Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Norrin Ellis on 31 May 2013, 00:49
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People coming. People going. People upset about the comings and goings and the reasons behind them. It's all very dramatic, and it all seems to stem from the notion of the community. A single, monolithic RP community. It's a gated community, and if the gatekeepers don't like you, you aren't allowed in. If you slip by and the other residents don't like you, you're thrown out or, at the very least, made to feel unwelcome until you leave.
I'd encourage everyone to pause a moment and consider their own ideal community. Does it exist in EVE? Why not build it yourself? Rather than try to be a member of the community, why not seek out or create a community that is more to your liking? Your community, perhaps.
Find the folks you like and invite them to play in your community. No, it probably won't be as densely populated as the community, and perhaps some of the gatekeepers and overlords of the community will do whatever they can to discourage others from giving your community a fair shake, but that's the nature of competition in a free market of ideas (or of RP communities). Hell, you can be a member of as many communities as you like. Pick and choose the ones that suit you best and integrate yourself into them to whatever degree makes you comfortable.
If you really believe that the veteran elitists who form the central committee of the community are so terrible, then why keep trying to fit into their domain? Build your own castle next door. Declare war or be a peaceful neighbor. However you choose to do it, you owe it to yourself to carve out an environment that's conducive to your enjoyment, whether that's with an established community or a new one that you create. (Personally, I don't make any effort to hide the fact that I can't stand the self-appointed gatekeepers of the community, and I know most of 'em don't like me much, either. I don't play with them. Problem solved.)
Anyhow, my point is that we're all ultimately responsible for our own fun in EVE. Don't like the available choices? Create new ones. There's a far wider range of options than a single RP community.
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Very well said.
Competition.
It is the way of EVE.
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True; there is a platitude of RP communities for people to get involved with. Many of us play social pariahs (most pirate faction loyalists with a few notable exceptions for a start) and get along just fine.
That said this isn't a perfect fix. The so-called 'monolithic' RP community perception holds some significance; the OOC/Summit community acts as a gateway in many instances to the RP scene as a whole. It's all well and good to say 'if you feel excluded, stake out your own' but the fact is that the bad attitude of some members of this community has a knock-on effect on everyone else. Whereas many fresh faces would fit in elsewhere they are often dissuaded before they get the chance to their options.
The issue may more lie in the lack of visibility for alternatives.
Just as a point of note, I'm sure the timing of this thread with the events surrounding Cynthia isn't a coincidence. CG did make their own little community. We're a friendly little family. It was drama from outside that got to CG.
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Well said Norrin. I consider myself to be a part of several distinct communities already - the landscape really is far more diverse than a single monolithic entity.
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Seriously.
When are people going to figure this out?
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I'd encourage everyone to pause a moment and consider their own ideal community. Does it exist in EVE? Why not build it yourself? Rather than try to be a member of the community, why not seek out or create a community that is more to your liking? Your community, perhaps.
To answer your questions, I'll use an analogy.
I have an ideal woman. If I spent my time attempting to find her or create her, I'd end up overlooking all the awesome women who don't fit that ideal.
Humanity is messy. It's imperfect. The communities it creates are messy and imperfect.
That's awesome.
You can drive yourself mad attempting to create an ideal community. It's much better to learn to love the community you're part of and to work to make it a fun place for you and your buddies than it is to seek after an ideal.
PS: And I'm not sure my ideal community would include someone like me.
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I like it. Why strive to fit into a community that you don't like? Do your own RP thing with your own friends :) It's what I do.
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I thought this is what happens normally?
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I thought this is what happens normally?
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Yeah Norrin's totally right on this.
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I attach a diagram
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I don't about this being THE community. Like another poster said, it's more of an entry level place for RP for new people (gotta start somewhere). Kind of like a starter corp....kind of.
But I think people don't try to make other communities because people just tend to gravitate to OOC and Summit because there's so many people there already. Why would they go to yours? But then again, if amount doesn't matter as opposed to who specifically is in your own community...then meh.
Personally, I stay because of the numbers. More people, more conversation, variety of conversation, etc. Anslo sucks at starting topics ICly and OOCly I'm rarely in the mood to get into a deep discussion on the finer parts of emergent electronic evolutionary trends (yes I just pulled that RIGHT out at my ass at 210 MPH).
But that's IC. OOCly, I like the people despite IC problems or arguments. For instance, Zanzi is a horrible, evil Sansha toaster IC. OOC, no one else has ever made me laugh so damn much at the most innocuous things. ICly, Anslo hates Silas. OOCly, Silas is an intelligent person with some good insight. There's more examples but meh, too many to list. Bottom line, they're all there in one place, so I stick around to be able to talk to 'em.
But that's just me....man why do I feel the need to blab all this? Sorry for the rant/pontification :oops:
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I've refined that, Lou.
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I've refined that, Lou.
It's worth noting that "DERP" is an acronym for "Dat EVE RP".
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And I thought it had something to do with ERP. :oops:
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I like it. Why strive to fit into a community that you don't like? Do your own RP thing with your own friends :) It's what I do.
It's basically what everyone does. The myth that we are all some huge mono-group is false: everyone RP's different groups and factions and ideas and no-one who even RP as part of any one identified party do so in the same way. The one and only common identifier is that everyone that RP do indeed RP. It's not our job to tell anyone with the widely distributed RP-sticker that they can/can't do X Y Z, but if people do things that cause us to face-palm allot, we can, utilizing our right to free speech, tell them this.
How we do so is up to us. It would likely be preffered if we managed to be a little bit civil about it at least, but every individual can decide if they even bother. Likewise everyone who does RP can chose for themselves how they do so and as part of what group, if any. Seeking advice and clarification on the unknown/unclear bits is also considered a smart move - why make a bunch of common errors if it's avoidable by asking others who may be wise from previous injury already? People already do that for EVE in general, and any other game/job/position/thing you can imagine anywhere else.
The monolithic community is a myth, an unconfirmed rumor. There is only RP'ers, what and who they RP, and everyone else who RP at all, and the interaction, if any, between them. As an example, me and my toon does sparsely little interaction these days, but I'm still as much a RP'er as the most involved person and toon with the biggest social web you can get.
Creating 'your own' community is impossible. All you can do is RP as you want with the people you want, depending on who you end up RP'ing with in what way, good, bad, indifferent, depends on what form you little 'community inside the community' holds.
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I agree only to some extent. Which means you better leave and build your own when it appears that you share close to nothing with the community already in place. Of course, you will have to fight like hell to carve your own place with very pervasive/monopolies like Summit/OOC. But why not.
However +1 to what Makkal said. I believe more in the "democratic" side of communities than in their "capitalistic" side. I can have disagreements, being discontent about things here and there, but still really enjoying the community.
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Most RPers I find in lowsec/null are furiously RPing at people (amid autocannon fire and explosions), and are either sneered at by the lolsrsbsnz gamers or are met with cautious counter-RPing. I am content with this.
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cautious counter-RPing.
I really like it when this happens, and I don't mind how inept the attempts are. Not because I think "oooh, we'll gain an RPer", but just because I find the lolRPer thing really annoying, and every time this little thing happens, I think it pushes a tiny bit of that away.
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I have always thought the Summit was a little ridiculous anyway...Svetlana, at least, has no interest with socializing with many of the reprobates that frequent the place; while she might be able to handle meeting some of the Gallente or Minmatar loyalists in a neutral setting and offer them some grudging respect, the more...criminal types, or even independent types, she sees as a dangerous threat to the order of the cluster.
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cautious counter-RPing.
I really like it when this happens, and I don't mind how inept the attempts are. Not because I think "oooh, we'll gain an RPer", but just because I find the lolRPer thing really annoying, and every time this little thing happens, I think it pushes a tiny bit of that away.
It's always surprised me how many people will respond IC to comments in local or suchlike.
Back when I was pirating, ransoms attempts where I got someone who otherwise wouldn't have likely given a damn about RP to respond in character were the best ones, even when I got a killmail rather than ISK.
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cautious counter-RPing.
I really like it when this happens, and I don't mind how inept the attempts are. Not because I think "oooh, we'll gain an RPer", but just because I find the lolRPer thing really annoying, and every time this little thing happens, I think it pushes a tiny bit of that away.
It's always surprised me how many people will respond IC to comments in local or suchlike.
Back when I was pirating, ransoms attempts where I got someone who otherwise wouldn't have likely given a damn about RP to respond in character were the best ones, even when I got a killmail rather than ISK.
No one RP'd back at me when I was in Aduro. Caught a Tengu, attempted RP style ransom. Got called a @#$% $@&@ @#%^@$& who has no real life instead.
Good times.
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No one RP'd back at me when I was in Aduro. Caught a Tengu, attempted RP style ransom. Got called a @#$% $@&@ @#%^@$& who has no real life instead.
Good times.
Aduro
I think that was your problem right there. :lol:
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No one RP'd back at me when I was in Aduro. Caught a Tengu, attempted RP style ransom. Got called a @#$% $@&@ @#%^@$& who has no real life instead.
Good times.
Aduro
I think that was your problem right there. :lol:
TBH Aduro was the happiest time of my Eve career. No hard core strict BS. We derped into pvp hard and still won. I liked it alot.
Also the Tengu pilot was the mad one, not other Aduro folks.
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It might've been fun for you, but the wider public perception of Aduro is what I was referring to. We're getting off-topic. :|
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It might've been fun for you, but the wider public perception of Aduro is what I was referring to. We're getting off-topic. :|
Not necessarily. Perception of oneself from the community at large may also hinder other communities being created due to a sense of lacking ability. Could be vice versa though. It's not as simple as 'I don't like it here, I'm making my own community' for some people. Some take criticism (harsh criticism) as a sign that they just fail and should forget it. I'm not saying it's the fault of the larger community, the person needs to be able to take criticism. But harsh criticism should be curbed. It's not constructive.
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It might've been fun for you, but the wider public perception of Aduro is what I was referring to. We're getting off-topic. :|
During my early days of pvp in MXD, I flew alongside Aduro Protocol. They were fun folks, Siigari was an eccentric fellow who bought and lost the first ever Proteus on TQ. Almost joined them but something about Andy's passion and Faust's sneering sarcasm won me over.
MXD was a less than reputable entity, even viewed as a joke among the larger community, but despite all that it is still the best times I have had in this game. I wish often that I could go back to those days. You make your own friends, and own community. MXD will always have special place in my cynical heart along with Andy and Faust. No matter how shit times got in EVE they've always had my back.
This walk down the memory lane has a point and it is that, fuck everybody else and fuck the community, don't let other people decide or dictate who you play with and makes friend with.
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If your drama creates fourteen backstage pages of drama, the problem isn't the community.
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Anslo, Vince: You both appear to be either misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I was saying.
I was saying that the perception of Aduro from the outside may have played into the Tengu pilot's response of spewing a series of random number-row characters at Anslo beyond the obvious "you caught my dumb, inattentive ass in lowsec, so fuck you."
The way you guys perceive your groups is not what will determine or guide interactions or perceptions from outside parties. You could all be the nicest and funniest bunch of people to play EVE with in the world, but if that isn't the perception held by people outside of your immediate blue-list, it isn't going to be the perception that they bring to the table when they interact with you.
I flew with Aduro a few times too and didn't have anything but a blast, for the record. :p
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Anslo, Vince: You both appear to be either misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I was saying.
I was saying that the perception of Aduro from the outside may have played into the Tengu pilot's response of spewing a series of random number-row characters at Anslo beyond the obvious "you caught my dumb, inattentive ass in lowsec, so fuck you."
The way you guys perceive your groups is not what will determine or guide interactions or perceptions from outside parties. You could all be the nicest and funniest bunch of people to play EVE with in the world, but if that isn't the perception held by people outside of your immediate blue-list, it isn't going to be the perception that they bring to the table when they interact with you.
I flew with Aduro a few times too and didn't have anything but a blast, for the record. :p
I remember you. Laser scorps best scorps. But I get what you're saying here, and that is my point.
I know that, ICly, Aduro would be looked down at cause grr derpy pirate. I'm talking about OOC perceptions and preconceived notions of a character based on their affiliation.
'Oh he's a new RP person but from Aduro, must be a troll. See? Look at that derp, they're doing it wrong. Just ignore them, they're an idiot.' Something like that, or some harsh criticism for similar reasons, is what I'm speaking out against.
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If your drama creates fourteen backstage pages of drama, the problem isn't the community.
Well, there is that.
Re: the OP, Backstage was lagely created because of a weird kind of RP Community Gatekeeper Schism. Not going into any of that shit here; my point is that our idea in 2010 was a Community Resource with no gates to be kept. The interested would come, the uninterested wouldn't, and friendship with X, Y or Z Eve Player was not a requirement for entry.
In the real world, there will always be cliques, some larger and more influential than others. We try to keep clique influence out of Backstage; Silver, Morwen, Ghost, Jek and Ciarante have done such a tearjerkingly great job of keeping this thing on the rails...
Anyway, yeah, I hope none of the perceived Gatekeeper shit is happening here. I've always believed that there IS an overarching Community that encompasses all of our smaller communities. Minnie FW FC talks to Amarr FW FC to schedule big fight, or to meet up for an impromptu battle... Community at work. We don't have to be bosom buddies to be a part of the same community, especially one with only one barrier to entry (that being, you must be interested in RP in some way, else why would you be here anyway?)
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I have never flown a Scorpion with guns on it in my life, let alone lasers. :|
In your case, without seeing the logs, I think given the perception of Aduro (admittedly, largely due to Siig being... weird), the frothing from the Tengu pilot didn't have much to do with you RPing at him, it was probably just icing on the cake and served as "yet another excuse" to mouth off.
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Gatekeeping is occuring ingame, mostly, away from the eyes of everybody. Either in private where harassment happens the most, or either on various ingame channels/venues.
Backstage is pretty clean.
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I have never flown a Scorpion with guns on it in my life, let alone lasers. :|
In your case, without seeing the logs, I think given the perception of Aduro (admittedly, largely due to Siig being... weird), the frothing from the Tengu pilot didn't have much to do with you RPing at him, it was probably just icing on the cake and served as "yet another excuse" to mouth off.
Well I mean that's what we were talking about before though, RPing in local/nul and seeing reactions. I was just putting my example out there. I giggled at the Tengu.
Also...maybe I flew the laser scorp...someone did.
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I don't about this being THE community. Like another poster said, it's more of an entry level place for RP for new people (gotta start somewhere). Kind of like a starter corp....kind of.
As someone yet to contruct my own roleplaying 'sphere', I think this is a pretty critical point. It's the largest cross-section of EVE RP in game, so if you're looking around for people who mesh with your style, that's where you present yourself essentially. But it's like the D back in City of Heroes: plenty of places to lurk and soliloquize from, or to witness spectacles of roleplaying started and concluded elsewhere, but actually forming/joining groups was a crapshoot because people didn't reach out to eachother.
I'm kind of losing my point here, sorry. Even if it isn't monolithic, the most visible community, and its treatment of people, does flavor the well so to speak.
Doesn't mean don't reach out and draw from that well, new player or old, but I wouldn't discount what's being put back into it.
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Having just started playing EVE (May 6 I believe is the start date), I am still slowly getting involved with RP with people. It has been slow going for a couple of reasons...and these are merely my perception of the situation. One, I am the newcomer in what appears to be a fairly established group of gamers and therefore I feel like I do need to prove myself in some way. Not saying that I have to prove that I'm a good RP'er...I've been role-playing for 20 years in different formats, but what I see, and it holds true with the other groups I have joined...there is history that I have no knowledge about and at times I do feel like I'm butting into something so I sit back and watch and try to pick spots where I can attempt to interact with people.
The second reason is more a personality issue...I am by nature very shy and have a hard time putting myself out there. That is something I have to work on and why I am cautious with what I say or do IC.
Now, the idea of starting up my own community of role-players could mitigate some of these factors, however that is the crux of the issue. If you're coming into an established gaming community like EVE (or just the Summit for that matter) and you don't know anyone and are hesitant to approach people just out of the blue, trying to create your own group won't work cause you'll be on your own.
I understand the sentiment of playing with the people you want to play with, but that doesn't work in the vastness of EVE or other MMOs or tabletop gaming. Just because I get along with a small group and want to play with them, I cannot expect them to devote their time to playing with me...they have other people they're probably involved with or don't have the time at the moment, whatever.
That all said, I have enjoyed my time in EVE and have not felt like I was being hedged out because I'm the newcomer. It could be that I got lucky, but you've all been a swell bunch of people and pretty welcoming. :cube:
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I'm going to go for a different approach on the matter. I don't think there is A Community (agreeing with many posting here), but a lot of different kinds of communities, with different levels of interaction. Basically, any IC channel (and some OOC) with steady amount of people (not necessarily the same) will turn into a community of it's own. It doesn't have to go along racial/faction lines as Louella pointed out, but indeed it often does. But I believe it relates to closure, so there would be four kinds of communities:
-Closed communities: a settle group of players, often being the same, with specific traits that make them appropriate. An IC RP channel for members of a corp is a good example of this, but it can also be any IC channel with password, or set list of blocked/allowed people for other reasons (for example, let's imagine someone's house always has people in it, it would turn into a closed community but not along corp lines, but all being bond by friendship to the house owner).
-Semi-closed communities: semi closed communities are those that anyone can theoretically access, but in the end catter to the same people always and have heavy moderation in place. A public corporation IC channel is one such example, but also heavy faction-only channels (like the chapel).
-Semi-open: these are the other side of the coin from the ones before, channels open to anyone and with a big allowance to people coming and going. Still, a more or less stable community has developed around them, and though they don't block anyone's access, it may require some time to know the protocols, who's who, etc. A classical bar channel would be an example of this.
-Open: finally, those open to all, with little to no moderation, where everyone is allowed. The Summit is the best example of this, of course, but not the only one (Live Events, OOC, the one Silas had created as an experiment, etc.). They have a open theme with little details, so the effort of entering the arena is much smaller, mostly requiring people just to be IC and a few more things (like the slave issue in The Summit). Other than that, almost everything is game.
With this in mind, I believe each and every one of those are separate communities, though a player often belongs to a lot of them and quite often they will overlap. One can be in his closed corp IC channel, at the same time in the public version of it and also on a couple loyalist-only to their faction, then a few bars they like, and finally the Summit.
So there is no The Community: players that may be important in one may mean nothing in another, for example, like rules of what is fair or not, what is allowed (big difference, for example, is it a physical place?), etc. There are dozens of communities interacting along the lines of players moving from one to another, bringing the baggage their characters have been developing, and interacting with others like balls on a pool game.
If there was to be A Community, the only one I can think of is out of the game: IGS, as it is the only central hub for RPers, with no equivalent. And, even there, lots of awesome RPers don't post or rarely do so, players who may be very important in other spheres. So I, personally, would only consider IGS the biggest Open Community of all, but just one more among many.
As for gates, sure that The Summit and IGS are some big ones, but not the only ones. A corp recruitment channel can surely be also someone's gateway (was mine, together with the Amarr faction channel which, back then, was quite full of RPers), specially to newer pilots that are looking for somewhere to fit both in RP and also game-wise. And I'm sure many other doors exist (like a bar, for example, for a publicized event in IGS that may draw curious or interested people in RP).
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Having just started playing EVE (May 6 I believe is the start date), I am still slowly getting involved with RP with people. It has been slow going for a couple of reasons...and these are merely my perception of the situation. One, I am the newcomer in what appears to be a fairly established group of gamers and therefore I feel like I do need to prove myself in some way. Not saying that I have to prove that I'm a good RP'er...
I don't think there's so much a established group of gamers to which you have to prove anything (certainly not!) but that there are more vocal players than others, and they may seem like a established group. But I've entered twice into the RP arena and I can tell you it's quite a more open structure (read my previous post) and most people will only ask of you not to derp too much. ;)
In the end, what RPers want more than anything, is people to RP with. :D
I've been role-playing for 20 years in different formats, but what I see, and it holds true with the other groups I have joined...there is history that I have no knowledge about and at times I do feel like I'm butting into something so I sit back and watch and try to pick spots where I can attempt to interact with people.
There are dozens of histories there, one for each player. But why would butting into something be bad? You're a new player, but you also are a new pilot ICly, so it would be reasonable that you didn't know all those things. I had to learn them twice, and it's a big deal of the fun to just take everything wrong and mistake, or ask complicated questions that get people into unconfortable places, or whatever. :twisted:
The second reason is more a personality issue...I am by nature very shy and have a hard time putting myself out there. That is something I have to work on and why I am cautious with what I say or do IC.
On this battle, you are on your own, I'm afraid. :(
Now, the idea of starting up my own community of role-players could mitigate some of these factors, however that is the crux of the issue. If you're coming into an established gaming community like EVE (or just the Summit for that matter) and you don't know anyone and are hesitant to approach people just out of the blue, trying to create your own group won't work cause you'll be on your own.
I understand the sentiment of playing with the people you want to play with, but that doesn't work in the vastness of EVE or other MMOs or tabletop gaming. Just because I get along with a small group and want to play with them, I cannot expect them to devote their time to playing with me...they have other people they're probably involved with or don't have the time at the moment, whatever.
One thing that's nice about EVE RP is that you don't have to walk to the nearby tavern to RP like in most MMOs, so why would they have to choose between your company and that of others when they can be in both channels at the same time? If you want to create a community, go ahead! I created my original corp when I was more or less one week into the game, sure I made a lot of mistakes (some very severe!), but it was fun, and a small community did come out from there, one that grew and did things along time. So go ahead, if it'll help you, create your own special community!
And if the problem is coming out of the blue, then count me in. You got one already ;)
That all said, I have enjoyed my time in EVE and have not felt like I was being hedged out because I'm the newcomer. It could be that I got lucky, but you've all been a swell bunch of people and pretty welcoming. :cube:
Actually, I think most of the comunity is pretty welcoming (except Vincent, who hates everyone! :PPP), except the dangerous bitter vets who are around hunting for fresh flesh. ;) So don't worry if you make a mistake or anything, just go along, enjoy and have fun... and avoid bitter vets!