Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Rao Kappa on 28 Jun 2011, 11:29
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So, I thought I'd start off my tour on your forums with the can of worms known as metagaming.
Now, being new to the RP scene in EvE, I'm curious as to what qualifies as 'metagaming' in a game when the meta aspect of it is such a sometimes integral part of the process?
How much could one possibly know about another they've never met right off the bat? Due to the technology, would they know names, corp history, pilot's license length, such things that would, in some other games, qualify as metagaming without RP'ing a proper setup to the acuiring of the info.
Already, I may have bumped into a few situations where metagmaing was present from one point of view, but not correct in the assumption in regards to EvE.
So, as I'm trying to find my footing in the game, please, tell me what you consider 'metagmaing?'
Thanks for your help.
Rao
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Eh, the EVE RP community has always struggled with a coherent consensus. Why not provide an example that you might think is dubious? :)
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Due to the technology, would they know names, corp history, pilot's license length, such things that would, in some other games, qualify as metagaming without RP'ing a proper setup to the acuiring of the info.
Yes, yes, and yes. Most players will know whatever they can find out about you by doing a show info on your character. So corp history and anything in the public bio(if you filled it out with character info) would probably be easily available, and usually treated as IC information.
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Depending on the channel, I think it is sometimes appropriate to know the names (and if you want it, personal information) of other pilots. For channels where players are located in a physical place, things should obviously be different.
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As said earlier, any information available when you hit 'show info' on a pilot is considered fair game as long as you're in a position where you can look it up. For example, in a comms channel, it makes sense that your character would know all of that just moments after meeting someone. On the other hand, if you're having coffee and have just met someone, unless you do something to make note of looking up that info (glancing at a datapad, having an implant interface with galnet), you wouldn't know.
In general, given the much more greivous example of metagaming that we face in EVE RP, something like that is fairly mild and usually overlooked.
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Where I start to see fuzzier is when two pilots walk into a channel representing a physical place, and look at each other without either introducing each other.
Can we (IC, not ingame) take an image of a capsuleer's face and query an image database to find a match? How quickly would this come back? Given the limitations on the character creator, would there be potential for a false positive?
While the above situation is theoretical, here's one I actually did run into: Esna walks into a bar, and someone introduces themself to him using their last name. Later, Esna decides he's curious about them - he decides to look them up. Now, given that the ingame character search function in People and Places will not give me that particular character based on last name alone, could we say that there exists an ingame CONCORD database which Esna could use to look up the name, then examine all the profiles until he finds the one he thinks he met?
Personally, I lean towards a "yes" on the latter case more so than on the former.
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I kind of don't like it when people automatically know these things when meeting face to face. It takes a lot of the mystery out of those first few moments of conversation.
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Sometimes, public info is a good lead-in for conversation. If the person has been in the news lately, or their corporation has a reputation, these can be great ways to build dialogue, but personally I enjoy learning about people from talking rather than show info or pilot profiles.
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I've always assumed that anything you can acquire from in-game character info (i.e.: "Show Info" on the character) is immediately available to anyone. We're plugged in people, so there's no reason to assume that we're not "seeing" an augmented reality that includes this sort of information.
As far as two people walking into a room and knowing who each other is, that's not too far off, either. Considering our optic nerves being wired up to accept sensory information from our spaceships, I'd imagine we'd "see" things similarly to the way our players see them in MMOs like EQ2 - when I look at Graelyn, I might see floating text with his name, that sort of thing.
Going further, I've also always assumed that anything you can find on the internet related to a character (excepting, of course, obviously non-public information like private diary blogs) is also available to anyone who takes the time to research someone.
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There's some information I won't share if I find it on a forum like this or one I probably shouldn't have access to, as I consider it metagaming. It's not that I take a firm stand against metagaming, it's more along the lines I'd have to consider throttling myself if I ever took EVE so seriously as to use meta information to my advantage on a regular basis. So by practice, I will not do it.
However, my industrial activities do overlap with some areas I engage in other activities. Passive intelligence gathered while I haul and do PI, things I could see winding up on an opsec report, I'll gladly share with a corp I am in. The character I play would have access to low level confidential material such as that, so I use it in my gameplay. It's a bit of metagaming, but a far cry from active spying.
EDIT: But to add to this area of metagaming in the OP, I side with anything you can gather in-game if fair knowledge and not metagaming. As far as the internet, I refer to information I learn there as either stuff I should ignore or unverified intel unless it is an in-character site. Cyberstalking is bad.
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Since the introduction of CQ Torfi has been pretty about the idea that our "capsuleer interface" (aka the side- and stationbar) are useable even when out of pod.
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Since the introduction of CQ Torfi has been pretty about the idea that our "capsuleer interface" (aka the side- and stationbar) are useable even when out of pod.
Glad this is how it is, I've always thought it to be like that. I'm wondering about the specifics of it though, do we carry a datapad with us everywhere (see lots of people, including myself, use this) or would it go straight through our implants? I'm actually thinking the latter may be more the reality. I don't think the former is bad RP per se though.
As for people who ask, I assume they are just too lazy, or like to socialize the old-fashioned way.
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Since the introduction of CQ Torfi has been pretty about the idea that our "capsuleer interface" (aka the side- and stationbar) are useable even when out of pod.
Glad this is how it is, I've always thought it to be like that. I'm wondering about the specifics of it though, do we carry a datapad with us everywhere (see lots of people, including myself, use this) or would it go straight through our implants? I'm actually thinking the latter may be more the reality. I don't think the former is bad RP per se though.
As for people who ask, I assume they are just too lazy, or like to socialize the old-fashioned way.
I'm guilty of the datapad crutch most of the time, but I imagine it's available via our implants.
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I'm guilty of the datapad crutch most of the time, but I imagine it's available via our implants.
You may want signal isolation from your implants for either safety or security.
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I just assume that the implants have at least limited wireless ability. If we don't have Space WiFi, then I don't know why I'd even want to live there. ;)
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Hi, my name is Saxon and I'm a metagamer.
Actually, I try to keep my metagaming to a minimum, but I have several "partners in crime" and from time to time we hash out some things to give some structure and context to our role playing.
I see it more as defining the playing field and filling in some gaps in PF so that the role play can take place.
Case in Point: Seri, Damar and I were having some really good RP going and then things started to reach an impasse due to differing interpretations of existing PF and a general lack of relevant PF to begin with.
Seri and I stepped out of character for a moment, discussed the PF, kicked around some ideas and agreed to bring a third party to come up with a compromise of sorts so we could get back to the fun.
So I guess that makes me a metagamer. But truth be told, since I started metagaming and stopped waiting for CCP to answer all my questions I've enjoyed my EVE RP much more.
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Hi, my name is Saxon and I'm a metagamer.
Actually, I try to keep my metagaming to a minimum, but I have several "partners in crime" and from time to time we hash out some things to give some structure and context to our role playing.
I see it more as defining the playing field and filling in some gaps in PF so that the role play can take place.
Case in Point: Seri, Damar and I were having some really good RP going and then things started to reach an impasse due to differing interpretations of existing PF and a general lack of relevant PF to begin with.
Seri and I stepped out of character for a moment, discussed the PF, kicked around some ideas and agreed to bring a third party to come up with a compromise of sorts so we could get back to the fun.
So I guess that makes me a metagamer. But truth be told, since I started metagaming and stopped waiting for CCP to answer all my questions I've enjoyed my EVE RP much more.
I personally don't define that as metagaming. RP is like writing to me, and it's hard to write about something when you have no background knowledge of it, so I find OOC discussions like that appropriate.
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Hi, my name is Saxon and I'm a metagamer.
Actually, I try to keep my metagaming to a minimum, but I have several "partners in crime" and from time to time we hash out some things to give some structure and context to our role playing.
I see it more as defining the playing field and filling in some gaps in PF so that the role play can take place.
Case in Point: Seri, Damar and I were having some really good RP going and then things started to reach an impasse due to differing interpretations of existing PF and a general lack of relevant PF to begin with.
Seri and I stepped out of character for a moment, discussed the PF, kicked around some ideas and agreed to bring a third party to come up with a compromise of sorts so we could get back to the fun.
So I guess that makes me a metagamer. But truth be told, since I started metagaming and stopped waiting for CCP to answer all my questions I've enjoyed my EVE RP much more.
I personally don't define that as metagaming. RP is like writing to me, and it's hard to write about something when you have no background knowledge of it, so I find OOC discussions like that appropriate.
It still counts as metagaming, but in this case, due to the lack of a set-in-stone background or PF base and in the absence of a DM to say 'this is how it is', it's the sort of metagaming that is necessary and actually enhances RP that might otherwise fall apart.
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I've often discussed questions of background and interpretation of PF OOC - I agree it can be very necessary for everyone to enjoy the RP.
To go back to the OP, I assume that most if not all pilots have access to their NEOCOM data whether in pod or not, either through space-iPhone or an implant.
As for encountering situations that may not be metagaming in the Eve context, you'll probably get more useful answers with more specifics, phrased as a hypothetical if you aren't comfortable discussing the precise incidents.
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It still counts as metagaming, but in this case, due to the lack of a set-in-stone background or PF base and in the absence of a DM to say 'this is how it is', it's the sort of metagaming that is necessary and actually enhances RP that might otherwise fall apart.
This 100%. In my opinion, when there are OOC issues between the players, metagaming makes much more sense than avoiding interactions altogether or trying to keep the discussion IC. The first option is detrimental to the community and leaves the questions unaddressed, and the latter method just often seems to make things more unclear, as long as one doesn't break character.
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Not that I'm in a position to cause any significant damage by metagaming (right now :twisted:), but I will, in any circumstance presented to me, categorically refuse to abandon any game-legal advantage at my disposal if it gives me an edge over an opponent. I would not expect my enemies to do any different.
A well-respected gentleman and veteran of EVE once told me that there are two types of battles in EVE - the honourable ones, and the ones you win.
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Not that I'm in a position to cause any significant damage by metagaming (right now :twisted:), but I will, in any circumstance presented to me, categorically refuse to abandon any game-legal advantage at my disposal if it gives me an edge over an opponent. I would not expect my enemies to do any different.
A well-respected gentleman and veteran of EVE once told me that there are two types of battles in EVE - the honourable ones, and the ones you win.
During most of my EVE-time, those two have been very much one and the same.
Then again, my definition of honor might be somewhat different than then one used by others.
I'm guessing more than one toon under one's control constitute meta-gaming to most here.
Ergo; Hi, my name is BloodBird, and I'm a meta-gamer as well.
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Case in Point: Seri, Damar and I were having some really good RP going and then things started to reach an impasse due to differing interpretations of existing PF and a general lack of relevant PF to begin with.
Seri and I stepped out of character for a moment, discussed the PF, kicked around some ideas and agreed to bring a third party to come up with a compromise of sorts so we could get back to the fun.
From my understanding, this is not necessarily metagaming. Going OOC to come up with an understanding of what "is" is fine.
Metagaming to me, or at least the major crime of it, is your character having knowledge of things they could not possibly know in the game world. A classic EVE case would be knowledge of The Broker or knowing Tibus Heth has a serious disease.
The small bit of metagaming I see in this community is when characters of all backgrounds, roles, and places in the universe flock to an area because there is an opportunity to roleplay. It's completely understandable, but at times worthy of eye-rolling.
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From my understanding, this is not necessarily metagaming. Going OOC to come up with an understanding of what "is" is fine.
Metagaming to me, or at least the major crime of it, is your character having knowledge of things they could not possibly know in the game world. A classic EVE case would be knowledge of The Broker or knowing Tibus Heth has a serious disease.
The small bit of metagaming I see in this community is when characters of all backgrounds, roles, and places in the universe flock to an area because there is an opportunity to roleplay. It's completely understandable, but at times worthy of eye-rolling.
I agree with both points.
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Agreed, that the "show info" stuff are things a pilot can find out about another pretty quickly.
Though if you've only just met them, you should take a second to "/me looks at a datapad; hold a hand to his ear; turns to his drone for a second; etc.
One daner is blogs. I keep a note on mine that any knowledge found therin is OOC knowledge and I think this is true for many of the ones I regularly read. I haven't had more than one instance of someone mentioning stuff that was only on the blog, but the other player was cool about it and we did a few second's "rewind' in our conversation. So if you have a blog, plase make a not somewhere what parts are IC and what parts are OOC.
:D
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From my understanding, this is not necessarily metagaming. Going OOC to come up with an understanding of what "is" is fine.
Metagaming to me, or at least the major crime of it, is your character having knowledge of things they could not possibly know in the game world. A classic EVE case would be knowledge of The Broker or knowing Tibus Heth has a serious disease.
The small bit of metagaming I see in this community is when characters of all backgrounds, roles, and places in the universe flock to an area because there is an opportunity to roleplay. It's completely understandable, but at times worthy of eye-rolling.
I agree with both points.
I agree too. Though with extreme moderation with the second point. Does not annoy me when the characters in question are all but politically oriented (more like the average being living his life you find here and there). Which is often the case.