Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => The Speakeasy: OOG/Off-topic Discussion => Topic started by: orange on 08 Jul 2012, 18:04
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Seriphyn, I do not understand the basis for your views on American diversity.
Take a visit/read up on India and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's not a case of perspective, it's just the fact that India is more diverse than the US. For example, each and every US state speak English, with a penetration of 80%, while Texas (at least Austin where I visited) is bilingual with Spanish. In India, meanwhile, you have the state of Punjab, which speaks Punjabi, Orissa which speaks Oriya, Gujarat that speaks Gujarati, Assam that speaks Assamese, and so on and so forth. Only 40% of Indians speak either the main Hindi or another Hindi dialect.
What you described is not necessarily cultural diversity, but linguistic diversity (which I will agree plays a component in cultural diversity).
80% penetration of English (+dialects) throughout the United States vs 40% penetration of Hindi (+dialects) throughout does not necessarily mean that the US lacks diversity, but rather it has a more standardized and established educational system than India.
Despite someone from Austin, Texas and Boston, Mass both claiming to speak English, it does not mean that one will understand the other (especially when they lay their accents on thick). In Louisiana, French Creole is still spoken. Throughout the west, there are indigenous Nations where they work to preserve parts of their native culture.
Another example is Los Angeles - the primary language is definitely English, quickly followed by Spanish. But then there is also a significant Japanese, Chinese (pretty sure Cantonese), Korean, and Vietnamese presence. Over the air, I get more TV channels in languages I do not understand than languages I do.
Now if we come at it from a genetic background perspective, even someone as white as I am can have what I think a European would consider a diverse heritage. My own line is fairly bland being mostly British Isles and German, but my wife's is more interesting and includes Dutch, Irish, Polish, and Italian.
Then there is the cultural differences between all the various regions and what they tend to value. There are readily apparent cultural differences between the various major US cities and regions. A great example is the cultural impact of the American Civil War. In the southern States, it can be a defining event in history, while northern and western states do not have much knowledge of it.
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As an outsider, it may be the result of media exports. It has a very homogenizing effect to people who live outside the United States. They all show the same tropes, same lifestyles...so forth. So I speak with that bias.
But what I meant was, is that in places like India, even if you speak Hindi, you may be dropped anywhere and have to search around to find people that can also speak Hindi. This is especially true in so-called "Class D" cities. You speak English in the US, however, and you're made. The diversity in the US is more a "melting pot", where everything sort of comes together and pushes the same direction. As you pointed out, the construction of "India" as a nation was imposed by the British. Each group exists independently and do not intend to syncrete together.
Two places that I've spent extended periods of time at are Marin County CA and Austin TX, and I can definitely see noticeable differences between them (Austin folk were definitely more, er...genuine). But not as distinct as some places in India. For example, cities in the US are very samey with identical architecture, because they're all planned grideron stuff.
Compare it to Indian cities, like the blue city of Jodhpur to the skyscrapers of Mumbai. Lots of the cities go back centuries and centuries, thus adding to the extreme diversity further. Nonetheless...there's some key elements that identify it as "Indian", just like how the big wide roads in the US could identify it as "American".
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I can assure you as an American, we're not nearly as unified as homogenized as you seem to believe.
America has primary languages that are spoken, and you will see these languages used as secondary languages on products in their prevailing areas: English (everywhere), Spanish (Southeast and Southwest), French (Northeast), Chinese, Korean and Japenese (West Coast). You will find a very different culture from state to state, different traditions in the north, south, east and west; differing construction styles, different government and business models, etc.
It's not uncommon for an American to travel from one state to another and feel like they're in a completely different country sometimes, especially when you have trouble understanding the locals.
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Eventually, the rest of the states will figure out how to do barbeque right. Slow-cooked, whole hog, pulled pork with a vinegar-based sauce is the ONLY WAY TO DO IT RIGHT. Put it on a sandwich with some cole slaw, hush puppies and french fries for the sides, and a glass of sweet iced tea.
Virginia uses some tomato-based sauce. WTF glorified ketchup!
South Carolina uses a mustard base. WTF wrong!
Florida? You might as well eat the charcoal, it's so black and burnt.
Georgia steals from both and makes mustard-covered charcoal! How could they do that?!
And, don't even let me get started on Kansas and Texas. BEEF? Seriously, beef? With a SWEET sauce?!
The rest of this country is just backwards.
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Interesting! I've lived in many parts of the country (Central Florida, DC metro, Kentucky, Houston, Central Texas, Monterey Bay, Seattle, etc), and I have always been struck by how homogenous our society is -- within a certain range of major ports. The accents change, the landscape change, and traditions change from place to place (see BBQ sauce above), but most of the time I see the same social strata in place and people consuming the same popular cultural fodder. The biggest difference in day to day life and lifestyles is not from region to region but between wealthy upper classes and the poorer working masses.
This is probably a product of the last 60-70 years of national-scale integration of our infrastructure, population mobility after the World Wars and rise of the automobile, and the growth of consumer industries (especially the mass media and advertisement). There are few places I've been in the US within 50 miles of a major airport where I feel like I have genuinely stepped into another world altogether, especially when comparing the differences to those I've experienced in overseas travel. Having said that, when you get off the beaten path, I think some things are still fairly regionalized in the US (religion and politics, certainly). It's a big country after all.
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Beef BBQ > Pork BBQ.
I'm going to suggest that unless someone has spent a significant amount of time in both India and the USA, their opinion as to which is 'the most diverse' is rather questionable.
Yes, America has quite a bit of diversity, but it homogenizes along class lines. That is: white, middle class, college-educated suburbanites are very likely to have similar experiences of America. And that, in general, is what gets passed on as 'typically American,' often with a coastal bias.
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Beef BBQ > Pork BBQ.
*wonders about starting the Great Barbeque War of EVE*
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Eventually, the rest of the states will figure out how to do barbeque right. Slow-cooked, whole hog, pulled pork with a vinegar-based sauce is the ONLY WAY TO DO IT RIGHT. Put it on a sandwich with some cole slaw, hush puppies and french fries for the sides, and a glass of sweet iced tea.
Virginia uses some tomato-based sauce. WTF glorified ketchup!
South Carolina uses a mustard base. WTF wrong!
Florida? You might as well eat the charcoal, it's so black and burnt.
Georgia steals from both and makes mustard-covered charcoal! How could they do that?!
And, don't even let me get started on Kansas and Texas. BEEF? Seriously, beef? With a SWEET sauce?!
The rest of this country is just backwards.
Im so disappointed in this post Kohi.
You know I love you. But this...this is going to far.
Your pig-parts barely BBQ-resembling mash cannot compare to true BBQ. (which is beef of course, and occasionally, occasionally turkey)
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Also, Re: American Diversity.
If you actually want to consider separate cultures and/or languages, in my little state alone, we have Western European, African and African-American, Vietnamese, Mexican, various South and Central American Hispanic, Chinese, Saudi, Indian*, Cherokee, Choctaw, Seminole, Lakoda, Chickasaw, Creek, Sax and Fox, Comanche, Caddo, Wichita, Osage, Shawnee, Kickapoo, an thats off the top of my head. Im sure Im missing some. Thats just one state of 50.
If youre going to include every little Indian ethnicity and language group, you might want to do the same for the U.S. "Them Injuns" isnt a fair way to categorize scores of separate tribes, nations and cultures.
Just sayin.
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@Malcom: Being from the northeast, I don't know if I would call French a secondary language of note. The only times I came across it involved either tourists from Quebec or places that cater to them (and I was directly south of the Quebec border...and a lot of the region an hour or so south of the border is unpopulated woodland and mountains).
I also came (initially) from small towns. They are way more homogenous (and generally "whiter", or very Americanized ethnic) than the cities.
On the other hand, the definition of "ethnic" has shifted in the last 100 years, by which I mean most of the "white" European groups were way more distinct. "Irish" used to be an oppressed minority, a trend that changed seasonally as other countries dominated the waves of immigrants in their turn. Today the distinction between Irish, German, Nordic, Polish, Slav, etc., is a shadow of what it used to be, reflected mainly in regional food, pride parades, and "old boys" sorts of clubs. (And for those of us stuck up north where "barbeque" means chicken, hamburgers and hot dogs, those last two items, that we associate so closely with "American"? German origin.) Such is the melting pot. (And offhand, I do suspect the rise of mass media accelerated the melting.)
On the other hand, it could be argued (but I don't know if its true) that we may be shifting a bit from "melting pot" to "tossed salad"; it remains to be seen whether in another 100 years how much the current batch of ethnic groups will be perceived as "other".
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Your pig-parts barely BBQ-resembling mash cannot compare to true BBQ. (which is beef of course, and occasionally, occasionally turkey)
Why do you rip out my heart like this, Gottii? Why? They're called "pig pickin's" for a reason; you walk up and pull off what you want with your fingers (and burn them so much). If you cook it right, it comes apart just like a proper roast - juicy, tender, and tasty. Mincing it is being considerate for the elderly and people with no teefs. Do you want to be inconsiderate?
Get your Brutor booty on the way right now and come meet me anywhere east of Raleigh. You know you want it.
(http://static.ifood.tv/files/images/making_traditional_North_Carolina_BBQ.jpg)
Turkey is pretty good, so we can still be friends.
And for those of us stuck up north where "barbeque" means chicken, hamburgers and hot dogs [...]
*tuts sadly*
See? There are people who don't even realize barbeque is a noun as well as a verb; at least those crazy Texans who use cows understand that much. Some even think sweet iced tea is made by putting ice in a glass of hot tea. Inconceivable! That's just hot tea with ice and sugar in it. Like I said, backwards. >:(
I'm just glad I didn't mention grits.
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get the couch ready. That is all.
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I agree with the OP. Amsterdam is polylingual to an extreme, but I can't say I'd call it diverse compared to the States.
Also: in the Pacific Northwest, barbecue can indeed be a noun. It's done many different ways, though most of it that we get is sweet.
Probably the best way I can summarize the ethnic mulligan that is the local restaurant scene (and, by extension, local diversity) is to describe one of the most successful food trucks in Seattle. It is called the "Marination Mobile." It offers Mexican-Hawaiian-Korean fusion food, and nothing else. Trust me, if you ever get the chance to try a bulgogi taco, jump at it.
Of course, we also have Ethiopian, Jamaican, Greek, etc....
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Ah, diversity.
In France, everything is centralized and we have none. Trololol. One point less for the gallente = space french analogy.
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Diversity and centralization are two different things. Judging by the news from France over the last few years, diversity there certainly exists, for better or worse.
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Yes there is of course. I was being an ass, mostly. But you will definitly find more diversity in a lot of other countries. The more your country puts on keeping your culture dominant and strong, the more it tends to clash with foreigner influences. This is what I meant by centralization. Everything is centralized, including the national culture, that is very, very rigid.
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Another place in the Pacific Northwest that serves very excellent bbq is called Boogaloos Bar-B-Que which is located on the Bremerton side of the Seattle-Bremerton ferry run. Their pulled pork sandwich are very tasty and their sauce is a thick and spicy one that they make themselves.
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get the couch ready. That is all.
If it's not too nosy, and I don't intend to be, does this mean you intend to enjoy the atmosphere of one of our fine states? (I suggest you avoid the "un-fine states").
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get the couch ready. That is all.
If it's not too nosy, and I don't intend to be, does this mean you intend to enjoy the atmosphere of one of our fine states? (I suggest you avoid the "un-fine states").
If the pig pickin's won't come to me ...
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Barbecue? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMFtiB_Z7qE)
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Barbecue? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMFtiB_Z7qE)
Spicy ketchup? I'm going to faint at the sight of such travesties.
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get the couch ready. That is all.
If it's not too nosy, and I don't intend to be, does this mean you intend to enjoy the atmosphere of one of our fine states? (I suggest you avoid the "un-fine states").
If the pig pickin's won't come to me ...
Awesome. I hope you enjoy your stay. If you happen to be in *ahem* Northern California at any point and need directions/help with anything, PM me and I'll do what I can. This offer is up for any other of you "foreigners" who show up here too, BTW. :)
Personally, however, I advise visiting the east coast. The more northern parts of it. California is a giant tinderbox full of nuts at this time of year.
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*offers Kohiko her axe, her sword and her Cast Iron Skillet of Loving Correction to use on these heathens*
Carolina barbecue is the only proper barbecue.
I say this even though I grew up in the heart of Memphis barbecue country, and did college the first time around smack in the middle between Kansas City and St. Louis barbecue country. I can say this, thanks to American diversity.
A sizable portion of my maternal-maternal and maternal-paternal ancestors emigrated from North Carolina to the Memphis area after the Revolutionary War (my Scottish immigrant great-great-great-some grandfather had a grand old time fighting the British, raised hell until he got a promised veteran's pension and used it to buy a huge farm in Arkansas river country). They brought what was eventually called Carolina-style barbecue with them, retained the traditions, and passed them down, local culinary influences be damned. I'm still racking my brain over why my family puts sliced radishes on tacos, though. I've never seen that anywhere but back home -- or in my own kitchen.
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Sliced radishes on tacos is a common thing in Mexico and here in Texas at the more "authentic" taquerias. We do it at home, too, for very obvious reasons.
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Sliced radishes on tacos is a common thing in Mexico and here in Texas at the more "authentic" taquerias. We do it at home, too, for very obvious reasons.
Huh. I wonder if my great-grandfather and grandfather picked up the habit from the farm workers they used to supervise. Seems reasonable: my blood relatives are about as Mexican as Tabasco sauce.
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I feel strangely compelled to backtrack a bit and defend "chicken barbeque", which is the closest native thing the Northeast has to "real" barbeque. The recipie in my mom's recipie box calls for a seasoned vinegar and oil basting liquid which is applied frequently while the chicken cooks over moderate charcoal. Depending on the cut of chicken (anywhere from drumsticks to whole half chickens) it's a 30 min to an hour processes rather than a many hours long process that pork or beef would go through but done well, the result is still pretty yummy. When the local American Legion or Lions Club or whatnot wants to hold a summer fundraiser, it's often a chicken barbeque, and the meeting halls of such places tend to feature big cinder block and iron grate grills for such purposes.
Course, I live in Arizona now. I can hardly move without bumping into someone who's at least fluent in Spanish, and half the storefronts in my neighborhood are in Spanish. I still think of myself more as a New Yorker than an Arizonan though.
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Geez, for me, BBQ was always just my dad throwing some chicken on the grill that had marinated for 2 days. On the other hand, that chicken was some of the best I've had in my life.