Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 19 May 2011, 13:44
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Interested in hearing viewpoints on my beloved Khanid II. We have a decent amount of PF with regards to the 'events' regarding the King, but precious little about the Man.
Just for the sake of stirring up some conversation, I think we could make a very reasonable case for Khanid being much more along the line of a Secularist, than your typical True Amarr Imperial Heir.
1. Completely disregarding tradition with the trials, leaving the empire, establishing his own government, etc. Extremely pious religious dogmatics would have fallen on their swords like the other Heirs.
2. Referring to Heideran as a 'whimpering fool' is well, sacrelige.
3. I feel Khanid could almost be a sort of Martin Luthor, decreeing that only yourself is needed for a relationship with god. Not the theology council or the church.
4. He seems to be an extremely shrewd operator establishing and maintaining his small kingdom with all the large/scary neighbors. The amount of PF we have with the Khanids being completely pragmatic lends credibility to him being essentiall Machiavellian in nature, using any methods, religious, military, etc, to get what he wants.
5. Sabik? Quest for individual power without regards for religion? Focus on individual power and ability (the signs of faith chronicle suggests this).
Let's not forget the various references to him being quite a hedonist. Keeping a Gallente pop star as a 'personal slave' and the joke about him liking younger women in the 'signs of faith' chronicle.
Opinions?
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Its certainly possible.
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3. I feel Khanid could almost be a sort of Martin Luthor, decreeing that only yourself is needed for a relationship with god. Not the theology council or the church.
This I do not see. The Kingdom has its own facsimiles of the Theology and Privy Councils and its people are apparently just as pious as any in the Empire, and sometimes rather moreso. So, I don't see the King has championing any sort of religious revolution. He almost certainly has his own personal opinions on the matter, but if those were being used as the basis for a serious counter theology to the Imperial Faith, I think we'd have seen it in PF already.
As to the other points, I think they all point to a figure who is and always has been looking out for Number One -- not God, but himself. He thought he should have become Emperor and when that didn't happen, he took his toys and went to play elsewhere. Then when they sent his brother to try and throw him out in the name of the Empire, he had the guy killed. He's managed to keep the implications of this fratricide as well as any Sabik connections our outright blasphemous beliefs or habits concealed with propaganda and plenty of (due) royal secrecy. To me, he's a much more charismatic, attractive, and obviously more successful version of Dochuta Karsoth: a cunning, selfish opportunist with noble blood and historic luck to have been born into the position he was.
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I thought the chronicle was pretty clear on his having no respect for the theology council and expressly suggesting they have no authority. IE going against the theology council is a direct attack on imperial-style faith.
It would be like when the King of England couldn't get a divorce, told his people the Pope has no authority, and then up and leaves the church.
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Fair enough, but Anglicanism is a rather different thing than Lutheranism and the protestant revolution. I think the Church of England is a far better example.
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Pragmatic dictator is the first label that comes to mind.
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There is always the other side of the coin.
We have no real timeline of the Moral Reforms they may have happened during the lifetime of the Emperor who was before Heideran. The Khanid could have held on to their perception of the Faith through that reign and hope that when a new succession would come, God would redeem them.
It didn't because the Theology Council rigged the succession trials in a way that Heideran won.
If it would be so, he would refuse to commit Sathol'syn, he would deny the power of the Theology Council and completely disregard the Privy Council.
The Tetrimon were hiding in the Kingdom, perhaps since the Moral Reforms.
Perhaps King Khanid saw that the Empire had strayed away from God and took it into his own hands to salvage what he could of the Chosen and those of the Faith.
The Empire itself is constantly going against the Scriptures, constantly making decisions not based on the religion but on politics. A supporter of the religious Reclaiming would of course perceive Heideran and Doriam as sniveling weaklings because they chose to taint the Empire by allowing the other cultures to come in.
Just my two iskies.
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Per City of God (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=03-july-01), the Moral Reforms took place around 1500-1400 years before the present day.
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There is always the other side of the coin.
We have no real timeline of the Moral Reforms they may have happened during the lifetime of the Emperor who was before Heideran. The Khanid could have held on to their perception of the Faith through that reign and hope that when a new succession would come, God would redeem them.
It didn't because the Theology Council rigged the succession trials in a way that Heideran won.
If it would be so, he would refuse to commit Sathol'syn, he would deny the power of the Theology Council and completely disregard the Privy Council.
The Tetrimon were hiding in the Kingdom, perhaps since the Moral Reforms.
Perhaps King Khanid saw that the Empire had strayed away from God and took it into his own hands to salvage what he could of the Chosen and those of the Faith.
The Empire itself is constantly going against the Scriptures, constantly making decisions not based on the religion but on politics. A supporter of the religious Reclaiming would of course perceive Heideran and Doriam as sniveling weaklings because they chose to taint the Empire by allowing the other cultures to come in.
Just my two iskies.
This is exactly what I've been thinking for a long time now.
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Perhaps King Khanid saw that the Empire had strayed away from God and took it into his own hands to salvage what he could of the Chosen and those of the Faith.
The Empire itself is constantly going against the Scriptures, constantly making decisions not based on the religion but on politics. A supporter of the religious Reclaiming would of course perceive Heideran and Doriam as sniveling weaklings because they chose to taint the Empire by allowing the other cultures to come in.
Just my two iskies.
This is generally the line Silas uses in public. I've made quite a few IGS posts lambasting the quality and downward spiral of the Empire since Heideraan took over. You could make some direct references to two peacenik emperors, and the ensuing weakening of the Empire...the losses to the Jovians and the loss of the Matari territories, etc etc.
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As a note, I think it was common (OOC) knowledge that of the Heirs, generally only the Ardishapur one has any kind of semblance to true faith? Therefore, the acceptance or rejection of Sathol'syn isn't exactly a matter of faith - rather, a matter of law thinly disguised as faith. This might have been different in the old days (a few hundred years ago - that Khanid geezer is old, seriously ancient compared to current Heirs, even if he were, say, a few centuries younger than Heideran was).
So, we can certainly agree that king Khanid II is secular. However, he cannot make his domain secular - since unlike in Europe, the Church is essentially the state in the Empire. Since the Emperor is the head of the Imperial cult - and like pointed out, had been likely for long before Khanid II's time, certainly before his commoners had been born - so the King is the head of his own royal cult in the Kingdom and the head of the Khanid Church there.
Some kind of reformation likely happened to change the key tenets of faith to support the King's rule, with a lot of Scripture that can be emphasized in such of a way that a Royal House can be considered as God's Viceroy/Apostle instead of only the Emperor. The old Apostolic Council and the Emperor's position as being the chosen of the Apostles and/or a first amongst equals of the Apostles might give lots of hooks for this.
Did we have it directly mentioned if the Emperor in the Apostolic period must have been an Apostle himself, or whether the Apostles could appoint someone else outside their number as the Emperor? Because when the Emperor did not have yet complete control of the state, it might have been a bit like the dictator's position in the Roman Republic - chosen to deal with an emergency. (And then the emergency - namely, the Reclaiming of Athra - had been going on for so long that no one remembered a time before the Emperor, so he became a permanent figure.) This is interesting, because we know that the organization of the Apostles did exist at least up to the days of the battle of Vak'Atioth (and may still exist, some of them got murdered in Theodicy, but a lot likely survived). Perhaps Khanid II could find a power-greedy Apostle ready to proclaim Khanid an independent "head of state" of the Amarrians? A bit like old empires on Earth stated they had conquered the entire world, I assume that before the discovery of the Gallente, "the territory of the Empire" and "universe" did mean the same thing for the Amarr. Therefore, the subjects of the Khanid Kingdom are Amarr, but they are ruled by a different ruler. Compare this to West Germany: The Bundesrepublik considered itself the only legitimate successor state in Germany, and therefore, the Germans living in DDR/East Germany were also considered to be citizens.
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_Bloodline#Zealots
Perhaps King Khanid announced his conversion to one of the many and varied Khanid-origin churches ?
that sort of thing would allow him to interpret the relevant Scriptures in a way that suits him/his kingdom.
perhaps a bit of politicking with the Theology Council, e.g. King Khanid says "Only I can keep these zealots under control" or "As you can see, my actions are justified by Scripture", in such a way that the Theology Council advises the Emperor that taking action would be hugely divisive and problematic.
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It didn't because the Theology Council rigged the succession trials in a way that Heideran won.
They did ?
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Theology Council is in complete control of what the Succession trials contain.
If you control the questions then you can determine the answer.
Hell, they skipped them for the zombiebitchqueen.
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King Khanids secession is complicated by there apparently not being warp drives, jump drives or FTL communications at the time. :s
would have complicated any Imperial retribution at the time, and by such time as they were invented, King Khanid was too entrenched to be dug out.
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I kind of like the idea of Khanid being a bit like Henry VIII in his outlook on religion.
The main question I have is what’s the line of succession? There’s no mention (that I know of) of a Queen or an Heir to the Khanid throne.
So if he dies, the Kingdom would probably get thrown into a civil war and/or completely subsumed by the Empire.
They make a point to mention Khanid’s “Gallente pop-star slave.” Reading between the lines, I definitely see more than the usual Master/Servant connection here. But marrying your slaves is “just not done dahling.”
Not sure if it’s a typo or what, but Khanid is listed as being True Amarr and not Khanid. This makes the line of succession even more cloudy.
And speaking of succession, Jamyl doesn’t have a spouse either does she? It would make for a strange Empire if Jamyl and Khanid married.
I don’t see Khanid as being very friendly with the Sabik. Blood Raiders are one of the main NPC villains in the Kingdom. I could definitely see the Sabik secretly supporting houses that are or were against Khanid’s reign.
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The title of the Emperor has never been hereditary in the Empire. At least as far as the PF goes.
I doubt that title of the king is hereditary in the Kingdom.
The House Khanid has always been lead by the True Amarr.
The succession of an Amarrian religion based theocracy is not a hereditary monarchy where lines of succession mean anything. I believe that the top dog of any noble house can make just about anyone their heir. I do not see why it would be different in the Kingdom, but I would think that keeping the True Amarr as the ruling class of the Kingdom will still be there a long time after King Khanid has passed away.
You know, the religion, The Chosen and all that.
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I was specific in saying sabik and not raider, as I think two very different things. just being devil's advocate as he clearly shows the ambition for personal power and a disregard for tradition in order to achieve it.
Yes true amarr, not a typo.
Correct me if I'm wrong but there was certainly warp-drive, etc during the leaving of the Empire. The Amarr were already spread out over many regions of Eve, and what is now the Kingdom basically being his own teritory much like Kor-Azor or Kador.
The Emperor is not hereditary, but power within each House is hereditary. We can probably reasonably infer that Khanid has blood relatives waiting in line (or plotting his death).
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Interested in hearing viewpoints on my beloved Khanid II. We have a decent amount of PF with regards to the 'events' regarding the King, but precious little about the Man.
Just for the sake of stirring up some conversation, I think we could make a very reasonable case for Khanid being much more along the line of a Secularist, than your typical True Amarr Imperial Heir.
1. Completely disregarding tradition with the trials, leaving the empire, establishing his own government, etc. Extremely pious religious dogmatics would have fallen on their swords like the other Heirs.
2. Referring to Heideran as a 'whimpering fool' is well, sacrelige.
3. I feel Khanid could almost be a sort of Martin Luthor, decreeing that only yourself is needed for a relationship with god. Not the theology council or the church.
4. He seems to be an extremely shrewd operator establishing and maintaining his small kingdom with all the large/scary neighbors. The amount of PF we have with the Khanids being completely pragmatic lends credibility to him being essentiall Machiavellian in nature, using any methods, religious, military, etc, to get what he wants.
5. Sabik? Quest for individual power without regards for religion? Focus on individual power and ability (the signs of faith chronicle suggests this).
Let's not forget the various references to him being quite a hedonist. Keeping a Gallente pop star as a 'personal slave' and the joke about him liking younger women in the 'signs of faith' chronicle.
Opinions?
Nice list, but Martin Luther or Henry VIII could be a little to much... the rest top... I see it the same way.
P.S. I agree he is better looking as the old Chamberlain. :P