Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 22 Apr 2011, 06:13
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I think a major problem with EVE RP, or at least shortcoming, is the fact that "visualization" is troublesome. I'm talking about the designs of the four empires, in terms of station and ship design, and how this transfers planetside...the only piece of reference we have right now is the chron art...let's take DUST. The two trailers we have of DUST look absolutely generic sci-fi. So far, we've seen Gallente and Caldari assets, but they are pretty much indistinguishable, and all look Caldari by virtue of being black/dark. I've mentioned this before, but hopefully this is improved. In fiction, Gallentean cities are described as crystalline, with spires and multi-tiered cities...well okay...but this (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=25-12-08-a) and this (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=27-03-08) look pretty generic to me. Incarna will fix this, hopefully, but what we need, I think, is the ability to actually SEE things go down. Right now, everything feels generic post-contemporary sci-fi outside of space.
How about this for visualization?
Gallente = Mass Effect
Caldari = Starship Troopers (1997 film)
Amarr = Dune
Minmatar = Er, well, I'm sure one can pick something :3
I suppose it's a question of imagination, but not everyone is going to want to really wrack their heads to provide a decent "image" of something. Gallentean design may be similar to utopian sci-fi anime/manga, in the sense of cleaniliness and utopian motifs...like the cities in Appleseed
[spoiler](http://www.ipicstorage.com/wp-content/uploads/appleseed-full-city-view-olymius-birds-eye-view-wallpaper.jpg)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/images/appleseed2004-11.jpg)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://www.ipicstorage.com/wp-content/uploads/appleseed-city-olympius-building-wallpaper-1024x576.png)[/spoiler]
Here, we have an almost indisputable example of how a Gallentean city may very well look like. The issue is that people like CCP Abraxas will describe a Gallentean city as so, clean and pristine, while another fiction writer will hedge in generic industrial stuff, ignoring the biomechanical look of Gallentean starships. Let's hear stuff about drones and automation, make the Gallenteans attractive in this regard. Without visualization, all we're left to is walls of text, and right now, all we got is RL notions of democracy.
This applies to all factions, or maybe it's just me. If we've given more eyecandy, we can better visualize RP and the world we want to immerse ourselves in.
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If you look up Antifan's stuff, it's pretty awesome.
I've always visualised Andreus' home city of Calluya, Intaki Prime, to look like this:
[spoiler](http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs5/i/2004/333/7/a/BASILICA_by_ANTIFAN_REAL.jpg)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs25/f/2008/035/2/4/Bold_Visions___City_Docks_by_ANTIFAN_REAL.jpg)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs18/f/2007/177/f/2/Speedpaint___Future_City_by_ANTIFAN_REAL.jpg)[/spoiler]
Here's a fact that may interest you: Andreus hasn't spent more than six hours in the city of his birth since he was 12 years old.
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The first thing that came to my mind were the official CCP trailers.
The Dust 514 trailer from a couple of years ago (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzVjggarRns&feature=channel_video_title) for example gives some sneaky peaks into an Intaki city district for example.
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The first thing that came to my mind were the official CCP trailers.
The Dust 514 trailer from a couple of years ago (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzVjggarRns&feature=channel_video_title) for example gives some sneaky peaks into an Intaki city district for example.
That's what I mean. It looks so damned generic that it might as well be Caldari or Minmatar...Intaki cities are described as flat-roofed, composed of wood and stone in other sources, correct?
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Does Tikraul District on Intaki V have a major city? I'm guessing by "district" they mean the area of the planet they are fighting in.
The setting in the trailer looks to be an industrial area somewhere on the outskirts. Take it from me, industrial areas all look the same. :)
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How about this for visualization?
Gallente = Mass Effect
Caldari = Starship Troopers (1997 film)
Amarr = Dune
Minmatar = Er, well, I'm sure one can pick something :3
[spoiler](http://www.ipicstorage.com/wp-content/uploads/appleseed-full-city-view-olymius-birds-eye-view-wallpaper.jpg)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/images/appleseed2004-11.jpg)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://www.ipicstorage.com/wp-content/uploads/appleseed-city-olympius-building-wallpaper-1024x576.png)[/spoiler]
For Caldari, how about Blade Runner:
(http://www.scene-stealers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/blade-runner-los-angeles-752153.jpg)
or the hive industrial cities in Warhammer 40K:
I'm guessing you are referring to Arrakis from the miniseries for Amarr:
(http://www.sadgeezer.com/Legacy/gallery/Dune/dune_palace.jpg)
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A lot of my thoughts aesthetics were reflected in my choices for these images (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1523.0).
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I could envision the Minmatar cities to be something like Kuzutetsu from Gunnm,
[spoiler](http://bizarinconnu.free.fr/kuzutetsuNord.jpg)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://users.skynet.be/gunnmzone/Histoire/decharge.jpg)[/spoiler]
or maybe a desert city a'la Hokuto no Ken,
[spoiler](http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2010/09/north_star_date.jpg)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://rq87.flyingomelette.com/Hokuto/HNK1/14/12.jpg)[/spoiler]
or even something in the style of Fallout series,
[spoiler](http://www.officialpsds.com/images/stocks/fallout-city-stock1829-large.png)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/1/11/Megaton_inside.jpg)[/spoiler]
[spoiler](http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae198/Sir_Nerdlaroid/fallout3rivetcity.jpg)[/spoiler]
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I was actually going to suggest Blade Runner for some minmatar cities. Overcrowded and dirty. But could totally be a gallentean or caldari underground district as well.
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Ooooh hooo hooo, Seriphyn stole what I said earlier today on Steam to him regarding which media IP fit with each race. :evil:
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Seriously, the Minmatar are not, like, living in ruins and shacks all over the place. It's neither Fallout nor Mad Max. Pator is not, generally speaking, a post-apocalyptic wasteland.
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Ultimately, I don't think it does the setting justice to lump these massive interstellar civilizations into one aesthetic. Things vary from planet to planet, and even continent to continent. Perfectly reasonable for there to be a Gallentean city out there that's all dull and utilitarian or to have a Caldari city made of shining and gleaming curves.
Seriphyn stole what I said
Did you mention to him that you felt your comments were intellectual property of some kind?
Seriously, the Minmatar are not, like, living in ruins and shacks all over the place. It's neither Fallout nor Mad Max. Pator is not, generally speaking, a post-apocalyptic wasteland.
While I wholeheartedly agree, I won't be shocked to see Dust 514 Minmatar architecture that fits precisely that motif.
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Seriously, the Minmatar are not, like, living in ruins and shacks all over the place. It's neither Fallout nor Mad Max. Pator is not, generally speaking, a post-apocalyptic wasteland.
Okay, if you say so. I find these frugal designs kind of cool but I guess it's realistic that few cultures would actually seek to build unpolished structures.
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There's a difference between unpolished ("it works and that will have to do") and living in decrepit ruins.
I don't doubt that Minmatar architecture is highly functional and that they find ingenious ways of reusing materials. But let's not extend that to caricatures... :)
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Someday I'll have to post a long, drawn out rant on world building and the need and/or reasoning for concentric circles in EVE planetary art assets. ;)
Needless to say, while I understand the need for "OMGSKYSCRAPERS!" in sci-fi art, the realities of it would be an interesting case study in crisis management.
However, the short version; you need specific ground conditions in order to make big, tall buildings. Seeing as how all worlds in EVE were colonized instead of having native populations, the colonists would have gathered around spaceports; for this reason, you'd have them on prime land, with a population expanding outwards. Think of the logistics of planetary interaction; how do most people organize their colonies? Generally speaking, in concentric circles, branching out to resources as needed, with the spaceport/hq in the center. It's the most efficient way to do it (aside from dusting off and nuking the site from orbit to make sure. :P )
In short, I'm not a big fan of the "arcology" style of buildings in sci-fi settings. Maybe around spaceports, but that's stretching it. I'm far more of a realist, and as human nature focuses on short term benefits as opposed to long term resource planning, the easiest way to expand a city would be how it is now; resource exploitation and expansion. Everything in EVE that I've seen supports this, right down to planetary art assets.
Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying the images you've shown contradict my statements. On the contrary, I think they are wonderful inspiration. I'm just looking at this from the perspective of implementing these ideas into a fictional background.
Ultimately, I don't think it does the setting justice to lump these massive interstellar civilizations into one aesthetic. Things vary from planet to planet, and even continent to continent. Perfectly reasonable for there to be a Gallentean city out there that's all dull and utilitarian or to have a Caldari city made of shining and gleaming curves.
I agree. 100%. A unified design aesthetic would be very, very hard to implement for one simple reason; it's expensive to import building materials, so the local builders would be limited (almost exclusively) to available materials. There would be some general design principles followed, and the degree to which these principles would be followed would vary based on a multitude of other factors.
Again, not saying any of this is wrong, simply pointing out some considerations. :)
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Seeing as how all worlds in EVE were colonized instead of having native populations...
To be fair, a number of those were colonized fifteen thousand years ago.
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One building style has been explicitly named for the Minmatar: Dam-Torsad brutalism. Apparently, on some worlds, the (now well over hundred years old) Amarr-built buildings are still being used. For the reference, brutalism is the building style using forms made out of concrete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture)). Amarr would combine this with their knack for building intimidating and/or grand buildings, and the result is a typical Minmatar apartment block.
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Interesting, that reminds me of some of what I saw in Caracas several years back.
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I would hate to live in a Gallente city build on one of their desert colonies, not with all that glass and chrome burning your eyes in the scorching heat ;)
I agree with Ken, in that it wont be possible to lump the four nations into four neat architectural styles, but I do admit that whatever style a particular planet has will most probably be grounded in a common origin tied to the needs of the populace on their world of origin.
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One building style has been explicitly named for the Minmatar: Dam-Torsad brutalism. Apparently, on some worlds, the (now well over hundred years old) Amarr-built buildings are still being used. For the reference, brutalism is the building style using forms made out of concrete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture)). Amarr would combine this with their knack for building intimidating and/or grand buildings, and the result is a typical Minmatar apartment block.
Uh, you find this (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dam-Torsad_%28Chronicle%29) and this (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Chained_to_the_Sky_%28Chronicle%29) béton brut ? Of course it is only Dam Torsad (probalby one of the only well depicted Eve city), but I have a lot of difficulties to imagine amarrian structures to be of brutalist architecture. Caldari ? Maybe more, even if they do not use concrete everywhere I believe.
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One thing that bothers me so damn much right now is that I once had a picture on my PC that made a wonderful depiction of Dam-Torsad, likely fan-art of official art that was not on their site. I spent two hours yesterday trying fruitlessly to find it, no luck. It's a much better picture than the old one from the Dam-Torsad cron, and is imho the obvious source for the later skyscraper picture in chained to the sky.
It would offer not only a good idea of how most Amarrian cities might be built, (Dam-Torsad is the capital city of the capital world, so with such prestige it's obvious the rought style at the least would be copied as much as possible on as many worlds and locations as able. Indeed much of their space-based habitats and some space-ship designs carry elements of it) but also give one a rough idea how some Minmatar bastardised cities might appear. If we can assume that atl some areas of Pator have simmilar conditions to Athra, there might well be several buildings left in use that the Amarr built. Hey, if they work, why knock em over out of simple spite?
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Crate_of_Architectural-Quality_Plagioclase_Paneling
"Minmatar architecture traditionally favors modular geometric structures and open spaces which allow breezes to flow from room to room. There is a traditional preference for working with exposed natural stone and wood, though recent trends have leaned towards natural surfaces bonded to structural reinforced concrete, stretching resources while still allowing for an attractive appearance. Compressed asteroid ore interior panels are becoming more popular for higher-class residences and for buildings constructed on mineral-poor worlds."
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In the show Firefly, those who didn't want to live in Alliance space made a living in colonies on the outskirts of the galaxy. The technology was limited.
In EVE, although it's 20,000 years into the future, most technology that we see is what we may see in 2300 or so, if current tech continues its pace. The Minmatar Republic, being a previously enslaved race, isn't as far up as the other empires might be in technology, so they must make do with that works best. I could imagine big cities with skyscrapers, but I don't think anything like this (unless it was a dying colony) would be considered:
(http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/1/11/Megaton_inside.jpg)
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I wouldn't be surprised if Minmatar slums look like that, or morelikely nullsec colonial slums.
That's the thing with EVE. people say it's "20,000 years in the future", which it is, but I wouldn't put the technology further than 3000. The domestic technology is like 2050-2100 too, IMO.
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In the show Firefly, those who didn't want to live in Alliance space made a living in colonies on the outskirts of the galaxy. The technology was limited.
In EVE, although it's 20,000 years into the future, most technology that we see is what we may see in 2300 or so, if current tech continues its pace. The Minmatar Republic, being a previously enslaved race, isn't as far up as the other empires might be in technology, so they must make do with that works best. I could imagine big cities with skyscrapers, but I don't think anything like this (unless it was a dying colony) would be considered:
(http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/1/11/Megaton_inside.jpg)
I could see cities in Curse looking like that, with slums clinging to the sides of mine shafts, and crowding around factories, built in ravines in the middle of growing land, wherever people can be squeezed in to maximize their usefulness without wasting space.
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Maybe the right question is not "What architectural styles prevail in the New Eden factions?" but "What do the inhabitants of New Eden's factions need from their architecture?"
Proper worldbuilding in a setting where more or less normal human beings populate the vast majority of the universe's habitable spaces should start from the ground up. What do the people on [Planet A] need from their surroundings to feel safe, comfortable, and fulfilled? The answers to that question will help build a picture of how said people would build their homes and cities under ideal conditions.
Next, of all possible resources (physical materials, technical knowledge, and wealth), what do the people of [Planet A] have to work with when building? The answers to that question will help us understand how said people would reconcile their ideals and dreams with the realities of their world in the creation of a plausible settlement/colony/city.
Of course, we do have a few examples from PF of how certain things have been built. Dam-Torsad, for example, or the Crystal Boulevard in Caille stand out in my mind. In those cases, we have the final product and can analyze it to trace backward to answers that will help illustrate the qualities and character of the people who live(d) there. Perhaps, however, using major central municipalities and capitals like Dam-Torsad is misguided as the prevailing realities of life in much of the Amarr Empire, for instance, is almost certainly very different from that which prevails on the homeworld. If nothing else, of course, the PF on architecture that does exists can provide insight on broader cultural currents if not necessarily details on what the average dormitory looks like on a colony in Anohel or Agoze or wherever.
Reconciling this view with the reality of the game world, I think only in cases where pre-fabricated structures or pre-programmed and standardized construction technologies are feasible and economical will there be much widespread copying of architecture. In at least one case in New Eden this is both feasible and economical--starship and space station design.