you build it, they will come. Broadening your appeal is fine, as long as you still have the spirit of what everyone is there in the first place for. The women who liked the game are already enjoying it; change it too much to fit into some idea of what you think all women would like (if such a thing could be possible), and you risk alienating your initial playerbase (or even worse, in your earnest desire to broaden your userbase, you've left the niche that made you singularly interesting).
Also, in a completely ironic turn of events, you are expressing outrage at being marginalised because CCP seek to introduce a wider audience, which is pretty much in total counterpoint to the first part of your post where you slap around people who feel outrage at being marginalised because Developers are seeking to be welcoming to a wider demographic. :3
Not saying I haven't been inconsistent with my views, it's entirely possible! But who did I slap around for feeling outrage at being marginalised? I'm all for the marginalised! Not sure at all what you meant there - who's being marginalised by asking for smarter, more complex and innovative games? People who aren't into having to think about stuff are always going to have purely twitched based stuff if they aren't interested in story and characters.
Did you mean the whole misogynistic backlash at any complaint of sexism in general, reaching crazy melodramatic proportions of rape and death threats towards any perceived threat? (Such as the fem freq videos or that bioware writer or whoever else) :o cause um. those outraged people aren't marginalised at all. They're pretty much the main demographic of every game everywhere whose outrage is entirely based on entitlement of that fact. 0.o;
The fact that she'd receive so much hate for even wanting to study tropes in games (which is a massive compliment to the gaming industry as a whole, btw, in basically saying it's a legit medium as much as film or literature to examine this stuff) is...frankly insane.
/scratches head
Something you said regarding Skyrim sort of jarred with me, I don't know how others felt about it, but you said that controversy regarding same-sex marriages in Skyrim was low because they were non-threatening. That sort of rubbed me up the wrong way because I find same-sex relationships and marriages unthreatening a posteriori.
Should they be threatening? How would that look?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbuPwVI4N8
Yah, no to the pillows :P
Ok - yeah, I didn't spell it out but will do so now -
The people likely to feel threatened and froth at the mouth at the overt presence of same sex marriage or anything outside of their comfort zone in 'their games' are likely to be the same people who go apeshit at the damsel in distress videos. The 'threatening' bit (to someone ALREADY homophobic, not me, which seemed to be your suggestion >.< I find the concept 'unthreatening a posteriori' also. at least, I think I do, as I'm not 100% on what 'a posteriori' means, but with you on the first bit) is when it's IN the narrative, challenging it directly, FORCING the player to have to deal with said concept IN the storyline thereby having to face their OWN set of associations; however formed, however erroneous.
Skyrim emphatically does not do this. Nor am I saying it necessarily should be in the forefront of the game, because that's not what Skyrim is about. Just that's my opinion of why people who may dislike the idea of games being more diverse also had no problem with Skyrim - because it's all very easy to ignore. And therefore non-threatening to people already predisposed to find it threatening. Who, as we've already established, is not you or me.
But tell me those people aren't vocally active and pervasive in the gaming community and I will respectfully disagree.
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I think we agree that we agree then, Kala.
:)
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Sexism goes both ways, but honestly the creators here don't seem to care.
Actually, I think in one of the videos (I would link you if I remembered which :P) she does point out that a lot of the tropes encapsulating male characters are also sexist stereotypes, but the difference is those tend to be based on adolescent power fantasies, whereas the tropes surrounding the female ones are more revolving around powerlessness - whether being directly being damsel'd, an adjunct to the male in one way or just for sexual objectification/decoration.
Though I'd totes agree that both extremes of those gender stereotypes are harmful.
There are plenty of rebuttal videos, but to be honest, largely that just seems to be more hate and "who does this woman think she is, talking shit about my games?!?!" etc etc. (or listing games featuring female characters as examples of positive representation and including things like Dead or Alive :P)
I don't agree with everything she says, mind, far from it. But some of it has been interesting - esp the link with retro games and nostalgia transferring old fashioned attitudes into subsequent titles. Hadn't considered that before. (though really I do think she simplifies/underestimates the role of irony at times).
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I think we agree that we agree then, Kala.
:)
Oh good :)
Apologies if I got a bit ranty with my caps lock :P
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Actually, I think in one of the videos (I would link you if I remembered which :P) she does point out that a lot of the tropes encapsulating male characters are also sexist stereotypes, but the difference is those tend to be based on adolescent power fantasies, whereas the tropes surrounding the female ones are more revolving around powerlessness - whether being directly being damsel'd, an adjunct to the male in one way or just for sexual objectification/decoration.
Maybe the one about women in the fridge.
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So, speaking of GTA V
"Gamers Attack Feminist Gamespot GTA review"
http://www.mweb.co.za/games/ViewNewsArticle/tabid/2549/Article/9150/Gamers-attack-feminist-Gamespot-GTA-V-review.aspx (http://www.mweb.co.za/games/ViewNewsArticle/tabid/2549/Article/9150/Gamers-attack-feminist-Gamespot-GTA-V-review.aspx)
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Scanned through the article referenced by that one yesterday. I was rather put off by the "live feed" of comments coming in on the bottom-right side at a constant rate.
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It's fucking GTA, I might as well spree kill male NPCs exclusively and call it misandry.
More seriously, I just started playing it, as well as 99% of gamers. Nobody will know what Carolyn Petit is talking about until a good while. I don't think it's fair to incite emotions when nobody has a fair judgement of the game's content at this point.
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I'm starting to like Gamespot. That's pretty good since IGN are all corrupted anyway.
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In my last job, I saw 5-11 year olds on their smartphones playing Minecraft. Both genders, even the pretty queen bee cusp-of-adolescence 11-year-olds, and no one batted an eyelid. In 10-15 years, these kids will be adults and will be the ones to shape the market. Hell, credit to CoD: Ghosts from the most testosterone- and 'murica-fueled franchise on the planet in reflecting the recent US military decision by including female soldiers in the line-up, something Battlefield and ARMA are behind on. I want to be able to enjoy my games in peace without some Internet armchair activists politicizing my purchase for YouTube channel hits. I grew up with video games being a boy's club, and a bottomfeeder boy's club at that. When I see cute little girls playing video games, something so farfetched in light of my upbringing, I know everything will work itself out over time. I do not think the Internet armchair activists are exposed to this, which is fair enough because their day job is presumably not working with kids.
As my late grandmother said, there are far more greater areas in the quest for gender equality than video games. This'll iron itself out, it's a first world problem. Female genital mutilation, sex trafficking, and slavery? That won't.
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Okay, trans-bashing aside (which is apparently what's going on with the attacks on the original reviewer), which is horrible and I do not support that one bit... I don't understand why it's misogynist. At least, not any more so than every other GTA game in history.
Instead of only playing as one gross man who commits crimes and swears a lot, you get to play as three different ones. My press kit says this is a narrative innovation. You can’t be a woman. I could be lazy and say this is because women do not commit crimes or swear and nor should they want to, but instead I’m going to come right out and say it’s misogynistic. What, you want to leave me death threats? Go for it!
I don't understand it. I actually honestly do not understand it. If the main character of GTAV was female, wouldn't the game still be derided as horribly misogynist? Do females have to be portrayed in ugly antagonist main character roles for a game to not be misogynist?
Sometimes it seems like you honestly can't do anything right when faced with the feminist agenda.
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More than one element of a work can be sexist.
For example, for Fat Princess, I can complain that none of the heroes are men and that the game treats the princess as an object.
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More than one element of a work can be sexist.
For example, for Fat Princess, I can complain that none of the heroes are men and that the game treats the princess as an object.
I suppose this is a thin arguement, but I don't think GTA should ever be held up to a moral measurement device except to see how low it's gotten with the latest sequel. There is never anything good about GTA. Nothing good about it except gameplay and graphics value.
From driving habits, to racism, to crime, to the dialogue used in the game.... nothing in that game should be learned and used in real life. Ever.
I just find it to be uselessly beating a dead horse to say GTA is sexist. Yes. It's obvious. We know.
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the pretty queen bee cusp-of-adolescence 11-year-olds
What is it about that phrasing that seems a little off to me?
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So, speaking of GTA V
"Gamers Attack Feminist Gamespot GTA review"
http://www.mweb.co.za/games/ViewNewsArticle/tabid/2549/Article/9150/Gamers-attack-feminist-Gamespot-GTA-V-review.aspx (http://www.mweb.co.za/games/ViewNewsArticle/tabid/2549/Article/9150/Gamers-attack-feminist-Gamespot-GTA-V-review.aspx)
To quote TotalBiscuit in his comments on this... "To those, the cancer of the so-called gaming community, I do firmly say 'fuck off'."
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I don't understand it. I actually honestly do not understand it. If the main character of GTAV was female, wouldn't the game still be derided as horribly misogynist? Do females have to be portrayed in ugly antagonist main character roles for a game to not be misogynist?
Sometimes it seems like you honestly can't do anything right when faced with the feminist agenda.
I can't really fault anyone for thinking this, with all the fur flying, but it's a bit of a shame. At its core, "the feminist agenda" boils down to wanting to see 1) women included, 2) as actual people, on a somewhat equal footing with the rest of the characters in the piece, instead of in-jokes, caricatures, or sex objects. That doesn't seem unreasonable on the face of it.
I just find it to be uselessly beating a dead horse to say GTA is sexist. Yes. It's obvious. We know.
It's been pointed out several times before, yes, but the notion of letting women into the treehouse in a real way reducing dudebros to inchoate, sputtering rage for want of a sensible counterargument is kind of a new thing. Previously it would've just gone largely ignored. I'd almost call it progress!
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It's fucking GTA, I might as well spree kill male NPCs exclusively and call it misandry.
Not the issue. Anyone can be killed in GTA regardless of simulated gender. The issue is how women are portrayed and simulated outside of being murdered. And even that is missing the point of WHY I posted it here.
Put aside the actual game for a minute, and actually examine how some people reacted when someone, a woman no less, dared to criticise "their" game for slightly erring on the critical side on the topic of fair representation of gender. I mean, she scored it as low as 9 out of 10! In all my years...
And lo, the mists clear and you see the actual issue of importance.
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What about African Americans? They're again portrayed as gangbanging vermin. Additionally, I'm not sure of any Hollywood crime films that have female protagonists who swear and murder like the men do. I say the hell with Carolyn Petite, as well as everyone who went for personal over critical attacks.
the pretty queen bee cusp-of-adolescence 11-year-olds
What is it about that phrasing that seems a little off to me?
It's to illustrate that these aren't "niche" girls playing video games, but the types who are going to be the alphas in secondary school. This statement is horribly counter-progressive in adhering to the cruel teen hierarchy, but certainly I did not see the "cool' girls in my high school be avid gamers. Once that happens, or rather in the process of that coming about, we'll see changes in game storytelling, particularly if these children decide to go into development.
What do people want anyway? For the government to regulate the creative process? For a feminist gaming council to be established to pick out games in some constitutional court? This has to be a bottom up thing, which will come in time as illustrated.
What happened to stuff that actually consciously demeaned, discriminated, and denigrated women anyway? This is all thought police territory. I draw three characters and none of them are female and then I'm sexist.
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What do people want anyway? For the government to regulate the creative process? For a feminist gaming council to be established to pick out games in some constitutional court? [..] This is all thought police territory.
Mostly, they want their concerns to be heard. Preferably without getting death threats in return. That's it.
Nobody's contesting Rockstar's freedom to make any damned game they want. It's just that they don't like it, for a few specific reasons, and they're stating them. Maybe so people will pick up on the idea that there's a growing demand for games suitable to their tastes. You know, a bottom-up sort of thing.
Think about it. Why, when criticising games, is "the combat is clunky" or "the graphics look like they're PS2 era" or "the plot was an incoherent mess" fair criticism, but "the cast was the usual testosterone fantasy sausage fest" suddenly "thought police territory?"
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What do people want anyway? For the government to regulate the creative process? For a feminist gaming council to be established to pick out games in some constitutional court? [..] This is all thought police territory.
Mostly, they want their concerns to be heard. Preferably without getting death threats in return. That's it.
Nobody's contesting Rockstar's freedom to make any damned game they want. It's just that they don't like it, for a few specific reasons, and they're stating them. Maybe so people will pick up on the idea that there's a growing demand for games suitable to their tastes. You know, a bottom-up sort of thing.
Think about it. Why, when criticising games, is "the combat is clunky" or "the graphics look like they're PS2 era" or "the plot was an incoherent mess" fair criticism, but "the cast was the usual testosterone fantasy sausage fest" suddenly "thought police territory?"
This, pretty much.
We're in an age where equality and respect are talked about but oh so rarely put into action, and when they are put into action, there is usually an exclusion. It is only through grass roots critique and drum-banging that these issues will continue to be heard.
Is it an awkward, inconvenient truth? Yes. Are you bad for enjoying a game that some may slate as misogynistic machismo? If you're not treating it as a life lesson - then no. But people, especially fringe and minority groups, can finally express themselves - no matter how awkwardly, stridently or loudly. This is a start and a very good thing for the health of our collective social conscience. If not for these voices, what would drive change?
Annoying, uncomfortable and as incorrect as these opinions may sometimes seem, or even be, they are exactly that - opinions. Each of us should be exposed to as many as possible in our lives, and given the chance to pick, choose and construct our understanding of our own social conscience. Anything less is a slight not only against minority groups, but against your potential as a reasonable, considerate individual.
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I can go with the desire to have the concerns heard, which is fair enough. There's a lot of male developers though, and they genuinely may not want to write female protagonists on the fear that they'd get it wrong, rather than 'I hate women'. It's the statement that Katrina quoted though.
You can’t be a woman. I could be lazy and say this is because women do not commit crimes or swear and nor should they want to, but instead I’m going to come right out and say it’s misogynistic. What, you want to leave me death threats? Go for it! Games are about feeling powerful, and about you getting your way!
The inability to play female characters is considered by Leigh Alexander to be 'misogynistic', which is disingenuous and outright nonsensical. It's thought police territory because it strays into the area of political overcorrectness, as we've witnessed with ethnicity. It forces people to abide by some doctrine in the same light as with racial sensitivity; "Careful how you portray this black person! We might offend them!" etc. In fact, Leigh Alexander's review (http://leighalexander.net/review-of-gta-v/) really comes across as blatantly disingenuous and arrogant.
People like Leigh Alexander come across as unreasonable, which causes the other side to be unreasonable as well. Mind, it's been so long into the debate that it's hard to tell who was unreasonable first EDIT: Who am I kidding, I think we know whose side it was. But by this point, it's exhausting. I know I don't want to side with the "anti-"feminist crowd because of all the misogyny and immaturity, but at the same time, Leigh Alexander does not portray a side I want to sympathize with.
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In fact, Leigh Alexander's review (http://leighalexander.net/review-of-gta-v/) really comes across as blatantly disingenuous and arrogant.
Mh'yes, it might've seemed a little disingenuous. That's because it's satire.
EDIT: ALSO it is quite catchy set to music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HZ21Lsw5WE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HZ21Lsw5WE)
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What about African Americans? They're again portrayed as gangbanging vermin. Additionally, I'm not sure of any Hollywood crime films that have female protagonists who swear and murder like the men do. I say the hell with Carolyn Petite, as well as everyone who went for personal over critical attacks.
the pretty queen bee cusp-of-adolescence 11-year-olds
What is it about that phrasing that seems a little off to me?
It's to illustrate that these aren't "niche" girls playing video games, but the types who are going to be the alphas in secondary school. This statement is horribly counter-progressive in adhering to the cruel teen hierarchy, but certainly I did not see the "cool' girls in my high school be avid gamers. Once that happens, or rather in the process of that coming about, we'll see changes in game storytelling, particularly if these children decide to go into development.
These girls still play to the games suffering from the issues at hand. They will not learn from it, so your optimism is not totally shared. I think it will evolve eventually, but only as a whole if the global problems about sexism are solved, from important stuff like sexual abuse to little things like video games and cinema.
Add to that that the fact that these media are so pervasive in our lives that they act as learning and identifying material for our children as well.
I can go with the desire to have the concerns heard, which is fair enough. There's a lot of male developers though, and they genuinely may not want to write female protagonists on the fear that they'd get it wrong, rather than 'I hate women'. It's the statement that Katrina quoted though.
You can still hire female writers at times. They exist.
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1. Writers have FUCK ALL to do with anything. By the time a writer wanders anywhere near the creative process pretty much 95% of the game mechanics have been designed and, in most games, the story is pretty much a nicely dressed up mechanic itself - for deciding what assets get revealed when.
2. If the game is a male power fantasy, why is it surprising that most of the cast is male? In point of fact just about EVERY character in a GTA game is a horrifically negative stereotype. I agree female characters in a GTA game tend to be more obviously and explicitly vulnerable and exploited, but male stereotypes are usually equally powerless - trapped in the drug business, no education, poverty etc.
3. Someone made a point that niche and outlier demographics are the ones making their voices heard. As a Developer I only ever chased niceh and outlier demographics when I couldn't appeal to the mainstream. The mainstream is where the money is. That's not to say that you can't make money from properly targetting a niche demographic - it's just that games like GTA can't afford to. Sorry - this one goes out to the Douchebros.
4. The Bechel test. Hollywood can't pass it 90% of the time - and they ONLY have to deliver characterisation and story. Games see those two as secondary concerns at best.
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In fact, Leigh Alexander's review (http://leighalexander.net/review-of-gta-v/) really comes across as blatantly disingenuous and arrogant.
Mh'yes, it might've seemed a little disingenuous. That's because it's satire.
EDIT: ALSO it is quite catchy set to music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HZ21Lsw5WE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HZ21Lsw5WE)
You'd think the point where explicitly says that she hasn't played the game might clue people in. Or the part where she calls it a 'cultural revolution' and gives it a 9.7 out of 10.
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Honestly, as a Brit, I'm more than a little embarrassed I didn't pick out the satire. Granted, American satire seems to be very...well, it lacks a subtlety, shall we say.
Dropping Leigh Alexander then, GTAV seems like a non-issue in the greater argument, for reasons brought up. The third character you play is so grotesque and psychopathic, that criticizing the game for misogyny of all things is a bit of a misappropriation of priorities. Seriously, the character of Trevor is flatout insane (and well-written for that reason).
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"If the game is a male power fantasy, why is it surprising that most of the cast is male? In point of fact just about EVERY character in a GTA game is a horrifically negative stereotype."
Not trying to suggest the game was lacking in stereotypes or anything (I think it's deliberately interacting with a lot of stereotypes) but nonetheless, I found Niko Bellic a compelling and sympathetic character; despite the violent thuggery.
(the scene where he's trying to get Roman to shut up as everything he says is more likely to get him shot, which he duly does, was comedy worthy of The Sopranos, in my opinion - the relationship between those two characters was absolute gold)
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Honestly, as a Brit, I'm more than a little embarrassed I didn't pick out the satire. Granted, American satire seems to be very...well, it lacks a subtlety, shall we say.
If it were subtle, most people in America wouldn't get it. Gotta cater to the lowest common denominator of your intended audience.
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Honestly, as a Brit, I'm more than a little embarrassed I didn't pick out the satire. Granted, American satire seems to be very...well, it lacks a subtlety, shall we say.
If it were subtle, most people in America wouldn't get it. Gotta cater to the lowest common denominator of your intended audience.
The frequency with which articles from The Onion are taken seriously is embarassing.
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Honestly, as a Brit, I'm more than a little embarrassed I didn't pick out the satire. Granted, American satire seems to be very...well, it lacks a subtlety, shall we say.
Missing the subtle satire and then saying you missed the satire because its not subtle enough lacks logic.
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In my last job, I saw 5-11 year olds on their smartphones playing Minecraft. Both genders, even the pretty queen bee cusp-of-adolescence 11-year-olds, and no one batted an eyelid. In 10-15 years, these kids will be adults and will be the ones to shape the market. Hell, credit to CoD: Ghosts from the most testosterone- and 'murica-fueled franchise on the planet in reflecting the recent US military decision by including female soldiers in the line-up, something Battlefield and ARMA are behind on. I want to be able to enjoy my games in peace without some Internet armchair activists politicizing my purchase for YouTube channel hits. I grew up with video games being a boy's club, and a bottomfeeder boy's club at that. When I see cute little girls playing video games, something so farfetched in light of my upbringing, I know everything will work itself out over time. I do not think the Internet armchair activists are exposed to this, which is fair enough because their day job is presumably not working with kids.
As my late grandmother said, there are far more greater areas in the quest for gender equality than video games. This'll iron itself out, it's a first world problem. Female genital mutilation, sex trafficking, and slavery? That won't.
Eeeh...I agree and disagree here.
I do agree that it's a problem that will sort itself out - though maybe that process can be sped up, who knows.
The example in the eve-o forums I posted earlier - that was one of my reactions, that by saying "how can we change the game to appeal to women?" was asking the wrong questions. Seemed to me that the reason for there being less women than men was simply that women don't play games as much. Solve that wider problem first - which will eventually (hopefully) happen as time goes on. Gaming as a hobby has social stigma. For women, that's twofold. Some guys really don't like what they perceive as muscling in on their hobby and most of the women I know will openly describe gaming as sad or pathetic, something to be grown out of, definitely a male thing to be disdained, eyes rolled at or grimly tolerated.
But...
There are more women and more people gaming than previously, I suspect - it has wider appeal and is bigger business. Maybe all those facebook games will act as a gateway drug. I dunno. But the walls to the exclusive kingdom are clearly beginning to crumble, or there wouldn't be such a massive goddamn backlash at the idea of a) women gamers and b) women gamers who have the temerity to express opinions on the games they play. (and appears to be the same in other realms of geekery, such as comics and cosplay re:backlashes)
There's very much the MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls syndrome too. Some people are completely fine, others treat you like you are the first female they've ever encountered in their lives, others claim you cannot possibly exist due to the aforementioned rule, and if you try to insist that you actually do, well, you're obviously an attention whore. So there's a lot of weird feelings and issues surrounding the idea of wimminz in games that do, p'raps, create barriers to entry if you aren't thick skinned or are unprepared for the wall of idiocy you may encounter.
Though there's also social stigma for playing games as an adult, regardless. It's either considered as something for kids (despite age labels on adult titles) or for students before they start becoming a 'proper' adult. I once played some free-online grindfest and got the usual a/s/l tripe. The kid was 12 or 13 and wondering why I was there - shouldn't I be, like, doing more important things? furthering my career, getting a mortgage, and I'm not married yet? :| I think I was about 25 at the time /o\
Personally, I see gaming as just another type of media - I would happily discuss games in the same way as books or films; but I'm aware that games are both unfairly denigrated, yet also has a lot of potential that we haven't yet tapped. At least, I hope so. Because being part of the action in such a visceral way, having a direct role in things, is kind of a unique aspect to gaming. It's interesting. Especially when turned to MMOs because then you have the social element as well (you don't have one player interacting with a storyline and a gameworld, you have many players interacting with a storyline and a gameworld and eachother). Though I will admit to being somewhat jaded re: MMOs :evil:
Which leads to the bit where I disagree with you.
As seeing gaming as another type of media, I'm interested in media criticism; discussion around something I enjoy, what the story is about, what perceptions people may have, how it compares to other things, what it's doing that might be novel or innovative. What I liked or disliked, what other people liked or disliked, etc etc etc.
Gender theory, queer theory, feminist theory - whatevers, it's all media criticism and can all come into that if relevant. Which, p'raps, sometimes it isn't, depending. But discussion certainly around these topics certainly isn't bad. Though sometimes things will get particularly knee-jerk which is unhelpful, and sometimes certain things stop being 'a way in' to a discussion or debate and just become blinkered or one-track. It's great to talk about media and be critical of it though, because it's what we're freely enjoying and consuming. I'm (of course) not saying that we're all simple knuckle-draggers who will copy anything they see, or latent psychopaths whose violent video game tipped them over the edge and into a real-life killing spree. But it still probably shouldn't be an entirely passive process; at least not all the time. I don't think that's unimportant.
I do see what you're saying about the thought police, as I tend to see the above arguments (knuckle-draggers and psychopaths) as being based almost entirely on ignorance and fear, and that the "save the children" argument with regards to video games tends to lead to games for adults being blamed. Once something is feared and blamed, it becomes easy to censor it. I am vehemently against censoring creative media for adults.
That said. Wanting to discuss, reasonably and rationally, problematic aspects of a piece of media is not one step away from censoring it. Being critical of something doesn't mean you can't enjoy it, just that you're questioning and interpreting rather than passively receiving - which is a good thing in all media; books, films, advertising, games - whatevers. Also it's interesting as a kind of cultural barometer; why are certain things being represented a certain way in a specific media? It doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's a social and cultural artefact - it's commentary as well as what's being commented on.
And obviously you can debate the importance.
And sure, you can say that other gender issues are more important or certainly more urgent, such as what you list. (I've also heard the argument that it would be more useful to concentrate on more important issues like shelters for victims of domestic violence) though I'd argue that, if you feel the need, you can be active on those issues and discuss how women are portrayed in the media that we create, consume and reflect. It's not necessarily an either/or (personally I think it's definitely not an either/or) There's lots of interesting things media suggests about society (such as guns OK, sex taboo, as a random example).
Moving on to something completely different (because I don't want to create another reply for it)
I suppose this is a thin arguement, but I don't think GTA should ever be held up to a moral measurement device except to see how low it's gotten with the latest sequel. There is never anything good about GTA. Nothing good about it except gameplay and graphics value.
From driving habits, to racism, to crime, to the dialogue used in the game.... nothing in that game should be learned and used in real life. Ever.
I just find it to be uselessly beating a dead horse to say GTA is sexist. Yes. It's obvious. We know.
I absolutely agree with it being redundant to hold GTA up to a moral measurement.
Not trying to make a false analogy, but just relaying the connections in my head, reading the arguments for banninating porn I actually saw a comment in response to a newspaper article which was apparently irony-free and suggesting that porn was a bad role model for our children.
:!:
:bash:
Porn is not supposed to be a role model for your children. It serves an entirely different purpose.
Thing with GTA is, maybe less so with the others, but with GTA 4 I often found it humorous and well-written. In some ways it reminded me of The Sopranos due to this. So I kind of thought a lot of it was tongue-in-cheek and well-established within (and responding to) an already defined genre.
I personally feel the thing with representations and tropes is that you see them over and over again you see a pattern that reinforces itself. Which is absolutely fair enough, as certain trends are worryingly endemic. But...It's important to take things within it's own context too, on a case-by-case. Maybe sometimes people are doing an entirely straight reading of something and (correctly) identifying "that's sexist!" but not considering that an entirely straight reading wasn't what it was going for.
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47% of the gaming population are women, so not a minority. Though this does not say how much time they spend compared to men, nor which kind of games they favor.
Being a game dev myself, I could not ask more to see more women in the industry. Just 2 programmer women on a team of 35 devs is ridiculously low, but still something for a studio dealing in "hardcore" gaming, which is rather telling.
Video games are like cinema, or whatever tied to culture and entertainment. They have to be subject to critics, and I will certainly not deprive myself to do that eagerly, because culture in general, not just video games, is in such a state that it's rather frightening.
Video games, are a very young media that is still said to be in its teenage years, follows the exact same path than cinema did. Criticized and highly despised at the beginning, and then eventually carving its place in the society as culture, like all new things (in any case, video games are just the legacy of things that go back to prehistory : storytelling, roleplaying, and strategy games). The question is, when will video games eventually mature and become adult ? And is cinema adult enough to begin with ? For that precise reason, being critical, especially on sex equality in games, is important.
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Not trying to make a false analogy, but just relaying the connections in my head, reading the arguments for banninating porn I actually saw a comment in response to a newspaper article which was apparently irony-free and suggesting that porn was a bad role model for our children.
:!:
:bash:
Porn is not supposed to be a role model for your children. It serves an entirely different purpose.
I think you're underselling porn here.
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47% of the gaming population are women, so not a minority. Though this does not say how much time they spend compared to men, nor which kind of games they favor.
I question that statistic. Perhaps as a very low level 'people who have bought a game or played a game in their life' it is true, but I'd be more interested in percentage of dollars spent against gender.
And yes, I think we need to go back to the various genres and ask questions about gender demographics.
Being a game dev myself, I could not ask more to see more women in the industry. Just 2 programmer women on a team of 35 devs is ridiculously low, but still something for a studio dealing in "hardcore" gaming, which is rather telling.
What? Where are all your female artists and animators?
The question is, when will video games eventually mature and become adult ? And is cinema adult enough to begin with ? For that precise reason, being critical, especially on sex equality in games, is important.
None of this years summer blockbusters passed the Bechel test, I think. I'm actually not sure that the two (!) female characters in the new Star Wars film were even onscreen at the same time.
Games are FAR from the only medium with issues - they still talk about whether enough BOOKS in the mainstream pass the Bechel test, and we've had the printed word since Martin Luther!
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What? Where are all your female artists and animators?
We are 4-5 artists max. We had one in internship though. Even when I was still at studies a year ago, there were not many females, be it for artists, game designers, sound designer, producers, or programmers. 3 to 52 for my year, and 12 for 45 in the previous one. I would say the average was around 1 for 6 or something.
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I think we came close to hitting 60:40 male to female in our art department. It's always been the area with the most women, in my experience.
This was a team of.... One hundred and forty, I think.
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I think you're underselling porn here.
Porn should be free! :P
None of this years summer blockbusters passed the Bechel test, I think.
Doesn't surprise me. Summer blockbusters tend to be fairly mindless, though. I'd take something by Studio Ghibli (as an example) over a hollywood blockbuster, in all sorts of ways.
This is kind of interesting, though, about Pacific Rim (which I haven't seen but sounds interesting)
http://www.dailydot.com/fandom/mako-mori-test-bechdel-pacific-rim/ (http://www.dailydot.com/fandom/mako-mori-test-bechdel-pacific-rim/)
I like the director very much (Pan's Labyrinth!) and don't know if the film counts as a blockbuster or not (as not seen it) but interesting article about how it fails the Bechdel test vs "her character is neither sexually objectified nor given a narrative arc that revolves around a man" and whether or not the Bechdel test should always be applicable.
Games are FAR from the only medium with issues - they still talk about whether enough BOOKS in the mainstream pass the Bechel test, and we've had the printed word since Martin Luther!
Certainly. Though that's a bad thing; one medium with issues would be better :P But then, that goes back to the media-creating-and-reflecting-society bit - in light of that it would be surprising for the problem to be isolated, as it's our society in general. Games, along with comics, seem to have the worst issues though, as much in the communities surrounding the media as the product itself.
I think that's probably due to a few things...maybe due to the relationship with censorship; which cinema and books suffer with themselves, ofc, but comics and games (wrongly, imo) get so associated with children that they get caught up in controversy easier which, in turn, makes the communities hyper-defensive of them and close ranks. One theory, anyways. And geeky pursuits have been considered traditionally male, whereas books and cinema less so (though literature and the theatre were once). Some seem to resent intrusion into a space they see as (however erroneously) uniquely their own.
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I like the director very much (Pan's Labyrinth!) and don't know if the film counts as a blockbuster or not (as not seen it) but interesting article about how it fails the Bechdel test vs "her character is neither sexually objectified nor given a narrative arc that revolves around a man" and whether or not the Bechdel test should always be applicable.
As a little side note: the Bechdel test wasn't ever intended to be a pass/fail test for a single movie. It's more of a consciousness raiser - it shows how strangely rare it is for movies, in aggregate, to show something as basic as two women talking about something.
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See, when people say; "But that's not how it is in real life, bro!", this pertaining remember, to a virtual make-believe world...
What they're actually saying is "STOP TOUCHING MY THINGS, HOW DARE YOU SAY BAD STUFF ABOUT MY THINGS!"
:s
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Also before anyone tries to call me on the court, I'm playing GTA and it's fucking amazing so far.
See that's the thing people need to get into their heads; being not just feminist but anywhere at all inclined to vague equality doesn't mean you have to be some bra-burning-vegan-hippy-killjoy.
Instead of footstamping and whining in some intellectual daily, most people just say, "You know what'd be cool? More good female characters."
Which is why i still can't ascribe any motive other than selfish childishness to the gamers tying their panties in a twist over the review or people who share the sentiment.
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See that's the thing people need to get into their heads; being not just feminist but anywhere at all inclined to vague equality doesn't mean you have to be some bra-burning-vegan-hippy-killjoy.
Instead of footstamping and whining in some intellectual daily, most people just say, "You know what'd be cool? More good female characters."
Which is why i still can't ascribe any motive other than selfish childishness to the gamers tying their panties in a twist over the review or people who share the sentiment.
Is this specific to GTA or in general? (I wondered if it was GTA specific due to your first bit and "the review")
Regarding GTA my stance is - it's an adult game, it's meant to represent criminals, thuggery, mobsters etc and the world they inhabit and is not supposed to be a role model to anyone. It's riffing off a genre that has its own expectations. Which is not to say someone can't find problems with it, just that I don't. (or haven't with the previous titles anyways, haven't got the new one)
I think a lot of people are annoyed that, even when you get the mechanic to select a protagonist, none of them are female. Kind of like a lot of people seemed miffed that the next incarnation of the Doctor in Doctor Who won't be female. I'm not really fussed by either for a few reasons... which I won't go into as will take another mammoth post.
But in general, I think it's totally fine to muse quietly "You know what'd be cool? More good female characters" (tho obviously 'good' is subjective; to some that might be in aesthetics, attitude, to others that means credible) but another aspect to all this is, while it's more inclusive to stick a load of playable female protagonists into games, it's more treating the symptom of the problem. It's also fine to question how female characters are already represented and why. Or why there may be a comparative lack of 'good' female characters in the first place.
It doesn't hurt anyone to ask those questions. It certainly doesn't hurt gaming.
I think there's a lot of knee-jerk sentiments going around from all sides - some of that does seem to be being a 'killjoy' I won't entirely disagree. I think sometimes things can get obscured as questioning things seems to get confused with censoring them (oddly), and a lot of criticism re: female characters can come across as puritanical and/or overly PC. That said, there's a vast amount of sexist douchebaggery, immaturity and entitlement going on as well so....yeah.
The 'selfishness' from all sides is likely to come from the fact that gamers all love their hobby; and some find it extremely wearying that their hobby has became politicised and caught up in endless debates, and others find it extremely wearying that they're being consistently marginalised within the hobby they enjoy. Everyone's selfish, everyone's tired but I wonder if everyone can agree that gaming as a medium needs to grow up a bit and we can all benefit from more quality innovative games? Maybe simplistic but that seems like 'the solution' to me.