Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 09 Nov 2011, 20:03
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Posted this thread (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=336842#post336842) just an hour ago. As expected, the initial replies were "wut".
This goes back to what I've mentioned months ago but not basing characterization around faction. There have been many occurences in my time RPing that Seriphyn should join the Guristas or Angel Cartel, but from how I've characterized him, it makes little sense. It makes as much sense as going "The UK government is corrupt, join the Taliban!". Germany may have a superior economy to the UK, but I'm British, not German, so why would I join the German military? From an ethnocentric perspective, if the Gallente Federation was the only human race in EVE, and the rest were aliens, then no one (incl. Seri) would need to question why he was fighting for the Federation. It appears completely natural.
I think it may stem to the fact that, as players, we have a metaknowledge of all four factions, their flaws, their redeeming factors, and so forth. That makes it fair easier to jump ship, and whatnot.
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That, and boredom that leads to 'fuck fixing this ship - let's leave for the next one and swear to sink it instead!'
Fucking predictable, boring and by now, horribly clichè.
Also, the responces to that tread so far... weak. I wonder, did the toons not get it, or did the players not get it?
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This is pretty much why Esna's still backing the Empire, and why he'll most likely never join a specifically Republic-loyal or pirate-loyal group. People somewhere in the middle? Sure, no problem - but it'd take quite a bit for him to defect to an organization whose goals directly conflict with the continuing well-being and safety of the people he is protecting currently. Sadly, the vast majority of NPC factions (and many player ones) fit this description.
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I understand what you're saying here. I didn't understand that thread because it seemed out of context.
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Posted this thread (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=336842#post336842) just an hour ago. As expected, the initial replies were "wut".
This goes back to what I've mentioned months ago but not basing characterization around faction. There have been many occurences in my time RPing that Seriphyn should join the Guristas or Angel Cartel, but from how I've characterized him, it makes little sense. It makes as much sense as going "The UK government is corrupt, join the Taliban!". Germany may have a superior economy to the UK, but I'm British, not German, so why would I join the German military? From an ethnocentric perspective, if the Gallente Federation was the only human race in EVE, and the rest were aliens, then no one (incl. Seri) would need to question why he was fighting for the Federation. It appears completely natural.
I think it may stem to the fact that, as players, we have a metaknowledge of all four factions, their flaws, their redeeming factors, and so forth. That makes it fair easier to jump ship, and whatnot.
The overarching issue as I see it is that while there are some aspects of cultures that are considered alien to each other, the most obvious ones that really identify them are largely unrecognized. As an Westerner, I could fly over to the Middle East, and suddenly find myself in a nearly foreign culture with very little in common to my own, but what is the first thing that separates us? Language. Styles of dress, religion, courting behavior, personal outlook; none of this is largely visible between capsuleers and we are largely forced to input our own interpretation. And while this may be the fault of CCP or its playerbase for not putting enough thought into this, text is sometimes a limiting factor in distinguishing these things.
Another point to consider is that Capsuleers are a culture unto their own, with their own customs, laws, moral boundaries, and styles of behavior that depart from their places of origin. We even share a language (mostly!). We see this in our own society with the extremely wealthy, who are often deemed eccentric for their interests and odd belief system. There is a whole different mindset for elites that amass wealth greater than the GDP of entire solar systems, so it stands to reason that when freed from the constraints of their past lives perspective on the world around them changes. Imagine being a powerful freelance mercenary who was in demand by every country in the world to fight proxy wars and do the dirty jobs that the formal military are unable to do due to political considerations, and you made billions of <insert your currency here> in the process, and earned the respect and consideration of these factions. Sure, there might be some people that are indebted to their home country, but many people, for the right price and motivation, will do just about anything to anyone. Everyone has a price.
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So everyone is supposed to wave the flag of their own nation simply because they were born there? That's an incredibly silly notion.
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So everyone is supposed to wave the flag of their own nation simply because they were born there? That's an incredibly silly notion.
I don't think he means everyone should do it.
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So everyone is supposed to wave the flag of their own nation simply because they were born there? That's an incredibly silly notion.
No. But when the most common result of most people's 'employment' in their nations is a flaming defection/betrayal for the sake of ego/drama/whatever the end result is that the most un-common choice is made by the ones who remain loyal for years on end and never defect/betray, and the idea of a 'loyalist' capsuleer becomes the less-respectable option simply because it's less common. Few non-Amarrians seem to respect Blake, for instance, but plenty of pirates/defecters/traitors/freelancers/etc respect each other highly. Besides all these we have the ones who made the more... 'natural' choice; they stopped directly supporting their empire, but did not go out of their way to hinder it, either. Or opt for piracy.
You don't have to be a flag-waving national to feel a sense of 'belonging' anywhere, as Seriphyn meant - a 'loyalist' is merely one that focuses on the betterment/service to/defence of their chosen nation - anyone else who feel they 'belong' don't have to actively help to do so, so long as they don't work to hinder/hurt/destroy said nation.
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See I do occassionally feel some kinship (as Jade) for some Gallentean cultural ideals. Freedom of speech, cosmopolitan outlook, political activism, libertarian economic aspirations etc.
But I get disappointed that most Gallentean Nationalist Roleplayers seem (in my opinion) to be playing indentikit State Fascists. (Amarrian extremists or Caldari jackboots with Gallente flags draped over their extremism basically).
I've been much happier with the Intaki roleplayers over all, who I perceive do bring more actual difference to their portrayal of nationalism according to their factional choice.
Sometimes I have even said IC that to Jade's perception most Nationalists are the same and issue the same kind of argumentative dogma and core set of beliefs in roleplay that means in essence the nationalist "game" is no more differentiated than "red vs blue".
For example. Look at a core Gallentean Nationalist outfit at the moment... Serephim, Soter, Ixirus - all the rhetoric coming out seems to be "X nation is the mother and father, obey the Senate!" and I can't really see how that differs from the pro Heth people in the Caldari State or even the Pro Sarum people in the Amarrian Faction.
(Referencing particularly the anti intaki, anti syndicate, anti this that threads from these directions in last few months).
I guess I'm saying nationalism would be easier to love it wasn't always the extremist nationalism of the provosts and black eagles jack-booting around new eden only differentiated by their uniform lapels.
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But I get disappointed that most Gallentean Nationalist Roleplayers seem (in my opinion) to be playing indentikit State Fascists. (Amarrian extremists or Caldari jackboots with Gallente flags draped over their extremism basically).
Wulp, hate to pour gasoline on a bonfire, but, they really aren't that different in terms of nationality.
I mean at one point they were cooperative. The only difference is, to channel a little philosophy from the 19th century, the post-war Federation focused on being the "free society" while the post-war Caldari focused on being the "Hegelian state." Arguably, they're equally zealous about who has the greater nation, the only true difference is that one valorizes individuality while the other valorizes nationalism.
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Playing the norm for a culture can be a lot of fun. You get to develop context about what life's like when you' re part of a developed and rounded community, and if you play with others who also play the norms you get to share and re-use and worldbuild together.
It's also a somewhat satisfying reaction against special-snowflakery or not-another-cliche, since it seems to be relatively rare.
I'd love more 2nd-, 3rd- and 4th-generation freeborn Matari, by the way. Just living it and rocking it and doing the things people do while dealing with the issues people deal with.
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See I do occassionally feel some kinship (as Jade) for some Gallentean cultural ideals. Freedom of speech, cosmopolitan outlook, political activism, libertarian economic aspirations etc.
Mata's stance IC is that anarchism is the logical extension of Gallente ideals of individualism.
But I get disappointed that most Gallentean Nationalist Roleplayers seem (in my opinion) to be playing indentikit State Fascists. (Amarrian extremists or Caldari jackboots with Gallente flags draped over their extremism basically).
Agreed. Which is why I'd like to see more of Gallente as I imagine them (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1978.msg25281#msg25281).
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I love portraying Jowen as a simpleminded Caldari practicalist. Nothing sensational about this guy.
Of course he is proud to be Caldari, but not really a nationalist. He often talk bad about the Gallente, but the sad truth is that he spends most of his time watching Gallente produced holoreels of questionable quality so his "hatred" is more a cover for an annoyance with his own lazy lifestyle. He is further obsessed with a Gallente woman living in the same station as him claiming she is out to steal his work or ruin his life. She likely is not, and again it is a cover because he actually find this woman attractive. That thought just do not fit well with his self image. What a big obvious hypocrite he is, just like a real person. I love it.
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See I do occassionally feel some kinship (as Jade) for some Gallentean cultural ideals. Freedom of speech, cosmopolitan outlook, political activism, libertarian economic aspirations etc.
Mata's stance IC is that anarchism is the logical extension of Gallente ideals of individualism.
Some of my comrades would lynch me - but I don't really disagree :)
But I get disappointed that most Gallentean Nationalist Roleplayers seem (in my opinion) to be playing indentikit State Fascists. (Amarrian extremists or Caldari jackboots with Gallente flags draped over their extremism basically).
Agreed. Which is why I'd like to see more of Gallente as I imagine them (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1978.msg25281#msg25281).
Yep, thats exactly what I was talking about really. Thanks for the link.
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The overarching issue as I see it is that while there are some aspects of cultures that are considered alien to each other, the most obvious ones that really identify them are largely unrecognized. As an Westerner, I could fly over to the Middle East, and suddenly find myself in a nearly foreign culture with very little in common to my own, but what is the first thing that separates us? Language. Styles of dress, religion, courting behavior, personal outlook; none of this is largely visible between capsuleers and we are largely forced to input our own interpretation. And while this may be the fault of CCP or its playerbase for not putting enough thought into this, text is sometimes a limiting factor in distinguishing these things.
Another point to consider is that Capsuleers are a culture unto their own, with their own customs, laws, moral boundaries, and styles of behavior that depart from their places of origin. We even share a language (mostly!). We see this in our own society with the extremely wealthy, who are often deemed eccentric for their interests and odd belief system. There is a whole different mindset for elites that amass wealth greater than the GDP of entire solar systems, so it stands to reason that when freed from the constraints of their past lives perspective on the world around them changes. Imagine being a powerful freelance mercenary who was in demand by every country in the world to fight proxy wars and do the dirty jobs that the formal military are unable to do due to political considerations, and you made billions of <insert your currency here> in the process, and earned the respect and consideration of these factions. Sure, there might be some people that are indebted to their home country, but many people, for the right price and motivation, will do just about anything to anyone. Everyone has a price.
Quality point as always. I suppose it brings up the idea of "starship pilot or capsuleer"? Perhaps the capsule is just your work's hard hat. You slip into it to do your job, but you don't base your life around it. If Seriphyn sees himself as a pilot, and not a capsuleer, then his perspective might make sense.
Playing the norm for a culture can be a lot of fun. You get to develop context about what life's like when you' re part of a developed and rounded community, and if you play with others who also play the norms you get to share and re-use and worldbuild together.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes! I absolutely LOVE doing this, particularly integrating Gallente lifestyle technology into everyday, mundane tasks (drones to help make breakfast, a bunch of holo-billboards suddenly materializing over a forming traffic jam outside). With Minmatar, you might integrate a different cultural aspect into mundane living (maybe not technology). Unfortunately, Gallente RPers with this sort of focus are in high demand; not everyone has the same level of creative ability, and not everyone RPs for the same reasons, so...
On a side note, without too much digression, the purpose of Anette is to balance my roleplaying out as a member of the EVE RP community with the other side of the Gallente coin, with regards to arts, entertainment, pursuit of dreams, and so forth. Someone said to me last night that Anette is able to outclass 75% of those plugged into the Summit on an intellectual level while still believably acting like an 11-year old. However, not everyone has the patience for child-characters, as believable as they might be, or feel they have a place in the grimdark EVE universe. Otherwise, I would very much be interested in using her to explore the softer side of the Gallente. I could just go "fuck da pohlees" and do it anyway, if people would welcome that. The point is, is that even at 11, she wields the same sort of influence/wealth as a starting capsuleer (maybe), so it throws her into the same league of "society's elite" as capsuleers/pilots.
After all, the public sphere (emphasis on public) of Gallente society, across chrons and other PF, isn't exactly grimdark compared to other factions. Giant crystalline cities, pop stars with futuristic stageshows, domestic automation. So the presence of Anette isn't exactly violating anything.
And urgh, digression :P I might make a separate topic for her and related ideas.
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Pro-Heth Caldari jackboots are actually pretty rare, and most of them are Alts of Gallente mains who need strawmen.
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Wait, what?
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Pro-Heth Caldari jackboots are actually pretty rare, and most of them are Alts of Gallente mains who need strawmen.
Oh, indeed, indeed. The SOFcode toons were all my disposable alts, see.
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Name ten still active pro-Heth RPers.
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Name ten still active pro-anything RPers.
Not every RPer is active on the IGS anyway.
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Name ten still active pro-anything RPers.
Not every RPer is active on the IGS anyway.
Good point, but between LDIS, I-RED, and 4th alone I could come up with a decent list of State loyal but anti-Heth pilots. None of them agree on anything else mind you.
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Name ten still active pro-anything RPers.
Pro Minmatar:
Elsebeth, Arkady, Matariki, Ulf, Gottii, Altaen, CJ Walker, Borza, Ava, Kalaratiri, Kybernetes... (oh, wait)
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I am pro-life and a friendly thought towards your fellow man. :P
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All ten of my characters are pro-cookies.
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Special space hippie cookies?
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All cookies.
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Name ten still active pro-anything RPers.
Pro Minmatar:
Elsebeth, Arkady, Matariki, Ulf, Gottii, Altaen, CJ Walker, Borza, Ava, Kalaratiri, Kybernetes... (oh, wait)
wahey, I got mentioned \o/
For the record, I am pro-kiki. :D
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Yep, thats exactly what I was talking about really. Thanks for the link.
There's an earlier and shorter post from the same thread about what it would take to get me playing Gallente (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1978.msg25205#msg25205). I'd love to have had the time to develop that, but I'm committed over in the Minmatar quarter and couldn't afford to lead a Gallente "thing", only to day trip.
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Shae considers herself a Gallente patriot in that she loves what her nation wants to stand for; she likes the ideal. But she's convinced the Federation has utterly abandoned its own ideology and now uses it as a tablecloth to cover over the crusty stains of mindless self-indulgence and neo-fascism.
Which is why she gave up on them, left, and eventually joined an independent corporation aligned with the Guristas :P
Or in other words: There are many different forms that patriotism can take, and not all of those lead to flag-waving on a hilltop as the sun rises.
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Pro-Heth Caldari jackboots are actually pretty rare, and most of them are Alts of Gallente mains who need strawmen.
Wow, that's hilarious. Not what you said, but that you said it at all.
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I surprised you posted that with your main.
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Posted this thread (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=336842#post336842) just an hour ago. As expected, the initial replies were "wut".
This goes back to what I've mentioned months ago but not basing characterization around faction. There have been many occurences in my time RPing that Seriphyn should join the Guristas or Angel Cartel, but from how I've characterized him, it makes little sense. It makes as much sense as going "The UK government is corrupt, join the Taliban!". Germany may have a superior economy to the UK, but I'm British, not German, so why would I join the German military? From an ethnocentric perspective, if the Gallente Federation was the only human race in EVE, and the rest were aliens, then no one (incl. Seri) would need to question why he was fighting for the Federation. It appears completely natural.
I think it may stem to the fact that, as players, we have a metaknowledge of all four factions, their flaws, their redeeming factors, and so forth. That makes it fair easier to jump ship, and whatnot.
To address the OP, I must say that I am not personally agree with this statement.
Everyday modern life is filled with examples of people emigrating to other countries to pursue what they see as personal (economic) gain in other countries.
Everyday modern life is filled with examples of people taking up arms (literally) against their own government and fellow country men. Genocide is happening in many countries, right now. You might say that these are third world countries, but modern history is filled with what has become refereed to as a home grown terrorist, where ordinary people seem to turn against their government and kill their fellow citizens.
History is filled with examples of people in government or the military betraying their country, sometimes going on to be highly regarded by the country they helped.
Often, its about perceived advantage of switching sides. A capsuleer always has a great advantage if he switches sides.
[Edit for spelling.]
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The problem with a 'baseliner' changing factions is that we do not know how much it costs to do it.
Is it closer to someone from Ivory Coast trying to make it to America or closer to an Irishman flying to Australia?
In both cases the reasons for the travel are purely economic, in both cases most of the income (that does not go into living costs etc.) goes back to the nation of origin (the Irishman will buy a house in Ireland with his income, while the other one supports his family and tries to collect enough money to get his family to America.)
In the first case the emigration is more motivated by survival, while the second one is more about getting the perceived average, or prosperous, living standards of the culture that they left.
The original living standards of both cases are not really comparable, mostly the cause for the difference is the strength of the infrastructure that they lived in. In the first case is a third world country and the second one is a first world welfare state.
You could hypothesize that how much the percentage of the persons total wealth is used for the emigration affects the effect that the emigration will have with the core values of the individual and her financial situation.
In this case... for a capsuleer it would not do either.
Emigration is a very complex issue and actually talking to someone who has done that, or is doing it, would be my recommendation before sharing your views about it.
A filipino friend of mine (who has spent more than half of his life abroad working like a dog) put it quite nicely for me.
'Would you go and work in a gulag for twenty years if it would mean that your family would live a better life?'
My answer was 'Hell no. I hate my family.'
He just laughed and we drank more vodka.
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... Emigration is a very complex issue and actually talking to someone who has done that, or is doing it, would be my recommendation before sharing your views about it. ...
I don't know whether the above statement was aimed at my post, but I find it strange to for someone to flippantly assume that I know little about emigration.
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Posted this thread (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=336842#post336842) just an hour ago. As expected, the initial replies were "wut".
This goes back to what I've mentioned months ago but not basing characterization around faction. There have been many occurences in my time RPing that Seriphyn should join the Guristas or Angel Cartel, but from how I've characterized him, it makes little sense. It makes as much sense as going "The UK government is corrupt, join the Taliban!". Germany may have a superior economy to the UK, but I'm British, not German, so why would I join the German military? From an ethnocentric perspective, if the Gallente Federation was the only human race in EVE, and the rest were aliens, then no one (incl. Seri) would need to question why he was fighting for the Federation. It appears completely natural.
I think it may stem to the fact that, as players, we have a metaknowledge of all four factions, their flaws, their redeeming factors, and so forth. That makes it fair easier to jump ship, and whatnot.
To address the OP, I must say that I am not personally agree with this statement.
Everyday modern life is filled with examples of people emigrating to other countries to pursue what they see as personal (economic) gain in other countries.
Everyday modern life is filled with examples of people taking up arms (literally) against their own government and fellow country men. Genocide is happening in many countries, right now. You might say that these are third world countries, but modern history is filled with what has become refereed to as a home grown terrorist, where ordinary people seem to turn against their government and kill their fellow citizens.
History is filled with examples of people in government or the military betraying their country, sometimes going on to be highly regarded by the country they helped.
Often, its about perceived advantage of switching sides. A capsuleer always has a great advantage if he switches sides.
[Edit for spelling.]
I do not think that Seri meant that this is not possible or for little minorities only. But what he might have pointed out is that this tendancy concerns a big majority of the characters in Eve, which might be weird.
Not that I necessarily agree, because this is about capsuleers (and not baseliners), though. I dont know.
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I knew someone would feel like the above thing was aimed at them.
It is not, I meant it as a kind reminder that when talking about such big issues there is a lot of generalization which usually means that the fact that there are individuals, real people, involved forgotten completely.
Which kind of the pet peeve of mine, especially when talking about RP.
Very few of the characters actually seem like real people.
I do not mean that they do not have a background, nor do I mean that they are nothing but Mary Sues for the players.
I just get the feeling that the worldview that they are based on, as characters, is a mix of the players worldview and what they think is cool in the EVE setting, which makes the worldview of the character even more biased and mired in 'metaknowledge' that kind of makes me roll my eyes.
On the issue at hand.
The capsuleers are the elite of their societies.
To reach that elite they have had to jump through every cultural hoop in their society so that they would get the privilege of being a capsuleer.
To me it would be ridiculous that any society would be desperate enough to put in the resources of creating a capsuleer that would not have loyalty towards them.
Which leads me to the conclusion that the resources needed on a societal level to create a capsuleer is very low, which would suggest that they are not the elite that they are told that they are.
Or there is some great benefit to the societies involved to create capsuleers that have the chance of turning against them that we are not aware of, in this case a viable option would be that the 'free capsuleers' are the failures, the low percentage that the societies generate that are not serving the societies themselves.
Which would be kind of connected to the other possibility.
In both cases the capsuleers would be indoctrinated, and would be constantly fed with propaganda that would make them think of themselves as the elite and being free and powerful. Controlling them through manipulating their worldviews.
If I would be still a CCP fanboi and believe that they actually have a Vision for EVE as a more of a simulator of being a capsuleer than as a game, then this would support that view.
Let me elaborate.
EVE client is the UI of a capsuleer into New Eden by the capsuleer (you), all information given by CCP is a tool to convince the capsuleer (you) of a certain worldview of New Eden.
Alts and other accounts are just tools that are commonplace in the world of informorphs as ways of interacting with New Eden, there is plenty of information in the chrons to suggest this.
The capsuleers (you) spend their time out of pod socializing with other capsuleers through forums.
The capsuleers (roleplayers) play pretend games through their UI where they pretend to have different sorts of interactions (RP) in New Eden, but it really does not happen.
Some capsuleers (roleplayers) entertain themselves by making make belief stories about their meat puppets (characters) withing the 'game' (New Eden) and get emotionally involved in them.
Some capsuleers even pretend that the meat puppets are these better versions of themselves that they use to pretend play with the other meat puppets to deal with their own insecurities (Mary Sues).
Using players as part of an gaming experience like that, without them knowing it, would be a hell of a trick to pull off.
Too bad that the guys who would have been able to pull it off have left CCP.
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As someone who has attempted to emigrate -- to a nation my "homeland" was friendly with, no less -- I will say that it is incredibly difficult to meet the exacting standards the other nation often has (standards which are frequently so strict that even a native of that nation might not meet them).
The capsuleers are the elite of their societies.
To reach that elite they have had to jump through every cultural hoop in their society so that they would get the privilege of being a capsuleer.
To me it would be ridiculous that any society would be desperate enough to put in the resources of creating a capsuleer that would not have loyalty towards them.
Which leads me to the conclusion that the resources needed on a societal level to create a capsuleer is very low, which would suggest that they are not the elite that they are told that they are.
Or there is some great benefit to the societies involved to create capsuleers that have the chance of turning against them that we are not aware of, in this case a viable option would be that the 'free capsuleers' are the failures, the low percentage that the societies generate that are not serving the societies themselves.
Which would be kind of connected to the other possibility.
In both cases the capsuleers would be indoctrinated, and would be constantly fed with propaganda that would make them think of themselves as the elite and being free and powerful. Controlling them through manipulating their worldviews.
If I would be still a CCP fanboi and believe that they actually have a Vision for EVE as a more of a simulator of being a capsuleer than as a game, then this would support that view.
In the case of capsuleers having very little loyalty to the empire of their birth: due to the nature of gamers having very little attachment to the empire they start with in Eve, and the very nature of Eve being a sandbox where there are minimal restrictions and no script to follow, we need more than a little leeway. Telling others that they're not being "realistic" in terms of character loyalties is verging dangerously on "ur doin it rong".
CCP's stance on it is that the qualities that make an effective (not "good", but "effective") capsuleer are few and far between. The empires frequently are very much not picky about whom they select for the training: if the person is mentally and physically suited to deal with the training and implantation process, and won't break down at the idea of being killed and cloned, that really is all that matters. There's a certain prestige involved for every (npc) institution that offers capsuleer training, and they must surely get very pretty government subsidies for every successful graduate.
Many would-be capsuleers would possibly see the training as a route to advancement, whether social, political, economical or spiritual. Some could see it as an escape route from their current situation, no matter what that might be. There is canonical evidence that there are plenty of capsuleers who remain in service to the institutions that trained them, or at the least in service to their empire. These are to be considered NPCs, and you do see them on rare occasions in missions or listed as corporate CEOS, political figures, and naval brass.
Because of the concept of NPC capsuleers, players are thus free to be considered the "minority": the 20% or fewer of capsuleers who choose to follow their own paths, rather than what their government leaders might wish. All the indoctrination in the world won't change an individual who doesn't agree with it; they may put up with the crap simply to get what they want before saying, "Sayonara, sucka's!".
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Because of the concept of NPC capsuleers, players are thus free to be considered the "minority": the 20% or fewer of capsuleers who choose to follow their own paths, rather than what their government leaders might wish. All the indoctrination in the world won't change an individual who doesn't agree with it; they may put up with the crap simply to get what they want
before saying, "Sayonara, sucka's!".
This is pretty much the way I see it.
We're the rebellious few, the vast majority of eggers are success stories for the empires and go on to become corporate CEO's, diplomats, military brass and famous faces.
The rest of us are the ones who take the training, the investment, and then at the end of it turn around and say "well, thanks for all the fish, but I'm gonna go independent".
It's kind of like the situation we have with on the job skill based training in the UK. I'll use my self as an example :
I was hired by a very well known car manufacturer directly out of school at the age of 15. They put me through college for two years and I didn't have to pay a penny. They then put me through university to degree level. I didn't pay a penny toward tuition. The government hands out massive grants to companies and corporations to train people as apprentices and give them a trade, to secure the future of British industry.
When my 5 years was up, I was offered an employment contract as a full fledged Electrical & Robotic Engineer, rather than as a trainee. I declined and parted ways with the company to seek fresher pastures. I didn't owe them jack shit.
It was only when I went independent, moved to another company and pushed more education under my belt that wasn't covered by my apprenticeship that I started to pay my own school fees and discovered the wonders of student debt.
It's the same with our armed forces, you sign up and you're fed, clothed (for the best part) and trained for your duration of service. That's just the way it is.
I see being a capsuleer kind of like being an apprentice, but with special entry conditions. You have to be genetically sound for it, you have to have the correct level of mental aptitude and strength, and you have to be able to survive the training. You train long and hard, everything is provided and in the end you become a qualified capsuleer (which is displayed, in essence by what our rookie characters are).
From there, unless you commit to your chosen faction full time (that decision is already made for us on character creation), you're released and on your own, hence having to pay for your own skill books, hulls and everything else.
Fair enough, some eggers choose to join the militias, or work as independent contractors to Navies or Megacorporations, but that's all it is. It's a contract, a job, they're providing themselves as a tool, as a means to an end and being paid for it. It's just like being in employment.
Whereas the other vast majority of eggers, the NPC leaders we hear about, are still bound to their corporation and faction.
I mean, there's no saying that a player egger didn't serve at the Republic Military School at the same time as Malaetu Shakor, or Study at the University of Caille at the same time as Joroutte Duvolle. They just chose to take different paths, and ended up in different places in the end.
Personally, I don't see a character's race as anything more than signifying where they were born, or where their family originates from.
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I have a slightly different experience in real life that I suspect also colours my expectations in EVE: I expect that vocational training paid for by an employer comes with bonding to work for that employer for a certain period, or a pay-back clause.
Problem is, how do you stop podders leaving if they want to go? It's a bit like the incomprehensible idea of podder slaves: you can't hold them directly by force, so if you want them you use indirect approaches and sweeteners. The certificates of tribal sponsorship and such seemed to me to be part of this approach of trying to cultivate bonds with capsuleers.
Edited to correct the autocorrect of "podders" to "plodders", amusing as it was.
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It's also possible your character paid thier own way.
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But I get disappointed that most Gallentean Nationalist Roleplayers seem (in my opinion) to be playing indentikit State Fascists. (Amarrian extremists or Caldari jackboots with Gallente flags draped over their extremism basically).
We need to align the people, and to do so we need a leader who fits the season.
Let me re-cap: Malkalen economical summit ends in disaster, Gallente-Caldari war resumes, a titan arrives at Gallente Prime, threatens population of tens of billions. There are people playing magpie and ostrich style characters, but I don't see how someone trying to play a Gallente activist could just ignore these major points in the storyline.
I guess I'm saying nationalism would be easier to love it wasn't always the extremist nationalism of the provosts and black eagles jack-booting around new eden only differentiated by their uniform lapels.
I agree that the extremist nationalism is kind of an overused theme, but it's right there in the primary fiction on a high pedestal and very hard to ignore. Another reason why some people go for it is probably because it's easy to role-play, everyone knows immediately what to expect, and you can personalize it by changing the stereotype a little. One immediately has a conflict that drives the character, and you will be relevant for the opponents of one's 'nation'. It's also a position that is compatible with the game mechanics. A more 'vibrant' gallentean has to do more work on creating a fictional setting around them, and they may run into problems with PF support, lack of character motivation and relevancy.
I've been much happier with the Intaki roleplayers over all, who I perceive do bring more actual difference to their portrayal of nationalism according to their factional choice.
(Referencing particularly the anti intaki, anti syndicate, anti this that threads from these directions in last few months).
The Intaki separatist movement as represented by ILF is not really interchangeable with the Intaki culture at large as described by the primary fiction.
According to PF, most of the Intakis are connected to the Syndicate and play a major role in peddling drugs. Their traditional society is not democratic but basically follows charismatic leadership (like Silphy or the Idamas). The position of an individual in their old culture is determined by birth. It's like a mix of mafia and Tibet. So it has actually been puzzling me how can the Star Fraction be supporting in-character a patriarchal, authoritarian model where many of the basic individual rights are missing? Out-of-character it's understandable because the ILF members are nice people and generally easy to work with.
As a consequence, since the separatists say they support the traditionalist ways and the Intaki Assembly, the only way my pro-fed character can understand their "portrayal of nationalism" is that they are covering their true agenda and rallying support by saying things that people find pleasing, pretty much like a real movement would do. Out-of-character I think they're doing it right and and it is a clever and solid role-playing avenue.
Sometimes I have even said IC that to Jade's perception most Nationalists are the same and issue the same kind of argumentative dogma and core set of beliefs in roleplay that means in essence the nationalist "game" is no more differentiated than "red vs blue".
For example. Look at a core Gallentean Nationalist outfit at the moment... Serephim, Soter, Ixirus - all the rhetoric coming out seems to be "X nation is the mother and father, obey the Senate!" and I can't really see how that differs from the pro Heth people in the Caldari State or even the Pro Sarum people in the Amarrian Faction.
In my opinion, the gist of the loyalist role-play is rationalizing, sanctifying and supporting the actions of your chosen faction. I believe Seri said somewhere that sometimes he's even playing both sides of the argument. That's just what we find entertaining.
The rhetorics used in this context is almost universal even in the real world, so it's not a surprise that it appears the same for most of the factions. However, the factions are not the same. The Amarr stand for theocracy, the Caldari for megacorp-meritocracy. When the Star Fraction quit siding with the Minmatar and resisting the Amarr, and started a campaign against the supporters of their ideologically closest faction in New Eden, GIPA's previous chairman, who was a pious undercover reclaimer and now kicked out, was very pleased and declared a peace with SF because he saw this contributing positively to the ultimate Pax Amarria.
So I guess technically speaking it's true that if one just want to oppose nationalism, it doesn't matter where one goes, but if one wants to promote freedom, individual rights and so on, then these externalities make a difference. If the factions are in a war, and you are beating down the people who are ideologically closest to you, you're indirectly contributing to the defeat of your own principles. Not saying that it would be immersion breaking in any fashion, it would be more surprising if no one was acting like that.
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According to PF, most of the Intakis are connected to the Syndicate and play a major role in peddling drugs. Their traditional society is not democratic but basically follows charismatic leadership (like Silphy or the Idamas). The position of an individual in their old culture is determined by birth. It's like a mix of mafia and Tibet.
This sounds really interesting. As I plan (vaguely) to make an Intaki character I would be very interested to know more about this. Can you help with source(s)?
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According to PF, most of the Intakis are connected to the Syndicate and play a major role in peddling drugs. Their traditional society is not democratic but basically follows charismatic leadership (like Silphy or the Idamas). The position of an individual in their old culture is determined by birth. It's like a mix of mafia and Tibet.
This sounds really interesting. As I plan (vaguely) to make an Intaki character I would be very interested to know more about this. Can you help with source(s)?
According to PF, the Syndicate is where the extremists. pro-independence separatists, and criminal elements of the Intaki people end up; the vast majority of that ethnicity are resident within the Federation still and toe the line regarding drugs, contraband and other issues.
Lumping the whole of the Intaki into the Syndicate is like saying that everyone who lives in Texas owns a gun and wants to secede from the US: it's a gross generalisation based on the reputation of a few minor elements.
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This sounds really interesting. As I plan (vaguely) to make an Intaki character I would be very interested to know more about this. Can you help with source(s)?
Yes, I'll start another thread and post the best quotes I have there.
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According to PF, the Syndicate is where the extremists, pro-independence separatists, and criminal elements of the Intaki people end up; the vast majority of that ethnicity are resident within the Federation still and toe the line regarding drugs, contraband and other issues.
Lumping the whole of the Intaki into the Syndicate is like saying that everyone who lives in Texas owns a gun and wants to secede from the US: it's a gross generalisation based on the reputation of a few minor elements.
Can you show the piece of PF where the Syndicate is connected to the separatism of Placid? I don't see how their business would get any advantage out of further territorial claims, I would rather think that they are happy to covertly exert influence on Federation's affairs from their own area.
I agree that the extremists and criminals flee to the Syndicate, and as you say, separatism has to be a minor special interest group, because otherwise the Foiritan's anti-Heth storyline, Intaki disenfranchisement demonstrations and the terror after the Caldari occupation would not make sense.
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Because of the concept of NPC capsuleers, players are thus free to be considered the "minority": the 20% or fewer of capsuleers who choose to follow their own paths, rather than what their government leaders might wish.
We could, but Im not sure its necessary.
The VAST majority of players in EVE are mission runners. And what does a mission runner do? Take ISK from the various governments to do their dirty work. I think most PC capsuleers are doing exactly what the various governments more or less want them to do.
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I agree that the extremists and criminals flee to the Syndicate, and as you say, separatism has to be a minor special interest group, because otherwise the Foiritan's anti-Heth storyline, Intaki disenfranchisement demonstrations and the terror after the Caldari occupation would not make sense.
I disagree strongly with this theory.
Wanting to separate from the Federation does not automatically mean wanting to join the State. It is possible to want to secede without being pro-Heth and having serious concerns bordering on civil unrest regarding State invasion.
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean here it sounds like it's the classic mistaken arguement of secessionists secretly supporting the State which was the usual accusation of pro-Feds when I first started RPing with the ILF.
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According to PF, the Syndicate is where the extremists, pro-independence separatists, and criminal elements of the Intaki people end up; the vast majority of that ethnicity are resident within the Federation still and toe the line regarding drugs, contraband and other issues.
Lumping the whole of the Intaki into the Syndicate is like saying that everyone who lives in Texas owns a gun and wants to secede from the US: it's a gross generalisation based on the reputation of a few minor elements.
Can you show the piece of PF where the Syndicate is connected to the separatism of Placid? I don't see how their business would get any advantage out of further territorial claims, I would rather think that they are happy to covertly exert influence on Federation's affairs from their own area.
I agree that the extremists and criminals flee to the Syndicate, and as you say, separatism has to be a minor special interest group, because otherwise the Foiritan's anti-Heth storyline, Intaki disenfranchisement demonstrations and the terror after the Caldari occupation would not make sense.
It's in the chronicle about Silphy (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=aug01-01) en Diabel.
The relevant passage, emphasis mine:
The social uproar following the Caldari departure from the Federation touched the Intakis deeply and many of them sympathized and even supported the Caldari - the yoke of the cumbersome Federation bureaucracy lay as heavily on the Intakis as the Caldari. Understandably the Gallenteans were forced to deal harshly with these elements to prevent a complete fragmentation of the young Federation.
Apart from a few minor uprisings the Federation quickly subdued the Intakis. Those deemed the biggest threat to the stability of the regime were arrested and exiled. Some of these went over to the Caldari side, but the majority of the exiles, some five thousand in total, went out into the great unknown at the outskirts of Federation space. There they built themselves new homes in the form of sprawling space stations - the Federation barring them from colonizing any planets or moons.
In time as the exiles became more organized and their power increased through asteroid mining and black market trading they formed a loosely connected organization and termed it the Intaki syndicate. ...
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I agree that the extremists and criminals flee to the Syndicate, and as you say, separatism has to be a minor special interest group, because otherwise the Foiritan's anti-Heth storyline, Intaki disenfranchisement demonstrations and the terror after the Caldari occupation would not make sense.
I disagree strongly with this theory.
Wanting to separate from the Federation does not automatically mean wanting to join the State. It is possible to want to secede without being pro-Heth and having serious concerns bordering on civil unrest regarding State invasion.
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean here it sounds like it's the classic mistaken arguement of secessionists secretly supporting the State which was the usual accusation of pro-Feds when I first started RPing with the ILF.
I think part to the disconnect stems from the fact that the State (in general, Provist, Patriot, Practical, and Liberal) and its supporters support a more independent Intaki and the ILF. In general, the 3 Ps are going to support a weakening of the Federation for various reasons. The Liberals are a little less interested in a weakened Federation, but could see business opportunities in an independent Intaki.
We tend to think support is mutual, when it really is not.
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Wanting to separate from the Federation does not automatically mean wanting to join the State. It is possible to want to secede without being pro-Heth and having serious concerns bordering on civil unrest regarding State invasion.
I disagree with your suggestion that the President of the Federation was a secessionist. It's true that under the occupation there must be many kinds of sentiments in the air. The terror and unrest might have been just what Scope chose to report at the time.
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean here it sounds like it's the classic mistaken arguement of secessionists secretly supporting the State which was the usual accusation of pro-Feds when I first started RPing with the ILF.
You are misunderstanding me. All I was saying was that there was no indication that the Intakis would have been happy to leave the Federation, even though there is a connection between the Intakis and the Caldari Navy through the Mordu's legion. The claim that secessionists are in the silent majority is a very good claim for you to make in-character, but out-of-character it would kill your role-play in my opinion.
Why is there something wrong with playing a minority group? It gives you free hands to do anything and allows you to take more freedoms with regard to PF. Representing a majority and defending the status quo is often a less interesting role-playing option than being a dissenter. By choosing the latter, you associate with sexy freedom fighters, but by choosing the former you appear more like some dusty bureaucrats.
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The relevant passage, emphasis mine:
The social uproar following the Caldari departure from the Federation touched the Intakis deeply and many of them sympathized and even supported the Caldari - the yoke of the cumbersome Federation bureaucracy lay as heavily on the Intakis as the Caldari. Understandably the Gallenteans were forced to deal harshly with these elements to prevent a complete fragmentation of the young Federation.
Apart from a few minor uprisings the Federation quickly subdued the Intakis. Those deemed the biggest threat to the stability of the regime were arrested and exiled. Some of these went over to the Caldari side, but the majority of the exiles, some five thousand in total, went out into the great unknown at the outskirts of Federation space. There they built themselves new homes in the form of sprawling space stations - the Federation barring them from colonizing any planets or moons.
In time as the exiles became more organized and their power increased through asteroid mining and black market trading they formed a loosely connected organization and termed it the Intaki syndicate. ...
The color is mine. The Syndicate was formed after the Federation pushed out the criminal elements from its area.
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That was my point: the Syndicate was formed from Intaki separatists and other undesirables the Federation didn't feel like martyring. It is not synonymous with the Intaki people as a whole, and never has been.
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I disagree with your suggestion that the President of the Federation was a secessionist.
I wasn't suggesting he was. Perhaps the misunderstandings of what we're saying goes both ways :). My point was just that it has been argued in the past that to be a seperatist is to be pro-State and that this is incorrect. I was approaching the subject from a wider view than focussing on Foiritan.
Of course this isn't restricted to Intaki. Those who RP the liberal Caldari angle are automatically labelled "pro-Fed traitors" to others.
You are misunderstanding me. All I was saying was that there was no indication that the Intakis would have been happy to leave the Federation, even though there is a connection between the Intakis and the Caldari Navy through the Mordu's legion. The claim that secessionists are in the silent majority is a very good claim for you to make in-character, but out-of-character it would kill your role-play in my opinion.
Why is there something wrong with playing a minority group? It gives you free hands to do anything and allows you to take more freedoms with regard to PF. Representing a majority and defending the status quo is often a less interesting role-playing option than being a dissenter. By choosing the latter, you associate with sexy freedom fighters, but by choosing the former you appear more like some dusty bureaucrats.
Yeah we do openly admit to being the minority, both in and out of character. I think what some of us do, myself included, is raise the question of how much of a minority. After all the Vrejama Idama character is quoted as saying that the Gallente bombardment of Caldari Prime effectively hinted at what could happen to the Intaki homeworld if they pushed to leave the Federation as well. To me, and maybe it's just my own interpretation of the quote, that suggests there are more seperatists, or there were at the time, than the vocal few who speak out.
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I've always been under the impression tha the majority of Capsuleers are the PCs and very few NPC Capsuleers exist and most of them are heads I'd state.
If you've seen the movie Limitless, that is what I imagine the process of becoming a capsuleer is like. All your IQ, willpower, memory, charisma and reflexes are quadrupled at the very least. Capsuleers cannot be controlled by baselines and the baselines don't even try.
*goes off to watch Limitless on Netflix*
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My point was just that it has been argued in the past that to be a seperatist is to be pro-State and that this is incorrect. I was approaching the subject from a wider view than focussing on Foiritan.
Of course this isn't restricted to Intaki. Those who RP the liberal Caldari angle are automatically labelled "pro-Fed traitors" to others.
Well, out-of-character I see both the majority question and ILF's alleged idolatry of the State merely as propaganda statements. If the former was true, then it would cause hard-to-explain issues with the years long Gallente-Caldari war story arc. If the latter was true, then it would more or less invalidate the years long role-playing efforts related to Intaki's peaceful secession.
Yeah we do openly admit to being the minority, both in and out of character. I think what some of us do, myself included, is raise the question of how much of a minority. After all the Vrejama Idama character is quoted as saying that the Gallente bombardment of Caldari Prime effectively hinted at what could happen to the Intaki homeworld if they pushed to leave the Federation as well. To me, and maybe it's just my own interpretation of the quote, that suggests there are more seperatists, or there were at the time, than the vocal few who speak out.
The existence of the separatist movement has been canonized, no doubt about that.
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I've always been under the impression tha the majority of Capsuleers are the PCs and very few NPC Capsuleers exist and most of them are heads I'd state.
If you've seen the movie Limitless, that is what I imagine the process of becoming a capsuleer is like. All your IQ, willpower, memory, charisma and reflexes are quadrupled at the very least. Capsuleers cannot be controlled by baselines and the baselines don't even try.
While still they are undoubtedly nothing more than fancy microchips for the ships that they fly.
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There's a thing, from ages and ages ago, that's important to this -
When the Assault Frigate and HAC ships were introduced into the game, there were a couple of news articles that mentioned, among other things, that these ships were designed explicitely for capsuleers and couldn't be operated without a capsuleer at the helm.
In various missions, FW plexes, etc. we encounter many empire Navy ships that use the HAC/AF skins and function as HACs/Recon/AFs/ceptor/etc equivalents for the NPCs. I've never been sure if I should treat these as "truly loyal" capsuleers or not.
One part of me says, "There must be other loyal capsuleers besides the players - if any serious government ran a program like the capsuleer one, they'd look at the failure-to-remain-loyal-rate the players alone have and say 'shut that thing down until we find a new way to brainwash them'."
Then another part of me says, "It's been 6-7 years since T2 ships came out. Surely there's been some advances in tech to open them up to others in that time? And it's not exactly like they match the HAC/AF/whatever layouts or are that hard to kill, so you can't prove they're T2 ships..."
And round and round and round it goes. Generally I hold to the idea that there are maybe a couple hundred thousand more "empire loyal" capsuleers that aren't player characters, simply because I can't believe all 4 (5?) of the national governments would run a program that poorly for a few hundred (at best) loyal minions. It'd be like giving every Joe on Earth free nukes just so you can keep the nuke-building factories supplying your own forces running.
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There must certainly be some, the way CCP pop Live Event NPC capsuleers into existence as non-newbs.