Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Arnulf Ogunkoya on 30 Aug 2012, 15:47
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So, what can enemies talk about that doesn't end with them ranting or verbally sniping at each other?
Ideas anyone? One that comes to mind is that two groups/people may be opposed but they may have other enemies in common.
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The things they hold in common that make them human: family and humor. When bitter enemies find it possible to meet and talk to one another without the threat of immediate violence between then, I think these are the themes most likely to transcend cultural boundaries because they are integral to the human experience.
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Bastian would probably stick to neutral topics, he might talk about the economy, traffic conditions, landmarks or intergalactic celebrities. Since Foiritan's ideology is close to his heart, he might also try to proselytize a bit. I don't see him going to an enemy hangout just to have a casual chat, he would need a solid reason.
He would not try to seek common ground or understand the enemy, because
-there is already a good basic understanding where the characters are coming from on OOC level, and "understanding"/"unlikely friends syndrome" would basically just mean adding more OOC flavor to the IC interactions,
-he's a faction loyalist and being unbiased or understanding the enemy would defeat the whole point,
-attempts to befriend everyone IC kills IC conflict and narrative.
The things they hold in common that make them human: family and humor. When bitter enemies find it possible to meet and talk to one another without the threat of immediate violence between then, I think these are the themes most likely to transcend cultural boundaries because they are integral to the human experience.
New Eden is a grimdark, harsh place where life has little value. Maybe it does fit the atmosphere that somebody would choose to send his enemies after his family. When it comes to humor, it does not transcend cultural boundaries that well even in RL, let alone in deep space where the civilizations have been evolving in widely different directions for thousands of years, so I'm not sure how well that would work.
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New Eden is a grimdark, harsh place where life has little value. Maybe it does fit the atmosphere that somebody would choose to send his enemies after his family. When it comes to humor, it does not transcend cultural boundaries that well even in RL, let alone in deep space where the civilizations have been evolving in widely different directions for thousands of years, so I'm not sure how well that would work.
:roll: I am assuming of course one of the hypothetical parties hasn't sent assassins to kill the others family. Not every damn interaction in New Eden has to reek of grimdark.
I am also assuming one of the parties isn't horribly scarred by melodramatic childhood tragedies involving parents, siblings, or the like. In general, most people have a mother and have good things to say about her. This is one thing two bitter enemies are quite likely to have in common (and can therefore use as a starting point for conversation) regardless of other differences.
And humor, particularly physical or slapstick humor, does transcend cultural boundaries. We all have human bodies that can and often do funny things (voluntarily or not).
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Fod....good wine....crazy CONCORD shenanigans....
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In general, most people have a mother and have good things to say about her.
More evidence that tube people have no souls.
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In general, most people have a mother and have good things to say about her.
More evidence that tube people have no souls.
They have mothers too... just like gingers. :twisted:
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Azdan's had a number of "polite" conversations with his enemies ranging from history, CONCORD policies, ship designs and technology, science, the arts, literature, theology and a number of other things.
What he doesn't talk about is slavery, the Reclaiming and culture usually.
Malcolm didn't really talk to people unless he was sharing tea with them, which often resulted in tea and cuisine being a common topic.
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Sport, especially common sports. While the Caldari & Amarr might not share any or the Minmatar & Gallente, I expect that there common sports between the Caldari & Gallente and the Amarr & Minmatar.
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I'd say if my own character came to see an enemy sharing similar values and principles primarily related to them having a sense of duty, intelligence or talent then they'd be open to dialogue because then they'd be a "Noble" enemy or a "Worthy Opponent". There's also a great degree of difference between what they express in public venues such as the IGS/Summit where as a loyal citizen they have a sense of obligation to wear their public face and express opinions that may personally not agree with totally in the name of unity and reinforcing the patriotic State line.
In private though they've had casual conversations on a range of topics with others who, since they aren't loyal to Sukuuvestaa are potential enemies to them. Besides, they tend to hold to the view that if one must kill a man it costs nothing to be polite. That and I'd say they have a very anachronistic and Clausewitzian I guess? Worldview on the interactions between peoples and nations where war and conflict are simply the natural consequences of differing interests and politics and does not require the investment of emotion or ideology.
It's why they don't touch the eschatology behind the Amarr/Minmatar conflict with a ten foot pole because getting drawn into a discussion about fighting a war that isn't about economic or political advantage makes no damn sense to them.
Alcohol, neutral ground, and steering away from divisive topics probably helps in breaking the ice. I would also say talking about the arts, literature, and film is probably a good place to start with State/Fed discussions since they no doubt export a lot of it to each other. Or how your favourite show got censored by the Provists or SDII because it was unpatriotic and corrupting the youth. :lol:
Oh God, now I just had the image of a Caldari soap drama and I can't stop laughing.
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Some topics have worked well for me for sparking long conversations with enemies:
"You should stay away from me. You could get hurt, and I'd hate to see that happen for a stupid reason."
"I got the impression that I was primaried in that fight. That ... was surprising. Care to tell me why?"
(while evading being hunted down) "So, how was your day?"
"I salvaged what I could from your wreck. Would you like me to leave it here (in the local system) or have it hauled elsewhere for you?"
"Hi. Got a minute? My calendar says we last spoke on (date). Is that accurate? It is? Great! Now, would you mind reminding me what I said?"
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Engaging in a conversation with your enemy is counter productive.
You destroy your capability of dehumanization there.
You can yell slogans at them and treat them like the animals that they are.
Never treat your enemies as humans.
It might make you hesitate the next time you are about to kill them.
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As general counterpoints to that - it might make them hesitate, too, maybe. I like people to feel comfortable and appreciated around my characters. They leak intel more easily and it's easier to get a scra-.. I mean, there's no reason not to be polite. Dehumanization and general "total war" propaganda is for mobilizing faceless mobs and nation-states. Capsuleers are a highly fluid, independent elite. Not to mention long-lived. Yesterday, -year, or -decade's enemies may become your friends, as well as the other way around.
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Engaging in a conversation with your enemy is counter productive.
You destroy your capability of dehumanization there.
You can yell slogans at them and treat them like the animals that they are.
Never treat your enemies as humans.
It might make you hesitate the next time you are about to kill them.
Depends on who it is - I imagine most characters, just like most people, have enemies, and then they have Enemies.
The former are the people who happen to be in conflict with you, for a variety of temporary reasons or for understandable or 'forgivable' reasons, such as justifiable causes, the politics of the day, accident, conflicting ideologies but similar beliefs and values, and so on. This person can be understood - putting yourself in his shoes is not hard because you are in the exact same situation, just with a different uniform and flag. You can forgive him, even if you fully intend to do your duty and kill him, because he might as well have been you.
Then there is the FUCKING ENEMY. :evil: The type of entity that are below human, soulless, pain-and-death-deserving SCUM. The kind that are entirely and mercilessly opposed, ideologically, practically, morally, politically and so on. The type of enemy you have no qualms about killing, whose death you enjoy, the type of entity you have no interest in understanding, because there is nothing to understand - the enemy might as well be a non-humanoid alien with far to many limbs and/or eyes to invoke any sympathy.
IMHO, having to many of either or only representatives in one camp is a bad idea - either you come off to friendly, or to hostile, and the dynamics between you and your opponents remains the same, each time.
Having said that, having the disposition to off the type 1 enemy without hesitation might be a source of RP in itself;
"I believed we understood each other..." :(
"We do, but war is war regardless." :|
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Layered on top of factional allegiances are familiarities and friendships, some of them developed and maintained over years. In one way, yes, this dilutes the factions; in another it adds richness to the relationships and helps stitch the roleplay circles together.
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People who need to dehumanize the enemy in order not to hesitate when it's necessary to kill them are little better than animals, as they are slaves to their emotions.
Everything that is needed to have a conversation between enemies or opponents without them ranting or verbally sniping at each other is that both parties are prepared and willing to behave like civilized people while talking to one another.
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Nah, the dehumanization is a defensive measure.
They are the animals then, and you can do anything to them.
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Engaging in a conversation with your enemy is counter productive.
You destroy your capability of dehumanization there.
You can yell slogans at them and treat them like the animals that they are.
Never treat your enemies as humans.
It might make you hesitate the next time you are about to kill them.
Depends on who it is - I imagine most characters, just like most people, have enemies, and then they have Enemies.
The former are the people who happen to be in conflict with you, for a variety of temporary reasons or for understandable or 'forgivable' reasons, such as justifiable causes, the politics of the day, accident, conflicting ideologies but similar beliefs and values, and so on. This person can be understood - putting yourself in his shoes is not hard because you are in the exact same situation, just with a different uniform and flag. You can forgive him, even if you fully intend to do your duty and kill him, because he might as well have been you.
Then there is the FUCKING ENEMY. :evil: The type of entity that are below human, soulless, pain-and-death-deserving SCUM. The kind that are entirely and mercilessly opposed, ideologically, practically, morally, politically and so on. The type of enemy you have no qualms about killing, whose death you enjoy, the type of entity you have no interest in understanding, because there is nothing to understand - the enemy might as well be a non-humanoid alien with far to many limbs and/or eyes to invoke any sympathy.
IMHO, having to many of either or only representatives in one camp is a bad idea - either you come off to friendly, or to hostile, and the dynamics between you and your opponents remains the same, each time.
Having said that, having the disposition to off the type 1 enemy without hesitation might be a source of RP in itself;
"I believed we understood each other..." :(
"We do, but war is war regardless." :|
I can see the point about dehumanising your targets. This is what a lot of military training is about. However understanding your targets can help you predict their actions and, thus fight them more effectively. Unfortunately sooner or later you realise that you have, in fact, been killing other people. That is when the fun begins as I understand it.
And I agree completely about there being more than one sort of enemy.
Just to be clear. All I am thinking of here is communication of some sort. This doesn't need to be "bar" or "party" roleplay.
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Well, this might seem a very generalized response, but their fellow conversation topics would likely be whatever they might agree on or share in common. This is usually the little things, every-day actions and stuff like that. It's been observed in many conflicts in RL, whenever there is a pause in the conflict and opposing forces manage to meet peacefully. WWI, Korean war and likely others I can't think of atm.
Note though that cases like this involved mostly type 1 enemies; it's hard to do anything other than fight when your facing a type 2 enemy after all.
As for EVE examples, well, Amarr VS Minmatar strike me as mostly type 2 - many Amarr consider the Matari sub-human and godless, while many Matari consider all Amarr to be evil and despicable to the core. In the back-drop for this you find some of the other option, but to get a civil, non-agressive convo going between them you have to find a Minmatar that looks beyond the Empire's policy and religion, and an Amarr who are somewhat tolerant and open-minded regarding his 'godless' opponent.
Gallente VS Caldari is likely a bit more type 1 than 2, if only due to their conflict being younger, not quite to hot, and partially political, partially ideological, partially nationalistic, ass opposed to ENLIGHTEN THE HEATHEN TERRORISTS/FREE THE SLAVES AND KILL THE SLAVERS kind of conflict. But then you have Damar/Kim grade vitrol and such, so again, you will need cool and collected heads who bother with conversing up the enemy.
Keep in mind also that being a capsuleer gives one a rather unique outlook on things, if the toon you play learn anything from the ordeal of becoming one and seeing things from new angles, as well as the old. I imagine a conversation between two capsuleers of opposing nationality in a war would be different than two baseliners doing the same.
Topics could be whatever you do in a civil life. Food, sports, architectural design in various different societies and groups, clothing styles in the same, music, social mores, the fundamental differences the two parties have in all the above-mentioned categories, what they have in common, personal opinions on any of these things.
Finally, minor point; I find it funny how capsuleers find it in themselves - likely mostly due to player desire to see these places - to seek out and join bars and parties and social gatherings of supposed enemies, in the first place. From a realism stand-point, one would assume the moment you show up you get your head blown off, unless you intend to do just that to the attending patrons. Perhaps more likely with type 2 entity. "This guy, part of (insert group) whom I hate due to (insert reason) is having this party with all his friends, family and associated attending. Should likely go visit, introduce my old 557".
Well, again, capsuleers are a bit beside the baseliner standard. The enemy of today might be the friend of the next decade. Though this also holds true for baseliners. It costs nothing to be civil about it...
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See, Lal, if one needs such defensive measures against the sympathies one would build and emotional stuff like that, one is an animal, indeed.
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Actually, there's a lot of scope for alignment of interests on the Fed/State line if one isn't holding to the ideology of a Hawk/Patriot. There's all kinds of potential shenanigans involving all sorts of different political and economic interests and at the end of the day I think there's the patriotic party lines said in public and the backroom dealing as different people in the Federation and State maneuver to protect their agendas. The real difficulty in building dialogue is always going to be trust, and that mutual interest will be enough for those on the other side to keep their mouth shut.
Besides, I don't think the combat training in the State or Fed involves ideological indoctrination with the aim of dehumanizing the enemy but has parallels in the modern methods of operant conditioning and works of Skinner, Milgram and Shalit. The objective is to get soldiers to pull their trigger through instinct, reflex and muscle memory in addition to manipulating how people behave towards authority and seek to rationalize/justify the act of killing through it. Of course it's far easier for a capsuleer to kill other human beings I'd say since dehumanization comes in the act of destroying spaceships and not in ending the lives of others; and desensitization comes from the fact that physical distance allows emotional distance and rationalizing of violence through intellectual means.
I think that's what I've always liked about seeing New Eden as a capsuleer through the lens of a game because sometimes I think a capsuleer can become so divorced from the reality of their acts of violence and destruction that for all intents and purposes it has just about all the emotional investment that comes with, "Push F1. Watch spaceship explode."
After all, it's not like capsuleers see young men and women left bloody, burnt and broken, crying out in pain and suffering when they manage to survive an engagement in hull, right? Maybe they do, I don't know.
Even that could be a topic for capsuleers on both sides of a conflict to talk about because I think the only thing that separates soldiers from each other is the nature of their uniform and not their experiences in having to fight a war.
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I sometimes feel as though I'm RPing wrong. After months and months of being Makkal and playing her for hours at a time, I can't think of a single character she'd consider an enemy. I'm not sure anyone specifically considers her an enemy*. If so, they haven't informed her.
They are the animals then, and you can do anything to them.
This assumes the character would do 'anything' to an animal.
*As opposed to characters who hate all slave-holders, all religious types, or all women with names that begin with M.
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RP-ing against enemies in a nutshell:
*with static in mic*
DIE, REBEL SCUM !
:twisted:
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No one has rebelled against the Kingdom.
I was speaking more towards personal animosity, however. I tend to feel more anger towards that one person who awoxed IRED and blew up my prorator than Makkal feels against any of the characters she interacts with.
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Not everyone necessarily has an enemy/nemesis or just enemies in general in my opinion. Especially characters that tend to get along pretty well with - almost - everyone. Maybe one day you will find someone that despises Makkal. I would even say, that I am pretty sure that some Minmatar radicals or even other kind of people despise her without her knowing just because she is of Khanid origin.
Also, one might think that characters that are always polite, respectful and nice with everyone have no enemies easily, but that's often wrong. Not sure if she has other people that dislike her, but for example Lyn tends to really dislike Scherezad at times for example (while still holding her in good esteem). I mean, I have not seen many characters disliking Scherezad. Of course it's far from being her enemy, just an annoyance at times, but that's my point.
And if you meant in the other way, I do not see why a character being happy with everyone would be such an aberration. My own character used to be like that in the past, and still have a lot of remnants of that in the way she considers people.
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Katrina has a few baddies.
- Seriphyn Inhonores is probably the person she dislikes most thanks to their colorful history, but he's not really an enemy or nemesis by any means.
- Silas Vitalia makes her wary, because she recognizes the woman as incredibly dangerous. Intelligent, cold, manipulative, and definitely working against John. Not quite an enemy though, not yet.
- Veikitamo Gesakaarin is essentially Katrina's political polar opposite. She's more of a rival than anything else though, and Kat would still defend Veik if it ever came to it.
- TOASTERS. Kat hate's em. All of 'em. Mostly because EVE is no fun without someone to irrationally hate. TSF are also cool bros and never give me OOC crap about it too, so they are exactly the kind of people I enjoy playing enemies with.
- I'm sure there are moe, but my coffee isn't working yet. Bleh.
- Oh, one more: Glaze. I'll let you translate that as you will.
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For my rabid, legitimately sociopathic Havohej (note: his Minmatar > All stance is largely a front to get other crazies to follow him into battle against whomever he doesn't like and/or wants to terrorize/rob - which is basically everyone), all e nemies are a bit of both Types from Bloodbird's example.
While he does truly hate slavery and the Amarr/Ammatar/Khanid peoples (including Makkal, whom he's/I've never met :p ), I've had excellent civil IC convos/Evemail exchanges with Grr, Esna and especially Merdaneth. :cube: Merd! And since his methods make it so that everyone hates him including many Minmatar, this has created a state of affairs where nearly any interaction at all is between enemies. Notable exceptions include Aria Jenneth, who may be the only person I wouldn't shoot on sight (I'd warn, first) and maybe Eran Mintor whom Havo secretly respects (but I'm pretty sure he haet Havo). Everyone else outside his own corp is so much meat and ISK in Havo's mind.
The thing for me that makes that possible is the OOC approach that the other person is just an internet spaceships nerd like me; so even if the interaction gets heated, I'm able to easily maintain Havo's cold, methodical detachment while speaking IC to anyone.
I've toyed with the idea of selling Havo and buying a comparable toon with no IC/roleplay history and inventing a whole new persona (maybe a Caldari or some kind of non-supervillain "good guy" in the -EM- sense, but :effort: and I really love the character and how everyone fucking hates him IC, even Minnies. Maybe I should go Sansha instead of Angel if Vince is still on lolHiatus when I'm back ingame instead of ressurecting Du'uma Fiisi.
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I'll make a post as I can make a post again, yay!
There are enemies. And then there are people you hate. Commonality often stops conflict.
*leaves this here* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHrNi_0IB3c
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- Oh, one more: Glaze. I'll let you translate that as you will.
The Horrifying Glaze. He sits solid, frightening Kat's little ship with pendent menace from above. He doesn't move, calmly noticing Kat's futile maneuvers. He shrugs off Kat's missiles even without shields. His shining hull blinds Kat's camera drones, forcing her to tremble before his might and stature. Even her drones are afraid of engaging the Glaze, crowding in confusion around her fragile ship. But Kat didn't come to this encounter unprepared, or she would warp away without hesitation after this terrifying sight. No one can't stand against the Glaze, unless you have The Weapon. The mighty laser turret, carefully attuned to break Glaze's armor, is what Kat has on her ship. But even this weapon is inadequate against this formidable opponent: it will take hours of continuous shooting to bring down this monstrosity. But Kat doesn't fear, she is prepared for this dangerous encounter. What she wasn't prepared for, is that he was not alone.
Dozens of Glaze are surrounding now her tiny ship. They swarm her from all direction, they are everywhere, making her ship look like a tiny dot among these enormous entities. They came after her, and they sit prepared in their special battle formation - the belt formation. The whole friggin belt of White Glaze.
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- Oh, one more: Glaze. I'll let you translate that as you will.
The Horrifying Glaze. He sits solid, frightening Kat's little ship with pendent menace from above. He doesn't move, calmly noticing Kat's futile maneuvers. He shrugs off Kat's missiles even without shields. His shining hull blinds Kat's camera drones, forcing her to tremble before his might and stature. Even her drones are afraid of engaging the Glaze, crowding in confusion around her fragile ship. But Kat didn't come to this encounter unprepared, or she would warp away without hesitation after this terrifying sight. No one can't stand against the Glaze, unless you have The Weapon. The mighty laser turret, carefully attuned to break Glaze's armor, is what Kat has on her ship. But even this weapon is inadequate against this formidable opponent: it will take hours of continuous shooting to bring down this monstrosity. But Kat doesn't fear, she is prepared for this dangerous encounter. What she wasn't prepared for, is that he was not alone.
Dozens of Glaze are surrounding now her tiny ship. They swarm her from all direction, they are everywhere, making her ship look like a tiny dot among these enormous entities. They came after her, and they sit prepared in their special battle formation - the belt formation. The whole friggin belt of White Glaze.
Congratulations, you just made the joke even more horrifying.
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Conversations with those whom we disagree often make for excellent RP.
I think having or finding a legitimate reason to interact is an important determinate.
Plus this type of “high stakes” RP often leads all variety of fun things.
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RP-ing against enemies in a nutshell:
*with static in mic*
DIE, REBEL SCUM !
:twisted:
Well, yes. As I recall that didn't turn out too well for the Imperial officer who is the most famous source for that quote.
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While he does truly hate slavery and the Amarr/Ammatar/Khanid peoples (including Makkal, whom he's/I've never met :p )...
"Someone you've never met hates you intensely because you're a woman whose first name starts with M," is makes a weaksauce enemy.
If that's the best she can do, Makkal has failed the whole making enemies thing.
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Samira doesn't like Makkal, but I guess that doesn't really count as being an enemy. :P
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Samira doesn't like Makkal, but I guess that doesn't really count as being an enemy. :P
Amusingly, the same incident that likely sparked that dislike is what caused Makkal to pin Aldrith down so she could rave about Samira and how she's a great representative for PIE.
Even if we don't fight, I appreciate the dislike.
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"But you're wrong!"
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No U!
Conversations with enemies, if handled properly, can be great RP and a lot of fun. For example: recently Karm had to defend a controvercial decision to an old friend who's now an enemy. It was great for me because I really had to cement my character's beliefs during the hours long arguement.
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While he does truly hate slavery and the Amarr/Ammatar/Khanid peoples (including Makkal, whom he's/I've never met :p )...
"Someone you've never met hates you intensely because you're a woman whose first name starts with M," is makes a weaksauce enemy.
If that's the best she can do, Makkal has failed the whole making enemies thing.
Don't worry, he's like that with everybody. Unless they fascinate him, which is quite rare.
And I'm sure once I'm ingame RPing and yarring actively again, much better reasons will present themselves :D
You seem cool here, though, so if I should ever catch you in a ransomable/extortable predicament, I'll cut you a break... Say, 15% off or somewhere in that neighborhood. Some Backstage members will have to pay double or diaf, so that shows how much I like your posting :yar:
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No U!
Conversations with enemies, if handled properly, can be great RP and a lot of fun. For example: recently Karm had to defend a controvercial decision to an old friend who's now an enemy. It was great for me because I really had to cement my character's beliefs during the hours long arguement.
I only wish that had been as much fun for the both of us. For me, it was basically an hours-long exercise in having Esna's face smashed into a wall repeatedly.
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*goes back to the drug fueled orgies content in the knowledge that when she's blackmailed it will be at a reasonable price*
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RPing with enemies is great. Period! :D
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Roleplaying with enemies is default mode. :P
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*goes back to the drug fueled orgies content with the knowledge that when she's blackmailed it will be at a reasonable price*
Why, Hello!
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RP-ing against enemies in a nutshell:
*with static in mic*
DIE, REBEL SCUM !
:twisted:
Well, yes. As I recall that didn't turn out too well for the Imperial officer who is the most famous source for that quote.
I didnt say it ends good for me :roll: