Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silver Night on 01 May 2010, 19:30
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Thought I'd make this to continue discussion from the 'Angels, Serpentis, and Syndicate' (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=355.0) thread.
The cooperation between these three (and the friction or perhaps even outright hostility too) is fairly murky. To my own knowledge mostly established because of standings IG - the common rationale being that they have no choice but to avoid widespread fighting among themselves to counterbalance the Angel/Serp bloc.
Wanted to open it up for discussion. :D
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I've understood it as a means of saying they're willing to stand together against the Empires and the Angels (Serpentis are too much of a joke, since the vast majority of their fleet is Angel based anyway). However, since there is no decisive global conflict its understandable if this pact or alliance is somewhat lax and shaky.
As I said in the thread you mentioned, I am damn near certain there was/is a border conflict between the Covenant and the Nation, as well as the Nation and the Angels. If that was from a Sansha mission it will probably be a while before I run into it again. However I'm inclined to think it was a system message from somewhere in Delve/Querious/Period Basis... I suppose I will have to explore around there.
Food for thought; I wonder if the Guristas buy stuff from the Sansha for their dangerous life style? Robotics seems to be a possibility, but the Guristas themselves seem quite tech savvy...
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As I said in the thread you mentioned, I am damn near certain there was/is a border conflict between the Covenant and the Nation, as well as the Nation and the Angels. If that was from a Sansha mission it will probably be a while before I run into it again. However I'm inclined to think it was a system message from somewhere in Delve/Querious/Period Basis... I suppose I will have to explore around there.
I'd think the Blooders and Sanshas would have had to call for a ceasefire of some sort to prevent them from mutually wiping each other out (or at least seriously, seriously weakening each other) in an extended border war. Whether this would extend into a working relationship isn't so clear.
Food for thought; I wonder if the Guristas buy stuff from the Sansha for their dangerous life style? Robotics seems to be a possibility, but the Guristas themselves seem quite tech savvy...
If anything, I'd exect the Guristas to buy shield technology from the Sanshas.
Also, I'd be surprised if the Blooders didn't have a relationship with the Angels. The Angels have the ability to get the Blooders whatever they might want for their more questionable rituals, and the "no questions asked" policy as well.
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Black market within the black market?
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As I said in the thread you mentioned, I am damn near certain there was/is a border conflict between the Covenant and the Nation, as well as the Nation and the Angels. If that was from a Sansha mission it will probably be a while before I run into it again. However I'm inclined to think it was a system message from somewhere in Delve/Querious/Period Basis... I suppose I will have to explore around there.
I'd think the Blooders and Sanshas would have had to call for a ceasefire of some sort to prevent them from mutually wiping each other out (or at least seriously, seriously weakening each other) in an extended border war. Whether this would extend into a working relationship isn't so clear.
Food for thought; I wonder if the Guristas buy stuff from the Sansha for their dangerous life style? Robotics seems to be a possibility, but the Guristas themselves seem quite tech savvy...
If anything, I'd exect the Guristas to buy shield technology from the Sanshas.
Also, I'd be surprised if the Blooders didn't have a relationship with the Angels. The Angels have the ability to get the Blooders whatever they might want for their more questionable rituals, and the "no questions asked" policy as well.
Until they fix the incredibly f*d up Sansha faction table to represent their new shield tanking focus, in my mind the Sansha are still masters of armor nanotechnology. Granted, they could be expanding into shield technology if they were buying it from the Guristas...
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Pith stuff is what works best with current Sansha tech, after all. :D
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Hmm. Well, I've always seen the lines as being drawn along the border of Idealists/Practicals.
If you think about it, both the Angels and the Serpentis come across as factions devoted to profit. They don't do what they do for revenge, or for an ideal, or for a religion, but for money and power. It's why they get along so well, and why its so easy for others, such as the Thukkers, to work with them.
Contrast that with the other three:
The Guristas are rebelling against State/Fed culture, pursuing a near-anarchic individualism while still cooperating towards mutually beneficial goals, while doing their level best to take revenge on the systems that spawned them.
The Blood Raiders are originally heretical refugees, devoted towards pursuing a variant of Amarrian faith that demands blood, often the blood of those most capable of harming them. That's dedication.
The Sansha: dedicated towards (at least) establishing a utopia, an unfortunate casualty of which will be free will, and (at most) inducting the rest of the cluster into it.
With the Angels and Serpentis, they do what they do for money. With the Guristas, Sansha, and Blood Raiders, I'd argue that money is just the means - they need it, but it's subservient to their ultimate purposes.
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Sanshaz are teh bestest and have the spikeyest ships. WTB moar sansha ship designs plz. If CCP doesn't do it I'm going to have to. <3
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The Guristas are rebelling against State/Fed culture
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Category:Organizations
The Guristas are traditional pirates in the sense that their operation is not based around some creed or ideology, but rather a plain and simple greed.
http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3881
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There's some interesting points there - and there is actually a certain amount of contradiction in the wiki blurb you linked (No ideology but 'more honorable') - and I'm tempted to start a new thread about it. Particularly with the Auftragstaktik concept (maybe even two threads, one for Guristas and one for Auftragstaktik as part of a template for the social contract used in the State).
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The Blooders and Sanshas have a common enemy: The Amarr. They also share borders. It is simply mutual interest.
The Guristas and Sansha have a common drive: Technology. Mutual interest again. And isn't the Gurista's leader downloaded into a computer? Given the Nation's Research, I can't imagine there's not a sizeable enough reason for the two of them to play mostly nice from that alone.
My confusion in the whole thing:
The Amarr were the most in bed with Sansha. The True Slave implants were a three-way joint project between Sansha's Nation, The Jove, and The Amarr. They were best friends. Right up to the end, in fact, as the Amarr were the last nation to join the coalition to avoid being ostracized (this is actually in the Sansha's Nation PF).
The Caldari were the next-most in bed with Sansha. He was a Caldari. The True Slave implants were built from Caldari parts. They had a fairly positive relationship, both due to his connections and also due to his focus on technological advancement, which is one of the Caldari ways.
The Minmatar almost lept out of their own skins with rage when they found out what Sansha was doing, having been leery of him to begin with, and having been slaves for so long they could not accept what was being done.
The Gallente were untrusting of Sansha and his Nation because he was Caldari, and then were the first to flip their shit when they found out about the True Slave program, and led the coalition of Empires against the Nation.
WHY ARE THE AMARR AND CALDARI SANSHA'S NATION'S PRIMARY ENEMIES????
No one, not even the old AURORA members or CCP's writers in any of the IRC chats have been able to answer that question for me.
Because it is a horrible hole in the story.
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The Amarr because the Nation (currently) encroaches on their territory. The Caldari because publicly they certainly have to appear extremely anti-Nation or be accused of collusion, perhaps?
I don't think the hole is all that bad.
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Sansha's Nation not allowed feelings of vengeance?
My point being, it's not a one-way street is it?
Look at it from the point of view of the Nation considering the Caldari and Amarr their deadly foes precisely because, as they may see it, the Amarr and Caldari stabbed them in the back when the core empires joined as one to stamp the Nation out.
Cosmo
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The hole is pretty bad. It's like a giant void in the middle of the backstory that came about because before the backstory was finalized, they stuck all the different pirate entities where their fittings would be most useful. i.e. Sansha between Amarr/Caldari, Guristas on Caldari, Angels between Matari/Gallente, etc.
Then created the stories for them later.
Sansha's Nation's story is still barely expanded upon, and when it was released it was a giant "DOUBLE-EWE TEE EFF" in comparison to where it goes.
They encroach on the Amarr Empire because that's where CCP happened to put them. The Caldari have the hatred for the same reason. After CCP put them there they gave them a really cool story that didn't coincide with their activities.
And no one ever really seemed to care or attempt to justify it.
And as to this:
The Caldari because publicly they certainly have to appear extremely anti-Nation or be accused of collusion, perhaps?
No. I asked. This is almost entirely perpetuated by myself, Dust Angel, Izzy, and Ghost, and stemmed from Dust and I coming up with an excuse. ;)
Sansha's Nation not allowed feelings of vengeance?
My point being, it's not a one-way street is it?
Look at it from the point of view of the Nation considering the Caldari and Amarr their deadly foes precisely because, as they may see it, the Amarr and Caldari stabbed them in the back when the core empires joined as one to stamp the Nation out.
Possible, yes, however were this the case you'd think I'd have gotten an answer about it the numerous times I've asked. Therein lies the problem. When CCP doesn't know why something doesn't mesh with the backstory by appearances, there's a bit of a problem.
That I suppose is my primary issue.
Besides, were that the case they would have it worse for the Caldari than the Amarr; and they spend more time invading Amarr space than Caldari space, because the Caldari jumped ship way early, and the Amarr were very reluctant to turn away.
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The Amarr seem to have laid waste to an entire region in Sansha's Nation by themselves. Moreover, that region was Esoteria, which evidently was the big upper-crust civilian population center of Sansha's Nation, an easy target once the "Gauntlet of Stain" had been traversed. This traversing was probably made easier by the forces of the other Empires engaging Nation forces more directly in the much more heavily fortified Stain. To draw some sort of RL comparison (a contrived one, but it serves to illustrate the point), the Amarrians were dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki while the other Empires were fighting their way from island to island.
I'm mostly drawing these conclusions on the basis of the region description of Esoteria. The region description of Impass offers additional insights into the politics behind the facade regarding the pre-war Amarr/Sansha relationship.
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As a note, the guy who got his consciousness uploaded into a computer wasn't Fatal or the Rabbit, but Todo Kirkinen, first CEO of Zainou Biotech.
I'd assume that the case with the Guristas is "an enemy of my enemy is my friend". Also, unless I am really wrong, originally Blood Raiders and Sanshas were hostile to each other - this was changed in a patch without any mention, just like the Amarr-Khanid standings.
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A thought have struck me, that perhaps the Takmahl are the "missing" link between the Blood Raiders and Sansha's Nation. At least, it could very easily be made so by the Storyline team without changing any prime fiction.
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As a note, the guy who got his consciousness uploaded into a computer wasn't Fatal or the Rabbit, but Todo Kirkinen, first CEO of Zainou Biotech.
An interesting fact that may go some way to explaining Zainou's interest in the Sleepers.
Also, Todo was the first. "First" implies there were others who followed, and the claim itself might be somewhat outdated and historically ignorant now...
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That statement has always intrigued me more than almost anything else. I ran a personal story arc based on it once, but nothing that went very widespread. I'd like to see more discussion around the implications of it (though obviously not in this thread so Silver and Havo don't smack me around).
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Did something happen that dragged this thread back up again? I think I'm missing something.
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I'd assume that the case with the Guristas is "an enemy of my enemy is my friend". Also, unless I am really wrong, originally Blood Raiders and Sanshas were hostile to each other - this was changed in a patch without any mention, just like the Amarr-Khanid standings.
Anyone have any recollection of when this happened? If it did happen, it would sort of change the historical dynamics. It would make some sense they used to be competitors, cause they operate in proximity and both raid for people.
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I'd assume that the case with the Guristas is "an enemy of my enemy is my friend". Also, unless I am really wrong, originally Blood Raiders and Sanshas were hostile to each other - this was changed in a patch without any mention, just like the Amarr-Khanid standings.
Anyone have any recollection of when this happened? If it did happen, it would sort of change the historical dynamics. It would make some sense they used to be competitors, cause they operate in proximity and both raid for people.
Sansha Ship Log 363587633
This salvaged data from a destroyed Sansha vessel reveals the following: "Blood Raiders invade our territory. Their pestilence is not welcome in the perfect eden of Sansha. The Power that Master Sansha has given us has enabled us great feats in the fight against the Raiders. An outpost has been built in X4-WLO, to ensure a firm foothold for the soldiers of Sansha in Blood Raider space."
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There's all sorts of opinions on the Blood Raiders, Sani Sabik, etc. etc. All of them are valid. Below are mine. I should also point out that I haven't read either of the EVE books, which I think feature the Blood Raiders pretty heavily.
That being said, I've always thought the Blood Raiders were primarily a criminal organization with some religious leanings, rather than a religious cult that also engages in criminal activity on the side.
Sacrificing kids, taking slaves, draining ships' crews of blood may have some sort of religious significance for your average Raider, but I'd guess that many of them realize that these (very evil) actions serve practical purposes as well. It is this practicality that forms the basis of their "friendly" relations with other pirate factions.
I think the Raiders' practical orientation has been illustrated pretty well in the PF (that I'm aware of), kidnapping Hnolku and the Insorum attack, Chamberlain Karsoth, etc. That's not to say that the Blood Raiders are criminals in the vein of the Angel Cartel, the Guristas, or the Serpentis, who represent more traditional models of organized crime (although they all probably engage in some pretty frightening and villainous things on the side as well).
When it comes to the Sansha, I can certainly see how their alliance could be very tenuous. If you think about the ideological purists on each side, you have quite a conflict.
Sansha True-Citizen: "We will create a perfect society, no pain, no suffering, utopia. All people have value and purpose in our world. Everyone unite!"
Sani Sabik Cultist: "Lesser beings are undeserving of such a world, why give them anything at all? They exist to feed us."
So, what it must come down to, because both sides are certainly allied today (Master Kuvakei had some very nice things to say about CR-SE, joke's on him haha), is that while it's very easy to characterize the the Raiders as these sort of stereotypical cultist lunatics, they are in fact filled with reasonable and practical people more focused on acquiring money and influence than searching for mystical artifacts to complete ancient rituals or drinking goblets of blood.
This isn't to say that people can't draw pentagrams on the floor of their cargo holds if they want to, but that's not for me.
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Alternately, I could see a rationalization that might be possible between idealists on the Sansha and Blooder sides - if the Sansha system is viewed as a few who are worthy subjugating the weak. True Slaves are 'in their place' etc.
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I thought this was an interesting quote from Revan, actually... which, would find some common ground between Nation and the Blood Raiders. It's more 'elitist' and rigid than Nation's plan by comparison, but the general concept is still there.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1349421/page/1#24
The Sani Sabik
Definition
A group of genetically-enhanced individuals (at least at the highest echelons) which include many of the Universe's wealthiest people, top political leaders, and corporate elite, as well as members of the so-called Black Nobility of Amarr.
Their modus Operandi is to affect control over politics, business and warfare and to dramatically reduce the cluster's population by allowing only the strong of each race to reproduce and a number of the population who will live to feed the needs and minds of their leaders.
While the name Blood raiders is the term most frequently used today to loosely refer to anyone involved in this stream of faith, the study of exactly who makes up these groups is a complex and intricate one.
Extracts from the Apocrypha, book of Initiations VII, verses 2,3:
"In the Perfect World
There will be one religion, just the Sani Sabik philosophy of richness, power and wealth.
There will be one government.
There will be one army.
Homelessness will never be an option. The unfit to produce wealth will be eliminated.
Hunger will never cross the lips of man. The unfit to sustain himself will be eliminated.
There will be no poverty. The unfit to use life as it is given will be eliminated.
There will be no diseased. The unfit to use his body and mind to the greater development of mankind will be eliminated.
There will be no evil, as the concept of evil itself will be forever banished from the minds of men.
There will be no waste.
The Universe will function as a perfect machine.
Divinity and men, are one"
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Revan as a source of information that is canon is not very trustworthy.
The genetically enhanced thing is something based on the Bloodveil stuff which made her into a psionic assassin while the rest of the bunch was not much different.
Takmahl were Amarrians that left the Empire when the Empire went back into space that were heavily into biotech.
According to the COSMOS stuff most of the Blood Raider tech is based on their technology.
Also the Apocrypha that they had was basically seeing everyone as equal, therefore to the status quo of the Empire it would have lowered the True Amarr to the same level as the other people of the Empire, basically destroying the hierarchy of the Empire.
I think Lou can easily guide you to the COSMOS stuff connected to the Takmahl.
Perhaps the Sansha seeing Amarr as enemies is simple as this:
True Citizen slaves taken when the Nation was brought down by the coalition.
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Revan as a source of information that is canon is not very trustworthy.
The genetically enhanced thing is something based on the Bloodveil stuff which made her into a psionic assassin while the rest of the bunch was not much different.
Takmahl were Amarrians that left the Empire when the Empire went back into space that were heavily into biotech.
According to the COSMOS stuff most of the Blood Raider tech is based on their technology.
Also the Apocrypha that they had was basically seeing everyone as equal, therefore to the status quo of the Empire it would have lowered the True Amarr to the same level as the other people of the Empire, basically destroying the hierarchy of the Empire.
I think Lou can easily guide you to the COSMOS stuff connected to the Takmahl.
Perhaps the Sansha seeing Amarr as enemies is simple as this:
True Citizen slaves taken when the Nation was brought down by the coalition.
Yeah we're pretty big on the Empire because they basically burned down Esoteria and enslaved whatever didn't explode.
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Revan as a source of information that is canon is not very trustworthy.
While I'm not going to defend Revan, my opinions remain objective and I really don't care for any sort of bashing in general. If anything, please show me a counterpoint.
Perhaps the Sansha seeing Amarr as enemies is simple as this:
True Citizen slaves taken when the Nation was brought down by the coalition.
To add to what Ghost said:
Esoteria
When Sansha's Nation was at the height of its power, Esoteria was one of its richest territories. Scholars, philosophers, scientists, and many of its most affluent True Citizens made it their home. The occupants relied on the remoteness of the region to keep them safe, anticipating that the legions of True Slaves in Stain would remain an impenetrable shield that none could pass.
When the Alliance of Empires swept down upon the Nation, the shield was shattered and their forces crushed under the alliance’s unassailable might. Then, like barbarians of old, the forces of the Amarr Empire crashed into Esoteria, pillaging and slaughtering all before them.
Now, all that remains of the Nation’s once-pervasive presence in the area is floating husks; great ruins that stand as both a eulogy to Sansha's former dream and a stark warning to any who might provoke the ire of all four Empire. The Nation continues to send their own ships into the area, scouring it for any bit of lost technology that might give them an edge in their attempt to resurrect Sansha's dream.
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Any individual, from Revan to lallara to Ghost to you and me, shouldn't be considered a trustworthy source of canon without citations.
Player-created content is great and awesome, but we should understand it as such.
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Opinions are pretty neat, huh? ;)
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Opinions are pretty neat, huh? ;)
My fav: "Opinions are like assholes; everybody's got one"
I like what Revan throws up as player content, but that doesn't mean it applies to Meb a lot of the time. Apart from the fact that Meb comes from quite a different line of Sani Sabik beliefs and background, she follows particular kinds of Sani Sabik teachings.
The Apocrypha Revan quotes, is taken kinda like the bible of Sani Sabik. It contains heretical script in it that relates to self-empowerment to the point of finding a God in each person. I need to read up on the Takmahl, but I think they used it to destroy the caste system, where as Blood Raiders and Sani Sabik would use it to fortify their quest for eternal life and power.
You'd probably find a slightly different version of the Apocrypha in Revans hands and other Amarrian elite than you would in Mebs or the Covenants. Revans would highlight scriptures that support power and wealth, while Mebs and the Covenants would probably favour force and domination.
But then again, Meb might support Revan regardless of what her Apocrypha says, for reasons of her own ;)
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there is one piece from the Apocryphon that you can easily see ingame - the description of Sahtogas.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Apocryphon
Apocryphon, Lost Passages.
"My word lies within all,
All it requires is the breath of faith,
To ignite the fire,
So the lost can find their way,
So the fallen can rise,
To take their place as my chosen,
For you are all my creation,
And are all equal in my kingdom."
If there are any other pieces of Sani Sabik scripture in existence, I don't know them. Maybe there will be some mentioned in exploration and deadspace complexes, but I'd have thought someone might have mentioned them somewhere. :ugh:
Any other scripture quotes, you'd have to be wary of. If it's not in http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Scriptures it may be a player scripture quote.
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Meb opens can of bloodworms (http://"http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1358879")
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Boma opens a can of Bomaworms:
Quoted from the Thrice Illustrious Scriptures of The Awesomness of Boma who Doth Do the Boma:
"Sanis Ajoke
For vampirey people are lols
Rivet boots
Cannot take seriously
No matter how hard I try
Space vampire goth lols
Intolerance is recognized
Silly vampire is silly no matter what
Is a Hot Topic harr harr"