Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Aria Jenneth on 26 May 2013, 09:44
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... Consists of what, exactly? It's clear that the Caldari have law firms (it's mentioned in their main article, I believe), but it's unclear how their justice system functions.
Any ideas / canonical sources?
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None that I'm aware.
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There is an old article (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/mercantile-club-hosts-discussion-on-caldari-constructions-takeover/) from about 5 years ago with this reference:
retired Lai Dai Tribunal Justice Ulia Kaarputen.
I also wrote up something in the past, but can't seem to find it.
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I expect it would depend on the corporation. AFAIK the only court with State-wide jurisdiction handles inter-corporate conflicts exclusively.
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I have to mildly disagree with Stitcher's appraisal that vigilante justice is not acceptable in the State. What in the world do you think the Tea Maker ceremony is? It's a cup of poison that you hand to your enemy on their moment of weakness or failure and demand they drink it, or unspecified bad things will happen to them.
Caldari society is brutal and makes plenty use of social vigilantism through the tea and likely other methods. Guilt and forced-suicide play a HUGE role in extralegal justice/honor killings within the State. The State has a functioning court system, but it's not the only way to eliminate your enemies. It might be the only legal way, but it's not the only acceptable way... especially not for those who are clearly in control of the courts themselves, as Heth has proven to be.
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Found what I had written up in the past.
Lai Dai Employee Justice Code
Outline for External Use
0 : Introduction
1 : Caldari State Regulations & Law application to Lai Dai employees
2 : Corporate Regulations & Law
2.0 : Section Introduction
2.1 : General Jurisdiction – presents all Lai Dai Corporation and subsidiary employees regardless of corporation, location, or position.
2.2 : Special Jurisdiction – presents those regulations and laws that apply to various subsidiary corporations. The subsidiary it applies to is noted in the regulation or law.
2.3 : Military Jurisdiction – presents those regulations and laws that apply solely to the military components of the Lai Dai Corporation, chiefly Lai Dai Protection Services.
3 : Administrative & Judicial Actions
3.0 : Section Introduction
3.1 : Administrative & Judicial Actions for violations of Regulations and Laws in section 2.1 & 2.2
3.2 : Administrative & Judicial Actions for violations of Regulations and Laws in section 2.3 by members of the military components it applies to.
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If we forget outright assassinating your enemies, assassinating failed allies (such as underperforming corporate executives) as a way to get rid of them without needing to lose face is also a thing. Not sure if all of this would be exactly "vigilante" or whether there is a kind of a code for when this is appropriate.
I wonder if the death by Tea Maker ceremony is reserved for a special class of people? (Known examples are CEOs and an Admiral.) I think the medeival Japanese had a code on how specific people were allowed to suicide, with seppuku reserved for the samurai class, traders being allowed to use poison etc.?
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If we forget outright assassinating your enemies, assassinating failed allies (such as underperforming corporate executives) as a way to get rid of them without needing to lose face is also a thing. Not sure if all of this would be exactly "vigilante" or whether there is a kind of a code for when this is appropriate.
I wonder if the death by Tea Maker ceremony is reserved for a special class of people? (Known examples are CEOs and an Admiral.) I think the medeival Japanese had a code on how specific people were allowed to suicide, with seppuku reserved for the samurai class, traders being allowed to use poison etc.?
The ritual suicide article on EVElopedia states it's a method used by the Executive class (and probably anyone above them). (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ritual_suicide)
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I would imagine whatever rights one possesses is established by contractual obligations and corporate bylaws.
I doubt they would give much credence to natural rights and such, for that way Gallente evil lies.
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I remember reading an article on the patterns of a justice system that operates as a sort of theater, where citizens can observe justice being done by the state. Apparently (at least in places) there's a special focus on the guilty plea; a plea of innocence is tantamount to revolt, a declaration that the agents of the state have wronged you. Pleading guilty, on the other hand, shows a strong and useful picture of an evildoer throwing her/himself on the mercy of the wise and powerful state and submitting to its judgment.
The system's facial goal is the same as we have in the United States. The practical aim, however, differs greatly.
This is a game I can see the Caldari playing-- justice as propaganda, essentially. It's less important whether the accused is truly innocent or truly guilty, and more important that the accused submits to the judgment of the authorities.
Note that this system only works if its true nature is little-understood outside of those who participate in it. Transparency is toxic to it, but neither corporations nor dictatorial power structures in general are known for their transparency.
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If we forget outright assassinating your enemies, assassinating failed allies (such as underperforming corporate executives) as a way to get rid of them without needing to lose face is also a thing. Not sure if all of this would be exactly "vigilante" or whether there is a kind of a code for when this is appropriate.
I wonder if the death by Tea Maker ceremony is reserved for a special class of people? (Known examples are CEOs and an Admiral.) I think the medeival Japanese had a code on how specific people were allowed to suicide, with seppuku reserved for the samurai class, traders being allowed to use poison etc.?
Seppukku was reserved for the samurai yes, and they had to be allowed to do so by their Daimyo. Denying a demand for seppukku was considered as an offense, but duty demanded that the samurai abide by it to redeem himself, and had to live in shame until by deed, such is done.
Commoners were forbidden to use it, ofc.
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You have to remember one thing, Caldari are not only based on Japanese but on Finnish culture as well.
For Finns, the legal system is more about what is fair and the spirit of the law, not about the letter of the law.
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I don't see how the Caldari are based on Finnish culture to be honest, not more than the Gallente are supposedly based on French. That's just a naming flavour.
And the only few things that reminds me of Japanese in the Caldari culture is maybe the blatantly teamaker ceremony copy cat of the japanese seppuku, or the Achura shinto-buddhist-like religion...
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Your description Aria made me think of an episode of DS9 that had a Cardassian trial. It is a pretty hilarious fascist/stalinist show trial pastiche but it has that same exact vibe. The accused is guilty, the trial is designed only to reinforce the control of the larger society. The judge starts with "The subject is guilty, the sentence is death..... let the trial begin". I always lol when I think of it.
Also I think Gotti would likely be largely correct, with the exception of "moral" failings that harm the State/Mega directly I would think the majority of offenses would be contract based. Steal from someone and your not just interfering with their business your failing your own contractual obligations.
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The Civire culture carries Finnish stereotypies, I think. Can't remember which chronicle it was, but it mentioned a trader who had only traded with Civire and considered them somewhat blunt & honest, and was kind of nervous to trade with a Deteis for the first time. A lot of "Finnish culture" is loaning from elsewhere in Scandinavia, Germany and Russia. I've before raised the opinion that the State is kind of a nation-sized mill town, so if wanting to pick things off the history of Finland, one would probably need to study the ruukki/bruk towns. While a successful example of a Caldari society would be kind of an entire community built on Auftragstaktik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission-type_tactics) meeting talkoo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_work#Talkoot), the degenerate version is a case of mill town mentality (http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruksmentalitet)* meeting cyberpunk.
A community built on old Germanic-Norse tradition might be interesting. There is a long tradition with noble ideals ("what is not right and fair shall not be the law"), but also some surprising twists (at one point, if someone was really drunk, the community was responsible from keeping him hurting people - if the drunk, say, killed someone with an axe, the person who gave him the axe would get the sentence).
*) Sorry, sources in English pretty much forget that there are company towns outside of good old England and the United States. (At least the ones I could find with a quick search.)
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There isn't any cultural equivalency in EVE. The Caldari were inspired by, and I quote, "the Germans, Japanese, and for some reason, Finland" (Reynir in the book Art of EVE).
The "for some reason" he speaks of we can agree or disagree on, but the fierce independence of the Finnish and their incredible victories over the Soviet Union, despite the land and financial concessions they made, can be taken into account.
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Your description Aria made me think of an episode of DS9 that had a Cardassian trial. It is a pretty hilarious fascist/stalinist show trial pastiche but it has that same exact vibe. The accused is guilty, the trial is designed only to reinforce the control of the larger society. The judge starts with "The subject is guilty, the sentence is death..... let the trial begin". I always lol when I think of it.
I, too, thought of that episode. Sadly, the Cardassians don't seem to be much for subtlety and nuance, so their approach is about as subtle as a mattock.
The RL equivalent, at least as currently practiced (apparently it's a widespread phenomenon in China), actually does allow for people to plead innocent and approach such pleas in, in principle, good faith-- it's just that the pressure not to is even higher than it is in the U.S.. Not only is the accused "wasting" government resources (an objection to trials I sometimes hear from prosecutors), but also calling into question the judgment or integrity of a small legion of government officials (the police, the prosecutors, the people who hired the police and prosecutors, and so on). This is not something a good citizen does unless the officials are not good officials.
From what I gather, higher-level Communist Party officials are usually pretty solid, or at least not obviously corrupt or incompetent. Local officials, on the other hand, get ... problematic, so possibly the higher level officials keep an eye on how many pleas of innocence are coming out of a given district as a gauge of how much attention they should be paying to their subordinates (that last is purest speculation).
Also I think Gotti would likely be largely correct, with the exception of "moral" failings that harm the State/Mega directly I would think the majority of offenses would be contract based. Steal from someone and your not just interfering with their business your failing your own contractual obligations.
Having studied contract law, this makes sense if and only if the whole bloody criminal code is either written directly into megacorporate contracts or incorporated by reference. The old thing about violating contractual obligations being, itself, a criminal offense in the State makes little sense to me because there are almost always a passel of possible reasons why you would want a contract to be violated, ranging from economic efficiency to illegality to flat-out impossibility of performance.
It takes a pretty impractical society to march somebody off to jail because his shipment of plantains went bad before it could be delivered and his contract attorney forgot to include the boilerplate excusing non-performance under those circumstances.
Further, there's reference in the PF to the megas being bound by Caldari laws. This suggests that they are not the ultimate source of at least some law, which may very well be truly ancient and even have allegedly sacred origins (the Winds, for example). The Caldari certainly wouldn't be the first to believe that law came from divine origins (reading Blackstone's thoughts on the nature of law is ... eye-opening. Also hilarious).
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Also I think Gotti would likely be largely correct, with the exception of "moral" failings that harm the State/Mega directly I would think the majority of offenses would be contract based. Steal from someone and your not just interfering with their business your failing your own contractual obligations.
Having studied contract law, this makes sense if and only if the whole bloody criminal code is either written directly into megacorporate contracts or incorporated by reference. The old thing about violating contractual obligations being, itself, a criminal offense in the State makes little sense to me because there are almost always a passel of possible reasons why you would want a contract to be violated, ranging from economic efficiency to illegality to flat-out impossibility of performance.
It takes a pretty impractical society to march somebody off to jail because his shipment of plantains went bad before it could be delivered and his contract attorney forgot to include the boilerplate excusing non-performance under those circumstances.
Further, there's reference in the PF to the megas being bound by Caldari laws. This suggests that they are not the ultimate source of at least some law, which may very well be truly ancient and even have allegedly sacred origins (the Winds, for example). The Caldari certainly wouldn't be the first to believe that law came from divine origins (reading Blackstone's thoughts on the nature of law is ... eye-opening. Also hilarious).
I think of the Caldari corporate justice systems as being extensively civil vs common in framework. The CBT is likely more along the common law framework, but in my opinion it is more akin to international law than national law, structured by treaty or said another way: a multilateral contract.
To be within the State's system, one must be an employee of one of its corporations. These corporations likely have extensive regulations, which apply to their territory and personnel. An employee of the company signs up (via a contract) to those regulations. The penalties for violating the employment contract or operating licences (contracts) vary with the violation.
While it is impractical to march somebody off to jail because he failed to deliver the shipment of plantains before it went bad, thus losing his corporation money, repeated failures to perform are likely reasons to have the employment contract terminated. This likely also applies to his boss, who if he is not managing the routes well is also likely to get sacked. In either case, the two individuals face a penalty of some kind in line with their contract. (grimdark, cyberpunk)
I think it is important to reframe the idea of Rousseau's a social contract as being a literal contract in the case of the State's megacorporations (and also in the case of the Federation's to some extent).
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orange:
Actually, I suspect that the Caldari system is more civil than common at every possible level. One of common law's major features is ye olde jury, and I don't see either the elites or ordinary people of the State trusting in the proletariat. The Caldari don't seem to be much on the "wisdom of crowds," etc.
About contracts: that's sort of the way it would have to work, yeah. Undoubtedly the intricacies would vary from corp to corp, job to job, and individual to individual. One major thing to keep in mind, though, is who has jurisdiction if a dockworker from Kaalakiota punches a freighter crew member from Hyasyoda at a bar owned by Ishukone. Working all of that out by contract may be feasible, but it is certainly a headache (obvious answer: Ishukone, which owned the establishment, but supposing Ishukone waived jurisdiction to Kaalakiota as a term of its lease-- and supposing Hyasyoda had made it a condition of its delivery contract that its employees are not subject to Kaalakiota jurisdiction?).
The merit and the huge problem with contract law is that within certain limits, which in the Caldari State is probably covered largely by honor instead of equity, contract law says whatever the parties agree that it says. One major question is how realistic the Caldari are about the relative positions of power of the parties making the agreement: a megacorporation is in a position of pretty supreme power, and it's pretty easy for them to utterly screw the little guy.
They may have started making less of a habit of that recently; grimdark or no, worker revolts on the scale of a civilization are hazardous to one's health, and I doubt anybody much wants to see another demagogue swept into power.
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The merit and the huge problem with contract law is that within certain limits, which in the Caldari State is probably covered largely by honor instead of equity, contract law says whatever the parties agree that it says. One major question is how realistic the Caldari are about the relative positions of power of the parties making the agreement: a megacorporation is in a position of pretty supreme power, and it's pretty easy for them to utterly screw the little guy.
They may have started making less of a habit of that recently; grimdark or no, worker revolts on the scale of a civilization are hazardous to one's health, and I doubt anybody much wants to see another demagogue swept into power.
If you go back to the times when bonds and obligations were common (in England, for example), it really did come down to "don't commit crime/'disturb the peace' or else you shall have to pay a fine of [predetermined value]. Please sign here.". Holding good behavior for ransom. It seemed to work, too.
Now, granted, that was conducted by monarchs with a very, very strong interest in law and order (particularly post-war of the roses), rather than by megacorporations with an interest in profit margins. However, I could see such a system being a reality in the cyberpunk people-as-human-resources world that is the Caldari State.
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When the belligerents walked into the bar, they likely walked by a sign/terms of use that likely included "do not physically assault the other patrons, belligerents will be barred from all Ishukone bars for the following month."
The Hyasyoda crew member may or may not have recourse to report his assailant to station security, depending on the contract Hyasyoda has with KK and whether or not he is even allowed to talk directly to the Home Guard security team.
The dock-worker, as part of his employment contract, subjects himself to KK's jurisdiction and may have violated the contract by assaulting an agent of a client, possibly causing KK to have to pay Hyasyoda reparations since one of its employees violated the contract. KK, not being to happy about this, docks the dockworkers pay, restricts his services privileges, and possibly re-assigns the dock worker to one of many asteroid mining sites (which rumor has it are prone to being attacked by pirates/capsuleers).
Which brings up the question of - are there prisons?
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If you go back to the times when bonds and obligations were common (in England, for example), it really did come down to "don't commit crime/'disturb the peace' or else you shall have to pay a fine of [predetermined value]. Please sign here.". Holding good behavior for ransom. It seemed to work, too.
Now, granted, that was conducted by monarchs with a very, very strong interest in law and order (particularly post-war of the roses), rather than by megacorporations with an interest in profit margins. However, I could see such a system being a reality in the cyberpunk people-as-human-resources world that is the Caldari State.
Oh, certainly-- but that was backed up by some very straightforward and widely understood law that those contracts provided some refinement to. That was a period where most of the out-and-out law was so obvious that your average peasant understood it in detail-- you don't commit theft, you don't commit murder, beating your spouse is fine, and a contract is a contract. That last one is probably responsible for a lot of our images of demons doing deals with mortals-- there's more than one medieval con artist who got rich cheating people with viciously-written contracts. It's one of the places our limits on foreclosure come from.
It's entirely possible that the Caldari legal code is derived almost wholly from contractual agreement-- but I also suspect that the system has gotten pretty well refined and streamlined over time.
When the belligerents walked into the bar, they likely walked by a sign/terms of use that likely included "do not physically assault the other patrons, belligerents will be barred from all Ishukone bars for the following month."
Considering the Caldari, and especially Civire, cultural tendency towards violence, I'd put the ban at one week (possibly much less) and apply it only to that specific establishment. If it goes past that, it's probably not enforced-- and thus broadly ineffective.
The Hyasyoda crew member may or may not have recourse to report his assailant to station security, depending on the contract Hyasyoda has with KK and whether or not he is even allowed to talk directly to the Home Guard security team.
I suspect station security has blanket license to keep the peace, but yes, that sounds about right.
The dock-worker, as part of his employment contract, subjects himself to KK's jurisdiction and may have violated the contract by assaulting a agent of a client, possibly causing KK to have to pay Hyasyoda reparations since one of its employees violated the contract. KK, not being to happy about this, docks the dockworkers pay, restricts his services privileges, and possibly re-assigns the dock worker to one of many asteroid mining sites (which rumor has it are prone to being attacked by pirates/capsuleers).
Okay, here's where you lose me. The Caldari are not so warm and fuzzy as to give a damn who struck whom unless it led to a major incident. I can see each group being responsible for its people's conduct, but remember also the way the Caldari culture works: life is a test; the strong survive. Bearing in mind, again, the undercurrent of violence in Civire culture, fights are probably too common for corporate higher-ups to take them very seriously. Unless somebody was rendered unfit to work, I doubt the corporate higher-ups care; having medical patch up some cuts and bruises is just a cost of doing business.
So ... that was maybe an unfair example-- likely jurisdiction in a minor assault between worker-caste equals: nobody's interested. It might not even be a crime.
Striking an executive, on the other hand....
Considering the Caldari fondness for hierarchy, it strikes me that most Caldari courts (certainly the ones handling petty theft and such) are probably run by a single magistrate and handled as bench trials. Below a certain level, bringing an attorney in might well be either "not done" or forbidden outright; the magistrate hears each side's story, rules on the facts, and hands down a decision and any appropriate sentencing.
Higher caste and higher crimes might involve larger tribunals and bring lawyers into play, but I'd be surprised if the megas felt the need to hire a lawyer for every unskilled laborer who went a little too far in an argument and landed his cousin in the clinic for a week.
Which brings up the question of - are there prisons?
"Methods of Torture: The Caldari" suggests that there's more than one kind of prison. Those who transgress can be ... modified. Not controlled, necessarily, just creatively damaged. Note that the protagonist/victim in that story is a white-collar petty embezzler, though.
Probably, there are actual prisons in places, though it's also quite likely that many serious crimes carry a penalty of revoked citizenship upon conviction ... after which the revenge any aggrieved party takes is no longer the business of the law.
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According to the CBT entry, their justice system is largely based on the Raata Code, which is an inquisitorial system, where the job of court officers (the prosecutor, the judge, and the defense) is to determine the truth of the matter, not necessarily guilt or innocence, which means that the judge can ask questions of witnesses, etc. I suspect this is also the case for most corporate law systems, considering the weight of tradition. I do not think juries are part of Caldari law, though you may have panels of judges instead.
As far as how crimes are prosecuted, within the sovereign territories of the corporate powers I suspect they would seem at least somewhat familiar; they still have to deal with crime like murder, assault, rape, burglary, and the like, and deal out appropriate punishment; it is possible that crimes are seen as a breaking of a contract to keep the public order, but I don't necessarily think that's the case. As you may suspect, I would guess that people who happen to be highly place are treated more leniently by the courts, but then again if they are an embarrassment to the honor of the corporation, they may receive justice through...other means. There is little doubt that corporations can have their employees "disappeared" if necessary, and I think it's well-established that the corporate powers are engaged in constant shadow warfare between each other; I know there have been news articles and missions where that is readily apparent.
As far as punishment, I suspect prison labor is relatively common, as well as behavior modification through pharmaceutical, psychological, or cybernetic means. The death penalty is certainly in place as well, though the kind of spectacle that the Gallente went through with Eturrer would strike them as abhorrent -- you don't want to chance making a martyr, or give such an individual more attention. You simply be done with it; execute them quickly and quietly, and dispose of the ashes in an unmarked (but carefully recorded) grave.
In terms of crimes like treason, for corporate citizens they would likely be taken care of by the enforcement arms of their parent corporation; if they were not, then that corporation would be violating the laws of the Tribunal and would be dealt with accordingly. I suspect if Heth meets justice it will not be in a court of law; he will be made an example of by the other CEOs. That doesn't mean a public execution; after all, the lesson is not for the general populace, it is for the other CEOs.