Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 08 Apr 2013, 22:04
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So, I've been successfully 'baited' into speaking about this Elusenia project (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=215120&p=1), formerly D'estinia, after a particularly meta-comment and a few others...let me list out the literary objectives of the project.
- Anti-grimdark; capsuleers have all this money and power, so why don't they put it towards good, instead? While this has been done before, Elusenia differs in that it is seeking to be a political entity that actively engages with society, rather than reject it in the form of refuges that seem more popular amongst RPers.
- Gallente without Federation; one of the distinct advantages of the Gallente faction is that loyalty or association with the Federation is not required. Elusenia is definitely not Federation, but is definitely Gallentean. It explores how democracy (in all its facets, not just political) can be applied when you have a money and infrastructure to support it. There's some FP articles I'm taking direct inspiration from.
- Planetary societies having precedence over space societies; this is an important one, I think. Given how EVE works as a game, we see things 'top-down', but the idea is that the empires are extensions of the planetary societies and not the other way around (exception for the Caldari perhaps).
- Neutrality and ideological impartiality; how will a city-state with obvious Gallentean origins but ostensibly non-Federal leanings interact with the other entities in New Eden? Caldari loyalists? Amarr holders? Minmatar freedom fighters? It's already been explored with at least one Caldari loyalist (Scherezad), and I'm looking forward to engaging with others on it.
I've been getting a bit of IC flak (fine) with the above, but also OOC flak and meta IC-OOC stuff too (not fine), such as the Pony Planet comment. I have to pose the question; what's the issue? It's an honest attempt at some worldbuilding, and while I understand the pretentiousness of it, all RP is going to be pretentious in some form or another. Heck, it IS Gallentean after all, so the pretentiousness fits in-character, really. In actuality, the scale of it is meant to be no more of a big deal than an Amarr Holder's domain, and I know plenty of people RP that. I'm surprised no one called them out on having an ultra-rich little republic designed to be aiding poor communities...obvious profligacy, maybe even hypocrisy.
But profligacy is sort of the point.
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OOC - Go for it! Yay - Worldbuilding!
IC: It's a vanity project for a capsuleer already famous for his vanity. I'm a pragmatic Caldari who already has reasons not to like Seriphyn. Let the mockery commence.
I don't know who coined Pony Planet, but I use it IC because of the 'giving my daughter a sovreign state' angle of it.
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IC: Anything that keeps Seriphyn far away from her makes Katrina happy.
OOC: It doesn't involve me. I have no comment on it.
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OOC: You're doing more than most people and putting a lot of careful effort into it. Go forth and be merry (just don't god mod).
IC: Neat. Freedom of choice and action. Don't know about having a child leader but, hey. Good luck, call if you need help men.
The pony planet thing is kind of weird though. The child might be the figure head, but it isn't giving an entire Empire to a child. This is like saying Larsus Solidor from FF12 was given the Archadian Empire by Basch after his brother Vayne died as a 'pony.' To me, it sort of makes sense in a way, as it seems to be a Pathos methodology of appeal to elicit admiration, care, and loyalty.
If I had to guess, it would seem the child had the idea, led the people to a new, small, out of the way district (not even a planet), and built up a peaceful city-state. The people see this, amazed by this child's ability and know how, and follow her and protect her as their Queen. Thus the city-state prospers. Also, after what happened during the initial Incursions, it's good to see Seri doing SOMETHING. I mean granted I don't see everything of course, and I don't know all that happens with him (because honestly, I don't get this vanity thing. Seri doesn't seem vain to Anslo, just odd at times), but it's good to see what he's doing.
To me, a small city-state isn't really egotistical. It's cooler and more approachable than a catalog of space sicknesses (at least until I hammer out the details and you are all infected with autotrophic parasitic diatoms MUAHAHAHA). Gods speed \o/.
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Haters are gonna...
From what I have seen, Seri is not a very well liked character ICly. Not totally sure why. He is one of the few that can be quite full of sarcasm about his own faction too.
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Well now, I would say there is a big difference between a child inheriting her brother's kingdom by way of lawful inheritance than being appointed Princess by her Dad after he pays to build it from scratch.
As for Seriphyn's vanity - it's tied to his arrogance, isn't it? The two besetting flaws of the character? I'd be pretty intrested in hearing from Seri himself on this, because it was always my assumption that he was deliberately playing his char that way.
Again. Don't have a single issue with Seriphyn OOCly. This is all built off IC stuffies - so I'd be very interested in knowing if I'm wrong.
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I've honestly never seen Seri ICly as arrogant or vain. Long winded maybe, but not arrogant or vain.
Now if he named his empire Seriphynia....well...
EDIT: Also, Larsus was a boy....I think?...Or have I seriously SERIOUSLY missed something.
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I've honestly never seen Seri ICly as arrogant or vain. Long winded maybe, but not arrogant or vain.
Now if he named his empire Seriphynia....well...
Interesting. Best let Seriphyn shed some light on this, I think.
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To be fair, a lot of the flak Seriphyn gets IC is derived and left over from older behavioral traits. He's not well-liked IC, but he earned it over time.
He was a terrible womanizer (emphasis on the terrible :p), got pissy - often in public - about "space lesbians", was frequently insensitive towards others in many ways, and was generally abrasive and unlikable even in small settings. (Ego was a pretty big problem too, but that's common for a lot of capsuleers.)
He's changed quite dramatically since the Sansha events, but some of the old behaviors still bleed through occasionally, and they -do- still grate on people sometimes, both those who knew him "back then" and those who only met him recently.
A good example is from last night's thing that Schere put on (which was awesome fun, by the way) - I was talking with Rhi and Seri about Seri's attitude and behavior during the event, and summed it up like this:
[ 2013.04.09 03:23:59 ] Morwen Lagann > Seri has a habit, IC, of coming off as uninterested/dismissive of most things that aren't strictly practical or serving of a purpose. Not something to get up in arms over IC, or OOC.
It's an interesting character flaw even if it has a tendency to cause friction IC. It crops up all over the place, and because I have very few reasons to interact with Seri IC, I end up just getting to watch the potential trainwrecks that may or may not result from the reactions other people have to it. Which, of course, is entertaining enough in its own right, but that's just human nature on my part. Nobody can resist a trainwreck. Damn nosy rubber-neckers that we are. :lol:
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An entire planet-sized vanity project?
Silas are enamored. :lol:
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Apparently it's not an entire planet, so the phrase "Pony Planet' is incorrect. I suppose "Pony Principality" is better.
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I don't get it either.
I think it's more of a "politically incorrect" thing.
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To be honest I kind of feel like I've been baited in the thread into having a bigger problem with it than I probably should, solely due to P's dislike of Seri. In practice, this is a Jaiji issue, in Jaiji space and it really ought to be exposed to the marketplace of ideas where it will either succeed or die stillborn.
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Who you calling Jaiji you filthy fascist? :evil:
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Well, alright, I might as well share some facets of Seriphyn's behaviour, building on Morwen's points.
I am eternally grateful to CCP for doing the Sansha Heavenbound thing on Seriphyn, as it ultimately turned him into his own character, far removed from myself (though Seriphyn's exploration of classical liberalism in a decidedly non-liberal universe has had a scary influence on my own RL beliefs). As a result of those events, Seriphyn has become somewhat of a Byronic Hero (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ByronicHero). I never consciously pushed him in this direction, but at some point towards the backend of last year, I read the page and was like "Welp, that's Seriphyn".
A lot of it also comes down to perspectives and contexts. For example, Anslo has said in this thread he does not see Seriphyn as arrogant and vain, and equally Lyn does not understand the dislike either. Interestingly, on Lyn's point, Seri's venomous sarcasm about the Federation fits his Byronic trait (the 'jaded and world-weary' bit), regarding the interplay of cynicism and the pursuit of ideals. Seri sees his own beliefs as superior to all others, and it happens these beliefs fit with the Gallenteans (he did grow up as a Gallentean after all, and he certainly didn't invent his own beliefs). However, he does not see the Federation as contingent with being Gallentean at all.
Anyway, some characters will see Seriphyn negatively, others will not. Scherezad has been with Seriphyn for over a year, and one does certainly does not RP with a 2D character for that long. Seriphyn has been said to have an "infectious aura", which fits the 'charismatic' element of a Byronic hero. But in the Summit circle, Seriphyn is disliked, for a set of interconnected reasons. The first is my patent refusal to RP Seriphyn as a 'popularity sellout' (not accusing anyone of being that, that's just how I see it for Seri). For example, the Scherezad theatre event yesterday was attended by numerous other characters. I could have RPed Seriphyn as someone who thoroughly and outwardly enjoyed it for the purposes of scoring points with the other characters. But that would be out-of-character for Seriphyn. He saw it as a bunch of pretentious ponce (as Morwen has elaborated on) that self-aggrandized the indigenous culture with a bunch of historical wankery. This fits in with the 'rebellious' and 'disrespect for privilege' tropes of a Byronic Hero. There is no way I would have RPed Seriphyn as anything else in that event. As an aside, Seriphyn's respect for Caldari culture comes from their hard work and efficiency, not "bullshit tradition".
However, it's not "edgy for the sake of edginess". He's with his girlfriend, Scherezad, and thus his reactions were tempered and modulated because of her presence. Ultimately, he caved in and ended up enjoying it, because I felt that the most organic development of an individual having to sit and watch something for several hours. It's not a case of 'Oh this is wankery look at me saying it's wankery!'. But some people are more interested in the 'getting along' RP and, eh, well, fine. That RP, I feel, has an entirely different purpose to the sort of RP I pursue. The 'getting along' RP is motivated by desiring OOC approval, which again is completely fine. When Seri rejects the clique and all that, this has an OOC effect as well, because I feel some people take it personally OOC as well. I don't believe in the IC/OOC divide being 100% solid; that's just human nature. I don't really hold anyone in contempt for bleedovers.
So, a lot of the dislike to Seri I find originates from the "getting along" semi-casual RP bloc. I've had one character message Seri saying that she sees Seriphyn as "objectively a better human being than the majority of the people in the Summit". And I call the "getting along" bloc as semi-casual, but even relatively casual RPers like Seriphyn. And this says nothing about when Seriphyn RPs with Gallente loyalists, where he is universally liked.
Shit, this is a really disjointed post, but then again, I like it that way.
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Well, this explained some things - Pieter is possibly the Anti-Trope for a Byronic Hero, being more of a Medieval Hero by design and subsequent development.
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The first is my patent refusal to RP Seriphyn as a 'popularity sellout'
I think if I had played a male character I would have faced the same thing. Not that I don't face it here, but less, it's diluted.
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Honestly, though, fuck the people who are giving you OOC crap about your "pony planet". Neil deGrasse Tyson gets random trolls posting comments about the stuff that he says. He shrugs it off because he doesn't want to spend the time or energy engaging with idiots. That's a good attitude to take.
If someone wants to engage with Seri ICly and offer some serious criticism of what Seri's trying to do, bring it on! Just ignore the rest (maybe with a dismissive "run along and play now while the grown-ups talk").
And yes, I'll second what Morwen said. That's the basis for why Shin doesn't like Seri. I'm interested to see how Seri's changed in the time I've/Shin's been away.
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Heh, well, I reluctantly admit part of the initial problem before the Sansha thing was that I started EVE as a teen. Now, I'm an "enlightened" adult on the cusp of graduating in history from one of Scotland's ancient universities. Looking back at some of the things I've done, both IC and OOC, is quite embarassing, attributed to previous immaturity. I consider myself grown-up and educated now, so...
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All of us old-timers have some of that going on, believe me.
IC-wise: Huh? Whatever, I guess.
OOC-wise: I won't hate on it, but since it exists in a tiny bubble that cannot affect anything else, and is immune to non-consensual fucking with (thus is almost anti-EVE in it's nature) I doubt I'll pay any attention.
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I can't mock the pony planet OOCly. I've had my own worldbuilding projects for quite a while now, so I'd be a hypocrite if I started throwing rocks at someone else's.
ICly? Eh. Celeste has expressed concerns about the long term stability of the colony. Not that she wants to see it fail (though voicing polite public criticism in the hope that issues will be addressed is the extent of the help she intends to offer): she believes there's value in Seriphyn's having a project that will engage 100 percent of his attention.
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Thanks for the responses. I want to pose some other ideas...
- Elusenia is a tax haven; I was thinking it would be interesting if a second city was opened up to other capsuleer corporations to run their own offices or factories there (dunno about PI since it'd get a bit crowded). The employees would purchase Elusenian goods and use their services (tourism and entertainment primarily), while employed by whatever off-worlders choose to participate. Offers an opening for interaction.
- Population I'm thinking of, eventually, is just over a million. Too much or...? There isn't really any guidebook with these things.
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Use RL cities as a guide for your statistics and make a choice.
http://www.census.gov/popest/data/metro/totals/2012/index.html (http://www.census.gov/popest/data/metro/totals/2012/index.html)
Check the first bullet's data set and look at general populations. New York City has a population of 13 million. Miami is about 2.5 million.
I'm sure you can find other census reports from different countries as well. For instance, Tokyo has an estimated population of 13.2 million people as of 01-Jan-13 (if you're looking for a more exotic metropolitan area to use as inspiration).
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In New Eden you have the advantage to be able to pull very wide scales of numbers. Either isolated/desolated little colonies with no more than hundreds of people, or either megalopolises in core worlds that probably count A LOT more citizens than our pitiful RL cities, by a huge magnitude (<- the kind impossible to repel).
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But, of course, you should give a reasonable explanation why that many people would up and move to your colony.
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But, of course, you should give a reasonable explanation why that many people would up and move to your colony.
Exactly my concern. Maybe after six months it might be acceptable to come out and say 'We now have 1.2 million', and just level it at that. A 'colonial boom', as is apparently popular in the Fed.
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Just use Cartman's "You can't come." method. :lol:
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The pony planet thing is kind of weird though.
Elusenia sounds like Equestria, the name of the kingdom in MLP:FiM.
I think that and the 'making his daughter a princess' joke is reason someone called it a pony planet.
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Thanks for the responses. I want to pose some other ideas...
- Elusenia is a tax haven; I was thinking it would be interesting if a second city was opened up to other capsuleer corporations to run their own offices or factories there (dunno about PI since it'd get a bit crowded). The employees would purchase Elusenian goods and use their services (tourism and entertainment primarily), while employed by whatever off-worlders choose to participate. Offers an opening for interaction.
- Population I'm thinking of, eventually, is just over a million. Too much or...? There isn't really any guidebook with these things.
Human Life is Cheap™ in EVE, it seems.
In low-sec Sansha Events, complete temperate planet harvestings could net anywhere from 1 to 3? million people. Some high sec worlds go up to around 5 or 6, but were not 'total harvestings', that I can recall at least.
I've seen mention the Gallente Federation numbers around 3-4 Trillion people, not sure about the others. A million is a fairly tame number in all respects and seems safe to play with.
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^What Ghost said.
A million is a good number for a big old city state. However, make sure you build it up slowly. A million people suddenly moving in to the place out of nowhere is gonna get some :wat:.
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After a whimsical conversation with Des, I got thinking. I have been using Celtic, Hellenic, and Romantic naming themes for Elusenia (Elusen is Welsh, capital of Caerleon is a village in Wales, etc.), as I feel this is a good source of influence for the Gallente in general. The two goddesses on the flag are called Eleimosyni and Elpida, basically Greek works for something (charity is one of them). The military harbour in Caerleon I called Tintagel, after the castle where King Arthur was presumably born. And so on.
Noticing people's general reactions, it seems this is viewed far more pretentiously than doing something similar with, say, the Minmatar, Caldari, or even the Amarr.
Why is that? It is mildly frustrating. I know our Reddit-derived opinion of current modern democracy and American pop culture, but doing anything classical-oriented with Gallente is looked on with some derision.
Yet doing something weaboo with the Caldari is not.
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Pretentious ICly or OOCly?
ICly people would say hurrhurr pretentious because they think it's overly dramatic in terms of names and such. Like why is a colony being so aristocratic and blablabla etc.
OOCly, how the hell is that pretentious?? Those are some epic names and you've clearly put a lot of work into this, good work O_o
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Eleêmosynê is charity
Elpida is hope
Not a bad choice :)
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After a whimsical conversation with Des, I got thinking. I have been using Celtic, Hellenic, and Romantic naming themes for Elusenia (Elusen is Welsh, capital of Caerleon is a village in Wales, etc.), as I feel this is a good source of influence for the Gallente in general. The two goddesses on the flag are called Eleimosyni and Elpida, basically Greek works for something (charity is one of them). The military harbour in Caerleon I called Tintagel, after the castle where King Arthur was presumably born. And so on.
Noticing people's general reactions, it seems this is viewed far more pretentiously than doing something similar with, say, the Minmatar, Caldari, or even the Amarr.
Why is that? It is mildly frustrating. I know our Reddit-derived opinion of current modern democracy and American pop culture, but doing anything classical-oriented with Gallente is looked on with some derision.
Yet doing something weaboo with the Caldari is not.
Maybe because people actually expect that kind of things from the Amarr with their aristocracy and Holders.
But for Caldari or Minmatar I am pretty sure that most people would have the same reaction, even calling the guy delusional and "NOT CALDARI / NOT MINMATAR".
More seriously, I think that it might be tied to the fact that you are playing on a direct trope (don't know which one it is) where megalomaniac vilains often create their own wicked societies/mansions/lairs where they stand in the middle with roman clothes and surrounded by giant statues of greek gods like Zeus. Even if that's definitely not what you are doing, players will see it that way unconsciously. There is also the "Buckingham Palace" trope too. It may come more natural to british culture, but for many people it might also sound very cheesy.
I like what you are doing though, there is a little something that makes it unique.
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After a whimsical conversation with Des, I got thinking. I have been using Celtic, Hellenic, and Romantic naming themes for Elusenia (Elusen is Welsh, capital of Caerleon is a village in Wales, etc.), as I feel this is a good source of influence for the Gallente in general. The two goddesses on the flag are called Eleimosyni and Elpida, basically Greek works for something (charity is one of them). The military harbour in Caerleon I called Tintagel, after the castle where King Arthur was presumably born. And so on.
I think a lot of people have this internal image of the Gallente Federation as Their Favorite Western Democracy In Space™. The Amarr and Minmatar are both fairly alien, with the Caldari coming in a distant third, in that we don't have modern day major nations (i.e.: nations in the G8) that resemble them. The Gallente Federation just feels like a natural extension of France or the US or the UK or whatever. I think that leads to both people having an instinctual distrust of anything that would make the GalFed seem more alien, as well as a dismissal of the idea of a real Gallente culture - "They don't have culture, they have pop culture!"
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I think that leads to both people having an instinctual distrust of anything that would make the GalFed seem more alien, as well as a dismissal of the idea of a real Gallente culture - "They don't have culture, they have pop culture!"
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssss +10000000
Also for everyone else interested, I'm working on a wiki page (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Elusenia), but it's an utter mess right now. Bit by bit.
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The only reason the Fed doesn't seem to have culture is because we haven't really fleshed it out. Supposedly there's so many freaking cultures so..I dunno.