Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Saede Riordan on 26 Apr 2011, 12:07
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I'm going to bring up something that a lot of people seem to be up in arms about. That is the idea of character's having power beyond what they can project using game mechanics.
Example: I have an alt character who I use for occasional scouting an intel work, but is basically just an RP alt. I've never really trained this character up or mission ground with her. She's a hacker ICly, and I want her to be able to hack the database and find out where someone is, thus necessitating asking for a locator OOCly. When I did this, I had quite a few people telling me she shouldn't be able to do that at all, since she can't do it ingame.
Frankly I find this stupid. It means we can't RP out interesting things, like attacking colonies with troops, and, well, a large manner of things that I do think we should be able to do and that people frequently RP doing. I fully understand the whole "put up or shut up" mentality, and I try really hard to make sure my character don't overstep the abilities of what they would really be able to do, which I do think is something important, because otherwise it just turns into "who can godmode harder" but RP has always stretched outside game mechanics, why is this so strange?
Was it just the way I phrased or went about it, or do people really have issue with this?
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[mod]We welcome open debate here, but everyone responding should of course keep the FAQ in mind when exchanging views. This sort of discussion can prove very useful and informative as long as participants follow the general guidelines in doing so.TL;DR: Everybody be polite, please. :) [/mod]
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I think that's a fantastic/creative way to RP the 'agent locator' game mechanic. Makes sense and I don't think harms anyone.
Also the information you get from agents is a bit limited so probably not pushing too many buttons. I even have a 'hack' link in my bio to direct people to a longer bio page.
As far as invading planets, etc, that's a bit tougher. There's not much of a consensus.
I generally defer to 'in game' power with these sorts of things.
My personal POV:
1. A new character with an ibis is not leading any planetary invasions. I'd make a direct correlation between in-game military power and RP 'sway' on those kinds of things.
2. No one is leading any such thing in high sec, and our ability to shape planetary matters (an general illegal things) is probably severely hampered in high sec space.
3. Low sec is probably much more 'wild west' and I think there's an amazing amount of ground to explore with the outer regions and low sec systems. Minimal government presence, dicey stability, etc. KPV used to do a lot of RP where we were trying to pacify small low-sec colonies, providing troops, supporting local governments, etc. Long as we weren't stepping on other people's RP toes we played it pretty loose in low sec.
4. Null sec I think is much more 'anything goes.' As far as I'm concerned, if your name is on the system sovereignty, it's yours to RP with as you please. I worked my ass off for months to claim 7 or 8 systems and that is directly reflected in our RP regarding the area. We've been downright terrorizing the locals, subjugating the local populations, and converting by the sword so to speak, in proper Reclaiming fashion.
I think it's just important to see who else's RP you'd be messing with and what seems believable given your character's history, etc.
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4. Null sec I think is much more 'anything goes.' As far as I'm concerned, if your name is on the system sovereignty, it's yours to RP with as you please. I worked my ass off for months to claim 7 or 8 systems and that is directly reflected in our RP regarding the area. We've been downright terrorizing the locals, subjugating the local populations, and converting by the sword so to speak, in proper Reclaiming fashion.
I support this. It's not taken into consideration since we don't have many sov-holding RP alliances, but if people really want total legitimacy in everything that the OP brought up, then nullsec is the way to go. There is absolutely no way to decry this; what's yours is yours in nullsec.
In terms of "troops attacking colonies"...I'd stay off planets, but deadspace? Think of a standard mission, which has you go into a deadspace colony. If you can shoot it up with your guns, what's to say you can't deploy marines* instead and take prisoners, and then blow it up? Or taking a Caldari Navy FW plex...shoot up the ships, take POWs, capture the site, and whatever.
*In terms of marines, where do people RP them from? It's easy to pull marines if you're militia (say they are from the 24th or FDU etc.), but if you're just a freelancer, who are they going to be? Mercenaries?
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Good point on deadspace, I'd consider it a mini-pocket of 0.0 for people to RP around.
"Marines" I think would also be commensurate with the ship-class and size of your corp.
If you can afford to fly a BS with several thousand crew, it's extremely credible you'd have quite a few armed troops as part of the ship, for whatever purposes you'd need.
Maybe a frigate,etc would hold a small "SWAT" type of team as well, might make for a great story!
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RPing things that exist outside of the bounds of the game mechanics but are also quite reasonably possible within the limits of the fictional setting requires that all parties involved abide by a "gentlemen's agreement" (pardon the gender-specific term) as to what resources and abilities can be used and how things are resolved. This veers into the collaborative storytelling side of roleplay where, if we were sitting around a table, very few if any dice would be rolled and sourcebooks rarely referenced in favor of fashioning a more interesting and fast-moving narrative.
The problem is that EVE exists not around a table with a GM to oversee and supervise, but on a vast stage with no one really in charge. People will get offended if, via the client, you start playing around in EVE-the-fictional-universe in ways that stray outside the rules and limitations of EVE-the-computer-game. Personally, I try to be very tolerant of the sort of improv you're talking about Nikita. After all, it's something that I've done to a considerable degree with various levels of success. I have found, however, that when other players have been willing to meet me around that metaphorical table, we have created some of the most enjoyable RP interactions I've had in EVE.
Edit: A follow up specifically addressing "marines" and other such face-to-face combat things. I've always been wary of this primarily because of how little small unit combat figures into my appreciation of the setting. Infiltration, espionage, sabotage (hacking, sure, of course), and propaganda seem to fit New Eden better than battalions of soldiers and heavy artillery. Naturally, that will change soon with Dust and has been less and less the case since TEA anyway. Like everything else, however, this can be done well and it can be done poorly. As an example of the former I think of Saxon Hawke's abduction or even the kidnapping tit-for-tat storylines RIA ran with Seri (let's discount the less than cordial afterglow from that). Hell, even Seri staging a trial and hanging traitors to the Fed was an interesting, if dark, angle to take. Done poorly, I think of Ber Kan and all the mucking about on IGS about this-and-that regiment of Caldari light infantry.
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The short of it.
There is none.
The long of it, there is plenty of old PF which quite clearly puts out the view that the GUI that the players have is the GUI that the characters have. It would also insinuate that the power of the pod pilots is exactly what they can affect in game terms. Their ships are heavily restricted in what they can perceive of the universe just to keep them from doing something like attacking a populated planet with the firepower at their disposal.
You can play around with the assets that you have actual access to, market items, quest items, but real power.
Characters have none.
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The short of it.
There is none.
The long of it, there is plenty of old PF which quite clearly puts out the view that the GUI that the players have is the GUI that the characters have. It would also insinuate that the power of the pod pilots is exactly what they can affect in game terms. Their ships are heavily restricted in what they can perceive of the universe just to keep them from doing something like attacking a populated planet with the firepower at their disposal.
You can play around with the assets that you have actual access to, market items, quest items, but real power.
Characters have none.
I Object (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=15-06-10)
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Characters also don't have access to walnut-paneled clubs for discussions of politics and business, but many of us RP that we meet in such places.
To limit ourselves simply to the UI and IG items seems unnecessarily restrictive, though of course the line between reasonable and unreasonable will vary somewhat.
I personally like to use IG props where possible. So in recent IC discussions about on-the-ground security, Iurnan felt that he needed some troops. I put up some buy orders and now I feel like it's not ridiculous for him to claim that he's got a battalion of marines at his disposal (since he's got >1k in his hangar).
Still thinking about the issues related to what Ken describes as "infiltration, espionage, sabotage (hacking, sure, of course), and propaganda," because I want to direct my RP back in that direction as well.
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It is quite of a different scale of changing that paradigm by playing pretend with like minded players than stating that one has for example destroyed a planet, taken over a colony, made a colony or anything of the scale that would affect a big chunk of the in game reality that other people would have to validate by constantly reacting to it.
Same goes for all self generated content which has solely been created to make your character appear more powerful in comparison to others.
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Same goes for all self generated content which has solely been created to make your character appear more powerful in comparison to others.
There are plenty of in-game mechanics for us to easily make a determination of who is 'more powerful' than whom within reason.
Wealth, influence over other capsuleers, total assets, experience, combat prowess, I use these things to validate whom I give credit to on many RP topics that involve such things.
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Roleplaying has rules and mechanics, storytelling does not.
You cant kill that dragon while playing with others unless the mechanic says your charater can.
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I think its time for CCP to put out a table top RPG of this game. Imagine using the character sheets and mechanics of the table top version to influence our "face to face" outcomes in game. We set up a random dice generator to use and can be view by multiple parties as proof of the roll. Wishful thinking I suppose.
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They started and then cancelled that exact projection, Invelious. :(
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They started and then cancelled that exact projection, Invelious. :(
:bash: someone call whitewolf. I love the D10 dot system.
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I disagree.
Locator agents are expensive and restricted for reasons.
When you ask an agent to locate someone, they have to request information from:
Their own corps stations
Other corps stations
Stargate operators
to get movement logs and other records, to locate the last known position of a capsuleer.
That's why it's expensive, it is using a lot of computing resources, and substantial sums of money are transferred in order to pay for it all. that's why the faster locators are more expensive.
"hacking" it, I don't see as possible, because of all the payments and lookups that need to be done.
If you say you "hacked" it, you are god moding being able to falsify authorisations for access to a whole lot of megacorp station networks. Not a "database", but many.
besides all that, asking other people to expend money for you, even if you reimburse them, is problematic, as wallet transactions are IC. Unless it's your own character. In which case, vOv.
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I assume the problem with any official EVE RPG is that there's not enough flesh to the bones for the factions - at least as CCP is aware of and what would be required for a good product. I think I've seen a few player-made settings for other systems, though.
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"hacking" it, I don't see as possible, because of all the payments and lookups that need to be done
If Nikita were to develop a more detailed explanation of her character's "hacking" abilities in a way that plausibly overcame the obstacles you've explained, would you still reject it?
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The locator 'agent' you pay is bribing or hacking their way to the same information, I think it an extremely small IC leap to assume you as a capsuleer could do the same, and just cutting out a single middleman (of many that are surely involved).
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I can't even put on new clothes in-game, much less have a drink at a bar. There is no representation in game of many of even the basest functions.
Nobody that is taking a drink is actually consuming a portion of a unit of spirits. Nobody ever consumes food etc.
It is all about perception really. Get people to believe that you did.
I can easily make up a story about some space battle I've had and post it on the IGS. Purely in-game but completely made up. I could tell you I've colonized some planets I've never colonized in-game. I could claim I've been behind certain plots that led to the fall of alliances.
Make it believable enough, and people will believe. It doesn't need to be in-game, it doesn't even need to be truthful.
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"hacking" it, I don't see as possible, because of all the payments and lookups that need to be done
If Nikita were to develop a more detailed explanation of her character's "hacking" abilities in a way that plausibly overcame the obstacles you've explained, would you still reject it?
I don't know. They appear to be saying they ask other characters/players to do that for them, which I don't feel fits.
Besides which, there are other issues.
E.g. I have +7 with the Amarr Empire, a consequence of which is that every Amarrian corporations locator agents are open to me. Hurr, standings, but I also have sufficient with other npc corporations directly, e.g. Sarum Family, whose top locator agent, Avel Sounillier I have worked for quite a lot.
Now, to me, this suggests that I have some level of trust and influence, that is sufficient that people are willing to authorise actions on my behalf (i.e. locator agents).
However, this "hacking the locator database", says that this level of IC trust and influence is worth nothing, because you could just use an alt and "hack" it.
Using an alt to obtain the location, and saying you "hacked the information", in my opinion, is rude to anyone who does have the ability to use the locator agents directly.
It says "Hey, your trust and influence is worth nothing, hahaha", imo.
Same for a whole lot of other usage of alts.
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I think its time for CCP to put out a table top RPG of this game. Imagine using the character sheets and mechanics of the table top version to influence our "face to face" outcomes in game. We set up a random dice generator to use and can be view by multiple parties as proof of the roll. Wishful thinking I suppose.
They started and then cancelled that exact projection, Invelious. :(
They started and then cancelled that exact projection, Invelious. :(
:bash: someone call whitewolf. I love the D10 dot system.
So sad. I'd buy it knowing full well I wouldnt have anyone to play it with, but the use it would be to EVE RP is nice to think about.
One thing this makes me think of though is that if CCP either doesnt care enough or doesnt think it will make enough money to be viable why dont we just make our own? It shouldnt be that hard to agree on a setup to use for character sheets and the dice roll generator is a great idea for RP in general regardless of having a character sheet or not.
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Just asked CCP Fallout about the RPG. I'll see if she can't tell us something about it. ;)
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It says "Hey, your trust and influence is worth nothing, hahaha", imo.
There is usually more than one way to get what you want in real life, and in this case we're talking about something as straightforward as finding out where another person is at the moment. Doesn't seem like the sort of data that would be so secretive that only a few people privileged by trust and influence could acquire it. In fact, it's not. Any locator agent anywhere (depending on their level) can provide you with that information regardless of individual faction or corp affiliation. If you can locate someone through Sarum Family and I can do so through Federation Navy, am I saying that your influence with Amarr is somehow less meaningful by doing so? I don't think so and I don't think RPing that I acquired the information by other means does so either.
There is always room for Mary Sue to crop up in things like this, but it comes down to plausibility and style. Is it plausible one could find location data by some contrived scheme that is best summed up as "hacking"? Sure, I suppose it is. Just like its possible for both "60 Minutes" and Ali-G to get an interview with Donald Trump. Obviously, such "novel" routes to one's objective are increasingly difficult to reuse and can easily stray into the territory of the absurd, but for a one off twist I'm all for Nikita's improv take on an otherwise bland mechanic.
I see this more as a case of "Well, I have my sources too..." rather than "lol, i hacked teh concord"
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Not sure if this is entirely relevant, but here goes anyway.
Though I never buy GTCs, I do sometimes get money for entirely OOC reasons (I once wrote something in the EVE Livejournal community that was apparently so funny it was worth 100m ISK to one of the readers). If that happens, I have a way of explaining it IC, which is as follows:
Andreus' father is the current patriarch of the Ixiris family, which all told owns roughly 18% of Calluya, Andreus' city of birth, and a raft of other business interests across Intaki. Andreus despises his parents because he feels that they were cold, distant and cared only about having a son that would be the next family patriarch. They showed him little love or attention when he was growing up, and bustled him off to a fast-track program in the Centre for Advanced Studies when he was only twelve years old. He hasn't been to Calluya for more than six hours at once since - to everyone else, he pretends like it's the absolute best city in the universe, but secretely he despises it because it reminds him of his parents. When he decided he wanted to be a capsuleer, his family cut off his scholarship, wrote him out of the will and disowned him - he got a sponsorship from the Federation to continue his education instead.
If you've ever wondered why Andreus is unwilling to talk about his past or his family, this is why.
Ever since, he's been sinking a little bit of ISK here and there (remember, even a few thousand ISK goes a very long way on planets) in his own little private war against his own family. He's slowly buying up controlling interests in various planetary corporations throughout Calluya, and with the new treaty allowing capsuleers to establish their own planetary facilities, what he can't buy up, he's been directly outperforming with his own subsidiaries. His long-term goal is to put his father out of business and force the old man to acknowledge the life he's made for himself.
Any time Andreus gets money for OOC reasons, I just put it down to "some of his investments returned significant profits" or "he's been plundering one of his new acquisitions".
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The problem with locator agents is that this is not a situation where it is "power outside mechanics" as you put it Nikita. This is a system and that is detailed within the confines and mechanics of the game.
Its all well and good when storytelling using your own actors to describe and do things outside the mechanics. I think Merdaneth's posts address more this issue. There are no mechanics to eat, drink and/or conquer planets, so do as you wish within your own stories, or what is accepted by the people you are involving in your stories.
A problem arises when you start involving other character, intentionally or unintentionally, in your storytelling. This shifts it into RP.
A problem with RP is that it is not consensual and needs rules to guide the improv actors (players) towards an outcome that has not been determined (predetermined outcomes can often sit more on the side of combined storytelling rather than RP).
If your alt does not have access to locator agents, if is in your own story, describe how she hacks everything you want. If your alt is interacting with my character, you cant. Now the mechanics for locating my character exist in game. Your alt is essentially using mechanics that are unavailable to it, and then spinning a story around it to make the transfer of information seem legitimate. Your alt (X) would not have access to that info at all per the game mechanics, you use another character (Y) to get the info and then spin a story as to how the info went from X to Y.
Its no different from me telling "character Y" in character where I am, and then you saying "HA! My "character X" just hacked that info and knows where you are!"
EDIT TO ADD:
I think that's a fantastic/creative way to RP the 'agent locator' game mechanic. Makes sense and I don't think harms anyone.
I seem to agree with the above. It is a nice way to possibly explain your use of the mechanics, and I would accept it if you explain that when you say "I hacked the database" you simply mean using the locator agent mechanics, or any other mechanics.
But I would be pissed off if you say that it means you located my character though means unavailable to the character and then used that info IC.
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This whole thread reminds me of Bloodbird and her amarrian colony in republic space. As long as it remains coherent, logical, structured, and with an OOC "gentlemen-agreement" behind, I do not se why I should screw with that.
First rule in roleplay : scenario before anything else, or no need to roleplay anymore, just play the game lile the average player.
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Well, I still don't like it.
I believe it diminishes the IC value of characters doing those actions themselves. And diminishing the value of characters doing anything. Moneymaking alts, locator alts, scout alts, R&D alts, industry alts. Alts, everywhere.
It reduces the amount of reasons to interact with other people.
It just feels wrong. Like using an OOC scout. And then saying there's no IC connection. Even though the information gathered OOC is acted upon IC.
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Power outside mechanics is heavily dependent on how often and how egregiously it is used.
Example, dependent on rate of usage: I once played Esna as calling on some contacts from an area he used to live in to pull some strings to get his name entered as part of something involving someone else's storyline.
Was it power outside of the storyline? Yes. Were any big cries raised about it? No. Why? Because it was used exactly once, on a small aspect of another storyline, and then largely laid to rest. If I'd started yanking it up repeatedly to arrange anything for Esna, then yeah - I'd fully expect someone to call me on i.
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My attitude is that if its used infrequently and tastefully, its not a big deal, I've used it in the example I mentioned entirely for flavour. Because I thought it would be amusing, and totally fitting the character to have her know where someone was when she tried to contact them, just to let them know she was interested.
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Game mechanics:
In the chronicles, there is one called "Prey Miner", about a pilot who attacks mining ships.
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=feb01-03
In the old version, there were several references to tracking devices, you can read it on here:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/pdf/eve_v1.4_white.pdf
The current version, was edited as part of the fiction changes as stated here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1069891&page=1#3
Changed Chronicle “Prey Miner” to remove reference to nonexistent tracking device.
Now then, where don't tracking devices exist?
Answer: they don't exist ingame.
So, CCP changed a chronicle, because it had a pilot doing things that were not possible ingame.
So what does that tell you?
tracking devices are plausible in the EVE setting, however they do not exist ingame, (although a handful of tracking devices exist in some missions, they are operated solely by your agent, not you the pilot).
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The PF said tracking devices exist, then I use them ICly (with all the usual limits about coherence, the very foundation of the RP). If they change it and remove it from PF (for whatever reason, this change seems weird), then I stop to use them. Or not, depending on a lot of factors, but I will rather use something else if the story needs it.
Not really my problem if some players abuse of it. We are not anymore in the context of the OP, but in the context of coherence and credibility of roleplay.
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my point was, that CCP's editing of that and other chronicles is a clear message that pilots can pretty much only do what the game mechanics allow you to do.
So, when people talk about boarding actions, tracking devices, infiltrating things, hacking, spies, whatever, then they are skating on thin ice.
Anyone can call them on it and say "No, that's not possible" or "No, that didn't happen", and they'd be right.
Then there'd be an argument, and either people back down to what is possible ingame, or they stick to their position and are branded delusional.
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Changed Chronicle “Prey Miner” to remove reference to nonexistent tracking device.
Now then, where don't tracking devices exist?
Answer: they don't exist ingame.
So, CCP changed a chronicle, because it had a pilot doing things that were not possible ingame.
So what does that tell you?
tracking devices are plausible in the EVE setting, however they do not exist ingame, (although a handful of tracking devices exist in some missions, they are operated solely by your agent, not you the pilot).
I think it's a bit of a non sequitur to extrapolate from there and say "we can never ever use tracking devices". In my opinion, we could instead say "please don't godmode", but if Louella(c) had some reason to track down Iurnan and determined that she'd like to plant a tracking device on his computer when he docks in an Amarr station, I might be inclined to go along with it since I trust Louella(p) -- whereas not so much with random d00d in Rens local. He needs to buck up and either follow me in-space or use locator agents.
TL;DR: the removal of those things tells us that the mechanic doesn't exist. But we each have as much "power outside mechanics" as other players perceive us to have -- and that's going to vary between any two sets of players.
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my point was, that CCP's editing of that and other chronicles is a clear message that pilots can pretty much only do what the game mechanics allow you to do.
So, when people talk about boarding actions, tracking devices, infiltrating things, hacking, spies, whatever, then they are skating on thin ice.
Anyone can call them on it and say "No, that's not possible" or "No, that didn't happen", and they'd be right.
Then there'd be an argument, and either people back down to what is possible ingame, or they stick to their position and are branded delusional.
which brings us to Ken's topic (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2125.0)
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Not really, no.
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Louella, what are you saying? Two or three words don't say much, and one can certainly see a plausible connection between this discussion and the larger question Ken raises.
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Since the chronicles are meant to spotlight aspects of the game or community, i suspect that their removal of the tracking device from this chronicle was due to them spotlighting PvP activities, and in an attempt to make the things that the pilot did while in his ship more plausible.
remember though, that every mission you take, you have supposedly travelled to the agent's office to sign the mission contract. cargo drones don't exist in game, nor do camera drones, but each ship contains some.
Also, during the incursion live events planetary conflicts were performed.
Personally, i believe there is no real problem with using a locator agent on an alt, or having someone else run them for you. 'friend of a friend' and all that.
since it is still in PF that tracking devices exist, even if only the agent uses it, i have no issue with their use, if they are not abused. With the agent example, it is reasonable to assume that the device sends the data back to the agent, instead of the capsuleer who turned up to run the mission, as the agent did not know which capsuleer would be arriving to run the mission.
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This whole thread reminds me of Bloodbird and her amarrian colony in republic space. As long as it remains coherent, logical, structured, and with an OOC "gentlemen-agreement" behind, I do not se why I should screw with that.
First rule in roleplay : scenario before anything else, or no need to roleplay anymore, just play the game lile the average player.
For the record, I'm male. So is my oldest toon, though Jesmine is not.
Nit-picking aside, for this tread I'll share a bit of knowledge. I seriously don't think I'll ever get to the point where this is used IC or in any story of mine, anyhow.
Back when I were still writing out the basis for the story that my main toon was involved in, I involved several other players, among them Veron Daerth and Stitcher. The idea was originally to make an in-universe story to explain why my toon was gone for several months leading up to this point. Ofc, I could just have stated he was on a break, much like I was, but it was an excuse to write a story, and I took it.
Long story short, Veron and Stitcher both made wonderful pieces of the story, actually a chapter each, to describe their help towards my toon in this situation. I would write the rest and it would tie their contributions in with the overall plot.
All of this is gone and lost a long time ago now ofc, but at the time there were two things that defined my work from the viewpoint of our collaboration as players; the story would be believable from an IC, PF viewpoint and it would take part nearly entirely outside the confines of the game. Lots of actions on planets and other non-space locations. A few acts took place in space, mostly with myself, simply being at places I was supposed to be in relation to the story. There were none around who saw me in these places, but the idea was that, if they were and read my story later, they might recall seeing me there and go 'aah, so that's what he was doing there.' In-game action to back purely fictional action. Was not much else I could do, In-game.
Now, this story would also demand from the reader to accept that Capsuleers came from some other place originally, they were not born into their capsules in some beginner-station somewhere with a less-than-a-day record in their beginner school, and no places of origin or any parents etc.
Nearly everyone who call themselves role-players are forced to agree that all our toons have 'lives' and back stories besides our purely in-game activities. I for one will refuse to call anyone a 'role-player' who refuse to acknowledge that my toon was born and raised, SOMEWHERE by SOMEONE. And when I tell anyone IC about who they are/where where they lived etc, there is a very high chance they will believe me.
Granting that another toon was born by someone and came from somewhere, is not to hard to swallow or agree to. Few of us however, will give much if any credit to anyone claiming to be the Empress' genetic twin. This ties in with credibility of one's RP and stories; what is believable and plausible, and what is not.
I took great pains to ensure that my story, while somewhat 'hero tale' type, would be believable to any, if not all, readers. It even included a hopefully-credible solution to how one escapes CONCORD supervision to do things they would never allow an egger to do normally. My toon's 'suicide by ship self-destruct' was another 'IG' action based on this story-arc.
Right now, I am in fact selfish enough to wish I still had that work and could post a link here, I think it would have covered the issue at hand, quite well, though quite a lot of reading. Basically, I see no reason what-so-ever that Capsuleers and their closest friends/associates etc. can't have some degree of 'special' to them or some amount of power.
If Andreus ever told my toon IC his back-ground story, I would see no reason to doubt his words. Sure, it might actually come a day when CCP release a huge, thick, bible-like book about who, what, when, how, where etc. in New Eden, and it might even state perfectly that all of Intaki is ruled by purple brain-slugs, thus spectacularly destroying his explanation and claims about his family's dealings there.
Ofc, we all likely know this will never happen. And I'm not one for denying myself or anyone else creative freedom in a game THEY PAY A MONTHLY FEE to enjoy, the right to make up fluff as they go, just because CCP 'might' one day do something that will invalidate that. But of course, it's not really to much to ask that it's kept believable enough not to rub everyone else the wrong way.
Basically, if it's fluff that adds flavor to your toon without rubbing other toons in ways that is not, in lack of other words, polite, then I see little problem. If your quest to add fluff to your toon or explain actions or some such taken by your toons, screws another toon over or seriously breaks immersion, that's another factor. Sadly, these vary greatly.
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since it is still in PF that tracking devices exist, even if only the agent uses it, i have no issue with their use, if they are not abused. With the agent example, it is reasonable to assume that the device sends the data back to the agent, instead of the capsuleer who turned up to run the mission, as the agent did not know which capsuleer would be arriving to run the mission.
How does a locator agent preemptively have a tracking device on your target? Or did I miss something in that paragraph.
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Louella, what are you saying? Two or three words don't say much, and one can certainly see a plausible connection between this discussion and the larger question Ken raises.
Ken's thread is about how players visualise things.
This is about OOC agreement as to characters having power to do things.
CCP have said that what you see in game is what pilots can do.
If you want to do more than that, then everyone concerned has to agree to it. Otherwise, it goes nowhere.
Also, the tracking devices that exist that agents use to help players do missions, only work on npc ships.
"One of our people installed a device on the enemy ship" or whatever.
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FWIW, The Burning Life notes that pilots rarely go see agents in person, but the IG text disagrees. From my PoV, players can handle this either way and I won't raise a fuss.
And Louella, I'd love to see a post or something where CCP mentions that in detail because then I can pester that dev. Do you remember who said that what you see in game is what pilots can do?
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CCP have said that what you see in game is what pilots can do.
If you want to do more than that, then everyone concerned has to agree to it. Otherwise, it goes nowhere.
Oh yes, definitly, especially when the thing is sensible enough to raise questions or when it touches another/other character(s) RP.
But I am definitly not going to ask the permission to every roleplayer for my character to go see my mother, or to validate if her father was a holder or a commoner. I will, though, if the mother or the father in question is another player, for example.
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FWIW, The Burning Life notes that pilots rarely go see agents in person, but the IG text disagrees. From my PoV, players can handle this either way and I won't raise a fuss.
Agreed. I've tended to follow the personal rule of 'the better the relationship with an agent and/or the higher the agent level, the more likely there'll be an in person meeting'.
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/me reads the OP again.
Comment related to the OP.
It is stated that the toon is an RP toon, and has no skill point training, but the toon is a RP hacker ... a hacker with no skill points in hacking? Is it not like making a new toon and saying it it a titan pilot who is admired in New Eden for his exploits?
There are mechanics regulating all of this, piloting, hacking AND locating people. Personally I feel if something is specifically regulated by the mechanics, thats the way it should be done.
You cant RP that ypur POS took months to deploy, when the mechanics say it wasnt?
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/me reads the OP again.
Comment related to the OP.
It is stated that the toon is an RP toon, and has no skill point training, but the toon is a RP hacker ... a hacker with no skill points in hacking? Is it not like making a new toon and saying it it a titan pilot who is admired in New Eden for his exploits?
There are mechanics regulating all of this, piloting, hacking AND locating people. Personally I feel if something is specifically regulated by the mechanics, thats the way it should be done.
You cant RP that ypur POS took months to deploy, when the mechanics say it wasnt?
But what's the point of this? What's the point of training up a chraracter in hacking I never intend to hack with in the game mechanic sense? It doesn't add anything to the RP, it just makes it less fun and more tedious for the player.
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I think it's "put up and shut up" mentality. I'm not sure if "because it's not fun and it's tedious" is an excuse for this. If you want to claim you've got an advanced planetary network, then you should really have one. It's different from the esoteric elements on EVE RP, because "Hacking" is an actual in-game skill.
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I think it's "put up and shut up" mentality. I'm not sure if "because it's not fun and it's tedious" is an excuse for this. If you want to claim you've got an advanced planetary network, then you should really have one. It's different from the esoteric elements on EVE RP, because "Hacking" is an actual in-game skill.
races are an ingame mechanic as well, does that mean we can't claim to play mixed race characters or characters of bloodlines that don't appear in the actual game?
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I think it's "put up and shut up" mentality. I'm not sure if "because it's not fun and it's tedious" is an excuse for this. If you want to claim you've got an advanced planetary network, then you should really have one. It's different from the esoteric elements on EVE RP, because "Hacking" is an actual in-game skill.
races are an ingame mechanic as well, does that mean we can't claim to play mixed race characters or characters of bloodlines that don't appear in the actual game?
They cant breed, based on genetics. :P
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Speaking for no one but myself, I do train up specialized alts when needed.
Actually, what I do now is engage other player characters (hire a hacker). Because just creating a throwaway alt doesn't do anything for my RP, either.
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They cant breed, based on genetics. :P
Somebody needs to have a chat with some PF authors, then. :D
Off the top of my head, I remember that mixed race people are at least mentioned in The Better Part of Valor (http://"http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=14-07-08"), and I think there might be others. Then there's the example of the Sarpati family. Salvador was adopted by a Gallente father -- but his sister Santimona is Ni-Kunni (and there's no mention as to if she was also adopted).
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I'm pretty sure Invelious was joking, but just in case: 20,000 years of genetic drift is nowhere near enough to lead to speciation.
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"i'm a mighty space pilot" - when the character can only pilot t1 frigates.
"I'm a skilled hacker" - when the character cannot even use a t1 codebreaker.
I don't see how a particularly large difference between those two scenarios.
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it deals with the willing suspension of disbelief.
I'm willing to RP with characters who are rogue drones despite the lack of mechanics for it and the fact a large portion of people are just saying they're delusional. Or characters that aren't capsuleers. Yes, I'm aware of the fact that according to game mechanics these characters are technically capsuleers, but can't that be set aside for the sake of telling a good story? For the sake of fun?
Yes, I could train up this alt with a skill it will never actually use for the sake of realism no one will benefit from. But what's the point? Why should I force myself to do that when it serves no functional purpose?
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Personally, i believe there is no real problem with using a locator agent on an alt, or having someone else run them for you. 'friend of a friend' and all that.
This. It's one thing for an alt to go do the locator-agenting for the main (or another alt) if you're too lazy to go there yourself and do it, because you can always fudge any IC interactions behind the scenes later if it comes up. For example, Morwen and Naoko have access to similar locator agents. Morwen can't fly in highsec, but Naoko can access those locators for her. So, either Morwen asks Naoko to do a check for her, or I can theoretically fudge something with Morwen going in person given her habit of running around on foot. As I generally don't use locators, I haven't really had to worry about this sort of thing on a personal level yet.
The issue that brought this up, Nikita, was that you wanted something done IC, but out of a combination of alt-lacking-skills, laziness and/or time constraints, you went around asking people OOC - specifically asking people who would, bluntly, not want to perform this service for a Cartel loyalist.
If you wanted it done IC, you should have contacted people IC, or at least talked OOC with people who have characters who would have been open to prodding one of their locator agents for Nikita.
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For me, avoiding this discussion over whether one should or shouldn't train Hacking would be a perfectly sufficient reason to train Hacking.
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Nikita, given that perspective, how does using an unskilled alt of your own add to the RP?
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Nikita, given that perspective, how does using an unskilled alt of your own add to the RP?
Well, Its not a sock puppet, the alt in question isn't adding at all to Nikita's RP, she's completely on her own, and just for fun...by that same token, she's on Nikita's account, which means I can't skill her up without halting skilling Nikita, and since I have no intent to use this character for anything other then RP, I don't see the need to skill her.
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Well, Its not a sock puppet, the alt in question isn't adding at all to Nikita's RP, she's completely on her own, and just for fun...by that same token, she's on Nikita's account, which means I can't skill her up without halting skilling Nikita, and since I have no intent to use this character for anything other then RP, I don't see the need to skill her.
Example: I have an alt character who I use for occasional scouting
Scouting is adding to someone else's RP.
What alt is it anyway? Arci Arratece who you use to back up your points on various threads on the official forums?
But what's the point? Why should I force myself to do that when it serves no functional purpose?
What is the point of training for t2 frigates when it's "more fun" to just RP things about being a frigate pilot?
Simple answer, is that you are interacting with other characters, not just your own. The game universe does not revolve around any single player.
You are doing other players a huge disservice.
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They started and then cancelled that exact projection, Invelious. :(
:bash: someone call whitewolf. I love the D10 dot system.
They did that too and cancelled it too.
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There's nothing wrong with someone RPing whatever they want.
There is also nothing wrong with other people choosing not to interact with that person, or specific characters of that person, because they don't find the RP appealing or it doesn't fit with how they play the game (Pew Pew interaction aside. I'm talking about the more consensual type, here.)
That being said, I've found that my own personal judgement on what I find interesting and fun tens toward at least minimal IG symbolic effort to make the character believable. However if the RP is interesting enough, it may make up for a multitude of hand-waving sins.
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I'm going to bring up something that a lot of people seem to be up in arms about. That is the idea of character's having power beyond what they can project using game mechanics.
Personally, I feel this issue actually has two questions bundled up in one.
First, there is writing your character non-game-engine power over your own NPCs. In my opinion, this is generally not particularly problematic as it is something that other players can ignore if it is something they do not enjoy or does not fit into their view of the gameworld. It is a big cluster and there is room for everybody if you play nice. :)
The second case is writing your character power over the gameworld and/or other players' NPCs and characters. Which in my opinion needs OOC consideration and courtesy to work well. It can work and lead to fun RP. But it can also lead to trouble with character or world consistency, feelings of godmoding or other OOC friction.
I would personally be quite careful about the second kind when I do not know the other players. In most RP subcommunities there seems to be an accepted level of character power that is considered "appropriate", and going beyond that without previous OOC negotiation and agreeing on said power use with other players is felt to be bad form. Sometimes that line can be in unexpected places.