Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: kalaratiri on 06 Feb 2013, 14:24
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sirens_of_Fear_and_Sense_%28Chronicle%29
Enjoy! :D
I like this one. A good read.
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Looks like Tibus is about to kick the bucket.
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(http://global3.memecdn.com/shit-just-got-real_o_297595.jpg)
That said, I think this gives us - for the first time - a specific link in time between the DUST fiction (T1, 514, etc.) and a wide-scale event in the universe that our characters -definitely- know about.
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Shit is getting super real. And Heth doesn't seem to just be kicking his bucket, but a whole bunch of other buckets too.
Also, 514 references. Still not telling you guys what it means :P
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in the backroom Provist On Provist civil war, where do our Provists stand? :O
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Also, 514 references. Still not telling you guys what it means :P
0_0
...
... where is the rebel base?
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Shit is getting super real. And Heth doesn't seem to just be kicking his bucket, but a whole bunch of other buckets too.
Also, 514 references. Still not telling you guys what it means :P
This is actually something I've wanted to know for a long time. If you wouldn't mind PMing...
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Shit is getting super real. And Heth doesn't seem to just be kicking his bucket, but a whole bunch of other buckets too.
Also, 514 references. Still not telling you guys what it means :P
This is actually something I've wanted to know for a long time. If you wouldn't mind PMing...
Likewise.
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Shit is getting super real. And Heth doesn't seem to just be kicking his bucket, but a whole bunch of other buckets too.
Also, 514 references. Still not telling you guys what it means :P
This is actually something I've wanted to know for a long time. If you wouldn't mind PMing...
Likewise.
Please? *puppydogeyes*
Related confession, I spent most of last saturday up all night going all Da Vinci Code on the number 514. Results? A doodle of a shark in a suit and another depicting a top-hatted, monocled octopus saying "What ho!"
Mystery solved.
I still havent recovered from the coffee intake.
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(http://i.imgur.com/v4XAHLu.gif)
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I liked it a lot, to be honest, and it did explain a lot of nice things, even if we still don't know what 514 is. :)
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:(
It seems like the State is being set up to be a classic military dictatorship ran by the War Council.
[spoiler]Ok, so the CEP was the first War Council, but it represented the interest of profit making entities, not the continued maintenance and power of a military force interested in continuing its own existence.[/spoiler]
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:(
It seems like the State is being set up to be a classic military dictatorship ran by the War Council.
[spoiler]Ok, so the CEP was the first War Council, but it represented the interest of profit making entities, not the continued maintenance and power of a military force interested in continuing its own existence.[/spoiler]
Maybe the War Council is simple the CEP body that directs the Caldari Navy?
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https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=54725&find=unread
This may be relevant for the Dusties among us. :)
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Maybe the War Council is simple the CEP body that directs the Caldari Navy?
I am being a little paranoid, especially given some of the language being used in news releases, stories, etc with regards to the State.
It seems like the State is being setup to fall hard; like really hard. To the point that its a pariah state on the other big ones.
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Yeah, I'm going to be SUPER CRANKY if this is CCP's way of saying to Caldari RPers "You didn't like being semi-Nazis? Your faction just went FULL FASCIST! Deal with it!"
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I think we can stand to give CCP Falcon a bit more faith than this. He was one of us just a little while ago... I don't think he would derp that hard, would he?
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I think we can stand to give CCP Falcon a bit more faith than this. He was one of us just a little while ago... I don't think he would derp that hard, would he?
Well he was a Gurista.
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I think we can stand to give CCP Falcon a bit more faith than this. He was one of us just a little while ago... I don't think he would derp that hard, would he?
Well he was a Gurista.
I find this train of thought perturbing because it implies a lack of professionalism. More than one person is responsible for the integrity of the Prime Fiction and story direction. Simply because Falcon is the most visible doesn't mean he is suddenly the only person driving the boat.
I am also much rather inclined to see the conclusion of the story arc before passing judgment on it - not everything will make sense at first. The Sansha Arc leading to Incursion was much the same way.
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I think we can stand to give CCP Falcon a bit more faith than this. He was one of us just a little while ago... I don't think he would derp that hard, would he?
Well he was a Gurista.
I find this train of thought perturbing because it implies a lack of professionalism. More than one person is responsible for the integrity of the Prime Fiction and story direction. Simply because Falcon is the most visible doesn't mean he is suddenly the only person driving the boat.
I am also much rather inclined to see the conclusion of the story arc before passing judgment on it - not everything will make sense at first. The Sansha Arc leading to Incursion was much the same way.
You seem to have missed the part were I was joking Ghost.
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I think we can stand to give CCP Falcon a bit more faith than this. He was one of us just a little while ago... I don't think he would derp that hard, would he?
Well he was a Gurista.
I find this train of thought perturbing because it implies a lack of professionalism. More than one person is responsible for the integrity of the Prime Fiction and story direction. Simply because Falcon is the most visible doesn't mean he is suddenly the only person driving the boat.
I am also much rather inclined to see the conclusion of the story arc before passing judgment on it - not everything will make sense at first. The Sansha Arc leading to Incursion was much the same way.
You seem to have missed the part were I was joking Ghost.
Not enough context supplied to infer that as the intent, Aquila. A parallel discussion to this topic just occurred in EVE's OOC chat that wasn't joking about that fact. That colored my perception of your post.
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As far as the 514 thing goes, I would love to tell you guys. However, I swore on my previous computer's grave to CCP at Fanfest that I would not tell anyone until they deemed that the right time had come. (Seriously. Well, except the whole computer grave part.)
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I more read it as CCP's way to ditch Heth
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Isn't the 514 thing something like a pun in Chinese numerology ?
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Congrats to CCP for running a dust live event when the Euro and US timezone are at work :roll:
Downtime to Downtime or nowt IMO :mad:
Still, a decent chronicle; though it seems Sol's going to have to sit on the sidelines as her pro-heth stance will fly in the face of current corporate opinion. Still, I have plenty to do in this kind of environment :).
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Maybe the War Council is simple the CEP body that directs the Caldari Navy?
I am being a little paranoid, especially given some of the language being used in news releases, stories, etc with regards to the State.
It seems like the State is being setup to fall hard; like really hard. To the point that its a pariah state on the other big ones.
The Caldari and Minmatar could use a few kicks in the ass and looking like fools for a change, it would make the other factions breath a little.
Sometimes, and I am probably wrong, I get that absurd feeling that Caldari and Minmatar do not really suffer from player dislike and flak that the Amarr and the Gallente get.
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Well, uh, that was a little more direct than I thought that was going to go down.
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While I in essence agree with Lyn here, I also share Tib's impression of the events.
I mean, "going down-hill" is one thing, Heth is more like an unstoppable free-fall at this point.
It will not be pretty when he finally hit the ground...
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Actually, many historical examples can be provided that when systems and leaders fall, they fall far and fast: the French and american revolutions, glasnost and perestroika processes, the end of the appartheid in South Africa, the end os the spanish dictatorship, etc. Such massive changes often explode when a critical mass has been reached due to one reason or another. It's not the only way it can happen, true, but it isn't that rare.
Oh, and as far as where I see this going, I agree with Seriphyn, I think CCP is turning the Caldari back to the Eight and far from Heth's hands/vision now that his role in creating FW (together with the Elders) is complete.
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Isn't the 514 thing something like a pun in Chinese numerology ?
Close. Except it is not numerology as 514 is not a special number in itself for a Chinese. I do not know what they call it, but the Chinese care a lot for items that have the (nearly) same pronounciation and the association this brings.
As such "five one four" pronounced in Mandarin is the same as "I (am) going (to) die".
For a game developed i China this makes good sense on its origin, though what it means in the Eve universe could be anything.
P.s. I had help from my Chinese wife to figure this out.
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The difficulty IC-wise for me given this chron and recent events is that the CPD/Heth has gone from a somewhat grey and dubious area that can be worked within (popular front, labour movement, war hero, return of Caldari Prime etc etc) that could somewhat legitimize certain aspects and justify support (Even if others disagreed) to a very clear cut black and white matter due to continued applications of boots to faces, infringement of corporate sovereignty and basically giving the finger to the CBT.
The aspects that once permitted a degree of subtlety in supporting the CPD are now lost because for a lot Caldari that were "raised in the system" the current actions by Heth and the CPD make justifying or rationalizing support almost impossible.
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Yep. I've been interacting with the actors and other players, but I think I'm pulling out of that. Definitely terminating contact with the actors.
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The aspects that once permitted a degree of subtlety in supporting the CPD are now lost because for a lot Caldari that were "raised in the system" the current actions by Heth and the CPD make justifying or rationalizing support almost impossible.
Ding Ding
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The difficulty IC-wise for me given this chron and recent events is that the CPD/Heth has gone from a somewhat grey and dubious area that can be worked within (popular front, labour movement, war hero, return of Caldari Prime etc etc) that could somewhat legitimize certain aspects and justify support (Even if others disagreed) to a very clear cut black and white matter due to continued applications of boots to faces, infringement of corporate sovereignty and basically giving the finger to the CBT.
The aspects that once permitted a degree of subtlety in supporting the CPD are now lost because for a lot Caldari that were "raised in the system" the current actions by Heth and the CPD make justifying or rationalizing support almost impossible.
While this is seriously problematic IC, I think they are doing a fair job of showing a slide from 'grey' toward much darker grey by Heth (which seems pretty consistent with a near-dictatorship).
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While this is seriously problematic IC, I think they are doing a fair job of showing a slide from 'grey' toward much darker grey by Heth (which seems pretty consistent with a near-dictatorship).
I would agree to an extent, but currently unless a character is 100% Provist/Templis it's very difficult to support the CPD because prior to about a week ago they were essentially an organization inside the CEP and corporate-legal framework of the State, right now they are very clearly and very publicly violating and transgressing what some might consider fundamental and important aspects of Caldari State society.
It's almost like Jamyl Sarum giving the finger to the Seekers of Truth, Theology Council and Privy Council in public and then asking Amarrian characters not to question it.
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Might be a difference in perspective, because this seems to me more a furthering of existing CPD tendencies, rather than a sudden turn. The existence of the CPD itself was an imposition on the previous status quo, as far as how the Megas exercised power.
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Might be a difference in perspective, because this seems to me more a furthering of existing CPD tendencies, rather than a sudden turn. The existence of the CPD itself was an imposition on the previous status quo, as far as how the Megas exercised power.
The issue is one, fundamentally of the notion of corporate sovereignty in the State. Whilst previously the actions of the CPD could be justified by the Megas ceding their strategic control to Heth and the mentions of "popular support" in PF as regards the New Meritocracy and the CPD. At present those notions of a degree of consensus and support for the CPD from the CEP members and the population dissolves when it's clearly shown that there are widespread anti-provist rallies (not just Ishukone specific), violations of corporate independence by the CPD as shown in actions against Intara and Ishukone as well as a disregard for the CBT as shown in the Intara suit against KK.
The subtlety before was that if the CPD were violating corporate sovereignty then they were doing it with at least a degree of discretion or behind closed doors, right now it's all very much in the public eye for every citizen of the State and they can and will judge upon it.
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I would tend to agree it is a drastic escalation. The original idea that popular support (and so, the spectre of popular revolt) is part of what drove the CPD into power (and without getting into the various problems I have on a plot level for everything EA-related) is itself sort of against the grain of corporate sovereignty, though: The State isn't a democracy, popular support isn't really supposed to get you into power unless something goes terribly wrong.
I think CCP probably is going toward Heth losing the vast majority of public support, but from an IC perspective the current situation could easily be interpreted as a minority - perhaps a 'small but vocal' minority protesting, rather than a genuine popular movement. Ultimately you might be wrong IC, but that's part of the fun.
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I think CCP probably is going toward Heth losing the vast majority of public support, but from an IC perspective the current situation could easily be interpreted as a minority - perhaps a 'small but vocal' minority protesting, rather than a genuine popular movement. Ultimately you might be wrong IC, but that's part of the fun.
Personally, the protests are less important than the string of corporate sovereignty violations and the injunction delivered by a CPD executive order to the CBT to favour KK that caused a, "What the hell?" moment.
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Well, yes. It does seem a pretty colossal misstep. Though you could try and spin it as all falling under the 'security of the State' or something.
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Previously I found it easy to argue in favour of the CPD and Heth from the standpoint of being a Patriot with a traditional upbringing. That is to say that if you viewed the CDP as being an emergency measure and Heth being the guy who was restoring the vitality of the old traditions then Patriot politics, CDP support and Traditional leanings went together well.
Now my Traditional leanings and Patriot politics are revolting rather strongly against supporting the CDP - regardless of the state of emergency.
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Sometimes, when social and political systems start to crack, the ones in power start making desperate measures to try to remain in power. You can see examples all over the Middle East after the Arab Spring, for example, with Siria and Lybia probably being the best ones. Just seems like Heth is in that line now.
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It's almost like Jamyl Sarum giving the finger to the Seekers of Truth, Theology Council and Privy Council in public and then asking Amarrian characters not to question it.
Like her being a clone and becoming the Empress?
Welcome to EVE, where any kind of logic in the storyline does not matter.
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What we're seeing are several players on the board leaping to take advantage of a power vacuum left behind by a rapidly deteriorating Heth regime. He's desperate to keep hold of what's left of his empire while everyone else is working hard to tear it apart. I suppose if I was playing a Heth Provist, I'd be trying to convince myself that any kind of instability in the State could give their enemies an advantage, where a civil war could even irrevocably tear the empire apart.
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Yeah, I'm going to be SUPER CRANKY if this is CCP's way of saying to Caldari RPers "You didn't like being semi-Nazis? Your faction just went FULL FASCIST! Deal with it!"
Never go full fascist.
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I find this train of thought perturbing because it implies a lack of professionalism.
I really want to say when I first read some of these post:
WTF? Are you new?
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Might be a difference in perspective, because this seems to me more a furthering of existing CPD tendencies
This is my take too.
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if I was playing a Heth Provist
The problem is, the people who could pull it off don't play Heth Provist. In May 2008, there weren't a whole lot of Caldari pilots/players cheering for the rise of the forklift operator. Over the past 5 years, there hasn't been a lot of cheerleaders (a few, but not a lot). And right now, the Caldari pilots who do sign-up to do the Provist's dirty work are taking a beating from IGS and wrestling with the moral dilemma of "these aren't guri & jagii anymore, these are the very people and organizations I am supposed to be protecting. I signed up to defend a corporate meritocracy and I am getting used like a disposable tool by the CN & Provists."
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The set goal of the fiction is to be ambiguous enough to not offer simple black&white shades. Imho, the past CPD/Heth angle allowed this well. Right now it doesn't look like that anymore. Logical conclusion would be that there are events afoot that require breaking that premise. Furthermore, logical step for our characters is to react accordingly.
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The set goal of the fiction is to be ambiguous enough to not offer simple black&white shades. Imho, the past CPD/Heth angle allowed this well. Right now it doesn't look like that anymore. Logical conclusion would be that there are events afoot that require breaking that premise. Furthermore, logical step for our characters is to react accordingly.
This is interesting because from my point of view the pre-heth State allowed for a complex tapestry of ambiguous shades of grey but the Story line since painted everything black and white.
One of the reasons, I think, that there wasn’t as much interaction between the Gurista click and the state loyalist click as it seems like there should have been is because of different perceptions of the Caldari State by the players in the two groups. So if someone brought up in OOC that Falcon’s RP background might cause him to write things that don’t mesh with how they see the State then I can say that the thought did occur to me too. After all, sometimes the world he described in things he wrote before working for CCP seemed different than New Eden as I perceived it – even though the stories were always highly entertaining and thought provoking.
That being said, I think Falcon is doing a pretty good job here. I’m willing to admit that there is a small chance I might maybe possibly sort of see the State through some ever so slightly rose tented glasses. First, even in today’s society big corporations do some pretty evil things to people even though those corporations aren’t inherently evil. Second, Eve is a HUGE world and when you have mega corps that own worlds with bigger populations that current day earth then somewhere bad stuff is going to happen to people under their jurisdiction. Even if the CEO and Board of Directors were the poster boys for philanthropists somewhere in the universe atrocities would be being committed in their name at any given moment. Eve is just too big, oversights will be made and important people will make poor decisions that affect millions of people.
Additionally, even though I don’t think that a mega corporation could succeed without for the most part being philanthropic in regard to its employees, I also don’t think that they’d be able to succeed without being pragmatic enough to understand when to break a few eggs for the good of the whole.
So I’m willing to give Falcon a break if he goes a little heavy handed on the dystopian flavoring. He’s been handed a pretty nasty mess and I can’t blame him if the clean up process isn’t 100% neat and pretty and to my exact preference.
Frankly I wouldn’t be upset if this was his way of waving his hand and saying “TEA never happened, carry on citizens.” Eve cannon, especially in regards to the Caldari, is fucked right now. It’s in shambles and if Falcon has the balls to reboot the whole thing even though it won’t be a easy or pretty process then I’m with him.
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Well, I'm still pretty disgusted over the whole mess, but I do suppose I owe Verone a chance. I just know that CCP is going to use this as an opportunity to ruin the State further, but hey, if there's a ten percent chance that I can help effect a change...?
So, time to figure out how to be a Patriot counter-revolutionary.
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The problem is, the people who could pull it off don't play Heth Provist. In May 2008, there weren't a whole lot of Caldari pilots/players cheering for the rise of the forklift operator. Over the past 5 years, there hasn't been a lot of cheerleaders (a few, but not a lot). And right now, the Caldari pilots who do sign-up to do the Provist's dirty work are taking a beating from IGS and wrestling with the moral dilemma of "these aren't guri & jagii anymore, these are the very people and organizations I am supposed to be protecting. I signed up to defend a corporate meritocracy and I am getting used like a disposable tool by the CN & Provists."
Never said it was an easy role to take, but anyone fighting in faction warfare or was previously advocating the recapture of caldari prime prior to his rise in power (frothing ultra-nationalists, i'm looking at you!) have benefited from his reign. Now the liberals are protesting openly, testing his resolve, the practicals are probably getting outside help and trying to unite the factions against Heth, and even the patriots are fighting back for autonomy, and what's going to happen is a lot of dead people while a civil war unfolds. Provists will eventually be swept aside, but at what price?
The question that could be asked is whether capsule pilots are as comfortable doing the dirty work for Heth/Provists or the nepotistic executive panel.
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Just a gentle reminder that CCP Abraxas and CCP Gnauton are actually writing the story, and CCP Falcon and CCP Eterne are just executing their orders.
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Keep in mind folks:
FALCON IS LITERALLY HAVING TO FIX THE TONYG SITUATIONS.
That said....
WHERE ARE THE CAPSULEER PROVISTS?
DIANA KIM! WE NEED YOU (for the first time eveeeer)
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Shit is getting super real. And Heth doesn't seem to just be kicking his bucket, but a whole bunch of other buckets too.
Also, 514 references. Still not telling you guys what it means :P
This is actually something I've wanted to know for a long time. If you wouldn't mind PMing...
Likewise.
Same here please, I gots ta know.
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The issue here is that what many people saw as "Provists" were in fact characters that to varying degrees bought into the vision of the CPD and the New Meritocracy during a period of decline of the Caldari State. There was a sense of hope for a new future, a return to fundamental values, and the creation of a more egalitarian, fair, and meritocratic society. This support was furthered with the retaking of the Caldari Homeworld by Tibus Heth. Even if one didn't agree fully with the nationalist rhetoric of the Executor, support could still be justified on the points above.
This was the element of complexity and shades of grey that Heth and the CPD introduced into the State, sure the guy was a forklift driver and probably a xenophobic racist dictator to some but for others he was the guy that had a plan for the future and given the recession the State had entered, popular support was a reasonable assertion to make because he did, at least initially, did try to introduce change and rectify sore points for many citizens?
Now however, it's all changed and it seems the State is becoming overstretched to its limits, Kaalakiota (the largest State Mega) is heavily in debt to the Empire and seems to be tanking heavily trying to support all of Heth's agendas, there appears to be little delivery on the promises for the future made by the CPD in addition to degrees of social unrest.
To top it all off, the CPD has just the precedent that it can and will violate corporate sovereignty to anyone that disagrees with its policies and politics and that any attempts to seek arbitration via the CBT against KK or the CPD will be met with an Executive Order preventing it. It is that point itself that for my character at least is a very difficult pill to swallow for many reasons, because while she supported the CPD and the Executor due to agreement with the concepts of the New Meritocracy and a hope for a better future for the State, it seems like everything is back to exactly where it started.
It sometimes seems like everyone just read TEA and assumed support for the CPD meant you had to be a jingoistic nationalist while forgetting that there was more to it than just that from a lot of the PF and articles released about it that provided reasonable points to support it for a Caldari. Now it's just particularly confusing because it's difficult to support a CPD promoting a "return to values" for a Caldari that doesn't have rampant xenophobic nationalism when it has visibly trampled upon those very same values.
Civil wars are never civil, and right now as a Caldari RP'er it feels like the only things possible is trying to decide what's the best out of a lot of bad options.
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The issue here is that what many people saw as "Provists" were in fact characters that to varying degrees bought into the vision of the CPD and the New Meritocracy during a period of decline of the Caldari State. There was a sense of hope for a new future, a return to fundamental values, and the creation of a more egalitarian, fair, and meritocratic society. This support was furthered with the retaking of the Caldari Homeworld by Tibus Heth. Even if one didn't agree fully with the nationalist rhetoric of the Executor, support could still be justified on the points above.
Ha! Hamish agreed with the nationalist rhetoric but believed the CPD was turning the state away from it's fundamental values and that the Caldari had become less of a meritocratic society under the Heth regime :P There seemed to me enough evidence in the early news articles to suggest that the CPD wasn't what they put on the outside of the box so I took that and ran with it.
The means by which the guy took back Caldari Prime should have ended in a complete military victory by the Federation over the State and anyone with any sense should be able to see that the Caldari victory was fluke, not military genius. Hamish wanted CP back as much as any other Patriot and wasn’t averse to risk in taking it – however what was done was reckless and stupid not ballsy. For Hamish risking the State (to the Federation!) on a gamble that was nearly guaranteed to lose is more than enough reason for open rebellion against the CPD and absolute proof that from the Executor on down that they didn’t merit the authority they were taking for themselves. There is a huge laundry list of other reasons, but with this one alone no others are needed.
The articles around the actions taken by Heth to take the state out of the recession were to me worded in a way that if you paid close enough attention you could see that the CPD’s programs were pretty useless. They didn’t say that the CPD’s worker education programs were the best, largest or most efficient ever created, only that they most expensive programs run on the State level (I.E. what the CEP had done in the past and not compared to individual mega’s programs)
There was also the suggestion that the apparent upturn in the State’s economy was not because those programs but because of the Amarrian grant combined with the fresh natural resources from Black Rise and Placid. You’ll note that it wasn’t that long before the economy turned back sour when Placid was lost and it pretty much stayed in the shitter since. It was only briefly that the State enjoyed any economic prosperity under the CPD.
There were also news article about how the State protectorate was incurring way more cost in managing Caldari Prime than the Caldari Navy would have been if Heth had allowed them to manage instead of his loyal army. This was followed on by an article talking about how the Mordu’s Legion was saw an upswing in recruitment because all the Navy’s resources were being siphoned off to the State Protectorate and the best Caldari baseline officers didn’t like their options of being a in a Navy that was having it’s place usurped or joining a shitty outfit like StaPro. This also suggests a level of animosity between the CPD/Protectorate and the Caldari Navy and is a clear example of Provists being rewarded for political loyalty when they are obviously of lesser merit and ability than the Caldari Navy.
On top of this a very high percentage of the handful of articles we’ve had over the last few years have been about the CPD violating corporate sovereignty. They weren't telling us much, but what they were saying when they did finally talk to us was the Provist are all about violating corporate sov, so I don’t see how this is a surprise to anybody. The precedent was set at the very beginning and the theme carried on all the way to day.
To me there are far more examples, right there for our characters to see, of the CPD turning the State away from a meritocracy and blatantly violating corp sov than there is of them bringing about a resurgence of Caldari values or a return to a meritocracy.
I think a factory worker can be excused for buying into the party line but with the information available to a capsuleer they should be able to see that the CPD aren’t as advertized.
right now as a Caldari RP'er it feels like the only things possible is trying to decide what's the best out of a lot of bad options.
This is how it’s been since 2006. You’ve only just become involved enough to notice it just now.
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That's the point, Hamish. You were able to pick your side. There was plenty of ammunition for arguments pro- and contra the whole ordeal, whereas now it's getting increasingly difficult.
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That's the point, Hamish. You were able to pick your side. There was plenty of ammunition for arguments pro- and contra the whole ordeal, whereas now it's getting increasingly difficult.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
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Civil wars are never civil, and right now as a Caldari RP'er it feels like the only things possible is trying to decide what's the best out of a lot of bad options.
I always liked stories centered on "choosing the lesser evil", instead of "doing things right", and this is just the case, as you very well put it. And, very often, that's what happens with society, no clear and good paths are available.
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I always liked stories centered on "choosing the lesser evil", instead of "doing things right", and this is just the case, as you very well put it. And, very often, that's what happens with society, no clear and good paths are available.
Oh, I'm not making any complaints about it, it's been leading to some very awesome and complex RP as people try to figure out just what in the world they're going to do and where their loyalties lie. :D
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I always liked stories centered on "choosing the lesser evil", instead of "doing things right", and this is just the case, as you very well put it. And, very often, that's what happens with society, no clear and good paths are available.
Oh, I'm not making any complaints about it, it's been leading to some very awesome and complex RP as people try to figure out just what in the world they're going to do and where their loyalties lie. :D
It would be nice if the story was spread out over a bit more time so we actually had time to respond to it, versus a new thing every morning when I wake up, already 8 hours behind the curve with another 10 or 12 hours before I have time to respond in anyway.
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It would be nice if the story was spread out over a bit more time so we actually had time to respond to it, versus a new thing every morning when I wake up, already 8 hours behind the curve with another 10 or 12 hours before I have time to respond in anyway.
I would agree, but in a way it's true to form because when there's major shifts or collapse of power in a nation events tend to occur chaotically and rapidly.
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It would be nice if the story was spread out over a bit more time so we actually had time to respond to it, versus a new thing every morning when I wake up, already 8 hours behind the curve with another 10 or 12 hours before I have time to respond in anyway.
I would agree, but in a way it's true to form because when there's major shifts or collapse of power in a nation events tend to occur chaotically and rapidly.
Both calls for support went out at roughly the same time (1830ish), which is not consistent with the collapse of power in a nation or the chaos that would ensue.
It gets to mechanics however and encouraging player interaction and enabling the sandbox/emergent gameplay. Slowing down the pace from 1 week to 2 weeks would have given the fall out of the trials existence a bit more time to be played with for example. It would have given players a chance to organize and figure out "Hey, when the next call comes in, do we respond or not?"
Is that how it would work in real life? Probably not, but then Gesakaarin, Nederland, Desiderya, Grayson, Hakatain, etc would also be full time capsuleers, who moments after the CPD invaded the CBT would have had a telecon about the situation and discussing a way forward. At this point, the characters are stuck Observing and trying to Orient because we as players have outside commitments that are a higher priority. We should not be trying to race CCP Falcon's OODA loop.
Edit: Eve Forum Thread (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2587198&#post2587198)
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Lots of stuff on timing.
You make a lot of good points there, it may be realistic that events happen at such a quick pace, but a game also has to be fun, and fun requires they leave you some time to play with things, not a race. So I agree on that.
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I would agree with your points Dex, but I think I should also add that there's also another difficulty that raises its head and that has to do with context. We as players don't have the same access as our characters would to all the various news feeds and opinions our characters would have to in the State.
It might be described as capsuleers living in their own little bubble but sometimes it feels like if you wait and see then you end up in a situation of, "Hey, these things were going on this whole time didn't you know that or just take a look around?" when a new article appears or you end up feeling like you're taking potshots into the dark with very little info to guide your character choices.
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Must say from this thread, I'm interested to see what will happen when it's the Fed's turn for a faction-whopping. The battles lines and goals are more clear here (assuming this is CCP's way of getting rid of Heth)...but I'm going to guess the Fed thing is going to be the same as the State in the sense you have the Black Eagles violating individual sovereignty. However, because Fed appears so homogeneous from the outset (even if it's the complete opposite), with regards to just having one 'bloc' of NPC corps (Fed gov, navy, customs, FIO, etc) I don't know what the point of it will be. There won't be any intrigue other than "Black Eagles are doing this for your security!" with disgruntled citizens going "Noo!".
Unless CCP decide to actually create a faction within the Fed government, like a Senate bloc.
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It would be nice if the story was spread out over a bit more time so we actually had time to respond to it, versus a new thing every morning when I wake up, already 8 hours behind the curve with another 10 or 12 hours before I have time to respond in anyway.
I would agree, but in a way it's true to form because when there's major shifts or collapse of power in a nation events tend to occur chaotically and rapidly.
Confirm. Not just in RL, but think of the kickoff of the Empyrean War, the whole attack of the Elder Fleet and the Caldari Navy push into Caldari Prime. CCP pulled that off in, what, about half a day? Things can move very quickly, very suddenly, and it's up to our characters to do their best to react in-kind.
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I'm interested to see what will happen when it's the Fed's turn for a faction-whopping.
I'm wondering if this is a thing, and if they'll do similar to the other factions.
Not my Empress! :eek:
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Confirm. Not just in RL, but think of the kickoff of the Empyrean War, the whole attack of the Elder Fleet and the Caldari Navy push into Caldari Prime. CCP pulled that off in, what, about half a day? Things can move very quickly, very suddenly, and it's up to our characters to do their best to react in-kind.
Yup, all happened in one day, during the downtime of the launch of the appropriate expansion. But, as far as logic goes, it made little to no sense at all for things to happen so quickly. Then again, very little things in TEA make sense, so it's no surprise, and I understand they had to use the downtime in order to sort it all mechanic's wise.
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Must say from this thread, I'm interested to see what will happen when it's the Fed's turn for a faction-whopping. The battles lines and goals are more clear here (assuming this is CCP's way of getting rid of Heth)...but I'm going to guess the Fed thing is going to be the same as the State in the sense you have the Black Eagles violating individual sovereignty. However, because Fed appears so homogeneous from the outset (even if it's the complete opposite), with regards to just having one 'bloc' of NPC corps (Fed gov, navy, customs, FIO, etc) I don't know what the point of it will be. There won't be any intrigue other than "Black Eagles are doing this for your security!" with disgruntled citizens going "Noo!".
Unless CCP decide to actually create a faction within the Fed government, like a Senate bloc.
I seriously hope this don't happen, at least not yet. From an IC-POW, the Fed *needs* the SDII for as long as this war rages. The Provists may be replaced and no real harm is done because the various Mega's and their forces can run things just as well, but in the Fed there is no other organization to maintain internal control and security. As long as the war lasts, the Fed needs to stay in "War-mode" and keep kicking, the SDII can be dismantled once peace has been re-established, and re-activated when war breaks out again.
From an OOC-POW, the SDII is the best thing to happen to pro-Fed RP in a long time, possibly the very best thing so far. Also, IMHO, while the whole thing with Heth was a serious slap in the face of Pro-State RP in many ways, and his removal may be a good thing overall, removal of the SDII will cripple any semblance of Federation competence and integrity. Just don't, CCP, just don't.
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From an IC-POW, the Fed *needs* the SDII for as long as this war rages. The Provists may be replaced and no real harm is done because the various Mega's and their forces can run things just as well, but in the Fed there is no other organization to maintain internal control and security. As long as the war lasts, the Fed needs to stay in "War-mode" and keep kicking, the SDII can be dismantled once peace has been re-established, and re-activated when war breaks out again.
I am sure there is a Federal political thinker who said something like:
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
There should be an internal debate between Federal loyalists about this very thing. A simple response to "we need them now; when the war is over it will be gotten rid!" is "that can not be guaranteed! We have seen throughout the history of the humanity that those who gain power rarely give it up willingly!"
It is a debate that can be ripped from the headlines in the modern United States. What happens when Roden starts pushing the SDII to assassinate Federal citizens without due process? What happens when the structures of security are seen as burdensome and inadequate to actually prevent those who would do harm? Etc, Etc, Etc.
It will be more challenging than Caldari RP, because it will hit much closer to home.
From an OOC-POW, the SDII is the best thing to happen to pro-Fed RP in a long time, possibly the very best thing so far. Also, IMHO, while the whole thing with Heth was a serious slap in the face of Pro-State RP in many ways, and his removal may be a good thing overall, removal of the SDII will cripple any semblance of Federation competence and integrity. Just don't, CCP, just don't.
The SDII is key to giving the Federation the shadow organizations pervading modern powerful democracies. A direction the Federation could take, due to the problems with the Federal Army is to pursue increased PMC involvement and with that all the "problems" involved. An already disconnected from the war population is further disconnected and because frustrated with paying for what is a "distant-war" etc.