Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Bacchanalian on 09 Dec 2011, 01:26
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This one's probably gonna last about 24h. Or something.
But seriously, it makes me wonder. How can one justify to themselves putting up an IC façade of a badass with a bio talking about how you're wanted by CONCORD and considered extremely dangerous for your extensive history killing capsuleers etc when you've got less than 30 killmails to your name?
I can't really wrap my head around it. I guess it goes back to my history with SF's put up or shut up culture from when I was with them in my first days of arpee, but I'd feel kinda dirty OOC if my IC character was walking around talking about how much of a meanie I am when I've barely fired my guns in anger before.
This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" post so much as it is a "I don't get it and want more insight into it" post with a hint of "you're doing it wrong" because I'm sometimes a smug fuck and can't help that creeping into my posts. But in all seriousness, on one of my arpee alts that has literally like 2 killmails to his/her name (sekrit alt is sekrit), I don't claim to be the Red Baron. I claim to aspire to be the Red Baron and recognize that I need to spend a lot of time flying with better pilots so I can learn how to be the Red Baron. v0v
I guess there is a side to it of "talk the talk and people assume you walk the walk", but there's also the fact that those who walk the walk don't need to talk the talk because it's well known they walk the walk. If that doesn't make too many heads spin. I mean, you're not making a wrong assumption when you assume that Verone has a lot of kills under his belt. He does. And he doesn't need to write it in his bio for people to know it. Ditto Jade. Ditto Gorion Wassenar (I feel dirty even saying that, but he's got twice as many kills logged on BC as Jade, which kinda makes my head spin when I think back to Mito).
I dunno. Maybe it falls into the same category as writing up epic battlereports of running a level 2 mission or arpeeing in IC channels about the heroic fight you're having against the level 1 serpentis invasion of [highsec system of choice]. And end of the day people can arpee what they want to arpee. I guess I just wonder why more people who arpee being a badass pilot don't get out there more and actually make shit explode more. v0v
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First, the type of behavior you're talking about is not just native to Eve RP. I'm also a member of a Star Trek RP group that grew out of a play-by-email sort of format.
The group is very clear in their handbook (yes they have an 80-page handbook) that you either start out as an enlisted crewman or as an ensign. Yet, when people fill out their bios, they create these backstories that have their characters having decades of experience serving as everything from Chief Engineer of Commanding Officer. And then you look at their rank and their an Ensign.
When I was a dungeon master in my pen and paper days, I used to give players a XP bonus to come up with a detailed character background. I found that taking the time to tell the characters life story to date helped the players form a more concrete idea of who the character is and what their motivations were. Even then, I got a few backgrounds that made me go, "Okay, if all this happened to him, why would he be a first level thief?"
tl;dr: People sometimes get carried away with the story when they are creating a character, even if it flies in the face of logic or game mechanics.
Alternatively, it might be that the bio is an IC lie meant as a bluffing bit of bravado. I've been in enough bars to have seen men exaggerate all manner of their experiences in an attempt to impress anyone within earshot.
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Differences in roleplay culture, I think. And, given the demographic of many newly-licensed podder characters, a certain amount of try-hard bad-assery is probably in keeping (and will get eyerolls from the rest of us).
What happens in space really happens. Killing Serpentis is still mass murder. The approach that "killing other pod-pilots is the true test of skill" is almost the elitest "gamer" side of in-character podder life, which is also highly in keeping with the world and the demographic.
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Well, the "I'm a princess" thing is in no way strictly limited to EVE. Another silly thing is this long-running fad on having citizenships revoked. Having rights revoked, sure, but I'd assume that being a citizen isn't just all right, but also some duties - which can be used to mess up with the said citizen, I'm quite sure - especially in the EVE setting. You don't want to be responsible of what the said citizen does? Declared fugitive, then (which is even implemented ingame - with negative standings, specifically lower than -5).
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Alternatively, it might be that the bio is an IC lie meant as a bluffing bit of bravado. I've been in enough bars to have seen men exaggerate all manner of their experiences in an attempt to impress anyone within earshot.
I suppose there's something to this and it's kinda what I wondered. Is it perhaps intentional?
What happens in space really happens. Killing Serpentis is still mass murder. The approach that "killing other pod-pilots is the true test of skill" is almost the elitest "gamer" side of in-character podder life, which is also highly in keeping with the world and the demographic.
But surely slaughtering 7 serpentis frigates in your Drake is less, uh...intimidating than killing another pod pilot's Drake in your Drake? I dunno. And CONCORD don't seem to mind when you kill rats in my experience anyway. I get sec boosts and a paycheck whenever I do it. :)
You don't want to be responsible of what the said citizen does? Declared fugitive, then (which is even implemented ingame - with negative standings, specifically lower than -5).
This is kinda in game, as you say. Low faction standings, low sec status, factional warfare etc. There could be boosts/adjustments to it (including allowing a player to tick a box or something declaring themselves hostile to certain entities--WoW originally had this feature, though it was never used and eventually taken out, but for a while you could tick an "at war" box next to a standings bar and it'd automatically make you KoS to them).
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But surely slaughtering 7 serpentis frigates in your Drake is less, uh...intimidating than killing another pod pilot's Drake in your Drake? I dunno.
I could argue "intimidating to whom": pod pilots bounce back. :)
And CONCORD don't seem to mind when you kill rats in my experience anyway. I get sec boosts and a paycheck whenever I do it. :)
Which you've done a lot more than I have, as we've previously discovered.
But surely you're not letting CONCORD determine your morality...
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You don't want to be responsible of what the said citizen does? Declared fugitive, then (which is even implemented ingame - with negative standings, specifically lower than -5).
This is kinda in game, as you say. Low faction standings, low sec status, factional warfare etc. There could be boosts/adjustments to it (including allowing a player to tick a box or something declaring themselves hostile to certain entities--WoW originally had this feature, though it was never used and eventually taken out, but for a while you could tick an "at war" box next to a standings bar and it'd automatically make you KoS to them).
Faction Warfare? Admitted, the implementation isn't quite as flexible as that, but they let in practically everyone. (Pirates will already KOS anyone, so only the Empire factions are to be considered - admittedly, this does miss the Ammatar and the Khanid.)
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People RP the way they want tbh. If they are bad ass for killing NPC's let them.
ICly its my job to kill capsuleer's or NPC pirates I use both in my RP, I do not see a big problem with it. OOCly I could see how people would laugh at them with the crazy big ego's people have.
/John goes full "retard"
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I'd be curious to see someone actually admitting to this and explaining why they did it. :o
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ICly its my job to kill capsuleer's or NPC pirates I use both in my RP, I do not see a big problem with it. OOCly I could see how people would laugh at them with the crazy big ego's people have.
You kill people. I have no problem wrapping my head around your RP. v0v I've both shot you and been shot by you, in fact. I think you were final blow on my ill-fated Vulture back in Provi in fact. :D
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I'd be curious to see someone actually admitting to this and explaining why they did it. :o
I did this pre mito, and I think part of it is the game itself if you run a lot of missions as it makes you feel like a badass when you warp into a mission and kill tons of mooks. I was defending the state day in and out, killing pirates and slavers.
Sure I learned a bit fighting the rogues, but since they were small and we could swarm/push them off the field even if taking losses, i still felt like hey we ares winning space battles.
Then mito grad happened and I learned, and decided if I was going to rp a badass it wouldn't be through piloting skills.
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I am pretty bad-ass because I have been playing EVE for nine years, not done (much) Pew Pew against other players and have not gotten bored yet! :D
Truthfully; it is not that easy to build up a character identity around non-violent activities in New Eden and still have engaging game play. :|
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It is reasonable to say you are a badass to non-capsuleers. But I think its fair if you want to project the same attitude to other capsuleers, then the regular hoo-ha won't cut it. you might be an awesome footballer to kids, but you may not be to the grown professionals
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Well, it's easy. Call them out on it, ICly, ask for a duel if it bothers you so much. Also, since this is RP, you could for example be a god in a capsule and a weakling out of it - or vice versa.
Apart from that even the greenest capsuleer is pretty badass, compared to Johnny Baseliner. You can take on impressive odds right from the beginning, and while the Raven pilot might smile over the rookie in his destroyer, the one taking on other capsuleers on a daily basis will smile over the mission runner or incursion pilot. Let's spin the wheel of eliticism \o/.
Also, Jade, great post. In every possible meaning of that word. :lol:
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I don't like it.
for several reasons, including:
saying character X is wanted for Y crimes in Z systems etc, to me, feels a bit like dictating to others, how competent the planetary entities are.
e.g. if someone claims to have escaped from things n times, then it makes Planet Z's police look like the Keystone Cops.
the Jita 4-4 chronicle, mentions how station police pretty much can kill any capsuleer they find outside the capsuleer section of the station, without any justification needed, because capsuleers = trouble more or less.
stating that character X can evade all this sort of thing time and time again, just seems silly to me.
"I landed on Pator, sneaked into Shakor's house and rearranged his furniture, so he'll trip over it" for example. If you were to accept that statement, then you agree that the Republic authorities, Shakor's security, and Shakor himself are by and large, buffoons. If you reject that statement, then it's far too easy to be accused of accusing people of "doingitwrong".
Of course, there is no obligation for a character to believe any other character.
If someone says they are a master of the Jin-Mei martial art of Dimac, the Iron Fist, the Invincible Way, and so on and so forth, then that is a thing that people have to agree to. It is not something that can be done unplanned or unconsensually. There is no way to make someone believe a character is a Dimac master if they don't want to.
There are a few things that are not ship-to-ship based where a character can do things.
If someone says they are an elite infiltrator, who has a huge network of contacts and agents across new eden, then no-one is under any obligation to believe them. That sort of thing can be acted upon though, however if the characters actions extend only to petty corp theft and hiring highsec-based mercenaries against 0.0 based individuals, then that is a bit daft.
it is depressing.
There are ways to become recognised for inspace things that do not necessarily include kill/lossmails, and then a character becomes "Hey, it's (name)!" and people know who they are and so on.
overall, vOv. People can do what they like, as long as they realise that others don't have to believe them, and may call them out.
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What Jade said!
Does the list of Lukka (http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=lukka&page=1#kills)'s kills (#1 on Battleclinic) really impress you? I had to go to page 6 to find him killing much more than Frigates, Industrials, & T1 Cruisers in his Faction or T3 Cruiser.
By the measure of the all might killboard, this guy is king!
I have effectively no killboard stats for the past few years other than losses to local pirates. But that is not my measure of success. Granted, I also do not claim to be billy-bad-ass when it comes to combat.
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I don't believe that looking at pure KB stats on its own is useful. As with any statistics it helps to look at the context of the numbers to decide if someone really would be 'dangerous' if you ran into them on your own. I'm much more likely to consider someone like (shameless plug) Namamai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEPRVKdljxQ&feature=player_embedded) to be wary of rather than the random sovbloc guy with lots of kills under his belt. Of course I'm definitely biased towards people who solo, since it tends to be a stronger predictor of actual skill than fleet fights. Doesn't help that fight summaries aren't perfect at conveying exactly what happened, like fleet fights that turn into ganks because one side bails and other problems (logiblobs not being on KMs, etc).
I tend to say this a lot in other contexts, but the killboard is just a tool, use it for what it is good for (tracking activity, fits, and efficiencies) and realize like anything it has its limitations and drawbacks.
I was going to make some elaborate point about using KBs as an initial reference then doing additional research (recon, talking to pilots, and such) of your own to see if the numbers are backed up by skill...but seems that train of thought has dissapeared.
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I dunno, I'm not terribly impressed with characters that have lots of kills and post lots on killboards. It's just masturbatory, and quite frankly, dull. Good, you have lots of experience in combat, now where have you succeeded other than making a cloning company lots of money? That's ultimately what my thought process comes down to; In-character, is a person actually achieving anything or are they just blowing up ships to look cool? What do you stand for? What are your goals and what are you killing for?
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Frankly, Tarunik's ISK efficiency is the most meaningless killboard stat of all (it's a ridiculous 98-odd% due to the LE supercap kills he's been on). I value much more the :goodfights: that someone can get (their war stories, in other words) than their raw stats. Sadly, stats-worship has led to people who simply won't give you :goodfights: any longer, and just blue-ball and/or uber-blob (anything more than say 3:1 to 5:1 numbers, given fairly evenly matched fleet comps) you.
I think the main answer to that would be to rework kill statistics (ISK efficiency in particular) so that blobbing wouldn't be so productive in that regard. Sadly, the last time this was tried (by Agony Unleashed, no less), they were forced to make their killboard private due to unceasing howls of "URDOINITWRONG".
As a side note: what would be a good place to discuss a revamped ISK efficiency calculation?
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I think three important points in this arguement are:
1, scalability of actions. Actions scaled to small levels, for example "I robbed a candy store!" don't impress anyone. Actions scaled to large levels, for example "I personally overthrew the Holder of this planet and now run things" just end up running into the issue discussed here. The middle, however, tends to be good - i.e., you are performing actions large enough to provide bites for others to interact with, but not yet reaching the level where you are claiming, without evidence, to wield large amounts of authority and/or threat.
For instance, I RP'ed Esna as a Holder long before I had any major participation in FW - but, I deliberately never indicated what or where Esna is a Holder of, as I didn't want to be claiming to be the grand poobah of whatever - just a small-scale, newer Holder. IMO (and feel free to disagree, I won't be insulted) this was a good middle ground, as it allowed Esna options in RP to interact with others without claiming authority or influence over a planet or solid assets I don't really have.
2, scale of effect.
Point 1 dealt with how big your supposed action was. This deal with how many people - that is, players - it effects.
The lower limit here is less important - though if it only effects yourself, I don't see the point - but if you claim some action that only has direct pertinance to a single person, you are in much more safe territory than if you claim something that heavily effects a corp of ten, and claim is much safer than something that effects an alliance of one hundred, etc etc..
"But what about personal effects?" you ask. "Does have a small circle of effect allow you to do anything? I think not!"
Of course it doesn't. The reason a small sphere of effect is better is because it's far easier to touch base with all people involved and make sure they're alright with it. Affecting only one person is not an excuse for, to use an actual example I saw, rolling a 'toon pretending to be their ridiculous family member.
3, NPCs and Players in space.
First, I will voice my intense displeasure at the current state of NPC-vs-PC combat in EVE. To my knowledge, NPCs (barring Incursion/Sleeper/officer rats) have not been updated with increased damage/tank/tactics for several years, and in that interim T2 equipment has become omnipresent, faction hulls and equipment far more common, and the commonly-used combat hulls even larger. What this resulted in is a case of "NPC kill inflation". While several years ago cruiser rats were hazardous and BS rats a Big Deal, the numbers killed now make them nothing more than standard mooks while PF is still trying to tell us that 0.0 ratters and L4 mission runners are killing hundreds or thousands of people per rat, maybe tens or hundreds of thousands permission/anomaly.
So yes, anything larger than a cruiser NPC kill is a Big Deal according to PF, but not according to mechanics... and yes, it's a very :s situation IMO.
EDIT: KMwhoring, bugged KB ISK values, and other things make Killboard useless as IC measures beyond actually proving you were present and involved in a specific kill.
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Guides and Mechanics probably.
As a side note: what would be a good place to discuss a revamped ISK efficiency calculation?
Don't have time to reply to the other comments, but I do think that KBs are definitely more useful from a "record for war stories" perspective. I know I like to re-link old KMs that were from goodfights~.
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3, NPCs and Players in space.
First, I will voice my intense displeasure at the current state of NPC-vs-PC combat in EVE. To my knowledge, NPCs (barring Incursion/Sleeper/officer rats) have not been updated with increased damage/tank/tactics for several years, and in that interim T2 equipment has become omnipresent, faction hulls and equipment far more common, and the commonly-used combat hulls even larger. What this resulted in is a case of "NPC kill inflation". While several years ago cruiser rats were hazardous and BS rats a Big Deal, the numbers killed now make them nothing more than standard mooks while PF is still trying to tell us that 0.0 ratters and L4 mission runners are killing hundreds or thousands of people per rat, maybe tens or hundreds of thousands permission/anomaly.
So yes, anything larger than a cruiser NPC kill is a Big Deal according to PF, but not according to mechanics... and yes, it's a very :s situation IMO.
Indeed, although part of the problem I think was (is?) the "gank/tank, press F1 to win" PvE mentality that has led folks to not think about how to leverage small ships in traditional PvE nearly as much as they should have been. (Obviously, going up against Sleeper or Incursion Sansha battleships is a whole another can of worms.)
EDIT: KMwhoring, bugged KB ISK values, and other things make Killboard useless as IC measures beyond actually proving you were present and involved in a specific kill.
Agreed. Faulty KB ISK values are a particular pet peeve of mine.
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I am pretty bad-ass because I have been playing EVE for nine years, not done (much) Pew Pew against other players and have not gotten bored yet! :D
Well played. :D
And Jade, I agree, killboards are a very poor yardstick. But some of their metrics are rather undenyable. Odds are good the guy with 3,000 kills has more experience and ability by default than the guy with 30. Surely at some point the guy with 3,000 kills got some of them in a smaller gang environment or solo. But perhaps not. That said, battleclinic rankings to some degree measure this. I know from looking at mine (I fly very little solo, and lately I don't get much <10 man gang action in) that people with 1/4 my number of kills are well above me due to the fact that their kills are solo or them upengaging substantially. But kb metrics and the pitfalls of them are another discussion for another thread. Ultimately even the 0.0 numpty with 4023943 killmails whored in blob warfare can claim to have been in heavy, scary combat more often than the guy who has killed 4 shuttles and 2 rifters in his thrasher.
I don't believe that looking at pure KB stats on its own is useful. As with any statistics it helps to look at the context of the numbers to decide if someone really would be 'dangerous' if you ran into them on your own. I'm much more likely to consider someone like (shameless plug) Namamai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEPRVKdljxQ&feature=player_embedded) to be wary of rather than the random sovbloc guy with lots of kills under his belt. Of course I'm definitely biased towards people who solo, since it tends to be a stronger predictor of actual skill than fleet fights.
It's a fair bias. The example you chose, Namamai, is fucking badass and can kill damned near anything in damned near anything. His combat covops video is a testament to that. And it also points out the pitfalls of killboards. He's ranked below me on Battleclinic despite having 3/4 as many kills as I do, but I wouldn't dare take him on in a 1v1 and expect to come away with a win unless I went in with the upper hand from the start (which, to be fair, is usually the key factor in winning your typical non-arranged 1v1).
And tarunik, your point on gank/tank F1 to win in PvE is valid, but it also extends, as Jade noted, to a lot of the 0.0 blob warfare. It's very similar in that sense, with the only difference really being that you can actually die quite a bit in the blob scenario. Besides that though, fights are generally determined by numbers and firepower rather than skill at those levels.
Anyway, happy this turned into a productive discussion and there are some good insights into it.
Incidentally, as far as approaching people like this IC and calling them out--for one, it's not something Bacch would do. For another, my sense is that most of them would simply ignore it and ignore you. v0v
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And tarunik, your point on gank/tank F1 to win in PvE is valid, but it also extends, as Jade noted, to a lot of the 0.0 blob warfare. It's very similar in that sense, with the only difference really being that you can actually die quite a bit in the blob scenario. Besides that though, fights are generally determined by numbers and firepower rather than skill at those levels.
Agreed, for all those :nullbears: out there. I honestly think more 0.0 alliances need to run regular small-to-medium-gang roams (10-20 people would be reasonable whether you wanted to do frig or AF wolfpax, AHAC or skirmHAC gang work, BCs, or cloaky roams) in neutral/hostile space, 'twould do a lot more for them when it comes to keeping their swords sharp, so to speak. In fact, I bet -A-'s roams are part of the reason they've been able to survive being bashed over the head with :giantblobs: the way they have been through their history.
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the Jita 4-4 chronicle, mentions how station police pretty much can kill any capsuleer they find outside the capsuleer section of the station, without any justification needed, because capsuleers = trouble more or less.
Tangent: I've said it before, but I'll reiterate that I'm not sure we can extrapolate the behavior of Jita 4-4 to every other station in Eve.
On Topic: I don't know. I mean, I've always rp'd Simon as being a terrible soldier who prefers to avoid pod vs. pod conflicts. But I did get into some channel rp (not with Simon) with an acquaintance (who has since left the game) and it involved getting into a fight and podded. And at the end I was like 'if we wanted to get into a fight, why didn't we go get into a fight?'
I think people sometimes feel they need kills to be taken seriously, but don't know how/have the ability to get them, and don't want to not be taken seriously.
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I was once working a totally legit business deal ICly with a well known minmatar character who started threatening Hamish if he didn't meet his side of the deal, giving him a "wickedly evil smile revealing sharpened canines." etc.
It was hard not to laugh in her face when everyone sitting on my side of the table was at least a five year old toon and had gotten more kills that week than her entire corp had gotten during it's life time.
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Bacchanalian is correct. Good post Jade.
This subject comes up from time to time, but I think it's worth it to occasionally revisit, as every new generation of RPers has their share of this behavior.
It's been my number one guiding principal for all RP activity, or IC Amarrian hubris for my entire time in EVE. Back it up, or be prepared to back it up, or STFU. Actions have consequences, you can and should be called out on any and all blowing smoke IC.
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Kill/death ratios totally correlate with actual pilot intelligence. Etc.
PS. No I didn't actually read this thread.
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I am pretty bad-ass because I have been playing EVE for nine years, not done (much) Pew Pew against other players and have not gotten bored yet! :D
Truthfully; it is not that easy to build up a character identity around non-violent activities in New Eden and still have engaging game play. :|
Well played indeed. EVE-RP needs less fighter jocks and wanna be action heroes, and more human beings and well rounded characters.
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Sometimes I RP Chuck Norris in real life.
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I wanted to add that I do think all flavor of characters are completely valid and worth pursuing. i think the miners and space-truckers and scientists and builders are just as interesting as the shooty-types. I think this thread in particular though is about wannabe shooters not backing it up.
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You don't hear miners bragging to each other who has mined or not mined the most ore. There may be some arguments over who is more skilled or whatever, but I've yet to see a miner post in his/her bio what a bad-ass quota-fullfilling little drone they are. That one is usualyl reserved for the warriors arguing who's dicks are bigger.
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You don't hear miners bragging to each other who has mined or not mined the most ore. There may be some arguments over who is more skilled or whatever, but I've yet to see a miner post in his/her bio what a bad-ass quota-fullfilling little drone they are. That one is usualyl reserved for the warriors arguing who's dicks are bigger.
Lies!
We've had discussions in alliance chat about which comrade has the most efficient mining yield!
(also which free captain is best at sec recovery, mission farming, trading, etc etc)
Newflash , gamers can get competitive about anything :)
If I ran a mining corp I'd definitely make propaganda posts about how incredible we were at sucking crok.
Actually thinking about it our corporate point of pride in 2003-2004 was how impressive we were at trade-runs and moving plutonium from venal to khanid in cargo expanded lif burner bestowers you know ... pretty sure we did a fair bit of boasting on that score.
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To me, his whole thread seems to be about not liking people who get attention for things that you do not get attention for, or others getting 'undeserved' attention.
Well its always been the way of Eve that you don't get acknowledged for anything unless you have a good publicist.
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Or in my case, are your own publicist.
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So, to clarify, my previous post was entirely about people who are talking about non-game-mechanic claims, i.e., claims that cannot be verified or reproduced within the mechanics of EVE.
If you claim to be an ace pilot or a master tactician or something, well then yes, please be prepared to back it the hell up with some pew.
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[mod]Moved several posts to the catacombs. I'll be adding notes to them there, and the authors can feel free to repost within guidelines (sans the bits that are out of the guidelines, naturally). In general, please keep in mind that on Backstage, it isn't kosher to make broad assumptions about other people's motivations (particularly negative assumptions) and flame bait and off-topic posts are to be avoided (for example, using as your examples how such and such old enemy screwed up, compared to your much better way) as that is very nearly the definition of flamebait and will tend to derail things - particularly when you know that those same old enemies also frequent the board.I do apologize for the time it took to clean the thread, but things have been busy lately.[/mod]
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NB: sliced out most specific mentions of Kimotoro Directive strategy and critique of NBSI engagement philosophy
It’s a difficult kind of topic to address really without slipping into inadvertent evocation of the monocultural all holy church of the killboard. I mean, its ironic really that I’m seen as one of the patron saints of “back it up in space” and that leads to talk of all badassary that doesn’t involve killboard stats being pretty bogus. To a point its true of course. You get a big talking IGS pirate tough guy going on about how he’s wanted in two dozen systems etc and the genuine hard asses will rightly roll their eyes and shrug maybe. But there is a danger in adopting a single measure (pvp killboard totals) to this stuff because like everything in eve killboard stats are (small e) exploitable.
I’m sure you and I have both come across big-alliance pilots whose exposure to the noble arts of space combat consists of clicking F1-F8 when the fc tells him too and has 10010101010 touch participations on enemy ships in fleet ops. Bravo tbh, but should we be frightened of or respectful of that guy when he arrives in lowsec on his own or posts up on IGS everyone should bow down and worship him because the stats show he’s 1000x more effective in combat than anyone else in the thread?
I don’t think so obviously, but then I am an individualist anarchist so don’t take my word as gospel.
I do also take the point people raise that shooting thousands of npcs does make them pretty bad-ass in RP terms from their own perspective. Maybe the way to look at it is the difference between regular soldiers (fighting nationalist wars) and mercs and assassins (working for pay) or criminals (working for bank). I guess mercenaries and professional assassins in the real world probably look down on the skill set of squaddies in some way since they would invest the best in their kit and practise their murdering skills to extreme. Perhaps that’s a way to look at it in Eve? Maybe.
My perspective of the Mito campaign is that we took on a self-described Nationalist powerhouse to show them that Caldari state authority didn’t mean anything in the capsuleer world and that the planetside imperialists had better stay there.
But hey, on general bad-assery. I’ve never really tried to trade on Jade’s combat stats. Partly for the reason its apples and oranges trying to compare an NRDS pilot with strict rules of engagement with NBSI pilots who shoot anything. As Jade I’ve shot “enough” valid targets so nobody is going to get anywhere with the suggestion she doesn’t know spaceship combat – and most know enough to be wary about getting into fights with her (pirates in particular hate the fact that Jade prowling means there are cyno’s traps, bait, and sudden death in the ether more often than not – even when it is *just a drake*)
But if we got into a cock-measuring contest on who has killed the most capsuleer ships on the IGS most tin-pot NBSI pirates will be more impressive on raw numbers because killing for them is industrial process often without much more passion than the lev4 mission-runners grinding 1000x gurrista battleships a day.
So what I consider bad-assery from Jade’s perspective is ideological integrity and sticking to one’s beliefs and honouring the cause. It’s about having principles and things one cares enough to fight for. Not surrendering principles because they are difficult – not sliding to a nauseatingly common morass of humdrum banal status quo. Daring to be different and stand up for a principle you will commit your passion to.
Other people see it differently, there are those that look at the fact that 99.9% of the nullsec server is NBSI nihilist / napfest is a slap in the face for anyone believing in NRDS principles and by definition we’ve “lost the game” because nobody has been persuaded. I guess there is a special virtue in conformity that brings esteem in those quarters *shrugs*.
Whereas I tend to see the 0.1% who do have the courage to be different are the heroes of Eve, the genuine “bad-asses” who don’t need the backup of 1000s of player mooks in Nullsec alliances and are prepared to stand tall on their ideals and principles and don’t turn their coats the moment things get difficult.
Whats the difference between Hero’s and Bad-asses?
You kinda care what happens to a hero’s narrative whereas mass produced bad-asses are common as tin-pot tyrants and unflattering haircuts.
Still, there is a grain of a point here with the op post. People should try to do in space what they claim they stand for in their bio’s and IGS posts. But on the other hand, people should be more respectful of the attempt to do something than they currently are.
Trying and failing is usually far more impressive than lowering your sights and following the herd to ensure you’ll never fail at anything.
Perhaps ask yourself next time you mock somebody on the IGS (or other forum) for a failfit or embarrassing fiasco or failed event or hilarious reversal. What is the motive for the desparagement you cast? Are you really comfortable with attacking the motivation to try these things? Do you want an Eve where everyone is too frightened by potential humiliation and mockery to try something new?
Or should we applaud those who dare to take risks and end up flat on their faces most of the time because one day those are the guys we'll be telling stories about when Eve online has othewise passed into legend and memory.
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Late to the party, as usual, but I felt like speaking up because my Evelopedia profile does have a section on "crimes". When I wrote it, I pulled up a list of crimes, and went and matches those on RP at that time. Most of them are in-space happenings, or from station-side storylines. I'm not a criminal or law expert -- where's Aria when he could lend his expertise -- though, so I might have misjudged some.
As for why CONCORD knows about it? There was no effort done to hide it, as it happened in a lowsec station. I approached it the same as sec status, they know but they can't / won't come to help, it's merely recorded. I imagine that my character goes through several fake identities and what not to get around stationside, where as in space I assume that game mechanics apply. If we ever get solid backstory info on this, I'm happy to retcon on it.
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Loving how when PvPers are proud of their skill, non-PvPers say stuff like "seeing who's dick is bigger".
Seriously.
Neither Ava, nor I, have a dick.
Anyway, killboards are a terrible way to gauge "skill" much of the time. You can determine 1) does this person solo a lot and 2) perhaps, what are they likely to be flying? A good k/d ratio solo is sometimes an indicator of skill, but, as stated above... see Lukka.
Ava is a combat pilot, and I rp her as such, fighting for the TLF. Never gave it much thought... am I doin it rite?
Ava
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Lies!
We've had discussions in alliance chat about which comrade has the most efficient mining yield!
Good for you. You have seen more than I have in that regard.
@ Ava, I'd like you to clarify if you feel offended by terms used in this forum or if your apparent irritation stems form players in general.
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Loving how when PvPers are proud of their skill, non-PvPers say stuff like "seeing who's dick is bigger".
Seriously.
Neither Ava, nor I, have a dick.
Anyway, killboards are a terrible way to gauge "skill" much of the time. You can determine 1) does this person solo a lot and 2) perhaps, what are they likely to be flying? A good k/d ratio solo is sometimes an indicator of skill, but, as stated above... see Lukka.
Ava is a combat pilot, and I rp her as such, fighting for the TLF. Never gave it much thought... am I doin it rite?
Ava
Agreed WRT uses of killboards (Tarunik has been known to check past combat records of his foes, with variable results).
From the perspective of pride...it's your war stories that count. Tarunik, for instance, is very proud of the time he and a corpmate (him in a 'Cane, his m8 in a Drake) were able to burn down 1 Loki and drive off another after they combat-probed Tarunik down and tried to jump him in a Grav site.
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Being bad-ass is relative. I clearly remember that in PIE getting 50 kills was huge, and 200 kills was the pinnacle (the highest combat reward stood at 200).
Expressing bad-assedness is another thing entirely.
And despite its lack of accuracy and warped representation of the reality, killboards are used as a measuring stick of PVP-ability in EVE, and PvP ability is the primary OOC measure of bad-assedness that people respect in EVE. That's just the way it is.
I had once player that I've had killed convo me being proud of himself because he held out so long against a top-2000 player. I was ?, but that's how many see it I've experienced.
I noticed that flying a single signature vessel a lot (and well) helps in establishing PvP reputation.
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Actually, from a roleplay standpoint, mission-runners should actually be far more feared and respected than capsuleers who habitually kill their own, because when you kill a capsuleer, it is more or less implicit that all you've done is inconvenienced them - they'll be back. Capsuleers assemble ships and modules in a matter of hours and can obtain all the wealth to replace lost assets in a few minutes, and their expertise and experience is not lost when they die - merely transferred to a new body. When you kill a pirate ship, that's a large investment of time, money and personnel on the part of the organisation in question that's permanently gone. It's actually somewhat rare that a war will permanently destroy a capsuleer organisation, but every time you finish a level IV mission, that's an operation that probably took months of planning and billions of ISK right down the drain.
Besides, since there are more NPC ships than capsuleer vessels, the total human kill count of a mission runner is probably astronomical, whereas since capsuleer ships require a significantly reduced crew, capsuleers who kill other capsuleers probably have a much lower bodycount to their name. If, like me, you serve a faction, you're also most likely performing a much more useful service by completing a mission than by destroying capsuleers.
Yes, I know that's not how it works in out-of-character respect allocation, but remember that in-character, it doesn't work the same way.
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Andreus, the flaw in your argument is the same as "killboards don't make you good." Quality>quantity. IC or OOC, anyone who has fought a player and run a mission knows the former requires more skill unless you're flying against a bad pilot. Ergo, while you may be destroying more, you aren't scarier. By that logic, suicide gankers who nab 20b isk marauders are scary because of the sheer amount of stuff they blew up.
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From a pirate's point of view, Andreus is right of course. However, from a capsuleer's point of view (and that was what we were talking about), destroying NPCs is equivalent to killing ants by squashing them with your finger. It takes time, but isn't particularly difficult.
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From a pirate's point of view, Andreus is right of course. However, from a capsuleer's point of view (and that was what we were talking about), destroying NPCs is equivalent to killing ants by squashing them with your finger. It takes time, but isn't particularly difficult.
Better said than my post.
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Andreus, the flaw in your argument is the same as "killboards don't make you good." Quality>quantity. IC or OOC, anyone who has fought a player and run a mission knows the former requires more skill unless you're flying against a bad pilot.
That's true (but also, killboards don't make you good). I was more arguing against the general and somewhat inexplicable IC opinion that people who run missions are essentially doing nothing.
Ergo, while you may be destroying more, you aren't scarier. By that logic, suicide gankers who nab 20b isk marauders are scary because of the sheer amount of stuff they blew up.
Think about this for a sec, Bacch, because actually, yeah, that concept is pretty scary. People who could strike anywhere, at any time and with quite possibly with no thought for their own security status, financial solvency or personal safety, whose only intention, at the end of the day, is the single-minded drive to ruin your shit.
That's actually a pretty scary thought. Suicide gankers are basically terrorists.
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Suicide gankers are basically terrorists.
Which is why I love that Rote Kapelle does a yearly campaign of highsec ganking the week of Christmas. :evil:
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Which is why I love that Rote Kapelle does a yearly campaign of highsec ganking the week of Christmas. :evil:
Well thanks, 'cause now I know when not to mission. ;)
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By that logic, suicide gankers who nab 20b isk marauders are scary because of the sheer amount of stuff they blew up.
Hey, those guys ARE scary :)
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When a two-day old noob says that they're a bad-ass starship captain, then they're RPing either a lunatic or a liar.
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If I ran a mining corp I'd definitely make propaganda posts about how incredible we were at sucking crok.
:)
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This is an interesting topic to be honest.
I think that in the end roleplaying a character who for instance is a recently graduated capsuleer who's middle aged (30-40) and has a solid history as a merc or navy ground pounder beforehand is perfectly acceptable in my opinion. So long as that character recognises that they're new to the capsuleer scene and that they have been effectively relegated to the bottom of the food chain.
One thing I love in Eve is watching how players, their characters and their relationships develop. Reputation always tends to make itself in eve over a period of time. I mean, when I first started, Verone was a disgruntled low ranking Federal Officer who'd been through a messy court martial and decided to walk away from the Federation, seeing no other option but exile from his home. He's come a long way since then as a Gurista loyalist.
In terms of what's seen as "bad ass", I'm sure that a mission runner who works for the Federation Navy, has +9.8 standings to a whole host of Federal corporations, and +9 to the Federation will be seen by the average Federal baseliner as a hero to the Federation and valued contracted asset to the Federal war machine.
In the same respect that capsuleer will be looked at as being low threat to most other capsuleers, someone who basically runs around as a bitch to their chosen faction, squashing bugs and taking out the garbage.
It's all a matter of perception really, we'll see another capsuleer completely different to what a baseliner does.
Anyway, killboards are a terrible way to gauge "skill" much of the time. You can determine 1) does this person solo a lot and 2) perhaps, what are they likely to be flying? A good k/d ratio solo is sometimes an indicator of skill, but, as stated above... see Lukka.
This basically.
By that logic, suicide gankers who nab 20b isk marauders are scary because of the sheer amount of stuff they blew up.
Hey, those guys ARE scary :)
I've only ever lost one ship to them.
I loved that crane, and the fortune it was carrying in datacores. Fuckers.
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When a two-day old noob says that they're a bad-ass starship captain, then they're RPing either a lunatic or a liar.
At two-days old, they character is practically still a baseline human and not a proper post human. To a baseline human any starship captain who can dogfight and win against more than ten other starships is a bad-ass. To continue with the metaphor above, he's an ant who only ever known the the world of an ant and is now slowly becoming a human. At the stage were he can dominate the entire ant hill, but is not yet aware of the wider world of the human he's going to be pretty smug. Of course, non of the this disqualifies him as a lunatic.
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When a two-day old noob says that they're a bad-ass starship captain, then they're RPing either a lunatic or a liar.
At two-days old, they character is practically still a baseline human and not a proper post human. To a baseline human any starship captain who can dogfight and win against more than ten other starships is a bad-ass. To continue with the metaphor above, he's an ant who only ever known the the world of an ant and is now slowly becoming a human. At the stage were he can dominate the entire ant hill, but is not yet aware of the wider world of the human he's going to be pretty smug. Of course, non of the this disqualifies him as a lunatic.
Actually. IC Crow was a something of bad-ass starship captain before he ever became a capsuleer.
That is to say. He was a bad-ass when compared to some human captains commanding standard crewed ship. And likely to have gotten wiped out by most any capsuleer commanded ship like just another Navy rat. ;)
I think bad-assness of a character history from human side is unlikely to translate directly into bad-assness as a capsuleer. After all a situation of real life and death danger to a human, is at worst a matter of upgrading your clone and setting up the next ship.