Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: scagga on 19 May 2011, 19:20
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Purpose of thread:
More of an information thread rather than 'hey you this'-'hey you that' thread. More like one of the more civil scrapheap challenge conflict monitoring threads. It's more for updating on fact rather than doing root-cause analysis of the possible purpose/objectives/bullshittery that different sides / non-aligned may perceive.
So, I've been reading this here thread here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380
As with many of my attention span it can, at times, be a bit of an exercise to accurately ascertain the on-goings of this conflict of interest. Redundancy in speech and all.
Whilst Jade is posting the odd summary post and trying to put out a timeline, I would appreciate it if the relevant parties would give concise OOC multi-source feedback as practicable here.
My current understanding is that:
1- Star Fraction have wardec'd Moira, who are operating in overlapping area and treading on each other's toes
2- Moira is receiving tacit assistance from Veto & Rote Kapelle
3- Combat is mainly station/trap based, but there is a Moira. pos that has been on the receiving end of a couple of early assaults by the Star Fraction. At this stage the weaponry is mostly out of operation but skirmishes continue.
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*grabs popcorn*
been enjoying the hell out of this so far :)
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I'm amused that I'm hearing more about this them I am about nullsec.
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/me reaches over Silas' shoulder and steals some popcorn.
Been semi following this and it has been interesting so far.
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There aren't a lot of RP groups to shoot at these days and the viable ones are already shooting at each other :eek:
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There aren't a lot of RP groups to shoot at these days and the viable ones are already shooting at each other :eek:
There aren't? I thought there are lots of groups, but they just don't shoot at each other for whatever reason.
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There aren't a lot of RP groups to shoot at these days and the viable ones are already shooting at each other :eek:
There aren't? I thought there are lots of groups, but they just don't shoot at each other for whatever reason.
Perhaps its closer to the truth to say that there are not a lot of large RP groups that like being shot at.
So, when something like this happens it is always nice to get some updates.
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I sort of had Seri point out about RK assisting the Sansha during the live events, and now working alongside Moira. Heh. :yar:
I think it's less of a RP war and just a standard EVE war?
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Its definitely an RP war.
Our reasons for declaring on Moira were firmly rooted in the in character perspective and idealism of the Star Fraction. Basically Moira had already aggressed one of our vessels in nullsec (earning the -10) and a few weeks later took to messing with out engagements against the local pirates with bumping, prank locking and general local goading to gcc etc. This was fine to a degree and expected and we chased them about a bit but then...
Moira declared that Pelille space was theirs and closed to us and Free Captains "were not welcome there".
It was a red rag to the bull of our institutional RP and we had a snap vote of the directorate (which was confirmed a week after by full open vote of the membership in council) and immediately declared war to allow us to freely engage Moira vessels in nullsec and began steps to move our operations over to Pelille to show that our transit, commerce and general operations could not be dictated by any Federal bullyboy in lowsec.
Tactically, the war was about ensuring we'd not be losing sec level to shoot at Moira and to dissuade them from messing with our ships while we were fighting the main pirates in the area.
Strategically, sure we knew that by moving into their HQ system and putting up a Drug-manufacturing industry a few hundred thousand klicks from their base would be a provocation in turn and draw them out perhaps.
Ideologically, well, we're demonstrating that Freespacers cannot be denied access to systems without consequences on the attempted road-blockers.
For what its worth we've enjoyed the Moira blogs, tweets, rp spin and such immensely and it got loads of our players logging in for the summer eager to teach the "federal fascists" a lesson in real politic.
Current status is interesting. We had begun to win the war in earnest last week and felt it was moving towards a conclusion with the likely destruction of the Moira HQ tower in Pelille. But then Moira received surprise reinforcement from Rote Kapelle and Veto corp (and accidently from Rooks and Kings but we think thats purely coincidental) and SF took some major isk losses from hotdrops/surprise ganks whatever you want to call them and we've taken a step back for a couple of days assessing options while leaving the war and blockade in place.
Last I saw last night (had an early night) was that the Moira tower still hadn't been completely repaired but Moira were tooling around with a few guardians trying to complete the job.
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Thing is though please don't try to reach the conclusion this is not an RP war because non-rp'ers have muscled into it. The reality is that it IS very much an RP war declared for purely RP reasons to support the RP of the entities involves acting according to their indentity and belief-systems in-game.
Its the nature of eve that people call friends when things are going wrong and escalation is inevitable, but that does not discredit or ruin the essential seed of creative roleplay at the heart of such conflicts.
SF vs Moira will end in one of two ways. Either we'll have proved the endurance of freespace ethics and radical commercial interest in Placid and outlast Moira + allies ... or Moira will gain dominance over the Fraction and keep Soter's pledge of forcing us out of the region as a "unwelcome destabalizing factor".
Where I think its particularly interesting is it has already highlighted some fascinating comparisons and contrasts between Federal RP and Anarchist RP. The public demonstration and recognition of the Fractions democratic decision-making and voices of the Free Captains make us look like paragons of egalitarian democracy compared to some of the rigid militarist hierarchies of our foes ... which I think asks some interesting questions of Gallente Federation roleplay corporations and those that play characters relishing and celebrating the ideals of the federation political freedoms.
And also provides (nodding at Silas) great mileage for those from non Gallente backgrounds looking for proof of hypocrisy in the vaunted ideals of the Federation.
All in all its great stuff and I love it.
Important posts on the thread btw. I provide direct links past the noise. Like all exciting conflicts it does attract a fair bit of offtopic random trolling by uninvolved people but skip past that .. the meat and drink is good.
Soter's Opening post (sets the terms of the war etc)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=1#1
Soter updates with some kills and Titan sighting
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=1#27
Our first public report (war so far)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=2#58
Our second public report (post veto/kapelle intervention)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=2#60
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=3#61
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=3#62
Timeline of the conflict
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=5#148
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=5#149
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=5#150
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I sort of had Seri point out about RK assisting the Sansha during the live events, and now working alongside Moira. Heh. :yar:
Thats probably worthy of another thread perhaps. I believe the standard RK line is "we did it for lols so it doesn't count as rp" ... but I guess that wouldn't really fly with any character who took actions in space AS rp? End of the day I've got no real problem seeing RK as Sansha loyalists and its actually an interesting development of the storyline that General Soter might be working with Sansha's agents to deny freespace in Gallente Lowsec.
Nobody can say its not a summer of strange bedfellows!
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can I get the readers digest of that Jade?
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can I get the readers digest of that Jade?
The short version.
Moira shoot SF get set red.
SF shoot Moira.
Moira bait SF and interfere with our fighting.
Moira say "you aren't allowed in our system."
SF say "wardec" we aren't gonna do what you tell us.
SF die in a fire for a week.
Moira die in a bigger fire for a week.
SF raise the stakes by assaulting the Moira HQ tower.
Moira propose ceasefire (refused) and offer their surrender terms (rejected) by the council of free captains.
Rote Kapelle and Veto deploy to protect the Moira tower (helping rep it a bit)
SF die in a fire to hotdrops.
Tower is currently undergoing repair (slowly)
Today we've seen the first transfer of actual combat pilots from Rote Kapelle to Moira so we imagine this will be a new theme.
As yet Moira/Rote/Veto have conducted zero offensive activities themselves against SF infrastructure.
So state of the war. There is a pause for reflection as Moira try to repair their tower and SF make plans for future operations against a far larger threat than initially assessed.
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And there is some contention over VETO's actual involvement I take it? Since pretty much everyone in veto has been denying it being anything other then opportunity.
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And there is some contention over VETO's actual involvement I take it? Since pretty much everyone in veto has been denying it being anything other then opportunity.
Not really any credible contention.
We witnessed their logistics ships active on the Moira tower.
They have been part of several direct interventions in support of Moira
Verone himself was deeply involved in trying to negotiate a ceasefire for Moira.
At this point the screen-shots, kill-mails, witness statement, chat logs etc etc all add up to pretty conclusive proof of full engagement and I think there is a little actual chance of anybody believing otherwise.
One potential motive for claiming "random opportunism" would probably be to remove Veto from the likely PR consequences of a formal Moira defeat ... ie if they were "not involved" they have nothing at stake etc.
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Ahh, well then, I stand corrected.
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[mod]Please don't let this thread go pear-shaped. We're keeping an eye on it, of course.[/mod]
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Thank you for the overview.
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I sort of had Seri point out about RK assisting the Sansha during the live events, and now working alongside Moira. Heh. :yar:
I think it's less of a RP war and just a standard EVE war?
All fair to point out character's perceived inconsistencies, but I'd not view this as anything other than an RP war. Ideally the characters one roleplays are not unidimensional, as much as one isn't usually unidimensional and consistent in the real world. There are plausible IC reasons for all actions taken so far in my view and I would be happy to elucidate my view on why if it is desired.
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At this point the screen-shots, kill-mails, witness statement, chat logs etc etc all add up to pretty conclusive proof of full engagement and I think there is a little actual chance of anybody believing otherwise.
Could we have some of those as is appropriate?
Particularly screenshots, as they help flesh out this conflict. Killmails/battles that are influential to the direction the war takes.
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At this point the screen-shots, kill-mails, witness statement, chat logs etc etc all add up to pretty conclusive proof of full engagement and I think there is a little actual chance of anybody believing otherwise.
Could we have some of those as is appropriate?
Particularly screenshots, as they help flesh out this conflict. Killmails/battles that are influential to the direction the war takes.
Screen shots are on the summit thread.
Killmails are on the relevant killboards.
Witness statements .. ditto summit thread.
Chatlogs - at this point not open to public perusal (but have been shown to the free captains who needed to assess their votes)
I'll keep my eye open for some nice screenshots as things develop further.
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All fair to point out character's perceived inconsistencies, but I'd not view this as anything other than an RP war. Ideally the characters one roleplays are not unidimensional, as much as one isn't usually unidimensional and consistent in the real world. There are plausible IC reasons for all actions taken so far in my view and I would be happy to elucidate my view on why if it is desired.
Go ahead Scagga, I'd be interested to hear your take on it.
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Thats probably worthy of another thread perhaps. I believe the standard RK line is "we did it for lols so it doesn't count as rp" ... but I guess that wouldn't really fly with any character who took actions in space AS rp? End of the day I've got no real problem seeing RK as Sansha loyalists and its actually an interesting development of the storyline that General Soter might be working with Sansha's agents to deny freespace in Gallente Lowsec.
I think the standard RK line is "if it bring us kills in space we don't mind how we get there." Speaking for the RPing minority in RK might be a bit of an overstatement, but from my perspective, RK engaged Sansha directly when Soter/Moira. were in RK, once he left and our friends in Reaper Industries, whom had connections with some of the Sansha Loyalists, RK engaged both Loyalists, Pirates, and Anti-Sansha forces in Lowsec close to TXW. The RP around this can't easily be summed up in black and white as "we are/aren't Sansha Loyalists." Instead we are actually anarchists, more true to the sense of that movement. What I mean by that is we fan the fires of chaos and death, using the means at our disposal. In fact maybe the instability caused by Sansha's push into highsec suited our goals at destabilizing some of the governments, perhaps furthering our agents in their missions.
Long-standing dislike is inherent in the -SF- to RK relationship, fueled not only by current events but numerous previous ones, ie Misan's robbing/defection to RK from -SF- and the fallout surrounding that, "bring it in space" requests by both sides mostly marred by the fact that STIM/RK and -SF- operate mostly in separate TZ's, our Euro TZ being weak, while -SF-'s USTZ is also weak. Jade's near-constant posting about us being non-relevant, fotm, risk averse etc, our rebuttals of the same. It shouldn't come as a surprise that we'd be willing to go out of our way to try to get -SF- kills. We all know, or should know that RK erupts in colorful killboard comments when we lose ships to -SF- and similar good job ones when we kill -SF-
While this might change in the future, RK is not currently blue to Moira. We dropped in, from what I understand, in the hopes we could get a few kills on the -SF- forces attacking the POS. It turns out we were successful there, that desire to kill, specifically -SF- largely drawn from the animosity between our two organizations, and not because we care to directly support Moira's goals, the far more interesting angle here would be to ask Soter why he flew with an anarchist organization for so long and now is pro-fed? Seems an odd juxtaposition.
Today we've seen the first transfer of actual combat pilots from Rote Kapelle to Moira so we imagine this will be a new theme.
I hadn't seen that yet, what pilots have transferred?
Rote Kapelle and Veto deploy to protect the Moira tower (helping rep it a bit)
SF die in a fire to hotdrops.
As yet Moira/Rote/Veto have conducted zero offensive activities themselves against SF infrastructure.
So state of the war. There is a pause for reflection as Moira try to repair their tower and SF make plans for future operations against a far larger threat than initially assessed.
1, It's arguable that RK and Veto deployed to protect the Moira tower, and instead deployed to kill -SF- assets.
2, it's not hotdrops, it was a single jump bridge, so a hotdrop. Unless jade is really pushing the, imho, completely garbage personal definition of what a hotdrop is.
3, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for us to attack SF infrastructure unless a very juicy target presented itself that we could not pass up, and then I expect we would be also prepared for your counter of bringing in Rooks N Kings.
A state of war exists between -SF- and Moira, Jade grossly overstates when including RK or Veto in that swath of "war." Jade also says "a far larger threat than initially assessed," only -SF- included RK in their Ostinhell Apocalypse Now poster, so it's not like you haven't been thinking about us. (how sweet, we have been returning the favor)
TLDR; RK rp is pretty lite, but is well summed by Cass' post in the IGS thread, "To the extent that Stimulus corp can speak for Rote Kapelle (a questionable position, to be sure), we are simply here to make your ship (for all values of 'you') explode." -SF- placed themselves in a position where we were in a position to make their ships explode. We made it happen.
Jade -> I am unsure if your question if Cass' knows what mendacity means was a truthful one. Prior to a bit of one on one with Google, I had no idea what it meant, but it seems to fit well, untruthfulness, so "Jade's mendacity (untruthfulness, the tendency to be untruthful) is staggering, makes sense to me. Just wanted to know if the definition provided there is not yours as well.
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Also, this has to stop now. Somebody somewhere started it and now everyone's doing it.
It's risk averse - not adverse.
/grammarnazi
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Without getting into a lengthy discussion about the ic ins and outs of the IGS propaganda from both sides etc.
From our perspective Veto/Kapelle intervention saved our war-enemies Tower (on that occassion) so it is simply natural to bundle you together. That and the fact we learned that Moira had formally requested aid etc etc and Verone saying his "we'll bury you" style comments etc.
The use of the term "hot-drop" is loose. I explained on IGS I used it for each "gank" basically because I couldn't be bothered to use to more accurate term "surprise overwhelming gank in force" or something. Just saying hot-drop is I'll grant you a bit lazy, but hey, it seems a broadly fitting term.
On the general grudge match nonsense. To be honest I largely ignore it. Whenever anybody begins to tell me how much they hate my guts on an ooc level I roll my eyes and tune out.
I consider it all IC and judge things on that basis. I don't think its that healthy or productive to get genuinely annoyed with other players in an online game.
Star Fraction players on the whole are happy to see Rote and Veto as the psychotic NBSI bad guys backing our Fascist enclosurist enemies and play on that level. The vast majority of our current player base have no idea who Bacc/Sakura and others of the ex SF era actually are and so to them its just a bunch of random pirates backing the Federal police Moira in amusing RP fashion.
So I think are mistaken in saying the OOC dislike is inherent in the relationship. From SF's perspective I can honestly tell you nobody cares anymore. It was four years ago. The whole reason I contacted Verone last week was to suggest that we just move on from the local smacktalk and fight without the vitreol *shrug* and that mainly because it was actually confusing our new players as to what the cause was.
Bottom line. SF doesn't have a grudge against Rote Kapelle. I know some might find that difficult to believe, but we simply never really discuss you guys on voice unless its some strange forum flashpoint or local show that causes a new member to say .... "who the heck are those guys?"
On infrastructure and such, yeah, I know what mean about the clash of the timezones but I think Rote+Veto is now potentially strong enough to make the attack if they wanted to. If it happens we'll have a damned good fight - if it doesn't then. To the IGS propaganda-mobile!
But ooc-wise its all good fun.
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I was under the impression that Soter had cut his ties to the Federation some time ago.
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From our perspective Veto/Kapelle intervention saved our war-enemies Tower (on that occassion) so it is simply natural to bundle you together. That and the fact we learned that Moira had formally requested aid etc etc and Verone saying his "we'll bury you" style comments etc.
Jade, your wording here isn't a "from our perspective" manner, it's from a this is how things are manner. Granted a grain of salt should be taken since coming from your lips and thus taken from you perspective.
The use of the term "hot-drop" is loose. I explained on IGS I used it for each "gank" basically because I couldn't be bothered to use to more accurate term "surprise overwhelming gank in force" or something. Just saying hot-drop is I'll grant you a bit lazy, but hey, it seems a broadly fitting term.
I really, honestly, think "gank" is the word you are looking for, both shorter than hot-drop and meaning overwhelming force applied to the target. Hot-drop is used, traditionally, to indicate either being jump bridged in on or dropped by capitals through a cyno, the determining factor here being a cyno.
On the general grudge match nonsense. To be honest I largely ignore it. Whenever anybody begins to tell me how much they hate my guts on an ooc level I roll my eyes and tune out.
I consider it all IC and judge things on that basis. I don't think its that healthy or productive to get genuinely annoyed with other players in an online game.
I agree here, as I feel mostly the same way, though there are a few people who I really don't like in a online game, stupid, kind of way. IC is what I was referring to, RK and to some extent Veto apparently, would go out of their ways to destroy some -SF- ships.
Star Fraction players on the whole are happy to see Rote and Veto as the psychotic NBSI bad guys backing our Fascist enclosurist enemies and play on that level. The vast majority of our current player base have no idea who Bacc/Sakura and others of the ex SF era actually are and so to them its just a bunch of random pirates backing the Federal police Moira in amusing RP fashion.
I think are mistaking in saying the OOC dislike is inherent in the relationship. From SF's perspective I can honestly tell you nobody cares anymore. It was four years ago. The whole reason I contacted Verone last week was to suggest that we just move on from the local smacktalk and fight without the vitreol *shrug* and that mainly because it was actually confusing our new players at to what the cause was.
We have a disclaimer thread on our forums, was confusing our newer players as well. I wasn't in STIM for the -SF- stuff, so it was nice to brush up on. I was referring to the more recent flashpoints, but I see your point. I still consider it inherent in the relationship, perhaps I overstate if I said between RK and -SF- and instead meant STIM and -SF-.
Bottom line. SF doesn't have a grudge against Rote Kapelle. I know some might find that difficult to believe, but we simply never really discuss you guys on voice unless its some strange forum flashpoint or local show that causes a new member to say .... "who the heck are those guys?"
I'd say RK on an OOC level doesn't have a grudge against -SF- but I'm not sure how true that would be, some level of animosity definitely exists between specifically, Jade, and some members of STIM, though not RK as a whole. Outside of STIM I doubt anyone cares too much. Maybe Sak. In any case,
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On the general grudge match nonsense. To be honest I largely ignore it. Whenever anybody begins to tell me how much they hate my guts on an ooc level I roll my eyes and tune out.
You ignore it when people tell you they don't hate you OOC too. :P You never replied to my mail. Does this mean beers at fanfest is a no-go? :(
I don't think its that healthy or productive to get genuinely annoyed with other players in an online game.
Generally agree.
Star Fraction players on the whole are happy to see Rote and Veto as the psychotic NBSI bad guys backing our Fascist enclosurist enemies and play on that level. The vast majority of our current player base have no idea who Bacc/Sakura and others of the ex SF era actually are and so to them its just a bunch of random pirates backing the Federal police Moira in amusing RP fashion.
And I think most of us are fine with SF not getting who we are. For the few of us who do RP, I think the general sense is that we view SF as putting a pretty face on the fight without much actual fight, and view ourselves as casting off the PR front and fancy RoE in order to roll up our sleeves and get dirty speaking with ammunition rather than words and press releases. And I think pretty much from day 1 of Stimulus that's been the difference. Incidentally, if they don't know who Sak or I are tell them to load up your top 10 list on the killboard (http://www.jericho-fraction.net/killboard//?a=alliance_detail&all_id=90&view=pilot_kills). :)
So I think are mistaken in saying the OOC dislike is inherent in the relationship. From SF's perspective I can honestly tell you nobody cares anymore. It was four years ago. The whole reason I contacted Verone last week was to suggest that we just move on from the local smacktalk and fight without the vitreol *shrug* and that mainly because it was actually confusing our new players as to what the cause was.
So wait, does this mean we can get beers after all? :D
Bottom line. SF doesn't have a grudge against Rote Kapelle. I know some might find that difficult to believe, but we simply never really discuss you guys on voice unless its some strange forum flashpoint or local show that causes a new member to say .... "who the heck are those guys?"
Not surprising. 4 years is a long time. Kinda crazy to think that it's actually been that long.
But ooc-wise its all good fun.
Here's to that.
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Well perhaps I was a little bit over-nice to say "from our perspective". Perhaps "from any perspective" would have been more accurate. Undoubtedly the Veto/Rote intervention did save the Moira tower at that time so since thats generally our measure of your inclusion its probably objectively fair. But I mean really, its arguing about minutae really.
On the word "gank" ... you are probably right - but I just don't really like the word in an IC sense. I think it has whiny complainy connotations "omg man I was ganked!" and its tantamount to complaining about being blobbed or something. Basically its not a word that I like to use with Jade.
With regard to the general Stim thing well, maybe people will get over it eventually. I think for the health of those involved it does need to be gotten out of the system. Once it is who knows? We might manage to have fights without all the silliness in local afterwards.
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All fair to point out character's perceived inconsistencies, but I'd not view this as anything other than an RP war. Ideally the characters one roleplays are not unidimensional, as much as one isn't usually unidimensional and consistent in the real world. There are plausible IC reasons for all actions taken so far in my view and I would be happy to elucidate my view on why if it is desired.
Go ahead Scagga, I'd be interested to hear your take on it.
Moira.
On the topic of Moira.'s tacit (I call it that) cooperation with Veto/Rote Kapelle, there are many quite plausible ways to look at it IC, which I'm sure have occured to many but have not been mentioned here yet. I would not be suggesting that any of the possibilities mentioned are true, but they are plausible in my view.
One could infer, for instance, that Moira leadership is to a degree unscrupulous in their choice of friends, ready to turn a blind eye to the legal transgressions of those who they would accept help from. Alternatively one could infer that Moira's leadership is made of people who view genuine friendship as superseding security status, which is a human behaviour. They may even be planning to claim plausible deniability, stating that Veto. & RK happened to be in the right place at the right time and have their own reasons, enemy of my enemy etc etc etc.
Is it believable? That depends on your character, and isn't grounds for questioning whether it is of IC nature in my view.
The Star Fraction
The Star Fraction is doing what, in my view, it has 'always' done. I can't claim intricate knowledge of their workings other than what is in public domain. The pattern tends to be that they attach themselves to an area of interest, where they aim to live by their ideals, even when it frequently ruffles feathers. If an entity bothers them, they bite, and use what qualities they have aiming to achieve objectives they set themselves. The entity in this scenario is Moira.
Rote Kapelle
Logan Fyreite said it best. His organisation acts in its own interests with objectives that are independent of those of the NPC factions. His outfit generally doesn't communicate in antiquated english in space. From an IC point of view, I would say there is an element of bloodlust in his followers, which is evidenced in how they take delight in violence.
Veto.
Distinctively classy pirates who exude Guristas sympathies. Of course, they are not tied under Guristas authority and ROE, and are free to choose their friends and their enemies. As far as I know, Veto has no rulebooks that tell them not to shoot valid targets if they are known to be nearby, and I have the perception that as an organisation they are well connected to the grapevine. That they should choose to shoot targets and by doing so help a corporation they view as friends (or 'less enemies') is up to their leadership and does not have to be interpreted as anything that deviates from an IC action. IC Verone has personal flair in his style of leadership and as such is perceived by myself to be at liberty to take however an eccentric style of engagement he wants for his corporation, manipulating the outcomes of other conflicts directly or indirectly towards his interests.
On Sansha/Guristas loyalty:
I don't agree with the view that one needs to be consistent/rigid in their loyalty to be a 'geniuine' rp'er, much like one isn't a disqualified from voting if they change their vote, or motivation for voting in real world elections.
Capsuleers can and do lose their fear of the nations from which they originate / factions with which they affiliate. They are powerful, and may view the empires as impotent to oppose them or hunt them down. Surely one does not become a 'Sansha loyalist' just because they fired at certain people in a certain scenario? The alternative objective of slaughter is valid and in keeping with the frequently observed murderous nature in capsuleers.
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It is noted that the reasons these entities meet in conflict do not necessarily rule out co-existent OOC motivations. This is not particularly important in my view. OOC love is not a prerequisite for 'bona fide' roleplay - EvE is a passionately played game. I've seen plenty of past evidence of OOC acrimony between the involved parties, but I can't see how that definitely invalidates me interpreting their actions as IC. Perhaps there would have been different events if there were extra-harmonious OOC relations, but does that really matter?
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For the few of us who do RP, I think the general sense is that we view SF as putting a pretty face on the fight without much actual fight, and view ourselves as casting off the PR front and fancy RoE in order to roll up our sleeves and get dirty speaking with ammunition rather than words and press releases. And I think pretty much from day 1 of Stimulus that's been the difference.
Thats actually a fairly profound summary of the split in many ways. From our perspective (old-timers mainly) we'd see that when Stim gave up the PR side you were losing half your weaponry as anarchists and simply becoming thugs rather than revolutionaries. It is a difficult balance though - without firepower it doesn't matter what you say (which is the extreme problem we see with many IGS posters and minor corps etc) but without PR and a persuasive message it doesn't matter what you shoot either (which is the problem with most pvp corps essentially being essentially faceless killmail grinding statistics monsters)
Now we could easily have a reasonable discussion about the degree to which both sides have lost overall influence by losing one extreme talent or the other in this equation.
Would I prefer SF to be a 400 man alliance with a supercapital fleet fleet that was capable of hot-dropping the heck out of Evoke/Ewoks and the Goon renters? Abstractly sure I would.
But would I be able to guarentee the discipline of engagement ideology and communications standards and general intellectual quality of the organization then? Its doubtful.
Would 400 people actually "get" the idealism of the roleplay we cherish in this game and see themselves as anarchist revolutionaries seeking freespace liberation?
Almost certainly not.
I can see your perspective though I really can. In Stim certainly you are charging round shooting people and pretty much behaving like we were in Mito era SF just with flashier ships and larger gangs. But I do think your lack of politics has weakened you in terms of influence in Eve as a whole in turn.
I loved the period where you and I were the terror of the RP nationalists and everyone trembled when the black ships of the Star Fraction turned up - but the reason it happened was a mix of politics, PR and combat capability. I don't think either of us can have quite that buzz and impact again now without blending the two. We killed a lot of ships sure, but we had a genuinely hilarious time doing it and the brewing up of propaganda posters, campaign stunts, vids and general PR collateral was a big part of that.
So in some ways I think we both have a task at hand Bacc. You need to find a roleplay ethos for Rote Kapelle and some kind of consistent PR message to give meaning to the movement.
And we need to keep recruiting and practising and hiring new free captains attracted by our public relations expertise and get us up to the big fleets of last year again prior to the tomahawk craziness and dx4 implosion.
But in our hearts I suspect we both know if the split hadn't occured four years ago we'd probably have been the ones to properly kill the CVA together rather than fooling about in syndicate and blasting Sev3rance to bits on the sidelines.
*shrugs* but thats life I guess :)
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was referring to moderated post ...
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was referring to moderated post ...
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Jade and Bacc and Logan seem to have just concluded that there isn't much OOC animosity between RK and SF anymore. Then you come along and sum up the conflict by saying everyone hates SF IC and OOC. Did you read their discussion? Was actually pretty interesting.
This really looks like it's about to devolve from thoughtful discussion/debate to 'he said she said.'
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I can say that Logan speaks for Stimulus corporation, as he is the corporation CEO, not the executor of the alliance. I won't speak on behalf of Rote Kapelle of course. But whatever their public position is, that's up for them to decide.
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Should I simply lay down on the ground like a snake and crawl to Jade Constantine's lap, while he posts an entire page of text on these forums? No, I believe I am morally obligated to clarify some of these issues for the general roleplaying community.
Verone will need to post here, or needs to grant me permission, for the specifics of this whole clusterfark to be revealed. I can't speak further on the details, but everything I've thus far typed in this thread is fully supported by chatlogs and combat data.
With respect, the onus is on you to clear your name in a calm and objective manner, with evidence as appropriate, if you want it to be cleared. It is more helpful to you to take that route than using accusative language and appearing somewhat rattled by the idea that someone might be misrepresenting your standpoint on an internet forum.
I can't see you or your corporation being dragged through the dirt in this thread. If you see something wrong, address it. If there are problems of a personal nature going on in the background, trying to address it here will be a mistake.
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I don't have the time or the interest to correct Jade Constantine's fabrications line by line. It's enough to say that they are, indeed, fabrications or salted with some grains of truth to make them look like a historical account of the situation.
When I have time, as I just said earlier in this thread, I will provide a more comprehensive account of the situation.
Because several of these topics are of a confidential nature regarding Verone's negotiations with Jade Constantine, and the circumstances therein, I can't speak more as of this time.
I can however, caution the audience of this thread from accepting SF's version of the story.
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Jade and Bacc and Logan seem to have just concluded that there isn't much OOC animosity between RK and SF anymore. Then you come along and sum up the conflict by saying everyone hates SF IC and OOC. Did you read their discussion? Was actually pretty interesting. This really looks like it's about to devolve from thoughtful discussion/debate to 'he said she said.'
I don't think it needs to go wrong really Victoria. I'm certainly not interested in arguing here. I think we had a quite an interesting discussion and I'm happy for it to continue. Though Julianus is my IC enemy there is no need to wind him up further now. I'm quite content for him to have his say when he is able to speak plainly about the things that are bothering him.
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I can say that Logan speaks for Stimulus corporation, as he is the corporation CEO, not the executor of the alliance.
Cassius goes away for one fishing trip to the Arctic Circle and there is a coup... This will likely not end well.
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I can say that Logan speaks for Stimulus corporation, as he is the corporation CEO, not the executor of the alliance. I won't speak on behalf of Rote Kapelle of course. But whatever their public position is, that's up for them to decide.
Usagi stole my thunder on this, but w00t, bloodless coup! I was just waiting for the fish to pull Cass away. We'll see if he ever returns from said "trip." MWAHAHAHA...
Okay, no really, I'm not the CEO of STIM :evil:
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Aww, well I saw you posting and assumed it was you. :P
Cassius it is then XD
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Thats actually a fairly profound summary of the split in many ways. From our perspective (old-timers mainly) we'd see that when Stim gave up the PR side you were losing half your weaponry as anarchists and simply becoming thugs rather than revolutionaries.
And to a large degree, I think that was the intention of our original RP. If SF are the revolutionaries, we're the nasty bastards that broke off from the revolution we viewed as too delicate for our tastes, cast aside the RoE and started shooting everything we saw as wrong with the world--namely, just about everything that didn't join us. Think of it perhaps in terms of Qutb's writings that provided Al-Qaeda with a "loophole" justifying killing other Muslims despite it being against the Koran. That sort of thing.
Would I prefer SF to be a 400 man alliance with a supercapital fleet fleet that was capable of hot-dropping the heck out of Evoke/Ewoks and the Goon renters? Abstractly sure I would.
But would I be able to guarentee the discipline of engagement ideology and communications standards and general intellectual quality of the organization then? Its doubtful.
Nevermind making yourself a target. 400 is a small fish these days, and 400 with a supercapital fleet has a target on their back. Take it from someone in a ~260 man alliance with supercapitals that has hotdropped Goon pets.
Would 400 people actually "get" the idealism of the roleplay we cherish in this game and see themselves as anarchist revolutionaries seeking freespace liberation?
Almost certainly not.
Absolutely not, and this is where another facet of at least my personal take on STUGH comes into play. As I see things, we don't care if our rank and file can recite the manifesto or at the end of the day even go home and care about it. They fight for it in space whether they care about it or not, and are on our side. Mercenaries to a degree, though we don't pay them in anything but blood and the loot and spoils of war.
But I do think your lack of politics has weakened you in terms of influence in Eve as a whole in turn.
And at the end of the day, I don't think we're really after influencing EVE as a whole. Even from an IC perspective, you could say we look at it as a fairly insurmountable task, but one we're going to dedicate our time to because we wouldn't want it any other way. We don't have any delusions of grandeur or expectations that we will ever make headline news in EVE, though once in a blue moon we might cause a few ripples in the pond. And honestly, it's probably better that way. If we were making headlines, we'd be a target.
Warning - while you were typing 8 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Jesus christ people. Wow. What is it about SF-related threads that bring all the boys to the yard? I haven't had that many replies while typing a post since the Gorion RP Rape thread on Chatsubo (I still read through that gem once in a while, and Gorion still gets shit for it about once a week).
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Jesus christ people. Wow. What is it about SF-related threads that bring all the boys to the yard?
I'm just here for the milkshakes.
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* Goes back to concession stand for more popcorn*
This is why I'm a fan of as little OOC interaction as possible, btw.
Hey Silas, grab me some popcorn and a quafe while you're up will you?
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[mod]Cleaned up for now. We may choose to moderate additional posts, including those already made, once we can wade through it all.[/mod]
A few reminders:
1/ Don't post on Backstage while angry. As the FAQ (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=16.0) notes:
It's a safe bet that if you finish typing and think to yourself: "Hah! I showed HIM!" you should probably not post. Other danger signs: personal attacks on the player, including the player's style of RP (i.e. "of course you think that, you RP an Amarr"), insinuations that anyone who disagrees with you is a moron.
2/ Verbatim again from the FAQ:
DO NOT RESPOND TO FLAMES OR TROLLS. Report the post to the staff by clicking the report button at the bottom right corner of the post, close the thread and leave it alone. We ask everybody to help in keeping the culture here courteous, and that means not responding to people trying to draw others into pointless flamefests.
I'm not saying that people have responded to posts they've reported. I'm saying that people have clearly allowed themselves to get drawn into pointless flamefests. To be as clear as I can: don't do this sort of thing here. PM each other, take it to your own alliance's diplomacy boards, post it on another forum, or whatever else, but OOC flamebaiting and flaming will not be allowed, including trying to get as close to the edge as possible without going over, because, as we've previously noted, that's already too far.
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[mod]Unlocking after having moved posts into their own thread (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2275.0). Be mindful of the rules, or it will get locked very quickly.[/mod]
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A few thoughts:
Cassius:
we are simply here to make your ship (for all values of 'you') explode."
And of COURSE we want to get in on -SF- kills. This conflict has been a long time coming. :)
NOTE:
I forgot how much I can enjoy reading your posts Jade. It's good to see you and SF again.
As to the RP stuff... STIM is RP lite for sure these days. So while I was never a hard core RP type... I believe it optimal to integrate the story (as it is a very real and interesting chain of events dating back over a span of years) somehow. I think Jade, Bacch and Logan are doing it right.
This is good stuff guys and based on some interesting history. Let's not fuck it up.
Game On.
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So I think are mistaken in saying the OOC dislike is inherent in the relationship. From SF's perspective I can honestly tell you nobody cares anymore. It was four years ago. The whole reason I contacted Verone last week was to suggest that we just move on from the local smacktalk and fight without the vitreol *shrug* and that mainly because it was actually confusing our new players as to what the cause was.
.......If it happens we'll have a damned good fight - if it doesn't then. To the IGS propaganda-mobile!
But ooc-wise its all good fun.
This pretty much sums up my take as well. But hey... who am I.... v0v
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bah wrong thread splitoff.
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A few thoughts:
Cassius:
we are simply here to make your ship (for all values of 'you') explode."
And of COURSE we want to get in on -SF- kills. This conflict has been a long time coming. :)
NOTE:
I forgot how much I can enjoy reading your posts Jade. It's good to see you and SF again.
As to the RP stuff... STIM is RP lite for sure these days. So while I was never a hard core RP type... I believe it optimal to integrate the story (as it is a very real and interesting chain of events dating back over a span of years) somehow. I think Jade, Bacch and Logan are doing it right.
This is good stuff guys and based on some interesting history. Let's not fuck it up.
Game On.
Yeah good stuff Tyzzara. Bah, I'm increasingly thinking I fucked up this situation quite a lot by going to Verone rather than straight to you guys talking about trying to reduce the ooc stress. Screw the middle man in future / nobody does anything for nothing.
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little update on this war
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#219 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#219)
Full story is on IGS ... the short version:
Moira HQ destroyed in Pelille.
SF returns to a decent 3-1 kill ratio (ahead on ISK blah blah blah)
Rote Kapelle wardecced us then didn't pay the bill after two weeks because we were making nice inroads on their mission runners)
Moira (appear) to have moved away 20 jumps to Sinq Liason.
We put the remains of their tower economic structures up for sale in the Moira lowsec market hub in agoze. (which seemed appropriate :)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1497906&page=3#61 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1497906&page=3#61)
At this point it'll either peter out after a while more of wardec but little contact or perhaps Soter will contact us for a formal surrender / ceasefire or something and as long as Veto has nothing to do with it this time it might be possible to do a decent IC end point.
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Star fractions activities have nothing to do with roleplay, and thus, we will not roleplay in response.
30 pilots vs. 6, good work mates. ;)
To clarify why this wardec has nothing to do with roleplay, Star Fraction set us 'red' while we were fighting for the GalFed during facwar. We were not notified of this standings change. we were fine with it, and set SF red in return.
At some undisclosed point in time, Moira was 'reset', again with no notification.
Moira still viewed SF as red. we targeted and destroyed one of their stealthbombers as a target of opportunity.
SF then gets 'offended' by this act, when it was in the first the aggressor entity, and then declares war on us unilaterally, with no demands issued besides me leaving my own corporation.
I've yet to see any significant roleplay develop from this.
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Star fractions activities have nothing to do with roleplay, and thus, we will not roleplay in response.
That is completely false and I would like you to retract the statement.
And to offer some light to your confusions Soter.
I’m not sure what you are referring to with 30 pilots vs 6. Eve is an unkind environment and we certainly haven’t complained when your alliances have massively outnumbered us at times. You shrug and get on with it thinking of how to better bring your focus in a time of your choosing.
Next, I do not see how you can say this is not an ideologically-motivated wardec given that it was enacted at the request of our pilots because you and your pilots told us in local that Pelille was “barred” to us and that is a complete slap in the face IC to free-captains of the Star Fraction who have played radical freespacers for the last eight years. We were fighting people for this IC reason before you rolled up your character Soter – and its quite inappropriate for you to doubt our IC motivations when we are fighting you for pretty damn clear reasons.
Re the standings changes there is no mystery. We have the Gallente Federation set red (and the Caldari Militia, and the 24th Crusade) we can make exceptions when friendly corporations join some of these entities but the default is red for nationalist militias – the Cosmopolite made a pretty informative post on this back when Empyrean Age went live.
When Moira left the Federal Militia you were magically neutral again because you had no such standings associated. You earned your specific red by aggression in 0.0 against a Fraction vessel. But the reason for this war was not that.
It was your own actions in Ostingele to interfere with our patrols against pirates (ironically) and the demand of your corp mates that we stay out of Pelille.
As for demands for surrender. We have never formally demanded you leave your own corporation and I will say to you here on an ooc level – its ridiculous, that would not be demanded of you because its deeply unrealistic to expect a player to leave his or her player group as a result of an IC conflict.
In most cases the limit of what we’d expect from you at this point would be an apology for the aggression / interference baiting – a recognition that progressive free-space agenda is commercially-viable and good for the Placid Region and an affirmation that you would refrain from baiting/aggressing our vessels in the future.
That in essence is what would have gotten you peace and spared your tower in Pelille had you not gotten Verone to try to “lean on us.”
And it’s the type of surrender term that I believe the captains of the fraction would agree with were it put before them in council this week.
So let’s be plain. This is not about your quitting moira or your organization being decapitated. We’ve had an IC war for IC reasons that has been conducted in a decent IC manner from our side (and in the main from your corp mates I must say). There is no shame in resolving it soon in a similar manner. We’ve proved our point I think – and we’re very happy with the outcome of the war. Now you need to decide if you want to come back for round two or seek a ceasefire on the very reasonable terms we are in the custom of offering in these circumstances.
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Let us consider, then, the roleplaying implications of this conflict.
Star Fraction has declared war on the only major anti-Sansha roleplaying corporation in existance, at a time specifically when it is dedicated to defeating the Sansha threat.
Sansha Kuvakei has explicitly declared the 'end of the Capsuleer era' and is focused on destroying or enslaving all capsuleers in existence, hacking capsule tech to do so.
Some of the early Star Fraction engagements were, in fact, in the incursion zones, where several of our pilots were located. Star Fraction attempted to engage and destroy these forces while they were fighting Sansha.
Now, if you do claim there was roleplay at work, Jade Constantine, then it would seem to be of a Pro-Sansha motivation.
However, you claim that you are in fact fighting 'federalists', when our charter explicitly forbids us from engaging in facwar while the Sansha threat exists. http://www.eve-moira.org/index.php?page=7
So, that leaves us with two options, your anarchist RP is a ruse and merely a cover for a covert Sansha RP campaign, or you're simply angry at me personally and wish to punish me for my statements on the IGS by removing me from my gaming community and Corporation. Something which, I'll let you know now, is impossible. Moira is a family and we will be together through whatever harassment or aggression from outside forces is levied against us.
Now, Jade, if you wish to discuss a end to hostilities between roleplaying corporations, since the source of these hostilities is so very ambiguous and difficult to explain to the larger RP community with any clarity, I'm more than eager to do so.
Edit: I eagerly await a response. Furthermore, I would like to put to rest your claims of us 'interfering' with anything at any point in Ostingele. Our killboards speak plainly enough of our hostile disposition to the Ostingele pirates. Once again, it would seem the motivations for this wardec are entirely OOC based.
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"We're the only Anti-Sansha Corp, therefor anyone fighting us must be pro-Sansha."
You blew up one of their ships, tried to provoke other fights. Then told them they weren't welcome in Pelille. They got a free-spacey hair up their butts and attacked you.
I fail to see how any of this isn't RP, especially from an "everything in space is IC" point of view.
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We did not provoke any fights.
Jade constantine attempted to provoke fights.
Of course, this is impossible to verify, as no shots were fired!
I fail to see how anything below weapons fire can justify a wardec to destroy a roleplaying corporation and gaming community. The only remainding explanation, as stated before, is OOC antipathy.
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Isn't Mebrithiel Ju'wien in Moira.?
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"We're the only Anti-Sansha Corp, therefor anyone fighting us must be pro-Sansha."
You blew up one of their ships, tried to provoke other fights. Then told them they weren't welcome in Pelille. They got a free-spacey hair up their butts and attacked you.
I fail to see how any of this isn't RP, especially from an "everything in space is IC" point of view.
Well, when the aggressor entity fails to provide any legitimate rationale for the acts of aggresion, we must -infer- their RP intentions from their actions. That is what I did in my post above.
Mebrithiel is in Moira, and we discussed the RP rationale for her joining. You should probably check her service history with the Synenose Accord if you want to dig deeper into that.
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You will have to remember people will go with the face value answer first, rather than digging around for private conversations and agreements. Mebs recently posted on Kuvakei's thread on the IGS about a date. I mean, that's going to stand out far more in the greater public arena than saying there were some agreements behind the scenes. RP has consequences, and all.
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Anyone who understands the brain of Mebrithiel knows that she loves to make those kinds of quips. Read her ship descriptions, ever? :P
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Well, when the aggressor entity fails to provide any legitimate rationale for the acts of aggresion, we must -infer- their RP intentions from their actions. That is what I did in my post above.
There are threadnaughts dedicated to providing said rationale, this is (or was) one of them. You're welcome to make IC accusations questioning their motives and claiming they're supporting Papa Sansha, but claiming OOC that there has been no RP involved in this conflict seems absurd to me - it's provoked plenty which I've enjoyed watching, even if it came with a healthy dose of OOC misunderstanding and drama.
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So on the Sansha issue – one problem to your perception is that we in the Fraction don’t tend to make a distinction between RP and non-RP corporations/alliances when it comes to action in space. Moira is not a significant power in the star cluster I think we can accept this.
There are far more impressive anti sansha corporations that do not consider themselves RP but they are “RP’ing the war against Sansha” in space every day. So there is no real mileage for you to appeal to us on the grounds that Moira is a keystone of the anti Sansha effort. Any carebear incursion-killing corp is doing more than Moira Soter. Its unfortunate perhaps but it is in-game (and thus IC) reality.
Beyond which, had you been fighting Sansha and not shooting Freespacers and baiting and interfering with our patrols against pirates in Placid – this war would never have happened; you do need to take some responsibility for the consequences of your actions – what made Moira shoot us when they should have been concentrating on the threat of Sansha ?
On specific hostility in incursion zones it can be considered another ambiguity really – if Julianus Soter IC really cared that much about Sansha fighting above all wouldn’t he be disgusted at the idea of fighting alongside Rote Kapelle who were quite famous for slaughtering fleets of anti sansha volunteers during the initial scripted events?
Its a bit of a double standard is it not to complain about Fraction chasing war targets into incursions while ignoring the historic role your allies have played in relation to the Sansha plotline?
I reject your conclusion completely that the Fraction is pro-sansha – you may consider that we are anti sansha to the same degree we are anti amarr and anti imperialist. We have not been convinced by your ic rhetoric that all must put aside differences and consider sansha the greatest evil in the star cluster. We consider the fate of a true slave to be no worse than the fate of a vitoc slave and it is foolish to ignore one to exclusion of all.
In this our outlook is quite similar to our allies in the Ushra’khan. We have helped fight incursions where direct massive uplift of planetary populations were involved as you know well – but it is not and never will override our primary roleplay ideology as freespacers in New Eden.
Again I reject your conclusions re “covert sansha” rp and again would suggest your character himself might more easily be tainted in this fashion by your involvement with Rote Kapelle who are as we have seen, active supporters of Sansha when it suits them.
I also repeat, there was no intention whatsoever on our part to remove you from your gaming community. I accept one of our members may have suggested such a thing erroneously in local chat but it would certainly not have been an ooc suggestion and I assure you the council of free captains (our player base) would not expect such an element of surrender from a defeated opponent. It simply makes no sense (and thus would never be required as an element of surrender to go before our member level voting).
As an aside,
A problem here I think is that you have difficulty viewing the ideology of the Star Fraction on an equal footing with prime fiction plotlines and events and as a result tend to see our anarchist ideals and outlooks as an “excuse” for what we do in-game.
That would make you a very purist RP'er who feels that one cannot create background of value in the sandbox and it does place us at odds. Somehow we would need to find some common ground here and mutually appreciate of RP creativity across this divide.
But I do assure you that your role in your gaming community is not at threat from us.
This is an IC war (and from our perspective a relatively minor one at that) that we declared simply to assert our rights of free passage and open commerce in Placid. You would not have to do much at all to make a ceasefire at this point – our point is largely proven.
But on an ooc level I think you will need to move a bit on your approach to Prime Fiction superiority above player-created background. Jericho Fraction has been a part of this game world for eight years now and have influenced politics, history and interacted with many aspects of the background.
Freespacers are a part of Eve lore. It does no good to look at our motivations and struggle to see us as “sansha agents” because we simply do not believe in General Soter’s public propaganda in reaction to the Sansha threat.
In terms of how we see things IC the “sansha-threat” is handled. Its being dealt with, its being answered, its being “farmed”.
It is not our priority.
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Well, when the aggressor entity fails to provide any legitimate rationale for the acts of aggresion, we must -infer- their RP intentions from their actions. That is what I did in my post above.
There are threadnaughts dedicated to providing said rationale, this is (or was) one of them. You're welcome to make IC accusations questioning their motives and claiming they're supporting Papa Sansha, but claiming OOC that there has been no RP involved in this conflict seems absurd to me - it's provoked plenty which I've enjoyed watching, even if it came with a healthy dose of OOC misunderstanding and drama.
IC discussions proved impossible when OOC discussion showed an inherent lack of good faith from Jade Constantine towards myself and other participants in this conflict.
IC has become a propaganda tool out of character for their particular side, to grant their war a semblance of justification. As I listed above, unequivocally, there is no coherent justification.
Even if there were such 'provocations' in Ostingele, any action on them smacks of rampant opportunism in regards to my participation in several pro/con SF debates on the IGS.
They blew up our control tower, saving us countless hours of repairing and unanchoring modules. In case you didn't know, the tower was in the process of being taken down already, which is why it could be attacked at all. Why let an anchor weigh us down when we had other things going on, specifically Operation Dikaiosyne?
Addendum:
Regarding SF's perception of the Sansha Threat, it is only being handled because people like us were actively stopping it. Moira was instrumental in providing the tactics and leadership to many of the original Anti-Incursion fleets after the Incursion expansion. We were continuing our participation, in character, to reduce civilian casualties, but above all, collect critical intelligence about the transformation of Sansha's Nation from a joke of a pirate faction into a menace that threatens the entire universe.
Moira's focus on this is our primary roleplaying concern, as indicated in Operation Nocturne, conducted just before the wardec was in effect. http://moiracorp.wordpress.com/2011/04/22/operation-nocturne-declassified-report/
The result of this operation, and the publication of its results, led to CCP removing the Sansha found in the Fountain region with a patch.
So, Moira is a roleplaying corporation, its operations are instrumental to investigating Sansha's Nation, and up until the point SF started camping our stations, where we became distracted fighting stealthbomber hordes.
The only question remaining, is why does Star Fraction want to stop us?
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We did not provoke any fights.
Come on that's a bit Silly Soter. You destroyed one of our ships, you prank-locked and bumped other ships while we patrolled in Ostingele, you (meaning your corp) attempted to bar us from Pelille as a direct challenge to our freespacer ideology. Its a bit pointless to deny this stuff ever happened. Else what was the war about?
Jade constantine attempted to provoke fights.
Of course, this is impossible to verify, as no shots were fired!
I chased your Maelstrom about one night in Ostingele when you are set red (from the bomber destruction) hoping to get you off a gate Julianus - you made some snippy comments in local and that was about it.
I fail to see how anything below weapons fire can justify a wardec to destroy a roleplaying corporation and gaming community. The only remainding explanation, as stated before, is OOC antipathy.
I will state (AGAIN) there is no intention to destroy your gaming community (or indeed your corporation). We fought to assert our rights as free-spacers to access commercial markets of placid. You now have a perfect opportunity to end this in a decent IC fashion if you want too.
Only thing that ever made this conflict a bit heavier than it should have been was Verone's heavy handed intercession on your behalf and the Rote Kapelle angle.
You declared (as Julianus Soter) it was your intention to see the Fraction driven from placid. You did that on an IGS thread and you posted IC blogs on the subject. We took that as full and tacit acknowledgement of your involvement in this war on an IC level. If not - why make those posts Soter?
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IC discussions proved impossible when OOC discussion showed an inherent lack of good faith from Jade Constantine towards myself and other participants in this conflict.
That is simply untrue and I would ask you to avoid making such blatently provocative and factually inaccurate statements in the interests of decent discussion here.
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Once again, Jade Constantine, your justifications are simply not convincing.
Nobody was stopping your access as Free Captains to the 'commercial markets' of Placid. Indeed, I think there's a market for you to set up shop in in Agoze if you were interested. However, since there is no clear economic activity by Star Fraction in the area, indeed, they destroyed our very obviously-designed industrial control tower, which was to benefit the regional market through various processing of materials and research, the economic explanation doesn't hold much water.
So, why did you wardec us, then? What is the real reason, Jade? I think many of us are still waiting for an answer.
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I think this off topic at this point and beyond current events with all this he said she said, he poked her and she poked him garbage. lock it up and trash it.
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Once again, Jade Constantine, your justifications for the conflict fall on their face.
I really don't think they have Soter.
Nobody was stopping your access as Free Captains to the 'commercial markets' of Placid. Indeed, I think there's a market for you to set up shop in in Agoze if you were interested. However, since there is no clear economic activity by Star Fraction in the area, indeed, they destroyed our very obviously-designed industrial control tower, which was to benefit the regional market through various processing of materials and research, the economic explanation doesn't hold much water.
You know perfectly well that your corporations demand that Free Captains leave Pelille is the only "justification" we'd ever need for war. Nobody the Eve Star Cluster gets to command Free Captains Soter. You should read up on your history there. As for economic activity - our staging tower in pelille has been making capsuleer combat drugs since we put it up. We're happily seeking improved relations and commercial partnerships with many Intaki resident corporations and alliances and as noted by your own corpmates we moved about 30 billion isk worth of equipment and stocks into Ostingele in the first weeks of the war!
So, why did you wardec us, then? What is the real reason, Jade? I think many of us are still waiting for an answer.
You are roleplaying regressive imperialists who tried to tell free captains where they could and couldn't go. I don't understand why this is complicated for you.
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Did we know that? Hardly. Nor was there any communication whatsoever regarding that 'provocation' was sufficient for a declaration of war. Bam, there was a wardec. And it's gone on for what, two and a half months?
We said you weren't welcome, but you hardly have to be welcome in a star system to be able to travel there.
So, simply because we didn't like you, you can wardec us? Fascinating, I'll have to put that one to use in the future.
Furthermore, this still doesn't explain why you didn't wardec the pirates in Ostingele, who were opening fire on you on a daily basis. You do realize they used freighters in highsec within the same alliance, right?
If you were serious about your stated objectives and ideology in character, you'd have declared war on them from the start. Instead, Star Fraction was more than happy to lean on the crutch of CONCORD security status and sentry gun fire to help even the odds.
Instead, you declared war on a smaller, 'less troublesome' entity. One that had fought you to a standstill for 2.5 months. And now you crow victory at the end over us.
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Addendum:
Regarding SF's perception of the Sansha Threat, it is only being handled because people like us were actively stopping it. Moira was instrumental in providing the tactics and leadership to many of the original Anti-Incursion fleets after the Incursion expansion. We were continuing our participation, in character, to reduce civilian casualties, but above all, collect critical intelligence about the transformation of Sansha's Nation from a joke of a pirate faction into a menace that threatens the entire universe.
Moira's focus on this is our primary roleplaying concern, as indicated in Operation Nocturne, conducted just before the wardec was in effect. http://moiracorp.wordpress.com/2011/04/22/operation-nocturne-declassified-report/
The result of this operation, and the publication of its results, led to CCP removing the Sansha found in the Fountain region with a patch.
So, Moira is a roleplaying corporation, its operations are instrumental to investigating Sansha's Nation, and up until the point SF started camping our stations, where we became distracted fighting stealthbomber hordes.
The only question remaining, is why does Star Fraction want to stop us?
One might as easily ask the question why does General Julianus Soter consider his personal pride is more important than his mission to fight sansha at this point?
Come and ask for peace, offer an apology for the wrongful destruction of our ship in nullsec, recognize the progressive commercial impact of the Fraction on lowsec Placid and make a post to that effect and the chances are you can go back to shooting sansha without any interference from us.
Or is General Soter's pride more important than the millions of abductees after all?
This kind of RP question does cut both ways old chap.
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You seem to forget an olive branch was offered, Jade Constantine.
And summarily rejected, IC and OOC. You claimed that the "free captains" of Star Fraction weren't interested in peace.
And then you publicly declared that there would be no peace, following our successful defense of our control tower.
Additionally, two weeks into the hostilities, I forwarded a peace offer to Cosmopolite regarding the current situation. He never responded.
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Did we know that? Hardly. Nor was there any communication whatsoever regarding that 'provocation' was sufficient for a declaration of war. Bam, there was a wardec. And it's gone on for what, two and a half months?
There are many reasons for a wardec Julianus. In the past we've wardecced people because they were prone to using logistics alts to aid our enemies, we've wardecced people because they fired on our infrastructure hub, because they sent intel to our war enemies - hell, in one famous case because we got scammed out of 30m isk. Wardecs are an engagement tool. In your case the major tactical advantage to wardeccing moira was it stopped you prank locking and playing silly buggers around the gates when we were fighting pirates. The war has continued for 45 days so far because you opted to escalate by involving Rote and Veto - I felt it could have ended on the 2 week mark when it was clear we were getting the better of you in space and your membership was making noises of wanting to talk terms.
A simple apology and recognition of our role in Placid at that point would probably have solved it.
We said you weren't welcome, but you hardly have to be welcome in a star system to be able to travel there. So, simply because we didn't like you, you can wardec us? Fascinating, I'll have to put that one to use in the future.
One needs casus beli as well obviously. The fact you had previously destroyed one of our ships in nullsec provided that - and the need was clear to keep you guys off the gates prank-locking and baiting. The RP of you telling us we were "not welcome" was simply the icing on the cake and provided the provocation for war.
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Now I'm really confused. Because we destroyed your ship in nullsec, because we believed we were still mutual red, we were wardecced? I thought you said on Page 4 that the Stealth Bomber wasn't the cause of the war?
Good time to point out that 0.0 NRDS policy for SF indicates that we were under the assumption the stealth bomber was hostile. Indeed, according to the killmail, it was fit with a warp disruptor, and operating next to our Syndicate base of operations.
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You seem to forget an olive branch was offered, Jade Constantine. And summarily rejected, IC and OOC. You claimed that the "free captains" of Star Fraction weren't interested in peace.
On your terms at that point no we were not. The mistake (we both made) was in involving Verone who tried to bind IC and OOC terms together in an appalling manner. That led you to believe you could get Moira out of the war on the terms you proposed that I put before the Free Captains (our membership) and were summarility rejected. I do not believe they'd have accepted anyway (as writ) but the involvement of Rote and Veto on your side in the first part of the pos siege killed those chances stone dead because the Fraction will never bend to threats and bullying.
If Veto/Rote hadn't come that night and we'd have rejected your initial terms there would have been chances to renegotiate/discuss/bargain etc perhaps. But your terms as written initially were unacceptable because they didn't include any element of apology for your wrongful attack on our vessel. Its a small thing, but it is an important principle. Made more complicated admittedly by the fact that I cannot accept terms unilaterally (as Jade) I can only advise what might be acceptable and put said terms before the free captains for popular vote.
And then you publicly declared that there would be no peace, following our successful defense of our control tower.
Of course, at that point we needed to obliterate the control tower or largely accept we'd failed in the war against Rote/Veto reinforcing your efforts. It had become a matter of pride from our side as well. These are factors in any war.
Additionally, two weeks into the hostilities, I forwarded a peace offer to Cosmopolite regarding the current situation. He never responded.
You should always contact multiple alliance directors because some are on holiday or inactive for whatever reasons. In SF our directors are simply a conduit for putting matters of policy before the membership to decide on. Whoever you wrote to the result would be the same - your proposal would go before a common vote and must stand as reasonable and practical and fair to the Free Captains.
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Now I'm really confused. Because we destroyed your ship in nullsec, because we believed we were still mutual red, we were wardecced? I thought you said on Page 4 that the Stealth Bomber wasn't the cause of the war?
The destruction of the bomber meant you were set red and could be summarily wardecced when appropriate. Had you not have destroyed the bomber and had merely gotten involved in bumping and prank locking while neutral the chances are diplomacy would have been done and you'd have been asked to declare your intentions (or otherwise) adjust your behaviour for mutual confidence in lowsec placid. You can best understand this as a combination of events leading up to a formal wardec - it took a combination of casus beli with continuing provocation.
Good time to point out that 0.0 NRDS policy for SF indicates that we were under the assumption the stealth bomber was hostile. Indeed, according to the killmail, it was fit with a warp disruptor, and operating next to our Syndicate base of operations.
Most of our bombers are fit with warp disruptors. That is the default Fedaykin fit. And on assumptions - well, they can lead one to make mistakes and from your perspective this could be an unfortunate failing of diplomacy on your behalf. Or alternatively maybe it was because (as your corp member pointed out on the public IGS thread) its because you operate NBSI in 0.0 and it was bound to happen?
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[mod]This thread appears to be heading towards the pear-shaped end of the spectrum. Please keep it civil and within the guidelines, or take it to PMs (or another forum) if you can't.[/mod]
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hugs Morwen
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It was an unfortunate failing of Star Fraction policy to clarify neutral standings between our organizations.
You claim that it was a matter of pride that you didn't seek to conclude the wardec after the first month, 6 weeks ago? You were worried about losing the wardec? I believe the peace arrangements that we discussed directly, Jade Constantine, involved a non-discussion agreement on the IGS. How could anyone claim victory if it was forbidden by the agreement to end the war? Nobody would even know the war ended!
This could have been over two months ago with a simple chat, but instead Star Fraction continued the wardec. Surely you must realize my concerns that this seems altogether too 'convenient' to have been a legitimate IC vendetta
And to add: none of the points have thus far been satisfactorally addressed. Indeed, we've moved down the slippery slope from 'Causus Belli' to 'pride' in our list of justifications. And indeed, whose pride are we talking about? Your chacater's pride, or your personal pride?
As you've stated before, there's no real difference between OOC and IC. . . .
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It was an unfortunate failing of Star Fraction policy to clarify neutral standings between our organizations.
Would that really have made any difference if (as your pilot publicly stated on IGS) Moira operate NSBI in 0.0?
You claim that it was a matter of pride that you didn't seek to conclude the wardec after the first month, 6 weeks ago? You were worried about loosing the wardec? I believe the peace arrangements that we discussed directly, Jade Constantine, involved a non-discussion agreement on the IGS. How could anyone claim victory if it was forbidden by the agreement to end the war? Nobody would even know the war ended!
Your "non-discussion agreement on IGS" was actually one of the elements of the peace proposal that our pilots rejected out of hand believing it was simply an attempt for you to save face when you had been roundly defeated in the war at that point. Free Captains fly where they choose and speak where they choose. People don't join the Star Fraction to be muzzled on IGS.
+ We had been winning decisively at the beginning of the tower siege. Then Rote and Veto declared for Moira and you managed to bnc on a sequence of high profile kills. To make peace at that point would have looked weak (and been weak) and the audience would have correctly concluded that SF had been bullied into peace by superior numbers of Rote and Veto military pilots. It would added to Verone's reputation and mystique at the cost of our own and it was deemed unpalatable by our members.
Hence we needed to prepare for a long war and turn things around again. The reason we're talking now is because we've recovered our position and gained our win conditions - thats quite straightforward surely?
This could have been over two months ago with a simple chat, but instead Star Fraction continued the wardec. Surely you must realize my concerns that this seems altogether too 'convenient' to have been a legitimate IC vendetta.
Well look over your comments in local in Ostingele Soter, you weren't that keen to have a friendly chat back then. I agree, matters could have been resolved, if you had come to me and said "look we've destroyed one of your bombers how do we make this right?" chances are I'd have said ... "buy the pilot a replacement and say sorry for shooting you down" and that would have been that.
But the thing with hindsight it is 20/20. Back then you thought we were a bit rubbish ... And the tone of your initial IC propaganda posting made it clear you expected to win the war. Your own pilots in week 2 said it best when they told us that after seeing the 30th SF abaddon docking in Pelille they realized this wasn't a fight they could win.
I don't hold that against you though, you took a bet and it didn't pay off. If it had you might have ended up with a dead SF scalp on your belt :)
And to add: none of the points have thus far been satisfactorally addressed. Indeed, we've moved down the slippery slope from 'Causus Belli' to 'pride' in our list of justifications. And indeed, whose pride are we talking about? Your chacater's pride, or your personal pride? As you've stated before, there's no real difference between OOC and IC. . . .
I think you are misrepresenting my comments there and its not that useful to reply to this last point.
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I actually voiced my concerns to my pilots before engaging the Stealth Bomber, but then remembered you had us set red. Thus, I believed that any action against it would've not generated new standings.
As I recall, Star Fraction's avowed NRDS policy only has any legitimacy if those standings are communicated directly to the leadership of those organizations you are setting red, correct? If you do not, then you can merely claim to have red standings with a target of opportunity, then add those standings in retrospect. Or, you can claim you were neutral towards another group, and thus legitimize a wardec in the future.
Without any communication, standings are largely vestigial remnants of an NRDS group that is in actuality an NBSI group.
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[mod]Argumentative and overly critical. This thread has run its course and then some.[/mod]