Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Matariki Rain on 10 Jul 2011, 01:17
-
I seem to have induced some "WFT?" moments with my recent statement that the Thukker don't observe the Voluval (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2546.msg35969#msg35969).
I've reviewed my reasons for reaching this conclusion, which seem to have involved some extrapolation from the situation as it was before the Matari retcon. I hadn't updated my conclusions since learning about that. I now believe that I was wrong about Thukker and the Voluval.
It's explicitly mentioned in canon that the Thukker, while they may eschew some aspects of Matari culture such as tattooing (http://www.eveonline.com/races/minmatartribe_intro.asp), do perform the Voluval (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4086&tid=3), with a preference for doing this in space.
For purposes of the current treasure hunt, this means the Thukker are therefore inoculated or infected the same as the rest of the "tribal" Matari.
Sources:
Lastly, the Thukkers are scattered throughout the world of EVE, their tribal bindings are very loose and many of them don’t even consider themselves to be a part of a tribe any longer. These people have rejected many of the strongest traditions of the Minmatars, such as the tattooing process.
(Note that the two sentences above come after sentences about the Starkmanir and the Nefantar, and "These people" might refer to all three tribes.)
But even Gunnur admits he is concerned about maintaining his tribal identity. Many traditions developed and passed down by space-faring Thukkers are difficult or impossible in planet-bound life. For instance, many Thukker feel the Voluval ceremony, central to the personal identity of most Minmatar, should be administered only in space. Some extreme interpretations require the ritual to be performed in vac-suits, so strong is the Thukker affinity for the void.
-
Hmm...well that changes some background details I had a bit, but in a positive way. So if the Voluval is performed then what tattooing traditions aren't observed (by Thukker or all three)? I would guess tribe/clan associated tattoos but that is an educated guess at best.
-
That's interesting. You'd think that if the voluval was performed, then the tribal tattoos would sort of go along with it.
-
Well, not necessarily, with most Thukker living in caravans I don't see it as necessary to display their tribal identity through tattoos. The majority of the population on any caravan would be Thukker, which is quite unlike living planetside in terms of population diversity. My feeling is that Thukker wouldn't feel the need to express their clan or tribal identity through tattoos as being a part of a certain caravan already serves to represent that identity. There may be other cultural reasons why, but I can't think of any PF that points towards it.
-
I had assumed that there was a distinction between "the [traditional] tattooing process" (i.e., taking a pen and ink and writing stuff on peoples' skin) that the Thukker do not observe, and the Voluval, which is a mystical and interpretive ritual far, far beyond simply inking someone up.
-
I had assumed that there was a distinction between "the [traditional] tattooing process" (i.e., taking a pen and ink and writing stuff on peoples' skin) that the Thukker do not observe, and the Voluval, which is a mystical and interpretive ritual far, far beyond simply inking someone up.
well yeah.
-
I had assumed that there was a distinction between "the [traditional] tattooing process" (i.e., taking a pen and ink and writing stuff on peoples' skin) that the Thukker do not observe, and the Voluval, which is a mystical and interpretive ritual far, far beyond simply inking someone up.
Indeed, however at one point in time it seemed that (a) the Thukker had rejected many of the cultural trappings of the Minmatar, at least up to and including tattooing (which is a big deal), and (b) the extent of the Amarrian occupation meant there was real doubt about whether there were any free Vherokior shamans to travel with the Thukker caravans and perform the ritual (or, indeed, how and where the Voluval might have survived at all given the Amarrian hostility to and suppression of the other visible markings of Minmatar culture). If the Thukker could do without tattooing and didn't have access to Vherokior shamans, maybe they did without the Voluval as well? We do, however, have a news item explicitly saying they (currently) observe it (although some may find it too expensive to do it properly), which I'd overlooked.
I'm still a bit "so tell us about the survival of this Voluval tradition, because so far it doesn't make much sense", but with the retcon meaning there were free Matari I'm assuming they managed to keep the Voluval going somehow. I just don't know why the Amarrian edict against tattooing broke the tattooing tradition, then, unless the free non-Thukker Matari were in survival circumstances which meant they kept the rudiments of the tradition but lost the artistry.
This is a significant patch of uncertainty and until CCP communicates some more about it it's on the list of topics to avoid. We can work with contemporary Voluval ceremonies and the exploration/re-assertion of tattoo artistry, but communication will largely break down if anyone tries to discuss the history of either culturally-significant matter.
-
Minmatar use tattoos in several different ways for several different purposes. On a brief look I could find the following concrete examples.
Tattoo chronicle, Ray of Matar:
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=20-09-10
http://www.eveonline.com/races/rayofmatar/?pp=background,stories
- A temporary naming tattoo, identifying a child and what clan he comes from
- Voluval mark
- Permanent naming mark, identifies also clan and tribe, on the face
- Rank in clan and occupation, on the shoulders
- Occupation (presumably also former occupations)
- Commemorating events of significance and personal achievements
a Minmatar’s tattoos proclaim who he is, where he came from, what he does, where he has been and what he has experienced. They represent a Minmatar's identity as well as his story.
War tattoos chronicle:
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=mar04
- War tattoos, representing war paint
News item in the Nakugard bombings news arc:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1983&tid=3
- Outcast tattoos, used at least by the Krusual
Minmatar tribes basic intro:
http://www.eveonline.com/races/minmatarTribe_intro.asp
- The Sebiestors favor simple tattoo forms – straight lines and clean patterns, but flowing, symbolic signs are not unheard of.
- The Krusual tribe uses flowing, often geometric tattoo motifs, seldom cluttered, always orderly and pleasing the eye.
Curiously, I did not find a single explicit mention of Minmatar using purely decorative tattoos. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, although this does raise some thoughts regarding the forms Minmatar tattoo high artistry might take.
-
Separating speculation into a separate post.
I assume what kind of tattooing traditions remain for each Thukker caravan, clan or family would be fairly variable - some would not tattoo at all, and others almost as much as their cousins in other tribes.
For those Thukker that do not observe all tattooing traditions, but do observe some, there are multiple of different ways of tattooing they can drop.
My personal guess would be that a tattooing tradition in the process of decline and slowly falling into disuse would first lose elements of artistry, creativity and spontaneity. Tattoo items of tradition ("always been done this way") would perhaps be kept slightly longer, although eventually the latter group would also be dropped.
So as examples: Maybe people would first stop getting unique tattoos designed for themselves in order to commemorate events of personal importance? Or new occupations would no longer be designed new and unique tattoos to identify people who work in the field, and their rank and skill within that occupation? Perhaps new caravans simply copy the marks of their parent caravan instead of creating new identifications of their own?
-
Curiously, I did not find a single explicit mention of Minmatar using purely decorative tattoos. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, although this does raise some thoughts regarding the forms Minmatar tattoo high artistry might take.
In that context I'll point to a line in the Tattoos chronicle (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=20-09-10):
A Minmatar cannot bestow upon herself just any tattoo. In some cases she may be able to influence styling and shape, but she cannot add a tattoo without having first earned the right. Inking a tattoo upon yourself without permission is considered a grave crime and offenders are subject to severe judicial punishment.
This suggests to me that Matari don't actually use "purely decorative" tattoos, since any tattoo to which you've earned the right is no longer "purely" decorative.
-
I assume what kind of tattooing traditions remain for each Thukker caravan, clan or family would be fairly variable - some would not tattoo at all, and others almost as much as their cousins in other tribes.
Why do you assume this? Do you have anything suggesting that the Thukker tattoo at all?
The phrasing of the statement here is awkward, so I'll quote it in full:
The Minmatar society is very much based on tribal society. There are seven major tribes or clans, Sebiestor, Krusual, Brutor, Vherokior, Nefantar, Thukker and Starkmanir.
Of the seven clans, four make up the Minmatar Republic, Sebiestor, Krusual, Brutor and Vherokior. The Starkmanir tribe was almost totally destroyed by the Amarrians after a crushed rebellion four centuries ago, only a handful remain as slaves within the Amarr Empire. The Nefantars collaborated with the Amarrians during the latter control of the Minmatars. They were driven out alongside the Amarrians during the Minmatar Rebellion and today make up what’s commonly known as the Ammatars. Lastly, the Thukkers are scattered throughout the world of EVE, their tribal bindings are very loose and many of them don’t even consider themselves to be a part of a tribe any longer. These people have rejected many of the strongest traditions of the Minmatars, such as the tattooing process.
The key question is whether "These people" relates to all the three tribes mentioned, only to the Thukker, or only to those of the Thukker who don't consider themselves to be a part of a tribe any longer. I can't tell for sure. The use of "tribes" and "clans" interchangeably, and the use of "the latter control" (at a later period in time) for what I'm guessing is meant to be "the latter's control" (Amarrian control), make this passage not one I really want to rely on too much.
All three interpretations would have the not-very-Thukker-feeling Thukker not tattooing. I assume the Nefantar didn't tattoo, but both rejected it as too Matari and accepted the Amarrian edict against it. When this was written we assumed the Starkmanir were lost and not exactly in a position to hold on to anything. I think it's likely the "These people" bridges the gap and includes Thukker-feeling Thukker.
-
"It's a big cluster."
-
"It's a big cluster."
It is.
Is that relevant to this thread?
-
Yes, actually, that's the point. It's totally feasible that not all Thukker do things the same way, and so even a broad statement about whether or not they use tattoos will inevitably have exceptions.
-
That's not quite the point here. It's to find out what the Thukker in general do. If we're to go 'it's a big cluster' at everything, then there's never any point in any kind of generalized PF on races, tribes, bloodlines and cultures 'because it's feasible that some of them wear feather dusters and a bottle up their ass on a regular basis'. Exceptions aren't the point here.
-
A request for evidence -- particularly from Isobel, who is well-armed for any battle of wits and sources -- is not a claim that someone is doing it wrong.
With the PF we've got, though, we've established that individual Matari (who are living as Matari) can't just choose to take tattoos, and you have to squint fairly hard at the statement about the Thukker to read it as saying that there are Thukker communities which embrace tattooing and will therefore be in a position to give members the appropriate approval to get inked.
And yet Isobel has said:
I assume what kind of tattooing traditions remain for each Thukker caravan, clan or family would be fairly variable - some would not tattoo at all, and others almost as much as their cousins in other tribes.
This seems to go against the statement that "These people have rejected many of the strongest traditions of the Minmatars, such as the tattooing process."
I'm curious about whether Isobel has another source which supports Thukker tattooing (she's often a good source for such things), whether she's reading the statement about rejecting the tattooing process differently to me (which I've said above is possible, although I myself wouldn't build too much on that reading without a clarification by CCP of a paragraph that's not very clearly worded and seems to go the other way), or whether there's some other reason for taking input which says -- most likely -- that Thukker don't tattoo and coming up with output which says that there would be a range from "not at all" to "almost as much as their cousins in other tribes".
Of course there will probably be people from Thukker backgrounds with tattoos. Some will likely live in the Federation where people will defend their right to take any ink they fancy. Some will have been adopted across tribes (PF suggests that's a last resort but says it's possible). Some will have (scandalously!) unauthorised tattoos but will mix in parts of Minmatar society where no one knows to call them on them. Some might work with Angels or other groups outside Matari ways, where ink might have quite different meanings.
But if I meet someone who claims to be Thukker, living as a Matari, and bearing tattoos, at the moment that's going to have me wondering what's going on there. That has the potential to go anywhere from a really interesting personal story to "they're delusional" or "they're trying to pass as something they're not".
And if I write about Mata's time visiting Thukker caravans to learn about their dances, I can mention how strange it is to be among unmarked Matari who are still Matari, and maybe how people flirted with her differently or not at all because it was immediately obvious from her marks that she was an outsider there. I like that sort of thing, but it doesn't work so well when everyone can do anything. There's a lot that we can plausibly say is open to anyone: why apply that also to the things where the evidence suggests otherwise, thus blurring some really interesting distinctions?
-
What you bolded seems to indicate that the Thukkers don't have a set of customs that they follow in general, but rather have rejected even the notion of belonging to a tribe.
Ergo: it's a big cluster. Of course this doesn't apply to all aspects of worldbuilding, and I wouldn't suggest otherwise. But in analyzing the tattoo traditions of a tribe that mostly eschews the concept of tribal traditions, it applies quite well.
-
I assume what kind of tattooing traditions remain for each Thukker caravan, clan or family would be fairly variable - some would not tattoo at all, and others almost as much as their cousins in other tribes.
Why do you assume this? Do you have anything suggesting that the Thukker tattoo at all?
The phrasing of the statement here is awkward, so I'll quote it in full:
The Minmatar society is very much based on tribal society. There are seven major tribes or clans, Sebiestor, Krusual, Brutor, Vherokior, Nefantar, Thukker and Starkmanir.
Of the seven clans, four make up the Minmatar Republic, Sebiestor, Krusual, Brutor and Vherokior. The Starkmanir tribe was almost totally destroyed by the Amarrians after a crushed rebellion four centuries ago, only a handful remain as slaves within the Amarr Empire. The Nefantars collaborated with the Amarrians during the latter control of the Minmatars. They were driven out alongside the Amarrians during the Minmatar Rebellion and today make up what’s commonly known as the Ammatars. Lastly, the Thukkers are scattered throughout the world of EVE, their tribal bindings are very loose and many of them don’t even consider themselves to be a part of a tribe any longer. These people have rejected many of the strongest traditions of the Minmatars, such as the tattooing process.
I do not have any PF beyond the part you quoted - which I quite agree is ambiguous - backing this assumption up. (That was why it was in the speculation post. ;) )
From what you wrote, I believe the likeliest explanation is that my reading of the passage is slightly different from yours. I will try to explain the differences below, my apologies if I at some point have misunderstood your position.
Requoted, to try to clarify my emphasis in reading. Bolding and stuff inside square brackets "[]" are my additions.
Of the seven clans, four make up the Minmatar Republic, Sebiestor, Krusual, Brutor and Vherokior. The Starkmanir tribe was almost totally destroyed by the Amarrians after a crushed rebellion four centuries ago, only a handful remain as slaves within the Amarr Empire. The Nefantars collaborated with the Amarrians during the latter control of the Minmatars. They were driven out alongside the Amarrians during the Minmatar Rebellion and today make up what’s commonly known as the Ammatars. Lastly, the Thukkers are scattered throughout the world of EVE, their tribal bindings are very loose and many of them don’t even consider themselves to be a part of a tribe any longer. These people [who do not consider themselves to be part of a tribe any longer] have rejected many of the strongest traditions of the Minmatars, such as the tattooing process.
I read "many of them" to mean a significant portion of Thukker belong to both "loose tribal bindings" and "don't consider themselves to be part of a tribe" groups.
I speculated that among the "loose tribal bindings" group there would be quite a bit of variability of traditions general to Minmatar/Thukker discarded, kept or adjusted between/inside caravans and family groups. (I theorize caravans and family groups might have taken on some of the social roles of tribes/clans for the Thukker in this group) I further speculated this variability would extend to tattooing traditions also, especially given that Minmatar are not the only ethnicity in Eve practicing tattooing.
To repeat, I quite agree the passage (particularly the last sentence) can be interpreted in different ways, including to read that none of the three clans (Starkmanir, Nefantar, Thukker) that were not part of the formation of the Republic practices tattooing.
I simply read it this way, and my interpretation felt appropriate to me given the fiercely independent nature of the Thukker.
-
I read "many of them" to mean a significant portion of Thukker belong to both "loose tribal bindings" and "don't consider themselves to be part of a tribe" groups.
I speculated that among the "loose tribal bindings" group there would be quite a bit of variability of traditions general to Minmatar/Thukker discarded, kept or adjusted between/inside caravans and family groups. (I theorize caravans and family groups might have taken on some of the social roles of tribes/clans for the Thukker in this group) I further speculated this variability would extend to tattooing traditions also, especially given that Minmatar are not the only ethnicity in Eve practicing tattooing.
To repeat, I quite agree the passage (particularly the last sentence) can be interpreted in different ways, including to read that none of the three clans (Starkmanir, Nefantar, Thukker) that were not part of the formation of the Republic practices tattooing.
I simply read it this way, and my interpretation felt appropriate to me given the fiercely independent nature of the Thukker.
Thank you, Isobel. Yes, that clarifies the difference in readings, and yes, your reading is quite possible. (I'd love it if this passage were edited for clarity. :) )
-
I feel that the way Isabel read it is the way I would interpret it.
Thukkers are widely spread, some don't even feel they are part of the Thukker tribe as a whole, and those people quite possibly have discarded traditions. It takes a strong belief in independence to reject one-self from ones tribe and by rejecting traditions they make that separation even greater.
Interesting discussion. :)