Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Invelious on 24 Jun 2011, 10:02
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Wondering if there are any truely amarr loyal and traditional conservatives out there, except for us PIE's tbh...
Yes, Invelious is played as one. But, there is a difference in view, wherein I will kill anything that doesn't declare its loyalty to the Empire. If you dont support Amarr, you dont belong in our borders. Invelious views foreigners as a stain on Amarr, and its citizens.
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Depends on how you define conservative - Invelious's distaste for foreigners is a fairly extreme (and impressive) example. Much of the liberal/conservative distinction these days seems to revolve around the slavery debate (I think) - so what would a liberal or conservative look like aside from that issue? Is there any form of house loyalty or infighting within the Amarr community? What political issues are there outside of slavery? The legitimacy of the Empress? Or have people stopped caring about that?
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Godflesh doctrine - challenges the legitimacy of the Empress. Yonis Ardishapur is possibly the only one who managed to make a public statement about it without trouble.
Slavery doctrines - mentioned in the amarr epic arc. People say Vitoc is outdated. They also oppose the release of slaves that the Empress did recently.
Khanid secession/unity - Grumblings about accepting King Khanid back as if nothing happened.
Udorians - House Tash-Murkon is Udorian, which some murmur about.
several more political issues.
Thing is, though, that with the kind of material put out recently, and in the past too, that it is painted that Amarrians generally don't argue about politics in public.
contrast:
Quafe and Fedmart have a spat, various pro/anti Gallente groups appear and argue about things in public.
House Kador engages in open war against House Kor-Azor, Amarrians simply say "Indeed."
That's how they're painted anyway.
With other issues though, people seem to have kind of stopped caring, because there's no way to progress with them. No news, no chronicles, means that there's not a lot to work with, beyond saying "I think this" "I disagree" "Quite."
Ultra Conservative:
Frowns at the Empress's rise to power, frowns at King Khanid, frowns at Tash-Murkon, frowns at this appeasement of the heathen foreigners.
Ultra Liberal:
Accepts the Empress as Empress, embraces King Khanid, welcomes Tash-Murkon, is happy at the age of slavery ending.
Much in between.
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Depends on how you define conservative - Invelious's distaste for foreigners is a fairly extreme (and impressive) example. Much of the liberal/conservative distinction these days seems to revolve around the slavery debate (I think) - so what would a liberal or conservative look like aside from that issue? Is there any form of house loyalty or infighting within the Amarr community? What political issues are there outside of slavery? The legitimacy of the Empress? Or have people stopped caring about that?
Actually slavery is just a fairly minor part of the deepest divide between nowadays ultra liberals and the traditional conservatives (the amarr bloc).
The true divide is the question of the supremacy that is inherent in the true believers, and especially the right of the True Amarr to rule and lead.
Your comments about Jamyl pretty much show off how sadly limited most peoples views are nowadays. It seems to me that it all boils down to "omg slavery" and "omg Jamyl is cloned" for most people.
However, the scriptures outright state that the true amarr, the first believers, are destined to rule over everyone else, to lead the non-believers to God etc. This view has been backed since ever at least I can remember - and I only joined very recently in the big picture.
The distaste for foreigners / xenophobia comes, in my experience, mostly from the simple fact that most True Amarr, and in kind the Khanid and Ni-Kunni, have a huge superiority complex centered around their heritage. As many chronicles and news articles have pointed out the amarr usualy view events in a more long term way than, say, for example the federation or the republic. The simple fact that the leaders of the empire live for multiple centuries pretty much cements that impression, such a long lifespan will certainly behoove you to plan ahead.
Now, back on topic.
The contemporary ultra liberals are very happy to mingle with non-amarrians and take on their customs, be that just for show or for real.
While this strikes me personally as quite uncharacteristic of the amarrians described in the PF I'll deal with what I see, and if people want to be their own special snow flakes they can be my guest, I'll be happy to include them in my RP.
It is a (sad?) fact that the old school liberal/conservative line has been dragged way to the left end of the spectrum.
PIE used to be considered dangerously liberal by many, and while we may have slightly edged more to the right wing we are still pretty Heideranian. Now, Kotmc for example, is very happy to openly flaunt their ultra liberal convictions, their members frequently speak their very mind in public, sometimes even without, or against, the will of their superiors. This goes very much against the trend that has been established, by both CCP and the amarr bloc, ever since the servers went life - and in some cases even before that.
Many people have stopped to care about the intra-amarrian politics when FW came along, something we had predicted beforehand.
There still are a lot of issues on the table, but, at least in the conservative circles, such internal debates are obviously kept private and behind closed doors. This is, by the way, again typical for the 08/15 PF amarrian, who will happily stick a knife in his bosses back, but wouldn't dare talk down to him anywhere.
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Not all KotMC are like that, Laerise.
Raze is a member of KotMC and abhors public displays of disunity and dissension between any one in the Empire (regardless of race or corporation). He has also always spoken with respect toward his fellow Amarrians (even if he disagrees with them) and when he does voice a disagreement or argument, it is always in a respectful, constructive way.
There's only been like two examples of him losing his cool, one was in public and wasn't with an Amarrian and the other was in private - where it should be.
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Godflesh doctrine - challenges the legitimacy of the Empress. Yonis Ardishapur is possibly the only one who managed to make a public statement about it without trouble.
This would be heresy. If the theology council declares Jamyl I. the rightful empress then it is so and she was reborn in a miraculous way. If the theology council had done wrong the speakers of truth would have interceded. I know it seems outrageous, and for us it certainly feels that way, but this is the reality in a theocracy. If someone is elected pope and the cardinals do not speak out against him even though he is a woman he is still a pope for all intents and purposes - to deny that would be to break with the orthodoxy of the church at that point in time.
Thing is, though, that with the kind of material put out recently, and in the past too, that it is painted that Amarrians generally don't argue about politics in public.
This very much. The amarr started out as an insular, xenophobic culture and they still pretty much are. No matter how much you squabble behind closed doors, you better present a united front to everyone else.
With other issues though, people seem to have kind of stopped caring, because there's no way to progress with them. No news, no chronicles, means that there's not a lot to work with, beyond saying "I think this" "I disagree" "Quite."
The same could be sad for the minmatar RP as well though. They seemed to have a very nice thing going with the EM vs U'K divide during the haydays before Maleatu Shakor became the minmatar Stalin and said "njet". :(
Ultra Conservative:
Frowns at the Empress's rise to power, frowns at King Khanid, frowns at Tash-Murkon, frowns at this appeasement of the heathen foreigners.
Ultra Liberal:
Accepts the Empress as Empress, embraces King Khanid, welcomes Tash-Murkon, is happy at the age of slavery ending.
Much in between.
I agree, mostly, although I would like to add that you forgot about the open armed posture of the ultra liberals concerning foreign influences.
Not all KotMC are like that, Laerise.
Raze is a member of KotMC and abhors public displays of disunity and dissension between any one in the Empire (regardless of race or corporation). He has also always spoken with respect toward his fellow Amarrians (even if he disagrees with them) and when he does voice a disagreement or argument, it is always in a respectful, constructive way.
There's only been like two examples of him losing his cool, one was in public and wasn't with an Amarrian and the other was in private - where it should be.
Maybe not, but it is certainly the way your leadership portraits your corp to the outside, no offense intended.
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:hugs thread:
Interesting stuff.
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I assume from an RP standpoint that the Amarr block looked a bit different before FW. I've only been playing since a little before Tyrannis, so I have no knowledge of what things were like prior.
I can understand how FW and the sudden emergence on an enemy would help to discourage internal conflict - "We can't fight each other, the Minmatar are attacking!"
Of course, then there was that brief bit a while ago when the Amarr militia started shooting each other. I really wish that had evolved into a proper civil war rather than petering out (or being taken out of public view). It simply would have made things much more interesting.
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Godflesh doctrine - challenges the legitimacy of the Empress. Yonis Ardishapur is possibly the only one who managed to make a public statement about it without trouble.
This would be heresy. If the theology council declares Jamyl I. the rightful empress then it is so and she was reborn in a miraculous way. If the theology council had done wrong the speakers of truth would have interceded. I know it seems outrageous, and for us it certainly feels that way, but this is the reality in a theocracy. If someone is elected pope and the cardinals do not speak out against him even though he is a woman he is still a pope for all intents and purposes - to deny that would be to break with the orthodoxy of the church at that point in time.
Here's an article (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2213&tid=4) about what the Theology Council said at the time.
Acceding to the other Heirs' requests to be withdrawn from consideration, and accepting the legitimacy of Sarum's claim, it acknowledged that as the sole remaining candidate the only acceptable course of action was to declare her Empress-elect and proceed with the coronation. It declined to pass any comment on the circumstances of Sarum's return, stating simply that "there is no acceptable explanation of [her return] available to us at this time".
Ardishapur dedicating the cathedral to the obscure saint (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2490&tid=8) who came up with Godflesh doctrine, is a statement along the lines of "The Empress is the Empress, but I am not required to like her."
Which is more to reinforce the characterisation about not disagreeing in open.
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Yep, the cathedral naming is a very nice touch, and what I'd call typically amarrian :D
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I would think Mitty falls under the category of Conservative Amarr. I try to play her as she's totally drank the cool-aid.
While considerably more tolerant of foreigners than say Invelious or Laerise, she still considers them beneath her and in need of enlightenment. Slavery has been the choice of Amarr for centuries, and therefore God's way, so that's the way it should be :)
Jamyl I is a miracle, and anyone who says otherwise shall burn at the stake for their heresy.
Prior to offering Khanid II a seat on the Privy Council, the Kingdom and it's King were rightful outcasts and to be looked down on. Now that Jamyl has brought Khanid back into the fold, they must be welcomed back as Brothers and Sisters in Faith.
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One thing I'd like to add is that the way I understand Amarr to work is that everything about Amarr - culture, dress, behavior, etc, etc is tradition driven. Which in turn is Scripture driven(shaped by the Theology Council of course). So everything about them is a way to honor God.
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I assume from an RP standpoint that the Amarr block looked a bit different before FW. I've only been playing since a little before Tyrannis, so I have no knowledge of what things were like prior.
I can understand how FW and the sudden emergence on an enemy would help to discourage internal conflict - "We can't fight each other, the Minmatar are attacking!"
Of course, then there was that brief bit a while ago when the Amarr militia started shooting each other. I really wish that had evolved into a proper civil war rather than petering out (or being taken out of public view). It simply would have made things much more interesting.
If my historical recollection serves me correct, perhaps the stronger force for unification of the Amarr bloc was Operation Judas Goat. To my knowledge there was not significant discord within the Amarr bloc immediately before FW. However, FW did introduce some schisms in the ranks, where a subset prioritised the objectives of FW, and another looked towards developing 0.0. and fighting enemies in the traditional way.
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Odelya definitely has a conservative agenda, the problem (and the reason) is that she is a hedonist party slut and partly of Gallentean descent... And that needs some serious cover.
PIE used to be considered dangerously liberal by many, and while we may have slightly edged more to the right wing we are still pretty Heideranian.
Agreed. I find PIE quite liberal to be honest, all this public talks and studies about the legitimacy of slavery... ;) But maybe conservatism isn’t so much defined by political opinions and is more a matter of habitus and weltanschauung in general?
If someone is elected pope and the cardinals do not speak out against him even though he is a woman he is still a pope for all intents and purposes - to deny that would be to break with the orthodoxy of the church at that point in time.
Tell that to him: http://www.vaticaninexile.com/ ;)
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Horatius is more conservative than he seems 8)
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Wondering if there are any truely amarr loyal and traditional conservatives out there, except for us PIE's tbh...
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2020.msg25678#msg25678 (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2020.msg25678#msg25678)]
First off, PIE Inc. is a liberal amarr corp in the traditional sense of the word.
Wat.
But to answer Lae's question which spawned the topic, yes, there are. Raphael Saint is a conservative by pretty much every measure stated in the above posts, with the exception of disliking Tash-Murkon. Even though they're Udorian in bloodline he views them as champions of moving up the social ladder, since they were originally wealthy commoners (which is also his ancestry).
He's also loyal to the Empire, a loyalty which spreads to the Empress as she is a Theo Council approved head of the state.
His seperation from PIE had nothing to do with ideological issues, as one may think now that he flies under the KotMC banner. He still holds PIE in high regards, it's pilots as friends and allies, and he'd probably have gone back to PIE if not for the reason of his seperation. In fact, his almost complete 180 view on policies and subjects with KotMC leadership as led to a few good RPs.
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I'm not going to alter my post, I've no idea why you are even offended by it. If the forum moderators do not like it, they can erase it or ban me from the forums.
I said that to illustrate that we are an PVP corp, why you would take offense to that I have no idea.
But in the end, you're right. People are free to make up their own opinions about things.
However you don't have the monopoly of what is Amarrian and what is not. New Eden is an enormous place and I am certain there are all sorts of people to make it up, not everyone is going to be a carbon copy of ArchBishop or Rodj Blake. And it would be really boring for RP if they were.
Variety is good for rp. Conflict is good for rp. If we were all the same it'd be very, very dull.
Also, I'm not rping in this post nor was I in the other, no idea where you get that from.
~ Shalee
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Actually I think I have to agree with Laerise on one thing here: I honestly *think KotMC isn't wholly Amarrian anymore. It's become something beyond that now.
I suppose we'll have to start trying to define what it has become in the near future so we can clear up these diplomatic relations.
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This sounds very interesting.
Sadly, I am only an observer on the Amarrian scene but I have always found it interesting how people depict the Amarrian ways.
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I don't think any one person gets to decide what is 'wholly Amarrian'.
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I do.
And you all fail at it.
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(http://www.ponychan.net/chan/pony/src/130914476804.png)
Very insightful.
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I applauded Vince here for pointing out something important. Everypony needs to calm down and take a step back. This is meant to be a constructive OOC thread about the conservative of the Amarr Empire. If things are presented in a hostile fashion, the entire point of it breaks down.
A big part of being conservative is resisting change. The most extreme of which are those so stubborn that they will not change regardless of the ramifications. Most people I have seen are playing something a bit more functional from that, their characters are being forced to change to survive in the turmoil of an ever changing world.
Those that wish to play along those lines it is a great opportunity to role play someone holding on to what they are comfortable with and explore the inter conflict having to adjust to the elements they can not hold out on.
Up from the complete holdouts to all change you get grades of grey until you eventually hit those that push for change purely because it is new and different.
Only true self destructive anarchists push to that extreme, and even then most of them are only voicing chaotic change and fold from it what the going gets tough. Instead you get most of your ‘liberals’ in those shades of grey.
Now the entire point of the ‘conservative’ is to be a contrast to the ‘liberal’ in a story. With out one or the other, the remaining one is just flat.
Here is where we seem to be running into a problem, some of the outspoken members of the ‘old block’ of Amarr role players do not want new comers being outside of their comfort zone. They wish for everything to remain in neat little rows, properly colored and numbered. Many of the more outspoken of these new comers to the Amarr role playing scene become angry at what they perceive as a sudden wall of hostility. Now we have conflict that not only does not drive good story growth, but creates direct hostility between players.
Read earlier in this thread, there is clear example of this. What could have been growth opportunities instead being infested with hostility and passive-aggressive sniping.
It is, for the most part, pointless to try to define who is role playing properly. Taking a “do it our way or GTFO” mindset makes the situation even worse. I am not trying to turn this into a big, fat, lets get along speech. I am just trying to say “save your hostility for in character interaction”.
(there, done soapboxing for now)
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I'm not going to alter my post, I've no idea why you are even offended by it. If the forum moderators do not like it, they can erase it or ban me from the forums.
No need for passive-agressiveness Shalee, really, the mod's are doing a great job at keeping this forum civil.
I said that to illustrate that we are an PVP corp, why you would take offense to that I have no idea.
No comment necessary on this on my part, really.
But in the end, you're right. People are free to make up their own opinions about things.
It's nice to see that we can agree on this.
However you don't have the monopoly of what is Amarrian and what is not. New Eden is an enormous place and I am certain there are all sorts of people to make it up, not everyone is going to be a carbon copy of ArchBishop or Rodj Blake. And it would be really boring for RP if they were.
I never said I did, nor did Archie or Rodj, so please keep them out of the discussion. Your paranoia is absolutely unfounded and quite upsetting Shalee, I don't really know where this sudden outburst of hostility comes from.
The simple fact of the matter is that once you start crossing certain boundaries of the (PF vailidified) codex of behaviour outlined for "amarrians" others will stop considering you as such.
Here is a simpler example for you, since I don't seem to have been clear enough on this matter before.
If you are from a country that is known for its close mindedness, strict morals and ethnic division and act open minded, morally emancipated and don't mind ethnics at all - well you should not be surprised to be considered as much a foreigner as everyone else.
Variety is good for rp. Conflict is good for rp. If we were all the same it'd be very, very dull.
I agree with you on all points, variety is good, conflict is even better, muddling the waters to make everyone wear the same label is bad.
Also, I'm not rping in this post nor was I in the other, no idea where you get that from.
Good to know, in that case I'll ask you to calm down a little, there is really no need to be upset about anything. After all we are all adults who can have a civil discussion without letting it devolve into, well, a squabble.
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KotMC vs. PIE
Honestly this discussion shouldn't happen here because it can't. More than half of it will end up in the catacombs. There's just too much bad blood and history involved between the parties on both sides, and if the moderators can't see it happening already, I certainly can.
If everyone wants this to remain civil, than the thread seriously needs to go back on topic of which characters are conservative (posted by their owners) and who's not. Relegate everything else to PMs, EVEmails, and in game channels.
And I swear to God that if I get one reply to this from any of those involved that says "I don't know what you're talking about," my reply is going to be so point-by-point expository and unforgiving that it won't even make it to the catacombs, it'll be outright deleted by the mods and I'll likely end up with a ban of some sort. And I don't want that. I like to reply to threads from time to time.
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As far as I can see, apart from some borderline comments so far, it's been a pretty civil discussion.
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Getting back to the origin of the thread, specifically the wondering if there are any truly Amarr loyal and conservatives characters actively in EVE right now. Writing this, I am trying to take an outside view. I am not weighing in an specifics as this is what I/my character believe or this is not what is supported.
Firstly, I think that Victoria Stecker covered the difficulty of defining conservative beautifully. Such often comes down to who is viewing and what it is being compared to.
Then the issue of loyalty to the Amarr Empire. This can be a muddy one when looked at from a step back. Often the determination of ‘loyal’ or ‘disloyal’ can only be made when viewed as a whole with the deeds of the individual.
Is a citizen who questions elements of the changes wrought in the Empire or the Empress Jamyl’s right to rule out of desire for the best for the Empire disloyal because they are concerned over that which they love? Like wise, is the individual who just blindly follows what they think is the easiest to get by with really all that loyal or are they just going with the flow? Is pointing out possible problems a sign of disloyalty or is it a sign of being invested enough to actually look.
One of the things I think is muddying this thread is the distinction between corporation and characters. Some players have their characters in corporations because the feel they can do the most good within them, even if their character’s views and beliefs do not line up 100% to that of the corporation.
I can only speak of the corp my main character is in right now, which is KotMC. This thread actually sparked an in depth, back and forth conversation on a number of elements relating to corp mindset/direction vs. character mindset/direction. This lead to issues being brought up, elements defined, and some matters resolved. One of the things that was very clear is that because of the diverse background of the KotMC members, there were a number of different views on some subjects.
One of the things that seems to be hard to define is what makes an “Amarrian” corp. More than just deciding you wanted to play an “Amarrian” corp, you have to define what makes it an “Amarrian” corp. I do not believe that the same answer can be applied to every corp. I think that the people creating/within the corp need to, both at the beginning and as time progresses, pause and take a look at what they feel sets them apart as an “Amarrian” corp.
With all this said, the actual leadership of the Amarr Empire is in the hands of NPCs or GMs in the event of story lines. There is no over-all force that steps in, unquestionable, and says “you are loyal, you are not”. Then that leaves it up to us, the players to define who and what our identities are as we play the game.
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And what exactly makes Rodj's request OOC in this context - or, more precisely, why is the delivery method of a reaction to IC events relevant?
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Oh, I should clarify...
There's been plenty of OOC discussion regarding this whole affair on our forums and there's this hint of it here on these forums.
I realize that I am sort of the one that tied to the two together, so that is actually an error on my part. I apologize for the drawing strings where there weren't any before.
Carry on.
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I'd personally love to see more PIE and KPV activity. Some good and proper Amarr/Khanid RP is fun to watch. All this non-Amarrian stuff proclaiming to be the 'twue' Amarr ways gets old and boring to interact with after a while. PIE needs to step up the activity, I think. Show New Eden how to do it Amarrian Style, as it were.
I have to say I agree OoC with many of the concerns raised here... KotMC isn't an Amarrian corp anymore, from what I can tell.
KPV did not survive Atlas's betrayal and Silas' departure. However, I'd like to see more from PIE as well, just something against the Minmatar would be nice. So far from all of it's transgressions, KotMC hasn't caused any sort problems for the Empire or war effort, and is still a very staunch supporter of combat actions in the militia warzone.
I can't speak for any of the other non-traditionalist Amarrian corps, but I can say that KotMC has never claimed to be the 'twue' or even 'true' Amarrian way.
Speaking of subjects getting old, though, I would definately like to see some more variety from the Minmatar side. As a lifelong Amarrian-loyalist RPer, I can't count how many times I've seen the same names and arguements being thrown at us about slavery. I've seen variety from the Amarrian side, with mentions of the Elder invaision, the Voluval marks creating outcasts and Pariahs, the way Shakor is leading the Republic. But it seems that all I hear from the Minmatar end is 'Death to Slavers!' I understand that it's a big and dear issue to the Minmatar, but even those on that side have to be tired of playing the same record over and over.
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I'd personally love to see more PIE and KPV activity. Some good and proper Amarr/Khanid RP is fun to watch. All this non-Amarrian stuff proclaiming to be the 'twue' Amarr ways gets old and boring to interact with after a while. PIE needs to step up the activity, I think. Show New Eden how to do it Amarrian Style, as it were.
I have to say I agree OoC with many of the concerns raised here... KotMC isn't an Amarrian corp anymore, from what I can tell.
KPV did not survive Atlas's betrayal and Silas' departure. However, I'd like to see more from PIE as well, just something against the Minmatar would be nice. So far from all of it's transgressions, KotMC hasn't caused any sort problems for the Empire or war effort, and is still a very staunch supporter of combat actions in the militia warzone.
I can't speak for any of the other non-traditionalist Amarrian corps, but I can say that KotMC has never claimed to be the 'twue' or even 'true' Amarrian way.
Speaking of subjects getting old, though, I would definately like to see some more variety from the Minmatar side. As a lifelong Amarrian-loyalist RPer, I can't count how many times I've seen the same names and arguements being thrown at us about slavery. I've seen variety from the Amarrian side, with mentions of the Elder invaision, the Voluval marks creating outcasts and Pariahs, the way Shakor is leading the Republic. But it seems that all I hear from the Minmatar end is 'Death to Slavers!' I understand that it's a big and dear issue to the Minmatar, but even those on that side have to be tired of playing the same record over and over.
I would love, absolutely love, to see a pro matari group that doesnt give a shit about the Amarrian slaves. Anything else, like, the slaves are finished, theres no saving them, most of them could care less about the Republic. Hate the gallante for once, everyone knows the Republic is their bitch. Free yourselves from the shadow of corrupt democracy, shoot those bastards :twisted:
p.s. I have no issues being shot at nor do I shy away from Matari aggression, in fact I embrace it. I personally feel that trying to fight the slavery in Amarr and freeing slaves is rather pointless. To put it in perspective, trying spot Amarrian slavery is like trying to stop the fast food industry from the whole sale slaughtering cows and chickens for burgers. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
That is all.
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If KotMC is not wholly amarrian, it sounds quite logical. When you are liberal and starting to trade/speak/whatever with other cultures as all liberals should do, it is only logical that you start to lose a little of your core cultural identity. Pointing out that in the case of KotMC is quite beyond me, it is like stating the obvious.
Well then, may I ask which actions of KotMC are you speaking of ? Feed us examples and why you think it is wrong or not amarrish. We can still work to fix what can be wrong.
Before though, Lyn is exempted because she is indeed not very amarrish, nor ammatarish.
I count amongst those actions not benefitting conservative amarrians to be: Piracy against random neutrals (http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=219056), fraternisation (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1523619&page=1#7) with heathens / the enemy (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1503720&page=2#48), happily inviting sansha's to your events (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1485170) and, of course, . the sheltering of apostates such as Lyn Farel, who is happy to dismiss the scriptures (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1468714&page=2#60).
Then again though, Lyn, I don't really see why I should bother at all to explain this to you, or anyone else, since this has been brought up constantly to your leadership. KOTMC has gone to great lengths to put themselves into the corner they stand in right now and I do not see that change at all in the future.
For the piracy and the link you provided, it is the first time I see it, and be sure I am going to ask to the leadership what this means. Note that I do not care if sometimes someones slips, it can be interesting ICly, though if it were to be done repeatedly KotMC policy would be to expel him as far as I know. I don't know if PIE expel such cases at the first mistake, but I can assure you that KotMC does it at least on the next act of piracy.
Fraternisation with Heathens, heh, we are liberals. Liberals are not orthodox and even less conservatives. Be them Amarrian or not. And with the enemy ? I do not see any enemy, unless you are speaking about EM and this case is quite contentious. As much as their actions are borderline when they help the TLF to take down amarrian POS in Huola (what the fuck are those POSes doing here anyway ? Never had any answer), they mostly remain in the Republic and have always been more or less midularites (their leadership at least, and Elsebeth), though some of their members are more shakorites. In any case, it is not because they are YOUR enemy and mutual war targets that they also should be OURS. Though we still have them in red.
Well, inviting Sansha or other enemies in the Keep is an old issue with you. You still stuck with that ? I thought we explained quite plenly why it was not so weird and I think our justifications are more or less solid. If you are not pleased with them, fine, I am not asking PIE to follow KotMC policies. Please be of the same respect when it comes to us, even if you think we are doing it wrong. We don't, and we think to be in tune with the PF.
As I said for Lyn, she is not very amarrish. Though even if she is sometimes very borderline, something that I am totally aware of and what actually pleases me in that roleplay, again, I think she is in total concordance with the Scriptures, actually. Saying that she dismisses the Scriptures is a blatant lie, as she considers them to be a central point in her beliefs. I am starting to think that you are confusing IC and OOC borders. While I can totally understand and expect Laerise to think as such, you have no right to think that the appreciation of the situation of your character is the only one worth of consideration.
And yes, this has been brought to the leadership, and why the answers have at first been negative, then mostly "deaf", this is because we are starting to ignore that kind of constant unilateral bickering. PIE was not able to make its point ICly ? Fine, but please don't come to enforce it OOC-ly with dubious arguments.
The fact though that you are aparently excluding yourself from "PIE and various other Amarr loyalist corps" does shed an interresting light on this.
Of course, we are liberal, not a carbon copy of PIE Inc. If you already consider yourself liberal, well, I am not the one that will tell you if it is right or wrong, even if I consider myself that to be wrong, so again, please do not state that we are doing it wrong by considering ourselves as liberal amarrian loyalists.
While you are at it, go tell to other liberal scattered amarrian characters that are not in KotMC that they are not amarrian loyalists. Because this is basically what you are doing.
In the end I am asking you Laerise, what are you looking for, when besides that you state that you take pleasure of OOC driven RP conflicts ? What are you looking for ?
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I would love, absolutely love, to see a pro matari group that doesnt give a shit about the Amarrian slaves. Anything else, like, the slaves are finished, theres no saving them, most of them could care less about the Republic. Hate the gallante for once, everyone knows the Republic is their bitch. Free yourselves from the shadow of corrupt democracy, shoot those bastards :twisted:
Well, there's an easy way of getting rid of it. Free them or kill them all. Make the root of the issue go away. I'd find it utterly unlikely that the Matari would drop the issue when a full third of their people are enslaved. It's kind of a massive issue to deal with. If the problem vanishes, it'd free up a lot of effort towards other things. Personally, I have been playing Miz as anti-Gallente and hatin' on them quite a bit, while trying to reach out to the State instead. It's not easy to pull off though, as it's even further alienating Miz from the Matari RP crowd. (Which, funnily enough, being Anti-Slaver does too... most Matari RPers get all :frownfaes: when there's talk of dealing with the slave problem).
p.s. I have no issues being shot at nor do I shy away from Matari aggression, in fact I embrace it. I personally feel that trying to fight the slavery in Amarr and freeing slaves is rather pointless. To put it in perspective, trying spot Amarrian slavery is like trying to stop the fast food industry from the whole sale slaughtering cows and chickens for burgers. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
That is all.
Well, from the other side of things, it's rather pointless to try and make it stop without removing the cause for the problem/aggression. Trying to make the entire problem cease to exist by ignoring it won't ever happen, and a full third of a people held as slaves? Not going to stop being a problem while it is so. If the RP is to change, the situation needs to change.
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So what if KOTMC isn't a textbook Amarr corp?
The more aspects and varieties the better!
Now, I might wardec them someday over it... 8)
But that doesn't mean it's bad!
Invelious: I would love, absolutely love, to see a pro matari group that doesnt give a shit about the Amarrian slaves. Anything else, like, the slaves are finished, theres no saving them, most of them could care less about the Republic. Hate the gallante for once, everyone knows the Republic is their bitch. Free yourselves from the shadow of corrupt democracy, shoot those bastards.
Right on, brother.
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Yes, I would love to see more variety in roleplay in either Matari RP and either Amarr RP.
Well, there's an easy way of getting rid of it. Free them or kill them all. Make the root of the issue go away.
This is IC, and only YOUR point of view.
I'd find it utterly unlikely that the Matari would drop the issue when a full third of their people are enslaved.
Definitly. Though it does not mean that EVERY matari cares, because it is highly unprobable.
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Slavery is, and will remain, a HUGE topic for the Matari.
While we, as players, may realize that trying to end slavery in the Empire is near futile, you have to realize that the Republic's very existence is because of slavery. If there was no slavery, the Matari people would never have united for rebellion, the Republic would never have been formed, they would still be scattered tribes. (Now they have this really unique mix of tribes WITHIN a Republic, which is kind of neat if you ask me.)
But it's simple, as long as slavery exists, then the Republic will be against it and it will remain a frontline issue. Conversely, one could argue that the Republic secretly doesn't want slavery to come to an end because then it would have very little reason to continue its existence. The issue of slavery is currently uniting the otherwise sectioned Matari people.
It will remain a big issue for them because it HAS to.
*Disclaimer: The notion of the Republic not wanting slavery to end is simply a roleplay twist, it is not based on any PF or anything else that I know of. Just a simple conspiracy theory that can be used in character to help fuel some RP and what not.
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To weigh in on part of this issue, the http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=219056 (http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=219056) killmail and its pair http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=219057 (http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=219057) from the Amarr FW killboard that is being referenced here by Laerise as “piracy against random neutrals” is not the case. These neutrals worked together in an attempt to bait and hit the small fleet involved and were overmatched when they with what they aggressed.
As people that fly in the lowsec FW zone are often confronted with, any and all “neutral” pilots down there are likely looking for easy kills. If it is not the normal faces that want to throw in for RP reasons but do not want to play the FW game because the mechanics suck (EM being the most present), it is self stated pirates hostilely rolling around (BANE, SILENT., NC., shadowvoles.net, Dragoon Fed, Dragoons., the list goes on). This the is added to by other random hostile faces (a trio of random TEST gang BBs and the likes) and random upstarts coming into lowsec to blow off some steam. Generally, only the new and uninformed come into lowsec not either expecting or looking for a fight.
Basing a weighted accusation of piracy against someone based on an anonymous and directly vulgar troll comment on a killmail seems to be a bit hasty. At the very least this part of the above concerns really should be set aside.
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Slavery is, and will remain, a HUGE topic for the Matari.
While we, as players, may realize that trying to end slavery in the Empire is near futile, you have to realize that the Republic's very existence is because of slavery. If there was no slavery, the Matari people would never have united for rebellion, the Republic would never have been formed, they would still be scattered tribes. (Now they have this really unique mix of tribes WITHIN a Republic, which is kind of neat if you ask me.)
But it's simple, as long as slavery exists, then the Republic will be against it and it will remain a frontline issue. Conversely, one could argue that the Republic secretly doesn't want slavery to come to an end because then it would have very little reason to continue its existence. The issue of slavery is currently uniting the otherwise sectioned Matari people.
It will remain a big issue for them because it HAS to.
*Disclaimer: The notion of the Republic not wanting slavery to end is simply a roleplay twist, it is not based on any PF or anything else that I know of. Just a simple conspiracy theory that can be used in character to help fuel some RP and what not.
It'd be cool if we could split this off into a second topic, because it doesn't relate well with the OP.
And, yep, I pretty much agree. On the other hand, and seeing how long closely connected the republic is with the federation, I could also imagine that "the press" will have found other hot-button issues by now, second class citizenship in the federation being amongst those issues.
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Well, there's an easy way of getting rid of it. Free them or kill them all. Make the root of the issue go away.
This is IC, and only YOUR point of view.
Actually, it's OoC. IC, saying 'kill them all' would probably be the exact opposite of anything Miz'd do. As for 'my point of view', of course it is. I'm not very good at telepathy or other means of finding, then voicing other people's point of view within my own forum posts. It'd be rather silly.
I'd find it utterly unlikely that the Matari would drop the issue when a full third of their people are enslaved.
Definitly. Though it does not mean that EVERY matari cares, because it is highly unprobable.
Of course not. I'm just saying that the desire to have slavery dropped as an issue is just completely impossible. That there'd be outliers on any curve is a given. What I am concerned about is how the outliers are seriously outnumbering the most likely kind of people out there. Everyone is 'special' and there's almost none left retaining some of the most likely views and philosophies.
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Of course not. I'm just saying that the desire to have slavery dropped as an issue is just completely impossible. That there'd be outliers on any curve is a given. What I am concerned about is how the outliers are seriously outnumbering the most likely kind of people out there. Everyone is 'special' and there's almost none left retaining some of the most likely views and philosophies.
True, but we're dealing with the reality of a game - we play to have fun. While I certainly applaud the people that have been stalwarts in the tireless slavery debate, the very fact that it's so unchanging and so ubiquitous means that for some people, it simply won't be any fun. People are going to play something they enjoy playing, and at the moment this seems to mean people are drifting away from the traditional conservative positions and trying to do something new. Does this realistically represent what's happening among capsuleers? Nope. But we can easily handwave that by pointing to non-RPers and saying 'there are your conservatives, see how badly we're outnumbered?'
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Raze is my first character on EVE online. He's got 3.5mil SP and is effectively a little over two months old.
I did a lot of reading on the Chronicles and the race histories and the Prime Fiction before I decided what I wanted to play and, in fact, went through several character concepts. (The only race I really didn't consider playing was Caldari).
I actually made Raze because I love the Amarr lore and I really thought it would be neat to try and play someone who loved the Empire and loved the people within it, who was also dedicated to the God of the Amarr but had a difference of opinion regarding some points.
For example, Raze doesn't see the justification for slavery in the Scriptures. He sees where it CAN be interpreted to support slavery and he sees the direct command for servitude and enforcing conformity. He simply believes that everything the Empire can accomplish through slavery can be accomplished through other methods and the justifications for slavery are based entirely on interpretation.
There are a few other things that he would likely dissent with conservatives over, but he genuinely has no desire to destroy, undermine or otherwise disrupt the functions of the Empire and those he considers his brothers and sisters in both faith and government.
When I made the character, I really thought that I'd be sort of unique. I thought it would be fun to play that sort of twist on the average Amarr. It wasn't until very recently that I realized there's already a pretty solid "liberal" presence on the servers.
But even with all of the capsuleers who are "liberal," the staunch imperial conservatives vastly outnumber the liberals and I think the Prime Fiction does support the existence of both. Namely with the line "...this double failure has spurred a whole generation of philosophy and politics..." in the True Amarr heritage.
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Jhaelee is the first character I created for EVE, like others. It was initially based on the very limited intro paragraphs and the images of ships I was able to see during character creation.
I tend to demo all of the major MMOs that come out and had finally made it around to EVE. The character was made a girl simply because the last MMO demo I had made a guy (tends to be how I do it). As for race, I though the limited description of the old powerful Theocracy aging poorly in a newer era sounded like a nice use of that archetype and likely fun to play because it was unlike most modern societies. Sheepishly, though, I do have to admit what made me go Amarr was the ship looks. The Punisher and the Omen compared to the Vigil and the Rupture in looks sent me towards the Amarr. Though, had I seen the Hurricane and Minmatar capital ships my first character would be still be spitting bullets for the other side.
After I started and saw that I actually liked the game play and that the possibility to play for free was not some 1/4th of the game rip off like most MMOs, I began reading into the background of the group I had flippantly chosen. That is what led me to PIE to begin with. I strongly wanted to support my character’s faction in the most direct way possible.
Despite my friend that originally got me to play EVE saying FW was the biggest steaming pile CCP every produced, I am still knee deep in it today. It was mostly due to the influence of my corp mates and time I spent in PIE that helped me to fully decide the direction I wanted to take the Jhaelee character.
A big part of the Jhaelee mindset is the concept of divine right. The Amarr had the right to enslave their early conquests because they had conquered them. Reversely, many of the Minmatar won their right to freedom because they successfully rose up against the Empire. Had that all not been the will of God, it would not have happened as such.
She is a bit to young to have been active during the controversy surrounding Empress Jamyl rise, but despite some concerns follows along with the changes that have been ordered simply because they come from the Empress. This gives Jhaelee really no view but for the greater good of the Amarr Empire and a huge lacking when it comes to understanding other’s view points.
I have had a good time and gotten good interactions out of this character’s close minded view on some of these very weighty subjects. Some of the minor fragments of that led Raphael Saint to flesh out his own character’s history.
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So what if KOTMC isn't a textbook Amarr corp?
The more aspects and varieties the better!
Now, I might wardec them someday over it... 8)
But that doesn't mean it's bad!
A new wave of Amarrian reclaiming is going to be taking effect, should be interesting to see the general amarrian groups reactions.
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I'm not sure about 'reclaiming'.
Perhaps 'judgement by fire' would be more accurate?
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That would be interesting. Bring it on, old man. :)
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I'm not sure about 'reclaiming'.
Perhaps 'judgement by fire' would be more accurate?
I can accept that, or maybe, "baptism by fire"?
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What exactly constitutes an Amarrian conservative to most people anyway? I think we need to define that before we can answer the original question as to why there aren't so many of them anymore.
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What exactly constitutes an Amarrian conservative to most people anyway? I think we need to define that before we can answer the original question as to why there aren't so many of them anymore.
I would say that “the Amarrian conservative” is an empty signifier with a variety of meanings. Likewise “tradition” is always socially constructed and a fluid concept. Just take a look at various independent Catholic groups, like the Old Catholic Church or Sedevacantism for example. They all think they’re right and base their arguments on what they call “tradition”.
Let’s just imagine the history of Amarr is this line here:
——————————————> [today]
Every pixel represents thousands of years and within this years thousands of cultural products etc. etc. can be found. It would be impossible for every human or institution to know or even to reference them. This natural limitation is also responsible for infinite variety of reference. And now some/one of this varieties of reference is deemed “tradition”:
——(x)————x————x—x—>
But this could also change to:
—xx—(x)————x——————>
Conclusion: This can only be an IC debate!
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Simply, an Amarrian conservative is someone who supports the status quo in the Empire.
That means that a conservative is someone who upholds the traditions of the Empire, knows his place in the heirarchy and is suspicious of both outsiders with their foreign ways and insiders who seek reform.
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The word conservative would insinuate a regressive or static view on development.
Not necessarily. American Conservatives, in the civic and economic arenas, are conserving liberalism from a world history point of view. Besides military dictatorships, conservatives tend to thrive in places where established institutions have made their society great. Thus, they are worth upholding and worth fighting for.
Hence conservatives would be for slavery and for militant reclaiming.
But with the Amarr, that seems to the best quick summation.
My view is mainly based on the fact that no-one in the Amarr canon has ever made any sacrifices for their Faith (the entertainer in Abraxases fanfic does not count) therefore no Amarrian roleplayer is encouraged to do the same, hence no Amarrian roleplayer does it, hence we have all these wishy washy OOC bleedout cardboard cutout Amarrians that huggle anybody because they want to be liked.
My view is that everyone fancies themselves to be the high elf in the discussion and must act accordingly. :D