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General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Saede Riordan on 27 Apr 2013, 13:32

Title: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Saede Riordan on 27 Apr 2013, 13:32
Link! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZPCiqBLPM8)

/me hyperventilates.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: kalaratiri on 27 Apr 2013, 13:36
One of the better ones of recent years. Lovely :)

Edit: The fact they seem to be coupling this trailer (at least initially) with the proposed TV series, also makes me very, very happy.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Samira Kernher on 27 Apr 2013, 13:43
The reintegration of the idea that your original body is biomassed to become a capsuleer doesn't sit well with me.

Otherwise, it's a pretty awesome trailer.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: kalaratiri on 27 Apr 2013, 13:44
Doesn't bother me at all. I know there are people who like the idea of 'storing' their original body for sentimental reasons (etc), but as far as I'm concerned Kala lost her body years ago and barely noticed.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Adreena Madeveda on 27 Apr 2013, 13:45
Awesome.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Iwan Terpalen on 27 Apr 2013, 14:03
I confess to mild moistness in the pants area, original body flip-flopping aside.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Snowflake on 27 Apr 2013, 14:07
Holy moly! I like it.  :)
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Utsukushi Shi on 27 Apr 2013, 14:22
That trailer was just too good. It kind of hurt.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Akrasjel Lanate on 27 Apr 2013, 14:23
Good stuff.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Samira Kernher on 27 Apr 2013, 14:25
Doesn't bother me at all. I know there are people who like the idea of 'storing' their original body for sentimental reasons (etc), but as far as I'm concerned Kala lost her body years ago and barely noticed.

Well, being anti-cloning is a major aspect of Samira's character, which is why it bothers me. Based on the scene that was shown, she would have dropped out of the capsuleer program right right at that moment. So I'm hoping the devs will go with what they said last time and have it be a new change to the program, rather than a retcon (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1519536&page=1#8).
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 27 Apr 2013, 14:33
Hrrrrrm. If they play this straight, they're drawing a pretty direct parallel between DUST mercs and EVE pilots, down even to methods of creation.

Could we see the "soft clone" issue rendered moot by CCP just introducing a mk. II cloning rig based on DUST implants that gives capsuleers the same level of insta-clone?
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Matariki Rain on 27 Apr 2013, 14:46
Aria, I'm in two minds about whether the apparent review of soft cloning is to make room for something like this, or whether we simply did all our communication about it with CCP Dropbear and that wasn't communicated to the remaining staff. CCP Gnauton played the "I had no idea it was something that was important to players" line yesterday.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 27 Apr 2013, 14:57
Whether I find that surprising in the slightest depends on how closely involved CCP Gnauton is in the lore.

From a mechanical perspective, it's minimally important-- none of the entities at play can be killed in gameplay without being in essentially ideal conditions for cloning.

From a worldbuilding perspective, it's a gaping hole. If soft clones don't exist and only DUST soldiers carry their cloning rigs around with them, capsuleers should exist in permanent fear of out-of-pod assassination by pissed-off baseliner entities. Nothing says, "Yes, we know it was you who interfered with our one hundred thousandth attempt to invade Motsu, and we don't appreciate it," like a rail flechette through the brainpan.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Darveses on 27 Apr 2013, 16:27
Was awesome to watch it in the big concert hall with sound cranked up all the way, loved it  :D
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Ghost Hunter on 27 Apr 2013, 16:31
The reintegration of the idea that your original body is biomassed to become a capsuleer doesn't sit well with me.

Otherwise, it's a pretty awesome trailer.

This, but for general consumers it helps drive home the point better than anything. It's quite strong marketing wise.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Creep on 27 Apr 2013, 17:37
...Why wasn't she in pod goo?
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Milo Caman on 27 Apr 2013, 17:41
...Why wasn't she in pod goo?

One can only assume it's a representation of how the capsuleer sees herself.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Creep on 27 Apr 2013, 17:42
But...we see ourselves as our ships. Through camera drones.

(I'd say it's for dramatic visual storytelling, actually, and pretty well-done at that.)
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Ché Biko on 27 Apr 2013, 18:40
The "empires fear us" part of the trailer gives me the shivers for some reason.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Esna Pitoojee on 27 Apr 2013, 19:01
The trailer was extremely well-done visually (I liked the Terran ships. Currently debating whether they are cobbled together from existing technical assets or entirely new models).

However. Call me a bittergrump, but there are two things PFwise in this trailer that really bug me. One is of course the "your original body is terminated" thing - I'm not terribly fond of the idea either.

The other is that CCP really needs to figure out whether we're independent of CONCORD / the Big 4 or not. A lot of the promotional material spins the capsuleers as completely unbound, but the reality of what we can do ingame (not just balance-driven mechanics, but certain things CCP has made a deliberate choice not to let us do) suggest we are on a far tighter leash.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 27 Apr 2013, 19:04
They will need to resolve CONCORD if things will move in that direction. Any 'uprising' will be short indeed while they still hold all the puppet strings.

Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Saede Riordan on 27 Apr 2013, 19:15
Hahahahaha, you can all join me as immortal demigods bereft of your original bodies.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Creep on 27 Apr 2013, 21:53
The trailer was extremely well-done visually (I liked the Terran ships. Currently debating whether they are cobbled together from existing technical assets or entirely new models).

However. Call me a bittergrump, but there are two things PFwise in this trailer that really bug me. One is of course the "your original body is terminated" thing - I'm not terribly fond of the idea either.

The other is that CCP really needs to figure out whether we're independent of CONCORD / the Big 4 or not. A lot of the promotional material spins the capsuleers as completely unbound, but the reality of what we can do ingame (not just balance-driven mechanics, but certain things CCP has made a deliberate choice not to let us do) suggest we are on a far tighter leash.
I don't buy the "CONCORD can pull the plug on our clones" idea. There are way too many pirates, pirate-faction-loyalists, suicide gankers, and terrorists running about unchecked for that to be a reality. Hell, they wouldn't even have to pull the plug on all of us ne'er-do-wells, just a few of the big names. That kind of message would end the Hulkageddons and suchlike quick.

Sec-Status Hits have been cited by Live Event actors as the CONCORD Big Threat. Please.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Sepherim on 27 Apr 2013, 22:31
...Why wasn't she in pod goo?

This. I loved the video, but this troubled me enormously. I understand it's not as cool visually as a cockpit... but still, it's a main thing in EVE lore. :(

Still, video is great.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Dewgong on 27 Apr 2013, 22:33
Holy tits that trailer was epic.

Makes me miss Eve more than I already was <_<

too bad the game isn't anywhere near as fun as it was a few years ago though =/
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Esna Pitoojee on 27 Apr 2013, 22:45
The trailer was extremely well-done visually (I liked the Terran ships. Currently debating whether they are cobbled together from existing technical assets or entirely new models).

However. Call me a bittergrump, but there are two things PFwise in this trailer that really bug me. One is of course the "your original body is terminated" thing - I'm not terribly fond of the idea either.

The other is that CCP really needs to figure out whether we're independent of CONCORD / the Big 4 or not. A lot of the promotional material spins the capsuleers as completely unbound, but the reality of what we can do ingame (not just balance-driven mechanics, but certain things CCP has made a deliberate choice not to let us do) suggest we are on a far tighter leash.
I don't buy the "CONCORD can pull the plug on our clones" idea. There are way too many pirates, pirate-faction-loyalists, suicide gankers, and terrorists running about unchecked for that to be a reality. Hell, they wouldn't even have to pull the plug on all of us ne'er-do-wells, just a few of the big names. That kind of message would end the Hulkageddons and suchlike quick.

I never said a thing about 'pulling the plug' - CONCORD's evident controls are much more subtle. I'll note here that I am not a huge fan of the "CONCORD holds you on a super-tight leash" dynamic any more than I am the "hahahaha, we are utterly free and unbound" one, but there are a great many hints that we are being constrained in some fashion by the very capsule technology we use - for instance, why can we not easily scan down enormous empire naval yards in highsec? They obviously exist, but we can't even catch a mere hint of them on our scanners.

Quote
Sec-Status Hits have been cited by Live Event actors as the CONCORD Big Threat. Please.

This is worth a whole separate discussion on the cast of tools available for Dev Actors to 'hit back' at players opposing their IC goals.


EDIT: Well, it seems the 'Terran ship' is an entirely new model, which was also teased at via the art panel.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: orange on 27 Apr 2013, 23:02
EDIT: Well, it seems the 'Terran ship' is an entirely new model, which was also teased at via the art panel.

It is also the model used in the new exploration sites.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Korsavius on 28 Apr 2013, 00:17
Ermergehrd someone call the doctor, my ovaries!!1111111111111!!!!!!!111
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Morwen Lagann on 28 Apr 2013, 03:12
Here's a fun one for you guys: that trailer may replace the ingame intro video. Don't remember which dev I was talking to last night that said it, though; I kinda stopped keeping track after midnight or so.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Milo Caman on 28 Apr 2013, 03:55
Here's a fun one for you guys: that trailer may replace the ingame intro video. Don't remember which dev I was talking to last night that said it, though; I kinda stopped keeping track after midnight or so.

So we're finally going to do away with the 'rawr, look at me I'm a spaceship' video in lieu of what's essentially a rehash of the original intro? :D
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Lyn Farel on 28 Apr 2013, 05:26
Nice vid, really.

Though I am not so sure that it tells that death is mandatory to become a capsuleer, it can interpreted in many ways I think, though yes, it bothers me too.

It's grittier though. Like no soft cloning.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Pieter Tuulinen on 28 Apr 2013, 05:50
Soft cloning is an idea that will simply come back the moment that Capsuleers can do ANYTHING out of their ship ingame that carries a risk of death.

This is a given. The concept that if you die in a ship it's really of little concern but if you die in a different part of the game, we delete your character? That's not happening. Ever.

Given that, and extrapolating that we WILL do things out of our ships in RP that carry a risk of death, that same logical justification for Soft-cloning still exists.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Esna Pitoojee on 28 Apr 2013, 06:50
Despite my earlier criticism, I'd approve of this becoming the intro video. The old-old intro video was frankly a bit long, even if some of the art assets were beautiful and the storyline nicely fleshed out. The current one is... merely eh. This new one strikes a nice balance of brevity, explanation, and :stuffblowingup:.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Arnulf Ogunkoya on 28 Apr 2013, 07:35
As to the getting killed to enter the pod thing. Why would anyone who is completely against the idea of cloning become a podder in the first place?

I've always run with the idea that Arnulf kept bio samples & sperm samples in storage long before he became a capsuleer. It's just a sensible precaution for anyone who works in space & has any notions of having children. Plus they need something to seed your clone biomass with and to pull your genetic template from.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Khloe on 28 Apr 2013, 07:38
That was pretty freakin' amazing.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Iwan Terpalen on 28 Apr 2013, 07:55
I found it interesting to see a literal row of capsuleers getting their first clones at the same time. It seemed like a mass production scene to me; a thematic departure from the idea that capsuleers are beautiful, unique snowflakes, with the universe lining up to fellate them.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Sepherim on 28 Apr 2013, 08:40
It would work nicely as an intro video. :)
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 28 Apr 2013, 09:08
It would. It's not going to do very much to slow down the nubbins wandering into The Summit convinced that their characters are sitting in a cockpit somewhere with a literal box of doughnuts, though.

For some reason, CCP's never gotten very good at explaining that bit. Perhaps it's "weird" enough that they feel it would interfere with marketing?
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Esna Pitoojee on 28 Apr 2013, 09:19
As to the getting killed to enter the pod thing. Why would anyone who is completely against the idea of cloning become a podder in the first place?

Why do people who -naturally- don't want to die IRL do things like get in airplane cockpits, jump off cliffs with only some thin fabric strapped to their back to stop them - or hell, even go out and drive on the streets? Because they presume - somewhat rightfully - that they can do it more safely, with more precautions, with less room for error than those who come before them. Same thing goes with capsuleering - you can become a capsuleer and, by taking certain absolute precautions, reduce your risk of being podded to near zero.

Quote
I've always run with the idea that Arnulf kept bio samples & sperm samples in storage long before he became a capsuleer. It's just a sensible precaution for anyone who works in space & has any notions of having children. Plus they need something to seed your clone biomass with and to pull your genetic template from.

I think most people keep similar things about for the same reason. The unhappiness with the cloned-at-creation trope has more to with (at least for players with conservative Amarrian characters) the feeling that by the time you step into the game, you are already an abomination and anathema to the people you were hoping to fight for. Why fight for a side that views you on the same level as the enemies you face down in space? In the past there was the option to take those heavy precautions to avoid podding, and if podding finally did come to treat it as a fork-in-the-road storyline choice.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Louella Dougans on 28 Apr 2013, 09:30
It would. It's not going to do very much to slow down the nubbins wandering into The Summit convinced that their characters are sitting in a cockpit somewhere with a literal box of doughnuts, though.

For some reason, CCP's never gotten very good at explaining that bit. Perhaps it's "weird" enough that they feel it would interfere with marketing?

I found it a bit curious how similar the apparent view presented to the pilot, was to the actual game interface.

WARP DRIVE ACTIVE


Also, regimented training of new pilots, destruction of original body to facilitate easier transfer to clone existence, is still I think compatible with the existence of a different training regime in the past.

Creation of a new body already fitted with implants vs attempting to install implants on an existing body has a precedent:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/implanting-microchips-into-insects-us-military-develops-cybug-spies/14380

It's easier to insert chips into insects as they metamorphose, rather than attempt surgery on adult insects.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Samira Kernher on 28 Apr 2013, 11:28
As to the getting killed to enter the pod thing. Why would anyone who is completely against the idea of cloning become a podder in the first place?

Capsuleering has existed for over a century now. Of that, only in the last decade has it included cloning as part of the mix. Cloning is not integral to being a capsuleer, and the only reason it's such a widespread part of the program now is because it's been mandated by CONCORD. If there was an option to not use clones, I'd expect some capsuleers (especially Amarr) would take it.

Also, what Esna said. Just because cloning is part of the mix, doesn't mean you have to treat it as something guaranteed to happen, or unavoidable. Death is part of the mix for many dangerous jobs, such as the military, that doesn't keep people from signing up for it anyway. And you probably have less chance of dying as a capsuleer than you would as an independent bridge captain--that's why they've been training capsuleers for as long as they have, afterall. They have superior performance, massively reduced cost, and greatly expanded ship capabilities (freeing up all that crew space for additional weapons, cargo, defensive systems, etc).

Capsuleering is a superior life choice, with or without cloning.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Arnulf Ogunkoya on 28 Apr 2013, 14:55
As to the getting killed to enter the pod thing. Why would anyone who is completely against the idea of cloning become a podder in the first place?

Capsuleering has existed for over a century now. Of that, only in the last decade has it included cloning as part of the mix. Cloning is not integral to being a capsuleer, and the only reason it's such a widespread part of the program now is because it's been mandated by CONCORD. If there was an option to not use clones, I'd expect some capsuleers (especially Amarr) would take it.

Also, what Esna said. Just because cloning is part of the mix, doesn't mean you have to treat it as something guaranteed to happen, or unavoidable. Death is part of the mix for many dangerous jobs, such as the military, that doesn't keep people from signing up for it anyway. And you probably have less chance of dying as a capsuleer than you would as an independent bridge captain--that's why they've been training capsuleers for as long as they have, afterall. They have superior performance, massively reduced cost, and greatly expanded ship capabilities (freeing up all that crew space for additional weapons, cargo, defensive systems, etc).

Capsuleering is a superior life choice, with or without cloning.

I am, personally, sceptical about the idea that the Empire views all clones as anathema. I thought the Godflesh doctrine only applied to heirs, and was tied up with the reverence of the emperor's person (or that of a potential emperor)?

But in a big Empire lots of theological quirks can turn up & still be in the mainstream, so please don't take this as a doing it wrong comment.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Esna Pitoojee on 28 Apr 2013, 16:05
Thread probably needs to be split at this point.

The short version, Arnulf, is that debate is still open in the Amarr RP community as well. Esna's views are closer to what you described, but as CCP has continuously hinted that there are some who do care, there are a lot of characters who take the view that it applies to all.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Samira Kernher on 28 Apr 2013, 19:15
As to the getting killed to enter the pod thing. Why would anyone who is completely against the idea of cloning become a podder in the first place?

Capsuleering has existed for over a century now. Of that, only in the last decade has it included cloning as part of the mix. Cloning is not integral to being a capsuleer, and the only reason it's such a widespread part of the program now is because it's been mandated by CONCORD. If there was an option to not use clones, I'd expect some capsuleers (especially Amarr) would take it.

Also, what Esna said. Just because cloning is part of the mix, doesn't mean you have to treat it as something guaranteed to happen, or unavoidable. Death is part of the mix for many dangerous jobs, such as the military, that doesn't keep people from signing up for it anyway. And you probably have less chance of dying as a capsuleer than you would as an independent bridge captain--that's why they've been training capsuleers for as long as they have, afterall. They have superior performance, massively reduced cost, and greatly expanded ship capabilities (freeing up all that crew space for additional weapons, cargo, defensive systems, etc).

Capsuleering is a superior life choice, with or without cloning.

I am, personally, sceptical about the idea that the Empire views all clones as anathema. I thought the Godflesh doctrine only applied to heirs, and was tied up with the reverence of the emperor's person (or that of a potential emperor)?

But in a big Empire lots of theological quirks can turn up & still be in the mainstream, so please don't take this as a doing it wrong comment.

It's only a religious law for heirs. The principle of Godflesh still applies to everyone, it's just not illegal to clone as it is with heirs.

Amarr cultural views on death and cloning (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Death#Amarr) are controversial. Traditional views are that the soul goes to God upon death, and clones have no soul. While there's an active progressive movement arguing that the soul migrates to the new clone, it's still controversial and probably wouldn't be followed by many conservative Amarr.

And that's just on the religious front. There's many reasons why one can be against cloning. Yet the benefits of being a capsuleer are still massive, so one doesn't have to like cloning to want to become a capsuleer.

Also yeah, should probably be split.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: GoGo Yubari on 28 Apr 2013, 20:39
GOD DAMMIT YEAH.

It's awesome and looking at some of the fanfest videos too... it's amazing how a game I now haven't played for years can still move and inspire me.

Yeah.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: lallara zhuul on 29 Apr 2013, 01:59
It's pretty, and portrays both games very badly.

Combat in EVE is hammering function keys and twiddling with a laggy interface with your right mouse button, not swooping in a massive Star Wars like epic fight.

It is lag to the extreme.

DUST is your regular FPS where you spawn and die, spawn and die, spawn and die, ad nauseam, nothing epic about that.

Also I love how the trailer shot down all this 'being the ship' nonsense out of the capsuleer interface.

PS. You can't die outside the pod in the game, ever. Because all of the game happens inside the pod.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Iwan Terpalen on 29 Apr 2013, 02:38
PS. You can't die outside the pod in the game, ever. Because all of the game happens inside the pod.
Well, except for the part where you're sitting in a small apartment with an inexplicably locked door (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Hill_4:_The_Room).
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Aelisha Montenagre on 29 Apr 2013, 02:50
PS. You can't die outside the pod in the game, ever. Because all of the game happens inside the pod.
Well, except for the part where you're sitting in a small apartment with an inexplicably locked door (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Hill_4:_The_Room).

In a way, we die out of the pod whenever we press the WiS button... or am I mistaking that dying inside feeling?

All joking aside, I thoroughly enjoyed the trailer for what I considered it to be: day 1 intro to the very basics of EVE lore that brings people up to speed on the essentials and leaves a lot of questions hanging.  Questions that may lead them to further engagement with the lore as a result.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: BloodBird on 29 Apr 2013, 04:58
Really a great piece of work, but I dislike the short bit about the Empire supposedly losing their grasp on power. It's complete bullshit, and added only to make new players feel powerful and special, beyond what they might already be as capsuleers.

In order to be a Capsuleer, you end in one out of two camps. The NPC capsuleers under the direct employ of the Empires and those that work for CONCORD, or an "independent" capsuleer like all the players. The independents even are not really that independent.

Even in null-space you have to pay a monthly fee to CONCORD to keep your *license* active or be dis-allowed to even activate your capsule and undock. Yes, paying your fees to CCP to play the game is in canon as a capsuleer license fee.

The market, your movements, your actions, all monitored by a division of CONCORD.

The full weight of the capsuleers, independent or no, are still overall good for the Empires. The taxes you pay, all the time, the actions you make - how many people do the Empire's work for them through missions alone? How many loyalists are there out there helping one government or another through whatever means they feel like employing, even if independent? How many are out in null "building their empires" and at the same time setting up infrastructure in wild-space and keeping the pirate factions down by intercepting their patrols and smacking them down?

Weighted against that are the capsuleers who pirate - their own kind and still help run the economy in some way - or suicide gank, or declare their loyalty to other, non-empire factions who are often direct enemies of theirs. Even then CONCORD are aware of where they are and what they do.

In short, we have had this conversation in many topics before, and frankly that part about the Empires losing their grasp is not supported by in-game realities. The PF, supported by game-mechanics, speaks against it. It was not needed to ad that bit. Except to make the new guys feel more special. "I'm rebelling against the system, yay."
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Jade Constantine on 29 Apr 2013, 08:08
Really a great piece of work, but I dislike the short bit about the Empire supposedly losing their grasp on power. It's complete bullshit, and added only to make new players feel powerful and special, beyond what they might already be as capsuleers.

In order to be a Capsuleer, you end in one out of two camps. The NPC capsuleers under the direct employ of the Empires and those that work for CONCORD, or an "independent" capsuleer like all the players. The independents even are not really that independent.

Even in null-space you have to pay a monthly fee to CONCORD to keep your *license* active or be dis-allowed to even activate your capsule and undock. Yes, paying your fees to CCP to play the game is in canon as a capsuleer license fee.

The market, your movements, your actions, all monitored by a division of CONCORD.

The full weight of the capsuleers, independent or no, are still overall good for the Empires. The taxes you pay, all the time, the actions you make - how many people do the Empire's work for them through missions alone? How many loyalists are there out there helping one government or another through whatever means they feel like employing, even if independent? How many are out in null "building their empires" and at the same time setting up infrastructure in wild-space and keeping the pirate factions down by intercepting their patrols and smacking them down?

Weighted against that are the capsuleers who pirate - their own kind and still help run the economy in some way - or suicide gank, or declare their loyalty to other, non-empire factions who are often direct enemies of theirs. Even then CONCORD are aware of where they are and what they do.

In short, we have had this conversation in many topics before, and frankly that part about the Empires losing their grasp is not supported by in-game realities. The PF, supported by game-mechanics, speaks against it. It was not needed to ad that bit. Except to make the new guys feel more special. "I'm rebelling against the system, yay."


Listening to the keynotes it really seemed that the origins video did express the companies view for the future of the game. Aspirational rather than current reality perhaps but things have moved a long way already. I can remember being condemned as a terrible roleplayer because I played Jade as having access to clone backups outside the capsule (ie the sequential instance being effectively immortal and unkillable) - then we had portable burning scanners, soft cloning etc. Then I was told my character was still a slave of concord because they owned the cloning stations - I installed a clone on my own bays on board a Titan and asked now what?

Reality is CCP want capsuleers to feel powerful and have set up a system of decaying npc hegemonies 
Specifically to be kicked over by the transhuman revolution to come, it's pretty much their backstory.
Listening to future visions of truly independent nullsec, player built destructible stargates and exploration of virgin territories on the verges of space, well, its difficult to see that anyone really believes in the supremacy of npc empires lasting much longer.

Do we like the future where the power of the Amarrian or Caldari empires is eclipsed by Goonswarm and its coalitions? Where the might of the gallentean navy is laughable against the supercap deployments PL can manage? Where small cabals of capsuleers can destabilise the fortunes of the Matari republic with market speculations on epic scale?

Well, like it or not that's where we are and putting ones head in the sand and refusing to believe in the fading prestige and vanishing prowess of the old empires may well be your character's view of New Eden, and that is your personal choice. I suspect its not a viewpoint that CCP prime fiction, plot teams, and video makers are going to be reinforcing much in the future if their comments at fan fest are to be taken at face value however.

Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 29 Apr 2013, 09:05
I'll be on my way out when that happens.  =/  while my gameplay revolves around other players my focus and rp has always been tied to the empires and their supporters. If they are removed from the picture and the only mirror we have left is the derpery of most capsuleer groups, it doesn't leave much room for good pf plotting from the writers. =[
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: lallara zhuul on 29 Apr 2013, 09:23
Also what contradicts that quite forcefully is the fact that most capsuleers are in high-sec working for the empires directly or indirectly, even the markets that the null sec sell their stuff in is in the empires.

At the moment there is no real way to create solid infrastructure in the null sec areas comparable to the empires, before that all the chest beating on the transhuman revolution or the importance of the null sec folk is just words in the wind.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Jade Constantine on 29 Apr 2013, 09:37
I'll be on my way out when that happens.  =/  while my gameplay revolves around other players my focus and rp has always been tied to the empires and their supporters. If they are removed from the picture and the only mirror we have left is the derpery of most capsuleer groups, it doesn't leave much room for good pf plotting from the writers. =[

It took several hundred years for the Roman Empire to fall, plenty of time for decent roleplay in the ruins and civil wars that attend the passing of monolithic power structures yet to come.

I do agree with you that the way the largest player alliances portray themselves is pretty crappy on balance, but at this point continuing to make believe that the npc empires are not on their way to being out evolved and discarded to the cultural rubbish tips of history is a bit like waiting for the naval officer throughout the whole narrative of lord of the flies.

Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Jade Constantine on 29 Apr 2013, 09:48
Also what contradicts that quite forcefully is the fact that most capsuleers are in high-sec working for the empires directly or indirectly, even the markets that the null sec sell their stuff in is in the empires.

At the moment there is no real way to create solid infrastructure in the null sec areas comparable to the empires, before that all the chest beating on the transhuman revolution or the importance of the null sec folk is just words in the wind.

Well working for doesn't automatically equate loyal to. Agent running is merc work really, the huge majority of capsuleers have next to zero actual loyalist sentiment and would swap sides and work elsewhere the moment the advantage dictates. As for he lack of infrastructure that's again the sense of what CCP seemed to be implying they would address in the keynotes and upcoming expansions.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 29 Apr 2013, 10:54
I'll be on my way out when that happens. 

I have to admit, I don't really understand this angle on RP, or the one that says "Oh God, CCP has ruined [empire of choice] because [insert dramatic current event here]."

It's like saying that my RL "role" as an American got ruined by 9/11. Yes, I'm something of a civil libertarian, and I believe in the rule of law. Gitmo disgusts me right down to my toes. But the cultural and political shifts of my nation do not change me; nor does its arguable decline as a world power diminish me as a person.

My disagreement with bits of history I have lived through does not position me very well to insist that the wheels should stop.

Eve is a living universe. That is a feature, not a bug. If it takes something treasured away, it gives something back-- like the new motivations or even new loyalties that arise from seeing something you love crumble into dust. Sometimes the storytelling isn't perfect, but it's not like George R.R. Martin is likely available for hire (at least affordably).

Our characters live in "interesting times," in the sense of a Chinese curse. Things fall apart. The center cannot hold. Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.

Jade has a very positive take on this, IC and OOC. IC as OOC, I regard her optimism as downright Panglossian: capsuleers are deeply unsuited to trying to maintain any kind of civilization. Even baseline human beings have a hell of a time with it.

But, you know, that's not necessarily a bad thing. GRIMDARK makes for excellent roleplay, and I'd be only too happy to be along for the ride as old orders crumble towards a new Dark Age of warring gods and their tribes of luckless worshippers. Even if I weren't playing a character who walks the border between philosopher, predatory psychopath, and evil spirit, nostalgia for the way things used to be is itself a powerful dramatic motivator. If my order is based around a vase, and someone comes along and smashes it, I'll just have to go and found the Order of the Broken Vase.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Ché Biko on 29 Apr 2013, 11:15
Ah, there be the reasons for my shivers.
I also had the idea that there are interesting times ahead, both good and bad.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Louella Dougans on 29 Apr 2013, 12:31
Also I love how the trailer shot down all this 'being the ship' nonsense out of the capsuleer interface.
I found it a bit curious how similar the apparent view presented to the pilot, was to the actual game interface.
WARP DRIVE ACTIVE
Yeah, I noticed that too.

I'll be on my way out when that happens. 
I have to admit, I don't really understand this angle on RP

The way I see it, is, that if the npc empires are irrelevant, the setting is irrelevant. The Amarr-Minmatar conflict, when reduced to X is more profitable than Y per hour of gameplay, doesn't seem as interesting.
What reason is there for people to fight?
e.g. Andreus Ixiris and Vikarion are utterly opposed to each other, because one is Gallente, the other Caldari. When the Empires are irrelevant, then that opposition is irrelevant, and becomes an obstacle to mutual profit. The only reasons to continue opposition are spite and stupidity. Does that make for compelling gameplay?

When the setting becomes irrelevant, then development stagnates. Investment in the game background is not justifiable to the developer. Background material is expensive, because of the requirements for translation. We saw that with Incarna. Untold thousands of dev hours allegedly spent to make clothes, and no-one was available to write fluff news pieces.

There's three things that make a game, that I can see. Setting, mechanics, community. People play some buggy games because they really like the setting. e.g. Vampire-the Masquerade-Bloodlines. that was a buggy game, yes? The whole Elder Scrolls, also full of bugs. People still get really into those games, because they have a good setting, and also a community of modders and twiddlers that do all sorts of stuff, that counteracts the poor mechanics of the games.

There are other games that have a blandish setting, but good mechanics and community.

EVE... the mechanics aren't great. And when the setting is irrelevant, there's only community. And that's not really enough, is it?

Currently, depending on what news sources you look at, it would seem the major 0.0 blocks have an agreement not to fight each other. Players in those blocks find themselves with nothing to do, except to speculate about why the other blocks don't want to fight, and it all comes down to allegations of RMT and bots. There's talk about "crafting a narrative" to justify invading other blocks, but the alliance fleet commanders are hesitant because they don't like the boring mechanics of sovereignty invasions. The rumour mills also allege that the fleet commanders don't want their RMT botnets disrupted.

If that's the way that CCP wants to go, then that's the way CCP wants to go, but I would feel that Green/Grey/Gold/Rust Ships Online wouldn't be as compelling a game, and wouldn't hold interest for long.

We'll see.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 29 Apr 2013, 13:15
The way I see it, is, that if the npc empires are irrelevant, the setting is irrelevant.

Ancient Rome remains relevant to this very day. It undergirds massive portions of Western culture. The Greco-Roman gods remained staples of European culture for centuries after no significant number of people worshipped them anymore.

"Fall" and "disappear" are wholly different things, as are "dead" and "irrelevant."

Quote
e.g. Andreus Ixiris and Vikarion are utterly opposed to each other, because one is Gallente, the other Caldari. When the Empires are irrelevant, then that opposition is irrelevant, and becomes an obstacle to mutual profit. The only reasons to continue opposition are spite and stupidity. Does that make for compelling gameplay?

It certainly can. GRIMDARK, remember?

Presume for a moment that people are merely animals, properly wired to operate in groups about the size of a modest village (140 or so individuals). Anyone from outside that circle, we need reasons NOT to kill, or at least to care whether they live or die (scarcity may cease to exist, but animals that evolved in an environment of scarcity will continue to act as though it does. I suspect anybody who owns multiple cats will have some idea whereof I speak). Civilizations function largely by finding ways to expand that circle (adding national identity as part of the "circle of care," for example).

The breakdown of civilization, in that case, doesn't eliminate reasons to fight; it multiplies them by removing reasons not to.

(Did I ever mention that I come to my philanthropic tendencies by a back road?)

Quote
When the setting becomes irrelevant, then development stagnates.

Thing is, a setting of a collapsing civilization is the opposite of irrelevant. It's all-encompassing. Living in Europe at the time of Rome's sack by Germanic tribes, you wouldn't have considered it unimportant even if you'd personally been a Visigoth.

Carefully chronicling a descent into chaos-- tragedy on the scale of civilizations-- makes for a brilliant story. "Hamlet" isn't irrelevant or stagnant just because the hero dies at the end, and nobody said the empires were going to go "poof" at the halfway mark. Even if they did, there'd still be plenty of story left to tell about capsuleers, surviving baseliners, and pirate factions fighting over the corpses.

And then the Sleepers can get fed up with getting their elaborate virtual reality rig raided and mount an invasion of their own.

Quote
... I would feel that Green/Grey/Gold/Rust Ships Online wouldn't be as compelling a game, and wouldn't hold interest for long.

Again, "dead" and gone are wholly different things. Even if the Empire were to break up into warring fiefdoms, someone would still be saying, "Yes, this dropsuit was designed by the greatest artisans of that high and bygone age [that existed last year]. We just don't have engineers like that anymore. Wear it [and the others that we'll have manufactured to replace it when you inevitably get repeatedly offed] with honor."
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Louella Dougans on 29 Apr 2013, 13:49
Relevant to characters vs relevant to Players.

The NPC powers of EVE have been relevant to characters, because it is the NPC powers that design ships, provide capsule training, and give reasons to fight.

If and when player corporations are allowed to design ships (does that ship design competition count?), or have buddy referrals start in their own space, or various other things that replace NPC functions, then the setting, whether it is of flourishing or fading civilisations is entirely irrelevant to both player and character.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 29 Apr 2013, 14:03
Relevant to characters vs relevant to Players.

The NPC powers of EVE have been relevant to characters, because it is the NPC powers that design ships, provide capsule training, and give reasons to fight.

If and when player corporations are allowed to design ships (does that ship design competition count?), or have buddy referrals start in their own space, or various other things that replace NPC functions, then the setting, whether it is of flourishing or fading civilisations is entirely irrelevant to both player and character.

Perhaps, but I very much doubt we're ever going to get anywhere near that far. For one thing, null-dweller wish-fulfillment fantasies aside, high security space is NOT going away until CCP decides that life is not worth living.

You're mistaking a changing canonical background for a vanishing canonical background; I don't see that happening at all, especially with CCP's renewed support for its storyline.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Louella Dougans on 29 Apr 2013, 14:16
Relevant to characters vs relevant to Players.

The NPC powers of EVE have been relevant to characters, because it is the NPC powers that design ships, provide capsule training, and give reasons to fight.

If and when player corporations are allowed to design ships (does that ship design competition count?), or have buddy referrals start in their own space, or various other things that replace NPC functions, then the setting, whether it is of flourishing or fading civilisations is entirely irrelevant to both player and character.

Perhaps, but I very much doubt we're ever going to get anywhere near that far. For one thing, null-dweller wish-fulfillment fantasies aside, high security space is NOT going away until CCP decides that life is not worth living.

You're mistaking a changing canonical background for a vanishing canonical background; I don't see that happening at all, especially with CCP's renewed support for its storyline.

If the canonical background has no effect on anything a player may wish to do, then it might as well have vanished, regardless of how many books, films, TV series are based on the EVE setting.

If it's Tuesday, the Empress is blonde.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Esna Pitoojee on 29 Apr 2013, 14:23
If nullsec alliances are to be spun as the "new empires", I see an additional two problems there. One is the lack of truly deep cultures - "I have a smoking bee on my flag and you have a little virus on yours" doesn't really amount to a culture, let alone compare to that possessed by the vast and varied Big 4 or pirate factions.

The second is the fluidity of nullsec politics.

"GRR ARGH YOU ARE MY DEEPEST ENEMY AND WE SHALL FIGHT FOREVER!"
*Expansion released, nullsec politics shift, blocs move around.*
"My brother!"
*Coalition failcascades for some reason, remnants merge into two others.*
"GRR ARGH ENEMY KILL" etc

It's not very condusive to writing deep, long-term stories about, and that's before we even get into trying to interact with them.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 29 Apr 2013, 14:28
If the canonical background has no effect on anything a player may wish to do, then it might as well have vanished, regardless of how many books, films, TV series are based on the EVE setting.

If it's Tuesday, the Empress is blonde.

Louella, I'm pretty much flat certain this isn't what empires seeing their power wane means. Among other things, that would mean dropping all NPC faction wars, which is not going to happen even if I do think they could stand to shake up the current ones a bit.

The empires could all collapse into civil war, and there would STILL be capsuleers playing favorites. CCP hasn't emitted the slightest whiff of eliminating empire sovereignty or otherwise taking them and their cultures and beliefs and distinctions and agents off the stage. Why are we talking as though they were?

For my money, the real horror would be writing a rich, detailed world and then just letting it sit there and turn slowly to stone while capsuleers whirled pointlessly around a static edifice. I've been in worlds that did that; the sense of futility eventually crushed my will to continue, even though I loved every other part of it.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Samira Kernher on 29 Apr 2013, 14:32
Losing grip does not mean lost completely. People are jumping to the extreme. Capsuleers do represent a grave threat to the empires, as they are amassing resources and military might approaching that of the empires, but that does not mean the empires are going to just shrivel up and die.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 29 Apr 2013, 14:37
Losing grip does not mean lost completely. People are jumping to the extreme. Capsuleers do represent a grave threat to the empires, as they are amassing resources and military might approaching that of the empires, but that does not mean the empires are going to just shrivel up and die.

Agreed. Even if CCP is planning a story of "ascension" in which a very few ascend to near-godhood on the backs of the many, bringing a crushing age of tyranny and darkness to New Eden, it is a tale that will not reach its bitter conclusion until long after the game has finally been discontinued.

A few hundred years, say.

At which point, even if the game is still around, I probably won't be.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Jade Constantine on 29 Apr 2013, 15:33
Losing grip does not mean lost completely. People are jumping to the extreme. Capsuleers do represent a grave threat to the empires, as they are amassing resources and military might approaching that of the empires, but that does not mean the empires are going to just shrivel up and die.

Agreed. Even if CCP is planning a story of "ascension" in which a very few ascend to near-godhood on the backs of the many, bringing a crushing age of tyranny and darkness to New Eden, it is a tale that will not reach its bitter conclusion until long after the game has finally been discontinued.

A few hundred years, say.

At which point, even if the game is still around, I probably won't be.



I see hi sec in a time of diminishing npc empire power (with the player led nullsec barbarians on the periphery) as being similar to the scenario described in Asimovs Foundation series. We as players are in a role with privileged insight and perception of the break up and fading out of imperial power but these things will take generations. In the Foundation books the average citizen of the galactic core had no idea the empire was a rotting corpse for hundreds of years while generals and warlords fought increasingly desperate campaigns on the frontiers. When it all came down might be analogous to concord shutting off their conflict limiters and all hispec becoming nullsec and the barbarians eating the corpse of the throneworlds , but that wouldn't ever actually happen within the lifespan of the game for obvious reasons.

In fact in the shorter term I could see nullsec being allowed to expand outwards in new space while the static controlled current nullsec might eventually go,to low or hisec with the payoff being player alliances getting a cut of all transactions and taxes. Thus effectively becoming proper empires themselves.

Anyway, doom and gloom scenarios probably overstated. But CCP do need to grow some balls and introduce proper reasons for nullsec alliances to fight each other in earnest again though. Without huge scale slaughter, devestation, fiscal annihilation and gnashing of teeth there really won't be much of a look in for the little guy.

They could also use an expansion or two to rebuild the alliance system, introduce political and ideological traits (advantages and disadvantages) and systems to differentiate alliances in game mechanics and force the leadership to make actual choice and sacrifices in the interests of a more interesting player led nullsec with actual variety and diversity.

But that's another story.


Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Graelyn on 29 Apr 2013, 23:34
Unfortunately, these good ideas will have to grapple with the inherent realities of gaming/nerd communities; for every aspiring Harbinger of Change and Glory intent of Building the Grand New Paradigm, there are 10,000 well-organized mouthbreathers whose only goals are to find nice things, shit on them until they collapse from the sheer fecal weight, and use the pile of rubble to reach the stars and draw penises on them.

CCP talks a lot of game about giving power to players, but they know better; they spend a LOT more effort trying to protect EVE from them.

tl;dr - Don't hope for nice things. We can't have nice things.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: lallara zhuul on 30 Apr 2013, 02:11
Rich and detailed world?

Capsuleers a grave threat?

Power comparable to the empires?

Three very common parts of player fiction.

Backstorywise CCP has given very little to the players, the players have pretty much filled in the blanks, through extrapolation, using real life as a reference point, other sci-fi sources and what they dreamed that a sci-fi setting should be.

Very little of what any roleplayer in EVE interacts with, or uses in their roleplay has anything to do with CCP created content. Most of what they use is player created content that only references CCPs material and is very rarely directly based or reliant on it. Most backstories are exactly that, so personalities based on those backstories... you get the picture.

Mainly because of CCPs hardon for retcons.

Capsuleers are not a threat to the empires in any shape of form.

CONCORD dictates completely how they interact with those outside of the capsuleer class.
That is one CONCORDs primary functions.

The power thing?

You have empires that have been taking advantage of the resource rush that has come with space exploration for centuries, for two thousand years in the case of the Empire.
The empires have colonized planets, built the infrastructures that exploit the capsuleers, they have populations in the trillions and what do capsuleers have?

Supercaps, space stations and POSes.

Which are all manned by the people recruited from the populations of the empires.

Try to fly your titan against the empires when your flight crew tells you to fuck off.
Try to use your POS without crew on your mining ship or the POS.
Same goes for your space stations.

Capsuleers have no loyalty of, or power over baseliners, which make everything that they use work.

Sure, your current crews might stick around during your uprising, but you would have no way to get new crew, without the infrastructure that the empires have to train and educate them.

I really need to eat my brekkies before reading these forums.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Aelisha Montenagre on 30 Apr 2013, 02:14
Pretty much 100% sure that Graelyn's scatographic (I know, not a real word) overview is correct here.  Lore wise, i reckon we'll be seeing a 'reaching outwards, upwards and downwards, element with the reverentially mentioned 'system discovery' stuff and gate building.  Why sack Rome when you have your own new frontiers to explore and open up? 

The first decade has been the birthing pains of the capsuleer 'race' as a mass proliferated entity, with all of the loyalties present in our decisions, be they malign or benevolent.  The next decade?  Personally I expect the next ten years to be the equivalent of the 'troubled childhood' of the capsuleers.  We're going to scrape a few knees and scare the crap out of our 'parents' (the Empires), especially towards the end of the decade when they realise that if they did their job well, we'll eclipse them in the not too distant future (but that doesn't make them any less important in their own right). 

Decade 1: Declaring we're here and intend to stay

Decade 2: Realising our potential within the game world, with all of the fear, heartbreak and potential benefit that entails

Decade 3: ????
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: GoGo Yubari on 30 Apr 2013, 08:08
Capsuleers are not a threat to the empires in any shape of form.

CONCORD dictates completely how they interact with those outside of the capsuleer class.
That is one CONCORDs primary functions.

The power thing?

You have empires that have been taking advantage of the resource rush that has come with space exploration for centuries, for two thousand years in the case of the Empire.
The empires have colonized planets, built the infrastructures that exploit the capsuleers, they have populations in the trillions and what do capsuleers have?

Supercaps, space stations and POSes.

Which are all manned by the people recruited from the populations of the empires.

Try to fly your titan against the empires when your flight crew tells you to fuck off.
Try to use your POS without crew on your mining ship or the POS.
Same goes for your space stations.

Capsuleers have no loyalty of, or power over baseliners, which make everything that they use work.

Sure, your current crews might stick around during your uprising, but you would have no way to get new crew, without the infrastructure that the empires have to train and educate them.

I really need to eat my brekkies before reading these forums.

This is an argument for the ages and it really isn't new even if the trailer sort of brings it back to the fore again. I continue to disagree with Lallara's vision, which is ultimately based on what Lal wants for the game and not on what the game is actually telling him/us. Sorry dude, but that's how it is!

You say "capsuleers are not a threat to the empires in any shape of form"? Well, CCP has been saying the contrary for a long time and they are saying it again. If it hasn't become axiomatic then it should now as it is being reiterated into a defining vision for Eve development.

We can certainly talk about how much that is reflected in game, sure. Or "how much of a threat" in in-game terms. We'll end up talking a lot about what specific mechanics are there simply to facilitate gameplay on an OOC level and what are truly supposed to be representative of the setting. That's possibly an interesting discussion (but a ultimately a digression) and something that has been going on from the beginning, as well.

I also pretty much agree with Jade said here:

I see hi sec in a time of diminishing npc empire power (with the player led nullsec barbarians on the periphery) as being similar to the scenario described in Asimovs Foundation series. We as players are in a role with privileged insight and perception of the break up and fading out of imperial power but these things will take generations. In the Foundation books the average citizen of the galactic core had no idea the empire was a rotting corpse for hundreds of years while generals and warlords fought increasingly desperate campaigns on the frontiers. When it all came down might be analogous to concord shutting off their conflict limiters and all hispec becoming nullsec and the barbarians eating the corpse of the throneworlds , but that wouldn't ever actually happen within the lifespan of the game for obvious reasons.

I think that's pretty spot on.

However, speaking of my game experience, I never met an empire that could keep me down. Sure, I can't topple them or even unseat their sovereignty from a system, but I can keep doing my business without them really being a factor. I can run amok at will in at least low-security space. Capsuleer power is certainly not limitless, but it is vast. And it is growing. They have a great capacity for independent existence. All this certainly amounts to them being a threat.

Also, who says my ship crews have to come from the empires? They could come from 0.0 colonies. Neither do I subscribe to the idea that the empires could pull my plug and restrict me out of doing anything in game. I could be -10 with all empires and still keep on truckin' to a large extent.

But ultimately it comes down to Lallara's vision for Eve being different from mine. I'm just saying that Lal isn't listening to what CCP is saying.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Katrina Oniseki on 30 Apr 2013, 11:21
(http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Benilopax/GrumpyCaldaridis1k.jpg)
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Louella Dougans on 01 May 2013, 12:26
It's probably the same thing as affects every other synthetic setting - fantasy settings, sci fi with/without aliens, etc.

developers write a few things about stuff, forming what looks like a solid wall.

Then thousands of nerds shove their brains into the cracks, and lever it all apart.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Mithfindel on 02 May 2013, 02:36
Something I missed earlier - the grumpy Caldari guy has the Jita monument on the viewscreen behind him.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: BloodBird on 02 May 2013, 03:58
Something I missed earlier - the grumpy Caldari guy has the Jita monument on the viewscreen behind him.

Saw it instantly, helped ID the grumpy State dude as grumpy State dude in Jita 4-4.

You know, in case it wasn't clear who he was supposed to be beholden to.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Sakura Nihil on 02 May 2013, 16:29
(http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Benilopax/GrumpyCaldaridis1k.jpg)

Saw this while I was at Fanfest, cracked the fuck up.

Caldari Commander is not amused! :P
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: lallara zhuul on 02 May 2013, 17:44
stuff
stuff

and

But ultimately it comes down to Lallara's vision for Eve being different from mine. I'm just saying that Lal isn't listening to what CCP is saying.
I'll have to disagree on that.
I'm listening exactly to what Crowd Control Productions is saying.

EVE is not solely an MMORPG, not solely an MMO, but a space-sim.

The chronicles in the beginning were meticulously crafted to portray the player as the capsuleer and the game as the interface of the capsuleer in New Eden.

Then the information coming from CCP itself started to veer away from the reality of the game.

Chronicles and vids released by CCP became more and more empowering and emotionally charged showing clearly different reality in New Eden than the one that the players had in game.

You can see exactly the same mechanisms being utilized to motivate the DUST players.

It won't take long until they will be 'more powerful than the empires'.

This is called Good Marketing.
Propaganda.

It is not a coincidence that the company is called Crowd Control Productions.

Yes, definitely a different view of the game.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: BloodBird on 02 May 2013, 18:19
Thanks. I had forgotten what CCP was short-hand for.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 02 May 2013, 21:50
You may be listening, lallara, but you're suffering a pile of confirmation bias.

Also I love how the trailer shot down all this 'being the ship' nonsense out of the capsuleer interface.

I suppose that jack in the back of the neck was a coat hanger.

And that the absense of a cloning rig, and pod goo, and a pod are also to be taken as gospel canon.

Also, that the instant fire in the eyes of the abruptly-cloned pilot (apparently podded in the same instant as ship destruction) means that the chronicle "Doppelganger," dealing with the cloning process is also retconned.

And that the descriptions of the combat boosters are talking about ... what, turbulence? ... when they talk about sensory input from ship systems.

Oh, wait.

Quote
This is called Good Marketing.

You already understood.

Oh, wait.

Quote
Propaganda.

Maybe not.

See, you seem to understand, basically, what CCP is doing. What I find puzzling is that (1) you seem to want to mine it to support your version of canon (even though it not only fails to fully support your claims but is also flagrantly uncanonical), and (2) you seem to take offense at the puffery common to marketing.

Now, I don't care for marketing, conceptually, myself-- it's a modern dark art, an applied social science whose effects, when well-handled, are so predictable as to make a mockery of our society's supposed belief in free will.

But I don't blame those who use it, and I don't expect purity and truth from an attractive fabric of shadows and dew-dappled cobwebs.

Why are you, bittervet, such an idealist about their marketing when you sneer at all they do?
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Morwen Lagann on 03 May 2013, 06:29
Why are you, bittervet, such an idealist about their marketing when you sneer at all they do?

Because, as an unsubbed bittervet, he is unable to post on the official forums, and instead directs his screeching and wailing here.

The ceaseless complaints of how anyone who treats or attempts to interact with the universe as anything more than only what we see on our computer screens is doing it wrong gets pretty fucking old, though.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Saede Riordan on 03 May 2013, 08:36
Quote
I see hi sec in a time of diminishing npc empire power (with the player led nullsec barbarians on the periphery) as being similar to the scenario described in Asimovs Foundation series. We as players are in a role with privileged insight and perception of the break up and fading out of imperial power but these things will take generations.

Incidentally, this is one of the main premises of my corporation.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: lallara zhuul on 06 May 2013, 03:37
Try not to pay your pilot license extension and play the game.

And to extend on the perception of a capsuleer being a the player.

Then it means that all CCPs good marketing is IC propaganda.

Therefore all this demi-god powerful stuff is nothing but.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Myyona on 06 May 2013, 04:59
The general rule is that only human matters, in this case the players.

Essentially, the empires do not matter because they are non-player, pretty simple. But, as long as the players either will not or cannot be trusted to take over certain game mechanics, the empires will not go away as they represent those game mechanics. As such, the players are already more important and powerful than the empires while the opposite is also true as you cannot play the game without following the game mechanics.

Stating that the players will become even more powerful in the future is just a fancy way of saying "we will implement new things for you to do in the future".

Maybe I can better formulate it as; without the player there is no game, without the game there is no player.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Aria Jenneth on 07 May 2013, 00:13
Try not to pay your pilot license extension and play the game.

And to extend on the perception of a capsuleer being a the player.

Then it means that all CCPs good marketing is IC propaganda.

Therefore all this demi-god powerful stuff is nothing but.

When I was 12 years old, I ran into a couple of classmates with this fascinating red box with a picture of a dragon on the cover doing battle with a hero with a shining sword. The box cover read,

Dungeons & Dragons
Basic Rules

Naturally, I was enthralled.

Does that mean that the cover art was marketing?

Um. Yes, of course it was.

Does that mean that the promise of sword and sorcery heroism the box promised was somehow fraudulent because I never played a fighter, never personally played a character who fought a red dragon, and any character built using the rules provided in that box, which covered the first three levels of a typically twenty-level progression, would have died horribly in direct combat against even so teeny-weeny a red dragon as was portrayed on that box cover?

The three "Pathfinder" (the true heir to the D&D name, by my book) bestiaries within thirty feet of this chair I'm sitting in two and a half decades later say, "not so much."

Just because something is used as part of a marketing scheme doesn't mean it isn't a genuine thematic element. CCP has dwelled for a long time on the concept of capsuleers as demigods, and on the rise of a new and arguably monstrous class of humanity much to the distress of old orders.

Is it attractive? Yes. Is it, in fact, marketing? Conceptually, maybe not, but its attractiveness means that it's a good way to hook people who would like to feel powerful. That's a sizeable chunk of the population. Now-- is it puffery on account of giving players a sense of power and influence that is at least partially illusory? Yes.

Is it part of Eve's story? Yes.

Romance novels sell on their "good bits," as hinted at by their covers. Action novels sell on the excitement and adventure they contain, as hinted at by their covers. If one of these has more depth than the cover suggests, I applaud it, but I don't blame it for not wanting to market itself on its deep and sensitive examination of the human spirit-- or for failing to mention that it's not ALL "good bits" or zap zap ka-blam.

As for "IC propaganda" ... I don't think our characters got to see this trailer, lallara. It's largely eye candy-- a romance novel cover. It's there to display a Navy Slicer's shapely curves and hint at an intriguing story. That's it. That's all. And it can scarcely be blamed for failing to mention that the Navy Slicer spends most of the game fully clothed.
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: Vincent Pryce on 07 May 2013, 04:00

  DAT SLICER
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/---VKf0pDig8/ThINlWXai8I/AAAAAAAAAGI/ov_uDayC6As/s1600/slicer.jpg)
Title: Re: EVE - Origins Trailer
Post by: lallara zhuul on 21 May 2013, 03:18
Now that I've had a while to actually think about this I'll have to Aria about the perfect example for this.

The red box, love it to bits, brought me to roleplaying, etc.

The picture on the red box is art, I was ten when I came across it and I never thought I would be running after dragons in the game. Mainly because I had had encounters with those adventure book thingies where you went by the numbers, I knew how perilous adventuring was.

There was also one of those in the Basic set, which gave a very good peek into the world of D&D and roleplaying, with betrayal, combat and death of a comrade.

I never came across any marketing connected to roleplaying games, there was the Atlantic ocean between me and all the hubbub with the Devil and all that. Roleplaying has always been an underground activity and even the age of internet has not dragged PnP out of cellars and living rooms.

Only Role-Playing that the common population knew was sexual until the twenty first century.

But I digress.

This is Dungeons and Dragons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojYxAUQEbV8) when it meets marketing.
It is a trailer to the godawful 2000 D&D movie where magic swords were lightsabers, elves were comic sidekicks and dragons were just weapons of mass destruction.

Another example that is the disparity between the game 'reality' and the stories within it is the Forgotten Realms setting.

R.A.Salvatore did pretty much the same to it as TonyG did to EVE, without the misogynistic bullshit and changing of the lore.

His characters are completely and utterly incapable of doing anything that they do within the rules of the game.

The disparity between the reality of the setting and the reality shown by stories and marketing linked to the setting is not a new thing.

All I am saying that it is there in EVE as well.

And it is as blatant as it is in other settings.

It is just, to me, more interesting to see EVE as the player being the capsuleer than actually believing that the characters are real entities.

A puppeteer creating meat puppets that he/she gives names to, who selects them from vats of capsule compatible gene materiel.
He/she sculpts them to his/her liking, poses them with a rictus on their face for a vanity photo and uses them to control ships within New Eden.
Through the interface given to us by CCP.
To pass time some of the puppeteers play their doll games with their meat puppets and pretend they have magical castles and sex with each other.
Filling the Destiny of a demented demi-god.

Jaysus, this is turning all kinds of meta now.
Better go find some brekkies.