Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Gesakaarin on 30 Oct 2012, 10:01
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So this is a question I've been asking myself:
"Are the Deteis and Civire separate and distinct cultures and ethnicity in the State?"
I ask because at times it seems the prevailing national and cultural concept is that of being a Caldari first whereas being Deteis or Civire appears to be relegated more to some sort of stereotype as to what sort of Caldari you may be. For example:
Deteis:
-Articulate
-Cunning
-Ruthless
-Dutiful
-Physically lithe or elegant
Civire:
-Focused
-Aggressive
-Stubborn
-Patriotic
-Physically robust with jaws that cut glass
There may even appear at times where a Caldari might be told they're both Deteis and Civire depending on context or social situation:
"That was a very Deteis thing to say." (A wry or sarcastic remark perhaps).
"You're acting like a damn Civire." (Being stubborn and uncompromising).
This only because it appears that the concept of nationalism in the State is held to being, "Caldari" and not Deteis or Civire in the State, and not including the fact that centuries of interbreeding and cultural intermingling seems to make it very difficult to see how individual identification would be attached to being either Deteis or Civire and not just a Caldari.
Thoughts?
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My first thought would be, "what about Achurans?"
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My first thought would be, "what about Achurans?"
Well I'm sure there are Achurans that hold themselves as being Caldari, but they also come from Saisio and not Caldari Prime so might retain an identity and culture that can also ostensibly be said to be, "Achuran."
The question I'm asking myself is if the same could be said for being either Civire or Deteis.
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I definitely went with Deteis while creating my character because of the "not a fighter, a thinker" description.
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"Are the Deteis and Civire separate and distinct cultures and ethnicity in the State?"
My state RP-fu is weak but I imagine that the overriding culture is STATE oriented and not ethnicity-oriented. The distinctions probably serve as a good broad background but I don't imagine they are ever the overriding factor. A good place to start but perhaps not the be all end all that can be found in some of the other New Eden cultures.
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My state RP-fu is weak but I imagine that the overriding culture is STATE oriented and not ethnicity-oriented. The distinctions probably serve as a good broad background but I don't imagine they are ever the overriding factor. A good place to start but perhaps not the be all end all that can be found in some of the other New Eden cultures.
Well I think that's where I'm viewing things. National identity is tied to the concept of being Caldari which is also tied to the concept of the State itself. Combined with centuries of potential Civire/Deteis cultural and genetic intermingling the ethnic and national concepts of being Deteis or Civire have been reduced to the point of being cultural stereotypes based on things like history and literature but hold little actual relevance to a modern citizen of the Caldari State.
This only because the PF available seems to emphasize that Civire and Deteis appear to be more philosophical points of difference in being a Caldari and not two actual separate ethnic identities with differing culture and traditions etc.
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I think it might be more like... old tribes that are part of the nation,
For example in Finland we have a few, we have those that live in the eastern Finland that are known to talk a lot and be full of shit.
We have those that live a bit to the east from the middle part that are a bit slow but trustworthy.
I think we like seven in total.
You can't tell them apart by looks, but by culture.
Sharing of some fundamental truths in their lives.
In the context of the State.
All the Civire could share the culturally fundamental Truth that everything is black and white, there is no debating it.
Once you know something to be True and Right then the issue is settled and there is nothing to discuss about.
This could give rise to their traits of Aggressiveness, Stubbornness, Focus and Patriotism.
While the Deteis would hold a culturally fundamental Truth that there is no black and white, everything is shades of grey and by social interaction you find where the other people are on that scale of things when it comes to any issue.
This would give rise to the traits that Deteis would be known for.
Of course this is all just complete and utter speculation, because the bloodlines are so fundamentally different that they need different brain templates in their clones.
Who knows, perhaps in New Eden it is the actual shape of your brain that determines the traits that you have.
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I think most Caldari roleplayers treat it as both, actually.
While you're Caldari first and Deteis/Civire second; there is a distinct genetic difference between the two. There's a lot we don't know about how different they are genetically, but there is enough evidence to suggest that it's not simply acting a certain way that makes you Civire or Deteis.
People born under one of the two seem to have as much genetic distinction as True Amarr versus Khanid. The obvious physical differences should be a strong enough sign of that, even before you consider the personality traits, tendency for certain occupations, and social status. It's clear that even after centuries of interbreeding (assuming they have been interbreeding), they are still two very distinct bloodlines.
It is worth considering that perhaps there are remnants of a caste/faction system within the State as far as home life goes. Perhaps there are social taboos against marrying those of the opposite bloodline? I think we might be jumping the gun to suggest that it's okay within the State to interbreed. It may not be a spoken rule, or even a controversial issue within the State... but it also simply may not happen often enough for both bloodlines to mix.
While I hate to bring up RL references, consider how long those of different RL ethnicities have been breeding. Yet we still have very distinct cultures and physical traits of African, Asian, Caucasian, and other ethnicities. Despite 'centuries of interbreeding', it's just not prevalent enough to really mix them all together. Meaning, you still have those of a single major ethnicity greatly outnumbering those of indeterminate ethnicity (those of mixed race). The same could be true for the Caldari.
Even if they do interbreed, the differences between Deteis and Civire and the probable trend to marry within the same bloodline doesn't allow for the erasure of the two cultures.
So to answer the OP's question - yes they are very different and distinct cultures, but mostly at home in private. Caldari first, Deteis/civire second... but the distinct differences still exist.
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I would imagine the two bloodlines originated from separate nation-states on Caldari Prime that unified under the Raata Empire, which laid down the roots of the Caldari State. It's quite possible the Deteis and Civire nation-states differend significantly in terms of culture, with the Deteis probably being more apt at forming huge trade networks and the Civire being excellent military strategists. Provided this speculation is true, the Deteis nation-state likely pursued matters with much more subtlety and behind-closed-doors deals, whereas the Civire nation-state handled things in a much more in-your-face militaristic style.
Extrapolating further from this, I can see the "original" Deteis culture emphasizing heavy education in things like interpersonal communication, business, science, and the like. The "original" Civire society was probably a bit more spartan and emphasized patriotism and quick tactical wit and a sharp mind. A Deteis's rank in society was probably earned by their qualifications and formal training, whereas a Civire's rank in their respective society was likely earned by their actions and experience. The two philosophies were found to be perfectly symbiotic when the two cultures unified, and thus the beginnings of the State's meritocratic system were laid.
Just my wild speculation. Thoughts?
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Arguing that the Raata Empire laid the foundation for the State is a misnomer.
It would be like arguing that the Greek City States of Pre-Alexander Greece laid the foundation for the modern Greek state. It is a shared history, to which the Caldari (Deteis & Civire) point, but to argue it laid the foundation for the "modern State" is far reaching. The modern state is a product of the Caldari majority corporations that became fed up with the Gallente controlled government. Based on the timeline, the concept of a corporation is of Gallente origin, the first Caldari corporation being formed a generation after the Cultural Deliverance Society arrived on Caldari Prime.
Maybe Thursday night I will be able to weigh in more ably.
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So to answer the OP's question - yes they are very different and distinct cultures, but mostly at home in private. Caldari first, Deteis/civire second... but the distinct differences still exist.
Have to disagree. The Caldari are not exempt from human nature because of their "unique" status (human nature being a big theme in EVE). That means if they were as distinct as, say, Intaki and Jin-Mei, there is no way the State could be as stable as it is. Rallying populations against the "other" is a common human universal. Look at India; proud of their independence and their history. Multi-ethnic and multi-national, but despite breaking off from a larger empire and being very proud of it (all rally as Indian to outsiders, despite their countless sub-nationalities), there's still conflict, esp. between Hindus and Muslims. The differences between Civire and Deteis must be on the scale of, say, groups within England (Kent vs East End London), rather than the more extreme comparison of Brazil vs Korea.
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The State isn't stable. Without a semi-credible outside threat, it begins to in fight between the corporations (or even with one). For hundreds of years, the Caldari (Civire, Deteis, minor ethnicities that no longer exist) have been faced with a semi-credible outside threat - the Gallente.
The differences between Civire and Deteis could be huge (as in White and Black), but the bonds of genetic code don't matter as much as the corporations they all serve and the survival themselves and those around them. The Deteis and Civire who work for Lai Dai don't trust the Deteis and Civire who work for SuVee (as an example).
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So to answer the OP's question - yes they are very different and distinct cultures, but mostly at home in private. Caldari first, Deteis/civire second... but the distinct differences still exist.
Have to disagree. The Caldari are not exempt from human nature because of their "unique" status (human nature being a big theme in EVE). That means if they were as distinct as, say, Intaki and Jin-Mei, there is no way the State could be as stable as it is. Rallying populations against the "other" is a common human universal. Look at India; proud of their independence and their history. Multi-ethnic and multi-national, but despite breaking off from a larger empire and being very proud of it (all rally as Indian to outsiders, despite their countless sub-nationalities), there's still conflict, esp. between Hindus and Muslims. The differences between Civire and Deteis must be on the scale of, say, groups within England (Kent vs East End London), rather than the more extreme comparison of Brazil vs Korea.
I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing for here, or why the link between Deteis and Civire has anything to do with the Gallente.
I said the two are very distinct cultures, yet there is an element of social blending outside the home. You say you disagree, then compare them to both India and two groups in England? I'm not following.
Also, Dex is totally correct here. The State is -not- stable at all. You'd only need to play a Caldari for a week to figure that one out. in fact, these days we can't even manage to present a unified face to outsiders either. Some of us hate Heth, others idolize him, and a sizable chunk don't even care.
I think what you're suggesting is that there would be racial infighting within the State, because it's in human nature. Despite my laughing at the thinly veiled excuse for racism, I have to ask... who said there wasn't infighting? It may not be lynch mobs and pitchforks... but certainly there would be friction there. That doesn't mean the State has to tear itself apart with a civil rights movement.
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Some very interesting thoughts, my thanks to those that responded :)
The reason it was asked was to try and get some insight into the method of Caldari self-identification which I suppose currently might be considered as:
Deteis/Civire vs. Caldari
Megacorp. Loyal vs. State Loyal
"Old Meritocrat" vs. "New Meritocrat"
Even then it does not appear to be a black and white issue since Caldari at times seem to think in shades of grey and seem quite fine in being able to pick a little from column a and column b, or perhaps a bit more dialectal in thinking where it's a question of scope and degree. A traditionalist Civire loyal to their Mega and the Old Meritocracy might also accept certain notions of Caldari national identity, loyalty to the State and the New Meritocracy, and vice versa. Where they sit on the scale is an individual question.
In regards to the topic, perhaps it really is a question of trying to understand the notion of Caldari nationalism. In many respects I think the State was borne in the same sort of national fires as the French Revolution, Italian Risorigimento, the German unification of 1871 and the establishment of Israel in 1947. Nationalism is an extremely powerful ideology and where the Deteis and Civire fit into concepts of Caldari national identity is an important question to ponder I think.
Being Deteis or Civire appears at times to be well integrated into being Caldari to the point that in many respects they're almost inseparable so being staunchly traditional or not about being Deteis or Civire still does take away from the unified national identity of being a Caldari. If that makes any sense at all.
Granted, I would say the Deteis and Civire and an exploration of their history, culture, traditions and literature would probably also add depth to the Caldari identity.
As for State stability, I think the only thing I might add is that beyond the facade of, "For the State!" it's a very rich and I dare say extremely subtle faction with a very strong undercurrent of conflicting social, political, ideological and corporate forces that makes exploring the place very interesting and intriguing.
The trick, I think, is to view it with the same multiple shades of grey and perspectives the Caldari themselves as a whole seem to maintain.
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Most probably differences between Deteis and Civire gave birth to meritocratic ideals, so each person take its destined place. However, as we can see, meritocratic system doesn't count your heritage, but rather your achievements. In new meritocratic system, unlike the old one, nobody asks what your parents did, but what you can do.
As for nationalism, people call themselves Caldari not because they were born Deteis or Civire, but because they were raised as Caldari, because they got Caldari education, because they live with Caldari and they think as Caldari.
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Interesting tidbits courtesy of Mordu's Legion: (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Mordu's_Legion_(Chronicle))
One of these incidents was the Waschi Uprising, which took place a few decades ago in the Kamokor system. Then, a few radical Caldari attacked settlements of Intakis in the system and proclaimed that the Caldari State was solely for people of Caldari origin. The Caldari authority, as ever fearful that their finely woven social tapestry of corporatism would be torn asunder, sent in their best military units to quell the uprising before it could spread any further.
After the war ended the Intakis were offered cheap land and accommodations in Waschi City on the planet of Kamokor IV. For awhile the Intakis lived peacefully, slowly becoming part of the Waschi community. Yet the presence of the Intakis caused tension in the city and slowly radicals, feeding on the xenophobic tendencies of the Caldari, gained strength. In the end the radicals gained majority in the city and began seriously harassing the Intakis.
A few take-away points:
- Ethnic and racial fanatics exist among the Caldari, however the state-supported paradigm is that of a "social tapestry of corporatism" that presumably transcends race.
- Caldari have "xenophobic tendencies."
- Although the State moved to suppress the xenophobic uprising, the Intaki were still driven out of Waschi and were forced to take matters into their own hands under the leadership of Mordu.
- The Waschi Uprising did not "leave a lasting mark" on Caldari society. This suggests the officially supported paradigm of corporatism over race is still in place.
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Been playing Istvaan as a partial xenophobe since day one. Hates Gallente, mostly pities but generally dislikes Minmatar.
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I would say Caldari nationalism is the defining aspect of the State. On the one hand, the corporations through a variety of means seek to tie national identity to the State and the Megacorps. (Cold Wind was published by a Lai Dai publishing group for instance) and of the CEP they constitute. Yet, too much nationalism works against their interests for it potentially breeds loyalty to groups and organizations that do not support the established order in the State or accept that to be Caldari is to be loyal to the State and thus the Megacorps.
Waschi, Heth, and the support the CPD enjoys all point to the fact that concepts of Caldari nationalism is particularly strong in the State, my interest is trying to see how others see the Civire and Deteis fitting into that identity.
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I'd suggest that cultural loyalty runs deeper than loyalty to a unified political state.
To me it's seemed that there's a traditional package of being a good Caldari person within the context and aegis of your corporation. The idea of loyalty to a Caldari state seems a more recent thing, and paradoxically un-Caldari. That's one of the things that's so troubling about Hethites.
Also, I think Seri's questioning how the Deteis and Civire "lines" would keep separate rather than intermingling. That's a question I find intriguing and suggestive.
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I'd agree that it's more a matter of Caldari cultural identity, rather than loyalty to the State. I think the corporate loyalty is probably more ingrained - and more equivalent to what you would think of as nationalist sentiment..
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A few take-away points:
- Ethnic and racial fanatics exist among the Caldari, however the state-supported paradigm is that of a "social tapestry of corporatism" that presumably transcends race.
I don't think at all, that this is somehow related to race or ethnicity. From my point of view, this fanaticism is based on self determination as Caldari, rather than being born as Civire or Deteis. When Intaki live together, they aren't assimilated into State completely, but rather keep their own customs, habits and beliefs. This makes them alien to Caldari, not their origin.
- Caldari have "xenophobic tendencies."
Like all people do. On words, there is nothing wrong living with peoples of different culture, but in fact it is very uneasy. I've lived a bit with a person of some religion (don't ask me to tell which), that I even knew about a bit. But it gave me some creeps and wtf moments. I bet many peoples can't bear it at all when it continues daily.
- Although the State moved to suppress the xenophobic uprising, the Intaki were still driven out of Waschi and were forced to take matters into their own hands under the leadership of Mordu.
It is in State's interests to keep employees close, but forcing people who are scaring each other to live together won't give positive results! :P
- The Waschi Uprising did not "leave a lasting mark" on Caldari society. This suggests the officially supported paradigm of corporatism over race is still in place.
I still believe that racial problems for Caldari society are insignificant. However, colliding national and corporate interests may give interesting results. With the recent events in Caldari life (and force support from Provist agents), I think national interests can overtake corporate interests.
Been playing Istvaan as a partial xenophobe since day one. Hates Gallente, mostly pities but generally dislikes Minmatar.
*embraces Istvaan* :cube:
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On the topic of xenophobia, I agree with Lithium to a large degree, but feel that human nature itself may assert ultra-nationalist tendencies in some closed or isolated groups, as an influx of new blood threatens (at least in the short term) the meritocratic model. Basically, new people may or may not be more capable than the current incumbents of a given position, and though the mega corporate hierarchy is resilient, the smaller, local authorities are not so insulated. This may lead to a 'they took our jobs' rivalry in addition to, as Lithium pointed out, a dislike for cultural segregation in some communities, leading to what appears to be (and for some is) race hatred.
As for Aelisha's background, being a capsuleer she is somewhat shielded from racial discrimination, but she goes through Caldari intermediaries, frequently of Deteis origin, specifically to deal with baseliner authorities. Generally, ICly, I am very wary of playing up to being a 'fully integrated citizen' as I only have four years of State citizenship under my belt and feel that it would be ill-mannered to claim membership in a meritocratic society at the same level as born citizens, until exemplary activity or life long service distinguish me as such. With capsuleers, however, I feel no such compunction, all of us being somewhat isolated from the laymen and women of the State.
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They can't be too xenophobic, however. One of the few areas regarding the Caldari that CCP hasn't made an effort to ruin is their very harmonious and accepting relationship (relatively speaking) with the Achura. There was even a news article about Caldari trying to follow Achuran traditions for business success or something like that a few years back.
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I think the reason people have a hard time conceptualizing the State in a lot of ways its a marriage between two rather divergent forces.
The "State" was created by megacorps who likely simply wanted more profit (cus thats what theyre designed to do, at least initially), and were willing to go to extremes to get it, who allied with Caldari conservatives and populists who didnt want to lose their culture (and likely positions of cultural, religious and political leadership) to the cultural blob that is the Federation. Both found enough middle ground to eventually merge and create the Caldari ideal as it is today.
This is a tenuous alliance at best, and Im sure it ebbs and flows. Heth seems a waxing of the "Caldari people first!" extreme versus the old "whats good for the megacorps is good for the Caldari". Its likely gone back and forth over the course of its history.
If Caldari culture seems conflicted a lot of times, I think thats more realistic, not less.
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I think the reason people have a hard time conceptualizing the State in a lot of ways its a marriage between two rather divergent forces.
The "State" was created by megacorps who likely simply wanted more profit (cus thats what theyre designed to do, at least initially), and were willing to go to extremes to get it, who allied with Caldari conservatives and populists who didn't want to lose their culture (and likely positions of cultural, religious and political leadership) to the cultural blob that is the Federation. Both found enough middle ground to eventually merge and create the Caldari ideal as it is today.
This is a tenuous alliance at best, and I'm sure it ebbs and flows. Heth seems a waxing of the "Caldari people first!" extreme versus the old "whats good for the megacorps is good for the Caldari". Its likely gone back and forth over the course of its history.
If Caldari culture seems conflicted a lot of times, I think thats more realistic, not less.
Completely agreed. Even the Amarr have a form of institutionalised 'boat rocking' in the form of the reclaiming - as PF mentions the Reclaiming catalyzes their social and economic structures by the addition of traits deemed useful to the whole - a more thorough and ethically questionable practice, but one that highlights even the most staid and static power in the cluster needs a bit of a diversity kick (on it's own terms).
As applies to the State, this waxing and waning of the two sides (society for the economy, the economy as society) represents their particular brand of cultural evolution - if the State was just a business conglomerate, they would have gone the direction of the Serpentis or Cartel a long time ago, tacking on a social structure that suits only the mega corporate elite. As a political or social paradigm gains primacy, it's flaws slowly become known to even the least educated of it's citizens. To avoid revolt or recognition of this, by accident or design, the system flexes within the bounds acceptable to the mass of society; attempting to stay within the bounds of what people find acceptable enough to not find risking their livelihoods or lives in revolt. The four empires represent the most successful of these paradigms so far (though the pirate communities definitely have a claim to the 'it works' model with up to a hundred or more years of existence in many cases), but that isn't to say they are 'perfect systems'. We have a long way to go before the stress-pressure seen in all four is truly tested and one or more may not survive that test. Until then, I see all four empires flexing in their own ways to try and remain stable.
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Well, the Megacorps have always appeared to function like any authoritarian "single party" system: a degree of repression is to an extent accepted so long as they are also able to provide things like economic prosperity and opportunity; security; and stability. Nationalism isn't their only claim to legitimacy although it's probably an important aspect. The reason I think the CPD has such a wide base of support currently is that recession lead to a loss of faith in the corporations which Heth was able to exploit through his vision of a, "New Meritocracy." (Which to me seems to conjure up a line that the current State has "lost its way" and the CPD is seeking a "return" to how the State was during war and secession with the Federation).
As for the reasons behind the formation of the State I still hold that it was due to:
1. The establishment of Caldari colonies after the reverse engineering of the VH-451 gate.
2. Those colonies being established primarily through private Caldari firms and ventures.
3. Those private colonial firms merging into what became Caldari Megas.
4. Friction between Caldari Megas and colonies and what became the Federated Union of Gallente Prime.
I think it just boiled down to Caldari Megas and colonies having preferred their own autonomy and independence of action when it came down to it. Certainly not unsurprising for the six seceding Megas at the time to set their media and PR machines running to create popular support for an "Independent Caldari State" in an atmosphere where the Federation might have been seen as an undue interference in the lives of Caldari colonials. It might have been then that the modern concepts of "Being Caldari" were laid down and defined in popular Megacorp funded programs, media and literature.
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Gottii, both these concepts depict a surface situation around the State. From my point of view, people follow not dictated doctrines like that, but rather their traditions, their mentality. They take ideas from old stories, that are passed through generations, customs, merits and values of parents. And the core of Caldari mentality is following interests of community and self sacrifice for greater good instead of following personal goals. The nation and megacorporation are both communities that a Caldari citizen belongs to. People from above tell him to work for megacorp, and he will do it. People from above tell him to work for Caldari people, and he will do it as well.
Gesakaarin, I can't agree that they function like "single party" system. The system of parties together with democracy was discarded back when Caldari seceded. Typical single party systems that we know, were Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, etc. The government is dominated by one party, and in order to get power, you have to get into party first. You have to follow party rules, and the country have to support and fund this party. Caldari get rid of all of it. Of parties, of government, of funding all these systems. Although my character would jump on you to slit your throat if you say this, from my point of view, Caldari State is a real anarchy.
What we see now, is an incipient government system. Heth, who are trying to unite all Caldari, planted a sprout of this government, that we can see as a position of Executor, CPD and Provists. It would be interesting to see what this will grow into in like a hundred of years. If there won't be external or internal disturbances, most probably position of Executor will turn into proper place of a head of the state, in a form like president or emperor. And of course, CPD will grow into a strong apparatus of officials, who will penetrate most levels of corporate life. But the most marvelous part will be, that all this new system would be meritocratic. Imagine yourself passing exams to become... a president. A real strong meritocratic government, an utopia, that is unachievable in our world, because politicians won't give their power away. Right now in most countries political parties hold power, they can manipulate peoples through media to make votes, but with real meritocratic system they will lose everything.
There may be a problem, when a minority of Caldari will see this new sprouting government system, that they are afraid of, because once they were already under another government: one of Gallente Federation, and they had to fight it. But Heth's politics, where he is aware of it or not, is already fighting that, pronouncing gallentes as enemies, and thus distancing from them.
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Gesakaarin, I can't agree that they function like "single party" system. The system of parties together with democracy was discarded back when Caldari seceded. Typical single party systems that we know, were Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, etc. The government is dominated by one party, and in order to get power, you have to get into party first. You have to follow party rules, and the country have to support and fund this party. Caldari get rid of all of it. Of parties, of government, of funding all these systems. Although my character would jump on you to slit your throat if you say this, from my point of view, Caldari State is a real anarchy.
The analogy was not meant to imply any parallels between past ideology but purely on the fact that each Megacorporation is ruled by its board of directors and the legitimacy of that rule - even if by modern standards it might be seen as repressive - is purely on the basis that the Megacorporation provides tangible benefits to its employees. The rise of the CPD and its wide based support appears to be due to a loss of legitimacy to power of Megacorp. executives due to recession and the belief that advancement was no longer meritocratic but rather through nepotism and corruption.
I do agree generally with the rest of your thoughts and I think what always makes the Caldari interesting however is just the sheer range of opinions and points of friction and conflict that Heth and the CPD have shown to exist in the State. As for the future, who knows, I don't think the corporate elite outside of Kaalakiota (Hell, maybe even in KK) are willing to cede their power and prestige without resistance. :)
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Oh, Im pretty sure both KK and other megacorps will throw rotten tomatoes (and not only tomatoes, but also something, well, more explosive) to those, who will try to force new government over them. But I think it will eventually be done, not by force, but rather by slow evolution through optimization of what they have now.
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On the purely genetic differences between Deteis and Civire: weren't the Deteis the only ones with Tube Child backgrounds?
Could it be that the state has effectively bred an executive and a worker caste?
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On the purely genetic differences between Deteis and Civire: weren't the Deteis the only ones with Tube Child backgrounds?
Could it be that the state has effectively bred an executive and a worker caste?
I addressed that in my Tube Child thread here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3369.0). The simple answer is that Civire culture might not think highly of the Tube Child concept, and might be culturally opting out of the program.
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Well, Civire have always had the background options of "Mercenary" and "Dissident" which seems to imply that some Civire don't integrate as well as Deteis in the corporate structure of the State and either become guns for hire or speak out against it.
Although the idea that all Deteis work as executives and white collar workers while the Civire go off and do manual labour in the salt mines does seem a bit... contrived?
addendum: Of course, it certainly does add a different perspective if the CPD finds the majority of its support from Civire blue collar workers and all those Deteis professionals have an entirely different view on the matter.
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On the purely genetic differences between Deteis and Civire: weren't the Deteis the only ones with Tube Child backgrounds?
Could it be that the state has effectively bred an executive and a worker caste?
I addressed that in my Tube Child thread here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3369.0). The simple answer is that Civire culture might not think highly of the Tube Child concept, and might be culturally opting out of the program.
To expand on that simple answer: it might be that the Civire have historically been more resilient and fecund a race than the Deteis. We also know little of the racial composition of pre-Federation/Federation era Caldari colonies (secret and otherwise). It could be possible that more Civire emigrated from Caldari Prime in those days than did Deteis, which insulated them from the population shock that the Deteis may have experienced during the bombardment of Caldari Prime.
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Although the idea that all Deteis work as executives and white collar workers while the Civire go off and do manual labour in the salt mines does seem a bit... contrived?
I don't think that standards of meritocracy take lineage into consideration. However, if talking about statistics, prevalence of Deteis executives and manual labor Civire is quite possible.
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I think players give way too much trust in a "meritocracy" as a bulwark against corruption and nepotism. In fact, I can think of few easier and better systems for relatively small and elite section of population to maintain control.
Basically, a meritocracy means its run by people who are judged to have the most merit. Who judges those standards? Why, the people at the top of course. They're the ones who set the standards of whats valuable and meritorious. It is a very effective feed-back loop that could keep a rather small section of the population in charge, all while pointing to being a "meritocracy" as a way of legitimizing their positions in society.
"But the tests are standardized! They couldnt be faked!" Well, they wouldnt have to be. Who do you think has more time and resources to study, the child of an executive or the child of a dockworker? Who has more private tutoring? More cultural and intellectual capital passed down to them?
I think people should judge a "meritocracy" with the same jaded and cynical eye they would look at say a "democracy". Both of them can easily be manipulated by the Powers That Be to maintain a stranglehold on the leadership of a society. Again, if anything, it would be far easier to subvert a meritocracy.
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I think people should judge a "meritocracy" with the same jaded and cynical eye they would look at say a "democracy". Both of them can easily be manipulated by the Powers That Be to maintain a stranglehold on the leadership of a society. Again, if anything, it would be far easier to subvert a meritocracy.
I agree, though ICly this is the very reason Aelisha likes the State - as a capsuleer with access to social, mental and perceptive augmentations of the highest order, she can have much higher station and impact in the State (even with their segregation of capsuleers from society at large) than she could in a democratic, tribal or oligarchical/monarchical nation.
As for Sol, well growing up in the system means that even wen you identify with the flaws, it's tough to see the alternatives as palatable (especially when that government made you immortal, rich and generally enabled your progression).
As for players, I think that many of us, myself included, are guilty of drinking our own IC koolaid a little, but tbh I find this is healthy for the community, as most of us, even when guilty of such, can put it to the side for the sake of discussions like these. A bit of OOC passion for a faction goes a long way to building a believable character imo, so long as you don't go full method and start thinking that there is only one true way.
It is for this reason I enjoy Seri's patriotism, Kim's racial/cultural supremacy rants, hard line U'K and Amarr loyalist press releases and the likes. What comes after the statement of intent may be the usual back biting and nonsense, but the hard line aspects or the factions really do provide the skeleton for progressive movements (or practicals in my case) to build around/on/through.
As for the main topic, the Civire/Deteis divide is, as a few have already mentioned, something I feel is culturally ingrained despite the 'meritocracy'. I doubt there is a conspiracy to keep Deteis at the top, as such racial favoritism would become apparent within a few generations as education standards for other ethnic groups fail to rise, but there is no reason why cadres as represented by corporate boards couldn't ensure meritocratic nepotism - the selection of the best from a pool of those loyal to 'the cause' of the mega in question. It may be that Civire are found in more labour oriented or military careers due to the PF supported concept of borderline ancestor worship among the Caldari, in a similar way to 'military families' of the modern world - you go into the career of your forefathers because there is social stock or personal pride in doing so. The Civire born to a marine who goes on to become a bank clerk has less to gain from his parentage/familial reputation than the same Civire who goes on to the officers corps, pushed to succeed but given leeway due to 'a good family name'.
The above is a very simplistic and broad description of how I feel things work, due to the staggering size of the State, but we also have another key element of the Deteis - tube children. Custom 'grown' children raised in State creches for a variety of tasks. For those of you into 40k lore this all feels a bit Schola Progenium (as State creches also house orphans afaik) and a great way to indoctrinate individuals in corporate and State culture. The high number of Deteis functionaries may then be explained by simple genetics - they have been bred from the gene-stock of the best and brightest (there may even be some law in place that individuals at a given GPA/achievement level must donate gametes to the tube program).
Nature not being the end of the argument, this tube/orphan program will likely have to be significantly funded to ensure the highly militarised, tube-program endorsing State raised children ready for the employment demands of tomorrow. So here you have a program that is only applied to the Deteis in large enough numbers to provide capsuleer viable specimens over time, entering them from artificial womb to end of education into a system that is identified as 'of value to the State'. In a way, Gotti, I feel that this is the biggest element that backs up your assertions of Meritocratic subversion, on a scale that would be industrial and horrifying IRL.
Even with nepotism out of the picture as a tool of control for anything but the upper echelons, entire generations are raised from a sterile, state-sponsored cradle to a likely ignominious, state-funded grave (vat) - all the while praising the State for 'giving them everything they have' - a truth that is reinforcement to patriots and nationals and likely a sickening corruption of the natural order to serve the corporate machine to outsiders.
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Sounds very viable,
State raised children would be more highly indoctrinated therefore more productive than 'free range' children.
Heh, kind of like the guy in the series Profit.
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Yes, that's right. Tube Kat is totally awesomest and is the best of the best of the blondes.
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Yes, that's right. Tube Kat is totally awesomest and is the best of the best of the blondes.
Bred for superiority, that is for sure. But free range Intaki is still the eve master race. Sorry :(.
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I'm probably just going to echo what many others have said already, but I'll toss my two cents in.
:o I think the divide between Civire and Deteis is largely genetic with a healthy sprinkling of racial stereotyping mixed in. Much in the same way we characterize Latin people as being 'hot headed and passionate', Asians being good at math, or Irish as being ghostly white gingers with an unhealthy drinking habit. It's fun to play off of these stereotypes for humor, but obviously people are more complex and diverse than these two-dimensional representations can account for.
:P As for diversity of cultures, the the mega corporations (aka the State) have monopolies over entire regions of space with control over all media, education, law enforcement, and employment. Imagine an entire city of millions of citizens run by Microsoft, where generations of families live, work, reproduce, and die. Add in some tube children, and we have entire generations of people being raised by the State, who have come to depend on it and its fellow citizens to ensure that everything runs smoothly. There's no doubt that within separate planets or moons, people develop certain sub-cultures, but there will be central values which all Caldari citizens will have in common.
:| Meritocracy is a rather common phrase when used in association with the State, but to a degree all societies reward people on some level for their ability in their chosen profession. The reason why it's associated more frequently for Caldari is most likely the corporate culture they live in, where results make a tangible impact on profits, and corporations love those! It's how corporations are supposed to work in the real world too, but anyone who works in a corporate office environment will know office politics and interpersonal relationships can corrupt any true meritocracy. Cronyism and favoritism are the grease that lubricate any corporate machine and both the Gallente and the Caldari have their share of it.
:oops: Xenophobia is a useful tool for the State for a variety of reasons. Corporations can keep inter-faction conflict to a minimum by diverting attention on the enemy rather than within. With control of the media, education and entertainment, the mega-corporations can make bold-faced lies to the public without reprisal or second-guessing and people will accept it as fact. Plus it makes sure that external cultural influences will have very little impact on the residents, who will naturally be wary of any influence from outsiders, thus ensuring its own masters are the only trusted sources of knowledge.
I really like the Caldari State. It's probably one of the most interesting factions in EVE lore, but tough to interact with unless you're 'in'. :)
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I'm rather glad the way the bloodlines stacked up. Civire get all the "heavy lifting" genes, while my bloodline gets the ones that make us look like Cary Grant.
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Well, this evelopedia article (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State) answered most of my questions on the topic.
Especially these points:
"Because of the megacorporations defining their subjects’ identities, the differences between the Deteis and Civire lay more in social habits, formal interactions, and philosophical approaches to being Caldari. They can not be considered distinct ethnicities like the other groups in New Eden. Their characterizing social habits and mores are instead a product of their familial upbringing, emphasized as a constituent heritage of the wider Caldari identity, but otherwise not an important aspect of a citizen’s life. Those outside the State generally do not make a distinction (which the Caldari are more than happy to encourage). "
"Although the Civire and Deteis are proud of their heritage and the subtle social distinction between the two, both of these groups consider them to be of one Caldari race. The corporations emphasize this in their enculturation process, enforcing a single Caldari culture and identity for the purposes of unity and cohesion. The Caldari are monolingual for these reasons. Although dialects exist depending on location, the corporations ensure that these linguistic variations do not prevent all Caldari citizens from being capable of fully understanding one another."
"Similar to the Gallente, the Caldari tend to place minimal emphasis on ethnicity. They identify as Caldari first, their birth corporation second, and infrequently their ethnic heritage third."
"Cultural purity is thus intrinsically tied to racial purity amongst the Caldari. Individuals with parents of differing ethnicities are dubbed ‘halfbreeds’, and are victim of enormous social and institutional persecution in the State."
So I guess to summarize, the Civire and Deteis are distinct ethnicities (and there's strong social customs and conformity pressures to keep them distinct for cultural reasons) but there's also a much stronger emphasis on remaining loyal to your corporation and to being "Caldari" than your actual ethnicity.
I think that entire article really does point out how subtle and at times contradictory being Caldari actually is for the people that live in the State.