Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 26 Apr 2011, 11:48
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http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1499793
So, on the outset I don't have any particular issues with this player, and it probably would be interesting if he had a military backing and had the resources to go after a few loyalist corps, etc.
I guess I'm just wrestling a bit with a capsuleer making those sorts of 'disloyal' statements and of course facing no in-game consequences as a limitation of game mechanics,etc.
Of course there are no RP Police to troll the forums and set faction standings due to these sorts of statements.
If we think about it a bit though, someone saying these sorts 'disloyal' statements might be just fine in a liberal democracy like the Federation (Freedom of the press, etc), but I have to imagine based on what we know of the Empire that running around saying 'down with the Empress' in public would get you shot, immediately, anywhere in the Empire. You'd probably be able to dock at a station, just once, and then your ship would be confiscated and you'd probably be escorted for a quick trial and execution.
I've kind of ignored this thread on IGS since it breaks my immersion a bit.
Are any of you aware of any PF that perhaps says all four empires signed a clause or something with CONCORD that grants capsuleers immunity from local prosecution from these sorts of things? IE the Empire/state, etc have to suck it up in order to be affiliated with CONCORD and as a result capsuleer's are immune from the typical sedition/libel laws?
Thoughts?
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I think that the Empire's deal with CONCORD prevents them from shooting people just for saying things they don't like (hence Minmatar loyalists able to enter Amarr space, dock, etc.).
And at least one Amarrian loyalist organization has declared war on them, so there are some player consequences as well.
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I think that the Empire's deal with CONCORD prevents them from shooting people just for saying things they don't like (hence Minmatar loyalists able to enter Amarr space, dock, etc.).
And at least one Amarrian loyalist organization has declared war on them, so there are some player consequences as well.
I got to say, I rather wish this weren't the case, as currently there are no consequences for standings besides RP, and if you nuke your empire standings enough, being banned from their highsec. There are no rewards for your loyalty, there are no punishments for your betrayal or hatred.
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Capsuleers are too insignificant to actually be worthy of any kind of response from the empires for their words.
All that they say can be easily censored and most of the populations of the empires do not have access to Neocomm so they really do not have to care about what is happening in the other empires either.
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Capsuleers are too insignificant to actually be worthy of any kind of response from the empires for their words.
All that they say can be easily censored and most of the populations of the empires do not have access to Neocomm so they really do not have to care about what is happening in the other empires either.
I disagree. Even in today's single planet that we live on, in most of the world, even someone with no resources can't run around calling for death to their own government without being detained, arrested, or worse.
Someone with infinitely more resources and influence would be under an extremely short leash while in certain jurisdictions, imho.
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Capsuleers are too insignificant to actually be worthy of any kind of response from the empires for their words.
I think that statement in spirit is pretty much contrary to everything our PF and CCP has been saying. That there is a disconnect between space and planets can certainly be said (and is supported by the PF), but that's it. The disconnect might be big enough to warrant your viewpoint on the subject of capsuleers spouting words on the forums though, but I do think that CONCORD guarantees of capsuleer freedom also play a role.
Interestingly, and I don't mean this in a mean or argumentative way, the view of the supposed insignificance of capsuleers in general is usually pushed by groups more firmly entrenched in factional loyalties. That the contrary view along with its runway post-human implications has been espoused by Star Fraction - whose players at one point at least were quite firmly set against nationalist ideologies - has probably made the battle between the two viewpoints more pointed and less constructive as well.
I'm just saying that the evidence seems to be pretty heavily in favor of the "capsuleers as demi-gods". More constructively, I'm not saying that the discussion about what exactly are the limits of capsuleer power isn't interesting though, but I do think that saying "there are no UI options for planetary bombardment, hence capsuleers are unable to do so within the game world" is taking things way too far though and twisting the facts to fit the agenda.
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This
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I think the players heavily involved in faction stuff might find themselves trying to understand the somewhat demoralising situation where nothing they do or say has any influence on their faction. Not the good ideas, or the tactical suggestions or the calls for help.
The obvious reaction to explain this without breaking SOD is that capsuleers as a class aren't that important, otherwise my character would be being listened to by someone, anyone.
The same mechanism would seem to me to explain the tendency for the anti-nationalists to be more likely to expouse the belief that capsuleers can have a great influence on things, otherwise their entire struggle is pointless.
All fairly understandable really, if you think about it.
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Capsuleers are too insignificant to actually be worthy of any kind of response from the empires for their words.
All that they say can be easily censored and most of the populations of the empires do not have access to Neocomm so they really do not have to care about what is happening in the other empires either.
There is a "Did you know..." entry on this site saying that the IGS for example is widely read across the cluster and every capsuleer message is subject to great debates in the mortal world.
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Capsuleer idolatry on the rise: http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=652&tid=4 (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=652&tid=4)
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Capsuleers are too insignificant to actually be worthy of any kind of response from the empires for their words.
All that they say can be easily censored and most of the populations of the empires do not have access to Neocomm so they really do not have to care about what is happening in the other empires either.
Capsuleer idolatry on the rise: http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=652&tid=4 (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=652&tid=4)
Interestingly, a (then) member of Rodj and Lallara's own corp is cited as one of the primary examples of this.
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I think we're missing the one massive corrective mechanic, in and out of game, that this player now faces - he's alienated himself from almost all of the Amarr factional community, and most likely much of the other factional communities (after all, he's not advocating for the end of slavery or anything, so odds are he's not going to get much Minmatar support).
So, yeah. There are no hard-coded mechanics to deal with him, but there is the fact that he's attracted a lot of hostile attention from anyone he might be interested in interacting with.
That said, I suspect that if an IC/in-game explenation was to be presented, it would be that the Empires are bound by very strict CONCORD treaties which prevent them from acting on anything but explicitely hostile, in-space actions from capsuleers. Probably somebody in CONCORD forsaw that there would be legions of psychotic demi-gods flying around within a few years of the start of the capsuleer age, and pointed out that to ban them all from various empires' space for anything less than explicit hostility could drive away the legions of (extremely valuable) capsuleers.
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CCP has indicated at certain points that ultimately the only power capsuleers are legally answerable to is-- no, not CONCORD; that just gets to blow you up if you're naughty in certain particular ways in certain particular places-- their corporations.
Not their factions. Not their native governments. Not, again, CONCORD. Not even their alliances. Just their corporations.
The hard part about this is figuring out how such an insane policy would ever have become interstellar law. It may be a matter of there being two practical approaches to dealing with capsuleers: strict control or loose control.
If the factions went for strict control you'd have an arms race over who can train the most of them and who can most swiftly genetically engineer the largest percentage of their population to withstand the pressures of training-- among other uncomfortable problems. No nation, for example, could afford to discharge its capsuleer agents without also somehow irreversibly disabling them, lest they be snapped up by another empire, the Cartel, or various other powers with intelligence divsions. And "disabling," in this case, would probably mean shooting them in the head.
The nations would also be directly culpable for various capsuleer excesses, etc. Furthermore, this comes within spitting distance of slavery, a big no-no for the Federals and Minnies.
Loose control has the merit of preventing an arms race and really wants an arms race over capsuleers. All of them want to have capsuleer minions at their disposal, and can get them using the carrot instead of the stick. The capsuleers aren't under anyone's thumb, so no one's thumb gets smeared in the blood of capsuleer atrocities.
Instead of each faction building a destabilizing stockpile of sentient, crazed weapons of mass destruction, every empire (and other faction) has access to a community of what boils down to blood-saturated mercenaries. Capsuleers bathe in sewage and bodily fluids for a few ISK, while the empires come out smelling like roses. The farther the factions can distance themselves from these deniable assets, the better, and how do nations distance themselves farther than to declare capsuleers to be functionally without nation?
The capsuleers become, in effect, the tyrants of a million or so independent, mercenary city-states (consider the number of crew + support personnel involved), legally beholden only to voluntarily-established nations of cooperative cities-- which they can secede from almost at will.
No empire has authority; every case in which a capsuleer is subjected to empire justice is one where the capsuleer voluntarily submits him or herself, or is forced to by a corporation. Naturally, the nations can take certain covert actions to eliminate particularly troublesome capsuleers, but that is a dangerous game indeed, since any slip-up that compromised the operation would expose that empire, perhaps all the empires, as responsible for killing (or otherwise meddling with the sovereign rights of) capsuleers, with unpredictable consequences.
Any middle road would eventually lead to either the tightest or loosest level of control, with a much more resentful capsuleer population with an adversarial relationship to the factions. Hence the present approach.
Best explanation I can come up with.
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I digress. If a capsuleer wanders out of his designated zones on station, and goes on a killing spree in the station's mall/market/bazaar, then he's going to be held accountable. Of course, there are countless capsuleers employed by the navies and who are integrated with the common people. 3 of the 4 heads of states are capsuleers.
Of course, you're talking about the capsuleer class.
But who's telling me I can't RP a citizen-capsuleer? More importantly, what is? Where's the line?
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In-game reality is that you cannot interact with NPCs beyond the (very limited) means available through the game interface (mostly talking with your mission agents) and that almost nothing happens in the NPC world that is visible to the player
In-game reality is that most of the RPers favor playing and focusing on a world dominated by NPC rulers, NPC culture, NPC traditions and NPC based lore. Most RPers seek to align themselves with an NPC faction rather than with a capsuleer faction.
Obviously, this is going to cause massive problems as a defining factor of RP is interactibility. By basing our RP largely on the NPC world we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
If our heroes and rulers would be other capsuleers, and if our cultural traditions were formed by capsuleer concepts then we would have a much easier time RP-ing. Only we don't want to RP log off traps, alts, timers, corp and alliance mechanics and many other fairly uninspiring game mechanical implementations.
As long as we are talking about our ships IC, it nearly always works out fine, but as soon as we start debating stuff that belongs to the realm of the NPCs, it tends to go bad. However, we want to imagine the NPC world, we are inspired by the EVE PF, by the varied NPC traditions and cultures. That is our problem.
We talk about slavery and slaves, while we really should be talking about the morbid obsession of capsuleers with the bodily remains of other capsuleers. That is capsuleer culture, not this non-interactible slavery thing...
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I digress. If a capsuleer wanders out of his designated zones on station, and goes on a killing spree in the station's mall/market/bazaar, then he's going to be held accountable. Of course, there are countless capsuleers employed by the navies and who are integrated with the common people. 3 of the 4 heads of states are capsuleers.
Of course, you're talking about the capsuleer class.
But who's telling me I can't RP a citizen-capsuleer? More importantly, what is? Where's the line?
The line is simple. You become a capsuleer, and forget the daily crap involved with regular society. We have our own to worry about. You can be a loyalist and not care about the daily workings of every day life of that faction. Worry more about keeping the enemy faction pod pilots at bay. Keeps it simple and we still have plenty of RP angles to work with.
There is no such thing as a citizen-capsuleer. Once you become a capsuleer, you cease being a citizen.
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Roobish.
Capsuleer Jacus Roden was elected President of the Gallente Federation.
Capsuleer Jamyl Sarum was appointed Empress of the Amarr Empire.
Capsuleer Malaetu Shakor was elected Prime Minister of the Minmatar Republic.
The Grand Admiral of the Federation Navy is a capsuleer.
If you read what I said, there are countless capsuleers employed directly by the navies, and holding rank. What about the GM Navy actors? They have a showinfo character box EXACTLY the same as ours, and they are capsuleers.
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Once you become a capsuleer, you cease being a citizen.
Couldn't disagree more. You might as well say that once you become a capsuleer, you cease being human. Just go on coveting absurd amounts of wealth and power, raeg against your fellow capsuleers, and build a little empire for yourself in nullsec... playing a great game of influence in a vacuum.
Certainly that's one way to look at it and a perfectly fine angle to roleplay if you like, but it rather bleakly disconnects both player and character from the richness of the EVE background lore and story. It says to the player, "Here is a vast and interesting universe full of competing groups and compelling stories. And you are not part of it. Now go play somewhere else." I think that attitude renders in-character thoughts and actions frighteningly arbitrary.
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"Here is a vast and interesting universe full of competing groups and compelling stories. And you are not part of it. Now go play somewhere else." I think that attitude renders in-character thoughts and actions frighteningly arbitrary.
But, it is the in-game reality for us. I could insult Jamyl on public fora on a daily basis, and I wouldn't get any reaction from the NPC world. The only response I would get would be from other capsuleers.
I agree, the in-game reality isn't very fun, but it is the in-game reality: capsuleers live in a world apart from the NPCs.
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I agree, the in-game reality isn't very fun, but it is the in-game reality: capsuleers live in a world apart from the NPCs.
I've just said (twice) that there are NPC capsuleers.
Being adamant about this "in-game reality" is an arbitrary and IMO unreasonable solution to people not being able to communicate and consent their RP together.
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capsuleers live in a world apart from the NPCs.
I contend that they absolutely do not (and there is a substantial body of PF material to support that claim), but that the means available to us (players) of interacting with that world (CCP's sometimes schizophrenic support of roleplay in their video game) are limited because of handicaps imposed by the real world (the time and expense of supporting a large roleplay community for a large MMO as completely as a GM could support a pen-and-paper RPG group).
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[mod]I'd like to remind everyone to review the FAQ (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?action=page;id=4). For example: "Sure you can disagree. Just do it politely, I'll even venture to say nicely, and remember that they have as much right to their opinion as you have to yours."[/mod]
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I agree, the in-game reality isn't very fun, but it is the in-game reality: capsuleers live in a world apart from the NPCs.
I've just said (twice) that there are NPC capsuleers.
Being adamant about this "in-game reality" is an arbitrary and IMO unreasonable solution to people not being able to communicate and consent their RP together.
When was the last time you spoke to one of those capsuleers you are mentioning? There are only 4 types NPCs we can interact with because that is all that is allowed by the factions, and those are:
Mission Agents/locator agents
Concord(killing us)
NPC Faction Police(Us killing them or vice versa)
Mission NPCs(Us killing them, for the most part)
We only speak to one of those 4, agents. That is the extent of our interaction.
There is a reason why in PF capsuleers are designated a "special area in the station" its because we dont interact with the pions down below. Sure the RL limitations are a main reason why we cant interact in game, but it seems CCP sets the setting for ingame reasons for us not to interact with the npc environment.
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I still believe that is unreasonable and arbitrary. My character's mother is a Federation Navy capsuleer, with no in-game mechanical record. Are you saying I cannot have my character interact with his own mother?
Going with the adamant in-game mechanic route, it also means our characters can never leave the pod (at least, not until Incarna. There are rules to interaction, yes, but going the WYSIWYG is too "ur doin it wrong".
The reason in PF we are confined to capsuleer areas of the station is to compensate immersion of the general player (ie. non-RPer) within the game's mechanics. We can break free of this if we want.
Read Jita 4-4? There's a capsuleer wandering around the public area of the Jita trade hub.
With "Her Painted Selves", a loyalist Gallentean capsuleer is overseeing the treatment of a soldier who was heavily injured in the Caldari Prime invention, and is liasoning with Federal authorities to do so.
With "All These Lives are Fit to Ruin", a capsuleer is at a medical ward interacting with one of his crewmembers.
We have our imaginations, and we should be able to use them.
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The reason in PF we are confined to capsuleer areas of the station is to compensate immersion of the general player (ie. non-RPer) within the game's mechanics. We can break free of this if we want.
Sounds like Gameplay And Story Segregation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation).
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To me, the Demigod line put out by the CCP is just a selling gimmick.
Just like all the millions of players of WoW are unique super powerful heroes of Azeroth.
Even they are slaves to the whim of Bob the Blacksmith that makes chainmails and wants some kobolds dead.
First of all Seri, there is no such ancestry as capsuleers, I'm not saying you're 'doinitrong' but it would insinuate that the capsuleer gene flaw is not hereditary.
Also what you fail to grasp is that players are in control of capsuleers that are not affiliated with any of the Empires. We are not working directly to them through any other means than by working with agents
and taking part in a rare live event that happens once in a lifetime.
Player capsuleers are a breed of their own.
'Free agents', that have very limited ways of interacting with the societies of New Eden.
Because those free agents are loose cannons, no society in their right mind would let loose something that would have the potential to overcome and destroy them.
Even harm them.
Equating yourself with a canon character is the biggest faus pas that you can commit in any setting.
Please don't do it repeatedly in EVE.
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There's a difference between saying "I'm as powerful as Roden" or "I'm as powerful as Garrosh Hellscream" and saying "I'm a capsuleer like Roden" or "I'm a warrior like Garrosh Hellscream".
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Equating yourself with a canon character
There's a difference between saying "I'm as powerful as Roden" or "I'm as powerful as Garrosh Hellscream" and saying "I'm a capsuleer like Roden" or "I'm a warrior like Garrosh Hellscream".
My point here (and I'll venture to say that neither is it Seri's) is not that player character capsuleers are the same as NPC capsuleers in terms of power or influence, but rather that our characters have ways of accessing and participating in the world of New Eden that are not represented in the client.
"I am a capsuleer like Roden."
That means I can (and do!) have contact and interactions with the rest of the world outside of my NeoCom, spaceship, and insular little quarters and station promenade.
in PF capsuleers are designated a "special area in the station"
Seri has pointed out above several occasions in PF where those special areas are clearly demonstrated to not be prisons. So, while we may have those privileged and protected zones (and will see them often in the client with Incarna coming up) our characters are limited to them only for the purposes and as a result of the boundaries of the video game. I adamantly defend the position that we are not limited to them for the purposes of roleplaying.
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To the original poster, I think it looks good to have your corp/faction standing geared towards your loyalties. If an rp corp can achieve high standing as a policy, it looks more professional.
But it isn't necessary.
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Equating yourself with a canon character is the biggest faus pas that you can commit in any setting.
Please don't do it repeatedly in EVE.
Didn't say that. As Casiella and Ken has pointed out, I said that my character is effectively a "capsuleer like Roden".
It's mechanics versus PF...sure there's no mechanic for it, but PF points out in multiple occassions that go against mechanics.
Here (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1494778&page=2#48), CCP Delegate Zero says "use your imagination" for doing crew counts for T2 and T3 ships. There's no mechanics for crews, but they exist.
As it stands, the mechanics of the game do not allow it, sure, but PF does not say anywhere that a capsuleer cannot visit ordinary areas of station, or visit their homeplanet.
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Equating yourself with a canon character is the biggest faus pas that you can commit in any setting.
Please don't do it repeatedly in EVE.
Didn't say that. As Casiella and Ken has pointed out, I said that my character is effectively a "capsuleer like Roden".
It's mechanics versus PF...sure there's no mechanic for it, but PF points out in multiple occassions that go against mechanics.
Here (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1494778&page=2#48), CCP Delegate Zero says "use your imagination" for doing crew counts for T2 and T3 ships. There's no mechanics for crews, but they exist.
As it stands, the mechanics of the game do not allow it, sure, but PF does not say anywhere that a capsuleer cannot visit ordinary areas of station, or visit their homeplanet.
Theres a difference between coming up with crew counts and saying something like "I macked on the Empress last night, which is ok because shes a capsuleer and my imagination allows it to happen.'
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I've just said (twice) that there are NPC capsuleers.
So, where and when did they get their licenses?
Being adamant about this "in-game reality" is an arbitrary and IMO unreasonable solution to people not being able to communicate and consent their RP together.
Oh, I'm all for doing the consentual RP part, in fact if you involve NPCs in your RP I believe it needs to be consensual because there is no interactable reference frame independent of the RP actors themselves. That was sort of my point.
I'm not telling you how to play, or what is good or bad, merely pointing out that the fact that NPCs never talk back to you or interact with you in any other perceivable way, that such a thing might cause problems if you base your RP primarily on your imagined version of the NPC world.
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capsuleers live in a world apart from the NPCs.
I contend that they absolutely do not (and there is a substantial body of PF material to support that claim), but that the means available to us (players) of interacting with that world (CCP's sometimes schizophrenic support of roleplay in their video game) are limited because of handicaps imposed by the real world (the time and expense of supporting a large roleplay community for a large MMO as completely as a GM could support a pen-and-paper RPG group).
They don't live apart from capsuleers in PF, they live apart from capsuleers in the *in-game reality*.
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Theres a difference between coming up with crew counts and saying something like "I macked on the Empress last night, which is ok because shes a capsuleer and my imagination allows it to happen.'
Wow wow wow, there's also a big difference between saying my character voted in the last district election and doing the example you have just provided.
Exactly where did I say I've ever done something to that scale?
As far as CCP is concerned, capsuleers engaging with the world around them realistically is completely permissable.
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Telling someone IC that they can't do something reasonably possible simply because we all know ooc that game mechanics won't allow it is lame and happens too often.
I'm glad that some people interacted productively with this Free Holder guy, especially since the whole Jamyl is a zombie theory does have some support in the PF.
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Telling someone IC that they can't do something reasonably possible simply because we all know ooc that game mechanics won't allow it is lame and happens too often.
I'm glad that some people interacted productively with this Free Holder guy, especially since the whole Jamyl is a zombie theory does have some support in the PF.
Jamyl IS a zombie, and quite crazy (thanks, Tony G....) but unless I've misread something, there's not a single one of us, or any other capsuleer that would have the slightest information regarding ANY of that.
So when people come out in public IC with that sort of information I'm not inclined towards much interaction.
Much as when anyone so much as mentions 'the broker' crashing that Nyx into Ishukone.
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I'm glad that some people interacted productively with this Free Holder guy, especially since the whole Jamyl is a zombie theory does have some support in the PF.
Well, I think the complaint here was not that the players don't interact (productively) with a person like this, the complaint was that the NPCs don't interact with him while the PF perception is that they would.
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EDIT: Why did I post to one thread anf have it appear in another?
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Does this mean what I think it means?
Information on a pilot's standings towards NPC corporations is no longer visible from 'Show Info'. You now see the standings information between you and the other pilot and the factions you each belong to.
http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?patchlogID=226
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Ohh, corporations are going to make their standings private ?
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And factions it seems, unless you're aligned with them. So I think you can 'show info' on TLF pilot and see his Minmatar faction standing, but not much else.
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That's... that's so fail.
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Does this mean what I think it means?
Information on a pilot's standings towards NPC corporations is no longer visible from 'Show Info'. You now see the standings information between you and the other pilot and the factions you each belong to.
http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?patchlogID=226
Unless that means I can ally myself with the angels, that is so incredibly fail.
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I don't understand the issue here. So you can see that (for example) somebody has +6.0 faction standings to the Minmatar Republic, but not their +9.0 to Republic Fleet.
Have I missed something?
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I don't understand the issue here. So you can see that (for example) somebody has +6.0 faction standings to the Minmatar Republic, but not their +9.0 to Republic Fleet.
Have I missed something?
Oh, wait, is that what it means? ooooohhhh.
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That's what I think it means. Maybe if I were at home, I could log into Sisi and check...
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I don't understand the issue here. So you can see that (for example) somebody has +6.0 faction standings to the Minmatar Republic, but not their +9.0 to Republic Fleet.
Have I missed something?
Possibly you're right, but it doesn't read that way to me:
Information on a pilot's standings towards NPC corporations is no longer visible from 'Show Info'. You now see the standings information between you and the other pilot and the factions you each belong to.
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Sounds more logical to me. I would even like for people to chose if they want to keep their standings private or public (much like certificates), with the private option by default. Though it would automatically needs to remain public for the corporation directors, its mandatory for obvious reasons (I hope they thought of that ??).
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If it is the same as is on sis atm, You will only see the standings between you/your corp/your alliance and them/their corp/their alliance.
You do not see if X pilot has only standings with the starter agent and is therefore probably an alt.
You do not see that Y pilot has -10.00 with the blood raiders and claims to be one of them.
You do not see the agents that people are missioning for, requiring the use of locators to find people.
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If it is the same as is on sis atm, You will only see the standings between you/your corp/your alliance and them/their corp/their alliance.
You do not see if X pilot has only standings with the starter agent and is therefore probably an alt.
You do not see that Y pilot has -10.00 with the blood raiders and claims to be one of them.
You do not see the agents that people are missioning for, requiring the use of locators to find people.
If I understand this, all personal standings are invisible to players but corporate and alliance are visible?
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If it is the same as is on sis atm, You will only see the standings between you/your corp/your alliance and them/their corp/their alliance.
You do not see if X pilot has only standings with the starter agent and is therefore probably an alt.
You do not see that Y pilot has -10.00 with the blood raiders and claims to be one of them.
You do not see the agents that people are missioning for, requiring the use of locators to find people.
If I understand this, all personal standings are invisible to players but corporate and alliance are visible?
When you go to "standings" at the moment, there are 3 tabs. "Liked By" "Disliked By" "Relationship".
On sisi, there is only 1, which corresponds to the current "relationship"
This goes for all things.
Pilots, Corporations, Alliances.
You will only see the relationship between you and them.
FURTHERMORE NPC CORPS AND FACTIONS ARE ALSO AFFECTED
You CANNOT see that e.g. Amarr Empire is liked by the Ammatar and disliked by the Minmatar.
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If it is the same as is on sis atm, You will only see the standings between you/your corp/your alliance and them/their corp/their alliance.
You do not see if X pilot has only standings with the starter agent and is therefore probably an alt.
You do not see that Y pilot has -10.00 with the blood raiders and claims to be one of them.
You do not see the agents that people are missioning for, requiring the use of locators to find people.
Urf. This'll be annoying from the intel and counter-intel side. Point #2 more than point #4 if you don't require limited API from applicants, but #4 was always good for finding silly WTs who don't change their habits during a war.
Probably more annoying will be for corps (like ours) that have certain standings expectations, like for giving insta-JC access for newbies, highsec POS anchoring, or different RP reasons. It's either API verification or take them at their word that they meet, or are working to improve, the wanted standings instead of the simple click and peek that can be done as soon as someone says, "Hi. I'd like a job."
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Interesting move. Considering it, I find this a bit liberating.
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If it is the same as is on sis atm, You will only see the standings between you/your corp/your alliance and them/their corp/their alliance.
You do not see if X pilot has only standings with the starter agent and is therefore probably an alt.
You do not see that Y pilot has -10.00 with the blood raiders and claims to be one of them.
You do not see the agents that people are missioning for, requiring the use of locators to find people.
If I understand this, all personal standings are invisible to players but corporate and alliance are visible?
When you go to "standings" at the moment, there are 3 tabs. "Liked By" "Disliked By" "Relationship".
On sisi, there is only 1, which corresponds to the current "relationship"
This goes for all things.
Pilots, Corporations, Alliances.
You will only see the relationship between you and them.
FURTHERMORE NPC CORPS AND FACTIONS ARE ALSO AFFECTED
You CANNOT see that e.g. Amarr Empire is liked by the Ammatar and disliked by the Minmatar.
Hnn.
Over all this is a move towards the positive, I think. It will certainly kill what relevancy standings had to roleplayers, thus putting all relevancy upon their reputation.
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Unsure how I feel about it from a roleplay perspective.
From the perspective of intel-gathering, this makes things a little more difficult, but nobody said this would be easy.
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Probably more annoying will be for corps (like ours) that have certain standings expectations, like for giving insta-JC access for newbies, highsec POS anchoring, or different RP reasons. It's either API verification or take them at their word that they meet, or are working to improve, the wanted standings instead of the simple click and peek that can be done as soon as someone says, "Hi. I'd like a job."
Another possibility is giving them prospect employment for a week and then checking the corp standings with various people you care about. Assuming that you can still see the make up of corp standings, it will show you all the pilots in your corp who have standings to that NPC corp and what those standings are.
Of course, it means letting them in for a week...
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thats a bit annoying, especially since I worked hard for my angel standings >_<
although, maybe there will be a way to claim loyalty to a faction and have it display that...I doubt it though
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thats a bit annoying, especially since I worked hard for my angel standings >_<
although, maybe there will be a way to claim loyalty to a faction and have it display that...I doubt it though
Medals!
MEDALSSSS
Because CCP don't use them often enough.
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Is it the Full API you need to see standings ?
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No, you can see them with a limited API, at least currently.
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API checks and perhaps feeder corps should make this less of an issue.
Especially with the finer-grained API that's coming this summer-ish.
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thats a bit annoying, especially since I worked hard for my angel standings >_<
although, maybe there will be a way to claim loyalty to a faction and have it display that...I doubt it though
Medals!
MEDALSSSS
Because CCP don't use them often enough.
Yes Yes! Medals! And Certificates! Those are clearly the superior way to show loyalty! *muahahahahahahah*
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Another possibility is giving them prospect employment for a week and then checking the corp standings with various people you care about. Assuming that you can still see the make up of corp standings, it will show you all the pilots in your corp who have standings to that NPC corp and what those standings are.
In my view, role-players are the most important asset a role-playing corporation can have. I understand that standings are kind of easy to check and so on, but I don't see them leading to any kind of interesting RP. Aren't they more like an indication that the applicant, or the corporation, likes monotonous grinding and minmaxing?
Wouldn't it make more sense to evaluate whether the applicant is devoted, makes good initiatives, follows his internal logic, is willing to do research, can deal with differing opinions and so on? If a mission running corporation uses grinding rewards as a recruitment condition, that makes sense, but I just don't see the RP point of adhering to this flawed mechanic even after DM's have ditched it.
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In my view, role-players are the most important asset a role-playing corporation can have. I understand that standings are kind of easy to check and so on, but I don't see them leading to any kind of interesting RP. Aren't they more like an indication that the applicant, or the corporation, likes monotonous grinding and minmaxing?
Wouldn't it make more sense to evaluate whether the applicant is devoted, makes good initiatives, follows his internal logic, is willing to do research, can deal with differing opinions and so on? If a mission running corporation uses grinding rewards as a recruitment condition, that makes sense, but I just don't see the RP point of adhering to this flawed mechanic even after DM's have ditched it.
Yes and no.
Yes, RP is really important. But there are some Rpers out there who will happily kill a corp/alliance using Corp theft and betrayal, and yes, that can kill a corp or alliance; or people who can fake being an RPer for a while and then do it. Many of the indications of this include things that are also true for normal new players, and long term inactive Alts can present as other than what they are.
One point of this mechanic is to spot people who RP competently but who are lying in some way. Building a legitimate history can be hard. The more they can obscure or hide the deficiencies in their character history, the harder it is to detect them.
No, it doesn't catch everyone. It's not necessary or sufficient evidence of a potential infiltrator, but it does flag warnings for some of them.
There is a significant OOC component here because you are protecting your corp and your players OOC as well as IC. The ties that you can build up with people you play with OOC over time are valuable to me and I think to other people, and I've seen situations where this was damaged by infiltrators. I can decide if I want to do /sip RP in the Last Gate, but I don't get to decide if I want to play in a corp with infiltrators or not.
It would be nice to be able to trust all the other RPers in Eve not to screw over your corp if you let the "PC glow" gloss over inconsistencies in their stories, but you can't. Such is Eve.
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So Ulphus, are you suggesting that requiring standings reduces the chance that a roleplayer will infiltrate your corp to damage it, or choose to do so once already a member?
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So Ulphus, are you suggesting that requiring standings reduces the chance that a roleplayer will infiltrate your corp to damage it, or choose to do so once already a member?
Not at all, I'm completely avoiding that discussion.
I'm saying it's a somewhat limited tool for verifying character stories and that removing the ability to see what the standings of a character are to the various agents, corporations and factions makes it harder to spot people who are claiming things about their actual in game behaviour which are not true.
A two year old character claiming to have made a living missioning who has no significant standings with mission agents for instance, or showing knowledge of level 4 mission agents when they don't have standings towards any of them.
I have some sympathy for the argument that standings are a pretty piss-poor tool for evaluating RP loyalties, but they are, for better or worse, a record of some of what the character has actually done in Eve.
And if I catch someone lying about one thing, then I'm less likely to believe everything else.
Like I admitted, a lot of this is using the standings as an OOC tool to evaluate the veracity of claims about the character's history, but that evaluation can also be IC.
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Players might be inclined to trust eveboard (http://eveboard.com/) with their API key more than a potential corp, and that allows finer-grained control over what someone can see.
As a potential tool / workaround, it's not bad.
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I really just wish CCP included a way to Opt in and show faction/corp loyalties in the show info, so those of us with good standings to our factions can flaunt it.
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It's a seriously annoying loss of an intel tool.
Old system:
"I have a target docked at an RF Logistics station. Now, what might he be doing there? Hmm, there's two agents there, one high quality L3 and one low quality L2. Let's check standings. Ah, the standings do indeed fit someone who's working RF L3s to get to L4s. Thus I can expect a BC carebear ship to be undocking.
Woops. I DC'd and he fucked off since he saw me coming. No nearby locators and he knows this mission hub is spotted. Let's check standings again. Ah, he can run Brutor Tribe L4s. Let's check the nearby high traffic L4 system. There he is, and he'll be in a battleship. He undocks from the kickout station, gets bumped and dies."
New system:
"... I have no fucking idea where he is, and there's no nearby locators. Fuck." or "I know where he is, but for all I know he fucks about with Shuttles in this area. I couldn't tell you if he's ever done a mission in his life."
And that's just one tiny little thing out of many that we're losing here. This means those who mission for pirate factions will never have to deal with uncomfortable standings questions if they don't choose to share their API. No one gets to show off the standings they've worked hard for. In short, this change is utterly pointless and have no positive effects that I can see.
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I'll have to agree with Miz here. As a RP stance I'd sure not like working with or helping anyone that had done extensive work for, say, the angels. But if it's not set public, I will not be able to see that perfect cartel standing the guy has, or how much the Fed hates his ass. This might be resolved if I asked for api before a join, for instance, but if not I suddely have a pirate-friendly guy in corp who nukes our standings because everyone else's has +2 ore 5 or what, he has -10.
Unless I'm missing something, I really don't see the use in this besides making the life of RP'ers who care about this alot worse, among other issues, one of them mentioned by Miz as well.
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I dunno, I kinda like it. I think too much importance was placed on standings with factions, as if it weren't high enough the pilot may not be loyal enough to their cause. As some have pointed out, it's mostly a tool for tracking down people through their agents and roleplayer e-peen waving.
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Well, it sorta helps people who are just getting into RP and who's standings in no way reflect their RP stance - like the former Amarr carebear who decides he wants to RP a blooder but his standings are at -10. He's either gotta deal with the abysmally long process of fixing this in hostile nullsec, or he's gotta deal with the handful of people who care potentially pointing it out and questioning his loyalty to the blooders. Perhaps an even better comparison would be someone who decided to play a serp, since missioning for them is pretty nearly impossible if you're not part of the alliance that controls that space - it's smaller and usually harder to get to than delve, stain, or curse ( I don't know where the guristas are or what it's like there, I wouldn't expect it to be any easier).
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Victoria, you can get Serp standings in Curse rather easily. Work for the Cartel and the Serps at the same time since they have agents in the same systems, get straight Serp standings plus derived standings from the Cartel.
I have to say that I'm not sure what benefit this will provide for anyone, but I'm not going to throw CCP under a bus over the matter. It's a massive loss of intel, both for target searching and RP. We'll see what happens, maybe they'll change their minds.
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Confirmed that the change is intended partly to simplify the UI and partly as an intel nerf. Soundwave mentioned to me on Twitter that they might bring it back with gameplay tied to it, but obviously that's backlog stuff. (I refrained from explicit :18months: jokes.)
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I really wish there was a way to opt in on this. I rather enjoy having a shiny standing to show off.
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On the one hand, meh, because what happens in space actually happens.
On the other, I've seen it happen more than once that standings evidence of what happens in space is disregarded by RPers - and often justifiably. Is the suicide ganker who rats a lot to keep sec status up really a law abiding citizen, for example. Do we have to RP that our Republic characters trust the former Amarr militia who joins a Minmatar FW corp and orbits buttons to raise standings?
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Finally, all my supposedly covert missions aren't stored and broadcasted anymore to some idiotic Concord central database.
Yes, the Ministry of Internal Order is telling me you've worked for them a lot, even what agents you have had close contact with. Yeah, I know the Amarr Empire hates my guts, but fortunately they are so smart as to make public all the work their operatives do for them.
Also, less lag loading character info.
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So put it in your bio! :)
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So put it in your bio! :)
Not enough bio length for what I want there now if ccp extended the bio space...then yes.
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I think I'm going to roll with keeping most biographical stuff in a webpage and linking to it from the IG bio. Seems like the best compromise.
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(I refrained from explicit :18months: jokes.)
Barely. :P
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It's not my fault that CCP removes stuff with the excuse "well maybe someday we'll put it back with some gameplay around it". It takes a wee bit more than that to placate somebody with established BVS.
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I personnaly don't care a lot if it hampers (barely) intel, because its logical to keep confidential standings with our agents.
What annoys me is 2 things :
- The suppression of the standing list between factions. It was very usefull to see how much faction standing you gain/loss each time you get a standing gain/loss with the main faction (for those who do not know, gaining for example +1.0 with Amarr Empire means that you will get +0.9 with Ammatar, +0.6 with Caldari, etc, because thats their standings between each other, and it works also for the negative standings).
- The impossibility for a corp CEO to get access to a member standings, for obvious reasons.
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(1) EVE inter-faction standings are available (http://www.newedenlibrary.net/eon/faction_standings.shtml) online.
(2) A CEO (and actually anyone in a corp) can still check anyone in their corp through the corp interface: look at the composite standings, right-click and show the component standings, there you go.
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- The impossibility for a corp CEO to get access to a member standings, for obvious reasons.
Also, the API should still contain standings values as these would presumably remain visible to the character him/herself. There are even ways to view API-derived information without having to share your API, which people are sometimes uncomfortable doing. Federal Robotics currently uses http://eveboard.com/ character sheets for this purpose.
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(1) EVE inter-faction standings are available (http://www.newedenlibrary.net/eon/faction_standings.shtml) online.
(2) A CEO (and actually anyone in a corp) can still check anyone in their corp through the corp interface: look at the composite standings, right-click and show the component standings, there you go.
Mh yes, this is true for 1). Though I don't understand what you mean with 2) ?
For Ken, yes, API is a way to do it, though if players have now to resort to that it is a little fail imo. They are basically suppressing usefull tools from their game and making us use more and more metagaming stuff like API checks, etc.
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I can see why they are doing this. I've had several near-death experiences while scouting due to the game freezing up. However, I've never purposely looked at a character's corp standings. It only comes up after I've gone to look at the member corps in an alliance. Subsequently, the next character page I open up goes to the standings tab and may cause lag. I think that is a problem that could have been easily fixed by having the bio show up first whenever you open up a character page, not by removing corp standings which some of us do care about.
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Lyn, I mean that for players in your corp, you can still see their standings. Go to your corp's Standings page, choose a faction or corp, right click on it and Show Components. You'll see the standings of that faction or corp to every one of your corp members.
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Ok, nice then. Even if you are not director ?
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As long as you are in the corp.
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A document representing submission to the authority of the Amarrian Empress, Jamyl Sarum.
Notably, the language surrounding capsuleer fealty has been significantly watered down, revealing that even the Amarr Empire is willing to acknowledge the reality of capsuleer freedom and autonomy.
is the showinfo description of an item called "Token Of Submission", from the introductory mission on Duplicity test server atm.
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Tribal sponsorhip is a longstanding tradition within the Minmatar Republic. Typically sponsorship is sought by an individual before embarking on a journey away from their tribe, or as part of a corporation's employment process. After a sometimes lengthy approval process, a Minmatar is then able to proceed with the full support of their tribal peers.
Typically, a citizen of the Republic will seek sponsorship from only their family tribe, and this is usually sufficient to last their lifetime, barring any dramatic changes. In some rare circumstances, sponsorship is granted from all of the seven tribes to particularly promising individuals.
In the unique case of the capsuleers, the seven tribes of the Republic have agreed to blanket-issue sponsorships as an attempt to encourage loyalty and cooperation.
is an item called "Tribal Sponsorship"
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These documents clear the holder from numerous by-laws and responsibilities within the Caldari State and abroad.
They are issued to capsuleers, who typically operate above the law and are accountable to few people. All this document does is formalize that reality, and as such, is entirely redundant and pointless.
The hypercapitalist corporate state of the Caldari is awash with these sorts of documents, however, and the tendency towards needless bureaucracy is simply a part of corporate life.
Clearance Documents
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This document is issued to all graduate capsuleers, regardless of their ethnicity or background.
In the document, various fundamental human rights are outlined and defended, including the freedom to travel, freedom to work for a corporation of one's choosing, and freedom of speech within Gallente Federation borders.
The document is somewhat redundant for capsuleers, who enjoy these freedoms and others even greater. Despite this obvious fact, the Federation authorities have chosen to issue the license all the same, viewing it as a symbolic gesture, and a reminder of the Federation's core values.
Freedom of Operation License