Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Julianus Soter on 05 Dec 2011, 07:55
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Liberate the Miners
Ah, straight to the point. Good. Wait ... you’re Julianus Soter, aren’t you? Perfect. At the moment, I have a matter here that requires someone of your ability.
An associate of mine owns a mining concern in Miroitem, and a few months ago he contracted a small, private mining sompany to do the work there. However, we have just discovered that the company he hired is secretly run by the Amarrians. Unbelievable, I know, but those Scripture-spouting lunatics are cunning.
Well, things there in the past 24 hours have very quickly gone downhill. Knowing the jig is up, the Amarrians behind the whole thing sent in a big task force of ships and supplies, and they’ve set up a bunch of powerful sentry towers, turning the place into a labor camp so they can strip the place and flee before the military can be called in to deal with them. No doubt taking all the laborers with them, at z-stick-point, to be made into slaves when they return. Cunning bastards.
Since the navy likely won’t be able to rally a response soon enough, we desperately need someone like you, who knows starship combat. We need you to go in there and destroy the Amarrian forces so we can send in some personnel transports to get those workers out!
Slavery and the Amarr Mindset
Religion is of great importance to every Amarrian ― at least in public, if not in private. This fervor has at various times been the cause of both great good and great evil, as has religion in every age of humankind.
Shortly after recovering from the closure of EVE, millennia ago, the Amarrians began to expand their realm and colonize other planets and, eventually, constellations. The worlds they conquered were enslaved, a practice justified by the Amarr Scriptures. Ever since, the Amarrians have attempted to enslave every nation and race they have encountered, and slavery remains an essential part of Amarr society. This practice has, of course, tainted their relations with other races.
So, yes, Amarrians enslave people outside their borders and bring them back to the Empire.
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For some reason my reading comprehension as a non-native seems to be a tad dodgy.
To me, nothing in that snippet says that Amarrians are practicing slavery outside Amarrian borders.
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Knowing the jig is up, the Amarrians behind the whole thing sent in a big task force of ships and supplies, and they’ve set up a bunch of powerful sentry towers, turning the place into a labor camp so they can strip the place and flee before the military can be called in to deal with them. No doubt taking all the laborers with them, at z-stick-point, to be made into slaves when they return. Cunning bastards.
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There are a few mission reports to that end. E.g. "In the Midst of Deadspace" (L4 mission series from Minmatar agents) has you liberate an Amarrian slave compound in Republic space, including an Imperial Officer speaking:
Not you again. We just finished repairing the damage you did to the slave compound. You won't get away with this a second time!
In a later stage, you find the slave compound (guarded by Caldari), and your agent tells you via popup:
This is your agent again. So this is what they were up to! No wonder they needed all those slaves. A joint venture between the Caldari and Imperial Navies to construct a massive manufacturing plant right in our backyard. This explains everything, the increased activity of their forces inside our sovereign space, the enslavement of some of our civilians ... this must be put to an end immediately [...]
Last time I raised that with an Amarrian, I was told roughly that missions are so weird that they don't count for PF.
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Last time I raised that with an Amarrian, I was told roughly that missions are so weird that they don't count for PF.
I wish I had that kind of get-out-of-PF-for-free card for the Gallente.
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Prejudice.
Basicly nothing of that mission RP brief mentioning slaves and taking thereof is anything but conjecture.
Facts are: 1. Hired a corporation 2. Corporation is run by Amarrians. (Part about finding out, just now, is not a fact.) 3. Corporation has brought in heavy defence.
Amarrians take slaves from outside the Amarr Empire. -The most common form of objection fielded by Amarr loyalist is not that it does not happen. Merely that those doing so are not currently doing it with the blessing of the Empirial authority ;)
Minor things but since this is OOC I'll point out that automatically assuming that the mission agents are giving an unbiased, or even truthful description of the mission is a bit off.
Also I do agree OOC that the 'not currently approved slave taking' seems bit thin excuse. But if it works IC, well. :P
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Last time I raised that with an Amarrian, I was told roughly that missions are so weird that they don't count for PF.
I wish I had that kind of get-out-of-PF-for-free card for the Gallente.
If you feel like pulling that one, I would like to remind that for instance Crow is aware of several cases where Minmatar fleet ships have directly assisted Minmatar freedom fighters.
Taking such missions as pure IC seems to suggest that there is a war on. And any pretense of peace or honoring signed treaties is barely a pretense. In short, either all sides can pull the 'rogue' card or none can.
Personally :psyccp:
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"My agent's assumptions on the purpose of these things I'm gonna blow up are supertruth!" :roll:
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Prejudice.
Basicly nothing of that mission RP brief mentioning slaves and taking thereof is anything but conjecture.
Facts are: 1. Hired a corporation 2. Corporation is run by Amarrians. (Part about finding out, just now, is not a fact.) 3. Corporation has brought in heavy defence.
Amarrians take slaves from outside the Amarr Empire. -The most common form of objection fielded by Amarr loyalist is not that it does not happen. Merely that those doing so are not currently doing it with the blessing of the Empirial authority ;)
Minor things but since this is OOC I'll point out that automatically assuming that the mission agents are giving an unbiased, or even truthful description of the mission is a bit off.
Also I do agree OOC that the 'not currently approved slave taking' seems bit thin excuse. But if it works IC, well. :P
Not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.
Amarrians with any significant in-space assets are feudal lords. Holders. The Empress herself designates rights and powers to the Holders. Companies within the Amarr Empire are holder-invested in and holder-controlled.
Having an Amarrian corporation fly into Federation space, set up a work camp with Gallente and other local citizens as their work force, as the mission information states, presumably subjecting them to work conditions not quite on par with what the Federation expects, since they're keeping those citizens there with vast military force.
If you put up a chainlink fence with barbed wire, can you claim anything other than involuntary servitude?
Logically, the result of this analysis reinforces my initial claim; that the Amarrians are enslaving foreign nationals within foreign sovereign space, and then taking them back with them to the Empire. Why the Amarrians would let them go at this point, to be living, breathing witnesses to what happened, is beyond my comprehension.
So, before flinging around words like 'prejudice' in an OOC debate, please remember we're all players of the same game here. I'm merely attempting to elucidate an often-contended point on inter-empire relations.
If we are going to claim that missions have no semblance of PF truth, then at least don't be shy about it. We're merely throwing away the life's work of dozens of CCP employees on the whim that the content they created doesn't match our pre-determined notions of how our factions operate.
Personally, I feel we owe a bit more to the fine folks at CCP to at least think about these kinds of questions, instead of :roll: :roll: and :roll:
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Amarrians with any significant in-space assets are feudal lords. Holders. The Empress herself designates rights and powers to the Holders. Companies within the Amarr Empire are holder-invested in and holder-controlled.
No. The Empire is not a communist state. Private individuals own massive companies, and are only restricted from owning fleets inside the Empire. The mostly Ni-Kunni-dominated merchant caste is rising in power for this reason.
Having an Amarrian corporation fly into Federation space, set up a work camp with Gallente and other local citizens as their work force, as the mission information states, presumably subjecting them to work conditions not quite on par with what the Federation expects, since they're keeping those citizens there with vast military force.
No. Things like capsuleers like to stop by and blow everything up. Much like you do in this mission. Given that this is a fairly common occurence for many space-based operation nowadays, what are you expecting instead?
If you put up a chainlink fence with barbed wire, can you claim anything other than involuntary servitude?
Yes! No one said the employees were trapped! The agent is simply sure it's for some evil Amarrian purpose, those rascals.
Logically, the result of this analysis reinforces my initial claim; that the Amarrians are enslaving foreign nationals within foreign sovereign space, and then taking them back with them to the Empire. Why the Amarrians would let them go at this point, to be living, breathing witnesses to what happened, is beyond my comprehension.
Since all availible evidence suggests sensible conditions for a well-protected deep-space venture, the rest of the process for reaching this conclusion seem based on blind trust to the motives of the employer. How delightful for him/her!
So, before flinging around words like 'prejudice' in an OOC debate, please remember we're all players of the same game here. I'm merely attempting to elucidate an often-contended point on inter-empire relations.
Stop that. He's saying the agent is prejudiced. I don't know of any that aren't, from any side. No one is being called any names. Stop pointing fingers.
Am I saying Amarrians don't enslave others when given the chance? No. We love that shit.
I'm saying that THIS case is illustrating something else entirely; the assumptions made by others toward Amarrian intentions, no matter what those intentions really are. This is where the Empire's reputation (at least among the Feds) currently is, this many conclusions are readily jumped to without any further investigation, and off you go to blow it all up.
I think the point this mission is trying to make is subtle.
It's all about assumptions.
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First that 'Prejudice' is about the mission brief/ agent giving it. It is quite frankly racist. (as are some other missionbriefs from other agents)
Your logical argument on that it would be prudent to take the workforce back to Amarr space as slaves is laying on the foundation of: 'Presumably' even the part about work camp relies on that.
If I remember correctly level five missions (these days) are 100% in lowsec? If so then setting up barbed wire and guard towers with gatling guns could be justified as 'defending' that workforce and assets of the corporation. You know, from pirates (and random insane demi-gods).
As for the larger description of Amarr Empire as a Feudal society, I agree. It is a feudal society. However I do disagree with your description of any Amarrian with space assets as being a holder.
Others holding significant assets in Amarrian feudal system are likely to be two classes: 1. Clergy. 2.Merchants. That operation can be run by any powerful member of three Amarrian classes.
Merchant class is likely under less restrictions when operating outside Amarrian borders. Sub-contracting 'guards' in Gallante space is unlikely to cause any Holder to take offence to the foreign troops in his space.
As far as ignoring the missions, etc. Quite frankly I'm fine with including such within IC discussion however in my opinion taking all mission breefings as 100% fact is an untenable suggestion.
Further are we also taking in space ships as fact?
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Further are we also taking in space ships as fact?
This is a bloody massive arguement that appears from time to time. You're not going to get an easy answer; the community is (from what I've seen) pretty heavily split on this one.
Re - missions... *sigh* I'm pretty hesitent to declare them as 'proof' myself, given that they not only widely contradict PF (some of my agents are still asking me to gather materials 'for the posssibility of conflict with the Republic', for instance), but because taking them at face value results in some pretty wierd logical moments as well - for instance, hostile ships regularly penetrating deep into enemy territory, pirate factions loosing thousands (if not tens of thousands) of battleships a day, or my fighting the same named NPC several times a day with no change in their demeanor, reaction, or method of engaging me.
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Shortly after recovering from the closure of EVE, millennia ago, the Amarrians began to expand their realm and colonize other planets and, eventually, constellations.
I would like to personally burn at the stake the writer who added this last bit on the mission info.....
when will they learn that the whole thing about the EvE gate needs to stay myth with an "ongoing archeological research".
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What Graelyn, Crow and Esna said above for me. This mission brief only proves there is a contentious point here, but guilt is definitly not proven.
Anyway, I was about to say, nothing new ? We all know that rogue amarrians tend to hide behind companies in other empires to do dirty business (even sometimes with amarr navy ships NPC), the same way we know that every empire likes to fuck up with other empires in the exact same fashion, depending for who you take your missions.
Then yes, the validity of pve missions... I have always been somewhat ok with them until I came to work for SOE. SOE is pretty epic. They give you gallente oriented missions, and when its against empire factions, its against Amarr or Caldari. And I get these missions when I run missions in Caldari Space. Against Caldari Navy. Yay ?
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(http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2011/12/how-to-start-an-argument-on-the-internet.jpg)
is relevant
As for missions =/= PF, I tend to just ignore them entirely.
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I think they needed to put up the sentry towers because they'd just get camped in by the United Campers of Rancer (TM) otherwise. Not that they wouldn't do it anyway of course...also, for the Amarrians to get there in the first place without running head-on into said campers, they'd have to go the long way around, which takes them straight through the heart of the Minmatar Republic. Sound like a fun choice?
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This is why I'm glad I work for CPF. All my missions are indisputable facts.
Somebody needed to die and Senn killed him, the end, go home to smoke and watch kenduzana.
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This thread reads like a lot of upset.
I do not think we can simply use mission descriptions and go for "as-is" - especially old missions are horrible in that. Nor can we simply go "nah, those missions don't exist" just because they say something we don't like.
There is a rather new mission series called "Are You Receiving?" which has the following bit in the "extra info" some missions have, under the heading "Modern Slavery in Amarr." I think it's a very good description and pretty much reflects my understanding of the situation:
Whatever their other gifts, the Amarr are very good at two things: piety and self-justification. Both of these qualities, but most assuredly the second, come in handy when one considers the issue of slavery.
Since slavery is a consistently inherent theme in their religious doctrine (and how can something be wrong if faith allows it?), the Amarr must contend at all times with the disgust other races feel toward slavery. Chief among their opponents are the Gallente, whose displeasure is undoubtedly fueled by the many transplanted Minmatar flooding their homeworlds and stations. In the halcyon days of the Empire, the Amarr would easily have dismissed such concerns — but recent history has brought to some Amarr, at least, both humility and prudence.
Yet the need for slaves has not diminished — and in fact, since the recent Elder Fleet "recovery" effort in Amarr space, that need has grown terribly. However, the Amarr tradition of collecting slaves has necessarily become problematic for those Heirs and Holders, who may face trade embargoes and similar punitive actions from other nations. So many Amarr look surreptitiously to more "independent" sources of slaves — sources who don’t care for any optics outside of their own bank balances.
The situation as I understand it is simply that the Amarr do indeed raid other nations for slaves, but they'd rather not officially admit it and try to deny it when confronted with the fact. That's pretty much also what the Republic did with the freedom fighters: Of course the Republic supported them, but they officially denied any involvement. (We, as in EM, had a lot of fun with the RP with those who claimed the Republic didn't do anything to free people; "OF COURSE WE DO, BUT WE CAN'T ADMIT IT, YOU IDIOT *grmbl*" :-D Ah, good old times)
The IGS debates are beautiful reflections of that: The Amarr consistently deny any such incursions, despite any evidence. Of course those raids exist, but they wouldn't admit to them.
It's a very nice story background. All empires have these "things they do but won't admit to." I'm pretty sure there are plenty in the Gal/Cal conflict, too, and not just the spy towers the Federation puts up in the Republic :-)
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Bible fiiiiight! Can someone please explain the relevance of proving unequivocally the amarr slave people outside their borders? Also, was that the point of this thread?
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Shooking new :o
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Bible fiiiiight! Can someone please explain the relevance of proving unequivocally the amarr slave people outside their borders? Also, was that the point of this thread?
I took it as a discussion on what PF says about certain activities in the fictional world in which our characters interact. Such discussions are useful to be able to interact with each other, as they establish a common expectation of the world the characters interact in.
For example, if two characters meet for a discussion, one assumes that it's common knowledge and widely accepted that the Amarr raid other empires for slaves, and the other assumes that's completely wrong and everyone knows that the Amarr do not raid other empires, all you will end up with is two players being upset about the other player ignoring PF. Having an OOC discussion that gives a few evidences on what the intended situation in the game world likely looks like, and what the "common knowledge" of the average capsuleer would be, brings everyone on the same page, and enables them to actually enjoy the RP interaction.
But there's so much hostility and "you are doing it wrong" in this thread that I'll bow out now.
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level 5 missions are one of the bigger examples of schrodinger's PF.
stuff that only exists once people observe it (and post on forums about it), and otherwise doesn't exist.
there's a whole lot of it, and it can get really annoying.
like, a mission that I saw for the first time recently, I posted about it, and some other people said it was old, and they'd seen it a couple years before or so.
it means that they'd been playing with one set of information about the cultures of eve, and I'd been playing with a different set.
so, the discussions about "that's not how the federation works" or whatever, simply don't work, because of this effect, leading to accusations that player X is being ludicrously obstinate, or whatever.
it makes me :(
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Yea Louella, Eve lore is like that. Worse than the lvl 5 missions are the old news articles that don't show up in the news articles. Someone who started as early as 2007 is going to have a different view of the game world than someone from who started 2004. There are deleted missions, missing news articles and even live events that built my world view and there is not much I can do when somebody says 'citation needed.' Meh.
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I remember asking around if we could approach CCP to do a "2nd pass" over mission storyline info after their own workgroup has released the material for go-live.
Voluntary work to check on the context of the mission and how it compares to existing and already public PF.
I know it would cause some level of arguing, but the above example posted by Julianus could be described in a much more believable context than it is currently.
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Bible fiiiiight! Can someone please explain the relevance of proving unequivocally the amarr slave people outside their borders? Also, was that the point of this thread?
I took it as a discussion on what PF says about certain activities in the fictional world in which our characters interact. Such discussions are useful to be able to interact with each other, as they establish a common expectation of the world the characters interact in.
For example, if two characters meet for a discussion, one assumes that it's common knowledge and widely accepted that the Amarr raid other empires for slaves, and the other assumes that's completely wrong and everyone knows that the Amarr do not raid other empires, all you will end up with is two players being upset about the other player ignoring PF. Having an OOC discussion that gives a few evidences on what the intended situation in the game world likely looks like, and what the "common knowledge" of the average capsuleer would be, brings everyone on the same page, and enables them to actually enjoy the RP interaction.
But there's so much hostility and "you are doing it wrong" in this thread that I'll bow out now.
In a universe with lots of fictional gaps and contradictions, trying to find some common ground is going to be hard to find when one side is trying to win by telling the other they are doing it wrong and the other says the data is inaccurate because the info is opinion-based. Trying to win ic debates oocly seems pretty silly to me. Isn't there room for all kinds of exceptions?
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Even if we had a definitive compilation of all the PF included in missions, and it was all entirely accurate and accredited by CCP in some manner of New Eden Encyclopedia, we still wouldn't agree on it.
No one likes having their narrative changed. It's why people still debate on which foreign people discovered the Americas first.
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When becomes appearent that another player has a different understanding of New Eden than I do, I usually have Hamish smile politely and excuse himself from the conversation. Players using characters to debate PF leads to weirdness.
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When becomes appearent that another player has a different understanding of New Eden than I do, I usually have Hamish smile politely and excuse himself from the conversation. Players using characters to debate PF leads to weirdness.
Which I think is why some people were trying to discuss it here, OOC, so there was a better chance that IC play would be happening in a shared-enough consensual hallucination.
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Seems I'll need to explain the players thinking here.
I think the slavery case for the Amarrians is pretty straight forward. Yes they do it. Anybody who succeeds in bringing large amounts of lower generation slaves to the market will make mint. -Not only in isk, but power.
However currently the powers that be frown on this. It is even politically wise for them to see that those with the 'lean and hungry' look be forced to take risks far beyond the normal scope of Holders, clergy and merchants.
Getting caught is same as being unworthy in some measure (Intelligence, power or just luck). So anybody who gets caught will be treated as a rogue, likely to full measure of the law. (Unless they can circumvent it.)
Despite that, this level five mission brief reads as a prejudiced one. Taking what our mission agents say as truth -and nothing but- OOC or IC is going to lead to trouble. OOC headaches and IC insanely different views of the world depending on where you do missions. Though IC that's ok isn't it and actually something to support.
It does tell how some of the Gallante are likely to see and react to any Amarrian operation within Gallante space. It also tells us that at least some Amarrians are investing in foreign corporations. (Or flat out buyin such.) Cause if that corporation was clearly Amarrian, they would not have gotten the job in the first place.
So. There are plenty of Amarrian people of different classes who have turned to 'illegal slave taking' in order to gain money and power back in Amarr. And that there are plenty of racist Gallanteans who will assume worst of any Amarrian. What else is new? :twisted:
What I am trying to point out here is that the mission brief itself is written in such a way as to bring up, both the horrid reputation of Amarrians and the lack of facts on what the Amarrian owned corporation is actually doing.
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It's gone now, but there was once a mission handed out by the Caldari Navy to kill a Amarrian slave raiders going for Caldari slaves.
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When becomes appearent that another player has a different understanding of New Eden than I do, I usually have Hamish smile politely and excuse himself from the conversation. Players using characters to debate PF leads to weirdness.
Honestly, when I get this, I usually respond with, "Well, where I'm from we do it x way." That way I can still give them the space to do as they please while at the same time saying, "This is how I see things."
But of course there's limits. If they tell me they're from battlestar galactica or Earth I'll smile and nod and assume the guy is a little off his rocker.
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I remember asking around if we could approach CCP to do a "2nd pass" over mission storyline info after their own workgroup has released the material for go-live.
Voluntary work to check on the context of the mission and how it compares to existing and already public PF.
I know it would cause some level of arguing, but the above example posted by Julianus could be described in a much more believable context than it is currently.
I believe all missions are going to be scrapped and completely redone over the next year or so anyways (remember, sleeperAI was supposed to be a prototype for all NPC AI), or so I really hope. If so, none of this will matter much.
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a thing, related to what I said earlier.
There is a widespread, reasonably large organisation in Amarr space, a network of fanatical believers in Scripture, who argue that the passages of Scripture frequently cited as being pr0-slavery can be interpreted in a different way, that does not justify slavery, and actually say the opposite.
This group smuggles large numbers of slaves out of Amarr space, into the areas where they came from, i.e. minmatar to republic space etc. You'd think then, that in the destination nations, then that people would have some awareness that this group of fanatics actually exist, from talking with returnees, or reading an interview with a returnee or whatever.
Now then, the missions where this group is mentioned, you only get from Amarr agents. So only players with amarr characters would hear of this group.
So players with minmatar characters, would be in the dark about it, and it's a reasonably significant thing to be in the dark about.
Or what about that event mission for Minmatar, where they explain that voluval marks can be changed ?
That's a pretty big thing too, isn't it?
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@_@
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Lou,
Maybe CCP is dark and twisted enough that the mission jules quoted is the other half of the one you are talking about :p. Liberal Amarrians ship rescued slaves to the Fed via dummy corps, paranoid Gallente agent hires Capsuleer to blow them up.
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Lou,
Maybe CCP is dark and twisted enough that the mission jules quoted is the other half of the one you are talking about :p. Liberal Amarrians ship rescued slaves to the Fed via dummy corps, paranoid Gallente agent hires Capsuleer to blow them up.
Damn, you're good.
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Lou,
Maybe CCP is dark and twisted enough that the mission jules quoted is the other half of the one you are talking about :p. Liberal Amarrians ship rescued slaves to the Fed via dummy corps, paranoid Gallente agent hires Capsuleer to blow them up.
CCP: The reason we can't have nice things.
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Lou,
Maybe CCP is dark and twisted enough that the mission jules quoted is the other half of the one you are talking about :p. Liberal Amarrians ship rescued slaves to the Fed via dummy corps, paranoid Gallente agent hires Capsuleer to blow them up.
Considering there are Gallentean organizations hell bent on making the Amarrians look bad at all costs, even if they have to blow up CONCORD observers and Minmatar relief convoys to do it (assuming that old Level 2 chain mission is still kicking around out there), this is quite believable.
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Lou,
Maybe CCP is dark and twisted enough that the mission jules quoted is the other half of the one you are talking about :p. Liberal Amarrians ship rescued slaves to the Fed via dummy corps, paranoid Gallente agent hires Capsuleer to blow them up.
@_@
Okay, nice one :p