Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 27 Feb 2013, 13:20
-
Let's chat!
While I contend there are plenty of examples of mildly to majorly weaponized / cyberized individuals in New Eden, I'll posit that generally these are not capsuleers we play as.
We are highly specialized super-special genetic freaks who plug our brains into starships, controlling thousands of systems, etc etc. I want to imagine all of our resources, implants, and know-how are focused on 'spaceships' and related things. Lots of head implants, lots of command and control software, etc. Not the whole other avenue of walking hand to hand death machines.
I see an entirely 'different' avenue of cyberization for ground troops / assassins, etc. who aren't having to deal with controlling spaceships.
Thoughts?
-
I think there's simply too many possibilities to not accept cybernetic individuals. With as many clones as we can have, who's to say one doesn't have a combat frame? Who's to say that all augmentations are cybernetic as opposed to biological inheritance from clone to clone? Who's to say super cybernetic pilots weren't modified in specific ways to better fly their ship? Hell, who's to say some pilots don't LIKE just flying around ships and WANT to get into the action ground side or station side right along with their men.
My point is, not all eggers are aloof demi-gods who send mortals to do their bidding while they fart about in a shiny spaceship wringing their gooie hands together in sadistic delight as they watch their servants do their bidding DANCE PUPPETS DANCE...
....ahem....
Some capsuleers want to get involved with their men and women, leading them not just by ship command but on the battlefield. To me, a good, caring, and dependable commander worthy of holding leadership and people following him will be the first one to charge into a situation with his people. Of course that's not everyone, hurr hurr dark universe hurr hurr. But personally, I like to think that those who do mod themselves to fight alongside their people are the kind of eggers worthy of keeping and learning about more. They're the kind of people Anslo can admire despite faction affiliation.
They are not afraid.
EDIT: Also, if wide spread cyberization is so readily available in other universe settings such as say, Ghost in The Shell, where they haven't even exploited space yet and are only in the year 2027 A.D., why can't eggers do the same? A brain may not be implanted because well, it may not even be a brain anymore. It might be a big hunk of hardware with the pilots 'ghost' copied into it. Would make transmission of consciousness AND command signals a hell of a lot easier to send.
-
I kind of agree that the cybernetic hardware for most capsuleers would be optimized for control of a ship. It would even be further specialized by in-game implants. However, if anyone has the resources for seemingly frivolous upgrades such as flamethrower hands for "personal defense", it would be capsuleers.
-
Cyber Knights
Many of the Khanid want to keep their warriors competitive, but the only way to do so in the modern world is through extensive body enhancements. The advanced knowledge of cyber implants possessed by the Amarr has proven exceptionally useful in this regard. Some Khanid still aim to excel in physical combat, while the more progressive ones seek to become masters of modern warfare.
This is one of the three ancestries for Khanid capsuleers. So I wouldn't doubt that there are at least Khanid capsuleers who, following their Cyber Knight heritage, are incredibly physically augmented.
The standard cybernetics we use is stuff for controlling our ships, but nothing stopping people from loading up physical augmentations as well.
-
Overaugmented eggers is something I simply can't argue with. There are too many PF reasons why it's a possibility, and not enough PF sources to suggest that it would be a bad idea.
-
I have often understood that cyber knight description more like a Nano augmented Deus Ex 1 than a Mechanicaly augmented Deus Ex 3. But maybe they use both. Who knows. vOv
I also have often seen capsuleers more like this
[spoiler](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JEkEOTjmtuI/UOCaCYKXZhI/AAAAAAAAA4g/BZ37VzJjjuo/s400/Matrix+plug+2.jpg0)[/spoiler]
Or this
[spoiler](http://www.schizodoxe.com/docs/2011/04/Lain.jpg)[/spoiler]
Than this
[spoiler](http://www.lyricis.fr/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Terminator.jpg)[/spoiler]
But I see no reason why a capsuleer could not have a weird obsession in that kind of stuff... The only thing that makes me say that it is probably quite rare in the capsuleer milieu is that most capsuleers come from academies where 2 out of 3 of them are not even military, more political or scientific. They are probably closer to the average student you will find in any university than your average killing machine. Also, capsuleers basically do not need anything like that usually.
So, I think it is quite rare overall, but I do not see a particular issue with augmented capsuleers. Heavily to the point of going godmodish is another story.
-
Now, we don't need PF to provide background for every little thing we do in RP,
but,
It has seemed over many years the PF leans in the direction of Capsuleers' strength emanating from their wealth, their influence on baseliners, and the destructive power of their ships.
The story is often about how these things are used to effect change and get results, particularly through manipulating other people.
We've seen evidence of cyberization, but we haven't seen any real PF dealing with capsuleer one-man cyborg death machines, so to speak. There was the one CONCORD cyborg in Templar One, but there was only one, and a super-seekrit specialist. Then there's DUST troopers, which do many of these things but have a completely different set of interphases / software / implants to do those things.
I'm not saying it's not possible per se, I'm just saying I haven't seen any lore that's been created showcasing these things.
Just not imagining a lot of this:
(http://copshq.generalsjoes.com/images/cartoon/characters/buttons-1.jpg)
-
Than this
[spoiler](http://www.lyricis.fr/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Terminator.jpg)[/spoiler]
Oh look, you found Vlad.
-
Ummm, whats the point of going into combat for the adrenaline rush, glory and camaraderie after being soft copied, since you will not remember it even happening if you die?
Why would you gain anything in the eyes of your 'comrades' since you are immortal and they are not?
To me, all this combat malarkey is just fun and games for a capsuleer, nothing serious, and everyone knows it.
The capsuleers doing ground combat are like the Trust Fund kids slumming it in India at a five star hotel and being all spiritual and shit.
-
Ummm, whats the point of going into combat for the adrenaline rush, glory and camaraderie after being soft copied, since you will not remember it even happening if you die?
Why would you gain anything in the eyes of your 'comrades' since you are immortal and they are not?
To me, all this combat malarkey is just fun and games for a capsuleer, nothing serious, and everyone knows it.
The capsuleers doing ground combat are like the Trust Fund kids slumming it in India at a five star hotel and being all spiritual and shit.
+1
-
Cyber Knights
Many of the Khanid want to keep their warriors competitive, but the only way to do so in the modern world is through extensive body enhancements. The advanced knowledge of cyber implants possessed by the Amarr has proven exceptionally useful in this regard. Some Khanid still aim to excel in physical combat, while the more progressive ones seek to become masters of modern warfare.
This is one of the three ancestries for Khanid capsuleers. So I wouldn't doubt that there are at least Khanid capsuleers who, following their Cyber Knight heritage, are incredibly physically augmented.
The standard cybernetics we use is stuff for controlling our ships, but nothing stopping people from loading up physical augmentations as well.
Do you see the important distinction there though?
" Some Khanid still aim to excel in physical combat, while the more progressive ones seek to become masters of modern warfare."
This indicates two types, two different types. Physical and 'modern warfare' aka spaceship pew pew.
-
Most of the cybernetics required for the capsuleer interface seems to be headware and along the spine where we actually get plugged in.
Since we don't really have a basis for "how much cybernetics can be crammed into one human" here on Earth we kind of have to look at examples from (non-EVE) fiction. And that is quickly going to lead to many different opinions and views. The possibility for a lot of stuff is there, according to PF, so I guess it depends on what one wants to use. Most sources agree that there is a physiological and/or psychological border. Now you can argue that capsuleers are vetted and trained for "machine compability". If I'd wire up one of my character's I'd take inspiration from Shadowrun and Deus Ex, then exclude everything that's head or spine for reasons stated above.
From a purely practical perspective most "Tough guy" augmentations seem fairly useless. Impress baseliners some more? Might be a reason, but you could simply hire someone. Even if you die. What can happen? Soft cloning is a thing, so being squishy isn't a huge concern. This might be different when and if we ever get to do the prototype gameplay of structure exploration, though, even then - why not hire professional boarding teams or some dustbunnies, from a logical POV.
Add in that the more you cram into your body, the more expensive any new clone will be - unless you're going to lack the augmentations (hello trauma and disorientation). There's no real way to pay for that, so eh.. It's dangerous territory. Handle with care. 8)
-
Ummm, whats the point of going into combat for the adrenaline rush, glory and camaraderie after being soft copied, since you will not remember it even happening if you die?
Why would you gain anything in the eyes of your 'comrades' since you are immortal and they are not?
To me, all this combat malarkey is just fun and games for a capsuleer, nothing serious, and everyone knows it.
The capsuleers doing ground combat are like the Trust Fund kids slumming it in India at a five star hotel and being all spiritual and shit.
I don't agree. Like I said before, not all egg heads are aloof gods in spaceships. They may take the fact that, while they may be resurrected, their ground troops won't. If I had years of combat experience before being made an egger and I was sending my troops into a rough situation and if my experience and mods could help, why not? It may be nothing to the egger, but to the baseliners in his care, it would mean something. Even if he resurrects, he still came out of the pod and jumped into the fray to help his men.
In a situation like that, it's not fun and games, it's about being a leader.
-
In general I subscribe to the idea that Capsuleers' main demonstration of power comes from their wealth, influence, and mental faculties. Capsuleers who emphasize their physical capabilities in personal encounters are in the weird grey zone that doesn't seem to mesh with their archetype. There are undoubtedly some, or many, that do so merely as a left-over from their traditional human upbringing.
It has its place in the cybernetic world of Capsuleerdom. I don't see its usefulness in roleplay, but I know a few people who find it central in theirs. As a trend, I see physical values emphasized more among 'humanized' Capsuleers than the 'I am a God' starship overlords.
-
Most leaders are not in the trenches and are not the most efficient there.
As a tactical asset you are much more essential to the survival of 'your troops' if you are not there fighting by their side, but by giving them fire support from orbit, keeping enemy dropships at bay and making sure that the shuttles that take out the wounded are not shot down by the enemy.
Both Starship Troopers and Aliens both showed clearly what is the difference between a ground pounder and a flyboy.
The flyboys can do what the ground pounders can do, but the ground pounders cannot do what the flyboys can.
The survival of the ground pounders depends on the fact that the flyboys do their job to their best capability.
Each have their own part to play for the success of the whole team.
For a flyboy to not do his job as a flyboy is a self indulgence and perceived as such by everyone involved.
Like it or not, as a capsuleer you are a flyboy.
Not a ground pounder, and you can never be one even if you were one at some point.
To try to be one, is not a favor to anyone involved.
Except the enemy.
-
But you're assuming an egger flyboy would be in every single combat situation. I'm not saying that. I'm saying in the rare, odd, or dangerous situation where the mission is highly specialized and requires a bit more tact than just go in and shoot.
If a capsuleer has a body modified for stealth and he wants to go in and get someone out who was kidnapped for whatever reason, why shouldn't he be the one to do it? I'm sorry but I refuse to subscribe to this absolute black and white division where eggers are simply not very useful on the battlefield. There are too many situations where a moded capsuleer like Anslo would be a bit smarter to use than some lunky soldier.
-
I remember a thing way back, when Mum and I had to rescue some dude who had been kidnapped by Blood Raiders.
What happened was, when a fortuitous mission spawned, we went in and pewed the Blood raider ships, and stood off to watch for reinforcement waves, while a third player flew in in a cruiser to deploy troops to the station to extract the hostage.
As much as Mum or I would have wanted to be present with the rescue party, it was far more important to have the ships fully operational, and have the wide-eyed overview of what was going on.
maybe it's like the difference between an officer and an enlisted man in soldiering. If the officer's actively engaged in fighting house to house, he won't have the situational awareness to properly command all the other men.
-
Well, I guess the problem arises from the fact that even in a special situation like that a specialist would be a better choice, if you want to succeed in that situation.
After you are a capsuleer your specialty is flying ships.
Even if you would have a specialized body for a specialist mission, it takes time for you to familiarize with the implants and all the new tech involved, while a specialist would have had the mission done before you have learned to walk on your boosted legs without hitting the ceiling when you get surprised.
The life of a capsuleer kind of disqualifies you from being a specialist in anything else than being one, at least a good specialist, because you simply do have time to keep updating your skillset and being top notch in more than one thing.
You can be a crappy capsuleer and a so-so specialist in another field.
If you want to be a good capsuleer it will mean that you will be a crappy specialist in another field.
There is only that much time and dedication to go around.
-
I tend to have difficulty relating to the 'walking fortress' rp types as well:
With other capsuleers I can use all sorts of metrics to determine my interaction and my internal 'power metrics' sort of rankings:
are they wealthy, are they an ace pilot, are they extremely popular and have followers, etc? What is the change of them influencing me in game for x, y, or z reasons or capabilities?
This makes it easier for me the RPer to relate or not relate to them and assess my interactions.
When I don't have any of that other information, but all I have is 'im a super cyborg death machine that will totally kill you in person' my IC reaction is to just laugh.
-
Why would it take time? How do you know they weren't specialized in that kind of Op pre-egg? To top that off, why would it take time to learn the implants? Just download the combat software. You have the ability to cram mountains of info into your brain. Your definition of an egger makes them seem so limited in what they can do when the very basis of Eve makes their capabilities so boundless and broad that saying 'no you can only fly a ship and that's final' seem like it's backwards thinking.
I mean for crying out loud it takes some people 2-3 DAYS to learn how to fly an entire SHIP. That's a SHIP. What's stopping them from downloading some kind of quick combat control software and targeting systems to help them fight? Compared to training to fly a ship, that should take maybe 5 minutes. You severely underestimate the abilities of a capsuleer.
Edit: Just for the record, I am not condoning god moding invincible tank of mass destruction sort of egger. That's just...silly. But I can't agree with eggers not being allowed to have combat implants or modifications or growths. That's just...limiting the potential story lines that could emerge for absolutely no reason. Have the mods, just make sure you have a weakness. There's a lot of flaws Anslo has mentally and physically that can mess him up good in a fight.
-
You misunderstand the capabilities of a capsuleer.
Skillbooks modify your nervous system so that a capsuleer will function as a better piece of hardware in a ship.
Skillbooks do not teach you any skills.
The piloting skills of a capsuleer are very, very limited.
They are the same as yours as a player.
Manual piloting is awkward at best, most of the actual use of the ship is automated and only functions better than a baseliner ship because of you, the capsuleer, being better (and cheaper) hardware than the baseliners have.
The pilots in the Gallente-Caldari war most likely had completely different interface in their ships that the contemporary capsuleers, enabling them to pilot their fighter ships more efficiently than baseliner pilots, but that is something of the past.
Skillbooks are not real skills.
-
Ok, fine they're not real skills. I get that. But I don't see what's preventing that same methodology from being applied to muscle memory by modifying a variety of electrical impulses and their catalysts, or hell just having an implant in your brain to download information and knowledge. There's NOTHING preventing something like that. Hell, we're maybe 50-100 years from that happening in the real world. Look at me right in the eye and say that it's not possible in New Eden for a capsuleer to download either information on how to fight or download some kind of nervous system and muscle modification something or other to allow them to fight.
-
The question is why would you? You, as a capsuleer, are only special in as much as your brain doesn't go into lockup when you get connected to your ship. You are immortal (p. much guaranteed) as long as you are in your pod. Who would take this pilot then, who is very special in that he can pilot a 2500 ton (minimum) ship with his brain, and say "We're going to go and make you a commando and give you stealth technology and everything." and then in the process remove them from the pod, the one thing that they are special for being able to use properly.
Why risk that asset?
-
It just starts to get too Mary Sue for me in the end. It's like being an immortal, wealthy, cyborg space captain who can blow up other spaceships -with your mind- isn't enough, we also have to be super tough physically?
-
This sort of thing is one reason why I always kept Kala rather diminutive physically. Short and not strong, no extra cybernetics etc. And she always was awful at physical combat training :P I believe Ava did something similar.
It's actually something I rather like about capsuleers; a small, weak person, male or female can be 'stronger' than a big, physically tough person through the benefit of their wealth, connections and influence. You don't have to be a tank to make an impact.
-
@Tibs: Because not everyone is under control of a government. Some people are independent and just handle things their own way. While this is not the case for everyone (you're quite right), some people want to do it, plain and simple. They want to be modified, for one way or the other.
@Silas: Obviously there are limits to what is and isn't 'too much.' Like I said, a big walking tank of death that can't be killed AND is a capsuleer is getting into 'wat' realms. But someone who's modified to say...use a sniper REALLY stupidly well, or modified to engage in hand to hand a bit better (i.e. reinforced arms and fists etc), I don't see a problem in that. When it comes down to it, it's all about balance.
Also, imo, IF you're going to be super moded, you need to have some kind of negative side effect. For instance, electrical pulses could mess your implants up, infections could REALLY screw you over, or just a plain old shot to the head you can't avoid. If you take a 50 cal sniper and put it to someone's head, I don't care if you have the armor plating of a tank on you, no one is getting up from that.
Also also, moded people and violencing makes life interesting. I don't know about you, but just sitting in Summit arguing the same things again and again and seeing the same discussions again and again while we wait for CCP to further an arc is just not fun. We have it well within ourselves to make our own arcs and own fun, so why not do it with violencing and the occasional freaky modder? It's a game, let's have fun with it!
-
In general I subscribe to the idea that Capsuleers' main demonstration of power comes from their wealth, influence, and mental faculties. Capsuleers who emphasize their physical capabilities in personal encounters are in the weird grey zone that doesn't seem to mesh with their archetype. There are undoubtedly some, or many, that do so merely as a left-over from their traditional human upbringing.
It has its place in the cybernetic world of Capsuleerdom. I don't see its usefulness in roleplay, but I know a few people who find it central in theirs. As a trend, I see physical values emphasized more among 'humanized' Capsuleers than the 'I am a God' starship overlords.
I tend to agree with the above. I play a character who is basically a cybernetic body with a nervous system, but even so she's not much tougher then an average person. She's very much not a supersoldier or an elite assassin, her only real fight experiences were neighbourhood brawls as a kid. She's not indestructible (though she might dent instead of bruising), she has a bit better reflexes, and can do some neat tricks, but she's not a supersoldier and has no reason to be. She's a scientist, that's her archetype. I very much wanted to make her modifications a point of her personal preferences as a character and not to just be more powerful. I don't really have that much of a problem with the supersoldier capsuleers, but it tends to make me shake my head a bit and wonder why they aren't just playing DUST. To me, EVE is a game of wealth, intrigue, and war. It almost seems like it would be beneath a capsuleer to try to fight it out on their own.
-
Also, imo, IF you're going to be super moded, you need to have some kind of negative side effect. For instance, electrical pulses could mess your implants up, infections could REALLY screw you over, or just a plain old shot to the head you can't avoid. If you take a 50 cal sniper and put it to someone's head, I don't care if you have the armor plating of a tank on you, no one is getting up from that.
I think I remember a scene when cyberknight Aldrith got wasted off of half a drink because he had so little organic body mass left. Could have been someone else though.
-
@Tibs: Because not everyone is under control of a government. Some people are independent and just handle things their own way. While this is not the case for everyone (you're quite right), some people want to do it, plain and simple. They want to be modified, for one way or the other.
@Silas: Obviously there are limits to what is and isn't 'too much.' Like I said, a big walking tank of death that can't be killed AND is a capsuleer is getting into 'wat' realms. But someone who's modified to say...use a sniper REALLY stupidly well, or modified to engage in hand to hand a bit better (i.e. reinforced arms and fists etc), I don't see a problem in that. When it comes down to it, it's all about balance.
Also, imo, IF you're going to be super moded, you need to have some kind of negative side effect. For instance, electrical pulses could mess your implants up, infections could REALLY screw you over, or just a plain old shot to the head you can't avoid. If you take a 50 cal sniper and put it to someone's head, I don't care if you have the armor plating of a tank on you, no one is getting up from that.
Also also, moded people and violencing makes life interesting. I don't know about you, but just sitting in Summit arguing the same things again and again and seeing the same discussions again and again while we wait for CCP to further an arc is just not fun. We have it well within ourselves to make our own arcs and own fun, so why not do it with violencing and the occasional freaky modder? It's a game, let's have fun with it!
Heres the thing, though. I don't agree that tales of super-modified capsuleers having fistfights and brawls and fights straight out of chinese wushu movies is interesting, and the game already provides you with means of violencing people. If you wanted to, Anslo, you could go and do actual physical harm to Tibs, by flying out to where we are, and blowing me up.
I don't find doing that in a chat channel where there are no rules in place and everything must take place in a predetermined manner or be considered godmodding to be interesting, at all. All fights in freeform chatrooms turn into glorified versions of "I shot you", "Nuh uh, no you didn't", because there is no other way of resolving those conflicts.
Tib is heavily modified. He's basically a walking hunk of metal. It is for this very reason that you will never, ever see him getting into a fight that isn't in space. It's my excuse to get away from roleplayers who want to try to force that sort of RP on me.
If it works for you, go for it I guess, but don't expect me or my character to be impressed.
Come blow me up in a way that matters.
-
There is actually some PF specifically on this subject.
The Burning Life mentions specifically that the more meat you replace with metal in the human body, the less "effective" that human being becomes. It was vaguely described as a rule or principle. Basically, TBL seemed to indicate that full on cyborgs were more servitors from 40k than the Major from Ghost in the Shell.
While I know a lot of people want and have played full on cyborgs for quite awhile, I felt I should mention there is some PF that speaks to the limits of augmentation. Basically, it might be possible to make the human body as strong as a power loader, but in which case that human being will be as a smart or effective at various roles as a power loader.
(can try to dig up my copy and provide page numbers, if needed)
-
The way you resolve a chat room RP scenario is the same way you do a table top. You have your dice, you have your sheets, stats, whatever. If you REALLY want to get that into it, there are many, many ways. I can't go out and violence your ship because, solo, I'd get myself owned. Anslo is not that great at solo pvp, and there's a good reason for it in his background. He's very VERY good at violencing people on the ground. Go ahead and say I shouldn't play or RP in Eve then and say I should find another game, I frankly don't care. I don't impose Anslo's history and abilities on others without consent. And when we all consent, it ends up being a great time.
He doesn't just run around flaunting his arms about. He saves his abilities for when the situation is just absolute shit. The same should go for others who are modded as well. Don't flaunt it, use it in the worst case scenario. And when you DO have to use it, give yourself a statistically equal chance of succeeding or failing given the situation and your mods (i.e. some big cyborg is not going to do so hot trying to save someone from an area that's electrically charged that could fry him like an pork chop).
I, the player, do enjoy PvPs, PvEs, anything in between, AND the great arcs players come up with in chat rooms. Eve will one day be the greatest sci fi simulator there is, in space and out of space. But until that time, I don't see why it's taboo to enjoy those potential scenarios and great player arcs in a chat room if that's what we're given. If you don't like it, it's fine, don't bother with it. But I don't think people that DO enjoy it should be looked down on as 'doin it wrong,' which is what this seems like to me.
@Gottii: I can has page number? That sounds interesting.
-
Question Anslol: Why would a capsuleer be put in a situation like that though? That's like an investment banker or mafia boss or top general slugging it out on the ground. Capsuleers are bigger then ground fights.
-
You are overreacting. Take a few breaths.
I am not saying that you shouldn't play EVE or RP or whatever. I am saying that I will not interact with your character in a violent way that doesn't take place in space.
And no, I refuse to make a character sheet with stats and dice and skills for Tib. I refuse to participate in RP that does that. If you want to violence Tib you are going to have to do it within the context of the game of EVE online, with the tools that EVE provides you. EVE's chatrooms are, for me, for social PvP, which is where they belong.
-
@Saede: Because some capsuleers have people in their lives that aren't immortal that they care about. Some still like fighting ground side. Some prefer to be there getting their hands dirty to ensure shit gets done right.
Not ever pilot is a mob boss or military hero or investment banker. Take a look at the Joker or Bane. They lead a good number of people, but they still joined the fight. They weren't aloof.
The point I'm trying to make is that no all capsuleers think of themselves as aloof uncaring gods that are above the baseline humans. In the end, they're humans too, just with extra copies of themselves. They can die just like anyone else. CONCORD pulls one plug, and good bye "god."
@Tibs; OK, I'm sorry, but I get touchy about this subject. I've been told 'ur doin it wrong' in the past, to which I promptly said 'sod off.' For Tibs, your decision makes perfect sense. One does not simply walk in and kill a high level Sansha capsuleer. It doesn't happen. To top that off, why would Tibs enter a situation like that as a high level figure of the Sansha? So to me, your background makes sense in respect to not being in a situation where someone could violence you outside a ship.
Hell it makes sense for anyone in a situation like that. If they simply say, 'i am a demi god, i have no need for etc etc etc,' then that's a perfectly valid reason. I'm just worried that people will start looking down at other RPers who decide they want to do something OUTSIDE of the egg to further their plot or just have some fun. I really would hate to see that happen :|
-
Please don't think we are ganging up on you Anslo, this is just a discussion!
I'm reminded of Morpheus' line in 'The Matrix' where he says to Neo basically:
"Do you think how fast or strong you are has anything to do with how you operate in -this- world? "
This applies to capsuleers IMO.
I don't think anyone is saying urdoingitwrong, it's just that EVE has game mechanics in place to deal with non-consentual activities (pew pew, scheming, peer pressure), of which I base my RP around... it doesn't have a system yet for physical combat aside from he said/she said. No one is stopping you from doing your thing, it just might be harder to find other people willing to participate.
-
I can appreciate that Silas and I understand, but from what I've seen there are people in the community who do still enjoy that kind of RP as long as there's a balance. Anslo's been called on two or three times to assist, and each time he didn't flail around his uh....stuff to just autowin. No one wants that. To top that off, if he was ousted, I have no idea how people would react to him. Could be a major shit storm.
But again, it's all about balance. I believe that if you want to be crazy moded, there's nothing stopping you. Just don't god mod it. Otherwise, it's simply no fun for anyone.
-
Oddly enough, one of the things that bugs me most about all this is the idea that you can't, in these situations, godmod. You certainly can in the rest of EVE. I mean, in the rest of EVE, if I decided I wanted to kill Silas over and over, and I managed to get past the fact that she could surely kick my ass, and I managed to kill her and pod her over and over, I would get the evidence for this act, I would be doing it, and Silas would have exactly zero say in it.
I cannot do that in the type of RP you are espousing because there are no tools to deal with it, other than what amounts to a gentlemans agreement.
-
Oddly enough, one of the things that bugs me most about all this is the idea that you can't, in these situations, godmod. You certainly can in the rest of EVE. I mean, in the rest of EVE, if I decided I wanted to kill Silas over and over, and I managed to get past the fact that she could surely kick my ass, and I managed to kill her and pod her over and over, I would get the evidence for this act, I would be doing it, and Silas would have exactly zero say in it.
I cannot do that in the type of RP you are espousing because there are no tools to deal with it, other than what amounts to a gentlemans agreement.
Having a gentlemen's agreement can honestly open up some really interesting things. I tend to be much more open to letting things happen (especially bad things) if I have some say of it ahead of time.
-
I want to imagine all of our resources, implants, and know-how are focused on 'spaceships' and related things.
I think the crucial point is that other peoples want to imagine and portray their characters in a way that conflicts with how you want to imagine capsuleers in general. I think that they are - as long as they are in the bounds of PF - entitled to play their characters as they like and that includes that they might have personal reasons to get augmentations that augment them physically.
Also, I'm not quite the fan of the oh so popular 'soft clone' thingy. Capsuleers should have their weaknesses, too, and CCP stated that they don't do weapons/fighting in CQ because a capsuleer could basically be killed (implying: permanently) with a spoon.
Anyway, I think one has to be careful not to slip into a 'you are doing it wrong' because someone portrays his/her capsuleer in a way that one doesn't want to imagine them. (P.S.: Regardless whether it's licentious use of soft clones or augmentations. (; )
-
Well that agreement to me is acceptable. The people Anslo interact with have players that know how to RP and how to RP well. They aren't the kind to god mod. They keep the stories fresh and interesting, while giving good twists. It all depends on the people you RP scenarios with. Some people will god mod and simply..don't know how to really RP in that situation, while others know what to do and know their own characters limits. (i.e. Egger A is not going to be able to dodge a bullet they don't see coming because they are not Neo).
But it all comes down to taste. If it's your thing, cool. If it's not your thing, cool. As long as players who engage in that kind of RP aren't looked down upon, there's no reason there can't be a happy old balance between the two kinds of RP (in space vs chat/out of space)
-
Right, I think consentual RP violencing works just fine.
Example, when Aldrith resubbed last year I suggested as a bit of a welcome back he should violence a bunch of my NPC peoples. We worked out broad strokes ooc, and he did just that, fun for all.
Also Tibs don't say stuff like that, my spaceships blow up just like everyone elses, and I wished some of you people would shoot them more :(
-
I've never really felt the need to think too much about what awesome cybernetic augmentations my capsuleer has because at the end of the day if it isn't represented in-game then all that it seems to lead to in my mind is situations where as children one would say to another, "Okay, I shoot you with my pistol," Being retorted with, "Nuh-uh, I have an adamantium exo-skeleton that deflects all bullets!"
It just leads to pointless discussions about who wins because they supposedly have better fictional accoutrements. Then I also wonder sometimes if as a capsuleer you just wouldn't use a clone with say, cranial explosives or the like, so that even if you do meet a one man army of a cybernetic augmented capsuleer in the flesh you wouldn't just say, "Cool story" proceed to blow open your clone's head and just awake a new one somewhere else.
A capsuleer is like being able to play the best sort of villains right off the bat, you're typically extremely wealthy, have access to the most powerful weapons ever made in the cluster, and are immortal. Playing a capsuleer means in many respects you're already part of a very elite club, why even need all those personal cybernetics when you can already hypothetically level entire cities from orbit with your thoughts?
-
As someone whose first RP character was a horific god-moding mary sue, and has since been largely reformed/retconned/etc, I can see both sides to this. There is a great deal of logic to saying that it doesn't make sense for capsuleers to be getting their hands dirty. And it's always distasteful when someone tries to god mode and set off a bomb in a bar.
On the other hand, EVE is a big universe. If we decide to fall too hard on the side of "you can't do it if the game doesn't let you," we miss out. I can think of one or two players off the top of my head that take that attitude, and I understand and accept it entirely, but I think I'd rather be able to walk into a bar and enjoy a drink with corpies, etc.
Then we go in the other direction - outside of flying ships, we are limited purely to text-based RP. That is simultaneously limiting and freeing. It means we can do literally whatever the fuck we want. It also means that there is no agreed upon way to resolve conflict - the purpose of dice rolling in RPG systems. We can't play D&D, so we're more like the kids on the playground yelling "Bang! You're dead!" "No I'm not, you missed!"
So for most people, the solution is to avoid conflict. Talk, dance, have a drink, argue, etc, but avoid any physical conflict. Makes perfect sense.
And for some people, we don't want that. We like conflict, we like to fight, and if we're using free-form, text-based RP, why the fuck not? It simply requires that things be consentual, and for more complex interactions will require OOC communication. One of the first fights Stecker got into could aptly be described as "Clash of the Godmoders," and thinking back on it now is both nostalgic and embarrassing. On the other hand, more recently (as in, only two years ago instead of three) she had a sparring match with Raxip, her genetic enhancement against his cybernetic. During the IC bout, we were chatting OOC about what each character was about to do to make sure we agreed and it made sense to both of us. I had a blast.
If you don't enjoy that, or don't think it's appropriate, or just don't want to be involved, that's fine. Feel free to look down on people who try to godmode you into a fight, etc.
Please avoid applying the same disdain to people who simply enjoy a good scrap.
[As an aside, some of the posts in this thread are pushing the "ur doin it rong" line. Please be mindful of that, even if it's what you truly believe.]
-
This is not a discussion about RP violence and dice rolling etc, let's stick to how feasable and supported in game the concepts of these sorts of modifications are!
-
We're working with a universe wherein I can control a spaceship with my mind and my consciousness and all associated memories will be transfered to a new body upon my death.
Unless there's something specifically saying that such modifications aren't available (I think Gotti mentioned something), I would have a hard time denying them. If you can have a brain interact with an entire ship, why not hook it up to any other machine?
Of course, if we follow that logic far enough, we can take the capsuleer and remove the body, leaving only the nervouse system and implants and replace the rest with the necessary nutrient feeds and waste removal. I haven't seen anything described like that, so there may be a limit, but capsule technology is far enough advanced it's hard to say that much of anything isn't possible.
IIRC, someone (Caldari CEO?) already uploaded his entire concsiousness into a computer system? So why couldn't you stick it in a robot?
-
Also, imo, IF you're going to be super moded, you need to have some kind of negative side effect. For instance, electrical pulses could mess your implants up, infections could REALLY screw you over, or just a plain old shot to the head you can't avoid. If you take a 50 cal sniper and put it to someone's head, I don't care if you have the armor plating of a tank on you, no one is getting up from that.
I think I remember a scene when cyberknight Aldrith got wasted off of half a drink because he had so little organic body mass left. Could have been someone else though.
Yep, that was Aldy.
-
If these modifications are installed on your clone, good luck ever, ever leaving your captain's quarters in any high or lowsec station.
Security Chief: "Oh hey it's the one-man killing machine! *high five* Care to take a stroll on the station promenade? You -promise- you won't start punching through walls and zapping crowds of people? .... aww ok sure step on out!"
-
I play two heavily modified characters myself. Ruby in particular is filled to the brim with upgrades. Not one of them is a combat upgrade, though. Some are survival mods (respiratory filters, improved blood oxygenation, immunological symbiote). Some are experience enhancement mods (sensory spectrum and sensitivity upgrades), some are utility or convenience mods (synthetic muscle grafts to prevent low-g atrophy, cybernetic eyestalks [they have a hundred uses, very practical!]) and some are purely cosmetic. Plus the actual capsuleer implants, of course.
Even though none of my characters are modded for personal combat, I don't find the idea of other capsuleers being such all that far-fetched. Capsuleers have a tendency to be wealthy, whimsical, egotistical and fond of expensive toys that shoot fire. Just the opportunity to prance around in some over-the-top death machine of a body would probably be enough of an incentive for quite a number of them to do so. Although my characters (and Katla in particular) will happily deride the silliness (as she perceives it) of capsuleers crossing the aforementioned flyboy/dirtling divide, the existence of the phenomenon as such makes perfect sense OOC.
After all, in our own world, Rome had an Emperor (Commodus) who used to fight in gladiator matches as a fucking hobby. (I have to wonder how heavily those matches were rigged, but still, it says something.) Stede Bonnet, a well-to-do Barbadian landowner, abruptly decided - in the best mid-life crisis ever - to become a pirate at approximately the age of forty. Stuff like this happens.
It's not doing it wrong, you just have to be prepared for people calling it silly IC.
-
Admittedly, I have had RP fights (2 of them, in fact) turn blech because of ECKSTENSIV SYBERNETTICK MODIFICKASHUNS, but overwhelmingly, it isnt an issue to me at all. Kala nailed it; I Play a physically unimpressive (but crafty!) sickly character. She just isnt made for fighting and shooting at things, the odd deer or whatever aside.
Doesnt mean I dont enjoy Out Of Pod arpees.
-
Let's chat! While I contend there are plenty of examples of mildly to majorly weaponized / cyberized individuals in New Eden, I'll posit that generally these are not capsuleers we play as. We are highly specialized super-special genetic freaks who plug our brains into starships, controlling thousands of systems, etc etc. I want to imagine all of our resources, implants, and know-how are focused on 'spaceships' and related things. Lots of head implants, lots of command and control software, etc. Not the whole other avenue of walking hand to hand death machines. I see an entirely 'different' avenue of cyberization for ground troops / assassins, etc. who aren't having to deal with controlling spaceships. Thoughts?
I agree completely. I like that capsule pilots, despite their numerous advantages and demi-god-like status, are still vulnerable outside of their pod.
-
Well, the way I try to handle this is to have started Pieter out as big and strong for a human but not terribly well trained or experienced. Along the way I have managed to acquire some better training, which (in about six months) might make him reasonably deadly with guns/hands.
I'm leery about modifying his clones too much, but did an RP scene with Ninavask to build in some stuff to mitigate tissue and bone damage, so that he can get into fights and not be a physical wreck all the time. This will kick in the next time I'm podded - but it's not guns for hands, super strength or anything.
As for his high level of physical conditioning, I usually RP him as sparring and working out regularly.
I'm hoping that if I ever elevate this to 'Special Snowflake' level, someone with a level head will take me aside and have a quiet word. You all have my permission to do so - in fact I'm asking you to please do so.
But there ought to be a continuum within the capsuleer community, or we'll all be the same.
-
I agree completely. I like that capsule pilots, despite their numerous advantages and demi-god-like status, are still vulnerable outside of their pod.
Ireally think the bigger problem in regard to out of pod vulnerability is the use of 'soft clones'. I understand their value as protection against god-modding player kills, but honestly I don't see them as necessary. A smart capsuleer shouldn't get into the situation where he needs one anyway.
-
Works in theory, but some of us don't play terribly cunning smarty-pants. Some of us play act-first-think-later idiots.
-
IIRC, someone (Caldari CEO?) already uploaded his entire concsiousness into a computer system? So why couldn't you stick it in a robot?
Zainou CEO did it. He is in the Zainou mainframe to this date. I'm sure some lore wizard will whip you a link for it too. I'm @ school so cba.
-
http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Zainou_(NPC_corporation) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Zainou_(NPC_corporation))
A biotech company founded by the eccentric Todo Kirkinen, the first man to have his mind transferred into a machine. Zainou has from its inception been at the forefront of bio-chemical and nano-mechanical research, its headquarters are described as a combination of a mad scientist's lab and a jungle zoo.
-
Vincent Pryce used SUMMON LORE WIZARD it's SUPER EFFECTIVE :bear:
-
There are two different issues discussed here: the "thing" and the "action". I'll adress them separately.
The "thing". As has been pointed out, almost all sci-fi out there speaks of the limits to the amount of cybertech a body can have: Shadowrun and Cyberpunk are good examples of this. Of course, not all sci-fi does, Eclipse Phase has no limit, for example, and technologically-wise it would be closer to EVE.
So, let's imagine there is a limit of "slots" available. In such a scenario, then we would have pod-pilots using their head slots and spine slots on pod piloting implants (as has already been said), but they'd have their legs, torso, and arms free for implants there. If they installed combat mods there, then they would be above baseliners in ressources and everything, but below those that use all their slots for combat/stealth (for example, no cyber-reflexes as those would go in the brain or spine). They'd be good, but not impressive. Old-seph fell into this cathegory, he once lost a leg (I think he lost an arm too, I'm not too sure) and had it replaced with a cybernetic one, which he'd have in every clone, just to remind him the price to pay for what happened in the other side; then again, the leg wasn't rigged for combat (Seph was more a philosopher/spy than a warrior), but it could have been.
The other side of the coin is a universe where there are no limits to implants. On this side of the coin, nothing prevents an egger from getting cutting edge military hardware for everything he wants. Sure, damned expensive, but we all agree eggers are very-very-very rich, so it wouldn't be a problem for many of them. This would probably make them way above average, but still wouldn't make them optimal: a DUST soldier would still be inmortal in combat (which an egger isn't), have more experience, train more hours in physical things, will have fought in more scenarios, etc. But probably, below DUST or CyberKnight levels, pod pilots would be top notch (say, second league's best team!).
The "action". The key that arises most discussion here is how you use it. But actually you're all mostly agreeing: no godmodding, consensual RP. Which are the rules of good RP in every level (I can't go into a bar owned by another player and "buy it with my overwhelming wealth" even if we pod pilots are very rich!). So, as long as those rules are maintained, I see no problem with pod pilots being physical.
Of course, going down to land battles is probably pointless unless a real good reason can be given (knowledge of key codes or such they alone know and don't want to share, for example); it'd be useless because, as has been pointed out, it would be of very little use, compared to the help he can bring from orbit. I don't think soldiers would be happy to see him in the frontlines, like WW2 soldiers wouldn't expect Patton to be with them in front of a Panzer. That's what liuteneants and other low-ranking officers are for.
But that doesn't mean an egger can't be physical in other situations. I'm going to use a character I hate because it extensively god-moddes, but take Starbuck from Battlestar Galactica: she gets into brawls, sneaks around and assaults bars (in a horribly bad scene, btw!), etc. Not all eggers are cold psycopaths, not all are intelligent philosophers, or astute politicians. They all share one trait: not going into the wetgrave. That's it.
Catillah, for example, is a nice guy in his way, but he wouldn't have a problem in getting into a bar fight if he was caught in one. Wouldn't start one, though, but wouldn't stand idly and say "no punches please", but would pick up a stool and hit someone in the head with it. He's not physically improved by cyber or nano, but he is a soldier, and has some training in hand-to-hand combat and guns from his time in the Navy; doesn't use them much (in fact, he needs to ask his ship's computer where is his gun, as can be read in the "Who am I" story in the forums), but he does know how to.
Is that wrong? I don't think so. As long as I say "I get up from behind the bench and start shooting against Bla Pilot" and he gets to do what he likes on his end, we both agree to consensually, don't god-mod, and, in general, have fun while doing it. And, of course, accept the consequences. Catillah was expelled from the Imperial Navy without honors, and this was one of the reasons (the least important one, though).
-
I will add to Sepherim's post that I think there are two fundamentally different dynamics being considered here, and part of the disagreement comes from the fact that people are envisioning vastly different things.
On the one hand, some people seem to be assuming heavily combat-modded people are going to be "walking fortresses", with field-grade armor and weapons concealed beneath their apparently fleshy exterior, replacing large portions of the human body's normal internal structures.
On the other, there are people who are assuming assorted enhancements, not replacing but augmenting or aiding a body that is still fundamentally human.
Those are far, far different views, and I think that difference is an important one.
-
I don't believe anyone has had any negative reactions to the odd replacement part here and there, and plenty of PF to support these things, such as Ardishapur's robotic hand, and if I recall one of the Matari ground commanders from Templar One had a robotic leg?
Anyway there's a world of difference between the odd enhancement (which could be useful for many situations), and full-on capsuleer Motoko Kusanagi ruining whole squads of people.
I imagine if a capsuleer was involved in an operation they'd be far more useful in an R2D2 capacity, plugging in to computers and security systems and using their expensive brains to do awful things to enemy systems.
-
We could also take notes from most RP and other games in general - characters can typically only be a 'specialist' or a 'generalist'
Your wizard in D&D is unlikely to be much use with a sword or able to do many pushups, and your barbarian, while able to smash people's skulls in, might not be the most learned of men (or women).
Or they can do a little of everything, but nothing exceptional.
-
I imagine if a capsuleer was involved in an operation they'd be far more useful in an R2D2 capacity, plugging in to computers and security systems and using their expensive brains to do awful things to enemy systems.
This is basically how I RP my character. Hacking and nerdery. I don't see any reason why you can't RP your character as a complete cyborg, as long as you don't try to use that to gain some huge RP advantage. Saede might be mostly machine, but that doesn't make her immune to bullets, or make her a walking armoury or anything of the sort. I think you have a lot more leeway in what you can get away with as long as what you're doing is flavour and not your attempts to 'win' at RPing. Saede's modifications are flavour, she'd still probably get her ass kicked in a fistfight, whereas if I played her as a cyborg supersoldier who could throw people through walls with one hand, it would probably be looked at more negatively.
-
if I played her as a cyborg supersoldier who could through people through walls with one hand, it would probably be looked at more negatively.
I have little doubt there are rare individuals of similar capabilities sprinkled throughout New Eden, but I don't think they are capsuleers. My opinion, though.
Ridiculously expensive cyborg soldiers would likely be super great as bodyguards or small commando teams, but I don't suspect they'd get much action on the front lines of major engagements considering the lethality and numbers of giant death machines in use.
-
A conversation Synthia had with Gosakumori Noh led to this:
[spoiler](http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/bloodnuns/ImprovedHuman1.png)[/spoiler]
It is a far more logical shape, when cybernetics can replace things.
-
A conversation Synthia had with Gosakumori Noh led to this:
[spoiler](http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/bloodnuns/ImprovedHuman1.png)[/spoiler]
It is a far more logical shape, when cybernetics can replace things.
[spoiler](http://img3.rnkr-static.com/node_img/136/2719412/C350/mother-brain-tv-characters-photo-1.jpg)[/spoiler]
-
I prefer the sassy Queen Mother Brain from Captain N :)
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3oik4Ae0d1qfyx7eo1_1280.jpg)
-
I would love if there were a few floating brain in a vat type capsuleer RPers floating around.
-
They couldn't undock. The existence of a X's frozen corpse would directly contradict their RP background of being a disembodied brain.
-
They couldn't undock. The existence of a X's frozen corpse would directly contradict their RP background of being a disembodied brain.
What if the top of their head unfolds and the brain can come out and float around?
-
Look look look, you people are asking "Why arent we playing brains in jars". The correct thing to realize is that you are. :twisted:
-
any non-standardness would be revealed by examination of the frozen corpse.
even the relatively trivial things, like someone being half sebiestor half krusual (or so they say). Doing a dna analysis would reveal that to be inaccurate.
it's a bit :s
-
By that logic all characters are pasty white and have identical builds because there are only two possible images for the frozen corpses of capsuleers.
-
any non-standardness would be revealed by examination of the frozen corpse.
even the relatively trivial things, like someone being half sebiestor half krusual (or so they say). Doing a dna analysis would reveal that to be inaccurate.
it's a bit :s
The best solution to that is just to message the person whose corpse it is and (hopefully if they're cool) give you information on the character they could glean off of that. If someone had one of Saede's corpses I'd be happy to go along with this. Karmilla's right, you have to make some leeway for RP. Remember you technically can't leave the CQ mechanically either.
-
any non-standardness would be revealed by examination of the frozen corpse.
even the relatively trivial things, like someone being half sebiestor half krusual (or so they say). Doing a dna analysis would reveal that to be inaccurate.
it's a bit :s
Not sure I quite follow you there on that last bit.
Arnulf is a mix of two tribes (Sebiestor and Brutor) but his info lists him as Sebiestor because that's who conducted his Voluval. I'm sure similar rationals could be devised for other mixes of the known bloodlines.
-
any non-standardness would be revealed by examination of the frozen corpse.
even the relatively trivial things, like someone being half sebiestor half krusual (or so they say). Doing a dna analysis would reveal that to be inaccurate.
it's a bit :s
The best solution to that is just to message the person whose corpse it is and (hopefully if they're cool) give you information on the character they could glean off of that. If someone had one of Saede's corpses I'd be happy to go along with this. Karmilla's right, you have to make some leeway for RP. Remember you technically can't leave the CQ mechanically either.
+1
In the past, I've sent OOC messages to people who've podded my characters saying "Hey, let me know if you decide to do an autopsy."
It's resulted in some pretty interesting RP (and surprisingly little crap from non-RPers).
-
I RP that Hamish could be a super cybernetic terminator like guy if he was inclined. However, he's (on occasion) a multi-billionaire and he has people specifically for that sort of thing. Tens of thousands of people.
Doing his own wetwork would be an illogical and inefficient use of his time and resources.
-
Doing his own wetwork would be an illogical and inefficient use of his time and resources.
He's not a control freak. He clearly trusts that he's hired competent personnel. :)
-
Cyber Knights
Many of the Khanid want to keep their warriors competitive, but the only way to do so in the modern world is through extensive body enhancements. The advanced knowledge of cyber implants possessed by the Amarr has proven exceptionally useful in this regard. Some Khanid still aim to excel in physical combat, while the more progressive ones seek to become masters of modern warfare.
This is one of the three ancestries for Khanid capsuleers. So I wouldn't doubt that there are at least Khanid capsuleers who, following their Cyber Knight heritage, are incredibly physically augmented.
The standard cybernetics we use is stuff for controlling our ships, but nothing stopping people from loading up physical augmentations as well.
Right. I picked Khanid for my character and it gave me the option of being a cyberknight. I picked cyberknight, so I play a cyborg.
This is a legitimate choice for a capsuleer to make or it wouldn't be an option.
This thread is suggesting that my RP is wrong because five minutes into the character creator I hit a radial button that someone has decided shouldn't exist. If memory serves, I learned I could play a religious Asian cyborg in EVE first and *then* some splash screen comes up to tell me I'm an immortal living in a pod, piloting a ship.
-
I wouldn't sweat any real or implied suggestions that you're doing it wrong, Makkal. Obviously there *is* support in PF for heavily physically augmented people. Cyberknights *are* a valid Khanid bloodline. If you want to play a heavily physically augmented pilot, you seem to have all the support from CCP that you need.
There seem to be a couple of arguments going on in this thread. One is a debate about the possibility that you could have a pilot who is also heavily physically augmented - that you could fit both sets of augmentations in one human. Pod pilot interfaces are fairly invasive, but they don't comprise a lot of replacements. You have your jacks along your spine, along with associated hardware for mediating between the pilot and the ship. Other than that, your body is mainly your own. According to the old Cromeaux story, clones are not too far off from a standard human body. The obvious differences are the pod pilot interface, and the crazy "burn your pattern into gel" brain. But they don't have bionic limbs or anything like that. That would suggest that there's plenty of room for physical augmentations.
The other argument is simply "why would a capsuleer get their hands dirty when they don't need to?", which is in my opinion irrelevant. People do all sorts of things because they are important to them. Someone like Makkal might go in for heavy physical augmentation simply because it's a family tradition, and Khanid's are nothing if not tradition-bound.
-
I wouldn't sweat any real or implied suggestions that you're doing it wrong, Makkal. Obviously there *is* support in PF for heavily physically augmented people. Cyberknights *are* a valid Khanid bloodline. If you want to play a heavily physically augmented pilot, you seem to have all the support from CCP that you need.
There seem to be a couple of arguments going on in this thread. One is a debate about the possibility that you could have a pilot who is also heavily physically augmented - that you could fit both sets of augmentations in one human. Pod pilot interfaces are fairly invasive, but they don't comprise a lot of replacements. You have your jacks along your spine, along with associated hardware for mediating between the pilot and the ship. Other than that, your body is mainly your own. According to the old Cromeaux story, clones are not too far off from a standard human body. The obvious differences are the pod pilot interface, and the crazy "burn your pattern into gel" brain. But they don't have bionic limbs or anything like that. That would suggest that there's plenty of room for physical augmentations.
The other argument is simply "why would a capsuleer get their hands dirty when they don't need to?", which is in my opinion irrelevant. People do all sorts of things because they are important to them. Someone like Makkal might go in for heavy physical augmentation simply because it's a family tradition, and Khanid's are nothing if not tradition-bound.
Or because they were physically augmented first, and became podders later. Or because it makes them feel more secure. There are a lot of good reasons.
I've got a couple of characters who are physically augmented. One is (or was) a cyberknight of the more infantry-oriented variety before becoming a pilot, the other got replacement parts as prosthesis, again before becoming a pilot.
However, I could see how someone who was an all-powerful space-god might also feel like they needed to give themselves an edge rather than just being meat outside the pod.
-
@Gottii: I can has page number? That sounds interesting.
Okay, found my copy. (little bit of a necro)
Exact quote from pg 121-122 from EVE The Burning Life
"Robots and monsters?" Terden said. "Depends. You can spot the implants in most of them, and there's a bunch of ongoing projects I dont want to get into, where there's almost more machine than man."
"More machine?"
You miss the part about not getting into that?"
"I just didnt think that was possible. The more you shove metal into someone and take away the body they've grown used to, the less they can usefully operate."
"There is that....There is that, yeah." Terden said, inspecting the table again. His hair cast jagged shadows on is surface. "So, what you do is either you use as little metal as best you can, or you use as little human as best you can."
--------------
So, basically, if you look as TBL as PF, according to PF, full borg cyborgs are basically not very useful nor very human. This would indicate that most cybernetics are looking for a light touch, augmentation rather than full on replacement. Or biotech.
BTW, the "using as little human as possible" line meant using children.
-
Im generally against "cyberization".
We are pod pilots in first place, there are specialized implants for that, other metal? Totally unrelated.
I prefer my characters "clean" from this stuff, they are mere humans and act as humans.
As for dealing with "cyborgs", well, who cares how many kg of metal you had under your skin, if you had an antimatter blaster shot into your heart, right? :twisted:
-
In my experience the issue of augmentation starts to get on people's wick when it's used to 'block' RP, and a lot of knee-jerk antipathy to augmentation is the result of bad experiences in the past. When you've tried to RP with someone whose character is essentially Superman with psychic powers the instinct to duck and cover when a cyborg enters the scene can get pretty strong.
That of course is not to say that there's not plenty of characters who play the issue of augmentation much more subtly than that - just that we can all be captive to confirmation bias if we don't look out for it.
-
IIRC Duster Clones are specially constructed, with reinforced skeletons, etc (to handle the weapons and for strength) making them generally superior to run of the mill baseliner meat sacs.
I can name at least three capsuleer player characters who can rival them with all these augmentations they got, but I think further discussion in this key belongs here http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4235.0
My characters are rather meat sacs :lol:
My personal preference is that capsuleers, even augmented ones, are taken down by dust soldiers with ease if the two are on equal footing. A dust soldier pours all their experience and training into infantry combat. Just using their weapons would kill or seriously injure a baseline soldier.
The problem with this is that, according to dust lore, if you catch a dust soldier unaware, you get OHK him with a nova knife. Pretty much throwing any superiority the soldier has away.
And it doesn't make sense to me. My amarr dust soldier can shrug off shots from a defensive turret or stand right by a grenade as it goes off, but stab him with a knife and he drops?
-
IIRC Duster Clones are specially constructed, with reinforced skeletons, etc (to handle the weapons and for strength) making them generally superior to run of the mill baseliner meat sacs.
I can name at least three capsuleer player characters who can rival them with all these augmentations they got, but I think further discussion in this key belongs here http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4235.0
My characters are rather meat sacs :lol:
My personal preference is that capsuleers, even augmented ones, are taken down by dust soldiers with ease if the two are on equal footing. A dust soldier pours all their experience and training into infantry combat. Just using their weapons would kill or seriously injure a baseline soldier.
The problem with this is that, according to dust lore, if you catch a dust soldier unaware, you get OHK him with a nova knife. Pretty much throwing any superiority the soldier has away.
And it doesn't make sense to me. My amarr dust soldier can shrug off shots from a defensive turret or stand right by a grenade as it goes off, but stab him with a knife and he drops?
I think it was more about their armor, not bodies.
On a side note, acquiring dust armor for capsuleer could be an interesting idea for dealing with 'baddies' IC-ly :P
-
And it doesn't make sense to me. My amarr dust soldier can shrug off shots from a defensive turret or stand right by a grenade as it goes off, but stab him with a knife and he drops?
Well, a nova knife isn't just a bit of metal, but shenanigans involving plasma and graviton generators and a whole load of technobabble, so maybe. Of course, that just leads to the question why if that technique is so effective in penetrating DUST armor, why don't they tip a small missile with it or something.
-
Nova knife: The latest technology advance in a field of culinary. Allows you to cut dust soldiers into thin accurate slices without applying force!
-
Synthia's nature, in that each Synthia is a remote-operated unit, means that she could construct some form of entirely mechanical remote unit, or engage in ground combat with very, very little consequence. Not even a cyborg, a full robot, and all the invulnerability that entails.
Does that seem a bit over the top ?
Only thing she's done of that nature was to construct a doll-sized robot Synthia, to interact with her sister's doll house, and dolls.
-
I wouldn't really think it'd be over the top, but I've not actually looked at the various PF that supports Synthia's existence. At the technological level that EVE is at, I'd think things like full cyborgs, robots, and the like, would be fairly common. I think it all comes down to how well you play it.
-
I'm not 100% up on Synthia's nature either, but I'll say this: I think a fair number of people look at Synthia and - partially driven by the way she interacts - already assign to her in their minds a degree of "silliness" or "jokeyness". So, I don't think it'd be a Huge Deal(tm) if she made a remote robot body, because people already look at her and to some degree just shrug and go "Oh, well that's just Synthia."
That said, a lot of these things depend as much on "will you do it" as "can you do it". COULD Esna go stomping around in his battle armor, shooting everything in the face? Well, he could try at least. He doesn't, though, because that'd be silly in my opinion. Same deal with Synthia - could she create a remote-robot combat body? Quite sure she could. Would she use it in some way public enough that it'd be noticeable to other characters? Would she use it in some way that'd annoy other characters (or even their players)?
-
And it doesn't make sense to me. My amarr dust soldier can shrug off shots from a defensive turret or stand right by a grenade as it goes off, but stab him with a knife and he drops?
Well, a nova knife isn't just a bit of metal, but shenanigans involving plasma and graviton generators and a whole load of technobabble, so maybe. Of course, that just leads to the question why if that technique is so effective in penetrating DUST armor, why don't they tip a small missile with it or something.
Yun Hee uses these extensively. If you use a Minmatar scout suit and advanced knives you can one-shot (well, technically two-shot; they're used in pairs) heavies with even moderate skills, putting their power level well ahead of even a plasma shotgun. The main problem is getting close enough.
If I recall correctly, the item description explains it as a knife that reinforces its strike with a plasma charge. The visual effect is ambiguous-- you see the knife arcing electricity, but there's none of the orange plasma flare you get from most of the game's plasma weaponry.
My guess is that the knife functions like a sort of plasma variant of a HEAT round, striking shield and armor with the typical force of a nano-augmented supersoldier lashing out with a knife, then venting superheated, ionized gases through the breach.
Owie. Not something you'd want to be on the receiving end of.
Also yet another weapon you probably don't want to use without a dropsuit*. The thermal backwash has got to be fierce.
Mind you, even if we weren't talking about horrible sci fi plasma blades, we'd still be talking about clone soldiers being downed with knives by other clone soldiers. There's a lot of strength behind that blow, and then there's the further augmentation provided by the suit. Pistol-whipping a dropsuit works just fine if you can punch like a railgun.
* ... if you even could. All DUST weapons, including nova knives, have dropsuit CPU requirements, even if they don't need PG. This incidentally helps to explain why you can't just pick up weapons on the battlefied-- they're installed as part of the suit, and probably inoperative if detached. Granted, even an inoperable nova knife is still a really big knife.
-
Yeah, I'd hate to imagine what one of those would do to a fresh squishy pilot clone
-
All this talk of twin Nova knives makes me smile given my recent bit of speculation and creation (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4241.0l).
-
We might also look at 'cyberknight' as a whole 'class' of military individuals who use cybernetics
... one branch being capsuleers who use cybernetics to fly million-ton spaceships with their thoughts.
Another branch might plug into ground based tactical networks and run strategy simulations in a command center.
Another is likely running around behind enemy lines going Motoko Kusanagi on motherfuckers.
Another is likely wired for interfacing with Khanid MTACs and going MechWarrior on people.
Another yet is probably working personal security for Khanid Innovations, with Cyber Kung-Fu trained to level 10.
Something DUST lore doesn't get into to my knowledge, but DUST troopers are elite small scale, highly special, valuable, an expensive troops. Think Space Marines compared to Imperial Guard. When the big faction planetside military forces go to war on the ground they are probably still doing the conventional thing and throwing thousands of tanks, air vehicles, and ground troops at each other.
Khanids having I believe the largest ground-forces of all factions 'Cyberknights' should cover a wiiiiiide range of possibilities.
-
Not that it matters, but Makkal was trained/augmented to be long range recon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Reconnaissance_Patrol). Drop her into hostile territory and she disappears, either to feed you intel or sabotage something.
That is why the first thing I had her do was to train for an Anathema.
-
Ava's good at sneaking around in the woods. Cause, you know, she was born into an environment and society where doing so was of benefit, so she became very, very good at it. Middle of the boreal forest in the dead of winter? You're simply not going to find Ava unless she wants to be found. Take her out of that environment, and she's suddenly pretty ineffective. She's learned a narrow range of things. Dropping TERMINATOR GODMAN 9000 into this environment and having him be more effective at it than those people who have lived their whole lives there is problematic for me, especially as they tend to ignore things which are sorta important; do they have a VERY good explanation for "why do I and my 400kg robot mass not sink into several meters of snow, or fall through the ice and die?" This is what annoys the shit out of me. I have, in the past, seen people just say "My character is cybornetically enhanced!" as an "I will always win at any scenario" godmodding tool. That just irritates me.
I see Khanid cyber knights as the same in most ways; good at a narrow range of things, specialised at those things, and not good at EVERYTHING. Had i not started with minnies, a cybernight is almost certainly what I'd explore, because its cool as hell. I dont think any of them are one woman/man walking marine divisions capable of destroying all in every scenario. I picture them much as Silas described; among the best in their element. Not so good outside of it. They have learned a narrow range of things, and then improved them with cybornetics.
I dont see cybornetics as a "insta plug it in and boom! Godlike warrior!". I see them as being used to enhance what the person already does; it is augmentations, not a crutch. I deeply enjoy out of pod RP, as it simply appeals more for me. Some other people are the same. I dont mind RPing with cybornetic people who are like the 2nd one. I deeply mind the TERMINATORGODMAN9000 types.
-
/me drops 10 Titans on Ava's position.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goe6IB1DLZU