Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Saede Riordan on 10 May 2011, 00:34
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So I've been looking at languages, matari languages in particular, because my character actually speaks them.
Currently, there is no fictional language made up for Matari or its many distinct groups, and there are probably several, a lot of people seem to be using various real world languages to represent the languages of these groups.
What I've seen as the most widespread/common usage is this:
Thukker/Brutor=Icelandic/Hungarian
Sebiestor/Krusal/Standard Matari=Irish Gaelic
Vherokior/Starkmanir=Welsh Gaelic
What are thoughts on this? I know some people are against using real life languages as stand ins at all. I know a Matari language project was started but it's focused on a smaller group. Do we want to start a language project for the Minmatar? Cause I'd be willing to contribute to that if we did.
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There was a lot of african languages thrown into the mix by the U'K folk.
Interesting thing, the languages that you have listed have nothing to do with the apparent ethnicities displayed by the bloodlines.
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I'm not confident using Gaelic is representative of those chosen bloodlines. It's a language for pasty, white-skinned Britons, whereas Starkmanir have been described as "having the face of a Gallente, and the skin of a Brutor". We already have an extremely biased leaning towards Western influences in the factions, with Amarr having Latin even if there are more Arabian/Persian references (surname generator in chargen, system names etc.). It would be better to use a non-European language base altogether. Originality and all.
(http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Seriphyn/minmatarscript.png?t=1304116485)
That is visible on some Matari objects, as I brought up on the other thread. Immediately, that indicates a non-Latin writing script, whereas Gaelic is Latin-based.
Your best bet is to open up the chargen, and use the Randomize name button to get a better reference point for any potential languages. System names is another point of reference.
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Well, those scripts are vaguely picographic, but I can't see the Matari language as being symbol=word based like that, because languages like that are difficult to learn, and are learned by immersion largely, meaning it would be lost during the years of captivity. There has to be something though.
What it could be is something like Tengwar, which heavily uses Diacritical marks.
I rather like the symbols though, they're interesting, however they're not anything like what we have on earth, the one on the right looks vaguely like Klingon. The one on the left, tbh, looks a bit like Napaanii. We can work with that though.
As for the way it sounds I'd always imagined it to be fairly smooth and pretty sounding, but sort of rough around the edges, like Gaelic, elvish, or maybe Italian, and I know, yes, yes Seri, western influences, blah blah blah, but I'm just giving examples for the way it should sound to speak based on languages I know. If we design it right, it should be its own thing entirely.
Now, thukker and possibly Brutor, I always imagined as being very harsh and vaguely violent sounding. Russian, German, Hungarian, and maybe Icelandic come to mind as examples...oh, and Klingon. Very guttural.
A couple things that would need to be kept in mind when designing either of these languages: These languages were kept alive through 700 years of slavery and culture erasing, so they need to be easily transcribed, and they need to be phonetic. You need to be able to look at a letter and go "this is the sound that this letter makes" no caveats, no exceptions, it needs to be as simple as possible.
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I'll throw in the question I always ask in these situations: How do you interpret your project in light of the language translators (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=apr02)?
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Well, based on the chronicle, I'd interpret it like this:
you are plugged into a capsule, you aren't actually talking, you're thinking. But thoughts don't work like words, words are representations of concepts. Thoughts are those concepts. The computer reads those concepts, and directs them to the mind of the other person you're talking to. The language barrier is thus circumvented because you're communicating at a more root level then language. Beyond language.
Now, outside the pod, this is not the case. I'd posit that there is a "standard" language that capsuleers speak that communicates at some core level based on this concept sharing, that something about it imprints a base language in the character's mind, allowing them to speak to other capsuleers in this same language. This would be real world English. Now, this doesn't mean the character cannot still speak in their native tongue. That's likely to happen fairly often. Nikita mumbles it under her breath when talking, and swears in her native language most of the time.
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A standard language among capsuleers directly contradicts that entire article, though:
All the major races in EVE speak their own language and all attempts to make one the lingua franca have failed because of stubbornness over accepting any one language as the dominant one...
With the steady increase in cyber-implants these translators have begun appearing outside the capsule as well and many predict that within a few years translators will make the debate over which language should prevail in inter-racial communication a futile one.
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A standard language among capsuleers directly contradicts that entire article, though:
All the major races in EVE speak their own language and all attempts to make one the lingua franca have failed because of stubbornness over accepting any one language as the dominant one...
With the steady increase in cyber-implants these translators have begun appearing outside the capsule as well and many predict that within a few years translators will make the debate over which language should prevail in inter-racial communication a futile one.
Not really, it just means that implants allow this "under language" to exist outside the capsule too.
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Do what you like, of course, but the PF states pretty clearly that (in a general sense) there's no core language that's developed.
That's not to say that among some small group, they might not have such a thing. But it just wouldn't be cluster-wide.
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Do what you like, of course, but the PF states pretty clearly that (in a general sense) there's no core language that's developed.
That's not to say that among some small group, they might not have such a thing. But it just wouldn't be cluster-wide.
So you don't like my idea of mental communication beyond language being how the translators work?
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I've always viewed the translators as like the Babel Fish from Hitchhickers or more fitting to EVE the translator nanites used in Farscape. It's something pretty much everyone has that gets rid of the need of a language like 'basic.'
Each race having their own unique language I thought about even before I got into EVE RP. Matari languages, to me, have always been very primitive, and I usually thought of them as being more of an ancient tribal dialect with a heavy dose of influence from the language of their Amarrian captors. Kinda like the Native Americans of today. They keep their own language but it has also been supplemented with English. Going on that principle I would think that the Matari languages would probably be a mix of their native tongue and Amarrian.
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Eh, fairly smooth and pretty-sounding is definitely not how I personally picture any of the Matari languages. Italian's a Romance language too, probably in the vein of Gallente (Villore is an Italian town).
Just take a look at the actual names. Heavy consonant base, words without vowels at all, like Pator IX (Syld). Perhaps the symbols on the fighter is Brutor (Brutor is the language of the Fleet?) and the symbols on the service station is Vherokior (shop owners etc.)
We know there is "seven distinct civilizations" that appeared on Matar, so they'll all have their own separate language, though thoroughly consumed by the Amarr in somae places, yeah. I just think Europe is a bad mark of reference to go with; there's only one "white" Matari bloodline out of seven. The rest are "foreigners".
@Ember
Hindi speakers tend to interject words in English that don't translate into Hindi. This is called "Hinglish". The Matari may have a very similar thing, but supplement Amarr words instead.
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We know there is "seven distinct civilizations" that appeared on Matar, so they'll all have their own separate language, though thoroughly consumed by the Amarr in somae places, yeah. I just think Europe is a bad mark of reference to go with; there's only one "white" Matari bloodline out of seven. The rest are "foreigners".
What? This doesn't parse, can you please restate?
Hindi speakers tend to interject words in English that don't translate into Hindi. This is called "Hinglish". The Matari may have a very similar thing, but supplement Amarr words instead.
This is far from limited to Hindi/English.
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What? This doesn't parse, can you please restate?
Well, 6 of the 7 Matari bloodlines are non-white, I was just saying that if you are going to use RL as some sort of foundation or mark of reference, then Europe would be a bad place to start.
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What? This doesn't parse, can you please restate?
Well, 6 of the 7 Matari bloodlines are non-white, I was just saying that if you are going to use RL as some sort of foundation or mark of reference, then Europe would be a bad place to start.
Yes, however, its easier to start at all when you have a baselines. I am familiar with European languages, I know how they sound, and how they are written and spoken therefore, I will start there, because you need a baseline. You have to start somewhere.
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So you don't like my idea of mental communication beyond language being how the translators work?
There is some reasonable philosophical arguments to suggest that what you can think is limited by the language you have. If you have no words for something like the colour blue, it's very difficult to think about the concept meaningfully. If this is true, then it would be very difficult for a mental-concept translator to work divorced from language.
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Matari languages, to me, have always been very primitive,
I'm feeling a bit like a broken record here, but I'm going to say it anyway. The Matari had Spaceships before the Amarr showed up longer than Earthlings have had them IRL. They have a higher tech than Earth today for many things. The Arabic world had the top scientists a thousand years ago, (although perhaps the chinese were better) and they were a tribal culture. Tribal social organisations are not automatically the same as "primitive".
and I usually thought of them as being more of an ancient tribal dialect with a heavy dose of influence from the language of their Amarrian captors. Kinda like the Native Americans of today. They keep their own language but it has also been supplemented with English. Going on that principle I would think that the Matari languages would probably be a mix of their native tongue and Amarrian.
For all that I said above, I think the idea that the current Matari language(s) have borrowed words and influences from the Amarr is very likely. (I can also see a sort of doomed effort by some people to discourage the use of Amarrian words in normal language though).
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Matari languages, to me, have always been very primitive,
I'm feeling a bit like a broken record here, but I'm going to say it anyway. The Matari had Spaceships before the Amarr showed up longer than Earthlings have had them IRL. They have a higher tech than Earth today for many things. The Arabic world had the top scientists a thousand years ago, (although perhaps the chinese were better) and they were a tribal culture. Tribal social organisations are not automatically the same as "primitive".
By primitive I meant more of how they sounded as a language. I have no qualms admitting that even a 4 year old in EVE would probably have more technological/theoretical knowledge of a vast number of things than our top scientists do today IRL. Primitive was explaining the language sound not the Matari themselves.
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Primitive was explaining the language sound not the Matari themselves.
Umm, Ok, Fair cop.
What does "Primitive" mean to you as how a language sounds? Could you give some examples of RL languages that you think sound primitive or modern?
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Actually been looking on youtube for just such and coming up somewhat empty. What I mean by that is that it doesnt "flow" as well. If you took a spoken language and compared it to a wave line a romance language would probably be a curvy line and I see Matari as being a bit more of a squared line.
Non-Matari(Romance language for instance)
(http://www.myinkblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/bg-with-wavy-line.jpg)
Matari
(http://swordrock.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/square.jpg)
I suppose less refined or harsher would fit in the place of primitive as far as the sound goes, but what I'm getting at is that Matari seems a bit more choppy when it is spoken as opposed to flowing.
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I suggest that a descriptor other than "primitive" might help your case here. From what you describe, I suggest that "guttural", "plosive", "choppy" and "having strongly-marked diction without slurring" might all be contenders.
I'd then say "That's your opinion", but we might at least be talking about the same sort of thing.
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I suggest that a descriptor other than "primitive" might help your case here. From what you describe, I suggest that "guttural", "plosive", "choppy" and "having strongly-marked diction without slurring" might all be contenders.
I'd then say "That's your opinion", but we might at least be talking about the same sort of thing.
Defensive a bit eh?
Also, check the bottom of last post. :D
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Matari languages, to me, have always been very primitive,
I'm feeling a bit like a broken record here, but I'm going to say it anyway. The Matari had Spaceships before the Amarr showed up longer than Earthlings have had them IRL. They have a higher tech than Earth today for many things. The Arabic world had the top scientists a thousand years ago, (although perhaps the chinese were better) and they were a tribal culture. Tribal social organisations are not automatically the same as "primitive".
By primitive I meant more of how they sounded as a language. I have no qualms admitting that even a 4 year old in EVE would probably have more technological/theoretical knowledge of a vast number of things than our top scientists do today IRL. Primitive was explaining the language sound not the Matari themselves.
Let me see if I get get something better sounding here...less primitive, more...guttural a language that is more rough, like Klingon, or Hungarian, or Orc.
I...don't actually see this. I see the language as being unrefined, but not quite like that. Certain dialects maybe, but I dunno, I always imagined the Matari having a fairly pretty language. I said Gaelic because its an example I actually know of, of a language that sounds the way I want it, where it can be both smooth and melodious, as well as harsh and unpleasant, but for Seri, I'm sure we can find some Polynesian or African language that fits the bill.
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I suppose that could be true. I've always seen them as being a bit short spoken as well or perhaps the PC term of men/women of few words would work better, but then again most of my impressions of Matari came before I started roleplaying in EVE when I was doing a workup in my head of a Brutor character I made when I first started the game.
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As a friendly suggestion, you'll probably get a much better reception from other people creating some dialect from some corner of the cluster rather than telling roleplayers who already have done a lot of worldbuilding in an area how their characters should all be speaking.
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Just a couple of points.
As has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, tribal =/= primitive.
Primitive also =/= socially and/or linguistically unsophisticated.
Modern languages that we are used to regarding as 'cultured' or 'sophisticated' are the direct, and in some cases practically unchanged, descendants of languages spoken by people living in mud huts.
On earth, just one planet compared to the many, many in the Eve universe, there is a massive variation between the 'sound' of languages, even if you limit the comparison to 'languages spoken by people not living 'modern' lifestyles. In fact, there's a massive variation on single continents, let alone between, say, Iwaidjan and Haida.
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I'm not confident using Gaelic is representative of those chosen bloodlines. It's a language for pasty, white-skinned Britons, whereas Starkmanir have been described as "having the face of a Gallente, and the skin of a Brutor".
That is visible on some Matari objects, as I brought up on the other thread. Immediately, that indicates a non-Latin writing script, whereas Gaelic is Latin-based.
Gaelic is a language for more than Britons and includes Scots and the Irish. It's also three languages. And it's a branch of a language family spoken across most of Europe for, well, a long while, by tribal peoples, until they were conquered or displaced by a mix of other tribal peoples and the Roman Empire. It's worth noting that its use of a Roman alphabet is entirely a kitbash by the Romans, since the Celts didn't develop writing systems. It's also worth noting that a great many modern tribal tongues, from all over the globe, are written using variations on the Roman alphabet.
It's further worth noting that probably nobody in the Eve cluster actually uses a phonetic script based on the writing style of ancient Phoenicians.
Ciarente and Ulphus handled most of the rest of what I wanted to say, so I'll just say briefly that while Eve could use more diversity in its influences, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that dark-skinned future cultures should have their influences confined to dark-skinned modern cultures.
Edit: I misremembered. Gaelic isn't for Britons at all; the third language within it is Manx. And to my shame, my knowledge of Ogham is horribly outdated. Turns out the Gaelic-speaking branch could write after all.
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I'll just say briefly that while Eve could use more diversity in its influences, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that dark-skinned future cultures should have their influences confined to dark-skinned modern cultures.
Agreed. Also it's worth bearing in mind that the ethnic diversity within even one group, in this case Brutor, ranges from this:
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/448/gaerbrunette.png)
to this.
(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/1293/blondegaer.png)
Not to mention this
(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/6861/valleygirlbrutor.png)
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Primitive also =/= socially and/or linguistically unsophisticated.
I'd argue that the Matari language is linguistically simple, but not in a bad way, in a good way. In an elegant "these are the grammar rules and conventions now stick to them" sort of way, because there's no other way for their language to survive the 700 years of enslavement. It would need to simplify itself, make itself easy to learn, to the point where someone with only a bare bones knowledge of what letters make what sounds to be able to write decently, if not fluently. This has nothing to do with the "primitiveness" or "tribalness" of their society, and everything to do with the need for simplicity in order for the language to survive.
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Actually, that's highly unlikely to ever happen.
I'm one of the first people who'll get exasperated with Amarr RPers trying to enforce all kinds of Amarrian influence on Matari culture, language and so on OoC, but there's no way in hell a discouraged language will survive 700 years in any kind of 'pure' form, simplistic or not.
What has survived are some pure fragments. Some hybrids with Amarrian language. Some Amarrian 'loaner' words and some just made up ones. Then after being freed, there's most likely been quite a resurgence and attempt to make it purer and linguistic experts and such will have pored over archaeological, historical and even oral remnants in order to 'reconstruct' the language. The result will most likely be a language fraught with loaner words and hybrids, with a few 'pure' remnants in between. Nothing 'simplistic' about it. These languages have a tendency to become more complicated, not less.
Secondly: One Matari language? Oh hell no. Impossible. Not with that kind of cultural and geographical separation over such a long time. There may be a language constructed after the rebellion, that's purely Matari, but it won't be the most used one. It'd be a similar task as to resurrect Latin. Some speak it, but it's not a national language anywhere.
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Primitive also =/= socially and/or linguistically unsophisticated.
I'd argue that the Matari language is linguistically simple, but not in a bad way, in a good way. In an elegant "these are the grammar rules and conventions now stick to them" sort of way, because there's no other way for their language to survive the 700 years of enslavement. It would need to simplify itself, make itself easy to learn, to the point where someone with only a bare bones knowledge of what letters make what sounds to be able to write decently, if not fluently. This has nothing to do with the "primitiveness" or "tribalness" of their society, and everything to do with the need for simplicity in order for the language to survive.
Even accepting your premises that:
a) there is one Matari language; and
b) all Matari were enslaved
(which I note are premises not accepted by very many Minmatar RPers)
I note that contemporary linguists regard the description of 'creole' languages developed during 18th and 19th century enslavement as 'simple' to be simple prejudice.
For those interested in linguistic development, I highly recommend Edward Sapir's 1921 (but still relevant) survey, Language. An Introduction to the Study of Speech.
In his words, "attempts to connect particular types of linguistic morphology with certain correlated stages of cultural development are vain. Rightly understood, such correlations are rubbish. Both simple and complex types of language of an indefinite number of varieties may be found spoken at any desired level of cultural advance. When it comes to linguistic form, Plato walks with the Macedonian swineherd, Confucius with the head-hunting savage of Assam."
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Actually, that's highly unlikely to ever happen.
I'm one of the first people who'll get exasperated with Amarr RPers trying to enforce all kinds of Amarrian influence on Matari culture, language and so on OoC, but there's no way in hell a discouraged language will survive 700 years in any kind of 'pure' form, simplistic or not.
What has survived are some pure fragments. Some hybrids with Amarrian language. Some Amarrian 'loaner' words and some just made up ones. Then after being freed, there's most likely been quite a resurgence and attempt to make it purer and linguistic experts and such will have pored over archaeological, historical and even oral remnants in order to 'reconstruct' the language. The result will most likely be a language fraught with loaner words and hybrids, with a few 'pure' remnants in between. Nothing 'simplistic' about it. These languages have a tendency to become more complicated, not less.
Secondly: One Matari language? Oh hell no. Impossible. Not with that kind of cultural and geographical separation over such a long time. There may be a language constructed after the rebellion, that's purely Matari, but it won't be the most used one. It'd be a similar task as to resurrect Latin. Some speak it, but it's not a national language anywhere.
That makes sense actually. However, would it be worth looking into the language evolution of the groups that escaped enslavement, like the Thukkers or the Matari that fled to the Federation? What would happen to those dialects?
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most of the Minmatar were not conquered, as per the revision to the timelines, the Amarr Empire was still conquering worlds at the time of the Rebellion.
the old Minmatar republic of the time still had a working command structure and a working Fleet and functional infrastructure.
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most of the Minmatar were not conquered, as per the revision to the timelines, the Amarr Empire was still conquering worlds at the time of the Rebellion.
the old Minmatar republic of the time still had a working command structure and a working Fleet and functional infrastructure.
I had thought most of the Minmatar were conquered, but that a recognizable minority hadnt. Any PF on this? (not trying to be aggressive, just honestly curious)
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most of the Minmatar were not conquered, as per the revision to the timelines, the Amarr Empire was still conquering worlds at the time of the Rebellion.
the old Minmatar republic of the time still had a working command structure and a working Fleet and functional infrastructure.
I had thought most of the Minmatar were conquered, but that a recognizable minority hadnt. Any PF on this? (not trying to be aggressive, just honestly curious)
Theodicy, I think is the only source for this, and the canon has been modified to suit.
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Thats odd, how then the majority of the race is within the Empire?
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Thats odd, how then the majority of the race is within the Empire?
:psyccp:
25% in the Republic, 33% in the Empire, 20% in the Federation, 22% "Other" - including Thukker
Possibly slaves reproduce faster, due to not having clans that war between themselves, as the minmatar of old did?
Or maybe not.
:psyccp: :ugh:
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How I play Matari languages...
This is player-generated background in areas where the PF has little to say. It builds on elements where the PF is sparse and in one important respect where PF has changed radically (whether or not there was a continuous tradition of non-Thukker free Matari culture between the Day of Darkness and the successful Rebellion). Depending on how those elements are developed in any future canon-building this might or might not have a future, but I need something for my play and stories now, so this is how I play it.
The Republic uses:
- Modern Standard Matari
- Amarish and Amarish patois
- various tribal and clan dialects appropriate to each area.
Also, especially in popular culture:
Modern Standard Matari (MSM) is -- depending on who you ask -- a revival and modernisation of an old pan-tribal tongue OR a made-up language drawing elements from the dominant tribal languages during the period of the formation of the Republic. It's the language of the Republic government, of pan-tribal media, and of most cities and stations which aren't clearly owned and dominated by one or other tribe.
[As examples of "revived, modernised and standardised" languages which have been adopted and spread within two generations for cultural and political reasons I think of modern Hebrew, the Welsh revival and modern standardised Maori. For a language of widespread media that's distinct from the local variants but widely/universally intelligible I'm thinking of Modern Standard Arabic.]
[I don't know what resources are available recording Matari languages from before the Day of Darkness, who might have those now (imagine some Amarrian institute for the study of heathen races, perhaps) or how to play with the Great Matari Retcon here. More on that later.]
[For me, language raises questions about Minmatar government services and even the Republic's sources of revenue. Especially with the hiatus in the Parliament-and-Tribal-Council plotline it's hard to say at the moment what's done by the tribes and what by the Republic. I've played that there's some Republic funding available for teachers and basic resources, including in clan- or tribal-based schools, so long as those schools provide a certain number of hours of instruction in a certain basic syllabus, and that that syllabus includes Modern Standard Matari. Your mileage may vary.]
Amarish (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Language_translators_%28Chronicle%29) (which I usually spell Amarrish, doubling the "r" as in "Amarrian") is used for practical reasons: it's the language understood by most of the Returned. It's not a favoured language within the Republic, and people are encouraged to learn at least MSM, but it's too widely-understood, often as a sole language, to ignore.
I'm not sure whether freeborn Matar would be taught Amarish. It may be necessary to learn some of it to communicate with Auntie Velun who never quite took to this newfangled Matari language, or with the newly Returned. It's also likely to be the cradle tongue of some of the first-generation freeborn. I expect that there will be competing social pressures: "leave it behind and embrace the language of freedom" and "this is my tongue, not only the tongue of the oppressors: don't strip my words from me as well as everything else".
By now there are probably societies devoted to the research and preservation of aspects of Matari language and culture from the Great Captivity.
[I'm making some assumptions here which affect my conclusions in various ways: that one of the facets of Amarrian slavery is the redemption of the enslaved; that redemption comes, in some part, through cultural and religious understanding; and that Amarrian religion is quite tied to -- and is now stabilised by -- the language of the majority of the body-of-knowledge that is the Amarrian Scriptures (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Scriptures). These mean that I expect the general Amarrian approach to involve imposing Amarrian language and religion on slaves, although there may be quite some variation between what might be expected of a house servant and a mine worker.]
Tribal and clan dialects: I play that they exist, but I've avoided getting too far into detailing them. The retcon about whether Matari as a whole were enslaved plays merry havoc with this, and I'm avoiding detailing stuff that I don't have to that's affected by that until we get more information.
Gallente language (which I call "Gallentean" because that's what it was called in some of the early write-ups I read) is part of a strand in post-Rebellion Matari culture from the early days of political influence and aspiration through to the lyrics of current Gallente pop songs. It's also the language of a huge chunk of free Matari -- the GalFed Matari -- and it's very important to keep those cultural ties going as much as possible (complete with "rediscover your ancestry" tourism). While there's now a torrent of Matari pop culture, and I play that the relationship between Matari and Gallente culture in the Republic is sometimes fraught (quite a lot of "thank you for your assistance, but we have our own ways of doing things now") it's still there in various fields and some circles, sought out, courted or disapproved of in different measures.
General comments:
From Earth experience, properly-suppressed languages and cultures don't survive well. I don't expect a language and culture to survive as a living language and culture beyond maybe three generations of slavery, and I consider that a stretch. There's a difference, though, between "properly suppressed" and "allowed to continue within its own community", and that's where I have all sorts of questions which don't currently have answers. For now, your corner of the cluster might have quite different conditions to mine.
I really dislike the Minmatar retcon. It changes a bunch of fundamental stuff without giving us new stuff to work with, and generally makes Minmatar world-building a shaky and unstable field where many of the things we'd taken as reasonable extensions of the old canon are now probably wrong.
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There was a lot of african languages thrown into the mix by the U'K folk.
Originally CCP had a bunch of Minny NPC names based on Swahili.
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There was a lot of african languages thrown into the mix by the U'K folk.
Originally CCP had a bunch of Minny NPC names based on Swahili.
I had a girlfriend that learned that language back in college.
On topic, I'm not really sure what to think of race languages, when you think about how diverse our individual planet is and then look at the hundreds and thousands of worlds that make up each empire, etc. While space travel might lead to some homogenization, it also seems like they should be speaking languages we've never imagined - which, ofc, would make them rather hard to RP :P
dammit, I out logicked myself.
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Which is sort of my point. In my view, projects like this should focus on some local dialect or language, rather than "this is how Minmatar speak".
Or, even worse, "this is how you primitive Minmatar speak." That approach typically doesn't get a lot of buy-in from the players who've spent a lot of time worldbuilding in that area.
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Which is sort of my point. In my view, projects like this should focus on some local dialect or language, rather than "this is how Minmatar speak".
Or, even worse, "this is how you primitive Minmatar speak." That approach typically doesn't get a lot of buy-in from the players who've spent a lot of time worldbuilding in that area.
I think part of the issue though, is we as the players want a language that we can use with others. We want a Minmatar version of Napanii, something most minmatar would speak so we can have our conversations in it.
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/me changes from fluent Amarrish to Modern Standard Matari, then looks around and changes into an obscure northern dialect.
Hmm... would you look at that. One single emote and I did exactly that, 'kita.
Stick with creating small local flavor additions. I'll be sticking to the translators, myself.
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Which is sort of my point. In my view, projects like this should focus on some local dialect or language, rather than "this is how Minmatar speak".
Or, even worse, "this is how you primitive Minmatar speak." That approach typically doesn't get a lot of buy-in from the players who've spent a lot of time worldbuilding in that area.
I think part of the issue though, is we as the players want a language that we can use with others. We want a Minmatar version of Napanii, something most minmatar would speak so we can have our conversations in it.
Who's "we", kemo-sabe (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhoDoYouMeanWeKemoSabe)?
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Who's "we", kemo-sabe (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhoDoYouMeanWeKemoSabe)?
QFT.
More than half my corp don't do English as a first language. I'm happy making them talk in only one made up langage.
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How I play Matari languages...
The Republic uses:
- Modern Standard Matari
- Amarish and Amarish patois
- various tribal and clan dialects appropriate to each area.
Also, especially in popular culture:
I don't deal with Matari things much, but when I do, I take a similar approach to this. I've also played:
- There's a Sebiestor dialect (or "standardized" amalgamation of dialects) that has some popularity in science and engineering journals. It's a required subject in some Federation technical schools.
- Thukker have a common officer-only language for flotilla-to-flotilla comms, which is used instead of relying on translators. Each flotilla otherwise has its own dialect.
- The Vherokior have a very well preserved common tribal language. It's not spoken in front of outsiders (or half-breeds of their own kind, unless they are proven devoted to the family unit): business transactions are handled using the outsider's language, even if the Vherokoir's command of that language is shaky or non-existent. Vherokoir are also notorious for feigning a shaky command of an outsider's language, especially if the outsider's an asshole.
- One reason that the Vherokoir language has survived so long is that in the written form, it's practically indistinguishable from decoration. When other languages began to be repressed by the Empire, and their written works destroyed, the Vherokoir destroyed their own written works and watched their language survive as ornamentation on clothing, leather goods, furniture, pottery ... and in time, pretty filigree tattoos on Amarr skin. Not that any Vherokoir who values his or her survival would ever claim that a devout Amarr heiress was walking around with their alphabet and oh, "Ask me about my vegetable-oriented fetishes" branded on her forehead.
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Nice. Thanks, Vieve. :)
(I'm still unsure how far the Amarrian ban (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tattoos_%28Chronicle%29) extended and whether it covered all tattooing or only Matari tattooing on Matari. But if tattooing is the sort of thing an Amarrian heiress might do I'd love it if it included the vegetables.)
Also, from my play:
- There's a language of hand signals that's used particularly in commerce: market haggling can be done with a rapid flurry of movements even in a crowded and noisy bazaar. This language can be used for basic communication in other loud environments (between waitstaff in a crowded cafe; at a rustcore concert), where there's enforced silence (certain rituals; once the fussy children have finally gone to sleep); for communication at a distance; or as private communication when one part of an audience can see your hands and another part can't.
I think I gave this a name, once. If I find that I'll edit it in.
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Nice. Thanks, Vieve. :)
(I'm still unsure how far the Amarrian ban (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tattoos_%28Chronicle%29) extended and whether it covered all tattooing or only Matari tattooing on Matari. But if tattooing is the sort of thing an Amarrian heiress might do I'd love it if it included the vegetables.)
You're welcome! Dark powers, happy to help, and all that.
(The idea about the Vherokoir-language related tattooing came up when we had our old avatars. I figured that 'purely ornamental' things might be preserved, when Voluval marks and obvious symbolism wouldn't.)
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Languages. A favorite topic of mine, indeed.
We have no idea what, if any, language family(s) the Matari languages are descended from, or even if they have anything at all to do with our languages in the here and now. However, a few things to consider:
Minmatar languages are certainly varied. The "tribes" seem more akin to what we would label as "tribal groups" rather than as "tribes" in the sense we tend to think of them, and all members of a tribal group would probably speak related, but not necessarily identical, dialects of the same language. My mother was Roma, and the Romani people are a good example of such a culture group; the language varies quite widely depending on location, mostly due to inclusion of loanwords from surrounding languages, but also due to simple dialectical differences.
Amarrian loanwords, as well as Gallente to a lesser extent, would likely fill Matari language, and some attempt would almost certainly be made at some form of standard Matari, even if it were little more than a "Minmatarized" Amarrian or Gallente.
Local dialects would be interesting; The Sebiestor, for example, being from the polar regions of Matar, would likely have lots of words for "snow" or "ice" but very few for "sunshine".
I had always imagined that Sebiestor was patterned after a norse language, with similar structures, due to the apparent mythological similarities, but meh... who knows.
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If we're assuming a similar seasonal shift as with Earth, (adjusted for length of year) then the Sebiestor would have a lot of words for sunshine. The polar regions half half a year of snow and darkness and the other half the damn sun refuses to go down.
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... Vherokoir ... Vherokoir ... Vherokoir ... Vherokoir ... Vherokoir ...
Vherokior ;)
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So, I know we're not going to reach anything remotely near a consensus on speech patterns or languages, and we know that there are likely to be many, many, many many languages in Matari culture. But would it be somehow possible to develop a matari Lingua franca that could be used by all minmatar RPers the way Napanii is used for the Caldari? Because I think that'd be rather fun to have.
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No, no, no and... oh wait, no.
Napanii isn't even used by all Caldari, nor would there be any 'lingua franca' for the Matari.
You can create whatever you want, but trying to impose that shit on other RPers isn't going to happen.
There's people of all manner of clans out there, and each of them have their own view of their clans.
The language, the roots of it, the culture, everything. The same goes for 'universal' languages.
I know I will damn sure refute any 'universal' Matari language based on Gaelic or whatever.
The Gripdjur wouldn't be speaking that, with their remnants of Norse influences still around.
Is it really so hard to just invent something for your own clan? It doesn't impose anything on others, and still gives you what you want.
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No, no, no and... oh wait, no.
QFE.
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Is it really so hard to just invent something for your own clan? It doesn't impose anything on others, and still gives you what you want.
I'm guessing here, but I don't think it would. My impression is that Nikita thinks the way the Caldari all say "Sisal" when they meet each other, and "Wakka" when they leave and "Moitay" when they're wishing people good fortune is kind of cool in a secret-language-part-of-the-in-crowd sort of way, and if the only person using your secret language is you, it sort of defeats the purpose (Which was mostly the problem I had with PGP integration into my email - nobody else ever encrypted anything)
So what it seems to me Nikita is actually asking for is a way of having the Matari differentiate in speech from the non-matari on chat channels, possibly to have another sense of belonging, (or exclusion of the other) I'm not sure about that.
While it works (in my opinion) for the Caldari, for whom cultural uniformity seems to be very important, I'm not sure it makes sense for the Matari, and I don't personally support it.
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I'd also note that not all Caldari use those terms.
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Is it really so hard to just invent something for your own clan? It doesn't impose anything on others, and still gives you what you want.
I'm guessing here, but I don't think it would. My impression is that Nikita thinks the way the Caldari all say "Sisal" when they meet each other, and "Wakka" when they leave and "Moitay" when they're wishing people good fortune is kind of cool in a secret-language-part-of-the-in-crowd sort of way, and if the only person using your secret language is you, it sort of defeats the purpose (Which was mostly the problem I had with PGP integration into my email - nobody else ever encrypted anything)
So what it seems to me Nikita is actually asking for is a way of having the Matari differentiate in speech from the non-matari on chat channels, possibly to have another sense of belonging, (or exclusion of the other) I'm not sure about that.
While it works (in my opinion) for the Caldari, for whom cultural uniformity seems to be very important, I'm not sure it makes sense for the Matari, and I don't personally support it.
That was basically it, but if you guys really don't think it would work at all...eh, whatever.
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[...] the Caldari all say "Sisal" when they meet each other, and "Wakka" when they leave and "Moitay" when they're wishing people good fortune [...]
/me still grins at Ulf's mutilation of Napanii.
While it works (in my opinion) for the Caldari, for whom cultural uniformity seems to be very important, I'm not sure it makes sense for the Matari, and I don't personally support it.
As an advocate of Modern Standard Matari, I think there could be a uniform language that most of us in the Republic do understand. However, at the moment my impression is that most Matari roleplayers are happy to assume that the translator can take care of our communication needs except when there's a concept or thing that doesn't have an easy translation.
Maybe, instead of making up new vocabulary for things we have words for, consider the ways you'd use the words you have? How do you greet people or take your leave of them? Do you talk differently with people whose clan you don't know? Do you talk with them at all? What concepts are good and might be referred to in well-wishing? Freedom? Wellness? Good hunting? Kinstrength? Maybe see what you can draw out of things like that to explore how you might speak as a Matari.
If you want to speak as an Angel... that's something to explore in a similar way.
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... Vherokoir ... Vherokoir ... Vherokoir ... Vherokoir ... Vherokoir ...
Vherokior ;)
Now you know the secret behind why I've never played one as a PC. And my characters tend to call them 'Vherkies".
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And my characters tend to call them 'Vherkies".
"Vherks", "Sebbies" and for some reason mine never get around to shortening "Brutor".
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'Verries", "Sebbies", and "Bruce".
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I never really shortened them IC. I did for the longest time misspell Sebiestor as Sebestior for some reason. I do use the Sinister Ones term relatively often IC, as Miz would have embraced that particular concept.
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I never really shortened them IC. I did for the longest time misspell Sebiestor as Sebestior for some reason. I do use the Sinister Ones term relatively often IC, as Miz would have embraced that particular concept.
My natural (that is OOC) inclination is to call them "Seabeasts". I try to refrain from doing that ICly. :P
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The "which languages do you speak" topic got me thinking.
MSM was probably developed using the remnants of the old matari languages that survived, and given that the Thukker's mostly avoided enslavement, a good portion of MSM is probably lifted from the thukker language. So I'm thinking that Old Thukker Matari would probably be mostly understandable by someone speaking Modern Standard Matari, and vice versa, probably not close enough to be considered dialects of the same language, but almost there.
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MSM was probably developed using the remnants of the old matari languages that survived, and given that the Thukker's mostly avoided enslavement, a good portion of MSM is probably lifted from the thukker language. So I'm thinking that Old Thukker Matari would probably be mostly understandable by someone speaking Modern Standard Matari, and vice versa, probably not close enough to be considered dialects of the same language, but almost there.
While on the one hand that sounds plausible, on the other the Thukker weren't involved in the formation of the Republic and were until recently opponents of the Republic.
This is one of the areas where it matters whether there was a continuous living tradition of Matari cultures. If there was, Modern Standard Matari is probably a standardised version of whatever the "Free Matari" ended up speaking. That might itself have been a homogenised tongue.1
If, on the other hand, the Amarrian occupation was comprehensive and all Matari other than the Thukker were either enslaved or Ammatarised for 800 odd years -- which is what I had for a long time assumed -- the creation of MSM would likely be the development of a synthetic language somewhat based on whatever records remained (perhaps preserved in Amarrian repositories that had been won back), the works of newly-freed Amarrian-trained Matari scholars (they exist) and Gallentean anthropologists ... and a certain amount of wishful thinking.
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1 Detour for pure speculation: Before getting into spaceflight it's said of Matar that "[w]ith the enabling of world-wide communications, a global culture develops, steeped in the Minmatar tribal traditions (http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=History:Minmatar_History)". I think it's likely, although not certain, that in a global culture there would be one language that would become a widely-shared second language and lingua franca, and that if that did happen on Matar that language would already have been in a strong position when Matari colonies were established. Later, when the Cradle of the Tribes was occupied and many/most of the People of the Tribes taken into captivity, that lingua franca might have developed as the shared language of the resistance. Maybe.
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It seemed prudent to just go ahead and ask (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1524010) about the occupation.
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Clarified the exact time scale of Minmatar subjugation at the hands of Amarr. Canon sources variously claimed the Minmatar were invaded and conquered wholesale in 22480 or that the Amarr were still invading and conquering their planets at the time of the Rebellion in 23216; canon has been modified to fit the latter scenario. This effectively puts current web site timelines out of date; the timelines will be given a full revamp soon.
The clarification and retcon happened two years ago, and isn't in doubt. Many/most of us missed it, becoming aware of it only this year. I'm not aware that the background has been developed to give more of a sense of how things happened and how that affects culture, language, and internal debates about cultural authenticity within the Republic.
I mentioned it mostly because my world-building was done under the "other" set of assumptions. I don't yet have enough information to build something I consider reasonable based on the new history and, to be honest, I'm a bit frustrated and disgruntled about that situation. (You guessed? :P )
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Clarified the exact time scale of Minmatar subjugation at the hands of Amarr. Canon sources variously claimed the Minmatar were invaded and conquered wholesale in 22480 or that the Amarr were still invading and conquering their planets at the time of the Rebellion in 23216; canon has been modified to fit the latter scenario. This effectively puts current web site timelines out of date; the timelines will be given a full revamp soon.
The clarification and retcon happened two years ago, and isn't in doubt. Many/most of us missed it, becoming aware of it only this year. I'm not aware that the background has been developed to give more of a sense of how things happened and how that affects culture, language, and internal debates about cultural authenticity within the Republic.
I mentioned it mostly because my world-building was done under the "other" set of assumptions. I don't yet have enough information to build something I consider reasonable based on the new history and, to be honest, I'm a bit frustrated and disgruntled about that situation. (You guessed? :P )
Yeah, if I'd been here for the retcon, I'd have been rather unhappy with it too. I'm still unhappy that it occurred at all.
But we have to work with what we've got, thus:
The Matari had a functional government, military, culture and economy, during the entire time of the occupation.
We can infer things from this:- There was likely a version of modern standard matari that predated the occupation, and was used in a fashion similar to how english is used on earth currently.
- Each tribe likely had at least one language of its own, possibly more then one, and that the various clans had their own dialects.
- All the tribe languages, save that of the Starkmanir, and possibly the brutor, were likely to survive mostly intact.
- All the tribe languages would likely be sprinkled with loanwords from MSM, and, following the liberation, Amarrish. There may or may not be loanword overlap between MSM and Amarrish, I wouldn't be able to definitively say.
Do we want to suppose that the two pictures Seri showed earlier in the thread are different styles of writing the same language?
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The Matari had a functional government, military, culture and economy, during the entire time of the occupation.
I don't think so. It's specifically mentioned that all Minmatar armed forces were swept away, and that then and over the next millennium the Amarrians were able to conduct slave raids regularly and apparently with impunity.
The Day of Darkness was properly named. That day saw one of the worst storms ever on the biggest continent on Matar, laying incredible amount of destruction in few short hours. But greater danger loomed, because that same day six giant slave vessels entered the Pator system. From there each ship set out for a different Minmatar planet, escorted by heavily armed military ships. Once in orbit the Amarrians descended onto the surface and started rounding up people. The Minmatars put up a brave resistance, but to no avail, the superior Amarr technology swept all Minmatar armed forces away, then plundered the populace at will. In addition, the Amarrians took great care of destroying every Minmatar space ship and installation they encountered, with the intent of making it very difficult for the Minmatars to gain strong space presence.
The Amarrians enslaved hundreds of millions of Minmatar in that first raid. Over the next millennium they would repeat their slave raids with regularity, capturing hundreds of millions more and throwing the Minmatar nation into a state of confusion, sorrow and insecurity.
In addition, during the Amarrian "occupation", Amarr made edicts controlling the actions of Matari, and those edicts had the effect of suppressing and breaking the continuity of a tradition which was supposedly core to Matariness.
The Minmatar tattoo artists of today are forever seeking to regain the knowledge and skill that was lost to them when the Amarr, during their occupation of the Minmatar, issued an edict banning the practice.
So I'm not getting the sense from these that there was a continuous cultural tradition -- if so, why didn't it keep tattooing going if that's "an integral part of their culture and customs"? -- or a continuous Matari government.
Perhaps the Pator planets were occupied and used as a renewable source of slaves, while the colonies in Lustrevik and Eystur(?) were left alone and eventually developed their own government-in-exile. In that case, though, why was the tattooing tradition broken?
My sense is that the PF about this is still muddled and in need of clear direction. I hope the current project might provide that. In the meantime, I don't see enough consistency within what we have now to be able to build much. Good on you for optimism and creation-in-the-face-of-the-nihilistic-void, but the current unstable foundations leave me not able to support your inferences.
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Oh lovely PF contradictions...
that really does just leave us awfully boxed into a corner.
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Oh lovely PF contradictions...
that really does just leave us awfully boxed into a corner.
Yes. It really does.
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I think the best way to view the Amarrian occupation and enslavement of Matari is comparing it to Western Africa when they were raided by European raiders for slaves. The slaving powers never actually outright conquered all of western Africa, nor all of the people. What they did to was tear the heart out of a lot of local and tribal leadership, and what society did remain was traumatized and constantly in strife. They manipulated local customs and trade conventions, and used the African tribes to play off one another. They never tried to conquer all of them, they knew they couldn't, they simply wanted to secure a steady supply of slaves, and sow enough strife and discord that no effective resistance could be mounted.
I could easily see the Amarrians adopting a similar tactic. I actually had always written in Gottiis back story that at least some Matari had escaped Amarrian enslavement. It never made sense to me that the Amarrians could find a way to capture every single Matari settlement or spaceship, nor that Matari culture could survive centuries of outright enslavement. After all, if the Matari had warp drives, it would be nearly impossible to enslave them all, they would constantly be running a system ahead of you.
Instead, the Amarrians crippled the Matar Empire, enslaved their leadership, beat down most centers of resistance, avoided the few pockets they couldnt outright conquer due to interstellar "terrain" and heavy resistance (think the US army never being able to put down the Seminole tribe in the Everglades, or the British with the Maori in the mountains of New Zealand), and basically made life miserable for the free Matari for untold centuries. Even without outright enslavement of every living Matari, the economic, political and cultural damage would have been devastating.
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I agree of course, but this assumes that the Amarr Empire raided the Minmatar only for a labor force like did the europeans in the past. I am not sure if the PF states either if it was for a labor force, or either because they actually totally believed in their "enlightement through slavery" thing. If the second case was the most important of both, they would probably not have raided the Republic like this (european style, like leeches, or like the collectors in Mass Effect), and could have actually invaded it planet by planet or tribe by tribe instead, very methodically, occupying every one of their conquests afterwise, much like the Roman Empire.
Maybe a mix of both.
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Mix of both would be most likely. The Empire itself slowly rolling along claiming worlds, while the less scrupulous holders made slave raids forward into minmatar space, ripping apart their infrastructure and keeping them scattered and disorganized.
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Just want to clarify again, my attempt at a language was meant to be for a tiny tiny group, so I apologize if my gaelic celtic thing threw anyone off :)
As for the Minmatar under the occupation of the Amarr, I don't think its so much a mix of both as first one, then the other. The timeline says that raids were conducted for 125 years. So, Gotti's analogy with Western Africa. Most likely the Amarrians would destroy any space or military infrastructure it encountered at this time, take the number of people they wanted and leave, wash, rinse, repeat.
Then, in 22480 Matar was conquered, but other Minmatar planets are left alone. This sounds like they are not trying to rip apart any remaining infrastructure, but rather funnel it to their own ends, much like the British Empire in India, or Hong Kong. This analogy also fits well to what the ratio of Minmatar to Amarr would have been on Minmatar worlds at this time. While conquering these people could be done, wiping out the major languages and culture shared across planets would next to impossible.
By 22947 they have occupied Starkman Prime for at least a generation. Whatever planets that are left to be conquered are probably not large ones, and most likely not habitable, being mining colonies, or even just stations. In a context like this, banning certain practises like tattooing might indeed make them come to be forgotten (Since the Nefantar would have given it up freely). It is probably not the only part of their culture that got tweaked, but in the end, its hardly enough to completely destroy a culture of what is likely to be at the bare minimum three or four billions of people, even over the course of hundreds of years.
Any slaves transported back to empire would of course lose touch with their roots and language, and here I think it goes back to Gotti's analogy again, further extended. There would probably be Minmatar patois' local to different Amarrian Holdings.
Think the PF is just fine *shrugs*
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Well, its still a mix of both, but spreaded on different periods.
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The Language is common to all, I think, but yeah I think its resonabloe to assume there are tribal dialects.
Overall though Id say theres much more of an African influence on the langauge, just going from the vowels and the sharp consonants.
Say it to yourself in your head: "Maleatu Shakor"
Then again, looking at some of the regional and solar system names, theres a bit of Gaelic/Nordic in there to.
Anybody got anything on some Native American language? Just thinking, looking at the Vherokior Tribe emblem
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"Maleatu Shakor"
Concerning that, I once figured out a solution to the Maleatu/Malaetu debacle:
It's actually a diphtong in whatever language the name comes from - like Ä or Æ in nordic languages. Romanization of the diphtong letter simply isn't universally agreed upon.
Or, you know... :psyccp:
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So, crazy, but some of us have theorized that the Matari speak Spanish...
A random corpie > Panama City, Panama, is 40% native/Spanish mixed origin (Starkmanir), 15% Afro-Antillean (Brutor), 15% East Asian (Vherokior), 15% European mix and Jewish (Sebiestor), and 10% North American (Thukker). There's my proposal
A similar language, influenced by Amarrian ( Spanish has a lot of Arabic loanwords ) spoken by a diverse group of people, all over the modern world, of a wide range of ethnicity... no, I dont literally mean "spanish" but, if people want a language most are familiar with as a background... why not?
No sé para seguro, pero pienso que lo es tan logica como algúna otra lengua?
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That just sounds plenly weird :lol:
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A similar language, influenced by Amarrian ( Spanish has a lot of Arabic loanwords ) spoken by a diverse group of people, all over the modern world, of a wide range of ethnicity... no, I dont literally mean "spanish" but, if people want a language most are familiar with as a background... why not?
No sé para seguro, pero pienso que lo es tan logica como algúna otra lengua?
How is 'most' familiar with Spanish?
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Uh, the same way most people are familiar with arabic, or hindi, or english, or mandarin, or any other widely spoken language?
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I think the Romance languages already have a (justifiable) history of use to stand in for dialects of Gallentean.
I would like to know how the solar systems of the Republic -- beyond the original (three?) Matari systems -- got their names, and whether they were renamed after the successful rebellion. The Old Norse(-ish) influence in their naming is once of the few guides we've got for what might be something Matari.
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There's also the plethora of Norse inspired shipnames, of course.
Ava: I seem to be misunderstanding you. I'm not sure what you mean by 'most' here. Most Eve players? Most RPers?
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Ava: I seem to be misunderstanding you. I'm not sure what you mean by 'most' here. Most Eve players? Most RPers?
She means most human beings. And she means "know of" not "actively speak"
Also, after spending the last few hours listening to Eluveitie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msRy4vcSX4k) for the last few hours with Ava, we're both rather convinced that is what matari should sound like, both the language, and the music, and the way they link together.
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Chintaku (http://www.dust514.com/en/chronicles/article/2017/stranded-part-3) seems to mean lover.
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I think the Romance languages already have a (justifiable) history of use to stand in for dialects of Gallentean.
I would like to know how the solar systems of the Republic -- beyond the original (three?) Matari systems -- got their names, and whether they were renamed after the successful rebellion. The Old Norse(-ish) influence in their naming is once of the few guides we've got for what might be something Matari.
The agent names as well as names available in the new name generator for character creation might also give some hints to how Matari languages might sound like. ( http://www.electusmatari.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=7862&pid=78887#pid78887 has a list of available last names in character generator )
I am no language expert, but browsing them, Matari names do seem to have (at least) Norse influences. Sebiestors the strongest, Brutor some, and Vherokior less. I don't speak Spanish, but the names available do not seem like stereotypical hispanic last names to me.
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I am no language expert, but browsing them, Matari names do seem to have (at least) Norse influences. Sebiestors the strongest, Brutor some, and Vherokior less. I don't speak Spanish, but the names available do not seem like stereotypical hispanic last names to me.
From the in-game evidence of names for agents and systems the strongest Matari linguistic contributor appears to be a Germanic language that's a simplified version of Old Norse. Some of the elements are recognisably straight from Old Norse, including:
- Arn- 'eagle': Arnher, Arnstur, Arngur Idulf;
- Helg- 'dedicated to the gods': Helgatild, Helgatild Lianuard;
- Hjort- 'hart, deer': Hjortur;
- Hror 'sword': Hror;
- Ragn- 'counsel': Ragnarg, Ragnar Evald;
- -gard 'courtyard, enclosure': Nakugard, Eytjangard;
- -mold 'earth': Ammold, Hjoramold;
- -ulf 'wolf': Eldulf, Meirakulf, Oddelulf, Oremmulf;
- -hard 'tough, fierce': Urnhard; and
- -vik 'inlet, harbour': Lustrevik.
It also includes the fairly distinctive initial "hr" and "hj" of these languages in names like Hrokkur and Hjoramold.
From the ship names we have direct references to Old Norse myth: Huginn and Muninn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn), Nidhoggur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidhoggur), Naglfar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naglfar), Ragnarok (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarok), Fenrir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenrir) and Loki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki).
So if you're going for any language as the well of inspiration for "Matari" I'd suggest Old Norse or proto-Norse, maybe with a look at modern-Icelandic-on-a-Latin-keyboard and Old High German.
That said, if you're playing that there are distinct tribal languages, whether revived or surviving, you get quite a lot of leeway to invent your thing. Just... there might not be many people to speak it with, and if you're using the translator anyway it all comes out as English (or French, or Russian, depending on who you play with).
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The ridiculous amount of Norse stuff in Minmatar naming and such along with the fairly well established 'pale and sinister' Sebiestor stuff is what made me take a Norse approach to the Gripdjur clan. Basing things off of Norse just seems to be the most supported path for Sebiestor stuff in general. Language and culture both, especially given the northerner approach.
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The ridiculous amount of Norse stuff in Minmatar naming and such along with the fairly well established 'pale and sinister' Sebiestor stuff is what made me take a Norse approach to the Gripdjur clan. Basing things off of Norse just seems to be the most supported path for Sebiestor stuff in general. Language and culture both, especially given the northerner approach.
This is actually what I would have to agree with. I think the relation between Norse names and language fits the bill. There's also several of the system names in Minmatar space, such as Hofjalgund and Gulmgarod (sp?)
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Hofdjaldgund and Gulmorogod.
But you can also say Ikea, we will understand.
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Glad you know their spelling, Lyn!
I usually just go with, "Those systems...yeah, those ones, the ones I can't spell. The Matari ones...No, not Auga...those ones!"
:bash:
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See, I see where you're getting the Norse references and I agree that there's a lot of Norse influence, but I just can't imagine the matari language sounding like that. Its just not...its not the right sound structure.
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Very nice, Matariki. I'm sure CCP is not that acute, but those name origins could perhaps relate to culture of each system in someway?
And why not, Nikita? What else do you think it would sound like?
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I imagine it sounds like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EplEsr5IVj0)
also, I imagine matari music sounding like that too.
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I think the point Nikita is making is that the Matari are tribal and much of their culture (aside from naming conventions apparently) seems to find its base in South American/South African tribal cultures.
It is natural to correlate language and music to match culture as we perceive it.
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RL tribalism extends much further than those regions. It even extends further than those societies which use the term...
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RL tribalism extends much further than those regions. It even extends further than those societies which use the term...
in terms of specific language, I was actually thinking celtic, because I really do love the way those languages sound, they just scream matari to me. The language that song is in is an extinct Celtic language called Gaulish.
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I think the point Nikita is making is that the Matari are tribal and much of their culture (aside from naming conventions apparently) seems to find its base in South American/South African tribal cultures.
I realise you're trying to clarify a point someone else is making, so take the "you" in my reply as a general thing covering anyone actually claiming this.
Can you share any sort of evidence -- even suggestion-type stuff rather than hard stuff -- to support this? Why do you think that much of Matari culture seems to find its base in South American/South African tribal cultures?
As an example of the sort of supporting evidence that would be useful, there's a book The Art of EVE (http://www.amazon.com/Art-EVE-Reynir-Hardarson/dp/1588467481) which (apparently, I haven't seen it) says the Brutor were originally inspired by Maori. That confirmed my impression based on the early race description (http://www.eveonline.com/races/minmatartribe_intro.asp) that they were Polynesian: island navigators, tribal society, tattoos including facial whorls, mere-shaped ear pendants, and if you were making generalisations you could apply most of the same physical descriptions.
Now, based on what I've seen coming out of CCP more recently I think things have changed a little since then so I wouldn't want to advance Maori as 'the' way to play Brutor, but I think if anyone were looking for a real-world inspiration it's the culture that has the most support. Similarly, for 'general' Matari culture, and especially for Sebiestor culture, there's a good case for drawing on Old Norse elements, and there's some lovely stuff you can do with ritual, spirituality, loyalty, and bloodprice.
If you're going to assert that Matari culture seems to find its base in South American/South African tribal cultures, and particularly if you're suggesting that others should take this idea seriously and consider it for inclusion in their play, I'd like to know why you think that.
If you just happen to like it and want to use it in your portion of the world, go for it, just please don't present it as though it's more than your preference.
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I'm not really trying to pick one group for the influence of the matari, I think their influences come from all over. I'm saying what I think their language sounds like.
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I'm not really trying to pick one group for the influence of the matari, I think their influences come from all over. I'm saying what I think their language sounds like.
Would it be fair to rephrase your point as follows?
I like the sound of reconstructed Gaulish. It feels right to me as how I imagine Matari sounding. I have no evidence which would tie this to what we know of Matari, but it's cool.
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Matariki, I can personally confirm the Brutor-Maori link from The Art of EVE, as I have a copy of it.
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I'm not really trying to pick one group for the influence of the matari, I think their influences come from all over. I'm saying what I think their language sounds like.
Would it be fair to rephrase your point as follows?
I like the sound of reconstructed Gaulish. It feels right to me as how I imagine Matari sounding. I have no evidence which would tie this to what we know of Matari, but it's cool.
Thats fine, however, I don't think we really need evidence to tie it to. We don't need evidence that a group is culturally similar to the matari to base the matari language off. If we can all agree that something sounds matari, does it really matter what group we're taking it from?
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Thats fine, however, I don't think we really need evidence to tie it to. We don't need evidence that a group is culturally similar to the matari to base the matari language off. If we can all agree that something sounds matari, does it really matter what group we're taking it from?
Why do you think something sounds Matari? If you compare other words we think are probably Matari, like Hofjaldgund, or Nidhoggur, what makes you think that Gaulish sounds Matari?
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Thats fine, however, I don't think we really need evidence to tie it to. We don't need evidence that a group is culturally similar to the matari to base the matari language off. If we can all agree that something sounds matari, does it really matter what group we're taking it from?
Why do you think something sounds Matari? If you compare other words we think are probably Matari, like Hofjaldgund, or Nidhoggur, what makes you think that Gaulish sounds Matari?
Its hard to quantify. The way it can sound beautiful and flowing and melodic, or harsh and guttural depending on the speaker, the way the words sound just comes off as very matari. Its pretty, it sounds expressive, and artistic, and exotic.
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Nikita, I can appreciate that you like those things, but Ulphus et al. have a point: many of us prefer to branch off of what has been developed rather than claim an entirely new tree, at least in the sense of relating to existing PF.
An alternative, of course, would be to develop a clan's language, or perhaps some isolated tribe not associated with the primary seven. Then you have the opportunity for a true greenfield project.
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An alternative, of course, would be to develop a clan's language, or perhaps some isolated tribe not associated with the primary seven. Then you have the opportunity for a true greenfield project.
Yeah, but then I'm the only one who speaks it, so there's no point.
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So it becomes a case of "you've got to go along to get along", right? :)
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So basically "I want it to be like this. I have nothing to support it with, but I want this. Oh, and it needs to be for errybody or it's pointless." then? No thanks. I'll stick with what's got support in PF and backgrounds, and for that matter the greater Minmatar RP community in general. (Which is a vague term to begin with, but still.)
That means languages and culture based in Maori, African-Tribal and Norse origins. There's already a lot of it within the RP community, there's established clan and tribal stuff already set up and it's supported by PF. Completely out of the blue pulling in Gaelic and such without anything to point to and say "See? It's got something to support it." isn't going to fly in general, I think. I sure know that encountering it in RP will be treated as some kind of clan off-shoot or possibly head-trauma.
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Yep, a nordic language makes quite good sense for the basis of the Matari language.
Miz, emoraging every time someone brings up an idea you dont like, makes no sense.
Smoke a cigarette, eat a donut, and maybe pet the cat. It will be ok.
If someone likes the sound, flow, grammar, whatever, of a specific language, hey, more power to them. I feel the same as Nikita with regards to the "feel" of matari as a language. However, I dont think on it much, because it isnt like everyone will ever agree, and use it in daily gameplay, no matter what language people come up with. You like Maori? Cool. Go for it! I like spanish? Hey, my game! Nikita likes Gaulish? Run with it.
As far as "A lot of Maori, African-Tribal, or Norse" built into the RP community... news to me?
EDIT> this was written while Ava was tired, hot, and cranky. Take it with salt.
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'emo-raging'? Not sure where you pulled that from. There's no emo, nor rage in my posts on the matter.
As for the Maori, African-Tribal and Norse used in the Minmatar RP community, I can refer you to a lot of the naming and linguistics used by Ushra'Khan corporations and individual members, Du'uma Fiisi when that was active, and others over the years. There's the Thukker stuff that you can see within Rote Kapelle and there's the stuff made/done by Minmatar RPers in the Militia and elsewhere. There's also several examples within Electus Matari where the above influences have been extensively used.
Maori, African-Tribal and Norse influences have been used extensively within Minmatar RP over quite some time now.
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Again, I'm also not saying "this is the language that minmatar should be modelled after" I'm saying, "I like the way this language sounds and flows, and it feels very matari for me, I think when we start building the matari language, we should aim for something that sounds sort of like this."
Clear enough?
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So like...is anything getting done with this? I've seen lots of cool little bits and pieces of Matari language in places, like Chintaku, from the Stranded chronicle, meaning lover/soulmate, or Matar meaning mother, Pator meaning father...there's a foundation to start languaging, and I've seen some interesting little snippets Ava made up from her chronicles:
Kina anarek'i, kina vuuk'i
Kina cenerk'i, kina vasortek'i
Varla mei yunuki, ienka mei tache
Katrea mei kenkii, neka, iei ma evai're.
which she has the translation for as:
While we dream, while we sleep
While we work, while we play
Guard our love, guide our path
Bless our home, Spirits, please hear me.
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So like...is anything getting done with this? I've seen lots of cool little bits and pieces of Matari language in places, like Chintaku, from the Stranded chronicle, meaning lover/soulmate, or Matar meaning mother, Pator meaning father...there's a foundation to start languaging, and I've seen some interesting little snippets Ava made up from her chronicles:
The response is the same as it was before: if you want to flesh out how your clan does things, go ahead.
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Alright, in that case, I'll start putting something together, but if other people want to use it as well, I wouldn't at all mind if the language, when it was done and established, had stopped being from being a local dialect.
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As far as "A lot of Maori, African-Tribal, or Norse" built into the RP community... news to me?
My Matari blends include notable elements of Maori and Old Norse, along with a fair bit of conjectural stuff about how a certain type of group might change. (It's future fantasy after all.)