Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Rok-Yuni on 29 May 2011, 02:07
-
so, been bored and trawling the eve forums, the ship crew debate rages on... and there has been some speculation as to whether it might ever become a game mechanic, or even just be referenced in the killmails and the like... so here's my 2 bits.
while i believe it would help immersion, and in many ways spread the player base out a lot more, especially in high security space, i don't personally believe that, unless it is incredibly hand-wavy, implementing ship crews would work.
they would have to source the crews from a systems inhabited planets, that would produce a base figure to work from, then would come social and environmental modifiers... a wealthy temperate world with good farming, entertainments and tech is likely to have less of a percentage willing to risk becomming crew than a barely functioning backwater....
then there is refresh rate... at best they could feasibly do this once every few months, as new crews finish training... so losing a ship would start to become even more worrying. (and CCP would have to implement a crew loss calculation to ship deaths)
add to that the impact crews would have on nullsec. how many crew are needed for one titan? fleetfights as we know them would be over. losing a titan would probably take months to replenish, unless the crew was sourced from perhaps a whole constellation...
-
Yes I like the idea. But I just do not want to see it becoming another big ISK worry, and more something connected to some other factor (time ? something else ?).
It could also be cool for Sansha / Rogue drone supporters, to get more concrete and material means to abduct people when killing other capsuleers.
-
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines
-
The crewmen are there. And they are totally irrelevant.
Tens of trillions of people in the cluster. Say, average of 1000 in a capsuleer ship (some have zero, some have several times that). 300,000 capsuleers or so. ~300,000,000 people working as crew on egger ships at any given moment. Let's say half of them die horribly in any given year. That's an attrition rate of 150,000,000 per year (a lot by our standards, but...) If we estimate the cluster's population at around 20 trillion, that kill rate comes in around... 0.00075% of the whole. If a civilization as vast as New Eden can't continuously replace those numbers through births and staggered education cycles, everyone is doomed. Also worth noting that with those estimates, only about 1 in 66,000 people in the cluster serves as crew aboard a capsuleer ship, making such people more than 200 times as rare as say... a current member of the U.S. military is in American society.
tl;dr We're not going to run out of crew.
But for the record I would be thrilled to see some sort of 'crew bonuses' system implemented.
-
Someone did the numbers for the mission hub losses once... that is what we would have to worry about!
But escape pods are part of PF, so not even every ship loss is a total loss of crew.
-
Yea, I usually pretend missions don't really exist, even when I'm running them. I mean, how the heck do the Serps and Angels get that many battleships into Dodixie :P
-
Yea, I usually pretend missions don't really exist, even when I'm running them. I mean, how the heck do the Serps and Angels get that many battleships into Dodixie :P
Lobbyists.
-
*u&!ng democracy...
-
Yea, I usually pretend missions don't really exist, even when I'm running them. I mean, how the heck do the Serps and Angels get that many battleships into Dodixie :P
What's your thoughts on citing storylines IC?
-
The crewmen are there. And they are totally irrelevant.
Tens of trillions of people in the cluster. Say, average of 1000 in a capsuleer ship (some have zero, some have several times that). 300,000 capsuleers or so. ~300,000,000 people working as crew on egger ships at any given moment. Let's say half of them die horribly in any given year. That's an attrition rate of 150,000,000 per year (a lot by our standards, but...) If we estimate the cluster's population at around 20 trillion, that kill rate comes in around... 0.00075% of the whole. If a civilization as vast as New Eden can't continuously replace those numbers through births and staggered education cycles, everyone is doomed. Also worth noting that with those estimates, only about 1 in 66,000 people in the cluster serves as crew aboard a capsuleer ship, making such people more than 200 times as rare as say... a current member of the U.S. military is in American society.
tl;dr We're not going to run out of crew.
But for the record I would be thrilled to see some sort of 'crew bonuses' system implemented.
Oh yes definitly, but you still need to re recruit your crew, the time to go get them in the closest populated area, etc.
Yea, I usually pretend missions don't really exist, even when I'm running them. I mean, how the heck do the Serps and Angels get that many battleships into Dodixie :P
Interesting view, though I always told myself that only capsuleers are under the watch of concord. We also only use designated stargates, but taking in account that there is a lot of forgotten things in space, that stargates are not so hard to build for any sized organization (like any POS or tower or something else of the same caliber), it is not so hard to hide yourself in the vastness of space.
Except when you are a capsuleer and being monitored closely by CONCORD as you need a licence to fly. They must be tracking every capsuleer of the cluster. Except probably the affiliated (NPC) ones like Roden, etc.
-
Yea, I usually pretend missions don't really exist, even when I'm running them. I mean, how the heck do the Serps and Angels get that many battleships into Dodixie :P
What's your thoughts on citing storylines IC?
Like everything with missions it has to be done sparingly. Everyone effectively runs the same missions, storyline and otherwise, so you have to treat them more as inspiration for a particular character's traits/experiences/storylines rather than real, precise events that happened exactly as they are represented in the client. I find it's best to simply say Character A has a long and glowing record of contracting for Corporation B and think of new and interesting interpretations of the 'contracting relationship' rather than to say Character A has killed Kruul and rescued the damsel, even though that is literally what he did... more than a dozen times.
ymmv
Yea, I usually pretend missions don't really exist, even when I'm running them. I mean, how the heck do the Serps and Angels get that many battleships into Dodixie :P
Interesting view, though I always told myself that only capsuleers are under the watch of concord. We also only use designated stargates, but taking in account that there is a lot of forgotten things in space, that stargates are not so hard to build for any sized organization (like any POS or tower or something else of the same caliber), it is not so hard to hide yourself in the vastness of space.
Yes, I suppose that works too. Still, mission hubs are just laughably implausible even in a capsuleers-always-wear-blinders version of New Eden. I mean, we're talking about hundreds of pirate battleships in the heart of the Federation, State, Empire, and Republic. They're just hanging out, going totally unnoticed by the faction navies, police, and media until some capsuleer gets a tip off to their presence and swoops in to murder everyone. If every single mission deadspace pocket in the cluster had to be taken as a "hard PF" fact, I think it would go far beyond the term "immersion-breaking". So, I just handwave them into the realm of capsuleer bluster/propaganda/simulation/otherspace. Helps me sleep at night.
-
I would be amused if crew / humans became somehow involved in PI, maybe lowsec / nulsec only PI involving slavery and such. Not sure if that'd work with EVE's age rating though, and possibly sensitive audience. It would deliver massive grimdark though <3
-
Seriously, if you try to present yourself as someone who has killed 10,000 sansha battleships (even if you have in the game client), I'm never going to take you seriously. The same goes for saying that you killed Kruul and rescued the same damsel 5000 times. Same goes for anyone saying that any pirate faction loses >50,000 BS a month. NPC content has to be taken with liberal dose of handwaving.
It's better than the alternative, of scouring systems and belts for weeks in the hope of catching one lone NPC patrol, who would fight you properly and competently...because that's the sort of thing our chars are supposed to be encountering. But it wouldn't make for fun gameplay.
-
Yea, I usually pretend missions don't really exist, even when I'm running them. I mean, how the heck do the Serps and Angels get that many battleships into Dodixie :P
What's your thoughts on citing storylines IC?
Like everything with missions it has to be done sparingly. Everyone effectively runs the same missions, storyline and otherwise, so you have to treat them more as inspiration for a particular character's traits/experiences/storylines rather than real, precise events that happened exactly as they are represented in the client. I find it's best to simply say Character A has a long and glowing record of contracting for Corporation B and think of new and interesting interpretations of the 'contracting relationship' rather than to say Character A has killed Kruul and rescued the damsel, even though that is literally what he did... more than a dozen times.
ymmv
Yea, I usually pretend missions don't really exist, even when I'm running them. I mean, how the heck do the Serps and Angels get that many battleships into Dodixie :P
Interesting view, though I always told myself that only capsuleers are under the watch of concord. We also only use designated stargates, but taking in account that there is a lot of forgotten things in space, that stargates are not so hard to build for any sized organization (like any POS or tower or something else of the same caliber), it is not so hard to hide yourself in the vastness of space.
Yes, I suppose that works too. Still, mission hubs are just laughably implausible even in a capsuleers-always-wear-blinders version of New Eden. I mean, we're talking about hundreds of pirate battleships in the heart of the Federation, State, Empire, and Republic. They're just hanging out, going totally unnoticed by the faction navies, police, and media until some capsuleer gets a tip off to their presence and swoops in to murder everyone. If every single mission deadspace pocket in the cluster had to be taken as a "hard PF" fact, I think it would go far beyond the term "immersion-breaking". So, I just handwave them into the realm of capsuleer bluster/propaganda/simulation/otherspace. Helps me sleep at night.
I'm largely of the same opinion, of course we don't have the technology and secret routes to travel into the heart of the cluster at a whim, what a hilariously laughable idea. Pay no attention to to these hidden stargates. >_> <_<
But seriously, the entire way that missions are run is just horribly laughable. It doesn't make the faintest whiff of sense in the PF, the sheer number of people repeatedly murdered is absurd, not to mention the bloody damsel makes about as much sense as...something that doesn't make sense.
-
The topic of NPC crew irks me in that it introduces what I feel to be dissonance with the established technological level of the EVE setting.
I realize it's PF, and I'm fine with that and accept it in the context of my RP...
...but I have a module fitted to my ship that, when turned on, my entire ship glows with nanite activity as it repairs itself.
What, exactly, is some human crew member supposed to add to the equation when I have nanites?
There's other PF that establishes that the reason capsuleers are so efficient and awesome is that from their egg-shaped thrones they interface with their ships like they were extensions of their bodies. Why would they denigrate that interface by introducing human facilitation in other areas of the ship's operation?
"Oh, here, I'll turn on my guns with my brain but when I need to fire up the tractor beam I'd better give Scotty's extension a call on the onboard ship phone."
Bleh. So, yeah, I'm hoping that they don't foist more of this awkwardly-fitting PF into the game mechanics, thereby giving it more limelight than it already has.
-
Even if nothing else, it would make a great ISK sink.
-
Hm, as I recall from The Burning Life, crew perform maintenance and cleaning operations. That's right, you're basically carrying thousands of handymen and janitors.
-
Hm, as I recall from The Burning Life, crew perform maintenance and cleaning operations. That's right, you're basically carrying thousands of handymen and janitors.
Nanites.
-
The topic of NPC crew irks me in that it introduces what I feel to be dissonance with the established technological level of the EVE setting.
I realize it's PF, and I'm fine with that and accept it in the context of my RP...
...but I have a module fitted to my ship that, when turned on, my entire ship glows with nanite activity as it repairs itself.
What, exactly, is some human crew member supposed to add to the equation when I have nanites?
There's other PF that establishes that the reason capsuleers are so efficient and awesome is that from their egg-shaped thrones they interface with their ships like they were extensions of their bodies. Why would they denigrate that interface by introducing human facilitation in other areas of the ship's operation?
"Oh, here, I'll turn on my guns with my brain but when I need to fire up the tractor beam I'd better give Scotty's extension a call on the onboard ship phone."
Bleh. So, yeah, I'm hoping that they don't foist more of this awkwardly-fitting PF into the game mechanics, thereby giving it more limelight than it already has.
well.. crews are there to do the things you can't... while you order target priorities, it is your crew that fire and man the guns, and it is crew that make sure those nanites keep going to the parts of the ship they need to. while some systems, like reloading are likely automated, most of a capsuleer ship works just like a normal one, the capsuleer is just in effect a much better thing than a standard ship's on-board computer... far more capable to adapt to various situations.... not to mention the experience factor.
the same can be said of the higher tier npc ships, (un-named ones ofc)... officers and the like run with experienced crews, and somewhat more upgraded vessels.
-
well.. crews are there to do the things you can't...
This is what stymies me. There's nothing with the established technology that a capsuleer couldn't do. Nanites respond to electronic commands. There's no need for a human "nanite shepherd" to check in on them when your capsuleer has electronic control over them.
Same thing with the guns; your capsuleer's skills directly effect the accuracy and efficiency of all of a ship's modules, not just guns.
-
In cases like this, where one fictional mechanic would appear to have total superiority over all others, generally we can assume that other balancing factors exist. Maybe the nanites require some sort of maintenance, or they in fact need some human "nanite shepherd". Stuff breaks down and needs repair. Sometimes you just need a pair of hands and a creative human working them to make things happen when everything else is going wrong.
-
while PF is a little hand-wavy on the subject, the way i have read it is that as a capsuleer you act as a huge enhancement on a ships electrical and computerised systems, as you are, in effect, a super-fast computer with free will...
basically, you are scotty... squeezing every last drop of juice out of every module and system on the ship... but you still need engineers and redshirts to run about inside the ship making things happen and being in the right place to be 'nameless corpse number 57' :P
-
Nanites cost more than crew and have a lower useful life expectancy?
Human life is cheap in a universe with Trillions of people, technology (Nanites) takes time and resources to produce and not as easily replaced. (Hello grimdark)
-
I would think Nanites would require quite a few personnel to properly utilize.
The game simplifies damage, but in the heat of battle, these things would be deployed to specific areas, through various pathways, many of which would be cut off by gaping holes punched in the armor and rerouted around damaged areas.
Remember the crew template: Every module you fit causes crew numbers to increase. You can bet each of them require people to operate them.
-
We also have to remember 2 things when we consider super-advanced robotics/nanites/whatever:
1, AI in the EVE-verse is subject to unknown restrictions, especially on its ability to independently reason. While we're likely looking at systems still generations ahead of anything in the modern world, an AI's ability to adapt to the rapidly evolving (and in all likelyhood rapidly deteriorating) battle situation will be limited. Which brings us to...
2, Murphy's Law, anyone? As one of the few constants which I am absolutely sure still exists in the EVE-verse, the potential for harm caused by Murphy's law gets vastly magnified as we begin to work with generators, weapons, and forcefields of unimaginable power. Mix in a rigid, largely unadaptive AI and you've got a recipe for disaster if you don't have some kind of backup plan.
Say, a crewman, who will actually be able to think on the fly...
-
"nanite shepherd"
Hmm.... I'm trying to decide which of a number of people is about to receive a new nickname....
*starts putting names into a hat*
-
what would a crew bring to the game ?
If they have an effect on ship stats, like rigs do, then what real difference is there compared to simply having another rig slot/more calibration ?
If a crew's effect on the ship rewards "experience", it would increase players aversion to risk, which is not really something that would be good.
Same if it was possible to run out of crew. Increased risk aversion.
If they don't do anything to ship stats as such, and instead are just another material requirement to build a ship, made from some PI process or other, then it adds more steps to the process of building things, without much of a reason why.
(Extra material, so reprocessing ships doesn't generate crewpersons, would also make them a consumable item)
So.. I don't really see what benefits there would be, other than more "realism", and don't see them being introduced as a game mechanic.
-
We also have to remember 2 things when we consider super-advanced robotics/nanites/whatever:
1, AI in the EVE-verse is subject to unknown restrictions, especially on its ability to independently reason. While we're likely looking at systems still generations ahead of anything in the modern world, an AI's ability to adapt to the rapidly evolving (and in all likelyhood rapidly deteriorating) battle situation will be limited. Which brings us to...
2, Murphy's Law, anyone? As one of the few constants which I am absolutely sure still exists in the EVE-verse, the potential for harm caused by Murphy's law gets vastly magnified as we begin to work with generators, weapons, and forcefields of unimaginable power. Mix in a rigid, largely unadaptive AI and you've got a recipe for disaster if you don't have some kind of backup plan.
Say, a crewman, who will actually be able to think on the fly...
Didn't TBL say the crew was actually kept in stasis unless they were actually needed? (It's been a while since I read it.)
Your reasoning is essentially the ONLY reason I can really think of and accept to having a crew on board.
Backup.
No one is needed to fire the guns. You do that. The guns don't need someone to aim them. Even now, computers aim the guns on warships themselves. Fairly certain on something as advanced as a capsuleer ship, they would be able to do that.
People certainly wouldn't be able to reload 100+ rounds of 425mm ammo in 10 seconds.
Yeah, I've always found the idea of a crew on a capsule ship kind of ':ugh: and :roll:' but, whatever. :psyccp: says they're there, so they are there. Mine know to stay near the escape pods because I'm not the best when it comes to risk assessment.
-
Didn't TBL say the crew was actually kept in stasis unless they were actually needed? (It's been a while since I read it.)
Yes, it's actually in one of the "Did you know" thingies on here. Thing is, there's a Chron that shows them working and living much like modern ship crews (i.e., they live in quarters, are on station during operations, etc... ). I've always taken this as a "some do it this way, some do it that way" sort of thing; maybe the Amarr, with their mastery of cybernetics, have been able to perfect putting crew in stasis and waking them up as needed while the Gallente, already heavily reliant on drones, need every hand they do have to be available?
-
Actually, the Empyrean Age expands on the question about crew. On many ships, the crew and passengers have to be secured during warps, since apparently, violating several laws of physics isn't comfortable. So, for example, in TEA the crew of the Retford (flying piece of old junk) were suffering from warp sickness after evading the Blood Raiders. Of course, some ships are just more advanced, and do not need the same measures. After being picked up by Lord Victor, the Retford crew did notice when the Purifier warped, but did not feel any ill effects. (Covert ops have one of the most advanced warp drives in existence, and I bet the Sarum ship was brand new. Possibly shiny, too, if it was not cloaked.)
-
The depth that could be added to Eve with the addition of crews... man, I don't even want to start thinking about it.
Shit too late.
Imagine if they were an almost-living-breathing type of simulated entity. Something you loaded onto a ship by browsing a 'crew roster' or something at stations. Essentially represented by another set of fitting slots, but with regular Sim-City-esque feedback from the peons.
Get into a battle? Sustain casualties. It's obvious, but what consequence could these casualties have?
Crew morale plummets, affecting modules by a 3-5% malus. Or perhaps you receive a reputation as a capsuleer who doesn't care about his crew's survival - leaving you unable to fully staff that battleship you just replaced via insurance. Want to be a capital pilot? Good luck finding a crew if you've maltreated your smaller ship complements. If you keep getting blown up, good luck operating anything bigger than a destroyer.
How to minimize casualties? Upgrade the crew, purchase a medical staff. Morale increases, and more crew are willing to sign aboard. Got yourself a shitty cook, killing crew morale with his Roasted Fedo Anus Tartare? Hire a five-star Gallente master chef and watch crew performance improve. Commanding an Amarr ship? Best make sure the chapel is up to Theology Council standards, so the faithful have a place to bend knee. Commanding a Gallente ship? EVERY WALL IS STUDDED WITH PNEUMATIC COCKS, ALWAYS ALWAYS THRUSTING. Crew morale skyrockets! A Caldari vessel? Gotta have gambling facilities for the officers! A Minmatar ship? I don't know, just fumigate the fucking thing every now and then, and everyone's happy at not having fleas.
Crew is one thing - what about specialists? Why mash the 'scan' button on your d-scanner every 3 seconds, when you can enlist a sensors/sigint officer to give you a prompt heads-up if combat probes appear in scan range, or if a giant fleet of kill-crazed motherfuckers is about to descend upon you. Or alternately, how about crews with different risk tolerance levels? Hire an empire crew and try to take them into a wormhole? you'll find yourself facing a mutiny with modules offlining at random, at least until you replace them with a more grizzled and experienced crew.
/brainstorm