Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 15 Jan 2012, 09:24
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About as likely as a Minmatar/Caldari alliance, but something I thought about...what is FW was a bit less arbitrarily 2v2 and something like...
Gallente Federation with the Minmatar Republic against the Amarr Empire. Caldari State remains neutral, may or may not supply multiple sides in the conflict.
IMO, Gallente v Amarr is the true New Eden "world war", since those two are actually empires by the technical definition, while the Republic and State aren't really. Current Amarr v Minmatar is a bit imbalanced, because in terms of how the PF styles them, the Minmatar have no hopes in defeating the Amarr on their own, and the Amarr could technically curbstomp the Republic, but then the Federation would be around to stop them (alas, under the current system, they can't do that)
It also gives the Caldari some character (again IMO) as being on the neutral. Especially considering their space (before Black Rise) was mostly highsec, they're sort of the bastion of security and commerce on the sidelines (especially that their space lacks any decent PvPer groups).
Thoughts?
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If you want to discuss an alternative story, that is cool, but current player capability should not drive the big story arc. Your last parenthesis does this and is a bit of a troll.
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Troll unintended, but primarily being highsec space does infer more of a "stability" vibe than a warfighting one.
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I think to add some real dynamism they should open up new fronts on -every- main empire. Easiest way to do this would be to open up 'pirate' or 'lesser' faction fronts along several borders.
Mordu's Legion, Guristas, Blood Raiders, etc. Smaller groups like Intaki and Khanid Kingdom.
Dissolve the current power blocs, and have at it.
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I think to add some real dynamism they should open up new fronts on -every- main empire. Easiest way to do this would be to open up 'pirate' or 'lesser' faction fronts along several borders.
Mordu's Legion, Guristas, Blood Raiders, etc. Smaller groups like Intaki and Khanid Kingdom.
Dissolve the current power blocs, and have at it.
I would adore Khanid/Ammatar/Intaki/Mordu militias. +1 to that idea :)
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Adding new factions would require a total rethink of FW, which at its heart is a capsuleer proxy war mediated by CONCORD. Participants are recognized CONCORD member states, who submit to rules limiting warfare to pre-determined areas in order to avoid the destructiveness of all-out war. The idea that the pirate factions, for instance, would submit to CONCORD's rules and fight only on a pre-ordained strip of systems is laughable. There is also issues of sovereignty, in that CONCORD doesn't recognize the Intaki as a state separate from the Federation, or Mordu's Legion as anything but a well-organized mercenary group.
So, here's that rethink.
Step One: End the Empyrean war. The capsuleer militias have been at it for years, with no conclusive result.
Wild swings in the Caldari's favor after an initial year were completely reversed in the second, and the front lines have settled into a Gallente occupation of much of Black Rise. However, the Caldari Titan still looms in Luminaire, and the six month occupation of Placid has left a lasting scar in Federation politics, highlighting divisions between the Gallente core and the disenfranchised Intaki. The Intaki council has already turned to Ishukone and Mordu's Legion for security, forging an independent route regardless of the outcome of CONCORD's proxy war.
Tibus Heth's rule looks less stable with the economic crash caused by the loss of the Placid systems and all the investments he urged his supporters to make in occupied Federation space. Further loss of many of the Black Rise colony systems, once touted as the future of the Caldari State, will give his challengers a chance to undermine him and push the State back into a less centralized balance between the major corporations. The one clear gain Tibus Heth can point to is the reclamation of the homeworld, a tentative victory assured only by the guns of an orbiting Titan.
On the Minmatar and Amarr front, fighting has been concentrated in the same handful of systems, resulting in much destruction and loss of life for relatively little gain. A recent Minmatar push into Huola has been reversed and the Amarr hold a tenuous advantage with several Minmatar systems under control. Some systems have exchanged hands several times in recent weeks, often leaving planetary invasions stranded without orbital support. Troops and generals from both the Republic and Empire have grown tired of their fate dictated by the capricious nature of podder warfare.
The Empress (in between orgies) seizes on the opportunity to solidify her power. She can lay claim to having vanquished an Elder fleet with God's intervention, then rallying her people and holding the borders against an unprecedented assault on Amarrian space. The stalemate is trumped up as a victory, an Empire holding strong against heathen hordes backed by Gallente financiers. To an extent, the Empress hand is forced - spreading rumors of her cloning, debauchery, and errant personal behavior is forcing her attention towards domestic threats. Rival Houses shocked into compliance by her sudden rise and the advent of war are regaining their feet and reassessing the situation. Imperial politics return to cloak and dagger, sectarian conflicts, and the rivalries between centuries-old families. The Khanid take the opportunity of the Empress' vulnerability to strengthen their autonomy, forging economic ties with their Caldari allies.
The Republic has its own hands full, with the influx of freed slaves from its brief advances into Amarrian space, the political ramifications of the Starkmanir rediscovery, the revelation that the Elders exist, and the prospective incorporation of the Thukker. Still a new and fragile state, the Republic has been particularly drained by warfare and agrees to a tentative cease-fire without submitting to a permanent peace treaty. The border between Republic and Empire remains heavily fortified, with live fire incidents being not at all uncommon. The multiple crisis' of the Republic's short existence has renewed many of the tribes' reservations about the Gallente-influenced government, and the Minmatar turn inwards. Its score with the Amarr left unsettled, the Republic refocuses on shaping its own identity.
Step Two: Everyone gets a militia!
Despite the bitter fruits of the Empyrean War, the military benefits of a capsuleer militia have become indisputable. Repeatedly, capsuleers have swatted away conventional forces lead by baseliners, fulfilling military objectives effortlessly whenever there has been an absence of enemy capsuleers. Many organizations, large and small, start to directly employ capsuleers for their security and defense. Quite a number have been doing this already with limited contract work and agent missions. These factions start opening their ranks further, employing capsuleers on a semi-permanent basis to patrol their borders, maintain their claims, and secure their operations.
The Guristas start directly employing capsuleers to expand their raids into State space as well as defend their established territory from rival pirate groups moving into their business.
Angel Cartel continues to its operations in Curse, employing capsuleers with the lure of its unique technology. Having already shown a history of conquest with the destruction of Feythabolis, the Cartel is unrepentant about expanding its power base.
The Blood Raiders, driven by their hatred of Jamyl Sarum, start drawing in capsuleers as tools for their agenda. The already eccentric nature of many podders, known for their corpse collections and willfull disdain of the lives they take, offers the Sani Sabik a receptive audience for their blood rites.
The Serpentis Corporation faces continued attacks by Federation law enforcement authorities, seeking to crack down on destabilizing and illegal drugs. In addition, they find a rivalry with the Syndicate, the Intaki expatriate organization that dabbles in many of the same illegal markets as Serpentis does. They turn to capsuleers to protect their territory.
<Add blurbs for Sansha's Nation, Khanid Kingdom, Ammatar Mandate, Mordu's Legion, the Syndicate, and all the other 'small' factions of this bloody huge universe>
Step Three: All low-sec and NPC nullsec becomes a potential battlefield for faction battles, with dynamic politics between the factions.
<Insert sweeping generalizations of the complex mechanics and nuanced rules needed to make this work>
???
Profit!
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About as likely as a Minmatar/Caldari alliance, but something I thought about...what is FW was a bit less arbitrarily 2v2 and something like...
Gallente Federation with the Minmatar Republic against the Amarr Empire. Caldari State remains neutral, may or may not supply multiple sides in the conflict.
IMO, Gallente v Amarr is the true New Eden "world war", since those two are actually empires by the technical definition, while the Republic and State aren't really. Current Amarr v Minmatar is a bit imbalanced, because in terms of how the PF styles them, the Minmatar have no hopes in defeating the Amarr on their own, and the Amarr could technically curbstomp the Republic, but then the Federation would be around to stop them (alas, under the current system, they can't do that)
It also gives the Caldari some character (again IMO) as being on the neutral. Especially considering their space (before Black Rise) was mostly highsec, they're sort of the bastion of security and commerce on the sidelines (especially that their space lacks any decent PvPer groups).
Thoughts?
I'd consider Gallente vs. Caldari to be the "cold war" of EVE, considering the Federation is willing to work with the Guristas to try to get an upper hand in that conflict. Gallente vs. Amarr, I really don't see as a "world war." The Empire is busy fighting a nation they fundamentally disagree with, and the Matari have a much greater animosity towards the Empire than the Gallente ever could.
Also, two nations versus one presents a pretty obvious problem in numbers, so, why would we want that.
The troll comment didn't help your case.
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Shaalira, I wish you worked at CCP.
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The line between mechanic and storyline is heavily blurred here, but I think it's safe to say that all the 4 major empires' tacticians have long since concluded that this war will not be won in a single, overwhelming thrust (in part due to the complete inability for traditional navy forces to interdict capsuleer resources). Instead, it is to be a war of grinding attrition, likely with more focus on any significant PR gains that can be extracted from planetary occupation than a "decisive blow" in a naval battle.
This in turn also means that there will be significant focus on internal power structures that can be either reinforced to aid in the rate of replacement of lost vessels. In the Empire, for instance, the Empress might start awarding higher titles to major houses that are able to produce large numbers of ships or other significant contributions to the war effort, encouraging competition among houses to produce the most they can. The Minmatar, by contrast, might want to try to sabotage relations between the houses, threatening increasing disruptions by the ever-squabbling Holder houses.
Personally, I feel that the Khanid would continue to strengthen their ties with the Empire, as this renewed relationship has already benefited them. The State, meanwhile, is having to deal with significant internal strife and is already recieving aid from the Empire.
Speaking of the State, I seem to remember hearing a story that either the Federation or the State was outstripping ther other in raw ship production terms - I think the figure was 8 days to produce a Dreadnought, a few days less than the other party - and this was greatly concerning the party who couldn't produce as quickly. Unfortunately, this was told by word-of-mouth, and I can't remember which was Gallente and which was Caldari.
Regardless of either, I must admit that this kind of bugs me, as it displays a disregard for the ability of capsuleers to utterly crush a traditional navy offensive, even one with capitals leading the fight - to be clear, it isn't that I don't think that overwhelming numbers could fend off a capsuleer counterstrike. Rather, it's that after being played up as the immortal Gods-of-destruction that can make or break the faction wars and drew the singular attention of Sansha's Nation, it feels like we're going told that we're critical... except we aren't.
The Matari front is even more confusing for me. It'd seem to me that the Matari would be heavily favoring hit-and-run strikes, maybe even using nano-alphafleets (as field-proven by capsuleers) against the slower but heavier Amarrian fleets. The Amarr, meanwhile, would be engaging in a singular drive to push as far as far into Heimatar as they could, while only making tentative counterstrikes against the Matari raiders, having learned long ago that chasing such raiders is futile but either taking the fixed locations they are trying to defend or forcing the smaller Matari fleet into a head-on engagement would be crippling. However, this doesn't seem to be the case - putting aside the notion that an enormous fleet battle with supercapitals and all occured in Amamake without any of us noticing, we've little information to suggest a concerted drive by either party.
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I'd consider Gallente vs. Caldari to be the "cold war" of EVE, considering the Federation is willing to work with the Guristas to try to get an upper hand in that conflict. Gallente vs. Amarr, I really don't see as a "world war." The Empire is busy fighting a nation they fundamentally disagree with, and the Matari have a much greater animosity towards the Empire than the Gallente ever could.
Also, two nations versus one presents a pretty obvious problem in numbers, so, why would we want that.
The troll comment didn't help your case.
I already mentioned that such a "troll comment" was not intended, instead postering from the platform that the Caldari FW group are mostly mission-runners and have always been inferior PvP-wise against the Gallente in the long-term. Though, as Dex pointed out, that's PLAYER dynamics/demographics dictating mechanics, but I still think the Caldari would be nicely suited as the unscrupulous arms dealers on the sides.
Regarding your other points, no. The Amarr Navy is "twice the size of the next two navies put together", so it wouldn't even be an equal fight 2v1. Meanwhile, the Minmatar hate the Amarr, but so do the Gallente with their detestement of slavery. After all, the Amarr Empire stopped expanding primarily because of the threat the Gallente Federation poised. In total war mode, the Gallente would pose a very, very serious threat to the Amarr Empire.
The thing with the Caldari is reconciable from the Gallente point-of-view. However, the Gallente do not consider Amarr slavery reconciliable. Once again, the Caldari State is not an "empire" in the technical sense. It does not seek world domination.
However, the Gallente and Amarr do, in their own ways. One via soft power, the other via hard. Also this (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=10-03-06) very clearly indicates how the Gallente consider the Amarr the true threat to the universe, and NOT the Caldari.
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Troll unintended, but primarily being highsec space does infer more of a "stability" vibe than a warfighting one.
That was not my point of contention and I agree that the megacorporations in general prefer stability and as many trading partners as possible.
(especially that their space lacks any decent PvPer groups)
Is what I think needs to be left out of any discussion of what could be from a story perspective.
Once again, the Caldari State is not an "empire" in the technical sense. It does not seek world domination.
From some perspectives, the Caldari economic empire has achieved "world domination" - if you accept station position & numbers as an indicator. I do not think it would be to far of a stretch to say, for example, that the CBT is the preferred arbitrator between New Eden's megacorps. Between the Empire & Federation, the Caldari corporations provide technical know-how to bring products to market through "national partners."
I think in a "dynamic" setting, having the Caldari be neutral is fine, but then the conflict should focus on the fate of the Minmatar/Ammatar. Create two sides - freedom vs faith Minmatar vs Ammatar. The Amarr clearly through their weight behind the Ammatar and the Federation behind the Minmatar - but it makes it a war between the Federation and Empire via proxies.
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I'd consider Gallente vs. Caldari to be the "cold war" of EVE, considering the Federation is willing to work with the Guristas to try to get an upper hand in that conflict. Gallente vs. Amarr, I really don't see as a "world war." The Empire is busy fighting a nation they fundamentally disagree with, and the Matari have a much greater animosity towards the Empire than the Gallente ever could.
Also, two nations versus one presents a pretty obvious problem in numbers, so, why would we want that.
The troll comment didn't help your case.
I already mentioned that such a "troll comment" was not intended, instead postering from the platform that the Caldari FW group are mostly mission-runners and have always been inferior PvP-wise against the Gallente in the long-term. Though, as Dex pointed out, that's PLAYER dynamics/demographics dictating mechanics, but I still think the Caldari would be nicely suited as the unscrupulous arms dealers on the sides.
Regarding your other points, no. The Amarr Navy is "twice the size of the next two navies put together", so it wouldn't even be an equal fight 2v1. Meanwhile, the Minmatar hate the Amarr, but so do the Gallente with their detestement of slavery. After all, the Amarr Empire stopped expanding primarily because of the threat the Gallente Federation poised. In total war mode, the Gallente would pose a very, very serious threat to the Amarr Empire.
The thing with the Caldari is reconciable from the Gallente point-of-view. However, the Gallente do not consider Amarr slavery reconciliable. Once again, the Caldari State is not an "empire" in the technical sense. It does not seek world domination.
However, the Gallente and Amarr do, in their own ways. One via soft power, the other via hard. Also this (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=10-03-06) very clearly indicates how the Gallente consider the Amarr the true threat to the universe, and NOT the Caldari.
Okay, just for clarification - are we talking about fluff here or actual player base?
I could see the Empire being double the size of other groups in the lore, but, do we have an actual count of the players involved? And how would we keep track of something like that for alternative FW?
I'm not saying slavery isn't detestable to the Gallente, but the idea of them just "reconciling" with the Caldari, I just can't take seriously. Hundreds of years of bad blood, what would it take for the animosity to come to an end? If the Federation just stopped intercepting them, the State would take back every system they considered to be theirs, so unless the Federation would be okay with that... looks like they still have to shoot at some State pilots.
Tactically speaking, the Federation also wouldn't be foolish enough to start a two-front war. That leaves, what, diplomacy? In which case the State would probably ask for their systems back, etc. etc. and we're stuck in a year-long administrative debate that goes nowhere.
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Okay, just for clarification - are we talking about fluff here or actual player base?
I could see the Empire being double the size of other groups in the lore, but, do we have an actual count of the players involved? And how would we keep track of something like that for alternative FW?
I assumed we're talking about fluff - and yes, once you have joined a militia, the militia office window gives you counts of (among many other things) pilots in your militia. As an addendum to that, Amarr has been (for as long as I've known, even before I joined militia) the smallest militia in terms of raw pilots. Of course, this may be more reflective of fewer mission runners than other militias due to NPC imbalances than actual participatory numbers in fleet actions and plexing, but I can't be sure - hence why I don't like to use numbers or KB stats in fluff discussions; it gets messy fast.
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The PF train already went way, way off the rails for the FW launch anyway, so it is indeed a difficult discussion.
I think having the 4 empires lumped into two broad camps for FW launch was already a mistake *shrug*
I think a 'reset' would be a fantastic idea though.
Shake up the political stalemate, have the PF permanently change the sov of many of the border systems one way or the other, and open up new fronts along new sections of border. Change high to low sec status if need be.
Having this endless grind for years with nothing to show just kills any sort of RP dynamism. I don't care what they decide but some movement would go a long way.
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re: Caldari and world domination; sure they have a lot of corporate influence, but that doesn't translate to sociocultural influence that Gallente megacorps do. It's like how the Japanese/Chinese make a lot of our stuff, but we're not exactly all wearing Japanese/Chinese clothing. The Federation is built to accept and incorporate new peoples, and they wouldn't mind making everyone Gallente (or "free" in their dictionary). The Amarr, too, seek to make everyone Amarrian. Meanwhile, if the Caldari try to make everyone Caldari, they lose their identity, as they're all culturally grounded to one world (Caldari Prime, to the point they'll kill and die for it).
I suppose it's more the point that the nature of the current conflict feels a bit...imbalanced? The Gallente fighting a much smaller state while only off-handedly being at war with the true threat to 'galactic peace' (Amarr) doesn't feel like it has much gravity. What happens if the Caldari wins? Well, the Gallente acknowledge Caldari Prime is theirs, and they go back to the status quo. The Gallente public also wouldn't tolerate a 'subjugation' of the Caldari because "that's not very nice and we don't/shouldn't do that", so happens when they win? Same thing with Minmatar v Amarr.
In which case, it's more an advocating of a much larger war scenario. If the Amarr win this theoritical war, they enslave everyone. If the Gallente/Minmatar side does, billions get liberated and everyone is happy and joyful over this. That's just a personal preference, in which case, of having a "high stakes" war. The Amarr/Minmatar side might appear high stakes if the Amarr win, but in truth, the Gallente wouldn't allow the Minmatar to be conquered (and neither would CONCORD).
From CCP's developer perspective, it's all about having a "war" while preserving the status quo of the game, which I think is the issue of it. In which case it's more like a border conflict. Depends which of the two you like.
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re: Caldari and world domination; sure they have a lot of corporate influence, but that doesn't translate to sociocultural influence that Gallente megacorps do. It's like how the Japanese/Chinese make a lot of our stuff, but we're not exactly all wearing Japanese/Chinese clothing. The Federation is built to accept and incorporate new peoples, and they wouldn't mind making everyone Gallente (or "free" in their dictionary). The Amarr, too, seek to make everyone Amarrian. Meanwhile, if the Caldari try to make everyone Caldari, they lose their identity, as they're all culturally grounded to one world (Caldari Prime, to the point they'll kill and die for it).
I suppose it's more the point that the nature of the current conflict feels a bit...imbalanced? The Gallente fighting a much smaller state while only off-handedly being at war with the true threat to 'galactic peace' (Amarr) doesn't feel like it has much gravity. What happens if the Caldari wins? Well, the Gallente acknowledge Caldari Prime is theirs, and they go back to the status quo. The Gallente public also wouldn't tolerate a 'subjugation' of the Caldari because "that's not very nice and we don't/shouldn't do that", so happens when they win? Same thing with Minmatar v Amarr.
In which case, it's more an advocating of a much larger war scenario. If the Amarr win this theoritical war, they enslave everyone. If the Gallente/Minmatar side does, billions get liberated and everyone is happy and joyful over this. That's just a personal preference, in which case, of having a "high stakes" war. The Amarr/Minmatar side might appear high stakes if the Amarr win, but in truth, the Gallente wouldn't allow the Minmatar to be conquered (and neither would CONCORD).
From CCP's developer perspective, it's all about having a "war" while preserving the status quo of the game, which I think is the issue of it. In which case it's more like a border conflict. Depends which of the two you like.
I think you're still vastly overestimating the importance of Gallente popular conception. Just because the prospect of slavery is a negative influence in their eyes doesn't mean the average citizen would give a damn about solving the problem, nor does it mean a government would put effort into reversing it. I could bring up a dozen real-world parallels, but I won't.
The State doesn't want domination, I think you're correct there. But they could still consider plenty of planets and systems "theirs," and want them back fully. Demilitarizing Intaki and leaving it under State control would be one, Caldari Prime is obviously another. Grudges don't go away easily, it would basically require a tremendous effort to put an end to those hostilities, and an even greater effort to keep them from surfacing again. Just because the State is small doesn't make it less of a power in the cluster, in fact, it's what drove its navy to become the most potent in New Eden.
What I do agree with is that a switch-up would be refreshing. Perhaps Gallente vs. Amarr, and Caldari vs. Matari? Trading off opponents for various strategic reasons, encourage new rivalries in the FW scene?
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I like Shalira idea, but how do you justify that Khanid strenghten their autonomy while the last years have proved exactly the opposite ? Now Khanid II is once again part of the privy council (even as advisor only). That would require some sort of important event to backpedal like this.
Now then, I do think that one can find casus belli between all the factions, whatever you may think of. It is not really hard, they all have their grudges against the other ones. Yes, even the Gallente vs the Minmatar. Like the Amarr / Caldari, they do not share a lot of things (unlike what people always tend to think). Not that a free for all would be a good solution though, but the whole thing gets more granular and offers more possibilities. Especially when you start to add new minor factions in the equation, like for example the Ammatar Mandate, which can be a key actor where with it alone, you might be able to put at war 3 of the 4 empires : the Amarr vs the Republic because its obvious, but also the Caldari vs the Minmatar for business opportunities (as stated in the chronicles).
Besides this, I think like Senn that people tend to overestimate the implication and patriotism of the average dude, whatever faction he is living in. Sure you will always find activists here and there, but seriously, why even the usual Minmatar worker would care about his so called "brothers" that have been enslaved for centuries, that he has never seen in his life, and with whom he does not even share something (except blood ?). Because of a national feeling ? Propaganda ? Sure. Like IRL when the media start to talk about Islam or China all the day, saying "booooo". But does that make the average citizen willing to go to war with them ? Not really. They do not care. People usually care about themselves first, thats human, and after, they extend that to their families, whatever their culture is. But the people actually "going activist" are minorities compared to the "masses". I am no fool, it is quite obvious for me that why factions, even in Eve, are fighting each other, is for pure political agendas, even the Amarr and the Minmatar. Not for the ideological sugarcoat. Not anymore at least.
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When computer engineers write political/IR fiction.
Folk wouldn't tolerate a psychologist writing about quantum theory regarding starship propulsion or whatever...(see, even I butchered that)...getting a decent soft scientist to write about soft subjects in EVE might help a lot.
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First off by assuming people don't care about nationalism is imposing a very modern/western outlook on the eve universe. Nationalism through various means has been an extremely potent issue since the idea of the nation state as more than just a political and geographic entity first began to emerge in the 18th century. You only have to look at the European Union as it stands to see how easily nationalist feeling trumps the greater good.
Overall I like the idea of minor factions pitching in, I was once a member of a minor faction after all. In terms of PF its reasonable to suppose that with the rise of the Sansha threat Concord rescinds the Militia act introduced after the Empyrean war. This would lead to most of the factions covertly supporting their relevant militias through a proxy system which is closer in many ways to the conflict we're already having
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If there's a series of Pirate factions, can has CONCORD faction to go against them?
Lawful neutral needs love too. But in general I believe facwar needs a reset, but then again the entire story needs an update.
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???
Profit!
me likes!