Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Lyn Farel on 05 Apr 2012, 09:01
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Well, maybe some of you have already spotted that wiki article (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery#Mechanisms) (i see some familiar names), but it is quite dense.
A lot of interesting heated points are covered, such as :
- how rogue slavers and Holders are dealt with in the Amarr society
- who can hold slaves (also in correlation with Ni-Kunnis that do not have a lot of Holders outside their homeworld Mishi) : usually Holders, but also a few commoners
- the difference between a Holder and a slaver
- how hard and unfrequent it is to get the right to hold slaves (be it for a slaver or a Holder), and how a matter of prestige it actually is, and how worth of it you have to be to be granted that right
- how outside propaganda about free slavery and mistreatment in the Empire is common is... well, ignorant propaganda.
- how actually most of the enslaved people these days are POWs or criminals (including Holders in extreme cases), and almost nothing else. The rest is composed of old slaves predating the CONCORD formation, though most of them have probably been freed by Jamyl, and also of illegal slaves, which are a minority.
- how Heideran and his successors used to set up continuous crackdowns on illegal slavers, especially on those acting outside imperial space.
- how it is forbidden and enforced by CONCORD treaties to enslave anywhere except on imperial, khanid, and ammatar territory where it is considered to be their own problem.
- how freedom fighters are labelled by CONCORD as terrorists and considered as such. A difference has to be made with the TLF though, which is totally legal, being part of the Militia Emergency Act.
- slave breeding practices confirmed.
- Some numbers : around 75-80% of Amarr slaves are minmatar, and the rest is mostly of their own people. Around 60% of Khanid slaves are minmatar, with a large gallente minority either.
Also, the main differences between slaves in every faction :
- Caldari : totally alien to them, and when they discovered it they considered it as suboptimal for business in practice (a slave does not consume even if his master does for him), and it is forbidden in their space. But they are totally neutral and indifferent on the matter when it comes to other cultures.
- Gallente : abhorred by the whole population, though still blossoming in low sec and isolated areas, with prostitution, etc.
- Khanid : a lot less faith and enlightement involved in the process, they consider slaves as tools and stock. They also lack of slaves so they used to raid a lot the Federation in particular before the CONCORD treaties. Also, very little aggression from freedom fighters, being too far for them.
- Ammatar : most slaves holders were actually of nefantar origin or commoners, amarrians having always turned a blind eye on that breach of protocol. A laissez faire policy aimed to act as a buffer against the Minmatar freedom fighters. But since Ardishapur is back, he brought back a lot of Holders with him and the Mandate is now closer to how it is in the Empire.
The main points I found relevant, but for once it makes the whole thing a lot less speculative and vague.
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One point
People throw around "all slaves are POWs or criminals" as a justification for slavery without actually thinking it through. Certianly rapists, murderes, thieves, etc, would fall in this category.
But they dont actually think about how a theocracy would actually define a POW or a criminal. If the 24th conquoers a new planet filled with Minmatar tribals, guess what, theyre POWs.
As for criminals, I'm sure a lot of the definitions of criminality, if not most, would be driven by religion and doctrine. Claim slavery is abhorrent? Guess what, youre a heretic, and likely a criminal. Deny the right of the Empress to rule? Another crime, to the slave pens for you.
Of course the Amarr only enslave criminals and POWs, in their world view. But that doesnt mean its how we would define POWs or criminals.
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The article quite strongly suggests that Minmatar civilians haven't been defined as anything by Jamyl quite yet. It mentions that the dwindling numbers of professional slavers are hoping that the Empress will open captured Minmatar worlds for slave taking so that they'll be back in a job.
Fewer and fewer nobles have taken up the task in recent years, though the Elder Invasion and resumption of hostilities between the Empire and Republic has given slavers hope that they will soon be turned on the populations of occupied worlds.
However, it seems she has been taking her time on this matter and hasn't declared any decree that would contradict the current CONCORD regulations. Captured Minmatar territory is still Minmatar territory atm. This may change when FW replaces occupancy changes with sovreignty changes, however.
Other really good articles that are related:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ealur_(race) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ealur_(race)) - Ealurians!
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Human_Endurance_Progra (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Human_Endurance_Progra)m - Slave eugenics!
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Island_of_Amarr (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Island_of_Amarr) - Ancient Amarrian history, including the orgins of slavery!
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One point
People throw around "all slaves are POWs or criminals" as a justification for slavery without actually thinking it through. Certianly rapists, murderes, thieves, etc, would fall in this category.
But they dont actually think about how a theocracy would actually define a POW or a criminal. If the 24th conquoers a new planet filled with Minmatar tribals, guess what, theyre POWs.
As for criminals, I'm sure a lot of the definitions of criminality, if not most, would be driven by religion and doctrine. Claim slavery is abhorrent? Guess what, youre a heretic, and likely a criminal. Deny the right of the Empress to rule? Another crime, to the slave pens for you.
Of course the Amarr only enslave criminals and POWs, in their world view. But that doesnt mean its how we would define POWs or criminals.
And on the other hand, that "we" (Minmatar and/or Gallente nationals, anyone who live in a slavery-free society etc.) should care what the Amarr do to their own people is rather unlikely. From the world-view of many if not most Matari slavery is worse than death, and the worst thing you can do to anyone, so would they care that Amarrians are treated worse than death by their own people?
Nearly always when I oversee a slavery/anti-slavery argument on the IGS and other areas the anti-slavery ideas and claims coming from Matari, liberal/traitor Amarr and other people smell somewhat of IRL moral stand-points more than anything else. This don't have to be accurate in any way, but the impression I get is colored thus. Why would a Matari care what their enemy does to their own kind? Most cases they don't care at all, but much like you said, in some situations the "criminals and POW's" are Matari freedom Fighters/Terrorist and Matari nationalist military forces respectively. I imagine this is something they would care quite deeply about.
In the world-view of most if not all Amarr slavery is 100% normal and a standard, integral part of life, so most people who play Amarr who somehow oppose this are required to find conceivable reasons to break with this view. Most Matari who are clearly anti-slavery need to come up with workable arguments for why they are so, and ENFORCE that. It's easy to be Anti-Amarr when you fight them. It's harder to be Anti-slavery and fully accepting and respecting the consequences that comes with that, or play a toon that realize and enforce the difference between those two.
Not entirely sure where I was going with this, but I think I've made my point. Slavery is an integral part of the Amarrian Empire's culture, so to most of them breaking with this idea requires good reasoning. Slavery is not a huge pet-peeve for the Matari, Matari being enslaved, is. The difference between being anti-Amarr and anti-slavery is important.
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You are right.
You will NEVER convince many people of this.
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Slavery is not a huge pet-peeve for the Matari, Matari being enslaved, is. The difference between being anti-Amarr and anti-slavery is important.
I tend to agree with this, and mostly play it this way IC, but for some reason (possibly rhetorical point scoring) I've seen a few amarians claiming that Matari who only care about the Matari being enslaved are somehow being hypocritical.
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ealur_(race) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ealur_(race)) - Ealurians!
That article always makes me so sad.
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ealur_(race) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ealur_(race)) - Ealurians!
That article always makes me so sad.
Yup, the prime example of slavery gone wrong. Meanwhile the Ni-Kunni are an example of the exact opposite.
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You are right.
This. Gottii goes from a slave child background, and was a slave as a child, so has some IC reasons to dislike the institution of slavery. But I do wish more people on the Matari side would play it as more pro-Matari as opposed to abolitionists.
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It is a little frustrating that the Pirate factions use of slaves is not expounded upon more.
Imagine if you will a group of Matari terrorist/freedom fighters and anti-Amarr who ally themselves with Cartel pirates to fight the eb!l slavers. Wait what? You allied with criminals who also have slaves to fight the Amarr?
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Just chiming in to say that your strange IGS-based experience and expectations do not match my experience of Matari roleplay, which includes strong strands of "don't much care if Amarrians are enslaving each other, so long as they leave our people alone", and "no, the Cartel are not cool, edgy entrepreneurs: they're people-traffickers and kin-betrayers".
Those who bemoan the lack of certain viewpoints seem to be, well, mixing in the wrong circles.
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Just chiming in to say that your strange IGS-based experience and expectations do not match my experience of Matari roleplay, which includes strong strands of "don't much care if Amarrians are enslaving each other, so long as they leave our people alone", and "no, the Cartel are not cool, edgy entrepreneurs: they're people-traffickers and kin-betrayers"..
Umm, I know I'm not really a very diverse demographic compared with Matariki, but
This. Very much this.
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One point
People throw around "all slaves are POWs or criminals" as a justification for slavery without actually thinking it through. Certianly rapists, murderes, thieves, etc, would fall in this category.
But they dont actually think about how a theocracy would actually define a POW or a criminal. If the 24th conquoers a new planet filled with Minmatar tribals, guess what, theyre POWs.
As for criminals, I'm sure a lot of the definitions of criminality, if not most, would be driven by religion and doctrine. Claim slavery is abhorrent? Guess what, youre a heretic, and likely a criminal. Deny the right of the Empress to rule? Another crime, to the slave pens for you.
Of course the Amarr only enslave criminals and POWs, in their world view. But that doesnt mean its how we would define POWs or criminals.
Never said the contrary...
Also, I may be wrong, without any offense, but your post sounds half IC.
What I find interesting as I said, are all the new infos we have on things that were mostly vague and suggested before. Things like Matari claiming that Heideran's decree was bullshit and nobody actually did anything to punish rogue slavers, which is apparently quite the contrary. I do not blame them because they did this (and it also remains logical ICly), but I am glad that CCP finally added true historical precisions on this in PF so that its not anymore a case of "they did this" "oh ? prove it" "no you", or more precisely people arguing over biased speculations.
Then as you pointed out, every character still has enough liberty to interpret all these historical facts in his own biased way, be it minmatar, amarr, whatever.
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What I find interesting as I said, are all the new infos we have on things that were mostly vague and suggested before. Things like Matari claiming that Heideran's decree was bullshit and nobody actually did anything to punish rogue slavers, which is apparently quite the contrary. I do not blame them because they did this (and it also remains logical ICly), but I am glad that CCP finally added true historical precisions on this in PF so that its not anymore a case of "they did this" "oh ? prove it" "no you", or more precisely people arguing over biased speculations.
I'm a bit puzzled about your intention here: could you please clarify it?
Whatever the official line about punishments, Matari who accept certain missions against the Amarrians (and, from memory, the Caldari) know that there's slaving in the Republic because they've fought the ships doing it. It's apparently not meant to happen, but it does happen.
(I'm wracking my memory to think whether it would be possible to interpret it as "your agent was misinforming you", but, without going back over mission items and drops and such, I think it's pretty much unequivocal.)
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It's an interesting read.
A semi-regular debate I have with Morlag is the nature of the Khanid Kingdom among all this - not least that people mostly ignore it or lump it in with the Empire in all the anti-slave rhetoric, when the Kingdom is a far more cynical and relentless practician of slavery.
Perhaps as a result, I've always envisioned the Kingdom as appearing to be a welcoming, reasonable entity, the Caldari influence making them seem like fair businesspeople instead of a monolithic religious entity like their neighbours; until you poke a stick around and take a good look beneath the surface, and realise that it's probably combined the worst aspects of both its neighbours. They just keep really quiet about it.
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Regarding the slaver fighting missions in the Republic & Fed.
The usual pattern in these is you fight past some Caldari raiders to get to Imperial ships guarding a slave compound (one assumes a transit point before they are sent back to the Empire). I've always assumed that what is happening here is Caldari are acting as mercenaries and doing the actual slave taking. The Imperials concerned can then claim that they haven't actually broken any laws. They are just taking these people into custody from others that can't look after them properly.
The ships concerned tend to drop navy tags. In one instance a Khanid Royal Navy ship is encountered, but usually it's mainstream State & Empire units.
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Yeah I remember this mission, I have done it several times in the past. What was funny is that its about navy state and imperial ships. Which make both empire look like hypocrites (where you can find the exact same thing for the 2 other factions in their opposite factions space).
What I find interesting as I said, are all the new infos we have on things that were mostly vague and suggested before. Things like Matari claiming that Heideran's decree was bullshit and nobody actually did anything to punish rogue slavers, which is apparently quite the contrary. I do not blame them because they did this (and it also remains logical ICly), but I am glad that CCP finally added true historical precisions on this in PF so that its not anymore a case of "they did this" "oh ? prove it" "no you", or more precisely people arguing over biased speculations.
I'm a bit puzzled about your intention here: could you please clarify it?
Whatever the official line about punishments, Matari who accept certain missions against the Amarrians (and, from memory, the Caldari) know that there's slaving in the Republic because they've fought the ships doing it. It's apparently not meant to happen, but it does happen.
(I'm wracking my memory to think whether it would be possible to interpret it as "your agent was misinforming you", but, without going back over mission items and drops and such, I think it's pretty much unequivocal.)
I am not denying any of these missions - even if we know how they are to be taken with a whole pinch of salt, cf the recent discussion on this here. I was just pointing out that in several IC debates around this particular point (rogue slavers operating outside of the Empire), Amarrian loyalists ICly denied the fact while Matari loyalists ICly answered that it actually happens, branding these missions as proof. Then Amarrian loyalists ICly answered that the Republic should take care better of how they watch the criminals operating in their territory, and Matari loyalists to answer that said criminals are not taken care of either in the Empire and that the Empire does nothing about it and actually condones it (hence the navy ships). Then it evolved in the usual name calling and speculation about what Heideran really did or not with the decree and how he was a hypocrite or not... etc etc.
My point is that until now, all of this was mere speculation based on vague facts on the only basis they happen in a few Minmatar missions. Now, we have more ground and matter to discuss about it, thus I find all these infos very welcome.
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I really do not like the dog-tag mechanic.
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I think the Amarr/Caldari ones offered by Gallente and Minmatar agents that Arnulf is referring to are a set of four mission strings, one for each level. They're definitely connected to each other; almost an early version of an epic arc of sorts. A good chunk of the L3 string is actually about getting around the fleet that's present in the last room of the L2 string:
Level 1: In the Shadow of War (http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=InTheShadowOfWar1) (5 parts)
Level 2: Human Cattle (http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=HumanCattle2) (5 parts)
Level 3: Portal to War (http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=PortaltoWar3) (5 parts)
Level 4: In the Midst of Deadspace (http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=IntheMidstofDeadspace4p1) (5 parts)
I never spent lots of time missioning for the Amarr or Caldari so I've not found their corresponding series of missions.
Also, I remember this (http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=GreaterGood1) one particular mission string offered to me when I was doing L1s for Fed Navy back when I was but a wee noob. For those who haven't taken it, you're basically asked by one of the Republic's allies to attack a Minmatar relief convoy and frame the Amarrians for it.
This was one of the things that initially pushed Morwen away from empire political bullshit, and part of why she thinks most of the highsec entities are sick and in need of a firm beating.
EDIT: made things a little clearer
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Perhaps as a result, I've always envisioned the Kingdom as appearing to be a welcoming, reasonable entity, the Caldari influence making them seem like fair businesspeople instead of a monolithic religious entity like their neighbours; until you poke a stick around and take a good look beneath the surface, and realise that it's probably combined the worst aspects of both its neighbours. They just keep really quiet about it.
I can see it being an EVE equivalent of Illium. "Slavery? What slavery? It's indentured servitude! They have contracts!"
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Also, I remember this (http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=GreaterGood1) one particular mission string offered to me when I was doing L1s for Fed Navy back when I was but a wee noob. For those who haven't taken it, you're basically asked by one of the Republic's allies to attack a Minmatar relief convoy and frame the Amarrians for it.
And shoot down CONCORD while doing so. And blow up a colony. Always struck me as odd as why there was a slave colony in Federation space (one could argue that the agent was just calling a colony of expat Minmatar a slave colony).
One of my male alts managed to get offered nothing but this mission one day, despite moving between multiple L1 Federation agents. I reasoned that ICly, he'd be freaked out ("Roden, Chemal Tech, FedMart, TSS ... aaagh! They're all in on it, and I'm being set up to be their fall guy!") and flee, so he did.
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Perhaps as a result, I've always envisioned the Kingdom as appearing to be a welcoming, reasonable entity, the Caldari influence making them seem like fair businesspeople instead of a monolithic religious entity like their neighbours; until you poke a stick around and take a good look beneath the surface, and realise that it's probably combined the worst aspects of both its neighbours. They just keep really quiet about it.
I can see it being an EVE equivalent of Illium. "Slavery? What slavery? It's indentured servitude! They have contracts!"
...wow. I never thought of that.
I like it. Illium, just without the whole psuedo-Coruscant thing.
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I think the Amarr/Caldari ones offered by Gallente and Minmatar agents that Arnulf is referring to are a set of four mission strings, one for each level. They're definitely connected to each other; almost an early version of an epic arc of sorts. A good chunk of the L3 string is actually about getting around the fleet that's present in the last room of the L2 string:
Level 1: In the Shadow of War (http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=InTheShadowOfWar1) (5 parts)
Level 2: Human Cattle (http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=HumanCattle2) (5 parts)
Level 3: Portal to War (http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=PortaltoWar3) (5 parts)
Level 4: In the Midst of Deadspace (http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=IntheMidstofDeadspace4p1) (5 parts)
I never spent lots of time missioning for the Amarr or Caldari so I've not found their corresponding series of missions.
Also, I remember this (http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=GreaterGood1) one particular mission string offered to me when I was doing L1s for Fed Navy back when I was but a wee noob. For those who haven't taken it, you're basically asked by one of the Republic's allies to attack a Minmatar relief convoy and frame the Amarrians for it.
This was one of the things that initially pushed Morwen away from empire political bullshit, and part of why she thinks most of the highsec entities are sick and in need of a firm beating.
EDIT: made things a little clearer
Amarr/Caldari side you have Enemies Abound for example. You start by being asked to go shoot at an illegal gallente settlement that is actually a part of a gallente incursion in amarr space leading to a Roden shipyard... The last part reveals to whom they give the ships they produce : minmatar freedom fighters and the likes accessing the territory through a hidden stargate.
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You get the freedom fighter invasion in deepest caldari space, too. :/
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Well yes as all these missions do not depend on the location they are given in, but by who they are given. I usually get anti Caldari/Amarr missions given by a SOE agent in Caldari space... Which is totally fucked up. @_@
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RL morality being imposed in RP? of course!
Democracy is a lie, religion is evil. Only hip tribalism or pure meritocracy is the way.
Except all factions have gaping holes. We all OOC rally against dictatorships IRL, but need to remember that 80% of the EVE universe is authoritarian.
I loved the slavery article. very illuminating. No matter what though, as already pointed out, it will still be seen as teh bad.
If EVE had alien races instead, i think our perspectives and approaches would be different
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RL morality being imposed in RP? of course!
Democracy is a lie, religion is evil. Only hip tribalism or pure meritocracy is the way.
Except all factions have gaping holes. We all OOC rally against dictatorships IRL, but need to remember that 80% of the EVE universe is authoritarian.
I loved the slavery article. very illuminating. No matter what though, as already pointed out, it will still be seen as teh bad.
If EVE had alien races instead, i think our perspectives and approaches would be different
Yes, we would. I for instance, would likely un-sub in disgust. I *love* the no-alien approach to EVE and the intra-Human conflicts. Makes things considerably more complex, for one.
As for the IRL-biased viewpoints of players affecting their toon's decisions and ideals, fuck em. Best way to counter anyone who does the average, obvious my-toon-is-clearly-myself routine can be molested verbally and beaten down until their so-called opinions and ideas are laughable punctured and dis-credited, or alternatively they can simply be ignored and frozen out of any interaction. Or anything in between, really.
"I think democracy is a lie and the Fed is weak and helpless, I'mma go defect to whatever and make your lives horrible cause that's more cool and hip. God help you all if you want reasoned, logical arguments from me concerning my ideas though, that's not happening, lol. Also this is clearly a view-point I've suddenly developed out of the blue and is in no way influenced by the claims of the voice in my head."
^Sure it is, obviously.
Not the best example, but it gets my point across. Those who clearly act based solely on IC reasoning as opposed to any action or belief that is likely to have stemmed from the game itself... well, there are ways those tendencies can be dealt with.
BTW I don't rail against dictatorships IRL. I rail against ineffective, oppressive wannabe-governments who could not do their jobs well if their lives depended on it. That's another topic, though...
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RL morality being imposed in RP? of course!
Democracy is a lie, religion is evil. Only hip tribalism or pure meritocracy is the way.
Except all factions have gaping holes. We all OOC rally against dictatorships IRL, but need to remember that 80% of the EVE universe is authoritarian.
I loved the slavery article. very illuminating. No matter what though, as already pointed out, it will still be seen as teh bad.
If EVE had alien races instead, i think our perspectives and approaches would be different
BTW I don't rail against dictatorships IRL. I rail against ineffective, oppressive wannabe-governments who could not do their jobs well if their lives depended on it. That's another topic, though...
Nice^^ Why I think, I found a soul brother....
You are okay, if I go in future with a hypster "bro", when we chat? :P
Yes, we would. I for instance, would likely un-sub in disgust. I *love* the no-alien approach to EVE and the intra-Human conflicts. Makes things considerably more complex, for one.
I like the no-alien approch too.... I like it in many books or series (Legend of the Galactic Heroes etc)..... I also think, that a sci-fi-fantasy universe with aliens is harder to make.